From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:28:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9o259j$9ek$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY9HSqim8SwExtEJGtCXJLjbHw0SFe9Y9ToSwQ5DH1qixN4ic2SYpbs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 12:17:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-52 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6742 alt.folklore.computers:90441 In article <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net>, Alan Greig wrote: > > >Alan Greig wrote: > >> one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from >> using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their >> > >"Peak time" obviously. I'll blame the speel-checker :) Ah, but that fumble finger instance was quite amusing. :-)) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:59 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000581594 62.252.129.184 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:54 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:54 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6735 alt.folklore.computers:90437 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Still for someone just trying to learn TOPS-10, I think SED is a good > choice. Line editors are totally foreign to most computer users, and I've > not used one in 10+ years, I think the last was on a Honeywell DPS-8. > There were EMACS subset clones available for TOPS-10 (Richard Stallman always referred to TOPS-10 as Bottoms-10 preferring TOPS-20 or ITS) Two I remember were FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) and DOPE (Display Oriented Pop2 Editor). At least one or both had an EDT keypad mode. I wonder if these might be online anywhere. Funny story about DOPE. DOPE was written at ERCC (Edinburgh Regional Computer Centre - Edinburgh University. On a visit their circa 1981 I recall a sign in one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their response time." > > Zane > -- Alan Greig ###### Message-ID: <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:36:23 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000582575 62.252.129.184 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:36:15 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:36:15 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6732 alt.folklore.computers:90436 Alan Greig wrote: > one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from > using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their > "Peak time" obviously. I'll blame the speel-checker :) > response time." > > > > > Zane > > > > -- > Alan Greig -- Alan Greig ###### Message-ID: <3BA40287.19B692E9@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:40:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.179.111.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc2.tx.home.com 1000597246 24.179.111.125 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:40:46 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:40:46 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!108934!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6751 alt.folklore.computers:90468 Alan Greig wrote: > > Alan Greig wrote: > > > one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from > > using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their > > > > "Peak time" obviously. I'll blame the speel-checker :) > That's alright...we have all been programming so long, that we all read it as "peak time" anyway... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 16 Sep 2001 00:43:23 GMT Organization: HCRC, University of Edinburgh Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: banks.cogsci.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk 1000601003 89404 129.215.144.55 (16 Sep 2001 00:43:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cogsci.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 00:43:23 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6746 alt.folklore.computers:90461 In article <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net>, Alan Greig wrote: > FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) Also at Edinburgh, Richard O'Keefe wrote an Emacs-like editor for Unix called Thief (This Here Isn't Even FINE). -- Richard -- Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! ###### Message-ID: <3BA43062.1EA26129@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:53:55 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000616028 62.252.129.134 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:53:48 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:53:48 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6731 alt.folklore.computers:90433 Richard Tobin wrote: > In article <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net>, > Alan Greig wrote: > > > FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) > > Also at Edinburgh, Richard O'Keefe wrote an Emacs-like editor for Unix > called Thief (This Here Isn't Even FINE). > That was its name! I thought it was THief Isn't Even FINE now you jog my memory. I'm sure there was a TOPS-10 port as well. But would any old 9-track BACKUP tapes still exist? > > -- Richard > -- > Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. > > FreeBSD rules! -- Alan Greig ###### From: Callum Sword Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:26:11 +0100 Organization: Panasonic Owl Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: Callum_Sword@owl.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: roadrunner.owl.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en-gb] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!cass.news.pipex.net!pipex!owl4.owl.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90474 Richard Tobin wrote: > In article <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net>, > Alan Greig wrote: > > > FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) > > Also at Edinburgh, Richard O'Keefe wrote an Emacs-like editor for Unix > called Thief (This Here Isn't Even FINE). Hmm. I've got a *vague* recollection of using this on Perq, of all things. But I could be mis-recalling... ###### From: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 22:50:24 GMT Organization: HCRC, University of Edinburgh Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: banks.cogsci.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk 1000767024 96997 129.215.144.55 (17 Sep 2001 22:50:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cogsci.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 22:50:24 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90565 In article <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk>, Callum Sword wrote: >I've got a *vague* recollection of using this [Thief] on Perq, of all things. >But I could be mis-recalling... Quite possible, I don't remember for sure. Presumably under PNX, which was an unnecessarily faithful implementation of 7th edition (we all wanted BSD by then). The editor that came with PNX was SPY. I ported Thief to the Sun in 1984, which I think consisted mostly of changing #ifdef vax to #ifdef BSD. You can find Richard O'Keefe at http://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/staff/richard.html if you want it from the horse's mouth. -- Richard -- Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! ###### From: August West Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 23:59:31 +0100 Organization: Dangerous Angel Fan Club Lines: 22 Sender: august@blue.kororaa.com Message-ID: <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-813.alakazam.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1000767588 26760 217.135.14.45 (17 Sep 2001 22:59:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 22:59:48 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-no-archive: yes Original-Sender: Iain A F Fleming User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90545 richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes: > In article <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk>, > Callum Sword wrote: > > >I've got a *vague* recollection of using this [Thief] on Perq, of all things. > >But I could be mis-recalling... > > Quite possible, I don't remember for sure. Presumably under PNX, > which was an unnecessarily faithful implementation of 7th edition (we > all wanted BSD by then). The editor that came with PNX was SPY. Byt only is you got your PERQ from SERC, as part of their Common Base program. SPY came from UKC, along with GUIDE (an early hyper-text system), and UPS (the amazing debugger). All of these were also available on the Sun 3s that SERC moved on to, and probably also the Whitechapel MG-1s that came between the PERQ and the Sun as SERC's anointed machine. -- You're still doing things that I gave up years ago ###### From: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 18 Sep 2001 00:20:48 GMT Organization: HCRC, University of Edinburgh Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9o6410$eo$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: banks.cogsci.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk 1000772448 472 129.215.144.55 (18 Sep 2001 00:20:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cogsci.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 00:20:48 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90548 In article <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com>, August West wrote: >All of these were also available on the Sun 3s that SERC moved on to, >and probably also the Whitechapel MG-1s that came between the PERQ and >the Sun as SERC's anointed machine. As I remember it, the MG-1s didn't really "come between" PERQs and Suns. We (the programming systems group in the AI department) did the workstation evaluation for the SERC common base and recommended Suns (which were Sun-2s at that time). We liked some things about the Whitechapels, but they didn't have a window system at the time - just a card shuffling program that was supposed to give a feel for what it would be like to move windows around. We also looked at Apollos which also had good points but were not quite unix enough. The Whitechapels had 16032 processors which were so flaky that instead of plugging directly into the socket on the motherboard they came on a little PCB with a handful of components to "patch" them. The PNX PERQs were hopeless by comparison with all of these; somewhere I have a table of benchmarks where most of the PERQ entries say "test aborted after 24 hours". -- Richard -- Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! ###### From: August West Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 18 Sep 2001 08:45:32 +0100 Organization: Dangerous Angel Fan Club Lines: 45 Sender: august@blue.kororaa.com Message-ID: <6hbsk9ymar.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <9o6410$eo$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-370.arbok.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1000799149 13028 217.135.17.114 (18 Sep 2001 07:45:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 07:45:49 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90553 richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes: > In article <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com>, > August West wrote: > >All of these were also available on the Sun 3s that SERC moved on to, > >and probably also the Whitechapel MG-1s that came between the PERQ and > >the Sun as SERC's anointed machine. > > As I remember it, the MG-1s didn't really "come between" PERQs and > Suns. We (the programming systems group in the AI department) did the > workstation evaluation for the SERC common base and recommended Suns > (which were Sun-2s at that time). Oh, well, I'm sure I got some MG-1s supplied by SERC in the mid 80s when I was an RA at Oxford. My memory may well be playing up,of course. > We liked some things about the Whitechapels, but they didn't have a > window system at the time - just a card shuffling program that was > supposed to give a feel for what it would be like to move windows > around. Which describes fairly accurately the "capabilities" of Oriel, the kernel-based "window system" that they did eventualy get. It make SunTools look full-featured. > The Whitechapels had 16032 processors which were so flaky that instead > of plugging directly into the socket on the motherboard they came on a > little PCB with a handful of components to "patch" them. Yup. The last one I saw in use at Oxford was as a smaer print spooler, and even at thay it was slightly challenged... But they did have the right approach, back in the 80s, with a PC bus add-on to allow PC cards to be used - Rather like the current Sun desktops. I used a IEEE 822 bus for a whie, to talk to PERQs and HP systems). > The PNX PERQs were hopeless by comparison with all of these; somewhere > I have a table of benchmarks where most of the PERQ entries say "test > aborted after 24 hours". I still have a soft spot for them, nonetheless, and I wuld have placed the MG-1 below the PERQ (the 2 at least) in reliability. -- You're still doing things that I gave up years ago ###### From: bogus@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 20 Sep 2001 00:03:29 GMT Organization: The Biggest Fluff Mine in Midlothian Distribution: world Message-ID: <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1000941069 nnrp-02:16040 NO-IDENT purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Posting-Agent: MacSlurp 1.6d8 Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!purr.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90696 >>The editor that came with PNX was SPY. > But only if you got your PERQ from SERC, as part of their Common Base > program. SPY came from UKC, along with GUIDE (an early hyper-text > system), and UPS (the amazing debugger). > All of these were also available on the Sun 3s that SERC moved on to, > and probably also the Whitechapel MG-1s that came between the PERQ and > the Sun as SERC's anointed machine. No, MG-1s had minimal software (some kind of BSD, much flakier than PNX, and no windowing system). They lasted long enough that people got the earliest and flakiest versions of X running on them. This gave you a machine that with a bit of luck you might manage one edit-compile-run cycle on before it all froze and you had to rlogin into it to restart the window manager. Perqs were rather neat, apart from sounding like you had a sawbench running beside your desk, and their window systems were slick and responsive with a refreshing freedom from cluttery widgets. Anybody here ever write microcode for one? Can't do that on any current PC. Guide could do things that you still can't do with HTML and current web browsers, and with amazing efficiency. The Mac version works fine on every 68K Mac I've tried, and probably works on every system up to OS X. Orphaning this was a really stupid waste. I've still got a few Perq bitpad magnetizing strips around the house stuck to radiators. When you need a macho fridge magnet 18 inches long with several pounds of pull they're just the thing. You could probably use one as a gun rack. ========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources ###### From: "Joseph Pepin" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:35:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.87.177 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1000946125 24.190.87.177 (Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:35:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:35:25 EDT Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90683 "Callum Sword" wrote in message news:3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk... > > > Richard Tobin wrote: > > > In article <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net>, > > Alan Greig wrote: > > > > > FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) > > > > Also at Edinburgh, Richard O'Keefe wrote an Emacs-like editor for Unix > > called Thief (This Here Isn't Even FINE). > > Hmm. > I've got a *vague* recollection of using this on Perq, of all things. > But I could be mis-recalling... > We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1000947883 29664 128.123.64.113 (20 Sep 2001 01:04:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 01:04:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90659 "Joseph Pepin" writes: > > We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I > believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable > editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. > If it was on a DEC operating system (my experience with it was under VMS), it was ``Son of Stopgap.'' Local legend (which I have no reason to doubt, but I want to make clear I don't know the history first-hand) was that there had been an earlier editor rushed into the field as a stopgap measure... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: HajoSpuunup Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:12:07 GMT Organization: Spuunup Software Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: proxy1.pro-bel.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: proxy1.pro-bel.co.uk:212.240.89.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1000980727 nnrp-08:27314 NO-IDENT proxy1.pro-bel.co.uk:212.240.89.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.11 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!proxy1.pro-bel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90692 On 20 Sep 2001, bogus address wrote... > > I've still got a few Perq bitpad magnetizing strips around the house > stuck to radiators. When you need a macho fridge magnet 18 inches long > with several pounds of pull they're just the thing. You could probably > use one as a gun rack. > > Please excuse my ignorance - what are these strips and what were they originally used for? Thanks hajo ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:37:54 +0100 Message-ID: <1000982172.578.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1000982172 nnrp-12:578 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2481.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2481.0000 Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90689 "bogus address" wrote in message news:8167@purr.demon.co.uk... > No, MG-1s had minimal software (some kind of BSD, much flakier than PNX, > and no windowing system). They lasted long enough that people got the > earliest and flakiest versions of X running on them. This gave you a > machine that with a bit of luck you might manage one edit-compile-run > cycle on before it all froze and you had to rlogin into it to restart > the window manager. > The MG1s that we had at QMC (circa 1986) did have a windowing system which worked well enough (buggered if I can remember the name of it) It used an raster (stored in main memory) for each window to draw on which was then bit blitted onto the display from memory (No need to worry about paint events). I used them to learn C on and while I core dumped frequently the MG1 stayed up. I never tried to run X on them but I'd thought it would probably be X11R2? Note: Since this 15 years ago I may well be misremembering. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: bogus@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 20 Sep 2001 13:58:03 GMT Organization: The Biggest Fluff Mine in Midlothian Distribution: world Message-ID: <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1000998002 nnrp-01:16363 NO-IDENT purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Posting-Agent: MacSlurp 1.6d8 Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!purr.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90695 >> I've still got a few Perq bitpad magnetizing strips around the house >> stuck to radiators. When you need a macho fridge magnet 18 inches long >> with several pounds of pull they're just the thing. You could probably >> use one as a gun rack. > Please excuse my ignorance - what are these strips and what were they > originally used for? The pointing device on Perqs was a "puck" with a crosshair surrounded by a wire loop, set in clear plastic; this interacted with zillions of little vertically-oriented coils in the "bitpad", each of which had a small permanent-magnet core, with signals sent out on a GPIB bus (a parallel interface that was a pre-standardization version of SCSI). But (presumably to cut costs on what must already have been an insanely expensive device) the magnetic material wasn't very permanently magnetic, and you had to remagnetize it every so often. What you got to do this with was a bunch of ferrite strips in a plastic tube (the whole assembly looking like a draughtsman's flexicurve), magnetized *across the width of the material* - you'd wipe this over the pad. Surprisingly, it all worked reliably; the puck was better than a mouse for accurate positioning (as in CAD) but worse for large movements (as in text editing) - you kept running out of pad. The clear plastic pointing unit meant you could put a drawing down on your bitpad and trace it. I'd guess that similar hardware was used elsewhere in the CAD industry for a while. ========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:10:36 CDT X-Trace: sv3-OZDRv5FoBL+JftfzwrdJKtn2pVgk0ZCMws8cY5oGHv8eOLolC9yOhTREIBegsL/st5EvpeWA2UHXX8h!IpVV/mKrMTiWnZLP3W4nOtAU9W9YyfDVl4trXb5HdkmvaXIlkc7fYTWSGVoqBmC6z12hSdmSudRy!M+KGGJkB2gZIiBVPGESK6Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:10:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90646 In article <8170@purr.demon.co.uk>, bogus address wrote: >The pointing device on Perqs was a "puck" with a crosshair surrounded >by a wire loop, set in clear plastic; this interacted with zillions of >little vertically-oriented coils in the "bitpad", each of which had >a small permanent-magnet core, with signals sent out on a GPIB bus (a >parallel interface that was a pre-standardization version of SCSI). You sure about the connection between GPIB and SCSI? My understanding is that GPIB was the standardized version of HPIB, a bus HP developed to interface lab instruments to their computers. Later on, it was 'liberated' to other kinds of computers and became first a defacto and then an official IEEE standard. Many products are still being developed around GPIB. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 20 Sep 2001 16:53:50 +0100 Organization: Cley Ltd Sender: tfb@lostwithiel Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lostwithiel.cley.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: lostwithiel.cley.com:212.240.242.98 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001003694 nnrp-14:18026 NO-IDENT lostwithiel.cley.com:212.240.242.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!lostwithiel.cley.com!lostwithiel!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90652 * bogus address wrote: > The pointing device on Perqs was a "puck" with a crosshair surrounded > by a wire loop, set in clear plastic; this interacted with zillions of > little vertically-oriented coils in the "bitpad", each of which had > a small permanent-magnet core, with signals sent out on a GPIB bus (a > parallel interface that was a pre-standardization version of SCSI). I'm not sure GPIB was a pre-SCSI. I think there was SASI which was (?) Shugart Associates System Interface which was a pre-SCSI, whereas GPIB is really HPIB, or IEE(E?)-488 which is really an instrumentation bus, and a different thing. On the other hand, there were definitely machines made by HP (the HP-85 was one) which used the HPIB bus for things like floppy drives as well as talking to instruments, and the HPIB connectors look a bit like some SCSI connectors do, if I remember them right (but didn't they stack in some curious way?). --tim ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:02:27 -0600 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 9 Message-ID: <1by9n9rgto.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1001001742 23439 128.123.64.113 (20 Sep 2001 16:02:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 16:02:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!137.192.6.2!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90657 Oh, boy. I remember those from Weyerhaeuser -- one of our people spent several hours one day digitizing a map by hand with one, and then discovered that pencil notations on the map confused the puck so badly his work had been useless.... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:49:27 +0100 Organization: Network_Services_Division Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: wormhole.ucs.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: scotsman.ed.ac.uk 1001004567 29612 129.215.200.202 (20 Sep 2001 16:49:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@scotsman.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 16:49:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!wormhole.ucs.ed.ac.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90698 In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * bogus address wrote: > > > The pointing device on Perqs was a "puck" with a crosshair surrounded > > by a wire loop, set in clear plastic; this interacted with zillions of > > little vertically-oriented coils in the "bitpad", each of which had > > a small permanent-magnet core, with signals sent out on a GPIB bus (a > > parallel interface that was a pre-standardization version of SCSI). > > I'm not sure GPIB was a pre-SCSI. I think there was SASI which was > (?) Shugart Associates System Interface which was a pre-SCSI, whereas > GPIB is really HPIB, or IEE(E?)-488 which is really an instrumentation > bus, and a different thing. IEEE-488 aka GPIB, a generalisation of HPIB, which then went on and got a few new features, I believe. HPIB = Hewlett Packard Interconnect Bus or something close to that, and GPIB = General Purpose IB. > On the other hand, there were definitely machines made by HP (the > HP-85 was one) which used the HPIB bus for things like floppy drives > as well as talking to instruments, and the HPIB connectors look a bit > like some SCSI connectors do, if I remember them right (but didn't > they stack in some curious way?). I've never had to look at the internals of SCSI (a gaping hole in my education, I feel) but GPIB was really rather like the Centronics parallel interface but multidrop. It is (or was 15 years ago - it's almost certainly been developed since then) an asynchronous 8-bit parallel bus with strobe/ack timing and ways of signalling which device was the target. I don't remember there being a controller as such, but I may be wrong. The connectors were like the big Centronics/SCSI 50-way except double sided and with locking screws so they could be stacked together. HP used them as a general peripheral bus - they came on their printers and plotters as well measuring instruments and the like - as did other manufacturers (Tektronix, certainly). I don't know why I'm saying this - there are probably people on a.f.c who designed the thing. -- Sam Wilson Network Services Division, Computing Services The University of Edinburgh Edinburgh, Scotland, UK ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:52:26 CDT X-Trace: sv3-ObmVTGHRunjT4+5fycA9uHTVPhxmqOBuRf9KDdRnpAmQjr18sCKE4DF3Yjx7nKTd7JvHfWuuqtAoLO4!ecVXjblvPOliWgzEYOrWnrxQq1kaljA/lidEIcmvlIpyNcuUO6kXIb9lZkhbLJGNAFyrw2FT+dCT!kQ8iY0X3G9tFCey+bubqrw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:52:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90644 In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: >On the other hand, there were definitely machines made by HP (the >HP-85 was one) which used the HPIB bus for things like floppy drives >as well as talking to instruments, and the HPIB connectors look a bit >like some SCSI connectors do, if I remember them right (but didn't >they stack in some curious way?). Cable out the side of the connector. Plugs on both sides. There's a link to a larger picture of a cable on this page. http://sine.ni.com/apps/we/nioc.vp?lang=US&pc=mn&cid=1281 I don't speak for my employer (NI), but we (not literally me, I was 2) got our start developing GPIB interfaces for PDP's. Among many other things, We still sell a large selection of GPIB parts. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general From: hoh@invalid.invalid (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Message-ID: Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test73 (May 24, 2000) References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <8170@purr.demon.co.uk> Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.134.143 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1001005860 212.151.134.143 (Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:11:00 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:11:00 MET DST X-Sender: q-11932@d212-151-134-143.swipnet.se Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:00:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90697 In article <8170@purr.demon.co.uk>, bogus address wrote: > a small permanent-magnet core, with signals sent out on a GPIB bus (a > parallel interface that was a pre-standardization version of SCSI). The pre-standardization version of SCSI was SASI. The GPIB/HPIB/IEEE488 is an bus intended for instruments. -- Göran Larsson Senior Systems Analyst hoh AT approve DOT se ###### From: August West Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 20 Sep 2001 23:37:32 +0100 Organization: Dangerous Angel Fan Club Lines: 11 Sender: august@blue.kororaa.com Message-ID: <6hd74lh4k3.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-601.ballistic.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1001025476 20078 62.25.138.89 (20 Sep 2001 22:37:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2001 22:37:56 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net iFrom: August West X-no-archive: yes Original-Sender: Iain A F Fleming eferences: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <1000982172.578.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90725 "Peter Ibbotson" writes: > The MG1s that we had at QMC (circa 1986) did have a windowing system which > worked well enough (buggered if I can remember the name of it) ORIEL. The associated library was called ANGEL. -- I won't be fancy; but I will be free ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:58:24 +0100 Message-ID: <1001059093.9132.0.nnrp-01.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <6hd74lh4k3.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001059093 nnrp-01:9132 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2481.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2481.0000 Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90744 "August West" wrote in message news:6hd74lh4k3.fsf@blue.kororaa.com... > "Peter Ibbotson" writes: > > > The MG1s that we had at QMC (circa 1986) did have a windowing system which > > worked well enough (buggered if I can remember the name of it) > > ORIEL. > The associated library was called ANGEL. Thanks for that, I nearly had to go down into the cellar and see if I still had any docs from that era. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 22 Sep 01 09:39:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <9oi077$mne$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYrg3n4iTdtBgC+87KNnxMbqQaEMRlhKibQrdb7wESI4GxpXbC6+XlQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 2001 12:29:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90768 In article <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) wrote: > >On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer > wrote: > >>"Joseph Pepin" writes: >>> >>> We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I >>> believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable >>> editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. >>> >>If it was on a DEC operating system (my experience with it was under >>VMS), it was ``Son of Stopgap.'' Local legend (which I have no reason >>to doubt, but I want to make clear I don't know the history >>first-hand) was that there had been an earlier editor rushed into the >>field as a stopgap measure... > >I remember SOS on the 10. It also had very bad bugs. > ..I used it when most others I knew used >TECO. I didn't learn TECO until RT-11. > >SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit >ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it >could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. > >I don't remember justify in SOS, but it may have had it. > >I do remember it from WYLBUR on IBM 360/370 systems. It had >ALIGN (ragged right) and JUSTIFY (add spaces to fill to the >margins). In the days before laser printers, it was pretty nice! >(It moved words between lines to fill up the lines to the >set margin, then (for JUSTIFY) added spaces. > >-- glen Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:10:13 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-139-221.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1001135414 5474 207.148.139.221 (22 Sep 2001 05:10:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 05:10:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90788 On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >"Joseph Pepin" writes: >> >> We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I >> believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable >> editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. >> >If it was on a DEC operating system (my experience with it was under >VMS), it was ``Son of Stopgap.'' Local legend (which I have no reason >to doubt, but I want to make clear I don't know the history >first-hand) was that there had been an earlier editor rushed into the >field as a stopgap measure... SOS eased my introduction to VMS, as I had used it many years earlier on TOPS-10 with TTYs (both set to no echo to speed up input and output), and the fingers never forget. Stopgap was developed originally on the 6, verified by TNHD under SOS -- anyone know from whom and whence it came? When I got to work on VMS, I found TECO and VTEDIT was also available and my fingers hadn't forgotten those commands either from 10 and 11 days. Then I discovered EVE/TPU supported commands, screens, multiple files and multiple windows, so I jumped on board that ship too! BTW, did they ever make a version of EDT that would start up in screen (Change) mode, or add any features which made it into something more than a dumb line editor with a screen/keypad interface? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 22 Sep 2001 09:49:12 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: yak.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.135.12.170.MISMATCH!news.uchicago.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90774 On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >"Joseph Pepin" writes: >> >> We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I >> believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable >> editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. >> >If it was on a DEC operating system (my experience with it was under >VMS), it was ``Son of Stopgap.'' Local legend (which I have no reason >to doubt, but I want to make clear I don't know the history >first-hand) was that there had been an earlier editor rushed into the >field as a stopgap measure... I remember SOS on the 10. I used it when most others I knew used TECO. I didn't learn TECO until RT-11. SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. I don't remember justify in SOS, but it may have had it. I do remember it from WYLBUR on IBM 360/370 systems. It had ALIGN (ragged right) and JUSTIFY (add spaces to fill to the margins). In the days before laser printers, it was pretty nice! (It moved words between lines to fill up the lines to the set margin, then (for JUSTIFY) added spaces. -- glen ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 23 Sep 01 10:39:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <9oko5g$o91$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM> <9okgi8$lvb$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BADD46B.D81F4A2D@yahoo.com.NOSPAM> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbEAcluI/B6D/fhd5Xwf0MLAJbJByTsmI0wk4RcTgy4/3Y/KJ6qoS/7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2001 13:30:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-186 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90807 In article <3BADD46B.D81F4A2D@yahoo.com.NOSPAM>, CBFalconer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM>, >> CBFalconer wrote: >> >glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >> >> >> >> On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >.... snip ... >> >> >> >> I remember SOS on the 10. I used it when most others I knew used >> >> TECO. I didn't learn TECO until RT-11. >> >> >> >> SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit >> >> ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it >> >> could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. >> > >> >I have found a useful convention to be: If the first eight >> >characters in a line are ALL digits, that constitutes a line >> >number, with the last 3 of those characters a fractional portion >> >(allowing for modification without diddling basic numbering). >> >> Bzzzt! Bad one. Think numerical data. >> >I said convention, and I apply it to source files and the ilk. >Usage is in the application, not the file system. Never had a >problem in 25 years. Then you never wrote code using machine language nor dealt with raw data. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 23 Sep 01 08:30:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9okgi8$lvb$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaQnK91IB7weLEth9sZ0C+mXqcGV9hKdZmEYNeihYY3TYjp1ZjbY3FL X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2001 11:20:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-183 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90809 In article <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM>, CBFalconer wrote: >glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >> >> On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer >> wrote: >> >.... snip ... >> >> I remember SOS on the 10. I used it when most others I knew used >> TECO. I didn't learn TECO until RT-11. >> >> SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit >> ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it >> could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. > >I have found a useful convention to be: If the first eight >characters in a line are ALL digits, that constitutes a line >number, with the last 3 of those characters a fractional portion >(allowing for modification without diddling basic numbering). Bzzzt! Bad one. Think numerical data. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BAE0A3B.B011E467@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM> <9okgi8$lvb$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BADD46B.D81F4A2D@yahoo.com.NOSPAM> <9oko5g$o91$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:30:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.175.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1001262651 12.90.175.129 (Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:30:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:30:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90789 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3BADD46B.D81F4A2D@yahoo.com.NOSPAM>, > CBFalconer wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM>, > >> CBFalconer wrote: > >> >glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >.... snip ... > >> >> > >> >> I remember SOS on the 10. I used it when most others I knew used > >> >> TECO. I didn't learn TECO until RT-11. > >> >> > >> >> SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit > >> >> ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it > >> >> could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. > >> > > >> >I have found a useful convention to be: If the first eight > >> >characters in a line are ALL digits, that constitutes a line > >> >number, with the last 3 of those characters a fractional portion > >> >(allowing for modification without diddling basic numbering). > >> > >> Bzzzt! Bad one. Think numerical data. > >> > >I said convention, and I apply it to source files and the ilk. > >Usage is in the application, not the file system. Never had a > >problem in 25 years. > > Then you never wrote code using machine language nor dealt > with raw data. Of course I did. Doesn't mean I want to be bothered with trivialities when I can make things convenient for myself. Think lazy. I designed hardware, wrote assemblers, compilers, applications, debuggers, monitors. Some were better than others. When I (or others) made a mistake I tried to fix the cause of that mistake/misunderstanding. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 24 Sep 01 08:40:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <9on5hk$p17$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9oi077$mne$6@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbsxmY9x3WIm9fPEnrKxEf7U5twX8eoSSjZ0zIOVSPcnOl0JdPR6otH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Sep 2001 11:31:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-34 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90858 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Sat, 22 Sep 01 09:39:03 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, >> gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) wrote: >>> >>>On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer >>> wrote: >>> >>>>"Joseph Pepin" writes: >>>>> >>>>> We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I >>>>> believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable >>>>> editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. >>>>> >>>>If it was on a DEC operating system (my experience with it was under >>>>VMS), it was ``Son of Stopgap.'' Local legend (which I have no reason >>>>to doubt, but I want to make clear I don't know the history >>>>first-hand) was that there had been an earlier editor rushed into the >>>>field as a stopgap measure... >>> >>>I remember SOS on the 10. >> >>It also had very bad bugs. > >Never had a problem, even typing blind on a TTY. >Maybe the OLS? OLI? (Online Systems Inc?) sys progs had fixed >them? Possibly. Or you never opened a file with no . That was one that seemed to come back to haunt us. I never did find out why the fix never stayed put. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question From: August West Organization: Dangerous Angel Fan Club X-no-archive: yes Sender: iain@dumbo Original-Sender: Iain A F Fleming References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> Lines: 77 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Capitol Reef" Date: 20 Sep 2001 01:33:07 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.137.21.218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 1001324703 212.137.21.218 (Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:45:03 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:45:03 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90872 bogus@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) writes: > >>The editor that came with PNX was SPY. > > But only if you got your PERQ from SERC, as part of their Common Base > > program. SPY came from UKC, along with GUIDE (an early hyper-text > > system), and UPS (the amazing debugger). > > All of these were also available on the Sun 3s that SERC moved on to, > > and probably also the Whitechapel MG-1s that came between the PERQ and > > the Sun as SERC's anointed machine. > > No, MG-1s had minimal software (some kind of BSD, much flakier than PNX, Yup, it was a BSD4.1 port, called 4.2-nix (pronounced fourtune-ix) (done in the Isle of Man, I believe; PNX was ported at ICL Dalkieth.) The MG-1 initially shiped with Genix, NS's SysV port. 4.2-nix wasn't that bad, in my experience - although the systems I used had lots of add-on software, from Common Base and elsewhere, and alwys had the latest set of patch wires installed to work around the failings of the boars and the NS16032. OK, so it wasn't too, good, but not all that bad. Hell, it supported GNU Emacs - what else do you need? > and no windowing system). The MG-1 certainly did have a windowing system, of sorts - the kernel-based ORIEL. Rather poorer, but similar, to SunTools. Not very featureful, but it was quite snappy. > They lasted long enough that people got the earliest and flakiest > versions of X running on them. Never saw X running on an MG-1. > Perqs were rather neat, apart from sounding like you had a sawbench > running beside your desk, Kept the heating bills down in winter, though. And the nise leel did go down subrtanitally when the PERQ-2 came with metal case, rather than the plastic lunch box that the PERQ-1 came it. > and their window systems were slick and > responsive with a refreshing freedom from cluttery widgets. They were even better when running Accent (Mach's predecessor). And did you know that the MG-1's display mask-shift rasterops were based on the PERQ? And even Three River's original OS POS on the PERQ was rather nice. > Anybody here ever write microcode for one? Can't do that on any > current PC. Oh, yes. And what a mind-twister that was. > Guide could do things that you still can't do with HTML and current web > browsers, and with amazing efficiency. The Mac version works fine on > every 68K Mac I've tried, and probably works on every system up to OS X. Guide was good, but I still think the UPS debugger was the best bit of software that the Common Base/UKC Software tools program produced. I was using it regularly on SGI Indigos and Sun 4s at NAG until the mid 90s - until UKC decided to start charging for it. > Orphaning this was a really stupid waste. UKC are still flogging it, you know. > I've still got a few Perq bitpad magnetizing strips around the house > stuck to radiators. De-magnetizing surely? For those who need to know, there is more info about WCW and the MC-1 available at http://www.galactic.co.uk/iainf/mg1.html -- You're still doing things that I gave up years ago ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:53:27 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9oi077$mne$6@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-143-189.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1001282008 25359 207.148.143.189 (23 Sep 2001 21:53:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:53:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90909 On Sat, 22 Sep 01 09:39:03 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, > gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) wrote: >> >>On 19 Sep 2001 19:04:46 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer >> wrote: >> >>>"Joseph Pepin" writes: >>>> >>>> We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I >>>> believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable >>>> editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. >>>> >>>If it was on a DEC operating system (my experience with it was under >>>VMS), it was ``Son of Stopgap.'' Local legend (which I have no reason >>>to doubt, but I want to make clear I don't know the history >>>first-hand) was that there had been an earlier editor rushed into the >>>field as a stopgap measure... >> >>I remember SOS on the 10. > >It also had very bad bugs. Never had a problem, even typing blind on a TTY. Maybe the OLS? OLI? (Online Systems Inc?) sys progs had fixed them? >> ..I used it when most others I knew used >>TECO. I didn't learn TECO until RT-11. >> >>SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit >>ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it >>could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. >> >>I don't remember justify in SOS, but it may have had it. >> >>I do remember it from WYLBUR on IBM 360/370 systems. It had >>ALIGN (ragged right) and JUSTIFY (add spaces to fill to the >>margins). In the days before laser printers, it was pretty nice! >>(It moved words between lines to fill up the lines to the >>set margin, then (for JUSTIFY) added spaces. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:26:42 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1001288165 mail2news:4951 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90899 In article Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca "Brian Inglis" writes: > Then I discovered EVE/TPU supported commands, screens, multiple > files and multiple windows, so I jumped on board that ship too! AIRI, EVE didn't come along until VMS v4.x (where .x may have been about .3); it was certainly some considerable number of years after I first saw VMS. Indeed, IIRC, I'd been using LSEdit for a year or two *before* EVE was released; I think it was later re-engineered as a layer on top of EVE. > BTW, did they ever make a version of EDT that would start up in > screen (Change) mode, or add any features which made it into > something more than a dumb line editor with a screen/keypad > interface? Come, come: EDT was a wonderful screen-mode editor; I first used it under RSX-11M and RT-11 on a 11/40 with VT52s, and later under VMS. All it needed to come up in screen-mode was a single line EDTINI.EDT (IIRC) file. It was around many years before EVE/TPU, and one of the latter's emulation modes was of EDT. I am currently preparing this response under a DOS+OS/2 version of EDT called SEDT, which has been my editor of choice on the PC since the latish 1980s; of course, one had to wait for the 102-key (or whatever) keyboard on the PC before it became properly workable, since otherwise there weren't enough keys to have the keypad (GOLD, PF3, Enter, etc) as well as the separate cursor keys, which both the VT52 and VT1xx had had well over a decade earlier. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Sep 2001 04:10:25 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9ombnh$73s@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <1bzo7qlljl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <9ohmqo$pfe@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3BACBD89.7762DD99@yahoo.com.NOSPAM> <9okgi8$lvb$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: retch.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!137.192.6.2!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90868 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >>> >>> SOS used line numbers, which it stored in the file as a 5 digit >>> ASCII number with the low bit of the word on. That way it >>> could distinguish non-numbered files, where that bit was off. >> Someone wrote: >>I have found a useful convention to be: If the first eight >>characters in a line are ALL digits, that constitutes a line >>number, with the last 3 of those characters a fractional portion >>(allowing for modification without diddling basic numbering). >Bzzzt! Bad one. Think numerical data. In this case, it was that compilers would ignore a leading word containing numbers, or possibly use that number in error messages. For data files, it would be up to the program reading the file, and I don't know that they would do it. If SOS read a file without numbers, it would number them, with a specified or default increment. You could save with or without. -- glen ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Sep 2001 11:25:50 +0100 Organization: TFEB.ORG Lines: 22 Sender: tfb@omega.tardis.ed.ac.uk Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 1001325983 7099 193.62.81.5 (24 Sep 2001 10:06:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90886 August West writes: > > For those who need to know, there is more info about WCW and the MC-1 > available at http://www.galactic.co.uk/iainf/mg1.html > The `MG' in `MG-1' is reputed to stand for `Milliard Gargantubrain'. One the other (perhaps the other) UK small-computer manufacturer, High Level Hardware (who came out of RM), made a machine called the Orion. This was a bit-sliced microcoded machine which was covered in z80s. One of these was the diagnostic processor, which was used to boot the machine by talking to one of the disk controllers (also, containing a z80) and loading microcode, but also had a terminal connection from where you could look at the state of the main processor. The prompt of this was `DT> ', which officially stood for `Diagnostic Terminal' but in fact stood for `Deep Thought'. Orions were indeed bigger and better machines than MG-1s... --tim ###### Message-ID: <3BAF3EDE.F0485060@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:14:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.177.22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1001340870 12.90.177.22 (Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:14:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:14:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90843 August West wrote: > ... snip ... > > The MG-1 certainly did have a windowing system, of sorts - the > kernel-based ORIEL. Rather poorer, but similar, to SunTools. > Not very featureful, but it was quite snappy. > ... snip ... The MGs I knew had no windowing system - just sidecurtains and the ability to lower the windshield. :-) -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Sep 2001 20:37:52 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6uzo7kwi2n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1001356677 337 10.0.3.2 (24 Sep 2001 18:37:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Sep 2001 18:37:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90918 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > In article > Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca "Brian Inglis" writes: > > > Then I discovered EVE/TPU supported commands, screens, multiple > > files and multiple windows, so I jumped on board that ship too! > > AIRI, EVE didn't come along until VMS v4.x (where .x may have been about > .3); it was certainly some considerable number of years after I first saw > VMS. Indeed, IIRC, I'd been using LSEdit for a year or two *before* EVE > was released; I think it was later re-engineered as a layer on top of > EVE. Under VMS 5.5, where I first met it, LSE was implemented on top of EVE. > > BTW, did they ever make a version of EDT that would start up in > > screen (Change) mode, I have used EDTs on some unidentified PDP-11 OS and on VMS starting around 4.x. Both allways started into screen mode, the way they were adjusted at those sites. > Come, come: EDT was a wonderful screen-mode editor; I first used it under > > I am currently preparing this response under a DOS+OS/2 version of EDT > called SEDT, which has been my editor of choice on the PC since the > latish 1980s; To everyone his own taste. I never really liked EDT/EVE/LSE, even if I did use it for years. I still remember the big keypad diagrams hung up on the front wall of each terminal room. Was for me allways the hallmark of non-intuitive user interface. And yes, I know many users with today small personal diagrams like this for vi or emacs. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:28:58 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.8-20010221 ("Blue Water") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.3-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90943 In alt.folklore.computers Tim Bradshaw wrote: > > One the other (perhaps the other) UK small-computer manufacturer, High > Level Hardware (who came out of RM), made a machine called the Orion. > This was a bit-sliced microcoded machine which was covered in z80s. > One of these was the diagnostic processor, which was used to boot the > machine by talking to one of the disk controllers (also, containing a > z80) and loading microcode, but also had a terminal connection from > where you could look at the state of the main processor. The prompt > of this was `DT> ', which officially stood for `Diagnostic Terminal' > but in fact stood for `Deep Thought'. > > Orions were indeed bigger and better machines than MG-1s... Hmmmmmmmmm. As well as the bagfull of AMDs running 4.1, HLH later started making Fairchild Clipper machines in the late 80s. Very dodgy 4.2 port, and HLH soon lost interest in building computers and went off to be a grey-market Mac importer instead. I've used both kinds of Orion - the microcoded one was our "lab" machine when I was an undergrad (the functional programming guys also did some custom-microcoding on them, and had Starpoint graphics terminals); towards the end of my undergrad career we got a couple of the Clipper ones - for reasons entirely unconnected with the dep't spinoff company getting a contract to do a tick-list Ada compiler for Intergraph, honest :) pete ###### Message-ID: <3BAFA0F4.76C5DC0D@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:39:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.172.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1001371161 12.90.172.17 (Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:39:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:39:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!f.de.uu.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90954 Pete Fenelon wrote: > ... snip ... > > Hmmmmmmmmm. As well as the bagfull of AMDs running 4.1, HLH later > started making Fairchild Clipper machines in the late 80s. Very dodgy > 4.2 port, and HLH soon lost interest in building computers and went off > to be a grey-market Mac importer instead. There was a firm here in leftpondia that took over the clipper chip and used it to build a line of Unixen Boxen. About '90 or '91. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 25 Sep 2001 09:43:29 +0100 Organization: Cley Ltd Sender: tfb@lostwithiel Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lostwithiel.cley.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: lostwithiel.cley.com:212.240.242.98 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001407522 nnrp-08:9036 NO-IDENT lostwithiel.cley.com:212.240.242.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!lostwithiel.cley.com!lostwithiel!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:90967 * Pete Fenelon wrote: > Hmmmmmmmmm. As well as the bagfull of AMDs running 4.1, HLH later > started making Fairchild Clipper machines in the late 80s. Very dodgy > 4.2 port, and HLH soon lost interest in building computers and went off > to be a grey-market Mac importer instead. The microdocable machines ran 4.2 as well (I think the first system was 4.1). There was a 4.3 port for the clippers done at Kent (?) but I don't think it ever really made it into the world. I think HLH were fairly wise to get out of the making-machines business: not very many people made it out of the 90s alive. --tim ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:00:12 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.9-20010723 ("Chord of Souls") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.4-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!news-in-sanjose!in.nntp.be!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91182 In alt.folklore.computers Tim Bradshaw wrote: > * Pete Fenelon wrote: > >> Hmmmmmmmmm. As well as the bagfull of AMDs running 4.1, HLH later >> started making Fairchild Clipper machines in the late 80s. Very dodgy >> 4.2 port, and HLH soon lost interest in building computers and went off >> to be a grey-market Mac importer instead. > > The microdocable machines ran 4.2 as well (I think the first system > was 4.1). There was a 4.3 port for the clippers done at Kent (?) but > I don't think it ever really made it into the world. > > I think HLH were fairly wise to get out of the making-machines > business: not very many people made it out of the 90s alive. > HLH were so rotten at supporting the (rather quick, rather nice) machines they built -- and never too clever about production-engineering them for reliability -- that they were probably right to get out of the game. Their 4.2 on the Clipper machines had some fun features. Like randomly swapping process UIDs... and given how many processes run as root most of the time... not a good idea! pete ###### From: James Lothian Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:16:33 +0100 Message-ID: <3BB10241.40278011@simul8.demon.co.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9o5ung$2un5$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <6h3d5l1l0s.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> <8167@purr.demon.co.uk> <6hd74m7lbw.fsf@angel.picsel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: simul8.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: simul8.demon.co.uk:212.228.120.103 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001455951 nnrp-01:16955 NO-IDENT simul8.demon.co.uk:212.228.120.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 93 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!simul8.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91147 August West wrote: > > bogus@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) writes: > > > >>The editor that came with PNX was SPY. > > > But only if you got your PERQ from SERC, as part of their Common Base > > > program. SPY came from UKC, along with GUIDE (an early hyper-text > > > system), and UPS (the amazing debugger). > > > All of these were also available on the Sun 3s that SERC moved on to, > > > and probably also the Whitechapel MG-1s that came between the PERQ and > > > the Sun as SERC's anointed machine. > > > > No, MG-1s had minimal software (some kind of BSD, much flakier than PNX, > > Yup, it was a BSD4.1 port, called 4.2-nix (pronounced fourtune-ix) > (done in the Isle of Man, I believe; PNX was ported at ICL Dalkieth.) > > The MG-1 initially shiped with Genix, NS's SysV port. 4.2-nix wasn't > that bad, in my experience - although the systems I used had lots of > add-on software, from Common Base and elsewhere, and alwys had the > latest set of patch wires installed to work around the failings of the > boars and the NS16032. OK, so it wasn't too, good, but not all that > bad. Hell, it supported GNU Emacs - what else do you need? > > > and no windowing system). > > The MG-1 certainly did have a windowing system, of sorts - the > kernel-based ORIEL. Rather poorer, but similar, to SunTools. > Not very featureful, but it was quite snappy. > > > They lasted long enough that people got the earliest and flakiest > > versions of X running on them. > > Never saw X running on an MG-1. > > > Perqs were rather neat, apart from sounding like you had a sawbench > > running beside your desk, > > Kept the heating bills down in winter, though. And the nise leel did > go down subrtanitally when the PERQ-2 came with metal case, rather > than the plastic lunch box that the PERQ-1 came it. > > > and their window systems were slick and > > responsive with a refreshing freedom from cluttery widgets. > > They were even better when running Accent (Mach's predecessor). And > did you know that the MG-1's display mask-shift rasterops were based > on the PERQ? And even Three River's original OS POS on the PERQ was > rather nice. > > > Anybody here ever write microcode for one? Can't do that on any > > current PC. > > Oh, yes. And what a mind-twister that was. > > > Guide could do things that you still can't do with HTML and current web > > browsers, and with amazing efficiency. The Mac version works fine on > > every 68K Mac I've tried, and probably works on every system up to OS X. > > Guide was good, but I still think the UPS debugger was the best bit of > software that the Common Base/UKC Software tools program produced. I > was using it regularly on SGI Indigos and Sun 4s at NAG until the mid > 90s - until UKC decided to start charging for it. > > > Orphaning this was a really stupid waste. > > UKC are still flogging it, you know. > > > I've still got a few Perq bitpad magnetizing strips around the house > > stuck to radiators. > > De-magnetizing surely? > > For those who need to know, there is more info about WCW and the MC-1 > available at http://www.galactic.co.uk/iainf/mg1.html > > -- > You're still doing things that I gave up years ago WCW also did another machine, the MG200, based on (I think) the 32032, which had wider external buses and was generally a lot faster. I got hold of an MG200 with a bizarre WCW-specific laser printer a few years ago, and spent a truly ghastly couple of weeks getting ghostscript to work with it -- driving the laser wasn't all that hard, but getting GS through the 42nix C compiler was not something I'd like to repeat! For a short time, skinflint that I am, I used this setup as a print-server for my vax... I'm sure I've seen a freeware version of UPS for Linux kicking around. James ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:42:56 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-140-64.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1001558577 20734 207.148.140.64 (27 Sep 2001 02:42:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:42:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91445 On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:26:42 GMT, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >In article > Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca "Brian Inglis" writes: > >> Then I discovered EVE/TPU supported commands, screens, multiple >> files and multiple windows, so I jumped on board that ship too! > >AIRI, EVE didn't come along until VMS v4.x (where .x may have been about >.3); it was certainly some considerable number of years after I first saw EVE was used at a PPOE some years after I first used a VAX at intro: not purchased as it cost more but was the same speed as an 11/70 on our workload. >VMS. Indeed, IIRC, I'd been using LSEdit for a year or two *before* EVE >was released; I think it was later re-engineered as a layer on top of >EVE. As was EDT, probably to speed up their response to something reasonable! ;^> Both TECO/VTEDIT and TPU/EVE were much more responsive on any system than EDT under the same conditions. BTW, was EDT written in Focal, ForTran, COBOL, or DiBOL? ;^> >> BTW, did they ever make a version of EDT that would start up in >> screen (Change) mode, or add any features which made it into >> something more than a dumb line editor with a screen/keypad >> interface? > >Come, come: EDT was a wonderful screen-mode editor; I first used it under You forgot the rest of the punctuation after the above ;-p >RSX-11M and RT-11 on a 11/40 with VT52s, and later under VMS. All it >needed to come up in screen-mode was a single line EDTINI.EDT (IIRC) >file. It was around many years before EVE/TPU, and one of the latter's >emulation modes was of EDT. IIRC EDT was also implemented as a TECO one liner! TECO (esp. with VTEDIT) was much more functional (e.g. wild card matches), and came with every DEC system, long before EDT was extracted from WORD-11 or wherever. Just airing my prejudices! YMMV Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:36:48 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1001613166 mail2news:19504 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91439 In article Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca "Brian Inglis" writes: > Both TECO/VTEDIT and TPU/EVE were much more responsive on any > system than EDT under the same conditions. BTW, was EDT written > in Focal, ForTran, COBOL, or DiBOL? ;^> You mean to say that you never looked at the source on the fiches? EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in BASIC, the file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in Bliss-32. ISTR that there was at least one other language involved as well. Of course, this is actually eminently sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure calling standard (and compiled BASIC). I don't know the source language(s) for other implementations of EDT, such as on the PDP-11. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:36:45 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 15 Message-ID: <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1519.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001620013 47714 194.134.170.244 (27 Sep 2001 19:46:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:46:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91348 On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:36:48 GMT bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: BK> EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in BASIC, the BK> file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in Bliss-32. ISTR that there BK> was at least one other language involved as well. Of course, this is BK> actually eminently sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure BK> calling standard (and compiled BASIC). Makes porting a bitch of a job though :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:00:01 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> User-Agent: tin/1.5.9-20010723 ("Chord of Souls") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.4-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91338 In alt.folklore.computers Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in BASIC, the > file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in Bliss-32. ISTR that there > was at least one other language involved as well. Of course, this is > actually eminently sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure > calling standard (and compiled BASIC). > Is this part of the old saw about DEC guys making sure some of the system was written in all the supported languages so that none of the runtimes could be unbundled? :) pete ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:31:53 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001623812 nnrp-10:16559 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91278 According to Pete Fenelon : > Is this part of the old saw about DEC guys making sure some of the system was > written in all the supported languages so that none of the runtimes could be > unbundled? :) I believe that the product that really *was* written in every conceivable language was AllInOne (or All-In-Bits as it was more commonly known), DEC's answer to Uniplex (on UNIX) and PROFS (on IBM mainframes) As an aside, users of modern PC-based office applications won't appreciate that all three of the above took an army of programmers several months to configure to even a moderate level of usability! Chris. ###### From: johnf@panix.com (John Francis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 27 Sep 2001 17:45:50 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9p06me$qjf$1@panix1.panix.com> References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1001627065 23194 166.84.1.1 (27 Sep 2001 21:44:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2001 21:44:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91296 In article , Chris Hedley wrote: >According to Pete Fenelon : >> Is this part of the old saw about DEC guys making sure some of the system was >> written in all the supported languages so that none of the runtimes could be >> unbundled? :) > >I believe that the product that really *was* written in every conceivable >language was AllInOne (or All-In-Bits as it was more commonly known), DEC's >answer to Uniplex (on UNIX) and PROFS (on IBM mainframes) Job security for KOALA programmers? (If AllInOne was the answer, it was a pretty silly question!) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general From: glaqua@tantiatech.com (Gordon Laqua) Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Organization: Tantia Technologies References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <9p06me$qjf$1@panix1.panix.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:30:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.161.82.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:30:58 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.cal.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91395 We referred to it as "All-At-Once" for its ability to use up any size machine you wanted to throw at it :-) In article <9p06me$qjf$1@panix1.panix.com>, johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: >In article , >Chris Hedley wrote: >>According to Pete Fenelon : >>> Is this part of the old saw about DEC guys making sure some of the system > was >>> written in all the supported languages so that none of the runtimes could be >>> unbundled? :) >> >>I believe that the product that really *was* written in every conceivable >>language was AllInOne (or All-In-Bits as it was more commonly known), DEC's >>answer to Uniplex (on UNIX) and PROFS (on IBM mainframes) > >Job security for KOALA programmers? > >(If AllInOne was the answer, it was a pretty silly question!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gordon Laqua, Manager, Backup Products | http://www.tantiatech.com/ Tantia Technologies Inc. | http://www.betasystems.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "I didn't become rich by writing a lot of cheques" - Bill Gates to Homer Simpson ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 237 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 00:42:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.229.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1001637744 199.174.229.53 (Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:42:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:42:24 PDT X-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:38:59 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91314 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > > I believe that the product that really *was* written in every conceivable > language was AllInOne (or All-In-Bits as it was more commonly known), DEC's > answer to Uniplex (on UNIX) and PROFS (on IBM mainframes) PROFS had some amount of internal politics. The core of PROFS was an early 0.x version of an internal email application called VMSG, an assembler-based application written by a programmer in the UK and freely distributed internally with source. After the co-op of an early deverlopment version by the PROFS group, the source distribution was restricted to two people by the author (me and one other person). A later dispute about whether the core of PROFS was really an early semi-functional, development version of VMSG was resolved by pointing at that every PROFS message in the world had the VMSG author's initials (HSL) tagged in an (not normally displayed) header control field. He was a very prolific programmer. One of his other applications that saw wide internal use was Parasite & Story ... basically a virtual terminal scripting application ... it allowed that anybody could run a (3270) terminal emulation to nearly any system on the internal network (ala telnet) with extensive scripting that including sophisticated output string matching and conditional programming (in some sense a precursor to some the later PC-based "screen-scraping" applications). from some dark archive (REX was the early, internal name for what is now called REXX) ... comment header from story assemble: * Generating the module :- * * GLOBAL MACLIB HSLMAC CMSLIB * HASM STORY ( NOPRINT * LOAD STORY ( CLEAR ORIGIN TRANS * GEN STORY MODULE A2 ( SYSTEM * * This program runs as a "pre-processor" in conjunction with * PARASITE. It is invoked by adding "X=STORY" to the PARASITE * command. i.e. * * PARASITE name X=STORY * * The Story progamme looks for a file with the attributes of * * "name STORY *" * * This implies that "name" should NOT contain none alphameric * characters. I can however contain an imbedded ".", this causes * The story program to use the characters up to but not * including the "." as the file name of the story file. This * allows one story file to be used by several differant names at * the same time. e.g. * * PARASITE H5.one X=STORY * * Will use a story file "H5 STORY *" but will assign the name of * "H5.one" to the port. * * REX variables can be used in the STORY's ( but cannot be set ) * they must be prefixed by "&". They may be used where ever a * "string" is used. * A reserved REX variable name "@STORY" can be used to force a * particular story to run regardles of the name used on the * PARASITE command. * * The file sould contain statements corresponding to the following * formats. * * EJECT * * * Statements :- * * label ID < ON | OFF | RESPONSE | 'string' > * * Defines the character string displayed in the ID field * If no "string" then the id reverts to whatever the user * specified with the "ID=" command. The string is limited * to 8 characters. * * Id1 ID '(.wait.)' * * * label IF token test token statement * * token can be a REX variable, a 'string' or ID * ( ID is the current ID value ) * test can be = or ^= * statement can be any valid STORY statement * * label If &REXVAR = 'WINVMC' Goto RLSS * * * label ITEM < SBA=xxxx > < 'string' > < SBA=xxxx > ..... * * Defines a data item to be used in a test or to be * sent to the port * * Item ITEM SBA=5B60 'LOGON MYID' * * * label WAIT < INDEFINITELY | < < UNTIL | WHILE > item > > * * Will cause the story to wait for the next block * of data, or until a block of data matches the * specifed data item ( item may be the label of * an ITEM statement or "'string'" ) * * Wait WAIT UNTIL 'VM READ' * * * label SEND aid < cursor < item < item ..... > > > * * Will send the specifed aid ( ENTER, PF1 .. PF24 ) * along with the cursor address ( 4 hex characters ) * and specifed data item ( item may be the label of * an ITEM statement or "'string'" ) * * Enter SEND ENTER 5B60 Item * EJECT * * label GOTO label * * Go to the specifed label. * * GOTO Loop * * * label WHEN < item < statement > > * * When the recieved data matches the specified * data item then execute the statement. * * Loop WHEN 'VM READ' SEND ENTER 5B60 * * label WHEN EVER( CASE name ) < item < statement > > * * This sets up a condition statement that is similar * to a PL/I "ON" condition I.E. when ever that test * is satisfied the "statement" will be executed. * "name" is any non-blank string used to identify * the "EVER" clause ( another WHEN EVER statement * with the same name will replace the current one ) * * Loop WHEN EVER( CASE one ) 'MORE...' SEND CLEAR * * EJECT * * Sample story files:- * * Sample 1 - Automatic logon of a userid * * ID '< wait >' * Wait Until 'VM/370' * Send CLEAR * Wait Until 'CP READ' * When ever( case ScrFull ) 'MORE...' Send CLEAR * Login Send ENTER 5B60 SBA=5B60 'LOGIN userid Q' * ID '< Pswd >' * * User will have to type in the password * What When 'VM READ' Goto Enter * When 'RECONNECT' Goto Begin * When 'ALREADY LOGGED ON' Goto Logoff * When 'PASSWORD INCORRECT' Goto Login * Wait * Goto What * * The ID is logged on elsewhere * Logoff Send ENTER 5B60 SBA=5B60 'LOGOFF' * Stop * * The ID has been reconnected * Begin Send ENTER 5B60 SBA=5B60 'BEGIN' * Stop * * The ID has been logged on * Enter ID '< wait >' * Send ENTER 5B60 * Wait Until 'R;' * Stop * EJECT * * Sample 2 * * * * * Collect VM LOGO's from the PVM network * * Rex variable "@NODE" contains the target node name * * * ID Off * Wait Until 'VM/370' * Send CLEAR * Wait Until 'CP READ' * Send ENTER _ SBA=_ 'DIAL VMNET' * Wait Until 'APPLICATION ID' * Send ENTER D5C6 SBA=D5C6 'KGVM3' * * Now on the main Kingston PVM node * Wait Until 'VM/370' * Send CLEAR * Wait Until 'CP READ' * Send ENTER _ SBA=_ 'DIAL PVM' * Wait Until 'Pass-Through' * Send ENTER 5D4A SBA=5DC5 &@NODE * * See if the target node is there * Through When 'NODE INVALID' Goto GiveUp * When 'LINK IS DOWN' Goto GiveUp * When 'VM/370' Goto GotIt * Wait * Goto Through * * It's there copy the LOGO * GotIt Wait Until 'VM/370' * Send Control 'C ' * Send ENTER _ '####' * Wait Until 'Pass-Through' * * Send "PA1" through RLSS to PVM * GiveUp Send PA1 * Wait Until 'LOCAL TERMINAL CONTROLLER' * Send PF2 * Wait Until 'DROP FROM' * Send CLEAR * * Now logoff from Kingston * Wait Until 'VM/370' * Send CLEAR * Wait Until 'CP READ' * Send ENTER _ SBA=_ 'LOGOFF' * Wait Until 'RUNNING' * Send ENTER * * Wait untill dropped from RLSS * Wait Until 'RLSDIO' * Send ENTER * Wait * Send ENTER * -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:21:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.230.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1001640092 199.174.230.25 (Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:21:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:21:32 PDT X-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:18:07 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91303 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > * > * GLOBAL MACLIB HSLMAC CMSLIB > * HASM STORY ( NOPRINT > * LOAD STORY ( CLEAR ORIGIN TRANS > * GEN STORY MODULE A2 ( SYSTEM some might think that story wasn't all that remarkable but also consider that its total executable size was under 8k bytes (instructions plus all data areas). another story ... retrieve updates/fixes from the online field engineering system, aka RETAIN: * * BUCKET -- Automatic PUT Bucket Retriever * ID '< wait >' Wait Until 'VM/370' Send CLEAR Wait Until 'CP READ' When ever( case ScrFull ) 'MORE...' Send CLEAR When ever( case Holding ) 'HOLDING' Send CLEAR Send ENTER 5B60 SBA=5B60 'DIAL PVM' Wait Until 'SPECIFIC NODE ID' Send ENTER 4166 SBA=4166 'RETAIN' check1 When 'FIELD ENGINEERING' goto go1 When 'SIGNED OFF' goto go1 When 'PORT NOT AVILABLE' goto quit Wait until 'SIGNED OFF' goto check1 go1 Send ENTER 5B6D Wait Until 'ENTER EMPLOYEE NUMBER/PASSWORD' Send ENTER 4C66 SBA=4C66 &PASSWD Wait Until 'ENTER UPGRADE/SUBSET IDS' Send ENTER 406B SBA=406B &SSID Wait Until 'CHG/INDEX' Send PF11 C450 SBA=4150 'Y' SBA=4160 'Y' SBA=C450 'Y' Wait Until 'OUTPUT QUED' Send ENTER Wait Until 'UPGRADE:' Send Control 'C ' Send ENTER 5952 Wait Until 'UPGRADE:' Send Control 'C ' When Ever( Case Wrap ) 'PG 001' goto done next Send ENTER 5952 Wait Until 'UPGRADE:' Send Control 'C ' Goto next done Send ENTER 5952 SBA=5952 'SIGNOFF' Wait Until 'TERMINAL' Send Enter 4F4F SBA=4F4F '####' Wait Until 'SPECIFIC NODE ID' quit Send PA1 Stop -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:32:28 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 24 Message-ID: <20010928083228.324bc6c8.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1106.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001696414 90020 194.134.203.87 (28 Sep 2001 17:00:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:00:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91364 On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:31:53 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> I believe that the product that really *was* written in every conceivable CH> language was AllInOne (or All-In-Bits as it was more commonly known), DEC's CH> answer to Uniplex (on UNIX) and PROFS (on IBM mainframes) CH> CH> As an aside, users of modern PC-based office applications won't appreciate Uniplex was a major contributing factor to me using troff to write letters :) Having set it up for users (who got to grips with the bits they needed quite quickly once they stopped fearing injury from the keyboard) I really couldn't face trying to set it up for myself :) CH> that all three of the above took an army of programmers several months to CH> configure to even a moderate level of usability! Configure *all* three ... masochism! Configuring any one was bad enough. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:59:35 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001671040 nnrp-13:4575 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91264 According to Anne & Lynn Wheeler : > PROFS had some amount of internal politics. The core of PROFS was an > early 0.x version of an internal email application called VMSG, an > assembler-based application written by a programmer in the UK and > freely distributed internally with source. After the co-op of an early > deverlopment version by the PROFS group, the source distribution was > restricted to two people by the author (me and one other person). > > A later dispute about whether the core of PROFS was really an early > semi-functional, development version of VMSG was resolved by pointing > at that every PROFS message in the world had the VMSG author's > initials (HSL) tagged in an (not normally displayed) header control > field. That sort of thing is all too common; I think I've had enough of that type of politics to last me a lifetime! What was the outcome? PROFS went on to be quite a profitable application, so I suppose that the issue regarding VMSG was either resolved or otherwise forced? > He was a very prolific programmer. One of his other applications that > saw wide internal use was Parasite & Story ... basically a virtual > terminal scripting application ... it allowed that anybody could run a > (3270) terminal emulation to nearly any system on the internal network > (ala telnet) with extensive scripting that including sophisticated > output string matching and conditional programming (in some sense a > precursor to some the later PC-based "screen-scraping" applications). > > from some dark archive (REX was the early, internal name for what is now > called REXX) ... comment header from story assemble: I wish I'd had something like this in my first job. I'd been given the task of getting the UNIX-based 3270 emulator to do an auto logon to the S/370 applications because the likes of sales and marketing complained so loudly about having to reenter their passwords (one of them was notable for sending a weekly report about how many keystrokes it took him...) For a rather green programmer just out of university, trying to deal with the assorted weirdness of SDLC data communications and 3270 screen layouts and all that they entailed with a peculiar C API on a variety of UNIX I wasn't familiar with was prematurely very aging! 12 years later I have the experience of hindsight and so realise I could've done it much better... I just hope that code is long dead & buried. Chris. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 28 Sep 2001 22:11:48 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 24 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87elorjtgb.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1001696831 31474 203.132.92.2 (28 Sep 2001 17:07:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:07:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Cache-Post-Path: osb-serv.angelina.pe!unknown@p146.perth01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91340 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:36:48 GMT > bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: > BK> EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in > BK> BASIC, the file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in > BK> Bliss-32. ISTR that there was at least one other language > BK> involved as well. Of course, this is actually eminently > BK> sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure calling > BK> standard (and compiled BASIC). > Makes porting a bitch of a job though :) Rubish! It ran on RT-11, RSX, RSTS/E, VMS, TOPS-10, and Tops-20 in both address sizes with NO change to the BLISS code. Totally portable for any sane target. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:36:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.224.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1001687785 199.174.224.135 (Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:36:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:36:25 PDT X-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:32:59 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91311 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > > That sort of thing is all too common; I think I've had enough of that > type of politics to last me a lifetime! > > What was the outcome? PROFS went on to be quite a profitable application, > so I suppose that the issue regarding VMSG was either resolved or otherwise > forced? > they (eventually) closed peterlee and he was transferred to hursely (peterlee closing not related to this) and told he could only work on cics (even on his own time) ... or it could mean his job. we participated in a little subterfuge ... i gave him a userid on a west coast system that he could use and we covered the tracks. PROFS group never did really fix their crippled, early development implementation of VMSG (superior technology doesn't necessarily count for much, as people have frequently discovered). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:33:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.226.44 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1001691233 199.174.226.44 (Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:33:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:33:53 PDT X-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:30:27 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91320 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > > PROFS group never did really fix their crippled, early development > implementation of VMSG (superior technology doesn't necessarily count > for much, as people have frequently discovered). and opportunity for some real topic drift http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#5 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 random internal network & internet http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#19 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#21 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:56:40 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001695367 nnrp-10:13301 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91270 According to Anne & Lynn Wheeler : > they (eventually) closed peterlee and he was transferred to hursely > (peterlee closing not related to this) and told he could only work on > cics (even on his own time) ... or it could mean his job. we > participated in a little subterfuge ... i gave him a userid on a west > coast system that he could use and we covered the tracks. Bummer. Peterlee (assuming it's the one in Durham) and Hurseley aren't exactly within commuting distance of each other. I like the subterfuge, though, sometimes it's the only way to circumvent the PHB's idiocy. > PROFS group never did really fix their crippled, early development > implementation of VMSG (superior technology doesn't necessarily count > for much, as people have frequently discovered). Sigh. It's a shame it has to be so frequently *re*discovered, as well... Chris. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 01 10:32:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9p4i1s$5p4$13@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ/tqBrNdcT6RBg2iq3RaFyWcnGc+mpbb/AbpzOt7iM4qRcYY0Ssona X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2001 13:24:12 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-114 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91499 In article , Craig Cockburn wrote: >Ann an sgriobhainn <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net>, sgriobh >Steve O'Hara-Smith >>On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:36:48 GMT >>bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >> >>BK> EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in BASIC, the >>BK> file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in Bliss-32. ISTR that there >>BK> was at least one other language involved as well. Of course, this is >>BK> actually eminently sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure >>BK> calling standard (and compiled BASIC). >> >> Makes porting a bitch of a job though :) >> >Too right - the amount of effort that went on at DEC porting from Bliss >32 to C back in the late 80's defied belief. > But C reminds me of BLISS (sorry, Dennis). Assuming that I've forgotten (on purpose) all I knew about BLISS and have had no exposure to C, would you give an example of a conversion problem? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 01 10:34:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9p4i5p$5p4$14@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYdRmod6nuujLqXS+X9G5Md/bQK6gYil701ISCNfZ9gqA85kcbucnjv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2001 13:26:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-114 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91503 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in BASIC, the >> file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in Bliss-32. ISTR that there >> was at least one other language involved as well. Of course, this is >> actually eminently sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure >> calling standard (and compiled BASIC). >> > People! RIGHT MARGIN 72. >Is this part of the old saw about DEC guys making sure >some of the system was >written in all the supported languages so that none >of the runtimes could be >unbundled? :) Huh? That makes no sense; must have been VMS brainwave. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 30 Sep 01 10:27:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYqUWJZ2AkH7ADnd25W62+JVeyh0vqpSUab1Zkzssi2eaPB0rXvbb3V X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 2001 13:19:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-76 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91505 In article <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:27:41 +0100 >Craig Cockburn wrote: > > >CC> > Makes porting a bitch of a job though :) >CC> > >CC> Too right - the amount of effort that went on at DEC porting from Bliss >CC> 32 to C back in the late 80's defied belief. > > Why not port a Bliss 32 compiler instead ? I presume the goal >was to run the code elsewhere, rather than just to reformulate it, or >were there problems with Bliss ? > We couldn't manage to port Bliss well across DEC platforms. And the logistics of getting a serious will-stop-us-from-shipping bug fixed was impossible. JMF was working within the 32-bit platform and had to jury-rig the Alpha code because the BLISS people wouldn't get to the BLISS bug for at least three years. BLISS of all flavors makes me break out in hives and swear words. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 01 10:38:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZDn3g5rwGHwdYyiczmIHeWCTP0Ff1XEJ6AW8DPFyn4a5FvsRIHdLyJ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2001 13:29:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-114 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91514 In article <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet>, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Craig Cockburn : >> Wasn't it ALL-IN-1, at least that's what the DEC trademark lawyers were >> trying to drum into us at the time. > >God knows. DEC marketing used to change their trademarks more often >than their socks. They wore socks? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 29 Sep 01 11:39:05 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <543.672T271T6993208@nowhere.in.particular> References: <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-283.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91569 In article cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >According to : > >> They wore socks? > >I wouldn't know; they would never lower themselves to be in the >vicinity of their technical people, so I never met one. You were lucky. Except that their complete lack of appreciation for the technical end meant that the promises your boss ordered you to keep for them were all the more outrageous. -- cgibbs@nowhere.in.particular (Charlie Gibbs) I'm switching ISPs - watch this space. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:43:46 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <2dg2p9.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <20010928083228.324bc6c8.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001706304 nnrp-02:16480 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.251.151.101!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91472 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Uniplex was a major contributing factor to me using troff to write > letters :) Having set it up for users (who got to grips with the bits they > needed quite quickly once they stopped fearing injury from the keyboard) > I really couldn't face trying to set it up for myself :) I didn't really mind Uniplex too much... at least not after said configuration had been performed, and it went down quite well with the users. Upgrading it was a bitch, though, and required the same amount of planning as a large military operation. > Configure *all* three ... masochism! Configuring any one was bad > enough. Err... that's not really what I meant! Just that each of them required a lot of work; Uniplex as mentioned above; PROFS I heard about indirectly when Philips spent at least six months trying to persuade users to move from VISTA (nobody knew why, as the people who did actually complete the move instantly wanted to move back again) and AllInOne was something I experienced briefly when I tried to install it on my VAXstation out of curiousity, having used it at DEC, and instantly thought better of it. Still, I was involved in the configuration of Uniplex multiple times, which definitely *is* masochistic; I got roped into Philips' ISA mob who ran the internal systems and ended up being largely responsible for that; then had the dubious pleasure of moving on to the Inland Revenue's support team, which was one of the biggest headaches I've had in my career (how I loved the way that some of their internal developers would quietly piggyback some untested major upgrade of theirs into our scheduled maintenance, then blame *us* when it all went horribly wrong... happened every time. And it was also a lesson to never, ever give anyone there your direct number as it would just involve reading large passages of the manual that they had on their desk to them on a regular basis, because they couldn't be arsed) Chris. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:43:29 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 30 Message-ID: <20010928214329.2eaaf8cd.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <87elorjtgb.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1003.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001725271 18979 194.134.202.240 (29 Sep 2001 01:01:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:01:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91566 On 28 Sep 2001 22:11:48 +0800 Paul Repacholi wrote: PR> Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: PR> PR> > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:36:48 GMT PR> > bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: PR> PR> > BK> EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in PR> > BK> BASIC, the file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in PR> > BK> Bliss-32. ISTR that there was at least one other language PR> > BK> involved as well. Of course, this is actually eminently PR> > BK> sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure calling PR> > BK> standard (and compiled BASIC). PR> PR> > Makes porting a bitch of a job though :) PR> PR> Rubish! It ran on RT-11, RSX, RSTS/E, VMS, TOPS-10, and Tops-20 PR> in both address sizes with NO change to the BLISS code. Totally And the BASIC and PL/1 ? PR> portable for any sane target. But being portable means *insane* targets :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cask1@yahoo.com (Kelly Donahue) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 28 Sep 2001 18:24:56 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.114.167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1001726697 22007 127.0.0.1 (29 Sep 2001 01:24:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2001 01:24:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91589 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote in message news:<1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk>... > In article > Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca "Brian Inglis" writes: > > > Both TECO/VTEDIT and TPU/EVE were much more responsive on any > > system than EDT under the same conditions. BTW, was EDT written > > in Focal, ForTran, COBOL, or DiBOL? ;^> > > You mean to say that you never looked at the source on the fiches? > > EDT was "fascinating"; IIRC, the string handling was done in BASIC, the > file handling in PL/I, and much of the rest in Bliss-32. ISTR that there > was at least one other language involved as well. Of course, this is > actually eminently sensible with the VAX/VMS architecture and procedure > calling standard (and compiled BASIC). > > I don't know the source language(s) for other implementations of EDT, > such as on the PDP-11. I think there was something called DKED which was KED (EDT) written in DIBOL to run on CTS-300 systems (multi-user RT-11 which ran only DIBOL programs). ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:38:14 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1486.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001773413 79026 194.134.170.211 (29 Sep 2001 14:23:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:23:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91543 On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:27:41 +0100 Craig Cockburn wrote: CC> > Makes porting a bitch of a job though :) CC> > CC> Too right - the amount of effort that went on at DEC porting from Bliss CC> 32 to C back in the late 80's defied belief. Why not port a Bliss 32 compiler instead ? I presume the goal was to run the code elsewhere, rather than just to reformulate it, or were there problems with Bliss ? -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:49:42 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 32 Message-ID: <20010929094942.4f97c22b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010928083228.324bc6c8.steveo@eircom.net> <2dg2p9.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1486.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001773413 79026 194.134.170.211 (29 Sep 2001 14:23:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:23:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91553 On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:43:46 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> > Configure *all* three ... masochism! Configuring any one was bad CH> > enough. CH> CH> Err... that's not really what I meant! Just that each of them CH> to the Inland Revenue's support team, which was one of the biggest CH> headaches I've had in my career (how I loved the way that some of Eh up, I was inside the IR involved with a project using a bunch load of quad processor 88K boxes from Motorola via Philips. CH> their internal developers would quietly piggyback some untested major CH> upgrade of theirs into our scheduled maintenance, then blame *us* It *wasn't* me! (I kept well away from operational systems). CH> when it all went horribly wrong... happened every time. And it was CH> also a lesson to never, ever give anyone there your direct number as CH> it would just involve reading large passages of the manual that they You're lucky there are some at the IR who would have insisted on you *turning up* to read it :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:58:13 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001756526 nnrp-02:7185 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91466 According to Craig Cockburn : > Wasn't it ALL-IN-1, at least that's what the DEC trademark lawyers were > trying to drum into us at the time. God knows. DEC marketing used to change their trademarks more often than their socks. Chris. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:41:02 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <20010928083228.324bc6c8.steveo@eircom.net> <2dg2p9.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20010929094942.4f97c22b.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001778128 nnrp-14:16836 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91480 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Eh up, I was inside the IR involved with a project using a bunch > load of quad processor 88K boxes from Motorola via Philips. Thought I recognised the name. :) Weren't you doing something with the TOBBI project at Basingtoke like Data Capture? The finished installation of all those boxes clustered together was an impressive looking sight - it even worked, too! (In fact a lot better than they'd anticipated; they had to find a bunch of other stuff for it to do to keep it busy) > It *wasn't* me! (I kept well away from operational systems). Don't worry, I know exactly who was responsible! It was a bunch of the IR's internal guys who used to pull this stunt. A lot of the external developers, consultants and contractors had run-ins with them as they'd cycle through all other parties looking for someone to blame. > You're lucky there are some at the IR who would have insisted on > you *turning up* to read it :) Who said I didn't? I had to make fairly frequent trips to Telford to sort out something "urgent" which turned out to be aforementioned RTFM tasks. I disovered the mentality behind internal IR politics whereupon somebody was set up to take the blame for a problem before it even happened - no matter how unlikely. Arse covering at its most extreme. Chris. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:41:49 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001778129 nnrp-14:16836 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91487 According to : > They wore socks? I wouldn't know; they would never lower themselves to be in the vicinity of their technical people, so I never met one. Chris. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:35:35 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 64 Message-ID: <20010930083535.66f3998a.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010928083228.324bc6c8.steveo@eircom.net> <2dg2p9.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20010929094942.4f97c22b.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0840.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001860166 53589 194.134.202.77 (30 Sep 2001 14:29:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:29:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91624 On Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:41:02 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : CH> > Eh up, I was inside the IR involved with a project using a bunch CH> > load of quad processor 88K boxes from Motorola via Philips. CH> CH> Thought I recognised the name. :) Weren't you doing something with CH> the TOBBI project at Basingtoke like Data Capture? That's me. I was the main designer of the proof of concept and scaling phases and then went off to do the data capture (see other thread). BTW: The rumour that the project name was inspired by a certain beer drinking vessel is *true*. CH> The finished installation of all those boxes clustered together was an CH> impressive looking sight - it even worked, too! (In fact a lot better Of course it did, I did the base design :) CH> than they'd anticipated; they had to find a bunch of other stuff for it CH> to do to keep it busy) I (over) spec'd those boxes and then Joe Bate doubled my specs :) They damn well should have been mostly idle. CH> > It *wasn't* me! (I kept well away from operational systems). CH> CH> Don't worry, I know exactly who was responsible! It was a bunch of CH> the IR's internal guys who used to pull this stunt. A lot of the CH> external developers, consultants and contractors had run-ins with them CH> as they'd cycle through all other parties looking for someone to blame. Oh *that* crew :) CH> > You're lucky there are some at the IR who would have insisted on CH> > you *turning up* to read it :) CH> CH> Who said I didn't? I had to make fairly frequent trips to Telford to Ah the city without a pub. Wonderful place Telford. By contrast at Basingstoke there was a wine bar in the bottom of the building, certain people apparently considered it part of the office. Did you ever get to stay at the favorite IR B&B just out of Telford, the one that caused people to take up jogging :) CH> sort out something "urgent" which turned out to be aforementioned RTFM CH> tasks. I disovered the mentality behind internal IR politics whereupon CH> somebody was set up to take the blame for a problem before it even CH> happened - no matter how unlikely. Arse covering at its most extreme. Also the home of. "How do you get 20 civil servants in a mini ?", "Promote one, put him in the driving seat, and watch the rest crawl up his arse". BTW: I failed to get the only souvenir I *really* wanted from the IR. A tie. Apperently an IR tie is a guaranteed discount in any restaurant. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 20:50:25 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <12t7p9.r04.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <20010929094942.4f97c22b.steveo@eircom.net> <20010930083535.66f3998a.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001880429 nnrp-08:27381 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 87 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed1.news.be.easynet.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91617 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > That's me. I was the main designer of the proof of concept and > scaling phases and then went off to do the data capture (see other thread). At last, now I know where I'd heard your name before! It's been bugging me for ages... > BTW: The rumour that the project name was inspired by a certain > beer drinking vessel is *true*. I'm glad to hear it. I remember a drinking session with some of the other contractors who were rather bleary-eyed after a hard day's coding; I was wearing my usual drinking clothes, namely jeans & a tour T-shirt, a Dr Feelgood one. It was a sad comment on our collective mental state when one of the guys thought that the slogan on the shirt said "R&B TOBBIC." Oh dear. > Of course it did, I did the base design :) Yeah, but I hope you realise how much longer you made our "special relationship" last because the IR guys kept asking us to do more stuff to soak up the extra CPU time! > I (over) spec'd those boxes and then Joe Bate doubled my specs :) > They damn well should have been mostly idle. I vaguely remember Joe Bate, but mostly by reputation because he was one of the names that used to repeatedly crop up in the then legendary tales about some of the political fights that used to occur between the architects, the Revenue and some of the DEC sales team. I was pretty much away from all that stuff, though, but I had my own problems to deal with... > Ah the city without a pub. Wonderful place Telford. By contrast > at Basingstoke there was a wine bar in the bottom of the building, certain > people apparently considered it part of the office. Telford was a great place to have your car nicked. The other Joe, one of the senior developers, used to have his car broken into on a weekly basis. The lack of pubs in the town itself wasn't a major issue, though: I spent most of my time at Ironbridge, which had some excellent pubs, one of which had a great blues night. Then there was the legendary Mr Dave's Balti House at Dawley. No cutlery and no booze licence, not that the latter part mattered as they were at pains to point out that there was an offy about 20 feet away that we were welcome to subsidise! > Did you ever get to stay at the favorite IR B&B just out of > Telford, the one that caused people to take up jogging :) Nah, being a DEC contractor I got to stay in a hotel the whole time; about the only perk I got, though: the "difficulties" I encountered is that I really got stitched up as I was "sold" to the Telford development team as some sort of ESQL/C guru and charged out at an exhorbitant rate; there was quite a bit of bad feeling when I turned up being a still rather green- around-the-gills system programmer who'd never done a major project until that time, and nobody realised that I was actually getting paid about 7% (no, that's not a typo) of said rate. And DEC still wouldn't even let me claim a morning newspaper on expenses - tight fisted gits! > Also the home of. "How do you get 20 civil servants in a mini ?", > "Promote one, put him in the driving seat, and watch the rest crawl up > his arse". Yeah, I saw a lot of that. Our team leader, the lovely Dot, was probably one of the most adept people at passing the buck I've ever seen. At one time I was the sole DEC representative on site, and working for her was absolute hell. It got to the point where I had to threaten to resign before they eventually took me off the project. > BTW: I failed to get the only souvenir I *really* wanted from the > IR. A tie. Apperently an IR tie is a guaranteed discount in any restaurant. I'd never heard about that. One of the things from that project I really didn't want to have at a restaurant was a certain Jim W, one of the sales managers. He had a nasty habit of choosing some ridiculously expensive vintage wine off the specialist wine list, then buggering off just before the bill had to be paid. We couldn't claim drinks on expenses, which meant that some other poor sod was lumbered with having to pay for a very, very expensive bottle. It's a shame that the diabolically bad managers made it an unpleasant place to work, as it was probably the most interesting thing I've ever worked on; from a purely technical perspective, I have a great fondness for those days. Chris. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 10:06:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9p9p9u$gq6$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <3BB81FE2.FF7663C8@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbOVnSqCIYC9HeggYaI5L8w7cwXdGcSG56aQL/n19n+HFzItucFitU3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:58:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-39 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91656 In article <3BB81FE2.FF7663C8@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >> On Sun, 30 Sep 01 10:27:31 GMT >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> > BLISS of all flavors makes me break out in hives and swear words. >> >> I see. Not a well named language then. >> >I guess Barb means that she breaks out in "Bliss-ters" > >[me ducking and running for cover...] > I've never heard that one...and I really set it up for you...didn't I? :-)))) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:17:31 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 11 Message-ID: <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p204.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001898070 89198 194.134.200.132 (1 Oct 2001 01:01:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 01:01:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91676 On Sun, 30 Sep 01 10:27:31 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > BLISS of all flavors makes me break out in hives and swear words. I see. Not a well named language then. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:15:31 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <20010929094942.4f97c22b.steveo@eircom.net> <20010930083535.66f3998a.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001884561 nnrp-13:26515 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91648 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Ah the city without a pub. Wonderful place Telford. By contrast > at Basingstoke there was a wine bar in the bottom of the building, certain > people apparently considered it part of the office. Forgot about this bit. :) Yes, I did encounter this place, which wasn't just *part* of their office, it *was* their office. Curious how the IR effectively had their own private entrance into the place... ISTR that the IR, at least at Basingstoke and Telford, probably had the longest lunch-breaks I've ever encountered. Frequently people would go out for lunch and just not come back; sometimes not even the following day as they'd be nursing a hangover. I assume that this was the reason that they actually had a fully equipped pub in the middle of one of the Telford buildings (the one that lives up to the description of the Ministry of Truth in "1984" in terms of looks) that stayed open all day; the restau- rant did a really nice curry as well. I put on a bloody lot of weight when I worked there... The Cardiff mob were a different breed, though. Lunch was about 5 minutes in that horrible canteen, then back to work. Nobody ever went down the pub for lunch, or even after work. Chris. ###### Message-ID: <3BB81FE2.FF7663C8@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 05:51:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.179.111.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc2.tx.home.com 1001915493 24.179.111.125 (Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:51:33 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:51:33 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91704 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Sep 01 10:27:31 GMT > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > BLISS of all flavors makes me break out in hives and swear words. > > I see. Not a well named language then. > I guess Barb means that she breaks out in "Bliss-ters" [me ducking and running for cover...] -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:20:29 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 53 Message-ID: <20011001082029.656ac47c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010929094942.4f97c22b.steveo@eircom.net> <20010930083535.66f3998a.steveo@eircom.net> <12t7p9.r04.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1475.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1001955615 17526 194.134.170.200 (1 Oct 2001 17:00:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:00:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91678 On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 20:50:25 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> I vaguely remember Joe Bate, but mostly by reputation because he was one CH> of the names that used to repeatedly crop up in the then legendary tales CH> about some of the political fights that used to occur between the Yeah, political fights were his speciality. He was part of the core team from the earliest days of the project and I still remember with delight one early battle. We had decided after making a decent proof of concept that the UI for the real thing *needed* X (OK we wanted X, but we made a good case). Unfortunately the power that was said "The TOBBI team shall have X Terminals over my dead body", *in writing*. We showeed it to Joe. Three days later we took delivery of six NCD X terminals and Joe sent in a memo complaining that the delivery was short one dead body. Watching Joe in action from close range was an education. CH> much away from all that stuff, though, but I had my own problems to deal CH> with... Being in the way of Joe tended to cause all sorts of problems :) CH> Then there was the legendary Mr Dave's Balti House at Dawley. No cutlery CH> and no booze licence, not that the latter part mattered as they were at CH> pains to point out that there was an offy about 20 feet away that we were CH> welcome to subsidise! Ah yes, I had almost forgotten the place, fond memories. CH> managers. He had a nasty habit of choosing some ridiculously expensive CH> vintage wine off the specialist wine list, then buggering off just before CH> the bill had to be paid. We couldn't claim drinks on expenses, which meant Ah, one of the specialist niche occupiers from the swivel service. CH> It's a shame that the diabolically bad managers made it an unpleasant place CH> to work, as it was probably the most interesting thing I've ever worked on; CH> from a purely technical perspective, I have a great fondness for those days. It was a fun project. I still cherish the memory of being able to call the senior managers of major banks and have them on the defensive the whole way through, while I carefully told them about the technical shortcomings in their returns. I also cherish the memory of what I did to a classic lexer/parser design to make the name extracter :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: johnf@panix.com (John Francis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 1 Oct 2001 13:00:10 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com> References: <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1001955516 12888 166.84.1.1 (1 Oct 2001 16:58:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2001 16:58:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91660 In article <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet>, > cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>According to Craig Cockburn : >>> Wasn't it ALL-IN-1, at least that's what the DEC trademark lawyers were >>> trying to drum into us at the time. >> >>God knows. DEC marketing used to change their trademarks more often >>than their socks. > >They wore socks? Oh yes. In some cases (Ashley Grayson springs to mind ...) extremely well-tailored socks that perfectly matched their bespoke tailoring. Others wore them over their heads to avoid being recognised. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 02 Oct 01 09:40:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGPKi5saXOMJCK7XagV6u3s5TaAbx9fXvA4eW8vQJnEqQzpXFpLwRc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2001 12:32:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91752 In article <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net>, Huw Davies wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Sep 01 10:27:31 GMT >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>> BLISS of all flavors makes me break out in hives and swear words. > >> I see. Not a well named language then. > >Well it's still my favorite programming language (even Bliss-32 with >the "strange" changes from BLISS-10 (which is the one and only >"true" BLISS :-) You sure do know how to red button a gal. The problems of maintaining BLISS were so bad that a bug in BLIS10 was fixed in the monitor instead (BLISS firmly believed in modifying the use bits). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 02 Oct 01 09:37:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9pcbui$29q$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net> <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYDeI3Be9iZmUvd2ftzsz4JZpxMNWWINnoW+bg2AEx2En1dd0E3VZ/9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2001 12:29:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91773 In article <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com>, johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: >In article <9p4icm$5p4$15@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>In article <5f24p9.701.ln@teabag.cbhnet>, >> cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>According to Craig Cockburn : >>>> Wasn't it ALL-IN-1, at least that's what the DEC trademark lawyers were >>>> trying to drum into us at the time. >>> >>>God knows. DEC marketing used to change their trademarks more often >>>than their socks. >> >>They wore socks? > >Oh yes. In some cases (Ashley Grayson springs to mind ...) extremely >well-tailored socks that perfectly matched their bespoke tailoring. Now there's a name from my long ago past. I almost worked for him (marketing machine operator)but I decided to go the Tape Prep route instead. > >Others wore them over their heads to avoid being recognised. Nah. That's what the suits were for. I'm sure I'd have noticed people walking about with their heads in a sock. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 03 Oct 01 11:26:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <9pf6nm$8kp$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVabtenZBK47fXqpUT5gInpd7K++3IkYBW8ZlkEuzDJunnLRG/twI311 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 2001 14:18:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.nikoma.de!tiscalinetde!f.de.uu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-79 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91775 In article , Huw Davies wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> You sure do know how to red button a gal. > >Typical user then. (I'm sufficiently old for BAH to remember >real nasty SPRs that I used to generate, one of which was >peripherally BLISS related :-) Yup. I also remember wondering if your typist kept making a typo when filling the submitter name. > >> The problems of maintaining BLISS were so bad that a bug in BLIS10 >> was fixed in the monitor instead (BLISS firmly believed in >> modifying the use bits). > >Now was this a problem with BLISS or just the maintainers? Neither. It was a "getting the product out of the GD door" problem under the Project Notebook strictures. Just thinking about a field test plan caused one to look for a gun with the intent of adding a hole to one's head. Since sources weren't shipped and the BLIS10 EXE were shipped on a gazillion other products' tapes, even if we could have field tested it, shipping it to the field was impossible. > ... I've >read most of the BLISS-10 code and once you get over how it's >written (just different from the way I code) it's relatively >easy going! > >PS I still have the source listing and it sits in a proper >132 column folder right here next to my left knee... And, kind sir, what is sitting at your right knee? /BAH ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:08:04 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <20010930083535.66f3998a.steveo@eircom.net> <12t7p9.r04.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20011001082029.656ac47c.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1001971372 nnrp-10:3814 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91757 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Yeah, political fights were his speciality. He was part of the core > team from the earliest days of the project and I still remember with > delight one early battle. We had decided after making a decent proof of > concept that the UI for the real thing *needed* X (OK we wanted X, but we > made a good case). Unfortunately the power that was said "The TOBBI team > shall have X Terminals over my dead body", *in writing*. We showeed it to > Joe. Three days later we took delivery of six NCD X terminals and Joe sent > in a memo complaining that the delivery was short one dead body. :) Nice. We (or at least I) tried to arrange this as I had a duff 17" NCD colour terminal that put 240 VAC through its chassis; I tried to get Jim to sell it to the IR but was stopped in my tracks by my manager, who suggested that it might be undiplomatic. > Watching Joe in action from close range was an education. I think I prefer my position at the time, which was to watch from a very long range. > Ah yes, I had almost forgotten the place, fond memories. Very messy memories. The other "legendary" thing about Dawley in general is that it's claimed that its inhabitants have the lowest average IQ in the country. > Ah, one of the specialist niche occupiers from the swivel service. No, this was one of DEC's own, in competition with the IR's finest. > It was a fun project. I still cherish the memory of being able to > call the senior managers of major banks and have them on the defensive the > whole way through, while I carefully told them about the technical > shortcomings in their returns. Yeah, I've heard several tales about this sort of thing, most of which I doubt I can repeat as it's probably in contravention of something or other. > I also cherish the memory of what I did to a classic lexer/parser > design to make the name extracter :) To labour the point a bit, you may be interested to know that this particular piece of code became quite a legend in its own right for quite some time after you'd written it. Sadly, when I left the project I had a bizarre pang of honesty and didn't steal a copy of any of the source code, something I really regret now. Chris. ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 2 Oct 2001 10:15:12 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 17 Message-ID: <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <9pc43g$e4c@library2.airnews.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Oct 2 05:15:12 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !]Z,a1k-WTq8.):A9`/4DK]eZ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!news-in-sanjose!in.nntp.be!easynews!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news-west.rr.com!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91740 In alt.folklore.computers Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 30 Sep 01 10:27:31 GMT > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> BLISS of all flavors makes me break out in hives and swear words. > I see. Not a well named language then. Well it's still my favorite programming language (even Bliss-32 with the "strange" changes from BLISS-10 (which is the one and only "true" BLISS :-) -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:25:49 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 66 Message-ID: <20011002192549.535ca8b4.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010930083535.66f3998a.steveo@eircom.net> <12t7p9.r04.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20011001082029.656ac47c.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1151.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1002043559 9755 194.134.203.132 (2 Oct 2001 17:25:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:25:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91818 On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:08:04 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> > in a memo complaining that the delivery was short one dead body. CH> CH> :) Nice. We (or at least I) tried to arrange this as I had a duff 17" CH> NCD colour terminal that put 240 VAC through its chassis; I tried to get CH> Jim to sell it to the IR but was stopped in my tracks by my manager, who CH> suggested that it might be undiplomatic. Wise man, it can be unwise to pee off the IR (see below). CH> > Watching Joe in action from close range was an education. CH> CH> I think I prefer my position at the time, which was to watch from a very CH> long range. Like most dangerous weapons there are two safe areas, far away and near the controls :) CH> Very messy memories. The other "legendary" thing about Dawley in general CH> is that it's claimed that its inhabitants have the lowest average IQ in the CH> country. Reduced only by visits from the IR :) CH> Yeah, I've heard several tales about this sort of thing, most of which CH> I doubt I can repeat as it's probably in contravention of something or CH> other. I'm probably in contravention even admitting that I was there :) CH> > I also cherish the memory of what I did to a classic lexer/parser CH> > design to make the name extracter :) CH> CH> To labour the point a bit, you may be interested to know that this particular CH> piece of code became quite a legend in its own right for quite some time after CH> you'd written it. , It wasn't *that* strange. OK, I'll admit that I couldn't get anybody to peer review it (they couldn't understand the design never mind the code) until David C. finally penned his name to it saying "It works doesn't it ?", but that was because nobody else understood how an *ordinary* parser worked, never mind one that had ambiguity support as a prerequisite :) CH> Sadly, when I left the project I had a bizarre pang of CH> honesty and didn't steal a copy of any of the source code, something I really CH> regret now. Don't regret it. One person *did* take a copy of the code when they left the project. We found out when another programmer was looking at their shell history to find out just what they had been doing. Among the edits of the *wrong* shell history was a copy to tape of the entire system. The whole thing got escalated through the roof, the individual in question (who was by then about three weeks into a contract with another civil service department) was visited by a IR special investigation team (the ones who turn up when you are expected to get violent about not declaring taxes) to search for the tape and question him about it. No tape, no prosecution but his contract with that other department terminated suddenly and I gather that he will never see a government related contract again. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:13:22 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <240dp9.uc2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <20011001082029.656ac47c.steveo@eircom.net> <20011002192549.535ca8b4.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1002050540 nnrp-14:2507 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91742 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Wise man, it can be unwise to pee off the IR (see below). Just as well I wasn't too serious about it, then! I've heard that the IR's internal security people are a lot scarier than practially any other government agency. > I'm probably in contravention even admitting that I was there :) I must admit I'd also wondered about this; not that I have anything useful to divulge, but that's not always the point. > , It wasn't *that* strange. OK, I'll admit that I couldn't > get anybody to peer review it (they couldn't understand the design never > mind the code) until David C. finally penned his name to it saying "It > works doesn't it ?", but that was because nobody else understood how an > *ordinary* parser worked, never mind one that had ambiguity support as > a prerequisite :) Unfortunately, I'd never seen it myself, I was too tied up with the rather mundane tasks of shuffling data off tapes into a format the database could understand (when I started, somebody suggested that I just take a copy of the whole tape and submit it to the relevant subroutine using a massive ServiceRequest call... I tactfully hinted that IPC might not take kindly to a multi-megabyte request and rejigged that particular spec, probably making enemies from day one!) > Don't regret it. One person *did* take a copy of the code when they > left the project. We found out when another programmer was looking at their > shell history to find out just what they had been doing. Among the edits > of the *wrong* shell history was a copy to tape of the entire system. The > whole thing got escalated through the roof, the individual in question (who > was by then about three weeks into a contract with another civil service > department) was visited by a IR special investigation team (the ones who > turn up when you are expected to get violent about not declaring taxes) to > search for the tape and question him about it. No tape, no prosecution > but his contract with that other department terminated suddenly and I > gather that he will never see a government related contract again. Now that's something I could do without; sounds like I made the right call, whatever the reasoning. Although it was strange being given that level of clearance in the first place, being a long-time Hawkwind fan and beer consumer I thought I'd get an automatic ban! Still, it was 10 years ago, probably wouldn't happen now. Chris. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:02:51 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 53 Message-ID: <20011002230251.59c35cf1.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20011001082029.656ac47c.steveo@eircom.net> <20011002192549.535ca8b4.steveo@eircom.net> <240dp9.uc2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1087.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1002070873 94993 194.134.203.68 (3 Oct 2001 01:01:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:01:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.64.68.27!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91814 On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:13:22 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> Just as well I wasn't too serious about it, then! I've heard that the CH> IR's internal security people are a lot scarier than practially any other CH> government agency. Well, there is the VAT section of Customs & Excise, apparently they make the IR team seem friendly and helpful. I do not wish to find out by direct comparison. CH> I must admit I'd also wondered about this; not that I have anything useful CH> to divulge, but that's not always the point. I'm pretty sure I know what *not* to talk about :) CH> Unfortunately, I'd never seen it myself, I was too tied up with the rather I also do not have a copy. The origin of the concept is amusing. It all started in the proof of concept, when the other programmer found himself unable to cope with the task in hand and had been removed from the project without replacement. I got handed the problem to crack the first time, with a *two day* deadline to show a working module. It took about thirty seconds looking at sample data to realise that only a rule based system stood a hope and another five minutes to conclude that YACC was the only thing to hand that came close (and being to hand was *vital*). Amazingly enough it was possible to do a passable job with a YACC grammer. The final design came from an analysis of the shortcomings of using a parser for a fixed unambiguous grammer for the task in hand. It was an obvious extension to detect all possible valid interpretations of the input and try and minimise discarded noise. CH> mundane tasks of shuffling data off tapes into a format the database could CH> understand (when I started, somebody suggested that I just take a copy of CH> the whole tape and submit it to the relevant subroutine using a massive CH> ServiceRequest call... I tactfully hinted that IPC might not take kindly Hmm, I can think of one or two who would think of that, initials JS by any chance ?. We *did* keep images of tapes in BLOBs, but they were streamed into and out of them :) CH> call, whatever the reasoning. Although it was strange being given that CH> level of clearance in the first place, being a long-time Hawkwind fan CH> and beer consumer I thought I'd get an automatic ban! You do know the *real* reason I moved from Telford back to Basingstoke don't you ? -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:44:54 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <20011002192549.535ca8b4.steveo@eircom.net> <240dp9.uc2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20011002230251.59c35cf1.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1002113062 nnrp-12:18884 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91763 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Well, there is the VAT section of Customs & Excise, apparently > they make the IR team seem friendly and helpful. I do not wish to find > out by direct comparison. Neither do I. But it's their internal security people who wear the dark suits and shades that worry me...! > I also do not have a copy. The origin of the concept is amusing. > It all started in the proof of concept, when the other programmer found > himself unable to cope with the task in hand and had been removed from > the project without replacement. I got handed the problem to crack the > first time, with a *two day* deadline to show a working module. It took > about thirty seconds looking at sample data to realise that only a rule > based system stood a hope and another five minutes to conclude that YACC > was the only thing to hand that came close (and being to hand was *vital*). > Amazingly enough it was possible to do a passable job with a YACC grammer. > > The final design came from an analysis of the shortcomings of > using a parser for a fixed unambiguous grammer for the task in hand. It > was an obvious extension to detect all possible valid interpretations of > the input and try and minimise discarded noise. Sounds interesting. I've seen other routines that do a similar thing but they tend to be rather simplistic and don't work well for anything other than simple typos, and even then as long as they have the right number of letters... The two day deadline sounds a bit tough, even for that project. Nice to hear that YACC came to the rescue, yet again. :) > Hmm, I can think of one or two who would think of that, initials > JS by any chance ?. We *did* keep images of tapes in BLOBs, but they > were streamed into and out of them :) I suspect this person was the culprit, with a first attempt at some code coming from one RR (internal developer, definitely more at home on ICL big iron) The data was one of the BLOB things, which is why someone had the bright idea of doing the whole thing in one go... I've heard that Informix' handling of BLOBs was a bit tough in that once it was accessed, you were committed and had to go all the way, a (mis)understanding that may have explained (although definitely not excused) that design. Still, I'm not going to carp, I've no doubt some of my code at the time was atrocious; not helped by the fact that some of the later "good ideas" they wanted implementing were a bit wooly in the detail! > You do know the *real* reason I moved from Telford back to > Basingstoke don't you ? Yes. :) Chris. ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 3 Oct 2001 12:09:15 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 25 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <9pev5b$ei2@library2.airnews.net> References: <1001284002snz@dsl.co.uk> <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Oct 3 07:09:15 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !]iXn1k-X1q[EEZFV&#$I1pO_ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91739 In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > You sure do know how to red button a gal. Typical user then. (I'm sufficiently old for BAH to remember real nasty SPRs that I used to generate, one of which was peripherally BLISS related :-) > The problems of maintaining BLISS were so bad that a bug in BLIS10 > was fixed in the monitor instead (BLISS firmly believed in > modifying the use bits). Now was this a problem with BLISS or just the maintainers? I've read most of the BLISS-10 code and once you get over how it's written (just different from the way I code) it's relatively easy going! PS I still have the source listing and it sits in a proper 132 column folder right here next to my left knee... -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 04 Oct 01 11:15:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9phqf0$s0f$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZUjhMlheOFNhdhyn3rtnVHbsEZiaPoxVvUtQI2FpVcR9ttoriTHwRi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2001 14:07:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-73 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91888 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: > > /BAH> The problems of maintaining BLISS were so bad that a bug in BLIS10 > /BAH> was fixed in the monitor instead (BLISS firmly believed in > /BAH> modifying the use bits). > >IMHO the problems were in maintaining the maintainers, not in the language >itself :-) You were earlier than I was. When I had my BLISS encounter, the maintainer was Eric McGrath and he was one of the few people capable of doing both compiler code and operating system code well. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 04 Oct 01 11:13:41 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9phqc6$s0f$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com> <9pcbui$29q$7@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbvkEpCvRTfcw7rqWqJmEWrpgLkmPPqEeAFgi/CfLmi+FxFNv7RxAWU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2001 14:05:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-73 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91889 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: > > /BAH> In article <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com>, > /BAH> johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: > >> Oh yes. In some cases (Ashley Grayson springs to mind ...) extremely > >> well-tailored socks that perfectly matched their bespoke tailoring. > > /BAH> Now there's a name from my long ago past. I almost worked for > /BAH> him (marketing machine operator)but I decided to go the Tape > /BAH> Prep route instead. > >ObAFCTriviaQuestion: What was his name before he became Ashley Grayson? Actually, it's Ashley Grayson the Third. Damned if I can remember. I'd forgotten about that little piece of lore. Were you around when we had that contest to guess Alan Pommer's first name (his initials were RaP with a smiley in the a). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:40:09 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 83 Message-ID: <20011003204009.62fb981b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20011002192549.535ca8b4.steveo@eircom.net> <240dp9.uc2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20011002230251.59c35cf1.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0938.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1002157275 58589 194.134.202.175 (4 Oct 2001 01:01:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 01:01:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.uncensored-news.com!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!news-in.superfeed.net!local-out2.newsfeeds.com!propagator-SanJose!news-in-sanjose!in.nntp.be!easynews!uunet!dfw.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91919 On Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:44:54 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> Neither do I. But it's their internal security people who wear the dark CH> suits and shades that worry me...! Reasonable, they are worrying. CH> > The final design came from an analysis of the shortcomings of CH> > using a parser for a fixed unambiguous grammer for the task in hand. It CH> > was an obvious extension to detect all possible valid interpretations of CH> > the input and try and minimise discarded noise. CH> CH> Sounds interesting. I've seen other routines that do a similar thing but CH> they tend to be rather simplistic and don't work well for anything other CH> than simple typos, and even then as long as they have the right number of CH> letters... Typos weren't the problem, not for that bit anyway, typo handling came at a *much* later stage and involved some *really* odd algorithms that took full advantage of available contextual information. The problem this code faced was that while it was possible to describe the various valid combinations that made up meaningful entities it wasn't possible to do so without ambiguity (the ambiguity was *real*). To make matters worse it wasn't possible to tokenise in the normal way, each separated token had to be tagged with a *list* of possible roles. The final complication was that there was noise between the clumps of meaningful text in the record some of which could only be distinguished from valid tokens by context. The end result of running the parser over a record was a set of parse trees (quite flat ones) describing the various valid interpretations of the data in terms of noise separated valid entities. The next stage applied heuristics to select the 'best' interpretation. It wasn't quite that pure because the list was partly pruned at parse time to eliminate some classes of clear losers for efficiency. CH> The two day deadline sounds a bit tough, even for that project. Nice to CH> hear that YACC came to the rescue, yet again. :) TO be fair it wasn't really a deadline, just what was needed to get the project back on schedule. It got hit though, thanks to YACC, although I did get strange looks from JS and DC as I mumbled "need rules, rules, what does rules", then a pause and a loud shout of "YACC". CH> I suspect this person was the culprit, with a first attempt at some code CH> coming from one RR (internal developer, definitely more at home on ICL A yes, one of the group of COBOL retrainees. I was around when they arrived and started their stream of training courses, many glazed eyes were seen. These people came from ICL/COBOL and got hit in rapid succession with courses on UNIX, C, Motif, RDBMS principles, Informix 4GL and a couple of others. They were then expected to *use* all of this. Some coped, some were probably never useful. CH> big iron) The data was one of the BLOB things, which is why someone had CH> the bright idea of doing the whole thing in one go... I've heard that CH> Informix' handling of BLOBs was a bit tough in that once it was accessed, CH> you were committed and had to go all the way, a (mis)understanding that CH> may have explained (although definitely not excused) that design. There was a way of handling it in chunks (details fade now). We got pretty free with the memory usage but not *that* free. CH> Still, I'm not going to carp, I've no doubt some of my code at the time CH> was atrocious; not helped by the fact that some of the later "good ideas" CH> they wanted implementing were a bit wooly in the detail! Hmm, you never saw the original specs for the project then :) CH> > You do know the *real* reason I moved from Telford back to CH> > Basingstoke don't you ? CH> CH> Yes. :) That's all right then. It was one hell of a way of getting a paid holiday as a contractor :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 03 Oct 2001 13:44:21 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com> <9pcbui$29q$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1002152661 4714 128.171.80.135 (3 Oct 2001 23:44:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 2001 23:44:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91946 >>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: /BAH> In article <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com>, /BAH> johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: >> Oh yes. In some cases (Ashley Grayson springs to mind ...) extremely >> well-tailored socks that perfectly matched their bespoke tailoring. /BAH> Now there's a name from my long ago past. I almost worked for /BAH> him (marketing machine operator)but I decided to go the Tape /BAH> Prep route instead. ObAFCTriviaQuestion: What was his name before he became Ashley Grayson? ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 03 Oct 2001 13:47:02 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1002152823 4714 128.171.80.135 (3 Oct 2001 23:47:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 2001 23:47:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91942 >>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: /BAH> The problems of maintaining BLISS were so bad that a bug in BLIS10 /BAH> was fixed in the monitor instead (BLISS firmly believed in /BAH> modifying the use bits). IMHO the problems were in maintaining the maintainers, not in the language itself :-) Nothead ###### From: johnf@panix.com (John Francis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 3 Oct 2001 20:04:21 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9pg925$4dl$1@panix2.panix.com> References: <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com> <9pcbui$29q$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1002153762 1767 166.84.1.2 (4 Oct 2001 00:02:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2001 00:02:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:91867 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: > > /BAH> In article <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com>, > /BAH> johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: > >> Oh yes. In some cases (Ashley Grayson springs to mind ...) extremely > >> well-tailored socks that perfectly matched their bespoke tailoring. > > /BAH> Now there's a name from my long ago past. I almost worked for > /BAH> him (marketing machine operator)but I decided to go the Tape > /BAH> Prep route instead. > >ObAFCTriviaQuestion: What was his name before he became Ashley Grayson? Darned if I know! I first met him in 1972 (although he was one of the few people I recognised at the recent DEC retrospective; he hasn't changed all that much). ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 04 Oct 2001 14:31:59 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com> <9pcbui$29q$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9phqc6$s0f$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1002241920 8327 128.171.80.135 (5 Oct 2001 00:32:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 2001 00:32:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92078 >>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: /BAH> In article , /BAH> Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: >> >> /BAH> In article <9pa7eq$mqp$1@panix1.panix.com>, >> /BAH> johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: >> >> Oh yes. In some cases (Ashley Grayson springs to mind ...) extremely >> >> well-tailored socks that perfectly matched their bespoke tailoring. >> >> /BAH> Now there's a name from my long ago past. I almost worked for >> /BAH> him (marketing machine operator)but I decided to go the Tape >> /BAH> Prep route instead. >> >> ObAFCTriviaQuestion: What was his name before he became Ashley Grayson? /BAH> Actually, it's Ashley Grayson the Third. Damned if I can remember. /BAH> I'd forgotten about that little piece of lore. IIRC it changed from Richard Tilleux about the time he finished at LSUNO - '69? /BAH> Were you around when we had that contest to guess Alan Pommer's /BAH> first name (his initials were RaP with a smiley in the a). Nope. Nothead ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 08 Oct 01 09:24:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9ps5hg$eho$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <9pf6nm$8kp$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <9D2214954DE6FFB2.C48A4215CCC7BEC7.1CA5A9FF899B5D4C@lp.airnews.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbpawwAOf0lCsh18TnTJ4batUWym9nJsfP46nhHiBIjvBzij/nbBcBx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 12:17:52 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-39 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92251 In article <9D2214954DE6FFB2.C48A4215CCC7BEC7.1CA5A9FF899B5D4C@lp.airnews.net>, Huw Davies wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Yup. I also remember wondering if your typist kept >> making a typo when filling the submitter name. > >Typist? I used to fill out the SPRs myself. If your name was mistyped, it would have had to be a typist who did it. I assumed that you wouldn't mistype your own name every time. :-) > >>>PS I still have the source listing and it sits in a proper >>>132 column folder right here next to my left knee... > > >> And, kind sir, what is sitting at your right knee? > >Desk draws filled with CDs (both data and audio). Boy, all of a sudden I feel ancient. My data container used to be a foot rest (RP06). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 8 Oct 2001 09:36:20 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9D2214954DE6FFB2.C48A4215CCC7BEC7.1CA5A9FF899B5D4C@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <9prs2k$10g@library2.airnews.net> References: <1001572608snz@dsl.co.uk> <20010927213645.4d248d44.steveo@eircom.net> <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <9pf6nm$8kp$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Oct 8 04:36:20 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !X'&[1k-Xc`E\]pEFNu+CjUPd (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92240 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Yup. I also remember wondering if your typist kept > making a typo when filling the submitter name. Typist? I used to fill out the SPRs myself. >>PS I still have the source listing and it sits in a proper >>132 column folder right here next to my left knee... > And, kind sir, what is sitting at your right knee? Desk draws filled with CDs (both data and audio). -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 9 Oct 2001 12:01:39 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3A525FD15BD56AAD.D029B9CB1704CA1C.788B84B8D90254A6@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <9puov3$9lq@library1.airnews.net> References: <20010929093814.60ba3805.steveo@eircom.net> <9p764c$fqq$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010930171731.7464d25d.steveo@eircom.net> <596F87D1C4021149.88209499C63A9CF5.3C55367EDBF7C7DF@lp.airnews.net> <9pcc46$29q$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <9pf6nm$8kp$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <9D2214954DE6FFB2.C48A4215CCC7BEC7.1CA5A9FF899B5D4C@lp.airnews.net> <9ps5hg$eho$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Oct 9 07:01:39 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: ![bK(1k-XdB3*#.FV&#$I1pOu (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp.flash.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92291 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article > <9D2214954DE6FFB2.C48A4215CCC7BEC7.1CA5A9FF899B5D4C@lp.airnews.net>, > Huw Davies wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Yup. I also remember wondering if your typist kept >>> making a typo when filling the submitter name. >> >>Typist? I used to fill out the SPRs myself. > If your name was mistyped, it would have had to be a typist > who did it. I assumed that you wouldn't mistype your own > name every time. :-) OK, so what name was on the SPRs? I'd assumed you thought that Huw was a mis-spelling of Hugh, but I'm just confused.... -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### Sender: robert@auk.3lg.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> From: Robert Inder Phone: (+44) 7808 492 213 Organisation: Interactive Information Ltd. Disorganisation: Rampant Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:25:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.31.67.6 X-Complaints-To: http://www.blueyonder.co.uk/abuse X-Trace: news1.cableinet.net 1002723943 62.31.67.6 (Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:25:43 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:25:43 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news1.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92342 >>>>> Joseph Pepin writes: > Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:35:25 GMT > We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I > believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable > editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. At risk of starting a religious war, fill-paragraph in Emacs will justify. And, of course, Word justifies its text, if not its price, all the time. Robert. -- __ To avoid the spam trap, mail me |_) _ |_ _ ._ |- | _ _| _ ._ at bcs.org.uk, not deadspam.com. | \(_)|_)(-'| |_ || |(_|(-'| ' Best viewed in Ebriated. ###### From: johnf@panix.com (John Francis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 10 Oct 2001 12:37:27 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 5 Message-ID: <9q1tg7$d1c$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1002731848 2308 166.84.1.3 (10 Oct 2001 16:37:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2001 16:37:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!panix!news.panix.com!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92345 Joseph Pepin writes: > > We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I believe. I think you'll find that should be 'Son of Stopgap'. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100 Organization: Yezerski Roper Limited Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92381 In article , Robert Inder wrote: > >>>>> Joseph Pepin writes: > > Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question > > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:35:25 GMT > > > We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I > > believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable > > editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. > > At risk of starting a religious war, fill-paragraph in > Emacs will justify. > > And, of course, Word justifies its text, if > not its price, all the time. > Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like [s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. u1'' q0j<.,q1fb $;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr $onewlin$' q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l !beg!0l (^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s called with m,nmo to justify between m and n to line width in qo mf and mr, which advance to next word and the end of the current line are left as an exercise. (Teco v40 in VMS with esc changed to $) It has lain about in my teco.ini since 1995. Actually took about a day to write and debug, but it was fun, and it works fairly well. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 11 Oct 01 08:24:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9q3v58$96t$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q1tg7$d1c$1@panix3.panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZwqztBykat5uSWCHcWjJQHY5iP4r44kAcia+CHKHbjDVZ/wn491mjC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2001 11:18:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-161 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92429 In article <9q1tg7$d1c$1@panix3.panix.com>, johnf@panix.com (John Francis) wrote: >Joseph Pepin writes: >> >> We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I believe. > >I think you'll find that should be 'Son of Stopgap'. That's the SOS that we shipped. However, it did not fill and justify. So his SOS might well have been a Sail daughter. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 13 Oct 01 09:38:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZRTMeeRJkAkw9SkzYU15LC2+Xj69hYTjCyF5rVjowasoXafl9T1hTp X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2001 12:32:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-120 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92434 In article <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com>, "Walter Rottenkolber" wrote: > >Elliott Roper wrote in message ... >>In article , >> jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper >wrote: >>> >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >>> > >>> >>[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >>> >u1'' >>> >q0j<.,q1fb >>> >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >>> >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >>> >$onewlin$' >>> >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >>> >!beg!0l >>> >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s >>> >>> Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few >hundred >>> times? >> >>I'm glad you like it. It really, really, works. >>There *might* have been a bit of headbanging while it was being written >>and debugged. >>A real teco giant might tell me how to do the first bit better (getting >>the m and n arguments in without affecting any q-registers on exit and >>without knowing what q1 and q0 were on entry) > >Incredible! A text processing program with a script more obscure and >cryptic than Perl. Is there nothing new under the sun? TECO can be as cryptic or as simple to the user's desire. TECO was fast and I could plow through edits with accuracy and speed. It also did exactly what you told it to do. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 13 Oct 01 09:33:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9q9bvj$1m7$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q6tie$au9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYgSA9XPX9JbvdZFYoX7Pj8QG263yRe/Tq2GjsNVVcRTcsbRHqeYzYe X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2001 12:27:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-120 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92454 In article , peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock) wrote: >>>>>> "jmfbahciv" == jmfbahciv writes: > > >> It almost brings a tear to my eye to see TECO again. Some kind > >> of ocular problem, anyway. > > jmfbahciv> Would you like to use it again? > >I'm pretty sure theres an implementation somewhere that will run under >common-or-garden operating systems. Or TOPS-10. > >I for one wouldn't like to use it again because the memory capacity I can >spare for gibberish has been zero for a long time. Part >of the tear in my eye is I wish I had the `wetware' storage capacity I >had in the 70's. (Mine seems to halve every 18 months.) I didn't waste my memory capacity remembering TECO commands. That's what fingers are for. > >But I seem to remember that in a crazy way TECO made some kind of sense. >Probably more than emacs lisp. It was consistent. > >But TECO was for quiche-eaters. Real coders used handpunches. [emoticon puts on its gloves] Sirrah! Dem's fightin' words. /BAH ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 12 Oct 01 11:15:46 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9q6tie$au9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZkwMR+C6Y+/Jd2IX6SfnjlOaVJtVMojqBAPAPndcbnCaqwBOuu+Deo X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2001 14:09:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-129 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92472 In article , peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock) wrote: >I snipped the following from >http://www.research.compaq.com/SRC/personal/lamport/pubs/pubs.html >where he is talking about a paper on verifying interactive programs. > >"TECO stands for Text Editing and Correction. It was the command >language for the TECO editor, and it was the underlying macro language >on which the original version of Emacs was built. It was an obscure, >low-level language whose goal was to perform powerful text editing >operations with the minimum number of keystrokes. A programming >language designed to make verification easy would be completely unlike >TECO. The paper shows that you verify a TECO program the same way you >verify a program written in a more conventional language." > >It almost brings a tear to my eye to see TECO again. Some kind of >ocular problem, anyway. Would you like to use it again? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 12 Oct 01 11:16:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9q6tkg$au9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVasvk5H0VFaMxZE13Xwi0AXWSzoA4Dey/lmslSmpKZrVG8sNCpOD8H1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2001 14:10:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-129 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92473 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: >>Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >> >>[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >>u1'' >>q0j<.,q1fb >>$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >>q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >>$onewlin$' >>q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >>!beg!0l >>(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s > >Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred >times? Oh, man! This is an age old question. Is it a program or a command? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 14 Oct 01 10:46:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9qc4jb$mck$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYw+FoEvR5TJGC4IWuVkLB5/CkJeqbD1lmi7UGF7OjtXbADXjLxMhR3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Oct 2001 13:39:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-195 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92477 In article <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Elliott Roper wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> I suppose I'll have to do one then. Shall we take it over to >> alt.lang.teco? We should have it to ourselves most days. ;-) >> >Just cross-post it over to . It would be really >great to see posts there that are *not* spam... I am sure that >some people monitor that group, because if I post a TECO >question there, I always get responses... > It's called gratefulness. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BC4C94C.B977BA9A@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:00:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.172.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1002758432 12.90.172.195 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:00:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:00:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92397 Robert Inder wrote: > > >>>>> Joseph Pepin writes: > > Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question > > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:35:25 GMT > > > We used a line editor called 'SOS', which stood for 'Son of Sail', I > > believe. It had a feature I've yet to see in most other human-usable > > editors; justify (right and left) a range of text lines. > > At risk of starting a religious war, fill-paragraph in > Emacs will justify. > > And, of course, Word justifies its text, if > not its price, all the time. And, back around '78, WordStar could do all that, as could various formatters, running on both Unix and CP/M. They had to work with fixed pitch printers, but were quite usable. Wordstar required a whopping 48k of memory to function - it was quite a hog. Right now, on this machine, I believe Vedit, and maybe TextPad and/or MEW will also do that job. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:43:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.222.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@coretel.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1002836583 162.33.222.2 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:43:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:43:03 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92406 On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like > >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >u1'' >q0j<.,q1fb >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >$onewlin$' >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >!beg!0l >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred times? ###### From: August West Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 11 Oct 2001 22:48:10 +0100 Organization: Dangerous Angel Fan Club Lines: 22 Sender: august@blue.kororaa.com Message-ID: <6hwv21q25h.