From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: 30 Jul 2001 08:19:42 -0700
Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com]
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In article <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>>>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HTML
>
>This was not a distribution tape.

Speaking as the guy who read in that tape, I can tell you that it
is an "official" DEC tape.  Note, however, that the printed label reads
"DECNET-10 V4.0 SUP", so it is reasonable to suppose that this was
a "supplement" tape, and may not have everything.

>And where the hell are the sources?  Who the fuck redefined the
>dammn packaging plan?  Where is the BLISS36 used to build all
>that stuff?

I can only read in and make available tapes that folks care to share with
me.  I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting away
in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to
preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!

Was there any discussion of software preservation at the 36-bit part of
"DECWORLD 2001" that was discussed here?  I would've been there to plead for
tapes myself, if someone had told me it was happening... maybe the preservation
of software just isn't important enough compared to swapping old stories?
(Wasn't TCMHC there to help out with this?)  Were the DECWORLD 2001
participants even made aware that some of us are struggling to save this old
software?

Tim.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 01 08:02:24 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <9k626f$d5$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
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In article <t8k97.129030$Tx5.1509795@e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com>,
   "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:
>In alt.sys.pdp10 Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>> In article <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
<snip>

>> I can only read in and make available tapes that folks care to share 
with
>> me.  I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting 
away
>> in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to
>> preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
>> such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!
>
>I don't think *anyone* has a complaint with you Tim, you've done a great
>job!  BTW, thank you for making the ISO images available, I'd never gotten
>around to ordering the PDP-10 one, I'll be burning a copy of it ASAP.

Oh, shit!  Tim, I wasn't swearing at you.  I was having a royal
hissy fit because of the fact that everything, I tried to prevent,
happened.  Now that I've calmed down a scintilla, note that the
dates of the MCB files coincide with the 7.03 ship.  That was 
probably the main thing that set me off.  The idiots didn't 
package software rebuilt for 7.04.  I'm getting more and more
suspicious of that whole release.  

I also remembered that, even if I hadn't become too sick to work,
I wouldn't have been able to do anything about the quality of
that ship anyway.  I was mostly swearing at myself for being
so stupid.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 01 09:42:08 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <9k681f$p06$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6246 alt.folklore.computers:86153

In article <9k3tue0sgc@drn.newsguy.com>,
   Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>In article <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>>>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.
HTML
>>
>>This was not a distribution tape.
>
>Speaking as the guy who read in that tape, I can tell you that it
>is an "official" DEC tape. 

Yea, Yea.  I know.  I was speaking from the other end.  I wrote
the damned packaging plan.  I'm not pissed at you, Tim.  Just
so bloody frustrated at idiocy...mostly mine.  I completely
underestimated the intent of destruction of the group's leadership.
I knew they were destroying people; I had no idea that they
had the balls to zero the bits.

> ... Note, however, that the printed label reads
>"DECNET-10 V4.0 SUP", so it is reasonable to suppose that this was
>a "supplement" tape, and may not have everything.

AFAICT, it's a supplement to the stuff shipped as part of the
7.03 product.

>
>>And where the hell are the sources?  Who the fuck redefined the
>>dammn packaging plan?  Where is the BLISS36 used to build all
>>that stuff?
>
>I can only read in and make available tapes that folks care to share with
>me.  

Yes.  I'm now remembering where those tapes came from.  If I can
stay pissed, I'll be working on correcting it all.  I just get so 
damned tired of cleaning up their messes.


> ...I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting away
>in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to
>preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
>such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!

Most of the problem lies with the fact that everything that was
archived within the company is just gone despite the contract
with the archive people.  We didn't bring home copies of stuff
because there were two places where the bits were permanently
stored, archives and SDC.  Besides it was a tad against one's
contract to privately keep all this stuff.

>
>Was there any discussion of software preservation at the 36-bit part of
>"DECWORLD 2001" that was discussed here?  I would've been there to plead 
for
>tapes myself, if someone had told me it was happening... maybe the 
preservation
>of software just isn't important enough compared to swapping old stories?
>(Wasn't TCMHC there to help out with this?)  Were the DECWORLD 2001
>participants even made aware that some of us are struggling to save this 
old
>software?

WEll, if the TCMHC is that museum that Bell tinkers with, I wouldn't
give them anything that smelled of 36-bits.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 01 09:42:08 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <9k681f$p06$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6246 alt.folklore.computers:86153

In article <9k3tue0sgc@drn.newsguy.com>,
   Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>In article <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>>>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.
HTML
>>
>>This was not a distribution tape.
>
>Speaking as the guy who read in that tape, I can tell you that it
>is an "official" DEC tape. 

Yea, Yea.  I know.  I was speaking from the other end.  I wrote
the damned packaging plan.  I'm not pissed at you, Tim.  Just
so bloody frustrated at idiocy...mostly mine.  I completely
underestimated the intent of destruction of the group's leadership.
I knew they were destroying people; I had no idea that they
had the balls to zero the bits.

> ... Note, however, that the printed label reads
>"DECNET-10 V4.0 SUP", so it is reasonable to suppose that this was
>a "supplement" tape, and may not have everything.

AFAICT, it's a supplement to the stuff shipped as part of the
7.03 product.

>
>>And where the hell are the sources?  Who the fuck redefined the
>>dammn packaging plan?  Where is the BLISS36 used to build all
>>that stuff?
>
>I can only read in and make available tapes that folks care to share with
>me.  

Yes.  I'm now remembering where those tapes came from.  If I can
stay pissed, I'll be working on correcting it all.  I just get so 
damned tired of cleaning up their messes.


> ...I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting away
>in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to
>preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
>such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!

Most of the problem lies with the fact that everything that was
archived within the company is just gone despite the contract
with the archive people.  We didn't bring home copies of stuff
because there were two places where the bits were permanently
stored, archives and SDC.  Besides it was a tad against one's
contract to privately keep all this stuff.

>
>Was there any discussion of software preservation at the 36-bit part of
>"DECWORLD 2001" that was discussed here?  I would've been there to plead 
for
>tapes myself, if someone had told me it was happening... maybe the 
preservation
>of software just isn't important enough compared to swapping old stories?
>(Wasn't TCMHC there to help out with this?)  Were the DECWORLD 2001
>participants even made aware that some of us are struggling to save this 
old
>software?

WEll, if the TCMHC is that museum that Bell tinkers with, I wouldn't
give them anything that smelled of 36-bits.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: 30 Jul 2001 11:44:57 -0700
Organization: Spies In The Wire
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6259 alt.folklore.computers:86221

From article <9k3tue0sgc@drn.newsguy.com>, by Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>:
> In article <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
> Was there any discussion of software preservation at the 36-bit part of
> "DECWORLD 2001" that was discussed here?

Eric and I brought the subject up at the 36 bit dinner. Neither of us have
been contacted by anyone since. My feeling when the subject was brought up
was a collective "oh well.." by the participants when we said that Compaq
no longer had any 36 bit software.

>  I would've been there to plead for
> tapes myself, if someone had told me it was happening... maybe the preservation
> of software just isn't important enough compared to swapping old stories?

Again, Eric and I talked to the people that came that we could. My reaction
afterwards was that for the most part, people either weren't willing to admit
that they have the software, or they flat out said that they didn't.

> (Wasn't TCMHC there to help out with this?)  Were the DECWORLD 2001
> participants even made aware that some of us are struggling to save this old
> software?

There was nothing official said. The only statement made was in the conference
introduction when John said the museum was interested in the historical
preservation of artifacts, included documentation and software. 

Eric had his GT40 on display, and I made a small sign there requesting that
people contact us about archiving, but nothing has come of it.

######

From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: 30 Jul 2001 12:22:19 -0700
Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com]
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In article <9k49v9$264$1@spies.com>, aek@spies.com says...
>> (Wasn't TCMHC there to help out with this?)  Were the DECWORLD 2001
>> participants even made aware that some of us are struggling to save this old
>> software?
>
>There was nothing official said. The only statement made was in the conference
>introduction when John said the museum was interested in the historical
>preservation of artifacts, included documentation and software. 
>
>Eric had his GT40 on display, and I made a small sign there requesting that
>people contact us about archiving, but nothing has come of it.

Thanks, it's good to know that a good attempt was made by you and Eric!

Tim.

######

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <j5387.230$4H4.288225@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <EGk87.483$4H4.1128836@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com> <fkY87.113368$Tx5.1381074@e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com> <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9k3tue0sgc@drn.newsguy.com>
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In alt.sys.pdp10 Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> In article <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>>>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HTML
>>
>>This was not a distribution tape.

> Speaking as the guy who read in that tape, I can tell you that it
> is an "official" DEC tape.  Note, however, that the printed label reads
> "DECNET-10 V4.0 SUP", so it is reasonable to suppose that this was
> a "supplement" tape, and may not have everything.

OK, with that and a couple other kicks in the brain, plus a bunch of good
info I think I know how to catagorize it.  My thanks to everyone that's
helped to figure out what this is.

>>And where the hell are the sources?  Who the fuck redefined the
>>dammn packaging plan?  Where is the BLISS36 used to build all
>>that stuff?

> I can only read in and make available tapes that folks care to share with
> me.  I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting away
> in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to
> preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
> such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!

I don't think *anyone* has a complaint with you Tim, you've done a great
job!  BTW, thank you for making the ISO images available, I'd never gotten
around to ordering the PDP-10 one, I'll be burning a copy of it ASAP.

			Zane

######

From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:50:12 GMT
Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd
Message-ID: <996601812snz@dsl.co.uk>
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In article <9k681f$p06$1@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com  writes:

> In article <9k3tue0sgc@drn.newsguy.com>,
>    Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> 
> > ...I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting away
> >in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to
> >preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
> >such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!
> 
> Most of the problem lies with the fact that everything that was
> archived within the company is just gone despite the contract
> with the archive people.  We didn't bring home copies of stuff
> because there were two places where the bits were permanently
> stored, archives and SDC.  Besides it was a tad against one's
> contract to privately keep all this stuff.

It sounds as if you've got a variation on what happened with the Elliott
903/905/920B/920C source code.  After GEC bought the real-time side of
Elliotts (via the MECSL conglomerate) from the short time that the 900
series was under the aegis of ICL (along with the 4100 & 803/805 series),
most development stopped.

There were one or two new pieces of software (one idea in particular was
brilliant, where the assembler output on paper-tape was wound up
front-end-first, so that when the linker read it in, the symbol table
came first), but mostly development was moribund.

Eventually, the Elliott Computer Users Association got them to agree to
release the sources to the membership, for cataloguing, and with a view
to permitting user-driven development.

The problem was, no one really knew where the sources were.  Large
swathes of them were found (this is all on paper tape or printout, OK?)
in series of tea chests stored in a bike shed (i.e. virtually "outside")
at Borehamwood.

I was the poor schmuck that sorted through this lot; it didn't exactly
improve the preservation when mice got into a storeroom and nibbled some
of the tapes whilst they were under my "jurisdiction" (although luckily
every single one of those tapes was a duplicate; phew)

-- 
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
    "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of
    distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr-
    easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 15:53:19 -0700
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From article <996601812snz@dsl.co.uk>, by bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}):
> 
> I was the poor schmuck that sorted through this lot; it didn't exactly
> improve the preservation when mice got into a storeroom and nibbled some
> of the tapes whilst they were under my "jurisdiction" (although luckily
> every single one of those tapes was a duplicate; phew)
> 

Does it still exist today?

######

From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 00:11:26 GMT
Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd
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In article <9k7csv$cd$1@spies.com> aek@spies.com "Al Kossow" writes:

> From article <996601812snz@dsl.co.uk>, by bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton
>  Kelly}):
> > 
> > I was the poor schmuck that sorted through this lot; it didn't exactly
> > improve the preservation when mice got into a storeroom and nibbled some
> > of the tapes whilst they were under my "jurisdiction" (although luckily
> > every single one of those tapes was a duplicate; phew)
> > 
> 
> Does it still exist today?

I don't know: I've had no involvement with the 900 series since 1981.
Last I heard, Terry Froggatt was "doing things" with the Algol 60
compiler sources, as was Don Hunter.

After cataloguing, I shipped everything back to the ECUA secretariat
(which by that time was the GECCUA secretariat).

-- 
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
    "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of
    distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr-
    easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs

######

From: "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:59:47 -0400
Organization: The Ocean State Free-Net
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Good Things come to those who are patient...

Tim Shoppa wrote:
> 
> me.  I'm quite certain that the real tapes we want are happily rotting away
> in somebody's basement because they don't know how to or don't want to

Tim, and this is said with all due respect and the most sincere
appreciation for your preservation efforts, I am even _more_ certain
that this is NOT true :)


You see, the Retro-Computing Society of RI has been quietly plotting and
scheming a most significant acquisition.  We had planned to hold off on
the public announcement 'till we had the goods in hand, but at this
point it is a done deal.  Since you asked, we'll give you a preview of
our good fortune - we have struck the Mother Load. 


RCS is preparing to take delivery of an extensive collection of original
(ie. DIGITAL labeled) media containing TOPS-10, DECnet and related
software.  There are DECtapes, 9-track reels, RP06 packs and RX01's. 
From what I have personally seen it appears to be a _complete_ series of
distribution releases, w/ updates, et al dating back to about 1985,
maybe as early as '82.

RCS will soon have the whole lot of it, and for those who are unfamiliar
with our group: rest assured that we have both the means and a strong
commitment to fully preserve each and every bit of it.


But wait, it gets even better: it's unlikely that we will find even one
iota of rot in the bunch.  The reel-to-reel tapes, for instance, were
pulled from a climate controlled, archival quality, offsite storage
facility only 1 month ago!  The remainder of the media is currently in
an air-conditioned, HEPA-filtered machine room where it has been safely
stored since the day it was delivered by DEC.


The first batch of DECtapes and 9-trk reels are en route to Providence
and will be hand delivered within the hour.  Watch this space for an
initial inventory.  The rest of the hual will arrive over the next
couple of weekends, and we'll be posting periodic updates here as we
accession the items into our collection. 

And yes, of course, we will make the contents fully available.


> preserve them.  If you can pull any strings among folks who may have
> such tapes, we will be *forever* grateful!

Is this close to what you had in mind ;)


-mikeu

Michael Umbricht
The Retro-Computing Society of RI
http://www.osfn.org/rcs/

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
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"Michael L. Umbricht" wrote:
> 
> RCS is preparing to take delivery of an extensive collection of original
> (ie. DIGITAL labeled) media containing TOPS-10, DECnet and related
> software.  There are DECtapes, 9-track reels, RP06 packs and RX01's.
> From what I have personally seen it appears to be a _complete_ series of
> distribution releases, w/ updates, et al dating back to about 1985,
> maybe as early as '82.

Do you have the ability to read DECtapes? I have a person who is in possesion
of a "box full of DECtapes" that came from a KA10 long ago (LIRICS).
 
> RCS will soon have the whole lot of it, and for those who are unfamiliar
> with our group: rest assured that we have both the means and a strong
> commitment to fully preserve each and every bit of it.

I'm willing to do a mirror!

> But wait, it gets even better: it's unlikely that we will find even one
> iota of rot in the bunch.  The reel-to-reel tapes, for instance, were
> pulled from a climate controlled, archival quality, offsite storage
> facility only 1 month ago!  The remainder of the media is currently in
> an air-conditioned, HEPA-filtered machine room where it has been safely
> stored since the day it was delivered by DEC.

I had a collection of tapes from circa '84 to '89 and each one was NOT
in a climate-controlled atmosphere. They cycled between 20 degrees F and
120 degrees F each year for about 14 years. I was able to read each
and every one on a sun3 with 1600BPI tape drive. Clean the heads? Yes,
between each pass, since they got a little gunky on each pass :)

aak

######

From: "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:42:27 -0400
Organization: The Ocean State Free-Net
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6422 alt.folklore.computers:86929

Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> "Michael L. Umbricht" wrote:
> >
> > RCS is preparing to take delivery of an extensive collection of original
> > (ie. DIGITAL labeled) media containing TOPS-10, DECnet and related
> > software.  There are DECtapes, 9-track reels, RP06 packs and RX01's.
>
> Do you have the ability to read DECtapes? I have a person who is in possesion
> of a "box full of DECtapes" that came from a KA10 long ago (LIRICS).

Does LINCtape count :)  Let me check around with the other RCS members.

I configured a system this morning to read the 9-track tapes.  The first
batch should be online in just a few days.

-mikeu

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
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"Zane H. Healy" wrote:
> 
> In alt.sys.pdp10 Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:
> > I have read tapes that date back almost 20 years, and the only
> > thing I had to do was to make sure I cleaned the head on each pass.
> 
> I've read 9-Track tapes that were over 20 years old, of course this was in a
> production environment, and they'd spent their entire life in a tape vault.

My personal backup tapes were written on 18 years ago and they were NOT stored in
a nice environment. The only problem I had with them was sometimes the tape
came loose on the reel, causing my CDC 9-track (TU80-style) to fault.
The tapes themselves are at least 23 years old.

Friends have magtapes in their closets, and I've been very successful
reading them. One of them had a read error but the drive retried two
times and the data came off (probably dirt on the head).

> > In general, magtapes last a long time - as long as you have a good
> > tape drive to read them with.
> 
> 9-Track's might, but it's good to remember that others such as 8mm's and
> 4mm's won't.  Personally I won't trust either of those past a couple years.
> If you read the one government report that was available online a few years
> ago, 9-Track and DLT are the two best types of tape to store your data to.
> However, the oldest DLT's I've used are 6-7 years old so I really can't say
> based on personal experience.

4mm tapes stink, I've had some very good experiences with 5GB Exabyte 8mm's,
they still read after many years.

Of course DLT's are great, look at how wide the tape is (1"?). Plus,
they were made by DEC to begin with :)

aak

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
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"Keith F. Lynch" wrote:
> 
> Michael L. Umbricht <mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org> wrote:
> > From what I have personally seen it appears to be a _complete_
> > series of distribution releases, w/ updates, et al dating back
> > to about 1985, maybe as early as '82.
> 
> Good luck.  Tapes are only guaranteed readable for three years.

I have read tapes that date back almost 20 years, and the only
thing I had to do was to make sure I cleaned the head on each pass.

I have a VMS distribution on magtape from around '78, and it read
fine on the first past, and the second, the third, the fourth,
etc. etc.

In general, magtapes last a long time - as long as you have a good
tape drive to read them with. 

aak

######

From: "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:09:22 -0400
Organization: The Ocean State Free-Net
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Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> "Keith F. Lynch" wrote:
> >
> > Michael L. Umbricht <mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org> wrote:
> > > From what I have personally seen it appears to be a _complete_
> > > series of distribution releases, w/ updates, et al dating back
> > > to about 1985, maybe as early as '82.
> >
> > Good luck.  Tapes are only guaranteed readable for three years.

Thanks, but we didn't need any luck.  The first 6 tapes (the earliest
from this batch, dating to 1986 and '88) have been read, verified, and
read a second time without errors or diffs.
 
> I have read tapes that date back almost 20 years, and the only
> thing I had to do was to make sure I cleaned the head on each pass.

Yes, a bottle of alcohol (not for me! for the heads) and a quantity of
lint-free lens cloth  and Q-tips must be kept close at hand.

BTW, RCS frequently reads pdp-12 LINCtapes from _more_ than 20 years
ago, with no trouble.

-mikeu

Michael Umbricht
The Retro-Computing Society of RI
http://www.osfn.org/rcs/

######

From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@nowhere.in.particular>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simu
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6454 alt.folklore.computers:87303

In article <l04gntctq3ltnm2ol1tjc479ird81bvjr3@4ax.com>
alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) writes:

>On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:23:27 -0400, Alexandre Pechtchanski
><alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>
>[ follow-up to myself in vain attempt to prevent flames ;-) ]
>
>>On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:09:22 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht"
>><mikeu@osfn.org> wrote:
>>[ snip ]
>>
>>>BTW, RCS frequently reads pdp-12 LINCtapes from _more_ than 20 years
>>>ago, with no trouble.
>>
>>LINCtapes as well as DECtapes (was there actually any difference?)
>>are almost indestructible.  I remember successfully reading DECtape
>>with a hope (1/4", as
>        ^^^^
>             hole, of course it was a hole!
>>in paper filing) punched through.

Freudian slip?  From what I've heard, DECtapes are one of the few
tapes where, even with a _hole_ like that, you'd have some _hope_
of recovering the data.

Gaffer tape, duct tape, DECtape, LINCtape...  Help!  I'm getting
tangled up in threads!

--
cgibbs@nowhere.in.particular (Charlie Gibbs)
I'm switching ISPs - watch this space.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simulator refs)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 01 07:23:35 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6445 alt.folklore.computers:87169

In article <143gnt8ke8fhdgnmbu7kve7u3ple9h1lib@4ax.com>,
   Alexandre Pechtchanski <alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:09:22 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
>wrote:
>[ snip ]
>
>>BTW, RCS frequently reads pdp-12 LINCtapes from _more_ than 20 years
>>ago, with no trouble.
>
>LINCtapes as well as DECtapes (was there actually any difference?) 

Weren't LINCtapes the green ones?

> ..are almost
>indestructible.  I remember successfully reading 
>DECtape with a hope (1/4", as
>in paper filing) punched through.
>
<grin>  I don't think I ever tried to store mine in the Notebooks.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simulator refs)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6468 alt.folklore.computers:87426

In alt.sys.pdp10 Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:
> I have read tapes that date back almost 20 years, and the only
> thing I had to do was to make sure I cleaned the head on each pass.

I've read 9-Track tapes that were over 20 years old, of course this was in a
production environment, and they'd spent their entire life in a tape vault.

> In general, magtapes last a long time - as long as you have a good
> tape drive to read them with. 

9-Track's might, but it's good to remember that others such as 8mm's and
4mm's won't.  Personally I won't trust either of those past a couple years. 
If you read the one government report that was available online a few years
ago, 9-Track and DLT are the two best types of tape to store your data to. 
However, the oldest DLT's I've used are 6-7 years old so I really can't say
based on personal experience.

			Zane

######

From: Alexandre Pechtchanski <alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simulator refs)
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:09:22 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
wrote:
[ snip ]

>BTW, RCS frequently reads pdp-12 LINCtapes from _more_ than 20 years
>ago, with no trouble.

LINCtapes as well as DECtapes (was there actually any difference?) are almost
indestructible.  I remember successfully reading DECtape with a hope (1/4", as
in paper filing) punched through.

-- 
[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simulator refs)
Date: 13 Aug 2001 10:32:36 -0700
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From article <143gnt8ke8fhdgnmbu7kve7u3ple9h1lib@4ax.com>, by Alexandre Pechtchanski <alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu>:
> 
> LINCtapes as well as DECtapes (was there actually any difference?)

yes.

LINCtapes are read with the motors running counterclockwise, and have a different block 
encoding format from DECtapes, which is why they can't be read on 'smart' DECtape controllers
(TC08, TC11, ...)

I should bug Eric about getting the 12 LINCtape controller docs to scan, so the differences
can be put on line.

I haven't looked to see if the TD8E is dumb enough to be capable of reading LINCtape blocks.

######

From: Alexandre Pechtchanski <alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simulator refs)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6465 alt.folklore.computers:87395

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:23:27 -0400, Alexandre Pechtchanski
<alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
[ follow-up to myself in vain attempt to prevent flames ;-) ]

>On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:09:22 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
>wrote:
>[ snip ]
>
>>BTW, RCS frequently reads pdp-12 LINCtapes from _more_ than 20 years
>>ago, with no trouble.
>
>LINCtapes as well as DECtapes (was there actually any difference?) are almost
>indestructible.  I remember successfully reading DECtape with a hope (1/4", as
                                                                 ^^^^ 
             hole, of course it was a hole!
>in paper filing) punched through.

-- 
[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  archives/simulator refs)
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> I haven't looked to see if the TD8E is dumb enough to be capable of
> reading LINCtape blocks.

It is dumb enough.

######

Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simu
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"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@nowhere.in.particular> writes:

>In article <l04gntctq3ltnm2ol1tjc479ird81bvjr3@4ax.com>
>alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) writes:

>>On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:23:27 -0400, Alexandre Pechtchanski
>><alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>>
>>[ follow-up to myself in vain attempt to prevent flames ;-) ]
>>
>>>On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:09:22 -0400, "Michael L. Umbricht"
>>><mikeu@osfn.org> wrote:
>>>[ snip ]
>>>
>>>>BTW, RCS frequently reads pdp-12 LINCtapes from _more_ than 20 years
>>>>ago, with no trouble.
>>>
>>>LINCtapes as well as DECtapes (was there actually any difference?)
>>>are almost indestructible.  I remember successfully reading DECtape
>>>with a hope (1/4", as
>>        ^^^^
>>             hole, of course it was a hole!
>>>in paper filing) punched through.

>Freudian slip?  From what I've heard, DECtapes are one of the few
>tapes where, even with a _hole_ like that, you'd have some _hope_
>of recovering the data.

QIC tapes had end-of-media holes - probably still do as the tape
isn't physcally-attached to the spindle; just wound on... the drive
loop was an interesting gadget.
-- 
 /"\  Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
 \ /      ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!       |
  X       against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature|
 / \      and postings          | to help me spread!            |

######

From: "Keith F. Lynch" <kfl@KeithLynch.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: 10 Aug 2001 19:39:18 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6446 alt.folklore.computers:87194

Michael L. Umbricht <mikeu@shrimp.osfn.org> wrote:
> From what I have personally seen it appears to be a _complete_
> series of distribution releases, w/ updates, et al dating back
> to about 1985, maybe as early as '82.

Good luck.  Tapes are only guaranteed readable for three years.

> Michael Umbricht
> The Retro-Computing Society of RI
> http://www.osfn.org/rcs/

But do you have the old (pre-1981) HUMAN-NETS archives?  I've been
looking for them for years.  Thanks.
-- 
Keith F. Lynch - kfl@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail sent to thousands of randomly collected
addresses is not acceptable, and I do complain to the spammer's ISP.

######

From: John W Hall <NOTwexsessaQUITE@telusplanet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
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Someone wrote: 
>Good luck.  Tapes are only guaranteed readable for three years.
>

I still recall the consternation I caused at one place I worked at,
when I announced the discovery of hundreds of Write-Only tapes in the
library. These were the IBM-compatible 1/2" jobbies with the 'opening
band' perripheral seal. 

Around many of the tape exit ports I noticed intriguing brown smudges.
Closer inspection disclosed that the edge of the tapes was cutting a
groove in the seal/band as it went through the port. The vendor CE
could not find the cause, but I did (I was previously an IBM CE) -
four of the 8 drives in the shop had a bullet-nosed spring plunger
which served to nudge the tape reel so that it was spinning with no
wobble, i.e. was flat against the hub flange. The other four drives
did not have this modification. OOPS!

John W. Hall, Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Helping People Prosper in the Information Age.

######

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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6475 alt.folklore.computers:87460

Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote:
> >
> > > 4mm tapes stink, I've had some very good experiences with 5GB Exabyte 8mm's,
> > > they still read after many years.
> >
> > I've been able to read >12 year old QIC tapes. I have been able to read
> > 4mm tapes without too much problem either, but under the condition that
> > they are archival: used once and stored. If you use a 4mm tape over and
> > over, they just cannot handle it.
> 
> Actually, after reading my own post, I remembered a 4mm tape I had to rely
> on once. It was sitting in the same drive for the last 5 years, re-written
> every DAY. The hard drive failed and I had to recover from the tape - amazingly,
> I read an entire backup of a couple of UNIX partitions and no read errors.
> It was only a 2GB tape (4 compressed), but I was totally floored - I was
> sure the customer (sub-customer) was screwed.
> 
> > 8mm is a little better.
> 
> 8mm stinks because of bad firmware mostly. Many of the Exabytes I've
> used are rock-solid as long as you have a version of firmware that was
> not the first (or tenth). Firmware revision histories included things
> that would physically screw your tape. Reminds me of a company that
> I worked for, they designed a recon camera that if the software
> commanded it to, it would sever it's own control wires. The answer?
> Make sure the software had no bugs - put physical stops in
> range-of-motion? Hey, that would burn out the motors...
> 
> > I really wish I could find a decent solution for personal backups,
> > because while a CD might last a long time if care for, they just
> > don't hold enough for the larger archives.  Or maybe I'm just
> > impatient, who knows.
> 
> DVD's are a little bigger, but the range of data that I would like to
> archive RIGHT NOW spans at least 100 gigabytes. And that's only personal
> software and data that I would like to keep around (personal means
> anything I find interesting that is in my house, not something I
> wrote personally :)
> 
> > > Of course DLT's are great, look at how wide the tape is (1"?). Plus,
> > > they were made by DEC to begin with :)
> >
> > That would be great if I could afford them. Removable storage is
> > pretty dismal right now, and the focus seems to be on capacity or
> > conviencience: not both, and very little focus on archival storage.
> >
> > Everything I have read about that is supposed to last is either going
> > away, or very expensive.
> 
> I know the feeling - to make a current snapshot of my data would take
> huge piles of CD's and a lot of time...
> 
> The only thing I can say is to make multiple archive copies on the
> cheapest media you can, and then turn over the entire archive every
> few years (whatever half the media life is), and redo it in the
> current technology. I've done this ... I still have loads of
> 5.25" floppies that have been copied to CD - but I still have
> the floppies ... and the hard-drive copies, and the CD's, and the...
> oh well, you get the idea.
> 
> aak

Remember also to back all executables  - including the driver software
on a standard media. You don't want to have the only copy of the driver
software backed on tape. That is the problem now days - backup software
requires a full OS to run. Linux is better than M$ but still a pain.
Ben.
  
-- 
Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts.
"Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk
Now with schematics.

######

From: shannon@daydream.shannon.net (Charles Shannon Hendrix)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: 14 Aug 2001 15:03:32 -0400
Organization: 32-bit
Message-ID: <9lbsm4$n8b$1@daydream.shannon.net>
References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <3B748D87.BEE42833@bartek.dontspamme.net> <DScd7.49041$C7.14359220@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com> <3B756307.5A265181@bartek.dontspamme.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6478 alt.folklore.computers:87507

In article <3B756307.5A265181@bartek.dontspamme.net>,
Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:

> 4mm tapes stink, I've had some very good experiences with 5GB Exabyte 8mm's,
> they still read after many years.

I've been able to read >12 year old QIC tapes. I have been able to read
4mm tapes without too much problem either, but under the condition that
they are archival: used once and stored. If you use a 4mm tape over and
over, they just cannot handle it.

8mm is a little better.

I really wish I could find a decent solution for personal backups,
because while a CD might last a long time if care for, they just
don't hold enough for the larger archives.  Or maybe I'm just
impatient, who knows.

> Of course DLT's are great, look at how wide the tape is (1"?). Plus,
> they were made by DEC to begin with :)

That would be great if I could afford them. Removable storage is
pretty dismal right now, and the focus seems to be on capacity or
conviencience: not both, and very little focus on archival storage.

Everything I have read about that is supposed to last is either going
away, or very expensive.

-- 
shannon@widomaker.com  _________________________________________________
______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexistentialist
 "Castles are sacked in war, Chieftains are scattered far, Truth is a
 fixed star, Eileen aroon!" -- Gerald Griffin

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6482 alt.folklore.computers:87521

Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote:
> 
> > 4mm tapes stink, I've had some very good experiences with 5GB Exabyte 8mm's,
> > they still read after many years.
> 
> I've been able to read >12 year old QIC tapes. I have been able to read
> 4mm tapes without too much problem either, but under the condition that
> they are archival: used once and stored. If you use a 4mm tape over and
> over, they just cannot handle it.

Actually, after reading my own post, I remembered a 4mm tape I had to rely
on once. It was sitting in the same drive for the last 5 years, re-written
every DAY. The hard drive failed and I had to recover from the tape - amazingly,
I read an entire backup of a couple of UNIX partitions and no read errors.
It was only a 2GB tape (4 compressed), but I was totally floored - I was
sure the customer (sub-customer) was screwed.

> 8mm is a little better.

8mm stinks because of bad firmware mostly. Many of the Exabytes I've
used are rock-solid as long as you have a version of firmware that was
not the first (or tenth). Firmware revision histories included things
that would physically screw your tape. Reminds me of a company that
I worked for, they designed a recon camera that if the software
commanded it to, it would sever it's own control wires. The answer?
Make sure the software had no bugs - put physical stops in
range-of-motion? Hey, that would burn out the motors...

> I really wish I could find a decent solution for personal backups,
> because while a CD might last a long time if care for, they just
> don't hold enough for the larger archives.  Or maybe I'm just
> impatient, who knows.

DVD's are a little bigger, but the range of data that I would like to
archive RIGHT NOW spans at least 100 gigabytes. And that's only personal
software and data that I would like to keep around (personal means 
anything I find interesting that is in my house, not something I 
wrote personally :)

> > Of course DLT's are great, look at how wide the tape is (1"?). Plus,
> > they were made by DEC to begin with :)
> 
> That would be great if I could afford them. Removable storage is
> pretty dismal right now, and the focus seems to be on capacity or
> conviencience: not both, and very little focus on archival storage.
> 
> Everything I have read about that is supposed to last is either going
> away, or very expensive.

I know the feeling - to make a current snapshot of my data would take
huge piles of CD's and a lot of time...

The only thing I can say is to make multiple archive copies on the
cheapest media you can, and then turn over the entire archive every
few years (whatever half the media life is), and redo it in the
current technology. I've done this ... I still have loads of
5.25" floppies that have been copied to CD - but I still have
the floppies ... and the hard-drive copies, and the CD's, and the...
oh well, you get the idea.

aak

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6480 alt.folklore.computers:87518

Ben Franchuk wrote:
> 
> Remember also to back all executables  - including the driver software
> on a standard media. You don't want to have the only copy of the driver
> software backed on tape. That is the problem now days - backup software
> requires a full OS to run. Linux is better than M$ but still a pain.
> Ben.

I guess I need to archive "tar" in a favorable format too :)

aak

######

User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
	 archives/simulator refs)
From: Steve Garwood <sterling.garwood@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6474 alt.folklore.computers:87459

It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone versions
of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format and
restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild a
blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..



in article 3B79C8B4.890F0815@bartek.dontspamme.net, Arthur Krewat at
krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net wrote on 8/14/01 7:57 PM:

> Ben Franchuk wrote:
>> 
>> Remember also to back all executables  - including the driver software
>> on a standard media. You don't want to have the only copy of the driver
>> software backed on tape. That is the problem now days - backup software
>> requires a full OS to run. Linux is better than M$ but still a pain.
>> Ben.
> 
> I guess I need to archive "tar" in a favorable format too :)
> 
> aak

######

From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
	 archives/simulator refs)
Date: 15 Aug 2001 03:02:03 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6483 alt.folklore.computers:87522

In article <B79F3CA4.1D1C9%sterling.garwood@worldnet.att.net>,
Steve Garwood  <sterling.garwood@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone versions
>of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format and
>restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild a
>blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..

http://picobsd.org/

-- 
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.					WWFD?

"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept"
	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6484 alt.folklore.computers:87525

Steve Garwood wrote:
> 
> It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone versions
> of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format and
> restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild a
> blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..

Actually, I have seen staticly linked versions of tar/ufsrestore and other
stuff somewhere, although it may have been on a SunOS system.

aak

######

From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6481 alt.folklore.computers:87519

"Michael N. LeVine" wrote:
> 
> > > restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild
> > > a
> > > blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..
> >
> > Actually, I have seen staticly linked versions of tar/ufsrestore and
> > other
> > stuff somewhere, although it may have been on a SunOS system.
> >
> > aak
> 
> With the versions of U**X I am familar with, the O/S
> software CD was bootable to a mini version of the OS (mini root).
> During the set up of the OS install, I could break to a command line
> prompt and was able to run tar,cpio,restore,etc as required.

Yes, that's true - I've rebuilt a few systems that way. Last month
as a matter of fact.

You can always bring up a cmdtool so you can do the dirty work
by hand :)

BTW, recovering from a blown up FreeBSD system was quite easy
when I was using version 2.x ... :)

aak

######

From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: 15 Aug 2001 13:54:40 -0400
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In article <3B79DAF9.E8D2D0A7@bartek.dontspamme.net>,
Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:
>Steve Garwood wrote:
>> 
>> It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone versions
>> of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format and
>> restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild a
>> blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..
>
>Actually, I have seen staticly linked versions of tar/ufsrestore and other
>stuff somewhere, although it may have been on a SunOS system.
>
>aak

Looks statically linked here.

# uname -a

FreeBSD i4got.pechter.dyndns.org 4.4-PRERELEASE 


# file /bin/pax /usr/bin/tar /sbin/restore /sbin/dump

/bin/pax: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped
/usr/bin/tar: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped
/sbin/restore: setgid ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped
/sbin/dump:    setgid ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped

-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  284984 Aug 12 16:44 /bin/pax
-r-xr-sr-x  2 root  tty    332300 Aug 12 16:50 /sbin/dump
-r-xr-sr-x  2 root  tty    358936 Aug 12 16:51 /sbin/restore
-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  277520 Aug 12 16:47 /usr/bin/tar

Bill
-- 
-- 
  Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a 
  villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 
  bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org

######

From: "Michael N. LeVine" <mlevine@redshift.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:56:19 -0700
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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In article <3B79DAF9.E8D2D0A7@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat 
<krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:

> Steve Garwood wrote:
> > 
> > It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone 
> > versions
> > of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format 
> > and
> > restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild 
> > a
> > blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..
> 
> Actually, I have seen staticly linked versions of tar/ufsrestore and 
> other
> stuff somewhere, although it may have been on a SunOS system.
> 
> aak

With the versions of U**X I am familar with, the O/S
software CD was bootable to a mini version of the OS (mini root).
During the set up of the OS install, I could break to a command line
prompt and was able to run tar,cpio,restore,etc as required.
-- 
Michael LeVine -  mlevine@redshift.com
"Thirty days hath September, April, June and November.
All the rest have thirty one except for Gypsy Rose Lee 
and every one knew what she had" - Mel Blanc

######

From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:55:31 +0200
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On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 01:37:58 GMT
Steve Garwood <sterling.garwood@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

SG> It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone versions
SG> of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format and
SG> restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild a
SG> blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..

	But FreeBSD does - two ways!

	boot from CD

	boot from fixit floppy (still possible now).

	If you have neither then a trip to the nearest internet connection
with floppy or CD writing available is needed. Linux also had a rescue
disc or somesuch last time I looked for this sort of thing.

-- 
    Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun

	 	        http://www.best.com/~sohara

######

From: "Carl R. Friend" <carl.friend@rcsri.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:35:28 -0400
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Weren't LINCtapes the green ones?

   Yes, but the physical medium was the same and the size of the reels
were identical.  The biggest difference is that LINCtape reads (and
writes) "backwards" from DECtape.  Or is that the other way around?

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com                +---------------------+
| http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum       | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+

######

From: shannon@daydream.shannon.net (Charles Shannon Hendrix)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: 19 Aug 2001 17:25:23 -0400
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In article <3B799856.41A8D6EB@bartek.dontspamme.net>,
Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote:

> I read an entire backup of a couple of UNIX partitions and no read errors.
> It was only a 2GB tape (4 compressed), but I was totally floored - I was
> sure the customer (sub-customer) was screwed.

Same here. I once lost everything on a system of mine and had a set of
4mm tapes. A friend of mine had complained endlessly about restoring 4mm
backups, and at work we were having trouble. I came very close to saying
the hell with it, but did the restore and it worked.

I try to remember to mark the tape labels for each write, and I have
heard you can actually read a bit of data from a 4mm tape that will
tell you how many times it has been used.  

> 8mm stinks because of bad firmware mostly. Many of the Exabytes I've
[snip]

Didn't Exabyte stop making their 8mm drives in favor of another format
they have now?

> DVD's are a little bigger, but the range of data that I would like to
> archive RIGHT NOW spans at least 100 gigabytes. And that's only personal

The data I actually created is still pretty small. The only exception
to that is graphics, and I'm so terrible at it right now I'm not sure I
want to preserve it anyway.

But I do have a lot of files that represent a large time investment. DVD
might be good enough, but the drives are too expensive right now, and
the media's not cheap either. Also, I have been hearing that DVD is even
more sensitive to dirty disks and scratches than CD-ROM.

Some kind of MO disk would be nice, but they also tend to be expensive.
I hear they are very reliable though.

> The only thing I can say is to make multiple archive copies on the
> cheapest media you can, and then turn over the entire archive every
> few years (whatever half the media life is), and redo it in the
> current technology. I've done this ... I still have loads of
> 5.25" floppies that have been copied to CD - but I still have
> the floppies ... and the hard-drive copies, and the CD's, and the...
> oh well, you get the idea.

Yep.  I have 4mm dump tapes, CD backups using a program called cddump
(works much like dump, hence the name), configuration and small things
on archive 3.5" floppies, and some redundancy between two separate
systems.


-- 
shannon@widomaker.com  _________________________________________________
______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexenstentialist
 "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh
 unite!  Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael

######

From: shannon@daydream.shannon.net (Charles Shannon Hendrix)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image  
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: 19 Aug 2001 17:28:45 -0400
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In article <3B7926E4.90B4F78D@jetnet.ab.ca>,
Ben Franchuk  <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:

> Remember also to back all executables  - including the driver software
> on a standard media. You don't want to have the only copy of the driver
> software backed on tape. That is the problem now days - backup software
> requires a full OS to run. Linux is better than M$ but still a pain.
> Ben.

That's not necessary most of the time.

Most good backup software will run on a minimal system, and it's not
that hard to make it run from a CD or a floppy. Drivers and the backup
software will be on whatever system you restore to.

The only serious problem you might have it proprietary backup software.
That's one reason I stopped using BRU. First of all, I never saw much
advantage to using it, and secondly, I could not restore BRU archives to
a system that I'd not bought BRU for.

For the same reason, I hate it when a place I work for uses something
like Legato. I have actually rewritten programs before the "staff" could
find the software in Legato backup volumes... :)

-- 
shannon@widomaker.com  _________________________________________________
______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexenstentialist
 "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh
 unite!  Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael

######

From: "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image 
 archives/simulator refs)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:54:52 -0400
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Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> "Michael L. Umbricht" wrote:
> 
> Do you have the ability to read DECtapes? I have a person who is in possesion
> of a "box full of DECtapes" that came from a KA10 long ago (LIRICS).

We will soon.  This week we are transporting a KL10 to our facility. 
Even though we don't (yet) have three-phase service to run the system,
we can power up just the front end pdp-11 to read and transfer DECtapes.

-mikeu
Michael Umbricht

The Retro-Computing Society of RI
http://www.osfn.org/rcs/

######

Message-ID: <3B82A48C.35DCBDA3@jetnet.ab.ca>
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Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> Ben Franchuk wrote:
> >
> > Remember also to back all executables  - including the driver software
> > on a standard media. You don't want to have the only copy of the driver
> > software backed on tape. That is the problem now days - backup software
> > requires a full OS to run. Linux is better than M$ but still a pain.
> > Ben.
> 
> I guess I need to archive "tar" in a favorable format too :)
> 
> aak

RIM mode sounds just fine for TAR. :-)

-- 
Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts.
"Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk
Now with schematics.

######

From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The importance of preserving tapes (was Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs)
Date: 21 Aug 2001 11:16:52 -0400
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>SG> It always has amazed me that the *nix side didn't build standalone versions
>SG> of tar, fdisk, and format.... the mainframe side had standalone format and
>SG> restore utilities long ago ... and having the 'opportunity' to rebuild a
>SG> blown FreeBSD system I sure could have used one..

Unix *DID* have stand alone bootable tapes of shell, dd,
fsdb (file system editor) and such.
(I used them on my Zilog system 8000)
But making them was probably a PITA since it was so platform specific
and needed a LOT of support libraries that needed constant maintenance
to track the base system.

Linux does so much better with a bootable FLOPPY once again
so you get the full environment, not a minimal stand alone environment.
-- 
Jeffrey Jonas
jeffj@panix(dot)com
The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide

######

Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" <dougq@ixnayamspayiglou.com>
From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" <dougq@ixnayamspayiglou.com>
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"Charles Shannon Hendrix" <shannon@daydream.shannon.net> wrote in message
news:9lpas3$op3$1@daydream.shannon.net...
>
> Some kind of MO disk would be nice, but they also tend to be expensive.
> I hear they are very reliable though.
>

I've been an MO advocate since before I'd used it. A few months with
a 128MB drive convinced me to buy 3 230MB drives.

In using over a hundred cartridges, I've had two or three give me
media failures, but I think they were due to formatting errors (I'd
reformatted them on a Mac with a possibly unstable OS), not hard
media errors.

I'd like to find a 640MB drive, although capacities are now up to
2.3GB on a 3.5 inch cartridge.

Regards,

-dq

--
Surgically Excise the Pig-Latin from my e-mail address in order to reply...

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