From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83431 I was going to let this all slide, but then it occurred to me that I'll only be new faculty and able to get things once . . . We've been through this a cou[ple of times in the past, but I think those suppliers have vanished . . . Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in earshot to know, too . . . I want the control key where God meant it to be, function keys in easy reach without leaving the home keys (either to the left or little ones up top and close like on this thinkpad, full "throw" on the keys, and that new-fankgled "alt" key on either side of the spacebar. hmm, maybe we should take up a collection and form "curmudgeon-keyboards.com" . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:38:35 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: host94.bjss.co.uk X-Trace: newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net 992450261 20934 194.152.80.94 (13 Jun 2001 16:37:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 16:37:41 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83404 "Prof. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote in message news:9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu... > I was going to let this all slide, but then it occurred to me that I'll > only be new faculty and able to get things once . . . > > We've been through this a cou[ple of times in the past, but I think > those suppliers have vanished . . . > > Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys > silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find > a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've > hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in > earshot to know, too . . . I'm just glad that no-one still makes keyboards in the style of the 8-bit micros. Learning to type on one of those set me back around 5 years. The keyboard introduced by the Sinclair QL was particularly dreadful. Derived from the earlier membrane keyboards but with plastic keytops with little travel, and a nasty habit of falling out when the machine is turned over. ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:34:10 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3B27A412.B54C6A12@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@dhcp-171-68-135-147.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83485 I have found a source for real keyboards Creative Vision Technologies http://www.cvtinc.com They have a mediocre web site and excellent phone sales support folk. JKA -- Extractio ad absurdum: Taking a sentence out of context and then attacking it for not making sense without the context. L Elmore ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:35:12 +0100 Message-ID: <992453718.29265.0.nnrp-07.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992453718 nnrp-07:29265 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2481.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2481.0000 Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83477 "Prof. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote in message news:9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu... > I was going to let this all slide, but then it occurred to me that I'll > only be new faculty and able to get things once . . . > > We've been through this a cou[ple of times in the past, but I think > those suppliers have vanished . . . > > Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys > silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find > a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've > hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in > earshot to know, too . . . Easy http://www.pckeyboard.com (bought one last month, they screwed up the inital shipment but corrected it without any problems (always a good sign :) in my book)). They do proper IBM Clicky keyboards (Unicomp floated out of Lexmark floated out of IBM). I'm not sure if they have one with Ctrl key where god and wordstar intended. ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 19:01:47 +0100 Organization: The Tardis Project Lines: 38 Sender: tfb@tardis Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 992455306 30545 193.62.81.1 (13 Jun 2001 18:01:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83423 hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: > > Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys > silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find > a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've > hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in > earshot to know, too . . . > > I want the control key where God meant it to be, function keys in easy > reach without leaving the home keys (either to the left or little ones > up top and close like on this thinkpad, full "throw" on the keys, and > that new-fankgled "alt" key on either side of the spacebar. > > hmm, maybe we should take up a collection and form > "curmudgeon-keyboards.com" . . . I think what you do is to find an old keyboard (I always liked old Sun keyboards, type 2 or 3, the rot set in with type 4), find out what their interface is and cons up a little box to convert it to something modern machines can understand. The PC keyboard interface must be standard and documented somewhere, and don't some people now make machines with USB keyboards, which might be standard. The old keyboard probably isn't standard, but a friend of mine took apart some old lisp machine keyboards I had and said that the interface was simple enough that you could work it out by looking at the electronics in there, so it might be plausible to just understand it. I would pay a significant amount of money (a few hundred pounds) for such a thing that made an old Sun keyboard work with a new Sun, so long as it did it properly (would have to bundle a keyboard as I threw all the old ones I had away as it hurt to look at them). --tim ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 18:09:06 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9g8a82$4p6$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83440 In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: >I would pay a significant amount of money (a few hundred pounds) for >such a thing that made an old Sun keyboard work with a new Sun, so >long as it did it properly (would have to bundle a keyboard as I threw >all the old ones I had away as it hurt to look at them). Erm, are you aware that the only difference in interface between type 2/3/4/5 keyboards (ignoring USB ones) is the type of connector they use? It should be a matter of a plug, a socket and some wire to make an adaptor. -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:39:10 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 31 Message-ID: <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p532.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992459436 26176 194.134.201.96 (13 Jun 2001 19:10:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:10:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83551 On 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: PH> Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys Dunno, but if you find out let me know. I'm not quite so enamoured of stiff keys and long travel (although I recall being able to hit a good speed on an ASR33). I would settle for a good Hall effect keyboard with a *curved* rake! PH> I want the control key where God meant it to be, I *always* remap the CRAPS lock key to be control (unless it is in the right place originally) :) PH> function keys in easy Definitely, and that bizarre pad in the middle can just *go*. PH> that new-fankgled "alt" key on either side of the spacebar. Both sides is fine by me (if a little crowded along the bottom row). I have yet to find out what the keys with the strange little flags are for on very new fangled keyboards, the one with the arrow and text (I think) icon is quite handy when mapped as a middle mouse button equivalent. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 18:49:53 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9g8ckh$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83516 In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: >I think what you do is to find an old keyboard (I always liked old Sun >keyboards, type 2 or 3, the rot set in with type 4), find out what >their interface is and cons up a little box to convert it to something >modern machines can understand. ok, now just *try* to fit *that* into university purchasing rules . . . :) hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 19:00:23 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83509 In article <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net>, Paul Grayson wrote: >The keyboard introduced by the Sinclair QL was particularly >dreadful. Derived from the earlier membrane keyboards but with >plastic keytops with little travel, and a nasty habit of falling out >when the machine is turned over. The original TI 99/4 keyboard . . . you couldn't type on it even *with* the keys--there was no ; key, so a touch typist's hand would shift over one key and produce gibberish . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 20:33:48 +0100 Organization: The Tardis Project Lines: 14 Sender: tfb@tardis Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g8a82$4p6$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 992460826 831 193.62.81.1 (13 Jun 2001 19:33:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83505 bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) writes: > Erm, are you aware that the only difference in interface between type > 2/3/4/5 keyboards (ignoring USB ones) is the type of connector they use? > It should be a matter of a plug, a socket and some wire to make an adaptor. > Is this true? The old keyboards had a separate mouse connector on the machine didn't they? Was that just a copy of the keyboard connector? If it is just a connector conspiracy I'll be very happy (mind you. we've just bought a new machine which seems to have USB). --tim ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:47:46 -0500 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYgW9IqGblwQwGT67AeFK7nKIYTkTNR8xnt3QMXVHa1SFmxZx1HteC0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 19:50:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83585 On 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT, hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys >silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find >a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've >hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in >earshot to know, too . . . Well, I still have a drawer full of old IBM clackers, condition unknown. They have pre PS2 style connectors. But the shipping on those door stops ... Just tried to take a look, but the drawer is buried behind a pile of old software, so I don't know where the ctrl key is. -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:11:08 -0800 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3B27D6EC.7CF60F80@computer.org> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27A412.B54C6A12@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (206.61.138.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 992463017 8018041 206.61.138.2 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83502 J Ahlstrom wrote: > > I have found a source for real keyboards > Creative Vision Technologies > http://www.cvtinc.com > > They have a mediocre web site and excellent > phone sales support folk. > > JKA > -- > Extractio ad absurdum: > Taking a sentence out of context and then > attacking it for not making sense without > the context. > > L Elmore The old Northgate keyboard. If you disassemble one of the Creative Vision keyboards, the PC boards still have the Northgate copyright notice on them. I'm typing on one right now. Unfortunately, they are not carrying the Northgate Ultra, only the Northgate Ultra T. Sam ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 21:26:43 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9g8lqj$4km$1@news.panix.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992467603 4758 166.84.0.228 (13 Jun 2001 21:26:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 21:26:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83507 In article , Arargh! wrote: >Well, I still have a drawer full of old IBM clackers, condition >unknown. They have pre PS2 style connectors. But the shipping on >those door stops ... With the metal case and keep on working no matter how hard you pound on them? I had one of those at my PPOE. Best and longest lasting keyboard I ever had. They were coveted where I worked (Florida and Colorado) as the HP keyboards keep crapping out. When I was transferred from Florida to Colorado I took that keyboard with me. I took it home over Y2K weekend in case I needed a shield while defending my family ;^) I sometimes wish I took it with me or offerred to buy it when I was laid off 8^/ -- COBOL programs are an exercise in Artificial Inelegance. ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:33:30 GMT Message-ID: <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992468010 nnrp-01:14106 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.0-test7 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83566 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT >hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >PH> Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys > Dunno, but if you find out let me know. I'm not quite so enamoured of >stiff keys and long travel (although I recall being able to hit a good speed on >an ASR33). I would settle for a good Hall effect keyboard with a *curved* rake! Hmm, I wonder how the power used by a modern laptop per keystroke, and the power exerted on an ASR33 compare... -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "I meant, have you ploughed the ocean waves at all?" Colon gave him a cunning look. 'Ah, you can't catch me with that one, sir' he said 'Everyone knows horses sink' -- Terry Pratchett - Jingo ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 13 Jun 2001 17:58:57 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9g8nn1$3re$1@panix2.panix.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992469538 5768 166.84.0.227 (13 Jun 2001 21:58:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 21:58:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83513 >PH> Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys > Dunno, but if you find out let me know. I'm not quite so enamoured of >stiff keys and long travel (although I recall being able to hit a good speed on >an ASR33). I would settle for a good Hall effect keyboard with a *curved* rake! I have some hall effect keyboards but the nice red, white & blue one - is EBCDIC - keypunch format (numeric shift for for 0-9) - no click or feedback I wish the real loud snappy keys from IBM's 3270-ish terminals were usable on other things. I pulled one apart. It was a marvel of materials and engineering. Pushing the key caused thin leaf springs to snap a square UP under the key (for what I think was capacative sensing). You really felt that with your fingertips! But it took very little pressure to trigger the spring action! And they never broke or fatigued! A neighbor threw them out for me before I could donate them to David Letterman to throw off the roof of a building, or steam-roller. -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### Message-ID: <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> From: freddy1X Reply-To: freddy1X Organization: IndyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-IndyNet (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:13:45 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.183.70.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp2.onemain.com 992474072 209.183.70.134 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:14:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:14:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp2.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83592 Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > > Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys > silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find > a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've > hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in > earshot to know, too . . . > > hmm, maybe we should take up a collection and form > "curmudgeon-keyboards.com" . . . > > hawk > You must realise that a REAL MAN's keyboard must be so heavily built as to require ( at least one ) REAL MAN to move it about. How would you be interested in this Mowhawk Data Systems "Selectric" style mechanism that I have here? It includes solenoids & contacts to a connector on the back, and I have a matching cable. -- not authorised for sale on a stand alone basis /\>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\/ /\ I may be demented \/ /\ but I'm not crazy! \/ /\<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\/ * SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address * || attatch FLAME here || \/ \/ X ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:44:26 -0500 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g8lqj$4km$1@news.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ7msTQ1xfYrEDGpoZTxUVqx720Rjusi4uQt7Cxf/hJs1nEJGjmiTl3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2001 02:47:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83582 On 13 Jun 2001 21:26:43 GMT, never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: > >In article , >Arargh! wrote: >>Well, I still have a drawer full of old IBM clackers, condition >>unknown. They have pre PS2 style connectors. But the shipping on >>those door stops ... > >With the metal case and keep on working no matter how hard you pound on >them? I had one of those at my PPOE. Best and longest lasting keyboard I >ever had. They were coveted where I worked (Florida and Colorado) as the >HP keyboards keep crapping out. When I was transferred from Florida to >Colorado I took that keyboard with me. I took it home over Y2K weekend >in case I needed a shield while defending my family ;^) Sounds about right, big and heavy and noisy. > >I sometimes wish I took it with me or offerred to buy it when I was laid >off 8^/ -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 14 Jun 2001 11:51:25 +0100 Organization: The Tardis Project Lines: 21 Sender: tfb@tardis Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g8ckh$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 992515884 21010 193.62.81.1 (14 Jun 2001 10:51:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83503 hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: > In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: > > >I think what you do is to find an old keyboard (I always liked old Sun > >keyboards, type 2 or 3, the rot set in with type 4), find out what > >their interface is and cons up a little box to convert it to something > >modern machines can understand. > > ok, now just *try* to fit *that* into university purchasing rules . . . Start a research project on keyboard ergonomics, get millions of dollars of funding, make *lots* of little boxes. I'll be happy to be a test subject (so long as I only have to test good keyboards). I mean, surely, Universities are all about making obscure little breadboarded boxes in the basement somewhere? --tim ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 14 Jun 2001 12:39:28 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9gaba0$52i$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g8a82$4p6$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83540 In article , Tim Bradshaw wrote: >bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) writes: > >> Erm, are you aware that the only difference in interface between type >> 2/3/4/5 keyboards (ignoring USB ones) is the type of connector they use? >> It should be a matter of a plug, a socket and some wire to make an adaptor. > >Is this true? The old keyboards had a separate mouse connector on the >machine didn't they? Was that just a copy of the keyboard connector? The keyboard and mouse interfaces are actually electrically separate, and they just happen to be presented in the same connector on late Sun 2s and everything after. This should mean that you can take a type 2 keyboard, and a random Sun mouse, and kludge up an adaptor to make them work on an Ultra. The Sun Hardware Reference gives details of the pinouts for type 3 and type 4 keyboards, but not type 2. >If it is just a connector conspiracy I'll be very happy (mind >you. we've just bought a new machine which seems to have USB). Yeah, it looks like the old keyboard interface is finally being killed off. Pity. -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:06:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 992535142 129.85.24.56 (Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:12:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:12:22 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83598 On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:13:45 -0400, freddy1X wrote: >Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > >> Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys >> silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find >> a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've >> hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in >> earshot to know, too . . . > >> hmm, maybe we should take up a collection and form >> "curmudgeon-keyboards.com" . . . >> >> hawk > >You must realise that a REAL MAN's keyboard must be so heavily built as >to require ( at least one ) REAL MAN to move it about. Speaking of REAL MAN's keyboards ;-) I remember one I had a misfortune to use in xUSSR. Its case was a slab of aluminum with milled cavity for electronics. The top plate (that held keys) was a 3 mm (1/8") thick still plate. The thing weighted several kg! I remember it was a real strain to lift it. To add insult to injury, it was used with the weirdest video terminal I ever saw: it was a [kinda] clone of VT50, but it had a vector character generator, which was, of course, not field-adjustable. So the characters looked weird to begin with, and deteriorated into something unrecognizable over time. -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 14 Jun 2001 21:08:56 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6u3d92zxo7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 992545738 380 10.0.3.2 (14 Jun 2001 19:08:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2001 19:08:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83601 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT > hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > > PH> that new-fankgled "alt" key on either side of the spacebar. > > Both sides is fine by me (if a little crowded along the bottom row). I have > yet to find out what the keys with the strange little flags are for on very new > fangled keyboards, I thought that was obvoious: they have got flags on them, because they are for manipulating flags. Which flags are manipulated should be documented in your helpfull processor manual or terminal manual. Of course you also may ask the field circus next time it is here. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Fri, 15 Jun 01 10:03:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9gcvk4$2hg$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY0t+Fqf0u4gopOrAeUOTimA/pzxBu8X1HhTaPYpw4ZOC4Jx/SGc33r X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 12:38:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-210 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83641 In article <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:33:30 GMT >Ian Stirling wrote: > >IS> Hmm, I wonder how the power used by a modern laptop per keystroke, and >IS> the power exerted on an ASR33 compare... > > I know that and ASR33 can withstand a great deal more power being >exerted upon it than a modern laptop. The treatment many of them got would >*shatter* a laptop (very few of which can take having someone sit on the >display device for instance). > As long as you didn't type over 35 words/minute. I had to mentally count between strokes to slow my typing rate down so the field service guy wouldn't kill me or, worse yet, ban me from the terminal room. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:53:36 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 15 Message-ID: <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0786.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992556774 42098 194.134.202.23 (14 Jun 2001 22:12:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:12:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83680 On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:33:30 GMT Ian Stirling wrote: IS> Hmm, I wonder how the power used by a modern laptop per keystroke, and IS> the power exerted on an ASR33 compare... I know that and ASR33 can withstand a great deal more power being exerted upon it than a modern laptop. The treatment many of them got would *shatter* a laptop (very few of which can take having someone sit on the display device for instance). -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:56:54 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 28 Message-ID: <20010614225654.49fed0cf.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <9g8nn1$3re$1@panix2.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0786.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992556774 42098 194.134.202.23 (14 Jun 2001 22:12:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:12:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83704 On 13 Jun 2001 17:58:57 -0400 jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) wrote: JJ> I have some hall effect keyboards but the nice red, white & blue one Nice. JJ> - is EBCDIC Livable (nostalgic even). JJ> - keypunch format (numeric shift for for 0-9) Hmm getting icky JJ> - no click or feedback Nah. JJ> Pushing the key caused thin leaf springs to snap a square UP JJ> under the key (for what I think was capacative sensing). Sounds like a massively over engineered dome switch - nice! -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:03:20 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 18 Message-ID: <20010614230320.0c08b9de.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0786.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992556775 42098 194.134.202.23 (14 Jun 2001 22:12:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:12:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83700 On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:06:48 -0400 Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote: A AP> Speaking of REAL MAN's keyboards ;-) I remember one I had a misfortune to use in AP> xUSSR. Its case was a slab of aluminum with milled cavity for electronics. The AP> top plate (that held keys) was a 3 mm (1/8") thick still plate. The thing Here's me I thought the Torch keyboard was too damn heavy. Steel case, long life version of the same switches in the Beebon and too many keys because somebody thought that hyphen, minus, and dash should have separate keys (I think that's what they were supposed to be but they all gave the same code by the time it was built and the somebody was elsewhere). -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:47:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: raewyn.paradise.net.nz 992566043 39281 203.96.144.16 (15 Jun 2001 00:47:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:47:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news01.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83712 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > I know that and ASR33 can withstand a great deal more power being >exerted upon it than a modern laptop. The treatment many of them got would >*shatter* a laptop (very few of which can take having someone sit on the >display device for instance). Well, I think I'd very much prefer that no-one sat on the display device on *my* ASR33. That top cover is just plastic, and not particularly good plastic at that. And the frame may look tough, but the tolerances are fairly tight, and it ain't gonna stand too much bending. And I carried my '33 around as much as I carry my laptop, I don't think it would last as long... (Actually, I don't think *I* would last as long.) -- don ###### From: Chris Baird Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Organization: World Wide Weasels Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: uunewc283040.uudial.com.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 992628606 203.102.130.100 (Sat, 16 Jun 2001 04:10:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 04:10:06 EST Distribution: world Date: 15 Jun 2001 13:48:38 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!uunet!sac.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news01.one.net.au!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83721 Alexandre Pechtchanski, > Speaking of REAL MAN's keyboards ;-) I remember one I had a > misfortune to use in xUSSR. Its case was a slab of aluminum with > milled cavity for electronics. The top plate (that held keys) was a > 3 mm (1/8") thick still plate. The thing weighted several kg! I > remember it was a real strain to lift it. To add insult to injury, > it was used with the weirdest video terminal I ever saw: it was a > [kinda] clone of VT50, but it had a vector character generator, > which was, of course, not field-adjustable. Weird, we had something like those during the 1980s for the first-year math/computing lab at maths.nu.oz.au, around 16 of them connected to a Perkin-Elmer system doing Unix V7; built locally, though. -- Chris,, ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Reply-To: bv@wjv.com Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:48:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.210.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 992582648 157.238.210.128 (Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:24:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:24:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!nosuchsite!bill Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83722 In article <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >In article <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net>, >Paul Grayson wrote: > >>The keyboard introduced by the Sinclair QL was particularly >>dreadful. Derived from the earlier membrane keyboards but with >>plastic keytops with little travel, and a nasty habit of falling out >>when the machine is turned over. >The original TI 99/4 keyboard . . . you couldn't type on it even *with* >the keys--there was no ; key, so a touch typist's hand would shift >over one key and produce gibberish . . . Ranks right up there with the 'chiclet' keyboard of the IBM PC Jr. Anyone remember the 1/2 sphere one-handed chord keyboard that was featured on the front of Byte about 1979 or so. Neat idea. -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Reply-To: bv@wjv.com Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Lines: 54 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:51:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.210.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 992582650 157.238.210.128 (Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:24:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:24:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!nosuchsite!bill Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83725 In article , John Todd wrote: > Those who regularly check their local thrift store >or Sally Ann find the old 1986 vintage IBM keyboards for a >dollar or two. You need two or three to get a full set of keycaps, >but they clean up well, last forever (they should, at over $250 >originally) and are satisfyingly noisy! I like the short keyboard - not number pad. I bought 4 of those brand new for $6 each last year. I never liked the noise by I surely like the touch and the speed. > > >On 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins > wrote: >>I was going to let this all slide, but then it occurred to me that I'll >>only be new faculty and able to get things once . . . >> >>We've been through this a cou[ple of times in the past, but I think >>those suppliers have vanished . . . >> >>Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys >>silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find >>a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've >>hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in >>earshot to know, too . . . >> >>I want the control key where God meant it to be, function keys in easy >>reach without leaving the home keys (either to the left or little ones >>up top and close like on this thinkpad, full "throw" on the keys, and >>that new-fankgled "alt" key on either side of the spacebar. >> >>hmm, maybe we should take up a collection and form >>"curmudgeon-keyboards.com" . . . >> >>hawk >> >>-- >>Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign >>dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail >>These opinions will not be those of X and postings >>Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ > > >-- >_____________________ > >The lap of Linuxury >| References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 992612742 1742 128.29.251.13 (15 Jun 2001 13:45:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 13:45:42 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83611 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >Well, I think I'd very much prefer that no-one sat on the display device >on *my* ASR33. That top cover is just plastic, and not particularly >good plastic at that. And the frame may look tough, but the tolerances >are fairly tight, and it ain't gonna stand too much bending. Don't forget that the TTY33 was the el cheapo cousin to the TTY35. If you wanted a battleship-solid design you wanted the 35; whether you could afford to buy it was another question. >And I carried my '33 around as much as I carry my laptop, I don't think >it would last as long... (Actually, I don't think *I* would last as long.) Back around 1970 or so I recall having a sales rep come around to our shop to sing the praises of somebody's remote time sharing service. (It might even have been DEC pushing its TS capability -- I can't recall.) The rep brought two shipping cases: - one case contained an ASR33 (no stand; it sat on a table). - the other case (of the same size) contained the acoustic modem. The main thing I recall from this demo was that the reps were pushing the idea that new users would have *no* problems using TECO as their editor. Joe ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 15 Jun 2001 13:49:19 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 992612959 1869 128.29.251.13 (15 Jun 2001 13:49:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 13:49:19 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83614 bill@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) writes: >Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >>The original TI 99/4 keyboard . . . you couldn't type on it even *with* >>the keys--there was no ; key, so a touch typist's hand would shift >>over one key and produce gibberish . . . >Ranks right up there with the 'chiclet' keyboard of the >IBM PC Jr. Or the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys instead of F and J. While I never had any problems switching between type-paired and bit-paired keyboards, I can almost never touch-type for any length of time on a Mac keyboard because my hands automatically move to put the raised dot where my index fingers hit the keys. Joe Morris ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:31:14 -0800 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3B2A6282.9F6FDC81@computer.org> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27A412.B54C6A12@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (206.61.138.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 992629832 9164972 206.61.138.2 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83616 J Ahlstrom wrote: > > I have found a source for real keyboards > Creative Vision Technologies > http://www.cvtinc.com > > They have a mediocre web site and excellent > phone sales support folk. > > JKA > -- > Extractio ad absurdum: > Taking a sentence out of context and then > attacking it for not making sense without > the context. > > L Elmore I'm sorry, but I get the idea that my last response to this message was a bit unclear, so I will try again. The Creative Vision Technologies keyboard >is< the old Northgate keyboard. Creative Visions got all the rights, moulds, designs, masks, etc. from what was left of Northgate. If you take apart a Creative Vision keyboard (which I am typing on right now), the PC boards inside still have the Northgate copyright notice on them. Unfortunately, all that Creative Vision is selling is the Northgate OmniKey Ultra-T keyboard, and I really like the Northgate OmniKey Ultra... Sam ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:42:13 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 19 Message-ID: <20010615204213.0517de87.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1163.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992641673 44039 194.134.203.144 (15 Jun 2001 21:47:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:47:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83820 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:48:13 GMT bill@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) wrote: BV> Anyone remember the 1/2 sphere one-handed chord keyboard that was BV> featured on the front of Byte about 1979 or so. Neat idea. The microwriter, yep I remember the big banner headline on that issue. 'QWERTY is Dead!' A bit premature that one. The microwriter was nice though and could be really nice now with a flat face and high rez LCD as a one hand PDA. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:47:37 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1163.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992641698 44039 194.134.203.144 (15 Jun 2001 21:48:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:48:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!surfnet.nl!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83829 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:47:23 +0000 (UTC) don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: DS> Well, I think I'd very much prefer that no-one sat on the display device DS> on *my* ASR33. That top cover is just plastic, and not particularly DS> good plastic at that. And the frame may look tough, but the tolerances DS> are fairly tight, and it ain't gonna stand too much bending. You make good points, OTOH I *saw* one abused like this daily and used it a lot too. OK those sitting on it were fifteen year old school kids, not that that would help the laptop much :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 15 Jun 2001 18:49:53 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9gdlch$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83781 In article , Bill Vermillion wrote: >In article <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, >Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >>The original TI 99/4 keyboard . . . you couldn't type on it even *with* >>the keys--there was no ; key, so a touch typist's hand would shift >>over one key and produce gibberish . . . >Ranks right up there with the 'chiclet' keyboard of the >IBM PC Jr. Up there? well past it--the pc-jr keyboard was pretty much the 99/4 keyboard with the ; key put back . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 15 Jun 2001 18:53:02 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9gdlie$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <6u3d92zxo7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83782 In article <6u3d92zxo7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >> On 13 Jun 2001 16:18:54 GMT >> hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >> PH> that new-fankgled "alt" key on either side of the spacebar. >> Both sides is fine by me (if a little crowded along the bottom >>row). I have yet to find out what the keys with the strange little >>flags are for on very new fangled keyboards, >I thought that was obvoious: they have got flags on them, because >they are for manipulating flags. >Which flags are manipulated should be documented in your helpfull >processor manual or terminal manual. Of course you also may ask >the field circus next time it is here. Ahh, I was wondering how the flag went up and down heach day here with no ROTC detail . . . :) hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:53:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 992638391 209.98.98.8 (Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:53:11 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:53:11 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83795 jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: >bill@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) writes: >>Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >>>The original TI 99/4 keyboard . . . you couldn't type on it even *with* >>>the keys--there was no ; key, so a touch typist's hand would shift >>>over one key and produce gibberish . . . >>Ranks right up there with the 'chiclet' keyboard of the >>IBM PC Jr. >Or the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys >instead of F and J. While I never had any problems switching between >type-paired and bit-paired keyboards, I can almost never touch-type >for any length of time on a Mac keyboard because my hands automatically >move to put the raised dot where my index fingers hit the keys. In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it "wrong". Unfortunately, as you note, anyone used to them on F & J tend to have problems when they're moved to D & K. -- ************************************************************************** * Michael T Pins | mtpins@nndev.org * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@visi.com * * ftp://ftp.nndev.org/pub | #include * ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27A412.B54C6A12@cisco.com> <3B2A6282.9F6FDC81@computer.org> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 40 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:56:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 992638612 209.98.98.8 (Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:56:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:56:52 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83797 Sam Yorko writes: >J Ahlstrom wrote: >> >> I have found a source for real keyboards >> Creative Vision Technologies >> http://www.cvtinc.com >> >> They have a mediocre web site and excellent >> phone sales support folk. >> >> JKA >> -- >> Extractio ad absurdum: >> Taking a sentence out of context and then >> attacking it for not making sense without >> the context. >> >> L Elmore >I'm sorry, but I get the idea that my last response to this message was >a bit unclear, so I will try again. >The Creative Vision Technologies keyboard >is< the old Northgate >keyboard. Creative Visions got all the rights, moulds, designs, masks, >etc. from what was left of Northgate. If you take apart a Creative >Vision keyboard (which I am typing on right now), the PC boards inside >still have the Northgate copyright notice on them. Unfortunately, all >that Creative Vision is selling is the Northgate OmniKey Ultra-T >keyboard, and I really like the Northgate OmniKey Ultra... I can't tell from the pictures. I'm assuming these have the Control key in the wrong place (on the bottom row), rather than next to "a" where it belongs. If not, I'll need to order one of these.... -- ************************************************************************** * Michael T Pins | mtpins@nndev.org * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@visi.com * * ftp://ftp.nndev.org/pub | #include * ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 15 Jun 2001 16:15:32 -0600 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1bu21h8k57.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 992643330 25758 128.123.64.113 (15 Jun 2001 22:15:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 22:15:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83752 mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) writes: > > >Or the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys > >instead of F and J. While I never had any problems switching between > >type-paired and bit-paired keyboards, I can almost never touch-type > >for any length of time on a Mac keyboard because my hands automatically > >move to put the raised dot where my index fingers hit the keys. > > In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it > "wrong". Unfortunately, as you note, anyone used to them on F & J tend > to have problems when they're moved to D & K. I don't see that it would make much difference which home row keys it was, as long as everydoy did it the same. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:11:14 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gdlch$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992646712 nnrp-07:19054 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83767 According to Prof. Richard E. Hawkins : > Up there? well past it--the pc-jr keyboard was pretty much the 99/4 > keyboard with the ; key put back . . . The UK version was a bit like a Spectrum or Oric I keyboard, and was, for some bizarre reason, infra-red. At least that's how it looked in the magazine pictures, I never saw one in the flesh as they bombed. The TI99/4A keyboard seemed not dissimilar to the Psion 7's in terms of size, although was nastier in terms of feel. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:59:02 -0800 Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3B2AA146.C2D5DA40@computer.org> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27A412.B54C6A12@cisco.com> <3B2A6282.9F6FDC81@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (206.61.138.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 992645887 9159473 206.61.138.2 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83756 Michael T Pins wrote: > > Sam Yorko writes: > > >J Ahlstrom wrote: > >> > >> I have found a source for real keyboards > >> Creative Vision Technologies > >> http://www.cvtinc.com > >> > >> They have a mediocre web site and excellent > >> phone sales support folk. > >> > >> JKA > >> -- > >> Extractio ad absurdum: > >> Taking a sentence out of context and then > >> attacking it for not making sense without > >> the context. > >> > >> L Elmore > > >I'm sorry, but I get the idea that my last response to this message was > >a bit unclear, so I will try again. > > >The Creative Vision Technologies keyboard >is< the old Northgate > >keyboard. Creative Visions got all the rights, moulds, designs, masks, > >etc. from what was left of Northgate. If you take apart a Creative > >Vision keyboard (which I am typing on right now), the PC boards inside > >still have the Northgate copyright notice on them. Unfortunately, all > >that Creative Vision is selling is the Northgate OmniKey Ultra-T > >keyboard, and I really like the Northgate OmniKey Ultra... > > I can't tell from the pictures. I'm assuming these have the Control key in > the wrong place (on the bottom row), rather than next to "a" where it > belongs. If not, I'll need to order one of these.... > > -- Well, that was the nice thing about NorthGate, and by extension Creative Vision. You can swap the position of that key with something else (I forget what), and they give you a key top puller and the right key tops... Sam ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <9gd3i6$1me$1@top.mitre.org> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 15 Jun 2001 18:33:05 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 15 Jun 2001 18:52:42 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83868 jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: > Don't forget that the TTY33 was the el cheapo cousin to the TTY35. If > you wanted a battleship-solid design you wanted the 35; whether you > could afford to buy it was another question. What were the relative costs? (Or absolute, for that matter?) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: parag@codegen.com (Parag Patel) Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: CodeGen, Inc. Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.0 (FreeBSD) Lines: 30 X-Trace: MzAgTm9BdXRoVXNlciBURUxPYElUWS1SRUFERVJTIDY0LjE5NS4xOTIuMTMzICBGcmksIDE1IEp1!biAyMDAxIDIwOjQzOjQXIFBEVA== X-Abuse-Info: Please forward ALL headers when reporting abuse. X-Complaints-To: abuse@directvdsl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:43:44 PDT Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:43:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!216.227.56.88.MISMATCH!telocity-west!TELOCITY!newsrump.sjc.telocity.net!parag Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83759 These folks sell small keyboards with the correct layout (Control to the left of A, Escape above Tab and left of 1, Delete above Enter, and a rather nice feel. I have one of their black USB Lite-II models but they also have PS/2, Mac ADB, and older Sun compatible keyboards. The only glitch I had was the text rubbing off of the heavily used keys, but they've already replaced it under warrantee. I hope it was just bad luck and not a design flaw. Sun also sells their USB UNIX-layout keyboard directly at their web-site (store.sun.com I think). This has a much softer key-touch and also has the correct layout, plus all the additional keys ones fingers might be used to from using PCs for too long. (They also have PC-layout as well as international versions.) Neither of them makes clicky sounds, but then I prefer them quiet. The Lite-II is noisier than the Sun and has slightly deeper key motion. I like 'em both. Back when I used to work for HP (a long time ago) they used to make these unbelievable keyboards (unfortunately with their own key layout). The keys had the letters molded directly within them by placing a colored plastic letter or text into the key form before pouring its plastic. They never rubbed out. They also had effectively infinite-key roll-over with no contacts to gum up by using a small coil and magnet for each key. Expensive, but nice. -- Parag Patel "Knowledge Brings Fear" -- Martian University (Futurama) ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 16 Jun 2001 03:49:37 GMT Lines: 14 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <9gel0h$7q5$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27A412.B54C6A12@cisco.com> <3B2A6282.9F6FDC81@computer.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaGb9a94SH8pMHmLWAToqWbhDoZRI5aU4IvVG9dZGPaorQpe0owQEzp X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2001 03:49:37 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83775 Michael T Pins wrote: : I can't tell from the pictures. I'm assuming these have the Control key in : the wrong place (on the bottom row), rather than next to "a" where it : belongs. If not, I'll need to order one of these.... They come that way, but you can change it, and they come with replacement key caps for ctrl and capslock. I'm mostly happy with a cheap keyboard, and using xmodmap to map the capslock key to non-existance. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### Message-ID: <3B2AF9EA.DC666055@ev1.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:17:13 -0700 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: c1656384-a.plano1.tx.home.com X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 992664857 c1656384-a.plano1.tx.home.com (15 Jun 2001 23:14:17 -0500) Lines: 21 X-Authenticated-User: richmond Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83887 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:47:23 +0000 (UTC) > don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: > > DS> Well, I think I'd very much prefer that no-one sat on the display device > DS> on *my* ASR33. That top cover is just plastic, and not particularly > DS> good plastic at that. And the frame may look tough, but the tolerances > DS> are fairly tight, and it ain't gonna stand too much bending. > > You make good points, OTOH I *saw* one abused like this daily > and used it a lot too. OK those sitting on it were fifteen year old school > kids, not that that would help the laptop much :) > Maybe this is why the newer Apple Mac Powerbooks have a Titanium case!!! (I said 'Titanium', *not* 'Itanium'!!!) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:45:53 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 12 Message-ID: <20010616114553.28846663.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> <3B2AF9EA.DC666055@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p616.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992685807 21190 194.134.201.144 (16 Jun 2001 10:03:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:03:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83807 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:17:13 -0700 Charles Richmond wrote: CR> Maybe this is why the newer Apple Mac Powerbooks have a Titanium case!!! CR> (I said 'Titanium', *not* 'Itanium'!!!) Probably aimed at surviving getting checked in when flying :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 25 Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:45:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.245.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 992706321 24.161.245.59 (Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:45:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:45:21 EDT Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83872 *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Parag Patel turned to Hawkeye and me and said: > These folks sell small keyboards with the > correct layout (Control to the left of A, Escape above Tab and left of > 1, Delete above Enter, and a rather nice feel. I have one of their > black USB Lite-II models but they also have PS/2, Mac ADB, and older Sun > compatible keyboards. The only glitch I had was the text rubbing off of > the heavily used keys, but they've already replaced it under warrantee. > I hope it was just bad luck and not a design flaw. Alas, if the letters wore off the keys, it *was* a design flaw; the keys are stamped, instead of double shot injection molded. Personally, IBM/Lexmark's are my favorite keyboards... Luckily the layout doesn't squink me. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:49:48 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 42 Message-ID: <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-142-184.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 992706589 29864 207.148.142.184 (16 Jun 2001 15:49:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:49:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83874 On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:06:48 -0400, Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote: >On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:13:45 -0400, freddy1X wrote: > >>Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >> >>> Where does a curmudgeon who learned to type on a manual, pounds keys >>> silly, and likes them as stiff and tactile as an old clutch pedal, find >>> a keyboard these days? Damnit, when I hit a key, I want a) to know I've >>> hit it, b) the machine to know it's been hit, and c) everyone in >>> earshot to know, too . . . >> >>> hmm, maybe we should take up a collection and form >>> "curmudgeon-keyboards.com" . . . >>> >>> hawk >> >>You must realise that a REAL MAN's keyboard must be so heavily built as >>to require ( at least one ) REAL MAN to move it about. > >Speaking of REAL MAN's keyboards ;-) I remember one I had a misfortune to use in >xUSSR. Its case was a slab of aluminum with milled cavity for electronics. The >top plate (that held keys) was a 3 mm (1/8") thick still plate. The thing >weighted several kg! I remember it was a real strain to lift it. >To add insult to injury, it was used with the weirdest video terminal I ever >saw: it was a [kinda] clone of VT50, but it had a vector character generator, >which was, of course, not field-adjustable. So the characters looked weird to >begin with, and deteriorated into something unrecognizable over time. Don't remember a VT50 (VT52 yes), but ISTR a VT05 scope/vector display (was that used on GT40?) that could have been souped up with a keyboard and character generator. Could that be it? [xposted to alt.sys.pdp11] Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 21:00:58 +0100 Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: mc4as18-82-153-185.cw-visp.com X-Trace: 16 Jun 2001 20:05:11 GMT, mc4as18-82-153-185.cw-visp.com Lines: 15 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!mc4as18-82-153-185.cw-visp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83745 On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:49:48 -0600, Brian Inglis in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >Don't remember a VT50 (VT52 yes), but ISTR a VT05 scope/vector >display (was that used on GT40?) that could have been souped up >with a keyboard and character generator. Could that be it? > Both were dumb terminals. VT05 dates from about 1970. I had the loan of a VT05 once, whilst a LA30 was repaired. It seemed so strange to see the chars as they were typed, I just couldn't get used to it. Regards, David P. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 01 09:00:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <9gi4mt$dhn$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYrVoZvWyXd1oCvsPu7mcasbzS7At70nGWuU8iaVD4Q9TdWVGukvCkL X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 11:35:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-249 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83920 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Brian" == Brian Inglis writes: > > Brian> On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:06:48 -0400, Alexandre Pechtchanski > Brian> wrote: > > >> To add insult to injury, it was used with the weirdest video terminal I > >> ever saw: it was a [kinda] clone of VT50, but it had a vector character > >> generator, which was, of course, not field-adjustable. So the > >> characters looked weird to begin with, and deteriorated into something > >> unrecognizable over time. > > Brian> Don't remember a VT50 (VT52 yes), but ISTR a VT05 scope/vector > Brian> display (was that used on GT40?) that could have been souped up > Brian> with a keyboard and character generator. Could that be it? > >The VT50 preceded the VT52 and had the wonderful feature of only 12 lines. And uppercase. >The VT05 was (AFAIK) only a character terminal. You can get a list of terminal features by reading SYSDPY. > The GT40 used a VT11. > The first time I met a GT40 was when I fiddled with typsetting JMF's resume. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Colin J Denman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:40:11 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.20.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: wards 992728030 212.159.20.169 (Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:47:10 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:47:10 BST Organization: Customer of PlusNet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet!landlord!wards.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83960 The VT-52 was the finest keyboard I've ever used -- a wonderful kickback feel when you typed each key, much better than the VT-100. Nearest equivalent was an ASR-33, which was a bit OTT by comparison (see those teletypes dance across the floor :-) Regards, Colin J Denman mailto:spam@cjdenman.freeserve.co.uk -- use my first name http://www.cjdenman.freeserve.co.uk/ David Powell wrote in message ... >On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:49:48 -0600, Brian Inglis > in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > >>Don't remember a VT50 (VT52 yes), but ISTR a VT05 scope/vector >>display (was that used on GT40?) that could have been souped up >>with a keyboard and character generator. Could that be it? >> > >Both were dumb terminals. VT05 dates from about 1970. I had the loan >of a VT05 once, whilst a LA30 was repaired. It seemed so strange to >see the chars as they were typed, I just couldn't get used to it. > >Regards, > >David P. ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 16 Jun 2001 14:04:16 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <3B27E599.5F9D@indyx.net> <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 992736260 25265 128.171.80.135 (17 Jun 2001 00:04:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 00:04:20 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83948 >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Inglis writes: Brian> On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:06:48 -0400, Alexandre Pechtchanski Brian> wrote: >> To add insult to injury, it was used with the weirdest video terminal I >> ever saw: it was a [kinda] clone of VT50, but it had a vector character >> generator, which was, of course, not field-adjustable. So the >> characters looked weird to begin with, and deteriorated into something >> unrecognizable over time. Brian> Don't remember a VT50 (VT52 yes), but ISTR a VT05 scope/vector Brian> display (was that used on GT40?) that could have been souped up Brian> with a keyboard and character generator. Could that be it? The VT50 preceded the VT52 and had the wonderful feature of only 12 lines. The VT05 was (AFAIK) only a character terminal. The GT40 used a VT11. Nothead ###### From: "Roger Johnstone" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:53:19 +1200 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9gh64h$66u$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> <1bu21h8k57.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 992746451 6366 203.173.222.130 (17 Jun 2001 02:54:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:54:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp-relay.ihug.net!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83906 In article <1bu21h8k57.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) writes: >> >> >Or the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys >> >instead of F and J. While I never had any problems switching between >> >type-paired and bit-paired keyboards, I can almost never touch-type >> >for any length of time on a Mac keyboard because my hands automatically >> >move to put the raised dot where my index fingers hit the keys. >> >> In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it >> "wrong". Unfortunately, as you note, anyone used to them on F & J tend >> to have problems when they're moved to D & K. > > I don't see that it would make much difference which home row keys it > was, as long as everydoy did it the same. A few years ago Apple changed to F & J too, presumably to make them 'more compatible'. Doesn't worry me in the least, since I'm only a four-fingered typer. I've never been able to think fast enough to keep up with my typing anyway :) -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - Future Cop:LAPD - Warcraft II http://homepage.mac.com/rojaws ______________________________________________________________________ Oh sweet Baby Jesus, if Windows is the OS of the future, please let me die now - Bryan Chaffin, The Mac Observer ###### From: "Roger Johnstone" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:12:56 +1200 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gdlch$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 992747627 7389 203.173.222.130 (17 Jun 2001 03:13:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:13:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83905 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: > According to Prof. Richard E. Hawkins : >> Up there? well past it--the pc-jr keyboard was pretty much the 99/4 >> keyboard with the ; key put back . . . > > The UK version was a bit like a Spectrum or Oric I keyboard, and was, > for some bizarre reason, infra-red. At least that's how it looked in > the magazine pictures, I never saw one in the flesh as they bombed. > The TI99/4A keyboard seemed not dissimilar to the Psion 7's in terms > of size, although was nastier in terms of feel. Yes, it was an infrared keyboard. Don't forget this was targeted as a home computer. It had CGA graphics and could be plugged into a TV. My guess is, if you're sitting on the couch and the computer is sitting on the floor plugged into the TV, an IR interface means you don't have a keyboard cable stretched tight between you and the computer. I've never even seen a PC Junior, although I did once see the cardboard box a PC JX came in. It was the successor to the PC jr. Apparently it used a wired keyboard. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - Future Cop:LAPD - Warcraft II http://homepage.mac.com/rojaws ______________________________________________________________________ Oh sweet Baby Jesus, if Windows is the OS of the future, please let me die now - Bryan Chaffin, The Mac Observer ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:47 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9gi323$tko$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> <3B2AF9EA.DC666055@ev1.net> <20010616114553.28846663.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: raewyn.paradise.net.nz 992776067 30360 203.96.144.16 (17 Jun 2001 11:07:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news01.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83938 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: > >CR> Maybe this is why the newer Apple Mac Powerbooks have a Titanium case!!! >CR> (I said 'Titanium', *not* 'Itanium'!!!) > > Probably aimed at surviving getting checked in when flying :) Are there really people in the world who trust their laptops to airline baggage handlers? -- don ###### From: u.dont@need.it Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:30:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: CAIS Internet Lines: 51 Sender: u.dont@need.it Message-ID: <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gdlch$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.220.243.169 X-Trace: allthetime.news.cais.net 992777402 41831 63.220.243.169 (17 Jun 2001 11:30:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cais.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:30:02 +0000 (UTC) Origintor: u.dont@need.it X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Originator: bonomi@news2.bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!infeed1.news.cais.net!nnrp-corp.news.cais.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83947 In article <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>, Roger Johnstone wrote: >In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris >Hedley) wrote: > >> According to Prof. Richard E. Hawkins : >>> Up there? well past it--the pc-jr keyboard was pretty much the 99/4 >>> keyboard with the ; key put back . . . >> >> The UK version was a bit like a Spectrum or Oric I keyboard, and was, >> for some bizarre reason, infra-red. At least that's how it looked in >> the magazine pictures, I never saw one in the flesh as they bombed. >> The TI99/4A keyboard seemed not dissimilar to the Psion 7's in terms >> of size, although was nastier in terms of feel. > >Yes, it was an infrared keyboard. Don't forget this was targeted as a home >computer. It had CGA graphics and could be plugged into a TV. My guess is, >if you're sitting on the couch and the computer is sitting on the floor >plugged into the TV, an IR interface means you don't have a keyboard cable >stretched tight between you and the computer. > >I've never even seen a PC Junior, although I did once see the cardboard box >a PC JX came in. It was the successor to the PC jr. Apparently it used a >wired keyboard. the PC Jr came with two variants of keyboards. Both ran wireless (infra-red), or wired (serial over telephone cable w/ RJ-11 connectors) One keyboard was the infamous "chicklet" type -- a membrane type w/o any real key travel, The later model had real keys, *UNRELIABLE* memory says it was made by Chicony, _lousy_ feel for touch typing, but orders of magnitude better than the membrane one. As mentioned, CGA graphics, COMPOSITE VIDEO was the standard output, had to get a special cable (*NOT* included) to use the RGB TTL out. Also notable for having two externally accessible ROM CARTRIDGE slots. for game cartridges, etc. Think of a 'non-internet' web-tv box, and/or a very primitive 'game console', and you have the _apparent_ market that IBM was aiming at. Trivia: IBM went to _great_ lengths to make sure it wasn't usable as a "real" computer. To the point of _adding_circuitry_ to the box in a deliberate effort to REDUCE functionality. Resulting in a box that could _not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In particular, you could not receive data over the serial port _and_ write to floppy at the same time. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:23:08 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 13 Message-ID: <20010617162308.2cf825a7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> <3B2AF9EA.DC666055@ev1.net> <20010616114553.28846663.steveo@eircom.net> <9gi323$tko$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1088.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992790238 16867 194.134.203.69 (17 Jun 2001 15:03:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:03:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!195.64.68.27!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83935 On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:47 +0000 (UTC) don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: DS> Are there really people in the world who trust their laptops to airline DS> baggage handlers? They don't do it twice (except in extreme cases of stupidity), and they usually didn't pay for the laptop. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Mon, 18 Jun 01 09:30:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9gkqq9$br1$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGhu+8uAk8ZmU9Bn3OiBJ5HnSWBW0rFVEEwweswgjU4+6ziU5DUCSU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 12:05:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-130 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83996 In article , mwmiller@columbus.rr.com (Matthew W. Miller) wrote: >On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:53:11 GMT, Michael T Pins wrote: >>jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: >>>the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys >>>instead of F and J. >>In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it >>"wrong". > >Arguably everyone including Apple got it wrong by using the QWERTY layout >in the first place. And why not have Braille keytops instead of the silly >little keytits while going along with it? No! Those tits hurt my fingers. Adding more will increase the number of tender spots. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Mon, 18 Jun 01 09:28:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9gkqmh$br1$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> <3B2AF9EA.DC666055@ev1.net> <20010616114553.28846663.steveo@eircom.net> <9gi323$tko$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010617162308.2cf825a7.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZdj6fK+zmUBJNkp0jioqAorr6jy6kfN0ctYXfaiRlzy40VjhEf6H/0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 12:03:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-130 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83998 In article <20010617162308.2cf825a7.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:47 +0000 (UTC) >don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: > >DS> Are there really people in the world who trust >DS> their laptops to airline >DS> baggage handlers? > > They don't do it twice (except in extreme cases of >stupidity), and they >usually didn't pay for the laptop. > I don't trust my _baggage_ to airline baggage handlers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 17 Jun 2001 19:41:08 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gdlch$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992808215 nnrp-14:10129 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83988 u.dont@need.it wrote: [IBM PC-jr] : As mentioned, CGA graphics, COMPOSITE VIDEO was the standard output, It was slightly better than CGA. You could have a 320*200 mode in 16 colours, not the 4 you are limited to on CGA. : had to get a special cable (*NOT* included) to use the RGB TTL out. Yes, but it was just a cable (header socket at one end, DE9 socket at the other). The wirelist is in the TechRef, it's not hard to make one up. : Also notable for having two externally accessible ROM CARTRIDGE slots. : for game cartridges, etc. : Think of a 'non-internet' web-tv box, and/or a very primitive 'game console', : and you have the _apparent_ market that IBM was aiming at. : Trivia: IBM went to _great_ lengths to make sure it wasn't usable as a : "real" computer. To the point of _adding_circuitry_ to the box in a : deliberate effort to REDUCE functionality. Resulting in a box that could I have the IBM PC-jr Technical Reference Manual here, and I don't recall seeing anything added to reduce functionality. Plenty of things missed out, sure. I've read the scheamtics a couple of times. What, in particular, were you thinking of. One nasty incompatibility was that the clock for the 8250 (serial port chip) was a different freuqnecy to the one used in all other PC-family machines. Which means that while you can get the PC-jr to do all the standard buad rates, you have to load a different divisor value. If you load the divisor you would have used on a PC, the port runs at some totally non-standard rate and won't communicate with anything normal. So most comms software fails on the jr... : _not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In particular, you could not : receive data over the serial port _and_ write to floppy at the same time. Wasn't that just a result of there being no DMA controller in the PC-jr -- the floppy controller used programmed I/O commands, and you had to keep up with the data requests from the controller chip. So you couldn't be handling serial port interrupts at the same time. The necessary signals for adding a DMA controller (including the DRQ and DACK lines from the floppy controller chip) were available on the expansion connector, so it would have been possible to add a DMA controller in a sidecar. -tony ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:29:59 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: <704jg9.0s3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992810154 nnrp-01:28974 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83973 According to Tony Duell : > u.dont@need.it wrote: > : As mentioned, CGA graphics, COMPOSITE VIDEO was the standard output, > > It was slightly better than CGA. You could have a 320*200 mode in 16 > colours, not the 4 you are limited to on CGA. Am I right in remembering that the PCs with tv-out used the 6845 chip (the same one the BBC Micro used)? ISTR it was pretty nifty at the time, and I was quite jealous because my Dragon had the more cheapo 6847, which was extremely limited in comparison (32 x 16 text, uppercase only, and the amazingly high resolution 256 x 192 pixels in monochrome) Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: mwmiller@columbus.rr.com (Matthew W. Miller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: mwmiller@columbus.rr.com Approved: The cabal would never approve! Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 12 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 02:46:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.24.100.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.columbus.rr.com 992832408 65.24.100.78 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:46:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:46:48 EDT Organization: Road Runner Columbus Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!typhoon.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84008 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:53:11 GMT, Michael T Pins wrote: >jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: >>the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys >>instead of F and J. >In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it >"wrong". Arguably everyone including Apple got it wrong by using the QWERTY layout in the first place. And why not have Braille keytops instead of the silly little keytits while going along with it? -- Matthew W. Miller -- mwmiller@columbus.rr.com ###### From: u.dont@need.it Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Organization: CAIS Internet Lines: 74 Sender: u.dont@need.it Message-ID: <9gkgdr$2kdh$1@allgood.news.cais.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.220.243.169 X-Trace: allgood.news.cais.net 992855291 86449 63.220.243.169 (18 Jun 2001 09:08:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cais.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Oriinator: u.dont@need.it X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Originator: bonomi@news2.bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!infeed1.news.cais.net!nnrp-corp.news.cais.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84026 In article <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, Tony Duell wrote: >u.dont@need.it wrote: > >[IBM PC-jr] > >: As mentioned, CGA graphics, COMPOSITE VIDEO was the standard output, > >It was slightly better than CGA. You could have a 320*200 mode in 16 >colours, not the 4 you are limited to on CGA. > >: had to get a special cable (*NOT* included) to use the RGB TTL out. > >Yes, but it was just a cable (header socket at one end, DE9 socket at the >other). The wirelist is in the TechRef, it's not hard to make one up. > >: Also notable for having two externally accessible ROM CARTRIDGE slots. >: for game cartridges, etc. > >: Think of a 'non-internet' web-tv box, and/or a very primitive 'game console', >: and you have the _apparent_ market that IBM was aiming at. > >: Trivia: IBM went to _great_ lengths to make sure it wasn't usable as a >: "real" computer. To the point of _adding_circuitry_ to the box in a >: deliberate effort to REDUCE functionality. Resulting in a box that could > >I have the IBM PC-jr Technical Reference Manual here, and I don't recall >seeing anything added to reduce functionality. Plenty of things missed >out, sure. I've read the scheamtics a couple of times. What, in >particular, were you thinking of. > >One nasty incompatibility was that the clock for the 8250 (serial port >chip) was a different freuqnecy to the one used in all other PC-family >machines. Which means that while you can get the PC-jr to do all the >standard buad rates, you have to load a different divisor value. If you >load the divisor you would have used on a PC, the port runs at some >totally non-standard rate and won't communicate with anything normal. A non-problem, *if* you used the BIOS call to set up the port. and then did everything else by bypassing the BIOS. :) >So most comms software fails on the jr... > >: _not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In particular, you could not >: receive data over the serial port _and_ write to floppy at the same time. > >Wasn't that just a result of there being no DMA controller in the PC-jr >-- the floppy controller used programmed I/O commands, and you had to >keep up with the data requests from the controller chip. So you couldn't >be handling serial port interrupts at the same time. correct about the limitation, INCORRECT about the cause. I'm working from memory here, w/o access to Jr. schematics. I did write code for a Jr that would forward/reverse scroll a file displayed on the screen, and _simultaneously_ do a file receive "in background". I ended up knowing a _lot_ more about that hardware than I really wanted to. All the required hardware to 'do it right' was present. ONE lead out of the floppy controller (interrupt, i think) was not connected anywhere. Instead of connecting that lead, so the floppy controller could signal when it was done, IBM added a 'watchdog circuit' that generated an NMI signal, after an excessive time. The Jr. BIOS ran in a tight 'polling' loop, *with*interrupts*disabled*, to catch the 'done' status, and disable the watchdog. As I recall, not having seen the schematics page in 15+ years, the diagram showed the lead exiting the left side of the fdc chip, connected to 'nothing', and the added circuitry was "right there" where the lead dead ended. It looked _really_obvious_ that it was a deliberate attempt to strangle performance, in hardware. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Reply-To: bv@wjv.com Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> Lines: 63 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:47:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.210.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 992877847 157.238.210.86 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:24:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:24:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!nosuchsite!bill Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84048 In article <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net>, wrote: >In article <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>, >Roger Johnstone wrote: >>In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris >>Hedley) wrote: >>> According to Prof. Richard E. Hawkins : >>> >>>> Up there? well past it--the pc-jr keyboard was pretty much the >>>> 99/4 keyboard with the ; key put back . . . >>> The UK version was a bit like a Spectrum or Oric I keyboard, and >>> was, for some bizarre reason, infra-red. At least that's how it >>> looked in the magazine pictures, I never saw one in the flesh >>> as they bombed. The TI99/4A keyboard seemed not dissimilar to >>> the Psion 7's in terms of size, although was nastier in terms of >>> feel. >the PC Jr came with two variants of keyboards. >Both ran wireless (infra-red), or wired (serial over telephone >cable w/ RJ-11 connectors) ... >As mentioned, CGA graphics, COMPOSITE VIDEO was the standard output, >had to get a special cable (*NOT* included) to use the RGB TTL out. And the video was mapped into high RAM. The little Sanyo also did that - some design idea to save money I guess - but for anything that didn't use standard system calls [and many worked around them for speed] it was a disaster. The Jr. was dicontinued about 1 month before Tandy was to introduce their Pc Jr clone. Big back track, and it was just introduced as an MS-DOS compatible [not PC compatible] and called the Tandy 1000. >Also notable for having two externally accessible ROM CARTRIDGE slots. >for game cartridges, etc. >Think of a 'non-internet' web-tv box, and/or a very primitive 'game >console', and you have the _apparent_ market that IBM was aiming >at. Which was a pretty non-existant market. >Trivia: IBM went to _great_ lengths to make sure it wasn't usable >as a "real" computer. To the point of _adding_circuitry_ to the >box in a deliberate effort to REDUCE functionality. Resulting in >a box that could _not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In >particular, you could not receive data over the serial port _and_ >write to floppy at the same time. Well other machines were a bit problematic in that area. Even the original PC's would pause to write data to the HD and stop serial input while doing that. There were a few forward thinking programs that toggled between both so that flow seemed continous. I hated serial communications on any of those style beasts [eg PC style] -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:51:09 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9gl4gt$krd$1@news.panix.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992875869 21357 166.84.0.231 (18 Jun 2001 14:51:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:51:09 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83983 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >The VT05 was (AFAIK) only a character terminal. The GT40 used a VT11. The VT05 models we used at the school had cursor positioning and at least home and clear screen functions. One student wrote a precursor to asteroids that had static objects, with an "A" shaped ship, the object was to move to the top of the screen. This was on a 110 baud connection to a PDP-8/i running TSS/8. It was really cool when my dad brought one home with an AJ accoustical coupler. I could connect to the PDP-10 my dad used at a blazing 300 baud! 8^) -- Help fight continental drift. ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:59:21 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <1tamitc23l9n2h6du2v193c0sfno29560i@4ax.com> <9gl4gt$krd$1@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992876361 21357 166.84.0.231 (18 Jun 2001 14:59:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:59:21 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83975 In article <9gl4gt$krd$1@news.panix.com>, Michael Roach wrote: > >The VT05 models we used at the school had cursor positioning and at >least home and clear screen functions. One student wrote a precursor to >asteroids that had static objects, with an "A" shaped ship, the object >was to move to the top of the screen. This was on a 110 baud connection >to a PDP-8/i running TSS/8. > >It was really cool when my dad brought one home with an AJ accoustical >coupler. I could connect to the PDP-10 my dad used at a blazing 300 >baud! 8^) Uh, my dad brought home a VT05. AFAIK he never brought home a PDP-8/i, "A" shaped rocket ship or an asteroid. -- Be careful of reading health books, you might die of a misprint. -- Mark Twain ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:50:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.245.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 992879403 24.161.245.59 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:50:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:50:03 EDT Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84038 *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Bill Vermillion turned to Hawkeye and me and said: > And the video was mapped into high RAM. The little Sanyo also did > that - some design idea to save money I guess - but for anything > that didn't use standard system calls [and many worked around them > for speed] it was a disaster. MBC-555? Got one in the other room. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:53:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.245.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 992879614 24.161.245.59 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:53:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:53:34 EDT Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84042 *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Bill Vermillion turned to Hawkeye and me and said: > >Trivia: IBM went to _great_ lengths to make sure it wasn't usable > >as a "real" computer. To the point of _adding_circuitry_ to the > >box in a deliberate effort to REDUCE functionality. Resulting in > >a box that could _not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In > >particular, you could not receive data over the serial port _and_ > >write to floppy at the same time. > > Well other machines were a bit problematic in that area. Even the > original PC's would pause to write data to the HD and stop serial > input while doing that. There were a few forward thinking > programs that toggled between both so that flow seemed continous. > I hated serial communications on any of those style beasts [eg PC > style] It was my understanding that this was also done to the TI 99/4; someone told me that the CPU's access to main memory (!) had to go through a bounce buffer in the video chip (!) (or something similar to that). Anyone know that story? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 21:23:17 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6uae35iod6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <704jg9.0s3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 992892197 538 10.0.3.2 (18 Jun 2001 19:23:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 19:23:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84064 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > Am I right in remembering that the PCs with tv-out used the 6845 chip (the > same one the BBC Micro used)? ISTR it was pretty nifty at the time, and I Yes. Nice chip. The first computer I ever used had a 6845 in its terminal (Z80 based) connected then by RS232 to the host (also a Z80). > was quite jealous because my Dragon had the more cheapo 6847, which was > extremely limited in comparison (32 x 16 text, uppercase only, and the > amazingly high resolution 256 x 192 pixels in monochrome) Yup. One lousy chip that marred an otherwise nice computer. Main reason I ditched it for an C64. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 21:27:59 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6u7ky9io5c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 992892479 538 10.0.3.2 (18 Jun 2001 19:27:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 19:27:59 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84065 jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) writes: > *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Bill Vermillion turned > to Hawkeye and me and said: > > Well other machines were a bit problematic in that area. Even the > > original PC's would pause to write data to the HD and stop serial > > input while doing that. There were a few forward thinking > > programs that toggled between both so that flow seemed continous. > > I hated serial communications on any of those style beasts [eg PC > > style] > > It was my understanding that this was also done to the TI 99/4; This is not the same thing. In the PC it is 2 processors (CPU and FDC) accessing one public memory. > told me that the CPU's access to main memory (!) had to go through a > bounce buffer in the video chip (!) (or something similar to that). The CPU had 256 bytes of directly accessible memory, used for the most important Basic state variables. Also the Basic ROM was directly accessable. But the big bank of 16k of DRAM belonges to the video chip (9918), which only used 6k of it for the picture. So Basic used the other 10k for its program and variables. To access that, it had to go through the video chip. So here it is 1 processor (CPU) accessing annothers (Video) private memory. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: mwmiller@columbus.rr.com (Matthew W. Miller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: mwmiller@columbus.rr.com Approved: The cabal would never approve! Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 12 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 02:47:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.24.100.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.columbus.rr.com 992832449 65.24.100.78 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:47:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:47:29 EDT Organization: Road Runner Columbus Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!typhoon.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84087 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:53:11 GMT, Michael T Pins wrote: >jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: >>the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys >>instead of F and J. >In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it >"wrong". Arguably everyone including Apple got it wrong by using the QWERTY layout in the first place. And why not have Braille keytops instead of the silly little keytits while going along with it? -- Matthew W. Miller -- mwmiller@columbus.rr.com ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:32:32 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20010618203232.69cb6bb3.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> <3B2AF9EA.DC666055@ev1.net> <20010616114553.28846663.steveo@eircom.net> <9gi323$tko$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010617162308.2cf825a7.steveo@eircom.net> <9gkqmh$br1$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p333.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992890844 46894 194.134.200.225 (18 Jun 2001 19:00:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:00:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84103 On Mon, 18 Jun 01 09:28:03 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > I don't trust my _baggage_ to airline baggage handlers. Did I say these people were sane ? I make 15-20 trips a year (and it has been much higher) and I *never* let them stick anything in the hold. I've occasionally thought that (if airline prices were rational) I ought to be able to get a discount for not making them haul another 20Kg of junk around. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9g84sl$ke6$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> <9g8d87$1pga@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gd3ov$1qd$1@top.mitre.org> <1bu21h8k57.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4vsX6.17576$Dd5.3768839@ruti.visi.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:19:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 992891968 209.98.98.8 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:19:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:19:28 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84089 Joe Pfeiffer writes: >mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) writes: >> >> >Or the Macintosh keyboard, which puts the raised dot on the D and K keys >> >instead of F and J. While I never had any problems switching between >> >type-paired and bit-paired keyboards, I can almost never touch-type >> >for any length of time on a Mac keyboard because my hands automatically >> >move to put the raised dot where my index fingers hit the keys. >> >> In this case, I think Apple got it "right", and everyone else got it >> "wrong". Unfortunately, as you note, anyone used to them on F & J tend >> to have problems when they're moved to D & K. >I don't see that it would make much difference which home row keys it >was, as long as everydoy did it the same. The main difference is that your fingers spend more time near/on D and K than they do near/on F and J. But yes, when everyone else has them on F and J, and the difference is this trivial, there wasn't much point. -- ************************************************************************** * Michael T Pins | mtpins@nndev.org * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@visi.com * * ftp://ftp.nndev.org/pub | #include * ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) From: mtpins@visi.com (Michael T Pins) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:21:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 992892115 209.98.98.8 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:21:55 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:21:55 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84090 parag@codegen.com (Parag Patel) writes: >Back when I used to work for HP (a long time ago) they used to make >these unbelievable keyboards (unfortunately with their own key layout). >The keys had the letters molded directly within them by placing a >colored plastic letter or text into the key form before pouring its >plastic. They never rubbed out. They also had effectively infinite-key >roll-over with no contacts to gum up by using a small coil and magnet >for each key. Expensive, but nice. When abouts was this? My first experience with HP keyboards was when they were forcing us off Apollo and onto HPs. Apollo made *really* nice keyboards, the HP keyboards were terrible. I suspect older HP keyboards were rather better. -- ************************************************************************** * Michael T Pins | mtpins@nndev.org * * keeper of the nn sources | mtpins@visi.com * * ftp://ftp.nndev.org/pub | #include * ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 21:06:17 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9glmvp$nu@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <704jg9.0s3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992900204 nnrp-07:27673 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84084 Chris Hedley (cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk) wrote: : According to Tony Duell : : > u.dont@need.it wrote: : > : As mentioned, CGA graphics, COMPOSITE VIDEO was the standard output, : > : > It was slightly better than CGA. You could have a 320*200 mode in 16 : > colours, not the 4 you are limited to on CGA. : Am I right in remembering that the PCs with tv-out used the 6845 chip (the : same one the BBC Micro used)? ISTR it was pretty nifty at the time, and I : was quite jealous because my Dragon had the more cheapo 6847, which was : extremely limited in comparison (32 x 16 text, uppercase only, and the : amazingly high resolution 256 x 192 pixels in monochrome) The 6845 ('CRT Controller') is a device which generates the sync signals and the addresses for the video RAM. It is not the complete display system. Yes it can be used at TV rates (UK and US) -- the BBC micro, IBM CGA card, etc all used it. It can also be used for other scan rates -- the IBM MDA card I am reading this with uses a 6845. The fact that a display system used a 6845 doesn't mean that it works at TV scan rates. The 6847 essentially only works at TV rates, but it does a lot more than the 6845. It generatedsthe video RAM addresses, generates the sync signals and takes the data from the RAM, turns it into characters or graphics and generates a video dot datastream from that. A 6847 + RAM was just about all you needed for a very simple display (that's what the Acorn Atom uses). Alternatively, you can use a 6883 SAM (Synchronous Address Multiplexer) to address the video RAM (and control DRAM, generate processor clocks, etc) and end up with a few extra video modes. That's what the Dragon and CoCo 1/CoCo2 do. A display system built round a 6845 is going to be more complex than one using a 6847 (with the 6845 you might need a hardware character generator, you will need a video dot shift register, and you will need a fair amount of glue logic), but it could be more versatile, and it could have higher resolution, or upper and lower case, or... -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 21:22:41 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9glnuh$p1@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <9gkgdr$2kdh$1@allgood.news.cais.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992900206 nnrp-07:27673 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84079 u.dont@need.it wrote: : >I have the IBM PC-jr Technical Reference Manual here, and I don't recall : >seeing anything added to reduce functionality. Plenty of things missed : >out, sure. I've read the scheamtics a couple of times. What, in : >particular, were you thinking of. [...] : >: _not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In particular, you could not : >: receive data over the serial port _and_ write to floppy at the same time. : > : >Wasn't that just a result of there being no DMA controller in the PC-jr : >-- the floppy controller used programmed I/O commands, and you had to : >keep up with the data requests from the controller chip. So you couldn't : >be handling serial port interrupts at the same time. : correct about the limitation, INCORRECT about the cause. Well, the lack of DMA didn't help... But you're right, nor does the lack of (proper) interrupts from the FDC chip. : I'm working from memory here, w/o access to Jr. schematics. I did write I've just got out my PC-jr TechRef. You are right -- I've found the circuit you mentioned. It's the 555 timer ZM3 and associated components on the FDC card. It generates an interrupt (on IRQ6) after a few seconds. : All the required hardware to 'do it right' was present. : ONE lead out of the floppy controller (interrupt, i think) was not Yep, the IRQ output of the FDC chip doesn't go anywhere.... : connected anywhere. Instead of connecting that lead, so the floppy : controller could signal when it was done, IBM added a 'watchdog circuit' : that generated an NMI signal, after an excessive time. The Jr. BIOS ran : in a tight 'polling' loop, *with*interrupts*disabled*, to catch the 'done' : status, and disable the watchdog. Yes. Having just read the BIOS listings, the method it uses to detect a write-protected disk is amazing!. It appears that the FDC aborts the command (as it should do), but as it can't interrupt the processor, the processor can't know anything is wrong until the watchdog times out. Then it reads the FDC status and notices that the disk was write-protected. Hmmm.... : As I recall, not having seen the schematics page in 15+ years, the diagram : showed the lead exiting the left side of the fdc chip, connected to 'nothing', : and the added circuitry was "right there" where the lead dead ended. The interupt pin isn't marked on my schematic at all, but there is an unmarked pin on the LHS of the floppy controller in sheet 3 of the schematics that might be it. The watchdog circuitry is just above it. : It looked _really_obvious_ that it was a deliberate attempt to strangle : performance, in hardware. Hmmm.. I am not totally convinced. On the other hand, why else wouldn't they just link the IRQ output of the FDC chip to IRQ6 and do the job properly. It'd be less components, a simpler BIOS, etc. -tony ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 18 Jun 2001 20:52:06 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9glplm$sgt$1@news.panix.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gi323$tko$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010617162308.2cf825a7.steveo@eircom.net> <9gkqmh$br1$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992897526 29213 166.84.0.231 (18 Jun 2001 20:52:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 20:52:06 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84083 In article <9gkqmh$br1$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <20010617162308.2cf825a7.steveo@eircom.net>, > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:47 +0000 (UTC) >>don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: >> >>DS> Are there really people in the world who trust >>DS> their laptops to airline >>DS> baggage handlers? >> >> They don't do it twice (except in extreme cases of >>stupidity), and they >>usually didn't pay for the laptop. > >I don't trust my _baggage_ to airline baggage handlers. Me either, that's why I check mine - I can use the money! The floppy with ssh goes in my shirt pocket. If I have a laptop with me it's in the backpack. I also carry an extra day's worth of clothing in the backpack. When travelling together, there's an additional day's worth in my wife's checked bag, and my wife has a day's worth in my checked bag. If our daugher's with us we all have 3 day's worth of backups in carryon and each other's checked bags 8^) -- Romeo wasn't bilked in a day. -- Walt Kelly, "Ten Ever-Lovin' Blue-Eyed Years With Pogo" ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:39:19 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <992907559snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <9gkgdr$2kdh$1@allgood.news.cais.net> <9glnuh$p1@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 992932175 mail2news:29055 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84239 In article <9glnuh$p1@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk "Tony Duell" writes: > Yes. Having just read the BIOS listings, the method it uses to detect a > write-protected disk is amazing!. It appears that the FDC aborts the > command (as it should do), but as it can't interrupt the processor, the > processor can't know anything is wrong until the watchdog times out. Then > it reads the FDC status and notices that the disk was write-protected. > Hmmm.... Having cut his teeth on programming BIOS, the author then went off to work for Microsoft... -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com (Parag Patel) Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010613203910.4f2ca9a1.steveo@eircom.net> <992468010.14106.0.nnrp-01.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <20010614225336.57452f06.steveo@eircom.net> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: CodeGen, Inc. Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.0 (FreeBSD) Lines: 28 X-Trace: MjggTm9BdXRoVXNlciBURUxPQ0lUWS1SRUFERVJTIDY0LjE5NS4xOTIuMTMzICBNb24sIDE4IEp1!biAyMDAxIDIyOjA3OjA5IFBEVA== X-Abuse-Info: Please forward ALL headers when reporting abuse. X-Complaints-To: abuse@directvdsl.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:07:09 PDT Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:07:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.stealth.net!216.227.56.88.MISMATCH!telocity-west!TELOCITY!newsrump.sjc.telocity.net!parag Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84151 In article , Michael T Pins wrote: > > My first experience with HP keyboards was when they were forcing us off > Apollo and onto HPs. Apollo made *really* nice keyboards, the HP keyboards > were terrible. I suspect older HP keyboards were rather better. These things were already old in 1983. They were part of old tank-like terminals that were neither IBM nor VT compatible. They weren't on any swivel stand - just a big ugly box with an angled display. They had a thick cable connecting the keyboard to the box with a custom connector. They only supported ENQ-ACK for flow control (computer sends ENQ every 40-80 chars or so, and the terminal has to ACK before the computer resumes sending). No XON-XOFF, no hardware flow or it was unusable due to lame computers. I've purged most of the various model numbers from my memory. I think the 64000 embedded development systems had similar keyboards but my memory is going. Well, at least my memory for trivia. :) Regarding an earlier comment about printed-on keys, they're not necessarily bad if they've then been covered with some thin protectant - a transparent paint/plastic or something like that. Unfortunately it looks like the Happy Hacker Lite-II black USB isn't. Oh well. -- Parag Patel ###### From: nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 19 Jun 2001 06:23:16 GMT Organization: Around here? Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9gmr4k$olh$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <9gitk4$gq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <704jg9.0s3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <9glmvp$nu@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-219-114.btinternet.com User-Agent: Xnews/4.04.17tea Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84216 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote in <9glmvp$nu@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>: > A display system built round a 6845 is going to be more complex than > one using a 6847 (with the 6845 you might need a hardware character > generator, you will need a video dot shift register, and you will need > a fair amount of glue logic), but it could be more versatile, and it > could have higher resolution, or upper and lower case, or... > and IIRC it was possible to play games with the registers to do tricks like hardware scrolling (which was very useful on slow eight-bit machines) and line-at-a-time smooth scrolling (which IMHO was an abomination). It was easy to use with video ram, a character rom, and a shift register...but on the other hand you could do the same things (except on the fly mode changes) with a couple of 74163s instead. THat had the advantage of being slightly cheaper, and the code to write to the screen was easier! -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:42:07 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3b2f8113$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gdlch$1nsg@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.27/27 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84184 In <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net>, on 06/17/01 at 11:30 AM, u.dont@need.it said: >Trivia: IBM went to _great_ lengths to make sure it wasn't usable as a >"real" computer. To the point of _adding_circuitry_ to the box in a >deliberate effort to REDUCE functionality. Resulting in a box that could >_not_ "walk and chew gum at the same time". In particular, you could not >receive data over the serial port _and_ write to floppy at the same >time. OTOH, someone (the name Crumley comes to mind) designed addon hardware (a sidecar) that allowed a certain amount of expansion and even a hard drive to be attached. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- "Unix _IS_ user friendly... It's just selective about who its friends are." ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:25:24 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <3b2f8113$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992982448 nnrp-02:9667 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84160 According to Julian Thomas : > OTOH, someone (the name Crumley comes to mind) designed addon hardware (a > sidecar) that allowed a certain amount of expansion and even a hard drive > to be attached. Sounds a bit like a machine I really wanted to get back in about '84; I really can't remember the name of the thing (so if anybody has any ideas I'd be grateful to know!) but it looked like a modern slimline PC, only in black. The front had a flip-down door where the keyboard could live when not in use; it was (loosely?) designed around the original PC architecture, with (IIRC) 128KB RAM, cassette-only interface, TV out, and not a lot else. An option was a whopping great expansion box, about twice the size of the main unit, which could house a couple of floppies and assorted other things. Seemed like a good idea at the time but my finances didn't stretch that far so I got an Acorn Electron instead. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 19 Jun 2001 19:12:57 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9gom9p$589$1@panix6.panix.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615204737.790af517.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992992378 27039 166.84.0.231 (19 Jun 2001 23:12:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2001 23:12:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!panix6.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84152 >>Back when I used to work for HP (a long time ago) they used to make >>these unbelievable keyboards Umm, any way to describe or identify them? What interface? Were these the ones with the ridges along the top? >When abouts was this? >My first experience with HP keyboards was when they were forcing us off >Apollo and onto HPs. Apollo made *really* nice keyboards, the HP keyboards >were terrible. I suspect older HP keyboards were rather better. I remember Apollo/Mentor graphics before the HP merger. The Apollo CAD/CAM workstations had military-looking handles and pull-out components, and they all networked very well under Apollo Domain. It was spooky being in the otherwise empty lab late one night when all the machines' disks started chattering in sequence as the automated backup ran! This was at a time we Unix folks barely had TCP/IP running, still using serial terminals and RS232 ports for UUNET! -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### From: Howie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Message-ID: <3s21jt4sqclnu1dsg2f54t0jtd0r0ja2kk@4ax.com> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> <3b2f8113$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 06:37:57 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-vI1s8tl8l+sf4HWK1eA30wLEyQo4Xy+9/EDsfHmIM2cqc/SMFGL3ScgzWonR6+oBJtJQ25bE2oDGhMP!Et99On2lnBWLVNUcCb6QTUH7kmPWCZgWacv/ThsDZR+SMslgWBIRk2RZzOtHRICBUw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:37:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84227 On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:25:24 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >Sounds a bit like a machine I really wanted to get back in about '84; I >really can't remember the name of the thing (so if anybody has any ideas >I'd be grateful to know!) but it looked like a modern slimline PC, only >in black. The front had a flip-down door where the keyboard could live >when not in use; it was (loosely?) designed around the original PC >architecture, with (IIRC) 128KB RAM, cassette-only interface, TV out, >and not a lot else. An option was a whopping great expansion box, about >twice the size of the main unit, which could house a couple of floppies >and assorted other things. Seemed like a good idea at the time but my >finances didn't stretch that far so I got an Acorn Electron instead. If think it was the Ferranti MSDOS machines you are thinking of. WH Smith sold them exclusively for about 6 months around that time. Howie ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 23 Jun 2001 22:03:17 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9h33n5$1edi@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gl4gt$krd$1@news.panix.com> <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84398 In article <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com>, Michael Roach wrote: >Uh, my dad brought home a VT05. AFAIK he never brought home a PDP-8/i, >"A" shaped rocket ship or an asteroid. *sigh* Another deprived childhood . . . :) come to think of it, my father never brought home any asteroids, either--not even a meteorite :( But he did bring home a reel-to-reel vidoe recorder at times . . . camera only; no tuner . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gl4gt$krd$1@news.panix.com> <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> <9h33n5$1edi@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:56:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.129.154.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 993365766 24.129.154.232 (Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:56:06 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:56:06 EDT Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84713 *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins turned to Hawkeye and me and said: > But he did bring home a reel-to-reel vidoe recorder at times . . . > camera only; no tuner . . . Sony's AV-3600, and it's matched camera, no doubt. 7th grade. One reel of tape. You'd be amazed how many passes that stuff was good for... :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 25 Jun 2001 00:24:31 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9h60bv$16ua@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> <9h33n5$1edi@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84410 In article , Jay R. Ashworth wrote: >*Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins turned > to Hawkeye and me and said: >> But he did bring home a reel-to-reel vidoe recorder at times . . . >> camera only; no tuner . . . >Sony's AV-3600, and it's matched camera, no doubt. 7th grade. One >reel of tape. You'd be amazed how many passes that stuff was good >for... :-) I dunno. THis was the late '60s and a year or two into the '70s-- I can't imagine a school district buying a *japanese* product at that point . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 25 Jun 2001 01:01:37 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9h62hh$gli$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gh79a$76t$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9gi4bq$18r7$1@allthetime.news.cais.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVabR51pS7EtsQKwob8Jn/ggmTMzBD8L4ZQQVqV8HwqOnWPv/qhITC4E X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2001 01:01:37 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84489 Bill Vermillion wrote: > The Jr. was dicontinued about 1 month before Tandy was to introduce > their Pc Jr clone. Big back track, and it was just introduced > as an MS-DOS compatible [not PC compatible] and called the Tandy > 1000. I'm not sure I believe that chronology. The Tandy 1000 is the cover story of the January, 1985 issue of Popular Computing, and the article explicitly compares it to both the PC and PCjr. The same issue has an article about the new improved version of the PCjr. Neither gives any reason to believe that the jr had been discontinued by that time, and IBM was still advertising the machine months later. The 1000 was pretty close to PC compatible. It was the 2000 that was an MS-DOS machine pretty far removed from the PC. eric ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 25 Jun 2001 01:24:24 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9h63s8$o62$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gblur$16bh$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <9gd3i6$1me$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYHhPk+biMcejs7oZdohhH4F32Vc73CYT9joGxQFBsBLco8+se40Kyb X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2001 01:24:24 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84390 Eric Smith wrote: > jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: > > > Don't forget that the TTY33 was the el cheapo cousin to the TTY35. If > > you wanted a battleship-solid design you wanted the 35; whether you > > could afford to buy it was another question. > > What were the relative costs? (Or absolute, for that matter?) According to an article in the April, 1977 Byte, the list price for an ASR 33 was $1090, while the comparable ASR 35 was $3800. (You could get a receive-only 33 for $649.) By the way, in pre-production planning for the 33 and 35, one of the Model 35 features that was going to be left off the Model 33 to cut the price was the Escape key, and the 33 was going to have the Control key on the right instead of on the left. I don't know why the plans changed. eric ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> <9h33n5$1edi@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9h60bv$16ua@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 29 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:06:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.92.16.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 993567967 24.92.16.197 (Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:06:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:06:07 EDT Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84764 *Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins turned to Hawkeye and me and said: > In article , > Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > >*Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins turned > > to Hawkeye and me and said: > >> But he did bring home a reel-to-reel vidoe recorder at times . . . > >> camera only; no tuner . . . > > >Sony's AV-3600, and it's matched camera, no doubt. 7th grade. One > >reel of tape. You'd be amazed how many passes that stuff was good > >for... :-) > > I dunno. THis was the late '60s and a year or two into the '70s-- > I can't imagine a school district buying a *japanese* product at > that point . . . I was in Junior High in 1977; that was what we had. I believe that was the first such small machine. It was B&W. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows ###### From: brian_huntley@my-deja.com (Brian Huntley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Date: 28 Jun 2001 15:27:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> <9h33n5$1edi@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9h60bv$16ua@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.205.248.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 993767254 12013 127.0.0.1 (28 Jun 2001 22:27:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2001 22:27:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84763 hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message news:<9h60bv$16ua@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>... > In article , > Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > >*Right* in the middle of the appendectomy, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins turned > > to Hawkeye and me and said: > >> But he did bring home a reel-to-reel vidoe recorder at times . . . > >> camera only; no tuner . . . > > >Sony's AV-3600, and it's matched camera, no doubt. 7th grade. One > >reel of tape. You'd be amazed how many passes that stuff was good > >for... :-) > > I dunno. THis was the late '60s and a year or two into the '70s-- > I can't imagine a school district buying a *japanese* product at > that point . . . > In 1971, I had access to two of these beasts - one that my school (jr. high) owned and the other from the highschool across the street. We dubbed tape-to-tape (-to-tape, probably) with 'live' camera inserts, and made a documentary about the Apollo program to date. The dubs were surprisingly true to the originals. Mind you, this was in northern Alberta, where even off-air television had a certain looking-through-the-aquarium look to it, so our standards were probably low. ###### From: gleason@encompasserve.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: keyboard wars [or, new keyboards for curmudgeons] Message-ID: References: <9g83pe$1ifu@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9gl509$krd$2@news.panix.com> <9h33n5$1edi@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9h60bv$16ua@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Organization: Encompasserve Lines: 19 Date: 29 Jun 2001 13:18:28 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.44.122.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 993835112 216.44.122.34 (Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:18:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:18:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!gleason Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84811 In article , brian_huntley@my-deja.com (Brian Huntley) writes: >> > > In 1971, I had access to two of these beasts - one that my school (jr. > high) owned and the other from the highschool across the street. We > dubbed tape-to-tape (-to-tape, probably) with 'live' camera inserts, > and made a documentary about the Apollo program to date. The dubs were > surprisingly true to the originals. In 1970, my high school had one of these, and used it to teach a mini course in video production/theatre, which I attended with the creator of the Church of the Subgenius. It was pretty crappy video quality by todays standards, but it was a real technological marvel to us at the time. Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lgleason@houston.rr.com