Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 108 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:16:01 CDT X-Trace: sv3-Mo4+7O7+HWV+wU8S2XleOasVBvyigLwj4rGr5fhzoAHVHxxqcsQEXA9xOhW0JjxS5NmRS/aOHXqVzME!pB9xjOZOLL6KQq8DUvzzKAYsDTIj9UoftD1FQYumyr3v6+ihHQWXHHHctFW5q9iHHwPU2OjfAY+A!D0wph7sKnqZfJiaOzZzFSg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:16:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93068 In the interest of self-betterment, I've decided to start playing around with the Hercules mainframe emulator. Not ever having had significant access to an IBM mainframe, and currently lacking access, it seems like the best way to explore a little of OS/360, and the associated software. So, following the instructions, on this page... http://www.conmicro.cx/hercos360/ ...I now have an emulated machine running OS/360 MFT. The basic idea is to use MFT, and some mounted libraries, to build MVT. I'm at stage 2, and now have a few questions. Please pardon any gross misunderstandings of what's going on. I have _no_ experience with OS/360, and am playing this pretty much by ear. If there is a good source of documentation, I'd really appreciate it. Some of my questions are of the 'how's it work' kind, but a lot are of the 'what's they syntax' kind. With a manual, I should be able to figure the syntax out. :-) - a couple times in the build process, I've had to use a command of the form 'r 00,yes'. If I read this correctly, this means that I'm replying 'yes' to response 00? Do I have the terminology correct? Does this mean that there can be multiple pending responses? I can envision scenarios that have the user firing off a bunch of commands, queuing up some responses and replying to them out of order. If this is true, is there a way to list pending responses? - What am I typing at? The Hercules environment has a telnet session into the Hercules process that represents the console. Does the console work like a Unix console, and print 'standard output' from running processes? I'm guessing no, since much of my output seems to be going to the card punch (a host disk file under Hercules). - Another reponse I've had to use is 'r 00,p0=(a,512k),p1=(a,512k),end'. As I understand it, this sets up two process 'partitions' in my virtual 360, each with 512K of core, and each set up to run a class a process. If I wanted a third partition, would it be as simple as adding a p2=... clause to this reply, or is that a function of the way the OS was build? Also, what's a class A process? I've seen it listed a couple times in the documentation, and it seems to be pretty intrinsic to the operating system. Can information on the availble partitions be listed after the fact? - 's wtr.p0,00e' is the command used to start the writer process in p0. Is the writer process in a file wtr.p0 that's been compiled to run in p0? Or is the .p0 able to be replaced by .p1, without recompiling anything? I'm guessing that if I had a card writer on 00f, I could change ,00e to ,00f, and it'd work correctly. Even then, if I had two writers running on two card punches, how would my processes pick one or the other. Right now, it seems to be compiled into the process. - The instructions for the p1 partition require these two commands: 's init.p1,,,a', 's rdr.p1,00c'. The web page I'm using claims that the first 'init.p1' line doesn't actually run anything. So what does it do? Is 's' not the command for running processes? I'm guessing the syntax is: s .,,, Am I close? What is ? - Running the stage2.jcl part of the build process, I'm getting a lot of messages similar to '*IEF233A M addr,SCRTCH,,RDR,P1 P01', but for addr=351 and DLIB01, rather than SCRTCH. I understand that this means that the volume needs to be mounted, but I don't understand why I'm being asked to mount the same disk over and over again. It keeps asking for the volume, and I keep typing 'i 351' at the Hercules prompt to let the 360 know that the volume is mounted, but I don't really want to run 200K of JCL, mounting the DLIB01 volume every few steps. One of the pieces of advice the website gave was to execute this command m 351,vol=(sl,DLIB01),use=private that 'leaves the volume on the drive for the current execution'. Trying this in the middle of my JCL run didn't seem to work, so can I assume that I need to type this before my job starts? And, when it talks about 'current execution' , which partition does it mean? My p0 is busy running the writer and is static, but If I was running jobs in a number of other partitions, I don't see how this command would work. - From what I can tell, the sysgen process involves assembeling a new build of the operating system. I'm guessing that some form of conditional compilation enables and disables various features and machine support? From what I read on the website, I got the impression that the various compilers (Fortran, Algol, etc.) each have to be enabled in the OS sysgen? Why is this? I've grown accustomed to the compiler being an ordinary process under the OS, and am not sure it works the same under OS/360. - Files? Is there any easy way from the MFT prompt to do a directory listing? I know I have a bunch of volumes available, and would like to spelunk around, from within the OS/360 environment. Calling up Emacs on one of my host files seems like it'd be cheating. :-) Anyway, this is a long list of naive questions. More than I thought I had, actually. If anybody has any advice, or suggestions on where I can find some documentation on the why's of what I'm doing, I'd appreciate it. From what I've seen so far, this environment appears to be extraordinarily different from what I'm used to. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Message-ID: <3BD16B50.A08FEE70@yahoo.com> From: Peter Flass X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (generic reply) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 148 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:15:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.169.5.