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1058.articuno.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 1002836951 26344 217.135.30.34 (11 Oct 2001 21:49:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2001 21:49:11 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-no-archive: yes Original-Sender: Iain A F Fleming User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92506 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: > >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like > > > >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. > >u1'' > >q0j<.,q1fb > >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> > >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr > >$onewlin$' > >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l > >!beg!0l > >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s > > Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred > times? From the Jargon File, nder the entry for Line Noise: The canonical example is TECO; it is often claimed that "TECO's input syntax is indistinguishable from line noise." ###### From: peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 12 Oct 2001 00:22:01 +0100 Organization: Little Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: loopback X-NNTP-Posting-Host: premise.demon.co.uk:158.152.205.4 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1002856751 nnrp-01:29708 NO-IDENT premise.demon.co.uk:158.152.205.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:22:05 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!premise.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92549 I snipped the following from http://www.research.compaq.com/SRC/personal/lamport/pubs/pubs.html where he is talking about a paper on verifying interactive programs. "TECO stands for Text Editing and Correction. It was the command language for the TECO editor, and it was the underlying macro language on which the original version of Emacs was built. It was an obscure, low-level language whose goal was to perform powerful text editing operations with the minimum number of keystrokes. A programming language designed to make verification easy would be completely unlike TECO. The paper shows that you verify a TECO program the same way you verify a program written in a more conventional language." It almost brings a tear to my eye to see TECO again. Some kind of ocular problem, anyway. Peter Hancock ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:37:50 +0100 Organization: Yezerski Roper Limited Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92625 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: > >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like > > > >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. > >u1'' > >q0j<.,q1fb > >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> > >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr > >$onewlin$' > >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l > >!beg!0l > >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s > > Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred > times? I'm glad you like it. It really, really, works. There *might* have been a bit of headbanging while it was being written and debugged. A real teco giant might tell me how to do the first bit better (getting the m and n arguments in without affecting any q-registers on exit and without knowing what q1 and q0 were on entry) ###### Message-ID: <3BC64159.B7CD5039@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:20:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.180.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1002849601 12.90.180.32 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:20:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:20:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92385 Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: > >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like > > > >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. > >u1'' > >q0j<.,q1fb > >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> > >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr > >$onewlin$' > >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l > >!beg!0l > >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s > > Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred > times? I suspect it is cat generated. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:04:25 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20011012080425.3a2d62e7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <6hwv21q25h.fsf@blue.kororaa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0794.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1002906012 3222 194.134.202.31 (12 Oct 2001 17:00:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:00:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92535 On 11 Oct 2001 22:48:10 +0100 August West wrote: AW> From the Jargon File, nder the entry for Line Noise: AW> AW> The canonical example is TECO; it is often claimed that "TECO's input AW> syntax is indistinguishable from line noise." The higher the information density of a stream of characters the more it tends to resemble line noise, eg, TECO, vi macros, perl regular expressions ... This is just a consequence of Shannon isn't it ? -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 12 Oct 2001 15:40:51 +0100 Organization: Little Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q6tie$au9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: loopback X-NNTP-Posting-Host: premise.demon.co.uk:158.152.205.4 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1002897762 nnrp-01:14057 NO-IDENT premise.demon.co.uk:158.152.205.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:40:53 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!premise.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92553 >>>>> "jmfbahciv" == jmfbahciv writes: >> It almost brings a tear to my eye to see TECO again. Some kind >> of ocular problem, anyway. jmfbahciv> Would you like to use it again? I'm pretty sure theres an implementation somewhere that will run under common-or-garden operating systems. I for one wouldn't like to use it again because the memory capacity I can spare for gibberish has been zero for a long time. Part of the tear in my eye is I wish I had the `wetware' storage capacity I had in the 70's. (Mine seems to halve every 18 months.) But I seem to remember that in a crazy way TECO made some kind of sense. Probably more than emacs lisp. But TECO was for quiche-eaters. Real coders used handpunches. Peter Hancock ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:49:53 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <1f37q9.2n3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9q6tkg$au9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1002902405 nnrp-10:25265 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!transit.news.xs4all.nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92413 According to : > Oh, man! This is an age old question. Is it a program or a > command? I would hope a complete program; the alternative would be a program consisting of many of those commands, which is something I'd rather not imagine, never mind actually see. Chris. ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 12 Oct 2001 14:04:24 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1002931465 25437 128.171.80.135 (13 Oct 2001 00:04:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2001 00:04:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92578 >>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: Elliott> In article , Elliott> jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: >> >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >> > >> >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >> >u1'' >> >q0j<.,q1fb >> >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >> >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >> >$onewlin$' >> >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >> >!beg!0l >> >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s >> >> Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred >> times? Elliott> A real teco giant might tell me how to do the first bit better Elliott> (getting the m and n arguments in without affecting any Elliott> q-registers on exit and without knowing what q1 and q0 were on Elliott> entry) I doubt I qualify, but with "standard" 11/VAX TECO ]0]1U0U1 .... ]1]0 does what you wanted (and in Texas TECO the U0U1 was not needed :-) (or :-( if one were interested in compatibility :-) ]q was defined to pass m or m,n through unused. Nothead (P.S. I started to do a commented version of this, but other time requirements got the better of me :-) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q6tkg$au9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 43 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:35:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.105.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1002933302 24.128.105.166 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:35:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:35:02 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92648 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article , > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >>On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper >wrote: >>>Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >>> I added some spaces between commands below: >>>[s [8 [0 [1 %1u1+0%0u0 ]8 ]s [s [8 (q0-qs)u0 (q1-q8)u1 >>> q0"e .u0 4:w"e .+(q1^q)u1|4:w u0. >>>u1'' >>>q0j <.,q1fb >>>$; fr $-1%1$ > q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$; 1+^s%1$fr $> >>>q0j !newlin! (^q)-qo-2"g 0l qoc 0mf$ -s^Es$ 2+^s%1$ fr >>>$ onewlin$ ' >>>q0j !nl! mr .-q1"l >>>!beg! 0l >>>(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2" l obeg$' l onl$' ]1 ]0 ]8 ]s >> >>Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred >>times? >Oh, man! This is an age old question. Is it a program or a >command? I'd call it a program - it has conditionals, loops, calls subroutines, etc. I don't think it's complete - 0mf and mr execute Q-registers, but I don't see them being initialized. I think some of the features are not part of the TECO I knew/know. It's a collection of teco commands, so I wouldn't call it a command still. I won't take the time to figure out what it does. It seems to do some sort of transform one a block of a buffer. -Ric -- "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or perceived emergency, we invariably regret it. -- Thurgood Marshall Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:56:44 +0100 Organization: Yezerski Roper Limited Message-ID: References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92638 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: > Elliott> A real teco giant might tell me how to do the first bit better > Elliott> (getting the m and n arguments in without affecting any > Elliott> q-registers on exit and without knowing what q1 and q0 were on > Elliott> entry) > > I doubt I qualify, but with "standard" 11/VAX TECO > > ]0]1U0U1 .... ]1]0 > does what you wanted..... Sadly "?NAU No arg before U" on my VMS Teco v40, even after substituting pushes for your typo'd initial pops. It was the first thing I tried. [s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1 which does work, is far from elegant. The % operator does not consume the arguments, unlike u > >(and in Texas TECO the U0U1 was not needed :-) (or :-( > if one were interested in compatibility :-) > > ]q was defined to pass m or m,n through unused. That's how I remembered Teco-10 too, but it was a brief love affair, long ago. > > Nothead > (P.S. I started to do a commented version of this, but other time > requirements got the better of me :-) I suppose I'll have to do one then. Shall we take it over to alt.lang.teco? We should have it to ourselves most days. ;-) ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:10:48 +0100 Organization: Yezerski Roper Limited Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q6tkg$au9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92637 In article , Ric Werme wrote: > > I'd call it a program - it has conditionals, loops, calls subroutines, etc. > I don't think it's complete - 0mf and mr execute Q-registers, but I don't > see them being initialized. I think some of the features are not part of > the TECO I knew/know. It's a collection of teco commands, so I wouldn't > call it a command still. It is TECO (V40) as currently distributed with VMS > > I won't take the time to figure out what it does. It seems to do some > sort of transform one a block of a buffer. Sorry Ric, my snipping was too vigorous. It left and right justifies a block of text between m,n to a column width of qO. I did originally explain that nMF advanced n words and MR is go to end of line (l2r) MF is much more horrible and calls a few others and passes '.' to the caller. But since it started as a throwaway joke to keep vi and emacs people awake.... ###### From: "Walter Rottenkolber" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:18:29 -0700 Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.34 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.34 Message-ID: <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1002955361 209.155.25.34 (12 Oct 2001 23:42:41 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92441 Elliott Roper wrote in message ... >In article , > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: >> >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >> > >> >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >> >u1'' >> >q0j<.,q1fb >> >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >> >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >> >$onewlin$' >> >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >> >!beg!0l >> >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s >> >> Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred >> times? > >I'm glad you like it. It really, really, works. >There *might* have been a bit of headbanging while it was being written >and debugged. >A real teco giant might tell me how to do the first bit better (getting >the m and n arguments in without affecting any q-registers on exit and >without knowing what q1 and q0 were on entry) Incredible! A text processing program with a script more obscure and cryptic than Perl. Is there nothing new under the sun? Walter Rottenkolber ###### From: Angus Creech Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 13 Oct 2001 16:51:56 GMT Organization: Division of Informatics, The University of Edinburgh Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9q9rfc$veb$1@kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 1002991916 32203 193.62.81.5 (13 Oct 2001 16:51:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92480 In ed.general Walter Rottenkolber wrote: > Incredible! A text processing program with a script more obscure and > cryptic than Perl. Is there nothing new under the sun? I use Perl every day - Perl is only obscure and cryptic if you want it to be. -- Angus ###### Message-ID: <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:11:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.179.111.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc2.tx.home.com 1003003881 24.179.111.125 (Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:11:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:11:21 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92610 Elliott Roper wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > I suppose I'll have to do one then. Shall we take it over to > alt.lang.teco? We should have it to ourselves most days. ;-) > Just cross-post it over to . It would be really great to see posts there that are *not* spam... I am sure that some people monitor that group, because if I post a TECO question there, I always get responses... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 13 Oct 2001 23:07:36 GMT Organization: HCRC, University of Edinburgh Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9qahfo$1bf4$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: banks.cogsci.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk 1003014456 44516 129.215.144.55 (13 Oct 2001 23:07:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cogsci.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2001 23:07:36 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92550 In article <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com>, Walter Rottenkolber wrote: >Incredible! A text processing program with a script more obscure and >cryptic than Perl. Is there nothing new under the sun? Surely Perl derives at least its <> syntax from teco? -- Richard -- Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 13 Oct 2001 13:32:09 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1003015929 19028 128.171.80.135 (13 Oct 2001 23:32:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 2001 23:32:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92570 >>>>> "Walter" == Walter Rottenkolber writes: Walter> Incredible! A text processing program with a script more obscure and Walter> cryptic than Perl. Is there nothing new under the sun? Huh? That's like seeing the Rosetta Stone and saying, "gee, a language more confusing than English; is there nothing new under the sun?" Or did you forget a smiley :-) Jim ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:20:16 +0100 Organization: None Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1003018829 nnrp-07:21429 NO-IDENT hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92573 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: > >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like > > > >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. > >u1'' > >q0j<.,q1fb > >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> > >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr > >$onewlin$' > >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l > >!beg!0l > >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s > > Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred > times? It's code. You recognised TECO by the dollar-signs (actually escape characters) the same way you recognise LISP-like languages by the brackets. Simon. -- http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | I have a hunch that [] the unknown sequences No junk email please. | of DNA [will decode into] copyright notices | and patent protections. -- Donald E. Knuth The French Was There. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:26:27 +0100 Organization: Yezerski Roper Limited Message-ID: References: <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92629 In article <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > Elliott Roper wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > I suppose I'll have to do one then. Shall we take it over to > > alt.lang.teco? We should have it to ourselves most days. ;-) > > > Just cross-post it over to . It would be really > great to see posts there that are *not* spam... I am sure that > some people monitor that group, because if I post a TECO > question there, I always get responses... Righto. I have just put it up there. It was too longwinded to include here. I discovered that I wrote the thing way back in 1994. I couldn't find the commented version that I had while debugging. So this was a nostalgic exercise. And is probably full of mistakes. At that time I did not have a modern teco manual and did not know about local q-registers. So it will look a little more familiar to Teco-10 users. But not exactly. VMS Teco is closer to Teco-11. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:43:03 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1003063383snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1003067372 mail2news:28857 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92636 In article <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net "Charles Richmond" writes: > Just cross-post it over to . It would be really > great to see posts there that are *not* spam... I am sure that > some people monitor that group, because if I post a TECO > question there, I always get responses... Out of interest, why has no one ever made a move (i.e. RFD) to create comp.lang.teco? I'm sure there's be less spam in a Big-8 group (not least because the alpha-spammers have usually been targetted by the time they have got to the end of alt.* and hence their accounts are dead: or at least the anti-spammers are cancelling as fast as the spammer posts). -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BC8BB5C.C29117BD@ev1.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 22 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:18:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.105.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1003101535 24.128.105.166 (Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:18:55 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:18:55 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92745 Charles Richmond writes: >Elliott Roper wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> I suppose I'll have to do one then. Shall we take it over to >> alt.lang.teco? We should have it to ourselves most days. ;-) >> >Just cross-post it over to . It would be really >great to see posts there that are *not* spam... I am sure that >some people monitor that group, because if I post a TECO >question there, I always get responses... Except everyone there is a fossil who reads here too.... -Ric (51, as of yesterday) -- "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or perceived emergency, we invariably regret it. -- Thurgood Marshall Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general,alt.lang.teco Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:01:56 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-132-80.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1003114917 14520 207.148.132.80 (15 Oct 2001 03:01:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:01:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!hekyl.ab.tac.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92747 On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:20:16 +0100, slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote: >In article , >jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper wrote: >> >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >> > >> >[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >> >u1'' >> >q0j<.,q1fb >> >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >> >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >> >$onewlin$' >> >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >> >!beg!0l >> >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s >> >> Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few hundred >> times? > >It's code. You recognised TECO by the dollar-signs (actually escape ^^^^^^ alt-mode -- old LKs/TTYs didn't have no steenkin' escape key! ;^> >characters) the same way you recognise LISP-like languages by the >brackets. Re: Subject -- it's nice to see there's still TOPS-10 newbies with questions. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general,alt.lang.teco Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:01:58 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-132-80.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1003114919 14520 207.148.132.80 (15 Oct 2001 03:01:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:01:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:92746 On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:18:29 -0700, "Walter Rottenkolber" wrote: > >Elliott Roper wrote in message ... >>In article , >> jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:24 +0100, Elliott Roper >wrote: >>> >Of course, you can simply knock up a teco macro like >>> > >>> >>[s[8[0[1%1u1+0%0u0]8]s[s[8(q0-qs)u0(q1-q8)u1q0"e.u04:w"e.+(q1^q)u1|4:wu0. >>> >u1'' >>> >q0j<.,q1fb >>> >$;fr $-1%1$>q0j <.,q1fb ^Es$;1+^s%1$fr $> >>> >q0j!newlin!(^q)-qo-2"g0lqoc0mf$-s^Es$2+^s%1$fr >>> >$onewlin$' >>> >q0j!nl!mr.-q1"l >>> >!beg!0l >>> >(^q)-(0^q)-qo-2"lobeg$'lonl$']1]0]8]s >>> >>> Is this code, or did you just bang your head on the keyboard a few >hundred >>> times? >> >>I'm glad you like it. It really, really, works. >>There *might* have been a bit of headbanging while it was being written >>and debugged. >>A real teco giant might tell me how to do the first bit better (getting >>the m and n arguments in without affecting any q-registers on exit and >>without knowing what q1 and q0 were on entry) > >Incredible! A text processing program with a script more obscure and >cryptic than Perl. Is there nothing new under the sun? It's nice to see Perlites feel threatened by TECO's obvious essence of hackishness. ;^> And not a lot new these days, unfortunately, although as PHP and Python seem to be generating interest, I still have hopes of a resurgence of interest in creating useful weird and wonderful little languages. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 22 Oct 01 08:15:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaisyD+8xiE0iOgGroFylgfXn4aqJF7VtvwxralrO+MrW1vHjxAHZE3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2001 11:10:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93172 In article , Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson) wrote: >In article <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. > >.... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. That's how computers [should] work. At least, TECO didn't "decide" that what you really wanted was a 40K rather than a 40D. And, it took any filename you gave it, OPENed it up, and displayed the contents. And, it didn't write until you told it to. Try that with your local Misfuck software. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:20:15 +0100 Organization: Network_Services_Division Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3bc7e261@news.sierratel.com> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wormhole.ucs.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: scotsman.ed.ac.uk 1003746014 15142 129.215.200.202 (22 Oct 2001 10:20:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@scotsman.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2001 10:20:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!wormhole.ucs.ed.ac.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93198 In article <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. ... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. -- Sam Wilson Network Services Division, Computing Services The University of Edinburgh Edinburgh, Scotland, UK ###### From: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 22 Oct 2001 11:41:14 GMT Organization: HCRC, University of Edinburgh Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mcpherson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk 1003750874 17704 129.215.110.47 (22 Oct 2001 11:41:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cogsci.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2001 11:41:14 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!easynet-monga!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93182 In article <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. >>.... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. >That's how computers [should] work. The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... -- Richard -- Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! ###### Message-ID: <3BD43974.F65967EC@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:32:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1003764736 168.191.124.190 (Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:32:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:32:16 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:28:28 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93171 Richard Tobin wrote: > In article <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > > >>> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. > > >>.... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. > > >That's how computers [should] work. > > The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... Of course, then there's the "old saw" that any string of random charaters is a valid TECO command.............Line noise can be harmfull...........even at 110 baud.................. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 22 Oct 2001 17:18:10 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9r1kci$o8j@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: yak.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uchicago.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93177 richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes: >In article <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. >>>.... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. >>That's how computers [should] work. >The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... I almost remember one of the TECO commands being changed because it was too easy to type accidentally. Someone else probably knows the details, but I think it was Y, too easy to type when you wanted to type T. -- glen ###### Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r1kci$o8j@gap.cco.caltech.edu> From: Paul Repacholi Message-ID: <876697cwzb.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: iQnet Cache-Post-Path: angelina.pe!unknown@p140.perth02.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Cache-Post-Path: news.satix.net!unknown@news-01.core.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.satix.net X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 1003781023 203.132.96.3 (Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:03:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:03:43 EST Distribution: world Date: 23 Oct 2001 03:10:00 +0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!ord2-feed1.news.digex.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.uncensored-news.com!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!newspeer.cwnet.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93204 gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) writes: > I almost remember one of the TECO commands being changed because > it was too easy to type accidentally. Someone else probably knows > the details, but I think it was Y, too easy to type when you wanted > to type T. A lession that was not noticed by the DCL designer with ^T and ^Y. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 23 Oct 01 09:49:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <9r3on5$gau$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r1kci$o8j@gap.cco.caltech.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaHzPZg6X7BR447QcXjTobCwvr0oL6S6jCxyyHiQgrwUN4Em0UeH4om X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2001 12:44:21 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-65 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93232 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "glen" == glen herrmannsfeldt writes: > > glen> richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes: > >> In article <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > > >>>>> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. > > >>>> .... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. > > >>> That's how computers [should] work. > > >> The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... > > glen> I almost remember one of the TECO commands being changed because > glen> it was too easy to type accidentally. Someone else probably knows > glen> the details, but I think it was Y, too easy to type when you wanted > glen> to type T. > >And how many times did you type 0YY instead of 0TT ?-) Once. Well...let me clarify. It was a 0yy$ex$$. That's when I discovered the usefulness of foo.BAK. > ... Texas TECO changed >Y to EY. ISTR -11 TECO added an option bit that let one choose. Yuch. We (in Tape Prep) used Y quite a bit. Those pesky programmers were never satisfied with their first pass. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 23 Oct 01 09:50:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYxoXkJqCCUlrW+zhVy2K0K0ylvYMXwwySkdQYC+iFC4Pa+nPZaA9CT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2001 12:46:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-65 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93234 In article <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote: >In article <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >>>> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. > >>>.... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. > >>That's how computers [should] work. > >The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... Huh? Do What I Mean? Fucking Microsoft has the opinion that it knows what you mean. In my case, they're always wrong. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 22 Oct 2001 14:16:40 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r1kci$o8j@gap.cco.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1003796200 19571 128.171.80.135 (23 Oct 2001 00:16:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2001 00:16:40 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93260 >>>>> "glen" == glen herrmannsfeldt writes: glen> richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes: >> In article <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>>> [TECO] did exactly what you told it to do. >>>> .... which may not always have been what you wanted it to do. >>> That's how computers [should] work. >> The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... glen> I almost remember one of the TECO commands being changed because glen> it was too easy to type accidentally. Someone else probably knows glen> the details, but I think it was Y, too easy to type when you wanted glen> to type T. And how many times did you type 0YY instead of 0TT ?-) Texas TECO changed Y to EY. ISTR -11 TECO added an option bit that let one choose. Nothead ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 22 Oct 2001 14:17:35 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r1kci$o8j@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <876697cwzb.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1003796255 19571 128.171.80.135 (23 Oct 2001 00:17:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2001 00:17:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93258 >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Repacholi writes: Paul> gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) writes: >> I almost remember one of the TECO commands being changed because >> it was too easy to type accidentally. Someone else probably knows >> the details, but I think it was Y, too easy to type when you wanted >> to type T. Paul> A lession that was not noticed by the DCL designer with ^T and ^Y. And what was it that was wrong with ^C^C ? Why ^Y ? Nothead ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:19:20 +0100 Organization: Yezerski Roper Limited Message-ID: References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9q9c8d$1m7$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r1kci$o8j@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <9r3on5$gau$2@bob.news.rcn.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93270 In article <9r3on5$gau$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > glen> I almost remember one of the TECO commands being changed because > > glen> it was too easy to type accidentally. Someone else probably knows > > glen> the details, but I think it was Y, too easy to type when you wanted > > glen> to type T. > > > >And how many times did you type 0YY instead of 0TT ?-) > > Once. Well...let me clarify. It was a 0yy$ex$$. > > That's when I discovered the usefulness of foo.BAK. > > > Jim Thomas> ... Texas TECO changed > Jim Thomas >Y to EY. ISTR -11 TECO added an option bit that let one choose. > > Yuch. We (in Tape Prep) used Y quite a bit. Those pesky > programmers were never satisfied with their first pass. > Those pesky Teco-11 programmers had file version numbers to play with as well as EY and the !(ED&2) flag bit to disallow buffer-destroying Y's. "We don' need no steenking .BAK's" Takes all the thrill out of it. How about i/\$eceb^eq*$n/\$fr$ to make a safety copy on the run? ** ^EQn [Not in TECO-10] heh! (Insert Beavis & Butthead emoticon here) ** (as long your file does not contain "/\") ;-) ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 23 Oct 2001 17:08:43 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93217 In article <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, > richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote: >>>That's how computers [should] work. >>The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... >Huh? Do What I Mean? Fucking Microsoft has the opinion that >it knows what you mean. In my case, they're always wrong. Ahh, but that's the difference between DWIM and DWMWYTM . . . I tried the ms grammar checker when it came out in 93 or so with word 5.1. Aside from taking a minute or two per paragraph, every single thing it told me was wrong . . . hawk -- What part of "non-negotiable" didn't you understand? /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 24 Oct 01 08:43:46 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9r6991$hbq$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZedmNxTLukc9kGoV7anJd8+uOJwYQCn7HYstbVWW6+d0VBGGISdyXv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2001 11:39:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-235 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93290 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "hawk" == Prof Richard E Hawkins writes: > > hawk> I tried the ms grammar checker when it came out in 93 or so with word > hawk> 5.1. Aside from taking a minute or two per paragraph, every single > hawk> thing it told me was wrong . . . > >Oops, at first I assumed you meant word 5 for DOS :-) That was a bit >earlier. I tried the grammar checker with version 2.0 >or 2.1. It was slow >and then it GPF'ed :-( [puzzled emoticon considers cybercrud and "Aha!"s] GagPooF'ed? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 24 Oct 01 08:40:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9r692p$hbq$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbBONdYtRPXgodDYUwbHMAwoeB9VFGduz1sWIL3ELvKt3zD7uMBvjAY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2001 11:35:53 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-235 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93292 In article <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>In article <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, >> richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote: > > >>>>That's how computers [should] work. > >>>The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... > >>Huh? Do What I Mean? Fucking Microsoft has the opinion that >>it knows what you mean. In my case, they're always wrong. > >Ahh, but that's the difference between DWIM and DWMWYTM . . . > >I tried the ms grammar checker when it came out in 93 or so with word >5.1. Aside from taking a minute or two per paragraph, every single >thing it told me was wrong . . . I don't remember the release, but a comp.risks entry complained about an MS checker adding/deleting 'not's. With your lawyerly mien, you can imagine what kind of havoc that could do with contracts and legislation. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BD5FA39.93320E11@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r0ura$qr6$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:19:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.179.111.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc2.tx.home.com 1003871950 24.179.111.125 (Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:19:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:19:10 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93311 "Prof. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >In article <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, > > richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote: > > >>>That's how computers [should] work. > > >>The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... > > >Huh? Do What I Mean? Fucking Microsoft has the opinion that > >it knows what you mean. In my case, they're always wrong. > > Ahh, but that's the difference between DWIM and DWMWYTM . . . > > I tried the ms grammar checker when it came out in 93 or so with word > 5.1. Aside from taking a minute or two per paragraph, every single > thing it told me was wrong . . . > "Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3BD5FA39.93320E11@ev1.net> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 36 Message-ID: <2hlB7.581211$Lw3.35578281@news2.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:27:26 CDT X-Trace: sv3-X17zx2teL/zUthZzIPMOcF1czNhYFrB+o6B6l7TbXqEuvdFx0/YynrXf00o7h8nxiWkaYZFriDIrjlC!AxNcSMYwJq50P1O4L46JiT+Duj6FDTvU+UvoL85ucr3J0N2ziw5URaYORJUEh/yDfvjc31kRh1xz!FpY8bzu64yVP04ur X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:27:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.telia-iberia.com!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93313 In article <3BD5FA39.93320E11@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >"Prof. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: >> >> In article <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >> >In article <9r10kq$h98$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, >> > richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) wrote: >> >> >>>That's how computers [should] work. >> >> >>The idea of DWIM for TECO is horrifying... >> >> >Huh? Do What I Mean? Fucking Microsoft has the opinion that >> >it knows what you mean. In my case, they're always wrong. >> >> Ahh, but that's the difference between DWIM and DWMWYTM . . . >> >> I tried the ms grammar checker when it came out in 93 or so with word >> 5.1. Aside from taking a minute or two per paragraph, every single >> thing it told me was wrong . . . >> >"Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis" :-) http://www.ijmc.com/archives/2000/January/15January2000.html but... http://www.gospelcom.net/tmattingly/2000/col/col.04.12.2000.html -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Message-ID: <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3BD5FA39.93320E11@ev1.net> <2hlB7.581211$Lw3.35578281@news2.aus1.giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:52:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.168.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1003888345 12.90.168.179 (Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:52:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:52:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93320 "MSCHAEF.COM" wrote: > ... snip ... > >> > >"Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) > > "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis" :-) Now my Latin is not good (I persuaded my parents to let me switch to mathematics by getting 9 out of 100 on a mid-year school report), but is this translation anywhere near accurate? Confronting the evildoers with acerbic flames is addictive? Maybe that would be "addictus est". Confronting is the wrong word too, maybe create confusion among? -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: bogus@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Oct 2001 11:48:45 GMT Organization: The Biggest Fluff Mine in Midlothian Distribution: world Message-ID: <8265@purr.demon.co.uk> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1003922154 nnrp-12:7026 NO-IDENT purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Posting-Agent: MacSlurp 1.6d8 Lines: 79 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!purr.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93318 >>> "Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) >> "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis" :-) > Now my Latin is not good (I persuaded my parents to let me switch > to mathematics by getting 9 out of 100 on a mid-year school > report), but is this translation anywhere near accurate? > Confronting the evildoers with acerbic flames is addictive? He's quoting the mediaeval hymn "Dies Irae" about the Day of Judgment, which is used in the Requiem Mass. An American Protestant equivalent is the shape-note hymn "Babylon is Fallen", which has a suitable modern update... MICROSOFT IS FALLEN (Tune: Babylon is Fallen) [from Jeri Corlew on uk.music.folk a couple of years back] Hail the day so long expected, Hail the day computers crash, My PC in ruins lying, Just a pile of smoke and ash. Sound the cry on 20/20, Gates's empire is now o'er, Microsoft is fallen, has fallen, has fallen, Microsoft is fallen to rise no more. All the merchants stand confus-ed, At this monumental crash, Credit cards are all refus-ed, We can only take your cash, Grab a pencil and some paper? Do we remember what they're for? Microsoft is fallen, has fallen, has fallen, Microsoft is fallen to rise no more. Hear the news from Silicon Valley, Ol' Steve Jobs is coming back, My friends all look at me with pity, Say I should have bought a Mac. Make mine green and purple tie-died, I'll turn Apple to the core! Microsoft is fallen, has fallen, has fallen, Microsoft is fallen to rise no more. Music (ABC format, see my webpage for the details; this setting uses some notational tricks specific to BarFly, the freeware Mac all-in-one ABC app, particularly in the chord line, but can easily be adapted to other dialects). X:1 T:Babylon is Fallen L:1/8 M:4/4 V:1 V:2 V:3 transpose -24 V:4 merge K:G V:1 |: B2B2 BGE2| A2AF G2A2| B2B2 GFEG| F2 F/G/F E4 y:| V:2 |: G2G2 E2G2| F2F2 D2F2| E2G2 BAG2| D2 D2 B,4y:| V:3 |: e2e2 B2e2| d2d2 A2d2| g2e2 e2e2| B2 B2 e4 y:| V:4 |:"Em"x8 |"D"x8 |"Em"x8 |"D"x4 "Em"x4 y:| % V:1 B3 c dBd2| e2 f2 ed B2| B3 c dB d2| e2 f2 e4| V:2 E3 E G2G2| G2 D2 E2 E2| E3 E E2 E2| G2 D2 E4| V:3 g3 a b2g2| e2 B2 e2 e2| g3 a b2 g2| e2 B2 e4| V:4 "G"x8 |"Em"x2"D"x2 "Em"x4 |"G"x8 |"Em"x2 "D"x2 "Em"x4| % V:1 |: B>BBB G2 GE| A2AF G2A2| B>BBB G2 EG| F2 F/G/F E4 y:| V:2 |: G>GGG E2 EE| F2FD D2F2| G>GGG E2 GE| D2 DE B,4y:| V:3 |: e>eee B2 BB| d2dA A2d2| e>eeB B2 eB| B2 B2 e4 y:| V:4 |:"Em"x8 |"D"x8 |"Em"x8 |"D" x4 "Em" x4 y:| ========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Message-ID: References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3BD5FA39.93320E11@ev1.net> <2hlB7.581211$Lw3.35578281@news2.aus1.giganews.com> <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> Lines: 33 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:19:53 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.112 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1003936350 205.206.39.112 (Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:12:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:12:30 EDT Organization: UUNET Canada News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93297 In article <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >"MSCHAEF.COM" wrote: >> >"Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) >> "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis" :-) > >Now my Latin is not good (I persuaded my parents to let me switch >to mathematics by getting 9 out of 100 on a mid-year school >report), but is this translation anywhere near accurate? >Confronting the evildoers with acerbic flames is addictive? Maybe >that would be "addictus est". Confronting is the wrong word too, >maybe create confusion among? From the dictionary: confutare: to silence, to suppress maledicere: to curse flamma: flame acer: sharp, fierce, violent addicere: to assign, to doom So from what I think I remember, the whole phrase concerns condemned souls sent to the flames of Hell. 'flammis acribus' (dative plural) being the piercing flames to which some people are doomed, said people also being suppressed and cursed. The phrase is just a snippet; all the (dative or ablative plural) damned are involved in a larger sentence which I don't know. IIRC this was the music being sung as the background to one of M$'s "Where do you want to go today?" TV ads. I suppose the agency wanted something majestic. Regards. Mel. ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Oct 2001 14:57:15 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9r6ksb$dm6@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r3oq8$gau$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93287 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "hawk" == Prof Richard E Hawkins writes: > hawk> I tried the ms grammar checker when it came out in 93 or so with word > hawk> 5.1. Aside from taking a minute or two per paragraph, every single > hawk> thing it told me was wrong . . . >Oops, at first I assumed you meant word 5 for DOS :-) Actually, I never saw that one :) In that era, as a lawyer, it was either macs or wordperfect. >That was a bit >earlier. I tried the grammar checker with version 2.0 or 2.1. Would that be word for windows 2.0? That was the so-so port of 5.1 to windows (with, of course, useful features removed, and the file compatibilty didn't work, and . . .) >It was slow >and then it GPF'ed :-( You already said it was a dos program :) hawk -- What part of "non-negotiable" didn't you understand? /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Angus Creech Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Oct 2001 15:12:17 GMT Organization: Division of Informatics, The University of Edinburgh Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <9r6loh$9h0$1@kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> <8265@purr.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 1003936337 9760 193.62.81.4 (24 Oct 2001 15:12:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!easynet-quince!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93291 And winner of the Pedantry Awards 2001, is... -- Angus In ed.general bogus address wrote: > Music (ABC format, see my webpage for the details; this setting uses > some notational tricks specific to BarFly, the freeware Mac all-in-one > ABC app, particularly in the chord line, but can easily be adapted to > other dialects). ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r486r$7c0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9r6ksb$dm6@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:12:54 CDT X-Trace: sv3-sxH4+qhqArrI3Nlt1Zj50d8LLMI7UPTWv6OndAtbJicMa2UESXrBBiPqgx9OlrBBrquI8obn+iDponf!xOAmL3M1dbbkwHQlr7dNxWI6ze8uos/MBBWFraYIFRfDkVClsB0qLRdoMoUmkct73p8hW1FU1qAU!PQvlHjDL7A+B31tj67A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:12:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93319 In article <9r6ksb$dm6@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > >Would that be word for windows 2.0? That was the so-so port of 5.1 to >windows (with, of course, useful features removed, and the file >compatibilty didn't work, and . . .) Are you thinking of WinWord 1.x? Or did Microsoft again port DOS Word 5.1 back to Windows with 2.0? Either way, I remember 2.0 as being a lot better than 1.1. (although still not good enough) -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3BD5FA39.93320E11@ev1.net> <2hlB7.581211$Lw3.35578281@news2.aus1.giganews.com> <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:15:43 CDT X-Trace: sv3-Ng8XqvMo3sRY+yAkkVj1+4TLM/7+GwpgfERO5GXO2VbbyVz+2mlvD+T3D44tf7WKSE265D7F7q1tv1/!GmmFLxoh0qbuQEvoZ5+78ZP52N0kZ6lcyPc0aUgPR9Iz2KeY5vhj+RewZ5k2ghXusi61xNqeoKPL!SOV68UyvWCHyt3WwT0A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:15:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93321 In article <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >"MSCHAEF.COM" wrote: >> >... snip ... >> >> >> >"Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) >> >> "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis" :-) > >Now my Latin is not good (I persuaded my parents to let me switch >to mathematics by getting 9 out of 100 on a mid-year school >report), but is this translation anywhere near accurate? > >Confronting the evildoers with acerbic flames is addictive? Maybe >that would be "addictus est". Confronting is the wrong word too, >maybe create confusion among? It's something like "the damned and acursed are convicted to the flames of hell". Pretty approporiate, when you take it with MS's slogan. :-) Apparantly, if you look at the gospelcom link I posted before, the syntax is that of a phrase, rather than that of a statement. The rest of it is something like "please let me get to heaven, the damned...". I don't know nearly enough Latin to know how to translate it myself, and am surely doing Mozart a great disservice. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> <8265@purr.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:17:40 CDT X-Trace: sv3-caK1iR/8R9pJD1uNfQ7bQoTNMitaEnlzmNx/tzacrzS8nOFBAgrDXm9OTvFKercFjzFeAGRMhnlvSUZ!KcqCM0k6eVCWIF8hAYqFD98FEwpWHaMXJrcCWFmsV229ZOrN5rwusfPeBXGWuZpr87wGlGDv5wBs!8zfvDYPS97Ml3bokWwU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:17:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93454 In article <8265@purr.demon.co.uk>, bogus address wrote: > >>>> "Where do you want to go today???" (Mi$uck slogan...) >>> "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis" :-) >> Now my Latin is not good (I persuaded my parents to let me switch >> to mathematics by getting 9 out of 100 on a mid-year school >> report), but is this translation anywhere near accurate? >> Confronting the evildoers with acerbic flames is addictive? > >He's quoting the mediaeval hymn "Dies Irae" about the Day of Judgment, >which is used in the Requiem Mass. More particularly, the part of Mozart's Requiem that played as they cheerfully started asking consumers "where do you want to go today". They pulled the ad pretty quick. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Oct 2001 18:13:09 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9r70bl$j92@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <9r6ksb$dm6@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93333 In article , MSCHAEF.COM wrote: >In article <9r6ksb$dm6@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, >Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >>Would that be word for windows 2.0? That was the so-so port of 5.1 to >>windows (with, of course, useful features removed, and the file >>compatibilty didn't work, and . . .) >Are you thinking of WinWord 1.x? Or did Microsoft again port DOS Word >5.1 back to Windows with 2.0? Either way, I remember 2.0 as being a lot >better than 1.1. (although still not good enough) nope. I don't remember what winword 1.x was (only that noone used it :) Winword 2.0 was a prt of mac word 5.1 (which, with excel 4.0, was the last good product they ever shipped, as far as I can tell . . .) It was missing a lot, though. I went to turn in a massive project on disk. Turns out that in going to the windows format, it lost little things--such as graphics and frames (and thier contents). Most of my project was nicely set in frames . . . I just happned to notice the difference in file sizes. I ended up calling my secretary from the airport and having her print and deliver the project. hawk -- What part of "non-negotiable" didn't you understand? /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: bogus@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 24 Oct 2001 19:12:38 GMT Organization: The Biggest Fluff Mine in Midlothian Distribution: world Message-ID: <8268@purr.demon.co.uk> References: <3BA5EBE2.DFE78360@owl.co.uk> <3BD60F21.E3539221@yahoo.com> <8265@purr.demon.co.uk> <9r6loh$9h0$1@kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1003970315 nnrp-12:29612 NO-IDENT purr.demon.co.uk:194.222.239.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Posting-Agent: MacSlurp 1.6d8 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!purr.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:93450 > And winner of the Pedantry Awards 2001, is... >> Music (ABC format, see my webpage for the details; this setting uses >> some notational tricks specific to BarFly, the freeware Mac all-in-one >> ABC app, particularly in the chord line, but can easily be adapted to >> other dialects). It's a neat tune. It sounds great in BarFly and probably won't work at all with abc2midi (the other popular way to listen to abcs) without a bit of editing, so what's wrong with warning people about that? ========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources