From: "Daniel P. B. Smith" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 07:12:44 -0400 Lines: 74 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-151-203-19-105.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net (151.203.19.105) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 995713928 24342514 151.203.19.105 (16 [37534]) X-Orig-Path: dpbsmith User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!adsl-151-203-19-105.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85757 In 1965, when I was a student at MIT, the BBC produced a one-hour documentary entitled "How To Be First." This opinionated, but in my own opinion pretty accurate movie, seemed to touch on almost EVERYTHING at MIT in the sixties. (I thought I detected some British envy of the well-funded American researcher, and the source of the funding in MIT's connections with industry and the military was mentioned.) I recently became curious enough to ask the MIT Museum about this film. (My contact: Jennifer O'Neill, jlo@mit.edu). They have it, and were able to make a copy for a charge that seemed reasonable to me given that these are one-off hand-made copies by Museum personnel. The original was black-and-white, hand-held camera, cinema-verité stuff and the second-generation VHS copy is a little muddy, but perfectly watchable. In among scenes of student life and Edgerton photographing milk drop splashes are several interesting computer-folklore-related scenes. There is a scene showing Ray Tomlinson (not identified in the movie, but he has confirmed that it's him) at a PDP-1. It's over a minute long. This is the PDP-1 on the second floor of building 26, extensively modified by MIT, CRT display conveniently on a desktop, the front bay (operating switches and tape reader) conveniently detached and remote from the rest of the system. You see Ray load fanfolded paper tape into the reader, and you see the tape reader in action. You see him typing at the Soroban-modified IBM electric typewriter and you see it responding. You see graphs with labelled axes being displayed on the (random-X-Y-point-plotting, non-raster-scanning) CRT. You see him manipulating the graphs with a light pen. What's very interesting if you look for it--it isn't explained--is that you see the actual acquisition-and-tracking strategy. The light pen could "see" points plotted within an area that was perhaps a one-centimeter circle. To pick up the pen, first there is a sparkly random-dot display covering the entire screen. This continues for a fraction of a second until a dot happens to be plotted in the area that the light pen can "see." At that point, there is a transition to a tracking strategy. The visual appearance is that the light pen is projecting a plus-sign or crosshair onto the screen, but what is actually happening is that it scans a short vertical stroke at the last-known X position, find the extreme points of the stroke that are just within the pickup area, takes the midpoint as the current Y position, does a short horizontal stroke at that Y position, takes the midpoint as the current X position, etc. There is a discussion of Project Mac, a short interview with Fano, closeup shots of whatever kind of teletype was used then--NOT an ASR-33, these had jumping rectangular matrices. You get to re-experience how agonizingly slow those beasts were, hard to believe anyone ever got any computing done with them. There is a wonderful sequence where we follow Professor Douglas Ross--who I believe was an early pioneer of interactive computing, had something to do with adding a keyboard to Whirlwind and I think had something to do with early numerical-control machining--into his house, and the narrator explains that he is one of about two dozen MIT faculty that are actually able to use a computer _from his home_. You see Professor Ercolino Ferretti loading cards into a 7094 (I'd forgotten those plastic weights that were used to keep the last cards flat) and synthesizing music. The music plays in the background and you get the impression he is listening to it in realtime, which is surely not the case... And, of course, you see lots and lots of shots of MIT labs with literally dozens of analog Tektronix scopes and very few digital readouts of any kind in evidence. I didn't spot any rotary calculators in the labs, and I didn't see any slide rules except in once scene of students taking an exam. -- Daniel P. B. Smith Email address: dpbsmith@world.std.com "Lifetime forwarding" address: dpbsmith@alum.mit.edu ###### From: aes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:42:41 -0700 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: siegman-pbdsl1.stanford.edu Posted-And-Mailed: yes User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!siegman Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85810 In article , "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote: > In 1965, when I was a student at MIT, the BBC produced a one-hour > documentary entitled "How To Be First." This opinionated, but in my own > opinion pretty accurate movie, seemed to touch on almost EVERYTHING at > MIT in the sixties. Interesting post. Does the documentary by chance include any footage on laser or optics activities? (Charles Townes went to MIT in 1961.) ###### From: "Daniel P. B. Smith" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:17:30 -0400 Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-151-203-19-105.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.net (151.203.19.105) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 995761014 24097593 151.203.19.105 (16 [37534]) X-Orig-Path: dpbsmith User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!adsl-151-203-19-105.bostma.adsl.bellatlantic.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85753 In article , aes wrote: > In article , > "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote: > > > In 1965, when I was a student at MIT, the BBC produced a one-hour > > documentary entitled "How To Be First." This opinionated, but in my > > own > > opinion pretty accurate movie, seemed to touch on almost EVERYTHING at > > MIT in the sixties. > > Interesting post. > > Does the documentary by chance include any footage on laser or optics > activities? > > (Charles Townes went to MIT in 1961.) OK, I guess not EVERYTHING. Nothing about lasers or optics that I can recall. Townes does not appear in the film. I remember Townes... heard him speak ONCE... he came in one day to do a guest lecture in a the sophomore physics course I was taking. We were all very impressed at this exposure to The Great Man... we were much less respectful of our regular lecturer, Professor Henry Kendall. Had we but known. If I remember correctly Townes never used the word "laser," but insisted on referring to them as "optical masers." -- Daniel P. B. Smith Email address: dpbsmith@world.std.com "Lifetime forwarding" address: dpbsmith@alum.mit.edu ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Message-ID: <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 11 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:20:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 995822261 24.108.184.50 (Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:17:41 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:17:41 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85689 On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 07:12:44 -0400, "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote, in part: >-NOT an ASR-33, >these had jumping rectangular matrices. That would be the heavy-duty ASR-35. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/other/ch02.htm ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:34:03 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <995826843snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 995828153 mail2news:10550 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85795 In article <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere "John Savard" writes: > On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 07:12:44 -0400, "Daniel P. B. Smith" > wrote, in part: > > >-NOT an ASR-33, > >these had jumping rectangular matrices. > > That would be the heavy-duty ASR-35. Couldn't it also be the 28? ISTR that it too used a rectangular type box. (Somewhere or other I've got a Bell Systems Technical Journal of the mid-50s that describes the 28, but I cannot lay my hands on it right now.) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Message-ID: <3b5b5eba.1839651@news.powersurfr.com> References: <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> <995826843snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 33 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:19:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.184.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 995843791 24.108.184.50 (Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:16:31 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:16:31 MDT Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85696 On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:34:03 GMT, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote, in part: >In article <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> > jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere "John Savard" writes: >> On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 07:12:44 -0400, "Daniel P. B. Smith" >> wrote, in part: >> >-NOT an ASR-33, >> >these had jumping rectangular matrices. >> That would be the heavy-duty ASR-35. >Couldn't it also be the 28? ISTR that it too used a rectangular type >box. (Somewhere or other I've got a Bell Systems Technical Journal of >the mid-50s that describes the 28, but I cannot lay my hands on it right >now.) You are correct that both use the same basic mechanism. Since he said "not an ASR-33", and not "not an ASR-32" or "not a Model 19", however, I assumed he had other reason to know that an ASCII teletypewriter, rather than one using 5-level code, was in use. A Model 35 resembles a model 33, except it is "fatter" in appearance - or really taller. The model 28 is black in color. The lowercase model 38 used an assembly similar to the model 33's, but with a taller cylinder; there was also a heavy-duty model with lowercase, the model 37; I'm not sure what type of printing element it used. (The front of a model 37 is white in color.) John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/other/ch02.htm ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> <995826843snz@dsl.co.uk> <3b5b5eba.1839651@news.powersurfr.com> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT From: sarr@engin.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 27 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 01:35:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.146.69 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 995852120 207.75.146.69 (Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:35:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:35:20 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!sarr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85701 In article <3b5b5eba.1839651@news.powersurfr.com>, John Savard wrote: > >A Model 35 resembles a model 33, except it is "fatter" in appearance - >or really taller. The model 28 is black in color. My recollection is that the Model 35 was much wider and deeper as well. And the case was metal rather than plastic. Wasn't the 28 round topped, like the teleprinters in old movies about newspapers. >The lowercase model 38 used an assembly similar to the model 33's, but >with a taller cylinder; there was also a heavy-duty model with >lowercase, the model 37; I'm not sure what type of printing element it >used. (The front of a model 37 is white in color.) The 37 used a square block like the 35, but really square because it did twice as many characters. It was also possible to change the character elements to print really funny characters. -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org voice: +1 734 764 0253 home: +1 734 665 9591 JSTOR, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ 301 E Liberty, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2262 ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 23 Jul 2001 05:46:21 GMT Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9jgdnd$ldf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <995826843snz@dsl.co.uk> <3b5b5eba.1839651@news.powersurfr.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbl6kNDbTKRbNDe1gB4EnT8ShmT1Ac7uXBTlCt1y6Bn+CJFo8lNyn79 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2001 05:46:21 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85656 John Varela wrote: > At MITRE in the early 60s we were using ASR and KSR 28s with six-level > code. I don't know where they came from, but they were in the evaluation > SAGE sector at MIT Lincoln Labs. Could these have been the prototype Model 35s that used a modified Fieldata code instead of ASCII? I know they were field-tested in 1961 and 1962, but I don't know where. eric ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 23 Jul 2001 13:46:18 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9jh9ra$phd$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3b5b0b4b.2583650@news.powersurfr.com> <995826843snz@dsl.co.uk> <3b5b5eba.1839651@news.powersurfr.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 995895978 26157 128.29.251.13 (23 Jul 2001 13:46:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2001 13:46:18 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85584 javnews@earthlink.net (John Varela) writes: >At MITRE in the early 60s we were using ASR and KSR 28s with six-level code. >I don't know where they came from, but they were in the evaluation SAGE sector > at MIT Lincoln Labs. John, what was the reason for using a 6-level code? My guess would be to remove the need for sending LTRS and FIGS, or maybe the SAGE operations had a need for additional special characters. And what was the frame size? 5-level systems I worked with used 8 elements (start, five data, and two stop bits, although some machines used 7.42 elements by transmitting only a fractional second stop bit). Data rates? Joe Morris ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:24:53 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> References: On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:46:18, jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote: > > Physically, the 6- and 5-level 028 machines looked exactly alike. The > keyboards must have differed but I really don't remember. I don't recall the > data rate but it kept up with a reasonably skilled typist and the ASR input > was a lot faster than a typist. Traditionally, five-unit teleprinter circuits ran at either 50Bd or 45.5Bd; the former used a 7.5 bit data frame (one start bit, five data bits, 1.5 stop bits); I think someone else has already referred to a shorter stop bit which presumably belongs with the 45.5Bd circuits. This gives a maximum speed of 6-2/3 chars/sec; with the usual yardstick of a word being five characters plus a space gives a keying rate of 66wpm. Remember that telegraphists in their new role as teleprinter operators always typed at a nice even pace which corresponded to the cadence rate of the keyboard, unlike typewriter operators who might well have staccato burstiness in their keying. But by that time in Europe, firms such as Siemens in FRG and Creed in the UK had introduced teleprinters with higher Baud rates, such as the Creed 75 which managed 75Bd, i.e. 10 chars/sec or 100wpm. I wish I could remember whereabouts to lay my hands on the copy of the BSTJ that I mentioned before: it has a detailed description[1] of the Model 28[2] and might well indicate that it too could run at such higher speeds. [1] I recall being flabberghasted upon first reading this (it would be about 1961--3) to hear about the "stunt box" --- this could perform certain actions (such as closing contacts or performing a FORM feed) upon recognizing *sequences* of characters: the forerunner of ESCape sequences therefore. All my experience with teleprinters to that date were strictly one-byte one-action. [2] I think you'll find that it didn't have a leading 0; surely the 028 would be some sort of IBMery? -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 27 Jul 2001 03:32:46 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9jqncu$4p4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZMDREw2E8MC+QL3xyLP4nElCrsxlxbIo6Oo/jjyITF8542e2Salp06 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 03:32:46 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85898 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > But by that time in Europe, firms such as Siemens in FRG and Creed in the > UK had introduced teleprinters with higher Baud rates, such as the Creed > 75 which managed 75Bd, i.e. 10 chars/sec or 100wpm. I wish I could > remember whereabouts to lay my hands on the copy of the BSTJ that I > mentioned before: it has a detailed description[1] of the Model 28[2] and > might well indicate that it too could run at such higher speeds. There was a BSTJ article? If you find the citation, I'd like to know, because I've only seen the 1938 article about the Model 19. There is an article about the Model 28 in the March, 1954 issue of Communications and Electronics that gives some amount of detail. It mentions the 100wpm figure in a few places, and also says that on earlier equipment "attempts were made to increase the speed to 100 words; however, high maintenance costs severely limited this use." > [1] I recall being flabberghasted upon first reading this (it would be > about 1961--3) to hear about the "stunt box" --- this could perform > certain actions (such as closing contacts or performing a FORM feed) upon > recognizing *sequences* of characters: the forerunner of ESCape sequences > therefore. All my experience with teleprinters to that date were > strictly one-byte one-action. Apparently there was an optional add-on called the "sequential selector" that could do the same thing on earlier models. How *were* multicharacter sequences handled with the stunt box? Did it use sequences of printing characters (and did those print as they were received?) or were all the sequences composed of the few control characters? eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:06:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.213.74.25 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 996242793 141.213.74.25 (Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:06:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:06:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85920 In article , John Varela wrote: > > FP MO793 CV24 T250 2/0033 ALB 80 HCK > >Before any lurking pilots get too excited, let me say this was a simulation >test a long time ago (note that's a Mohawk Airlines flight plan); in those >days Mode A was only 6 bits so we used Mode 2 to simulate 12-bit Mode 3/A. For the benefit of all the non-pilots (of irrelevant lurking status), could you translate this? -- Sergej Roytman ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:39:47 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9js203$kkk$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 996248387 21140 134.117.136.30 (27 Jul 2001 15:39:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:39:47 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!209.130.222.214.MISMATCH!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85904 John Varela (javnews@earthlink.net) writes: > ALB = departure point = Albany, NY > 80 = altitude in hundreds of feet = 8,000 feet > HCK = destination = ??? I forget what HCK is (if I ever knew) > > This was a very short flight plan route, just direct from one airport to > another. Most flight plan routes are longer. Hancock - Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New York, Wisconsin ? ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 27 Jul 2001 09:14:52 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9js41s0s0u@drn.newsguy.com> References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-888.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85888 In article , javnews@earthlink.net says... >> John Varela wrote: >> > >> > FP MO793 CV24 T250 2/0033 ALB 80 HCK >ALB = departure point = Albany, NY >80 = altitude in hundreds of feet = 8,000 feet >HCK = destination = ??? I forget what HCK is (if I ever knew) I want to say Hackensack, but modern FAA and IATA listings don't list either Hackensack nor HCK. Tim. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:40:42 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <996259242snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <9jqncu$4p4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 996272594 mail2news:10310 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 59 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86001 In article <9jqncu$4p4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> enf@pobox.com "Eric Fischer" writes: > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > > But by that time in Europe, firms such as Siemens in FRG and Creed in the > > UK had introduced teleprinters with higher Baud rates, such as the Creed > > 75 which managed 75Bd, i.e. 10 chars/sec or 100wpm. I wish I could > > remember whereabouts to lay my hands on the copy of the BSTJ that I > > mentioned before: it has a detailed description[1] of the Model 28[2] and > > might well indicate that it too could run at such higher speeds. > > There was a BSTJ article? If you find the citation, I'd like to > know, because I've only seen the 1938 article about the Model 19. I'm pretty sure it was the BSTJ, but could have been some other Bell publication. I bought it, at great expense, as a back-number in the early to mid 1960s, because it had some other article in there about teleprinters, in which I was very interested in those days (being one of the early members of BARTG). I know that I've still got the publication, in a large yellow envelope, with the original address label and stamps, *somewhere*; it wasn't in any of the likely spots that I've thought of. We'll probably just have to hope that it comes to light some time; I'll be sure to post a citation when I do find it. > There is an article about the Model 28 in the March, 1954 issue > of Communications and Electronics that gives some amount of detail. What's C&E? Was that published by Bell? (Hmm, just thinking for a moment, it might have been a copy of Bell Labs Record, rather than BSTJ.) > How *were* multicharacter sequences handled with the stunt box? > Did it use sequences of printing characters (and did those print > as they were received?) or were all the sequences composed of > the few control characters? From memory, they did use printing characters; but the sequence started with some particular sequence on non-printing characters, which caused printing to be suppressed. (Whilst looking for the aforementioned journal, in one of those "likely places", I found some notes I made about 25 years ago on the character set of the special Creed 75 that was made to handle RSRE Algol. The feature that really intrigued me was that the carriage return character appoeared only in the figures shift; in letter shift, that pattern produced the letter 'u'. So in letters shift one had: 26 lower-case letters, non-escaping underscore, LS, FS, LF & SP, whilst in figures you got the ten digits, non-escaping vertical bar, LS, FS, LF, SP, CR, plus all the punctuation for Algol (including a subscript 10). [fx: damn, damn, I can't remember all of those 16 characters so as to be able to enumerate them here: now I'll have to go fetch that printout again; still, at least I *do* know where that one is!]) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:39:02 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9jt8k6$fau$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9jqncu$4p4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <996259242snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYBFvqJfVehVu6cIZcaEoSG+kFJ6CAZzYZK1OrxLMb1ctQuXEZ/sQmj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:39:02 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85972 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > There was a BSTJ article? If you find the citation, I'd like to > > know, because I've only seen the 1938 article about the Model 19. > > I'm pretty sure it was the BSTJ, but could have been some other Bell > publication. There's a library nearby with the BSTJ and Bell Labs Record, but unfortunately they're not currently open on weekends so I can't go and try to find the article. Maybe in a few months... > > There is an article about the Model 28 in the March, 1954 issue > > of Communications and Electronics that gives some amount of detail. > > What's C&E? Was that published by Bell? It was published by the American Institute of Electrical Engineers. I think once they merged with the Institute of Radio Engineers to form the IEEE it became one of the IEEE Transactions on... series. Thanks for the details on how the stunt box sequences worked! eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:36:01 -0400 References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: max2h-232.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 996374159 max2h-232.his.com (28 Jul 2001 22:35:59 -0400) Lines: 15 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!vienna7.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86017 In article , javnews@earthlink.net (John Varela) wrote: > HCK = destination = ??? I forget what HCK is (if I ever knew) Hicksville, NY, was my guess. Someone must have a current AIC decode manual. It's possible that HCK is an intersection, or was an airport at Hitchcock or Hancock or Hicksville that is no longer commissioned. The FAA site offers no joy, either. Edward ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 29 Jul 2001 02:57:25 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <9jvu2l$m0h$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 996375445 22545 134.117.136.30 (29 Jul 2001 02:57:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 02:57:25 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86034 Edward Rice (ehrice@his.com) writes: > In article > , > javnews@earthlink.net (John Varela) wrote: > > > HCK = destination = ??? I forget what HCK is (if I ever knew) > > Hicksville, NY, was my guess. Isn't that the place that lynched the mayor ( Mr. Hick ) when he refused to change the name of that village? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 23:58:57 -0400 References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> <9js203$kkk$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: max2h-232.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 996379135 max2h-232.his.com (28 Jul 2001 23:58:55 -0400) Lines: 26 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!vienna7.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86015 In article <9js203$kkk$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: > John Varela (javnews@earthlink.net) writes: > > > ALB = departure point = Albany, NY > > 80 = altitude in hundreds of feet = 8,000 feet > > HCK = destination = ??? I forget what HCK is (if I ever knew) > > > > This was a very short flight plan route, just direct from one airport to > > another. Most flight plan routes are longer. > > Hancock - Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, > New York, Wisconsin ? My best hit so far is that there's an NDB near the Harryy S Truman Dam & Reservoir Seaplane Base near Warsaw, MO, named Hawks and abbreviated HCK. http://airnav.com/airport/75U Seems an unlikely one, though. Edward ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 29 Jul 2001 04:26:17 GMT Lines: 15 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <9k0399$3l9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> <9js203$kkk$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYL5KAz9+LxOSonTK3w3NXmqZSHYfAQT3hdiSyKUAohx+XdAcygoB46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 04:26:17 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.3-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86011 Edward Rice wrote: : My best hit so far is that there's an NDB near the Harryy S Truman Dam & : Reservoir Seaplane Base near Warsaw, MO, named Hawks and abbreviated HCK. : http://airnav.com/airport/75U : Seems an unlikely one, though. It's entirely possible that whoever made up the dataset stuck their initals or soemthing in it. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:23:56 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9k3n5c$so8$1@top.mitre.org> References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 996499436 29448 128.29.251.13 (30 Jul 2001 13:23:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:23:56 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86088 ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: >javnews@earthlink.net (John Varela) wrote: > > HCK = destination = ??? I forget what HCK is (if I ever knew) >Hicksville, NY, was my guess. >Someone must have a current AIC decode manual. It's possible that HCK is >an intersection, or was an airport at Hitchcock or Hancock or Hicksville >that is no longer commissioned. The FAA site offers no joy, either. It can't be an intersection; all intersections carry five-letter names that are more-or-less pronouncable. (Although I've not quite figured out how pilots not familiar with US companies were expected to pronounce the intersection KMART, which was at one time a name used in the Houston (IIRC) approach structure.) HCK is an NDB operated by the US Army; it identifies the FAF for the ILS into Whiteman AFB, roughly 65 nm ESE of Kansas City. No, don't ask me why a navaid listed as owned by the US Army is servicing an Air Force base. It's possible that the identifier has been reused; I don't know the policy on that although I suspect that if it is permitted there's got to be a L-O-N-G settling period after it's decommissioned at one location before it can be used elsewhere. Joe Morris ###### From: dml_68@yahoo.com (dml) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 2 Aug 2001 13:36:06 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 7 Message-ID: <2142b891.0108021236.60c8fa39@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.106.180.251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 996784566 26514 127.0.0.1 (2 Aug 2001 20:36:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 2001 20:36:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86469 Any chance to get this film converted over to AVI or MPEG format and maybe posted for public viewing? I am so facinated by these eary systems from the late 50's & early 60's. I have read Steven Leavy's "hackers Heros of the computer revolution" more times than may be healthy. Thanks very much ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 16:52:54 -0400 Organization: Multicians Lines: 50 Message-ID: <3B6B0F26.A1CEC537@multicians.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.3b.64.0c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 3 Aug 2001 20:51:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86536 "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote: > There is a discussion of Project Mac, a short interview with Fano, > closeup shots of whatever kind of teletype was used then--NOT an ASR-33, > these had jumping rectangular matrices. You get to re-experience how > agonizingly slow those beasts were, hard to believe anyone ever got any > computing done with them. > > There is a wonderful sequence where we follow Professor Douglas > Ross--who I believe was an early pioneer of interactive computing, had > something to do with adding a keyboard to Whirlwind and I think had > something to do with early numerical-control machining--into his house, > and the narrator explains that he is one of about two dozen MIT faculty > that are actually able to use a computer _from his home_. > > You see Professor Ercolino Ferretti loading cards into a 7094 (I'd > forgotten those plastic weights that were used to keep the last cards > flat) and synthesizing music. The music plays in the background and you > get the impression he is listening to it in realtime, which is surely > not the case... In 1965, most of the TTYs at Project MAC were Model 35s. I cannot visualize the print mechanism.. 33 had a cylinder, 37 had a big jumping matrix, and a ribbon that swung up to cover the output while it was printing, then dropped. Mod 37 was upper and lower case.. but I don't think we had any model 37s at MAC in 1965, so it was probably a mod 35. See www.multicians.org/terminals.html. Doug Ross was indeed a computing pioneer. One of his many achievements was the creation of APT, the numerically controlled machine tool programming language. He was at MIT RLE (Research Laborator for Electronics) in 1965, working on a compiler language called AED-0 (Algol Extended for Design). It had the basic idea of a structured object: he called it a "plex." List processing, abstract data types, object orientation were all mixed in the thinking then. I used AED for some projects in 65 and 66, fine language, great group. Professors never loaded cards into the 7094. Operators pre-stored cards onto input tapes using the 1401. The slow online card reader on our 7094s was only used for bootloading the system. So that shot may have been staged. I saw Prof. Fano and Prof. Ross at the Project MAC 35th reunion in 1999. This event included a reception at the Boston Museum of Science, where Bill Gates announced a $16 million gift to MIT, and was followed by lectures on campus. The reunion was held 11 years after the 25th reunion, supposedly because Gates was too busy to come in 1998. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: "How To Be First"/PDP-1/7094/Proj. MAC/Fano/Tomlinson/MIT Date: 7 Aug 2001 21:20:13 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <348A9BA4D15DB2AC.EFD4A6AA045FEDB3.3423C7BE5784DA63@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <995955893snz@dsl.co.uk> <9k3n5c$so8$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Aug 7 16:20:13 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !aAnT1k-Xn5N%JL (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!dca6-feed1.news.digex.net!ord2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cabal11.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:86636 On 30 Jul 2001 13:23:56 GMT, Joe Morris wrote: >It can't be an intersection; all intersections carry five-letter names >that are more-or-less pronouncable. This is a fairly recent innovation, IIRC...something like the mid-70s or so. Gordon Baxter used to talk about the Fry intersection, east of Houston, which is mow known as FRYED. > (Although I've not quite figured >out how pilots not familiar with US companies were expected to pronounce >the intersection KMART, which was at one time a name used in the >Houston (IIRC) approach structure.) They renamed it? Aww. KMART is in the DFW approach structure; it's named that because it's directly over a large K-Mart sign that's used as a landmark.