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@nycap.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 1003580142 24.169.5.42 (Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:15:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:15:42 EDT Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Albany NY Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93114 "MSCHAEF.COM" wrote: > > In the interest of self-betterment, I've decided to start playing > around with the Hercules mainframe emulator. Theree's a Yahoo! group for Hercules "Hercules-390" that might be able to provide additional help. I believe there's a project underway to provide some decent documentation. > is there a way to list pending responses? "D R" works on OS/390, AFAIR it's been the same forever. > - What am I typing at? The Hercules environment has a telnet session > into the Hercules process that represents the console. Does the > console work like a Unix console You're communicating with a "console communications task". In theory you're managing a large computer complex with multiple CPU's, lots of peripherals, and subsystems like JES and VTAM. You're the "console commander" as the lead operator was called. You're not doing anything else from the console. To do user tasks you need a TSO session. > - Another reponse I've had to use is 'r 00,p0=(a,512k),p1=(a,512k),end'. > As I understand it, this sets up two process 'partitions' in my > virtual 360, each with 512K of core, and each set up to run a > class a process. If I wanted a third partition, would it be as > simple as adding a p2=... clause to this reply I believe so. > > - 's wtr.p0,00e' is the command used to start the writer process in p0. > Is the writer process in a file wtr.p0 that's been compiled to run in > p0? Or is the .p0 able to be replaced by .p1, without recompiling > anything? The SYSOUT writer is a generic program, although you could also write your own if you had special requirements. > I'm guessing that if I had a card writer on 00f, I could > change ,00e to ,00f, and it'd work correctly. Even then, if I had > two writers running on two card punches, how would my processes pick > one or the other. This is the function of SYSOUT classes. One punch might process class B and the other class Q. The writer picks jobs off the spool to process based on class. > The instructions for the p1 partition require these two > commands: > 's init.p1,,,a', 's rdr.p1,00c'. The web page I'm using claims > that > the first 'init.p1' line doesn't actually run anything. So what > does it do? Is 's' not the command for running processes? "INIT" is the initiator process. In a bare partition you can start something via the start command "s". The initiator is a process that selects jobs to run off the job queue based on classes, etc. You might have one init processing class A jobs, another for C,D,E, etc. > In article <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, > glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > > >MFT and MVT use job classes to keep jobs with different > requirements > >apart. > Hmm.... so the classes are defined by the site, rather than the OS? Yes. Normally you have a CLASS A, which is a basic generic job, and a lot of distributed JCL assumes class A, but this isn't a requirement. > >There are also sysout classes, which specify where the output > should > >go. Traditionally class A is printed output and class B is > punched > >card output. If you have special printers they can have other > classes. > Ah... this explains a lot. Can I define two classes, B and C, that > go > to two seperate punches? Any need for that kind of stuff? There would be if you had two punches. The classes serve to separate output with different requirements, either different physical devices or different setups (special forms or card stock, etc). > I don't really want to run 200K of JCL, mounting the > DLIB01 volume every few steps. One of the pieces of advice the > website gave was to execute this command > > m 351,vol=(sl,DLIB01),use=private > > that 'leaves the volume on the drive for the current execution'. > Trying this in the middle of my JCL run didn't seem to work, so can > I assume that I need to type this before my job starts? And, when > it talks about 'current execution' , which partition does it mean? > My p0 is busy running the writer and is static, but If I was running > jobs in a number of other partitions, I don't see how this command > would work. The system keeps track of volumes by usage attributes. "PRIVATE" means that the job's have to request the volume by serial number. The system has a table called the "VATLIST" (Volume attribute table) that lets you specify attributes "permanently". > From what I read on the website, I got > the impression that the various compilers (Fortran, Algol, etc.) each > have to be enabled in the OS sysgen? Why is this? I've grown > accustomed to the compiler being an ordinary process under the OS, > and am not sure it works the same under OS/360. In the long-ago days all the software came from IBM, and machine resources were expensive, so the SYSGEN process let you specify exactly what you were installing and you built a set of tailored libraries cointaining exactly what you needed - no more, no less. Otherwise compilers are standard processed. > > - Files? Is there any easy way from the MFT prompt to do a directory > listing? IEHLIST -- a batch job. In article , Arargh! wrote: >On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:01:35 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris >Hedley) wrote: > >>According to glen herrmannsfeldt : >>Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >>the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) > >If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? What are either one of them? :-) A joke. IEFBR14 is a program which does nothing but return (in assembler "BR 14") - actually there was an APAR which added a "SR 15,15" instruction to clear the return code before returning. Running any program involves processing all the DD statements to perfrom dataset allocations and dispositions. IEFBR14 will do this and nothing else. If you execute it with a DD //DUMMY DD DSN=A.B.C,DISP=(,CATLG)... you will create empty dataset A.B.C, like "touch" on unix, but of course JCL is a let's you do lots more. IEFBR15 would be a program that executes "BR 15", or a branch to itself. ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 19 Oct 2001 19:44:17 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 61 Message-ID: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: yak.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93126 mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) writes: >In the interest of self-betterment, I've decided to start playing >around with the Hercules mainframe emulator. Not ever having had >significant access to an IBM mainframe, and currently lacking access, >it seems like the best way to explore a little of OS/360, and the >associated software. (big snip) OS/360, at least as it is being used here is a batch oriented system. Not like most of us are used to using these days. What you are typing into is the operators console. The machine normally sits in a big room with a raised floor and fancy cooling systems. An operator sits at the console watching jobs go by. If a request comes to mount a tape or disk pack, the operator does that one tells the OS that it has been done. There will be users sitting at keypunch machines punching their programs on cards, and then submitting the job at a card reader. MFT and MVT use job classes to keep jobs with different requirements apart. There might be a class for small fast jobs, and a class for large slow jobs. This lets people with small fast jobs get through without waiting for the large slow ones, similar to the express lane at a supermarket. The MFT starter systems only has two partitions, one of which runs the output writer and one the jobs. You can sysgen ones with more, but most people will sysgen MVT which can run a variable number of partitions to run jobs in. There are also sysout classes, which specify where the output should go. Traditionally class A is printed output and class B is punched card output. If you have special printers they can have other classes. You might find a book on JCL in a used book store, which will explain much of this from the user side. Once you know the user side, it isn't so hard to see the operator side. The user/operator in the supermarket analogy is customer/checker. In the hercules case you are doing both. You put your items on the counter (submit the job) and then run around to the register (operators console) and ring them up. Then back around again to pick up your items (look at the results). The IEHLIST utility is pretty much the DIR command. IEBGENER is the cat or cp utility to print files or create them from card input, for example. Consider that you are sitting next to a card reader and line printer and want to create, execute, and see the results from different programs. Hope this helps, -- glen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 42 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:12:59 CDT X-Trace: sv3-6texW9XvEPevQzxoA/B2oZ/WjoeiXbphERxQx9Y6JtVcLjdI1uCmKzbKCDtKQhepBWEGi1FUXtXJb/V!dFvs0uVclyUv6mYVc+kdMXWdNL7gJxBfKlnMKfztQvCh2biszGD7+pe3Rl7yLG8G1ucowYTAsLuh!qq4Y65auLv4hSAEx X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:13:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93134 In article <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > >MFT and MVT use job classes to keep jobs with different requirements >apart. Hmm.... so the classes are defined by the site, rather than the OS? >There are also sysout classes, which specify where the output should >go. Traditionally class A is printed output and class B is punched >card output. If you have special printers they can have other classes. Ah... this explains a lot. Can I define two classes, B and C, that go to two seperate punches? Any need for that kind of stuff? >You might find a book on JCL in a used book store, which will explain >much of this from the user side. Once you know the user side, it isn't >so hard to see the operator side. Yes, I think I'll do that. I got wrapped up in the operator console interface and neglected the JCL. I think I'll get MVT running first if I can, though. >In the hercules case you are doing both. You put your items on the >counter (submit the job) and then run around to the register >(operators console) and ring them up. Then back around again to >pick up your items (look at the results). Yeah... watching the console for mount messages and repeatedly entering 'i 351' drove that home for me the other day. :-) >The IEHLIST utility is pretty much the DIR command. can I 's iehlist.p1'? >Hope this helps, It does... thanks a lot! -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Sender: David Scheidt From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> User-Agent: tin/1.5.8-20010221 ("Blue Water") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/3.1 (i386)) Organization: Midwest Internet Message-ID: <1003523048.806026@brain.mics.net> Cache-Post-Path: brain.mics.net!rufus@brain.mics.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.41.216.21 Date: 19 Oct 2001 16:24:08 -0400 X-Trace: 19 Oct 2001 16:24:08 -0400, 209.41.216.21 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!athena.netset.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93117 MSCHAEF.COM wrote in article : > In article <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, > glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >> >>There are also sysout classes, which specify where the output should >>go. Traditionally class A is printed output and class B is punched >>card output. If you have special printers they can have other classes. > > Ah... this explains a lot. Can I define two classes, B and C, that go > to two seperate punches? Any need for that kind of stuff? If you've got a forms card punch (like to print a bill on, say), you'd probably give it its own class. Same for a printer with forms stock, or check stock, or letter head, or .... > -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:01:35 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1003530611 nnrp-13:20057 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93119 According to glen herrmannsfeldt : > The IEHLIST utility is pretty much the DIR command. > > IEBGENER is the cat or cp utility to print files or create them > from card input, for example. Consider that you are sitting next > to a card reader and line printer and want to create, execute, and > see the results from different programs. Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) Chris. ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:32:43 -0500 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ8OM6zizS6c50OehdaElvwrtQ4Id1RLOqVRjbR1oICSPtWDKb/3dqc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Oct 2001 00:34:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93131 On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:01:35 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to glen herrmannsfeldt : >> The IEHLIST utility is pretty much the DIR command. >> >> IEBGENER is the cat or cp utility to print files or create them >> from card input, for example. Consider that you are sitting next >> to a card reader and line printer and want to create, execute, and >> see the results from different programs. > >Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? > >Chris. -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 20 Oct 2001 01:32:38 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9qqk7m$duu@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: yak.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93125 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >According to glen herrmannsfeldt : >> The IEHLIST utility is pretty much the DIR command. >> >> IEBGENER is the cat or cp utility to print files or create them >> from card input, for example. Consider that you are sitting next >> to a card reader and line printer and want to create, execute, and >> see the results from different programs. >Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) The Bourne shell has the : command which is used the same way. -- glen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:49:48 CDT X-Trace: sv3-mA7Uvg+VJleFwmAvqfT+BDhK38V+Xbak83c4kS8VkhVOn+nEgOeYDc16tq36brpHc770+wUl+6puysU!NaZk5NCusbtkOkcp71zYPglNccd8Ir/ldkVCdOv4zzv6nEakaBaWe1PdKHhptQ1dBDsOC0U5f/0y!8nPqbLvgxlcC2gs8bW0SoA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:49:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93115 In article , Arargh! wrote: >On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:01:35 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris >Hedley) wrote: > >>According to glen herrmannsfeldt : >>> The IEHLIST utility is pretty much the DIR command. >>> >>> IEBGENER is the cat or cp utility to print files or create them >>> from card input, for example. Consider that you are sitting next >>> to a card reader and line printer and want to create, execute, and >>> see the results from different programs. >> >>Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >>the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) > >If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? What are either one of them? :-) -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 20 Oct 2001 17:27:28 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 8 Message-ID: <9qsc60$8km$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1003598848 8854 134.117.136.30 (20 Oct 2001 17:27:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Oct 2001 17:27:28 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93128 MSCHAEF.COM (mschaef@eris.io.com) writes: >>If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? > > What are either one of them? :-) That's what I once did when CPU time cost $1,200 / hour (in 1972 Canadian dollars) when I punched BR 15 instead of XR 15,15 ! ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 20 Oct 2001 21:10:24 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 9 Message-ID: <9qsp80$jdp$1@top.mitre.org> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 1003612224 19897 128.29.114.13 (20 Oct 2001 21:10:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Oct 2001 21:10:24 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93143 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) Absolutely. It was coded with no WAIT (or even WAITR) calls, and runs full-speed until it exits. Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 20 Oct 2001 21:29:34 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 51 Message-ID: <9qsqbu$jln$1@top.mitre.org> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 1003613374 20151 128.29.114.13 (20 Oct 2001 21:29:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Oct 2001 21:29:34 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93146 mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) writes: >Arargh! wrote: >>cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >>>the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) >> >>If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? >What are either one of them? :-) IEFBR14 is a real program that by design does absolutely nothing, and is distributed as part of OS/360. IEFBR15 isn't shipped by IBM, and (assuming that the program did what its name implies) would do nothing but consume CPU cycles until it was killed by some external event. There are legitimate uses for IEFBR14 at typical OS/360 shops, and there can be occasional needs for IEFBR15. A program signals its voluntary termination by branching to the address that was contained in General Purpose Register 14 when the program first received control from the program loader. IEFBR14 originally contained a single instruction that did this; the mnemonic for the instruction was BR 14, which led to its name. Why have a program that does nothing? The answer lies in the concepts of JCL, in which the operating system performs actions (typically creation or deletion) of "data sets" (read "files") as part of the preparation for executing a job step, and again in cleaning up after it terminates. For example, to allocate "SYS1.FOOBAR" I might submit the following job: //ALLOC JOB (380,5210,UTCC-S6),[...other accounting data...] //NOTHING EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //FOOBAR DD DSNAME=SYS1.FOOBAR,DISP=(NEW,CATLG),SPACE=(CYL,1,1), X // VOL=SER=OSRES1 and the system would create ("DISP=(NEW") the data set, run the program (which does nothing), and then add the data set's name and location to the system catalog ("DISP=(,CATLG)"). With a couple of specialized exceptions, data set allocation was possible *only* through JCL. When the loader passes control to a program, the address of the point to which control was passed is in GPR 15. Presumably the program named "IEFBR15" would be written like IEFBR14 but would have a BR 15 instruction, meaning that it would loop forever. Normally this would be a Bad Thing but in certain environments (such as performance measurements or stress-testing) there can be a need to have a process soak up all the available cycles. Joe Morris ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:14:19 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9qsp80$jdp$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1003617001 nnrp-07:12152 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93147 According to Joe Morris : > Absolutely. It was coded with no WAIT (or even WAITR) calls, and > runs full-speed until it exits. Terrible, isn't it? :) Reminds me of the infamous convolutions of the UNIX "true" program; for something that does nothing else but return a normal status code, the complex shell scripts or, alternatively, compiled C programs (version 8.1 on FreeBSD) seems a bit, well, bizarre. Chris. ###### From: Torsten Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:14:57 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9quhoh$26kn$1@news.cybercity.dk> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9qsp80$jdp$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.157.203.138 X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 1003670097 72343 217.157.203.138 (21 Oct 2001 13:14:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:14:57 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: tin/1.5.9-20010723 ("Chord of Souls") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.4-RELEASE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93157 Chris Hedley skrev: > According to Joe Morris : >> Absolutely. It was coded with no WAIT (or even WAITR) calls, and >> runs full-speed until it exits. > Terrible, isn't it? :) > Reminds me of the infamous convolutions of the UNIX "true" program; > for something that does nothing else but return a normal status code, > the complex shell scripts or, alternatively, compiled C programs > (version 8.1 on FreeBSD) seems a bit, well, bizarre. Getting rid of the copyright stuff and the version tags leaves just main() { exit(0); } Could have been a lot worse. Just take a look at the GNU version. /Torsten ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 21 Oct 01 18:54:38 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <616.694T1903T11345132@nowhere.in.particular> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-015.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93191 In article Arargh@Enteract.com (Arargh!) writes: >On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:01:35 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk >(Chris Hedley) wrote: > >>Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >>the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) > >If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? ROTFL! And, if OS/360 was like Sperry->Unisys OS/3 in not implementing true time-slicing, it would also bring any other job of equal or lower priority to a grinding halt. -- cgibbs@nowhere.in.particular (Charlie Gibbs) I'm switching ISPs - watch this space. ###### From: Jeff Teunissen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3BD3CBAB.B54B682E@d2dc.net> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9qsp80$jdp$1@top.mitre.org> <9quhoh$26kn$1@news.cybercity.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US, en Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:40:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.13.35.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 1003736402 24.13.35.106 (Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:40:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:40:02 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93197 Torsten wrote: > Getting rid of the copyright stuff and the version tags leaves just > > main() > { > exit(0); > } > > Could have been a lot worse. Just take a look at the GNU version. Even better, the One True true(tm): touch /bin/true ; chmod +x /bin/true -- | Jeff Teunissen -=- Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing -=- deek @ d2dc.net | GPG: 1024D/9840105A 7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B 161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/ | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/ ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <3tg8ttgejm0qro23ahg2rp8j7tq2p158th@4ax.com> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:13:59 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 1003767200 129.85.24.56 (Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:13:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:13:20 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93194 On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:49:48 GMT, mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) wrote: [ Courtesy cc'ed through e-mail to the quoted author ] >In article , >Arargh! wrote: >>On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:01:35 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris >>Hedley) wrote: [ ... ] >>>Of course, one of the most complex pieces of code, certainly one of >>>the most CPU intensive, is IEFBR14. ;) >> >>If you want 'CPU intensive', should not it be IEFBR15 ? > >What are either one of them? :-) As no one seem to answer, I'll try: IEFBR14 was a system program for OS/360 (and later) that just returned; in its second revision it added a command to clear return code, so it became an equivalent of Unix's true. It was needed because all allocation of external resources was done in JCL on step-by-step basis, so if one needed to pre-allocate resources, an empty step was needed. IEFBR15 is a spoof name for a program that goes into endless loop. Both programs take their names from IBM/360 convention of naming system programs with prefix IEF and actual program name after that; BR 14 is a RETURN command (OS put return address into register 14), BR 15 is JMP * command (I hope I still remember my 360 Assembler and * means "here"). -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:51:00 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 30 Message-ID: <20011022205100.1a7c6bfc.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9qpvqh$3lv@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9qsp80$jdp$1@top.mitre.org> <9quhoh$26kn$1@news.cybercity.dk> <3BD3CBAB.B54B682E@d2dc.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0887.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1003777672 14063 194.134.202.124 (22 Oct 2001 19:07:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:07:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93189 On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:40:02 GMT Jeff Teunissen wrote: JT> Torsten wrote: JT> JT> > Getting rid of the copyright stuff and the version tags leaves just JT> > JT> > main() JT> > { JT> > exit(0); JT> > } JT> > JT> > Could have been a lot worse. Just take a look at the GNU version. JT> JT> Even better, the One True true(tm): JT> JT> touch /bin/true ; chmod +x /bin/true Hmm, the one on Solaris is up to quite a high version number now, mostly I think because of extensions to the list of years in the copyright message comment which occupies the entire file. However ISTM that the OTT requires forking a shell which may be somewhat heftier on resources than loading the rather small binary that results from the code above. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: 23 Oct 2001 00:37:17 GMT Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 11 Message-ID: <1003797438.72831@elaine.furryape.com> References: <9quhoh$26kn$1@news.cybercity.dk> <3BD3CBAB.B54B682E@d2dc.net> <20011022205100.1a7c6bfc.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-423.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.furryape.com!unknown@elaine.furryape.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93243 In article <20011022205100.1a7c6bfc.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > However ISTM that the OTT requires forking a shell which may be >somewhat heftier on resources than loading the rather small binary that >results from the code above. This is true. (groan). on my system here, OTT takes about 1.84 seconds for 100 calls. The binary true takes about 0.14 seconds. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:29:04 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <09d3r9.n51.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3BD3CBAB.B54B682E@d2dc.net> <20011022205100.1a7c6bfc.steveo@eircom.net> <1003797438.72831@elaine.furryape.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1003829405 nnrp-14:10996 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93218 According to Alan Barclay : > This is true. (groan). > > on my system here, OTT takes about 1.84 seconds for 100 calls. > The binary true takes about 0.14 seconds. Curious; on this thing (FBSD 5.0) OTT takes about 0.24 seconds for 100 calls, the compiled variety takes 0.54 seconds. Chris. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: OS/360 and MFT (some questions, very long) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:25:11 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 20 Message-ID: <20011023192511.5f0847c5.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3BD3CBAB.B54B682E@d2dc.net> <20011022205100.1a7c6bfc.steveo@eircom.net> <1003797438.72831@elaine.furryape.com> <09d3r9.n51.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: p611.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1003859580 93675 194.134.201.139 (23 Oct 2001 17:53:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:53:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93249 On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:29:04 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> According to Alan Barclay : CH> > This is true. (groan). CH> > CH> > on my system here, OTT takes about 1.84 seconds for 100 calls. CH> > The binary true takes about 0.14 seconds. CH> CH> Curious; on this thing (FBSD 5.0) OTT takes about 0.24 seconds for 100 CH> calls, the compiled variety takes 0.54 seconds. Hmm, a few tests indicate that it depends how much comment is in the OTT implementation. A genuine 0 byte OTT is very fast, the common large comment variety is slower than the binary on my box. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara