Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: TSS/360 Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 93 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:31:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.211.247.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1006709497 63.211.247.70 (Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:31:37 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:31:37 PST X-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:27:21 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95090 ehs suggested a repost here ... possibly comparing the size of the Multics & TSS/360 organizations. IBM had bid 360/67 for multics (maybe still 360/62 at that time before models 60, 62, 70, got renamed 65, 67, & 75 because of the faster memory technology) and cambridge (2nd & 4th floor, 545 tech. sq) had planned to play a significant part in that activity. Loosing the bid, IBM created a group in mohansic for TSS/360, a virtual memory operating system that would run on the 360/67. This would have been sometime '66. I think by '68, the mohansic organization was up to somewhere in the 1000-1200 headcount range working on TSS/360. This continued up through the '70s although TSS was "decommitted" (it wasn't actually canceled, but the group was reduced to possibly 20-30 head-count responsible for supporting the dozen or so major customers). Later in the '70s & early '80s, TSS(/370) saw some significant re-vitalization from AT&T and bell-labs .... using it as sort-of a microkernel for Unix running on mainframes. During this period, the cambridge group at the 4th floor started the virtual machine project; first with CP/40 and CMS i.e., custom, relocation hardware was added to a 360/40 and the virtual machine monitor was developed while the user environment "CMS" was being developed in parallel to "run" in a virtual machine. Finally a 360/67 became available in Cambridge and the CP/40 monitor was ported to 360/67 (changing its name to CP/67). I would estimate that by '70 or '71 3-4 times as many 360/67s were running CP/67 as was running TSS/360. The CP/67 group was split off from the scientific center, eventually taking over the 3rd floor and absorbing most of the IBM Boston Programming Center (and many of the people that had worked on CPS ... a non-virtual-memory, 360-based "conversational programming system" as well as jean sammet and some misc. other people). The group/product was renamed VM/370 for the port/introduction of virtual memory on the 370 line of computers. Eventually, the group was bursting at the seams in 545 tech. sq and was relocated to a recently vacated SBS building in burlington mall (SBS been turned over/sold to CDC as part of gov. settlement of ibm getting out of service bureau business). Later in the '70s, when the burlington mall group was shutdown (the group had grown to possible 200 or so by that time) and all the people were told to move to POK to work on the VMTOOL ... a significant number left IBM (especially a lot of the CMS developers) and went to work for DEC on VMS (this was one of those periods when there wasn't going to be anymore VM/370 releases and all the people were needed to support the "internal-only" VMTOOL ... a virtual machine monitor tool that was dedicaetd to MVS/XA development). a lot of this is covered in much more detail (including misc & sundry CTSS happenings) in Melinda's history paper at: http://pucc.princeton.edu/~melinda/ random refs/extracts: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#10 OS with no distinction between RAM a http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#13 S/360 operating systems geneaology http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#126 Dispute about Internet's origins http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#142 OS/360 (and descendents) VM system? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#177 S/360 history http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#237 I can't believe this newsgroup still exists. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#1 Computer of the century http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#43 Historically important UNIX or computer things..... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#52 Correct usage of "Image" ??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#81 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#82 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#89 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#47 Charging for time-share CPU time http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#53 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#59 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#78 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#2 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#21 First OS? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#69 line length (was Re: Babble from "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#9 VM: checking some myths. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#10 VM: checking some myths. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#46 Whom Do Programmers Admire Now??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#57 Whom Do Programmers Admire Now??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#32 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#34 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#39 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#44 Call for folklore - was Re: So it's cyclical. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:18:21 -0500 Organization: Multicians Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3C024F2D.1080505@multicians.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.0a.01.f3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 26 Nov 2001 14:13:38 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95110 Lynn's post sure brings back memories of the 60s. I moved from Project MAC to the MIT Comp Center about 1969, continuing to work on Multics but also taking on responsibility for the declining CTSS and the 360/67 that the MIT Urban Systems Lab had obtained, run for a year, and then turned over to the Center. So I got to meet and work with some of the CP/CMS developers on the third floor of Tech Square, and heard presentations about TSS/360 at IBM SHARE meetings. More pointers: CTSS http://www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html CP/CMS http://www.multicians.org/thvv/360-67.html ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:53:07 -0500 Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c026564$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1006789988 204.250.0.238 (26 Nov 2001 10:53:08 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95099 "Anne & Lynn Wheeler" wrote in message news:u7kserc4j.fsf_-_@earthlink.net... > > ehs suggested a repost here ... possibly comparing the size of the > Multics & TSS/360 organizations. It's an OT remark for this newgroup, but it sure would be nice if a copy of TSS/360 or CP/67 would surface for use with the Hercules emulator... -dq ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3C024F2D.1080505@multicians.org> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:31:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.13.149 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1006795899 209.245.13.149 (Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:31:39 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:31:39 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:27:23 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95113 Tom Van Vleck writes: > Lynn's post sure brings back memories of the 60s. > I moved from Project MAC to the MIT Comp Center > about 1969, continuing to work on Multics but also > taking on responsibility for the declining CTSS and > the 360/67 that the MIT Urban Systems Lab had obtained, > run for a year, and then turned over to the Center. > So I got to meet and work with some of the CP/CMS > developers on the third floor of Tech Square, and > heard presentations about TSS/360 at IBM SHARE meetings. in terms of group size ... the TSS/360 group had grown to about 1000-1200 in the late '60s ... while the CP/40,CP/67,CMS group (within the science center at 545 tech sq) had grown to 14 by the start of 1970 (CSC on about 1/2 the 4th floor, around 35 people total, with the machine room on about 1/2 of the 2nd floor). The CP/67 group grew quickly during 70/71 from 14 to maybe 60(?) taking over 3/4ths of the 3rd floor, absorbing the boston programming center, etc (and changed its name to vm/370 officially when virtual memory was finally announced for 370 machines). As it was bursting at the seams on the 3rd floor, the group moved out to the vacated (ibm) service bureau building in burlington mall where the group grew to 200 or so people until '76 when it was shutdown and moved to POK. The VM/370 group at its peak in the '70s with thousands of installations was possibly 1/6th the size of the tss/360 group at its peak (with its dozen installations). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: John Alvord Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:22:01 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3of60uke5ht0mu68p98lm53pv245vhpd97@4ax.com> References: <3C01D968.8422E8A7@start.com.au> <3C01E09E.3050004@beagle-ears.com> <1006767009.663565@dns2.serv.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95276 On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:31:37 GMT, in alt.folklore.computers you wrote: > >ehs suggested a repost here ... possibly comparing the size of the >Multics & TSS/360 organizations. > >IBM had bid 360/67 for multics (maybe still 360/62 at that time before >models 60, 62, 70, got renamed 65, 67, & 75 because of the faster >memory technology) and cambridge (2nd & 4th floor, 545 tech. sq) had >planned to play a significant part in that activity. > >Loosing the bid, IBM created a group in mohansic for TSS/360, a >virtual memory operating system that would run on the 360/67. This >would have been sometime '66. I think by '68, the mohansic >organization was up to somewhere in the 1000-1200 headcount range >working on TSS/360. This continued up through the '70s although TSS >was "decommitted" (it wasn't actually canceled, but the group was >reduced to possibly 20-30 head-count responsible for supporting the >dozen or so major customers). I worked for IBM 78-83. In 78-79 I visited the group in Texas (Irving??) which was still supporting TSS. I think there were still a dozen installations at that point. I remember one of them telling me how great the performance was when they got up to 16meg 168s and using 2305 drums for paging. The source code was truely fine assembler, very nice quality. The purpose of the visit was to make contacts. There was a project to rewrite VM/370 (jokingly called ZM/XB) and it was thought that TSS might serve as a base for that effort. TSS was like Multics in being architected as a three-level system, user/supervisor/kernel was they way I remember it. [The ia386 architecture has 4 ring levels, a ghostlike reflection of the Multics influence.] This was one of many thoughts about the future of VM. After ZM/XB imploded through excited over-management [Lynn W. played a background part in killing it], Pat Ryall (a work buddy now at Tandem/Compaq/HP??) implemented a neat experiment. He took the XT/370 CP (a PL/S sicko) and hosted it on the current TSS kernel with a normal VM/SP CMS running as the top level. All running under VM, of course. The stuff actually worked! A close look at the XT/370 source revealed one good reason for OCO - sh*tty code no one would ever want to let a customer see!). john alvord ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3C01D968.8422E8A7@start.com.au> <3C01E09E.3050004@beagle-ears.com> <1006767009.663565@dns2.serv.net> <3of60uke5ht0mu68p98lm53pv245vhpd97@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 87 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:56:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.78.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1006872978 209.244.78.87 (Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:56:18 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:56:18 PST X-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:51:57 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95231 John Alvord writes: > The purpose of the visit was to make contacts. There was a project to > rewrite VM/370 (jokingly called ZM/XB) and it was thought that TSS > might serve as a base for that effort. TSS was like Multics in being > architected as a three-level system, user/supervisor/kernel was they > way I remember it. [The ia386 architecture has 4 ring levels, a > ghostlike reflection of the Multics influence.] This was one of many > thoughts about the future of VM. some of the early TSS analysis for ZM/XB that I worked on with Ed Lassettre. The 2nd meeting of the "ZM" project (march '83) was held in Kingston at an off-site classroom. The people that operated the facility were suppose to have scheduled the "VM" meeting with signs indicating the appropriate room. Somehow that was garbled and there were signs up saying "ZM". TSS versis VM/SP TSS VM/SP modules 109 261 LOC 51k 232k (LOC .. lines of code) as per prior comments, while the CP/67-VM/370 started out as compact micro-kernel ... over a 15 year period a lot of traditional operating system people (not trained in micro-kernel principles) made up the bulk of the people working on VM & CMS (and since it was so easy to add this thing or that thing to a well-designed micro-kernel ... in the changes went ... unfortunately after 15 years of such activity, it was no longer compact). Some SWAG analysis. Required TSS modifications * Removing TAM2 (extended terminal support) * VMC Support - ... KLOC & ... modules hit? - SIE & MAS dependencies * GTF Follow-on - hardware/software trade-offs - Extended Store * Close Coupling - shared memory - single system image * Functional Processors Total estimated KLOC is ???at least 30 percent of base??? and at least some modification to all modules. TSS Problems * Scheduling of closely coupled, asynchronous virtual machines (and/or address spaces). - (this is a VM/SP problem also). * Running supervisor in translate mode. * Current type one documentation ======================================================== TSS had been decommited and only supported by a small, focused group for ten years at this time (some things didn't get done just because they were lower priority and not enough people to work on them). misc. past references to TSS analysis http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#12 360 "OS" & "TSS" assemblers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#1 pathlengths http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question other recent tss postings: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#34 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#39 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#5 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#6 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#7 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#8 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#9 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#11 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#17 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#49 TSS/360 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: jraben@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:45:54 GMT Reply-To: jraben@cascinc.com Message-ID: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.29.33.242 X-Trace: 28 Nov 2001 12:46:11 -0500, 216.29.33.242 Organization: NetSet Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nntp.abs.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!athena.netset.com!216.29.33.242 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95359 how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? The combination ran on many univerity machines. Jeff and stir with a Runcible spoon... ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: 28 Nov 2001 13:59:47 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 65 Sender: shw5@cornell.invalid (on ralph.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.graphics.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1006973999 13491 128.84.247.95 (28 Nov 2001 18:59:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2001 18:59:59 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95355 jraben@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes: > how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) > and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? > > The combination ran on many univerity machines. I think you mean UMMPS (the University of Michigan Multiprogramming System), the substrate for MTS. UMMPS may have been originally based on something from Lincoln Labs. I think the total count of installations never grew beyond about ten. But anyway, it's an interesting part of the whole story. As I understand it (based on tales and talks from the Michigan side of things), it all starts with IBM's unsuccessful bid on the Multics hardware. This was deemed, in retrospect, a Bad Thing, and IBM became rather more cooperative with universities, including Michigan. The specified machine was known as the 360/65M ("M" for "Michigan"), and seen as a one-off device to save prestige. But the IBM view of the market changed (or at least politics within IBM changed), and it soon became the 360/67, a full-fledged production model, and TSS/360 was to be written to run on it to provide full virtual-memory time sharing. As Lynn Wheeler has described, a large team was put together. What wasn't mentioned was how late it all was. Michigan got a 360/50, I believe, as a stopgap, and MTS was originally written as a toy time-sharing system for that. The '67 arrived in, aptly enough, 1967, but with no OS. The staff grew tired of running in Model 65 mode, and enhanced MTS to use the VM hardware on the '67. This was all a 2-person effort, or near it. They stole various compilers and utilities from OS/360 and hacked them to run on MTS, put together a simple file system, etc. By the time TSS/360 arrived, it was deemed to be not worth the bother, and MTS continued as the OS for academic computing at Michigan. It ran on the 360/67 and was modified for symmetric multiprocessing when that machine was upgraded with a second processor. Later it was ported to a 370/168 as an interim measure, then the first Amdahl 470/V6. It continued on various big IBM (and compatible) hardware until about 1995. Other universities running MTS included Wayne State (in Detroit), the University of British Columbia, and the University of Grenoble, if memory serves. The executive summary would be that it was a much less ambitious project than Multics (or TSS/360), and probably succeeded because of that. For example, it lacked a tree directory structure, E-mail, and shared files for several years; they were added later. But then, they had a system in production in May, 1967. Another element of its success was shared with Multics, CP/67, and Unix: the developers were actually running an installation with real users. The relationship with IBM didn't remain that close; while Michigan specified quite a bit of what became the 360/67, the 370's ignored certain suggestions from that quarter. For more details, see . -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 101 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:16:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.15.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1006982178 209.245.15.217 (Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:16:18 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:16:18 PST X-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:16:20 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95425 jraben@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes: > how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) > and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? > > The combination ran on many univerity machines. > > Jeff > and stir with a Runcible spoon... note that LLMPS was mostly simple (ibm/360) multitasker with a number of simple unit-record and tape utilities (card->tape, print tape, copy tape, punch cards, etc). It was a contributed Share program ... I still have the LLMPS manual in a box someplace. The (strong) rumor is that MTS started off using the LLMPS multitasker for the original base for developing MTS ... Michigan Terminal System, an interactive, virtual memory system for the 360/67 ... offering a lot of vanilla os/360 facilities in a interactive, online environment. Lincolm Labs had a duplex '67 and was the first installation to get CP/67 installed from the Cambridge Science Center (sometime in '67). The university that I was at was the 2nd installation (after lincoln) ... getting CP/67 installed the last week in Jan. 1968. For the 360/67 there were (at least) virtual memory, paging systems TSS/360 CP/67 MTS There was also a virtual memory, non-paging hack done to OS/360 MVT13 running on a pair of 360/67s at Boeing Huntsville. OS/360 for long running applications could get into severe storage fragmentation. Boeing Huntsville ran a number of long-running 2250 (large vector display, used for CAD design and other) applications that would eventually result in severe OS/360 storage fragmentation. The virtual memory, non-paging hack to MVT13 was to help medicate storage fragmentation problems (i.e. use virtual memory to be able to provide something that looked like contiguous storage regions for each application). There was also a special tri-plex, fully redundant 360/67 for some real-time gov. project being done by Lockheed ... which was writing their own special code (I don't know much about this one). In the '60s, there were also at least two service bureau spin-offs using CP/67, one was NCSS in stamford, conn. and the other was IDC (a number of lincoln labs. people) out in waltham. In the middle of June, '68 Cambridge Science Center was holding a one week CP/67 class for prospective & current customers) at a location in Beverly Hills that the University sent me to. The week (possibly friday) the class was to start, several of the people resigned from CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the '70s, NCSS may have also installed a Multics system. Dec. '68 or Jan. '69, Boeing created Boeing Computer Services with the idea of moving all of their commerical dataprocessing into BCS and be able to start operating it as a profit center (as opposed to cost center). During '69, spring break, IBM talked me into giving a one week computer class to the BCS technical staff (that had been integrated into BCS up to that point). About that time they moved the Boeing Huntsville 360/67s to Seattle. Boeing eventually had quite a few 360/67s running CP/67. misc. MTS & LLMPS postings from the past: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15 unit record & other controllers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#23 MTS & LLMPS? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#25 MTS & LLMPS? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#26 MTS & LLMPS? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#15 S/360 operating systems geneaology http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#174 S/360 history http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#89 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#91 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#44 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#52 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#0 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#2 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#13 High Level Language Systems was Re: computer books/authors (Re: FA: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#24 "Hollerith" card code to EBCDIC conversion http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#71 IBM 9020 FAA/ATC Systems from 1960's http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#30 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#34 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#27 Is anybody out there still writting BAL 370. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#5 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#9 mainframe question misc. bcs postings http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#32 Roads as Runways Was: Re: BA Solve http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#130 early hardware http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#66 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#8 "HAL's Legacy and the Vision of 2001: A Space Odyssey" http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#9 "HAL's Legacy and the Vision of 2001: A Space Odyssey" http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#23 Linux IA-64 interrupts [was Re: Itanium benchmarks ...] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#56 YKYBHTLW.... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#32 mainframe question -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: 28 Nov 2001 16:27:51 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 51 Sender: shw5@cornell.invalid (on ralph.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.graphics.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1006982882 24193 128.84.247.95 (28 Nov 2001 21:28:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2001 21:28:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95447 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > jraben@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes: > > > how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) > > and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? > > > > The combination ran on many univerity machines. > > > > Jeff > > and stir with a Runcible spoon... > > note that LLMPS was mostly simple (ibm/360) multitasker with a number > of simple unit-record and tape utilities (card->tape, print tape, copy > tape, punch cards, etc). It was a contributed Share program ... I > still have the LLMPS manual in a box someplace. > > The (strong) rumor is that MTS started off using the LLMPS multitasker > for the original base for developing MTS ... Michigan Terminal System, > an interactive, virtual memory system for the 360/67 ... offering a > lot of vanilla os/360 facilities in a interactive, online environment. That's really selling MTS short. Its user interface resembled OS not at all, file structures were totally different, there was no linker, etc. What did happen was that various useful OS packages were ported: the level G and H FORTRAN compilers and APL\360, to my knowledge. I suppose many of the 3rd-party programs such as the Waterloo WATFOR/WATFIV FORTRAN environment, PL/C, and Algol W were ported from OS as well. This only made sense, as the development team was always tiny by IBM standards. But editors (including the full-screen CRT editor) and many other things were home-grown for MTS. I especially remember Interactive Fortran, a source-level interactive development environment circa 1975. Actually, I rather liked the MTS file system. There were two basic kinds of files: sequential and line-number files. The latter were the norm, and allowed you to access each line randomly and alter it at will. Because of this, the editor had no notion of loading or saving files; you just made alterations directly to the disk image, with a maximum of a single line at risk. -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:59:34 -0500 Organization: Multicians Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3C056C56.3070809@multicians.org> References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.0a.03.af Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Nov 2001 22:54:58 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95402 Lynn Wheeler wrote: > I believe that sometime in the '70s, > NCSS may have also installed a Multics system. I don't believe this happened. I think there was a sales effort but no sale was made, alas. Some good folks were at NCSS. ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:03:36 -0500 Organization: Multicians Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3C056D48.8020408@multicians.org> References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.0a.03.af Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Nov 2001 22:59:00 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95401 Jeff Raben wrote: > how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) > and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? There is a little about MTS on my 360/67 page http://www.multicians.org/thvv/360-67.html and a link on the Multics links page to Susan Topol's article: http://www.itd.umich.edu/~doc/Digest/0596/feat02.html ###### From: Alistair Gale Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:28:23 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> <3C056D48.8020408@multicians.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-882.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95467 On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:03:36 -0500, Tom Van Vleck wrote: >Jeff Raben wrote: > >> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) >> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? > > >There is a little about MTS on my 360/67 page > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/360-67.html >and a link on the Multics links page to Susan Topol's article: > http://www.itd.umich.edu/~doc/Digest/0596/feat02.html > Where does MUSIC (McGill University System for Interactive Comnputing) fit in the history of IBM mainframe timesharing systems? I used it at the eponymous universtity in the early '80s to compile and run Watfiv, PL/I and to play Adventure. Was/is it used anywhere besides McGill? -- alistair ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> <3C056D48.8020408@multicians.org> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:00:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.78.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1007013659 209.244.78.53 (Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:00:59 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:00:59 PST X-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:01:01 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95415 Alistair Gale writes: > > Where does MUSIC (McGill University System for Interactive Comnputing) > fit in the history of IBM mainframe timesharing systems? I used it at > the eponymous universtity in the early '80s to compile and run Watfiv, > PL/I and to play Adventure. Was/is it used anywhere besides McGill? there were a number of non-virtual-memory interactive systems for standard 360s .... although MUSIC did see later wide deployment under vm/370. Most of them came up on standard ibm operating system for various specific functions ... but took over most of the scheduling and interactive services. CPS (converstational programming system) done by the IBM Boston Programming Center was one such. It supported "interactive" PL/I and there was even optional special 360/50 microcode speedup done for CPS. Another example is the original apl/360 (or apl\360) done by the ibm phili science center (cambridge modified it into cms/apl and rewrote the garbage collection for large workspaces and virtual memory). A much more "controlled" example would be CICS ... which is brought up ... loads a specific set of interactive environment and manages all of the resources dedicated to it (although the types of interactive services available tends to be more controlled and limited than some of the other interactive offerings). Early IMS also fell somewhat into similar category. Stanford had Wylbur which could somewhat be considered another example. Another was MUMPS (I think original done somewhere in the boston area, find it in the medical industry) ... which also eventually saw wide deployment under VM/370. Of course another is PARS ... or ACP ... airline control program which was the mainstay of the airline reservation world (reservation terminals, check-in counters, etc) ... now called TPF. It has somewhat branched out from just purely airline reservation systems into other industry reservation systems and some of the financial transaction networks. That is off the top of my head ... 60s/70s IBM mainframe, non-virtual-memory, interactive systems (or subsystems). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: TSS/360 Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:16:40 -0500 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: max1h-26.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1007018201 max1h-26.his.com (29 Nov 2001 02:16:41 -0500) Lines: 15 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!vienna7.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95411 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed > into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the '70s, > NCSS may have also installed a Multics system. I'm pretty sure that National CSS never bought Multics, but I know we marketed to them. Your summary also explains a few odd things I'd never understood, like why Wayne State became a Multics site. (Wayne State? where'd THEY come from?) Edward ###### Message-ID: <3C05F6AC.F87042C5@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> <3C056D48.8020408@multicians.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:37:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.246 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1007026658 12.90.167.246 (Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:37:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:37:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95380 Alistair Gale wrote: > ... snip ... > > Where does MUSIC (McGill University System for Interactive Comnputing) > fit in the history of IBM mainframe timesharing systems? I used it at > the eponymous universtity in the early '80s to compile and run Watfiv, > PL/I and to play Adventure. Was/is it used anywhere besides McGill? Never heard of it, but then that was long after my time there, which was primarily devoted to playing hearts and bridge in the student union. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: 29 Nov 2001 09:01:48 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 25 Sender: shw5@cornell.invalid (on ralph.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.graphics.cornell.edu X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1007042517 6975 128.84.247.95 (29 Nov 2001 14:01:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 2001 14:01:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95450 ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: > In article , > Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > > > CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed > > into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the '70s, > > NCSS may have also installed a Multics system. > > I'm pretty sure that National CSS never bought Multics, but I know we > marketed to them. Your summary also explains a few odd things I'd never > understood, like why Wayne State became a Multics site. (Wayne State? > where'd THEY come from?) Wayne State is a large university in inner-city Detroit, comparable in size to Michigan State and the University of Michigan, but lacking their visibility and prestige. Funny, they were an MTS site. And they're not listed on the Multicians Web site. Was there a typo above? -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: TSS/360 Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:38:58 -0500 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: max2h-236.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1007059139 max2h-236.his.com (29 Nov 2001 13:38:59 -0500) Lines: 43 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!vienna7.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95414 In article , westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: > ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: > > > In article , > > Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > > > > > CSC as part of forming the NCSS startup. As a result, I got pressed > > > into teaching a lot of the class. I believe that sometime in the '70s, > > > NCSS may have also installed a Multics system. > > > > I'm pretty sure that National CSS never bought Multics, but I know we > > marketed to them. Your summary also explains a few odd things I'd never > > understood, like why Wayne State became a Multics site. (Wayne State? > > where'd THEY come from?) > > Wayne State is a large university in inner-city Detroit, comparable in > size to Michigan State and the University of Michigan, but lacking > their visibility and prestige. > > Funny, they were an MTS site. And they're not listed on the Multicians > Web site. Was there a typo above? I /thought/ Wayne State was a site. At the time, after my first thought (above), all I could come up with as a rationale was that they were a vo-tech'y school near enough to Detroit to want a Multics system just like the car companies had. I'm fairly sure I've seen written indications of them being a site, but I definitely have none in my possession -- FSO could wander kind of all over the map when it came to Multics, but the Major Accounts Office for Automotive was /strictly/ hands-off and keep-your-distance. I'm not clear on why -- we swapped technical information with most of the sites, but almost none at all with the Detroit shops. And GM was the /only/ other site in the Multics world running production with multi-level security enabled. (CISL did, I know, but that was development.) Edward ###### From: Vincent Scarafino Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:29:37 -0500 Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3C068CA1.4389F32B@ford.com> References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 19.1.42.202 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD cf476 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,de,fr,ja,ko,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!enews.sgi.com!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws12.dearborn.ford.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95481 Oakland University was a Multics site. It's located just north of Detroit. Could it be Oakland you are thinking about? Wayne had MTS. Edward Rice wrote: ... > > Wayne State is a large university in inner-city Detroit, comparable in > > size to Michigan State and the University of Michigan, but lacking > > their visibility and prestige. > > > > Funny, they were an MTS site. And they're not listed on the Multicians > > Web site. Was there a typo above? > > I /thought/ Wayne State was a site. At the time, after my first thought > (above), all I could come up with as a rationale was that they were a > vo-tech'y school near enough to Detroit to want a Multics system just like > the car companies had. I'm fairly sure I've seen written indications of > them being a site, but I definitely have none in my possession -- FSO could > wander kind of all over the map when it came to Multics, but the Major > Accounts Office for Automotive was /strictly/ hands-off and > keep-your-distance. I'm not clear on why -- we swapped technical > information with most of the sites, but almost none at all with the Detroit > shops. And GM was the /only/ other site in the Multics world running > production with multi-level security enabled. (CISL did, I know, but that > was development.) > > Edward ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> <3C068CA1.4389F32B@ford.com> <9u8i7q$rlo$1@news.btv.ibm.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 16:27:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.10.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1007224077 209.245.10.26 (Sat, 01 Dec 2001 08:27:57 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 08:27:57 PST X-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 08:27:53 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95594 cbbrowne@acm.org writes: > b) Capabilities. > > Capabilities are cool, because you attach them to programs, thus > granting, to the program, the ability to access only what you set > up the capabilities to grant access to. tymshare did an operating system for ibm mainframe called gnosis (which was spun-off when M/D bought tymshare and renamed): keykos http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~KeyKOS The KeyKOS System misc. pieces from above: U.S. Patent 4,584,639 - Covering the KeyKOS "Factory" The infamous (and much lamented - at least by me) "Factory Patent", covering the mechanism for secure sharing of programs among mutually suspicious users. === The Confused Deputy (1988) Sometimes program must run under a combination of authorities. This leads to obscure bugs and security holes. This paper identifies the cause of the problem, and points out some solutions. The paper is also available in postscript form. === derivative work for intel platform http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~eros/ EROS: The Extremely Reliable Operating System random gnosis/keykos refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#22 No more innovation? Get serious http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:13:37 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c09860f.35390046@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95632 westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: >jraben@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes: > >> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) >> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? ^^^^^^^^^ "Terminal", at least, what I used. >> The combination ran on many univerity machines. > >I think you mean UMMPS (the University of Michigan Multiprogramming >System), the substrate for MTS. UMMPS may have been originally based ^^^^^^ "Supervisor", at least, what I used. >on something from Lincoln Labs. > >I think the total count of installations never grew beyond about ten. [snip] >Other universities running MTS included Wayne State (in Detroit), the >University of British Columbia, and the University of Grenoble, if ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes. That's where I used it. Later, Simon Fraser University did. I think University of Alberta did, too. >memory serves. [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic, Troy, NY) ran MTS starting around 1976 on a 360/67 under cp-67. I'm not sure when it was discontinued. It might still be being run for some admin tasks on the 390. General student access was stopped a few years ago as they started handing out laptops to all incoming freshman. All the oncampus buildings including dorms and student union have been wired for ethernet for years. About 4 years ago I think they wired some of the nearer off campus fraternity/sorority houses as well. It was a great improvement over the previous 'interactive' system called Alpha. Alpha basically turned a 2741 terminal into a card reader for input and line printer for output. I still remember doing a LISP project and having to hit enter twice after each line. One to end the physical line and the second time so the batch LISP could see there was no continueation character on the next line so it could process the previous line. I co-op'd at Griffiss AFB/RADC which upgraded from a 645 to a 6180 between my 75 and 76 co-op semesters. They kept the core boxes. I ran a numerical application (unclassified) so I ran it on both the 6180 Multics and the 360/67 under CP-67/OS-360. The Multics fortran compiler compiled as fast as Watfiv (very fast compile, very slow run) and executed as fast as Fortran-H (slow compile, fast run). According to the manuals, the instruction times for similar instructions were about the same. -- Richard Shetron multics@ruserved.com multics@acm.rpi.edu NO UCE LEGAL NOTICE:Sender of UCE to this address agrees to pay me $500/email plus any and all costs of colleciton. ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: 6 Dec 2001 19:12:43 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9uofvb$rf4@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> <3C056D48.8020408@multicians.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: yak.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:95980 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: (snip regarding timesharing and/or the 360/67) >Stanford had Wylbur which could somewhat be considered another >example. Wylbur was the text editor, which would run without DAT hardware. Orvyl was the subsystem that did timesharing, and required DAT. The Orvyl API was completely different from the OS/360 API, though. I did allow one to write routines to process SVC's, and such routines existed to do some of the common SVC's. Starting with such a routine, I added SPIE processing so that I could run PL/I (F) object modules. (Orvyl took object modules as input, but not OS style load modules. There was a system of SNOBOL code and such that would process the SYSPRINT output from the OS linkage editor, load the appropriate object modules from an object module library, and supply the result to the ORVYL linker.) I do wonder sometimes if Wylbur and Orvyl are still around. (Milten was the terminal I/O handler, and Susan the SVC to communicate between them.) -- glen ###### Message-ID: <3C100E52.F43F776C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> <3C056D48.8020408@multicians.org> <9uofvb$rf4@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: FkSP7-18156-L51-18066@rwcrnsc54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1007678219 FkSP7-18156-L51-18066@rwcrnsc54 (Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:36:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:36:59 GMT Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:36:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96102 glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > > Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > > (snip regarding timesharing and/or the 360/67) > > >Stanford had Wylbur which could somewhat be considered another > >example. > > Wylbur was the text editor, which would run without DAT hardware. > > Orvyl was the subsystem that did timesharing, and required DAT. > > The Orvyl API was completely different from the OS/360 API, though. > I did allow one to write routines to process SVC's, and such > routines existed to do some of the common SVC's. Starting with > such a routine, I added SPIE processing so that I could run > PL/I (F) object modules. (Orvyl took object modules as input, > but not OS style load modules. There was a system of SNOBOL > code and such that would process the SYSPRINT output from the > OS linkage editor, load the appropriate object modules from an > object module library, and supply the result to the ORVYL linker.) > > I do wonder sometimes if Wylbur and Orvyl are still around. > (Milten was the terminal I/O handler, and Susan the SVC to > communicate between them.) > Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Texas is still using Wylbur. Check out the following Wylbur tutorial on their WEB pages: -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: John Alvord Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:12:58 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:97774 On 28 Nov 2001 13:59:47 -0500, westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: >jraben@cascinc.com (Jeff Raben) writes: > >> how come there is nothing here about LLMPS (lincoln labs) >> and MTS (Michigan Timeshare System) that originally ran on the /67? >> >> The combination ran on many univerity machines. > >I think you mean UMMPS (the University of Michigan Multiprogramming >System), the substrate for MTS. UMMPS may have been originally based >on something from Lincoln Labs. There was a LLMPS, from Lincohn Laboratory in Cambridge Mass. My third job was at The Analytic Sciences Corp (TASC, 74-78) and my manager was Joel Winnet, who had been at LL during the interesting times. He said he helped to write LLMPS and then passed it on to other sites including UM. He said they changed and enhanced it sufficiently to call it UMMPS, but the origin was LL work. I remember seeing a Share library listing (not the CBT or VMSHARE tapes, something much earlier) in the middle 1980s and LLMPS was still oderable.) Following is from a short google search... http://www.itd.umich.edu/~doc/Digest/0596/feat02.html >The timesharing experiment began as a "half-page of code on the kitchen table." By combining this >new code with a version of a small multi-programming system (LLMPS) from MIT Lincoln Laboratories--which >was modified and became the U-M Multi-Programming System (UMMPS)--MTS architects Mike Alexander and >Don Boettner were able to create a prototype timesharing system. I can't remember whether it was Rasmusan or Winnet... I attned several talks by R. and had quite a few office chats with W. One of them described LL struggling with early TSS/360 [IPL time = MBTF = 45 minutes] while running MVT and experimenting with LLMPS. As mentioned, Cambridge SC had 8 hours a week (Sunday mid to Monday 8am) and someone from LL in early watched "whatever it was" rebooting in a few minutes. A couple weeks later, IBM was told to remove the 67 unless.... All the above is second hand, I wasn't there... john ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TSS/360 References: <3c05224a.3797374@news.bullseyetelecom.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 01:42:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.211.245.97 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1009590160 63.211.245.97 (Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:42:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:42:40 PST X-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:42:39 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!64.245.249.19.MISMATCH!dfw3-feed1.news.digex.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:97762 John Alvord writes: > There was a LLMPS, from Lincohn Laboratory in Cambridge Mass. My third > job was at The Analytic Sciences Corp (TASC, 74-78) and my manager was > Joel Winnet, who had been at LL during the interesting times. He said > he helped to write LLMPS and then passed it on to other sites > including UM. He said they changed and enhanced it sufficiently to > call it UMMPS, but the origin was LL work. I remember seeing a Share > library listing (not the CBT or VMSHARE tapes, something much earlier) > in the middle 1980s and LLMPS was still oderable.) i still have share LLMPS manual 360D-5.1-004; some quotes: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#0 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/