Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 27 May 2001 23:45:34 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 28 May 2001 00:01:46 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82250 starsabre@not.att.net (jt august) writes: > I would like to harp on the ommitted fact that the TI-99 had the first > version of Logo commercially released. I could be wrong, but I thought that Apple Logo shipped before the TI-99 even existed. ###### From: starsabre@not.att.net (jt august) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:59:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.43.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 991083575 12.75.43.211 (Mon, 28 May 2001 20:59:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:59:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82249 In article , Eric Smith wrote: > starsabre@not.att.net (jt august) writes: > > I would like to harp on the ommitted fact that the TI-99 had the first > > version of Logo commercially released. > > I could be wrong, but I thought that Apple Logo shipped before the > TI-99 even existed. I do know that the TI version was first, and that Atari and Apple versions followed because both those systems had school pressence where the TI did not, and schools did not want to buy TI's just for Logo. But I now am not sure if there wasn't a mainframe based Logo predating the TI version. Anyone know a URL to a Logo site that has a history on the language? -- jt august starsabre at att dot net Now doing business 24/7 24 hours a month 7 months a year ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic From: Michael Black Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Forwarded: by - (DeleGate/7.3.0) Lines: 52 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 22:03:06 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.100.62 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 991105333 198.168.100.62 (Mon, 28 May 2001 23:02:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:02:13 EDT Organization: UUNET Canada News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!gloria.cam.org!blackm00 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82258 On Mon, 28 May 2001, jt august wrote: > In article , Eric Smith > wrote: > > > starsabre@not.att.net (jt august) writes: > > > I would like to harp on the ommitted fact that the TI-99 had the first > > > version of Logo commercially released. > > > > I could be wrong, but I thought that Apple Logo shipped before the > > TI-99 even existed. > > I do know that the TI version was first, and that Atari and Apple versions > followed because both those systems had school pressence where the TI did > not, and schools did not want to buy TI's just for Logo. > > But I now am not sure if there wasn't a mainframe based Logo predating the > TI version. Anyone know a URL to a Logo site that has a history on the > language? > I'm fairly certain that Byte had an issue devoted to Logo; it would have been in the early eighties and perahps an August issue (because they did special language issues in AUgust). I must have the issue somewhere around, but who knows where. That would be a place I would look if I was hoping to find something about the origins of Logo. Seymour Papert's "Mindstorms" might have something, but I can't find an obvious entry in the index, and I've never gotten around to reading it. A websearch turns up this site: http://www.siue.edu/~jandris/HTMLDocuments/ANDRIS/logo.html and it says the language was developed in 1967. Earlier than I realized, but that does fit it showing up in that Rolling Stone article. Now, wasn't there a Texas Instrument mainframe that the TI99/4 was a smaller version of? If Logo first came out on the TI, then perhaps it had been developed on a TI mainframe. Certainly they weren't using a "personal computer" in 1967 (though perhaps they conceived the language but didn't implement it until the hardware became practical). That would explain Logo appearing on the TI99/4 first. Look towards MIT for an answer. Michael ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:26:34 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20010529192634.6878e7c1.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1247.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991158873 10107 194.134.203.228 (29 May 2001 17:54:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:54:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82224 On Mon, 28 May 2001 22:03:06 -0400 Michael Black wrote: MB> Now, wasn't there a Texas Instrument mainframe that the TI99/4 MB> was a smaller version of? If Logo first came out on the TI, There was a mini with a TTL bitslice (IIRC) implementation of the 9900 architecture. It would not have been as old as 1967 though, 1976 would be more like the timeframe. -- Many have tried to formulate rules for software development, we are guided by the ways in which they fail to work. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 42 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:34:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 991193684 24.91.12.32 (Tue, 29 May 2001 23:34:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:34:44 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82320 alt.sys.pdp10:5119 [Cross-posted to comp.lang.logo and alt.sys.pdp10] starsabre@not.att.net (jt august) writes: >But I now am not sure if there wasn't a mainframe based Logo predating the >TI version. Anyone know a URL to a Logo site that has a history on the >language? Google search for "Logo harvey papert history" quickly returns a FAQ at http://ekstern.alu.hist.no/~dennisgl/logo/logo-faq.html which says: 2: What was the genesis of Logo? According to Wally Feurzeig in his article in *Digital Deli*, 1984, Logo was named by him at BBN and Paul Wexelblat built the first turtle on the floor. The name of the article is Logo Lineage. In the article Seymour Papert was called in as a consultant on the functional characteristcs. [Linc, James Internet: Gowj @ novavax.nova.edu] Logo was developed at BBN in the 60's, Seymour was a consultant on the BBN project. The first implementation of what we now know and love as Logo, was written in LISP (surprise, huh?) on a PDP-1 (at BBN). Its name was "ghost". The PDP-10 (mainframe according to some definitions) version was written in assembler. Both machines were built with discrete components and well predate TI's Logo. As I mentioned elsewhere, I added Turtle support to the PDP-10 Logo for people at the University of Pittsburgh. I forget the exact year, but probably 1973 +/- 1. They got their code base from MIT or BB&N. Brian Harvey is very active in the Logo community and on comp.lang.logo and knows far more than I. (Hi Brian!) -Ric Werme -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 30 May 2001 19:47:13 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82333 In article , Michael Black wrote: >Now, wasn't there a Texas Instrument mainframe that the TI99/4 >was a smaller version of? If Logo first came out on the TI, I'd swear that there was a TI ad that claimed it used a subset of the PDP-11 instruction set. I've since been told that this isn't true, but I'm still pretty sure I saw the ad . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 30 May 2001 20:35:08 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9f3lhs$l7a$2@news.panix.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 991254908 21738 166.84.0.231 (30 May 2001 20:35:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2001 20:35:08 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82336 In article <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, Prof. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >I'd swear that there was a TI ad that claimed it used a subset >of the PDP-11 instruction set. I've since been told that this >isn't true, but I'm still pretty sure I saw the ad . . . I think it had index registers stored in memory, which is an architectural detail of the PDP-8 and not the PDP-11, though I don't remember anything else about the 99/4. (I didn't use assembler on other DEC machines though I assume the PDP-12 and perhaps the PDP-5 had memory based autoincrement memory locations that look like index registers.) -- After the last of 16 mounting screws has been removed from an access cover, it will be discovered that the wrong access cover has been removed. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:07:34 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20010530230734.5d70400f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9f3lhs$l7a$2@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p221.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991258869 77269 194.134.200.149 (30 May 2001 21:41:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:41:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82365 On 30 May 2001 20:35:08 GMT never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: MR> I think it had index registers stored in memory, which is an MR> architectural detail of the PDP-8 and not the PDP-11, though I don't MR> remember anything else about the 99/4. Certainly the 9900 architecture had registers in memory, IIRC there were three 'real' registers the program counter, workspace pointer (points to the base of the 16 in memory registers) and (I think) a stack pointer. The cute part was that you could set the workspace pointer to change register sets. -- Many have tried to formulate rules for software development, we are guided by the ways in which they fail to work. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 31 May 2001 00:30:01 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6u66eiqxli.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991261805 1492 10.0.3.2 (30 May 2001 22:30:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2001 22:30:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82390 hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: > In article , > Michael Black wrote: > > >Now, wasn't there a Texas Instrument mainframe that the TI99/4 > >was a smaller version of? If Logo first came out on the TI, AFAIK it went like this: Processor architecture: 99 Mini (not mainframe): 990 Microprocessor: 9900 > I'd swear that there was a TI ad that claimed it used a subset > of the PDP-11 instruction set. I've since been told that this > isn't true, but I'm still pretty sure I saw the ad . . . It is somewhat similar. Both are 16bit data, 16bit address, byte addressing, block of general purpose registers, orthogonal instruction set, program counter and stack pointer in the general purpose registers, stacking is simply store(-reg) and load(reg+), jump is simply move const to one reg. Differences are: - PDP-11 hat 8 registers TI-99 had 16 registers - PDP-11 had SP=R6 and PC=R7, both given by CALL instruction TI-99 had two 4 bit regs to select which GP regs are SP and PC (!) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 31 May 2001 00:33:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6u3d9mqxg9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9f3lhs$l7a$2@news.panix.com> <20010530230734.5d70400f.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991261992 1492 10.0.3.2 (30 May 2001 22:33:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2001 22:33:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82391 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On 30 May 2001 20:35:08 GMT > never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: > > MR> I think it had index registers stored in memory, which is an > MR> architectural detail of the PDP-8 and not the PDP-11, though I don't > MR> remember anything else about the 99/4. > > Certainly the 9900 architecture had registers in memory, The 4bit GP selection was used as offset to the workspace pointer register and then memory was accessed. > IIRC there > were three 'real' registers the program counter, workspace pointer (points > to the base of the 16 in memory registers) and (I think) a stack pointer. AFAIK there were in the 9980 2 16bit registers: - 16 bit workspace pointer - 8+4+4bit flags + SR select + PC select The 2 selects selected which of the 16 GP registers were used for SP and PC. > The cute part was that you could set the workspace pointer to change register > sets. Yes. Gave damn fast thread switching. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 31 May 01 07:54:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVafj7Ee1rMscap0DWsBUHpeavYmdbcqCHrg5+ZqQWVKe/b6sorDedFz X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2001 10:27:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-244 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82421 alt.sys.pdp10:5127 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >Ric Werme writes: >> DEC was sort of the Apple of their day; they never had more than a tiny >> sliver of the computer-sales pie, > >Huh? For a non-trivial length of time they were the second-largest >computer company in the world! Not in the 70s and just for a while in the 80s. When two of the big seven merged DEC became third. I don't remember when that happened. > >Toward the end of the eighties they lost that position because they >were far too slow to adapt from the minicomputer world, where they were >king of the hill, to the microcomputer world, where they offered too >little too late. > The lost that postiition because they kept pissing off their customers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 30 May 2001 22:59:30 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 34 Message-ID: <9f3u0i$o59$1@news.panix.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <6u66eiqxli.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 991263570 24745 166.84.0.227 (30 May 2001 22:59:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2001 22:59:30 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82408 In article <6u66eiqxli.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Processor architecture: 99 >Mini (not mainframe): 990 >Microprocessor: 9900 [snip] >It is somewhat similar. Both are 16bit data, 16bit address, byte >addressing, block of general purpose registers, orthogonal instruction >set, program counter and stack pointer in the general purpose >registers, stacking is simply store(-reg) and load(reg+), jump is >simply move const to one reg. > >Differences are: > >- PDP-11 hat 8 registers These are cpu based. > TI-99 had 16 registers These are memory based. >- PDP-11 had SP=R6 and PC=R7, both given by CALL instruction R0-R5 can also be used as stack pointers. SP can be used as data, though I wouldn't recommend it! > TI-99 had two 4 bit regs to select which GP regs are SP and PC (!) Some (all?) PDP-11's have supervisor and user mode register sets. I don't know about protected modes on the TI. -- People usually get what's coming to them ... unless it's been mailed. ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 30 May 2001 19:36:10 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3b159172$0$94283$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9f3lhs$l7a$2@news.panix.com> <20010530230734.5d70400f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82445 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > Certainly the 9900 architecture had registers in memory, IIRC there >were three 'real' registers the program counter, workspace pointer (points >to the base of the 16 in memory registers) and (I think) a stack pointer. >The cute part was that you could set the workspace pointer to change register >sets. Yep, allowing primitive hardware context-switching. The later 9995 kept the "256 registers" (analogous to 6502-style zero page) in onboard RAM rather than in system RAM (I think the 99/4A keeps its set at $8e00 or something). -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 47 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:06:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 991274797 24.91.12.32 (Wed, 30 May 2001 22:06:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:06:37 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82486 alt.sys.pdp10:5133 Ric Werme writes: >[Cross-posted to comp.lang.logo and alt.sys.pdp10] Brian's reply seems only to have made it to comp.lang.logo. He posted there: Ric Werme writes: >Brian Harvey is very active in the Logo community and on comp.lang.logo >and knows far more than I. (Hi Brian!) I know about the BBN work only second-hand. When I met up with Logo it was at the MIT lab that Papert set up post-BBN, running on a PDP-11 under a homebrew operating system called SITS (Small ITS, named after ITS, the homebrew operating system on the AI Lab PDP-10 upstairs.) (For those who aren't ancient computer experts, the PDP-___ numbers don't reflect the size of the machine. The PDP-6 and PDP-10 were the large DEC computers; the PDP-1, PDP-8, and PDP-11 were the small (mini-) computers. The -10 was an enhanced reimplementation of the -6, but the three minicomputers were all quite different from each other. (If you're wondering about the -2, -3, -5, and -9, they were designed but never built in large quantities, I think.) DEC was sort of the Apple of their day; they never had more than a tiny sliver of the computer-sales pie, but most of the great ideas can be traced back to those machines, especially the PDP-1 and the PDP-6/10, especially the ones at MIT and Stanford. For example, TECO, the first programmable text editor, was a product of the Tech Model Railroad Club on the MIT PDP-1. I wish I knew more about the details of the BBN work so I could address with first-hand information the anger some people feel whenever Seymour claims to have invented Logo. (What I know for sure is that he was part of a group organized at BBN by Wally Feurzeig, and that both Seymour and Wally made important contributions there, as did a bunch of other people. And that Logo today is quite different from the earliest BBN version, so there's a sense in which Logo was reinvented later, which is one thing that complicates the question.) Anyway, the glory days of the MIT Logo Lab, including that no-statistics proposal we've been discussing on another thread, was built around the PDP-11 Logo implementation. This started before there were microcomputers, let alone Logo for micros. Both the TI-99/4 Logo and the MIT Logo for the Apple (the origin of what's now Terrapin Logo) came out of this group after the early research using the PDP-11. Hal Abelson was, I think, the main person pushing the development of implementations that people outside MIT could actually use (meaning both the TI and the Apple projects). -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 30 May 2001 19:37:49 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 30 May 2001 19:54:32 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82464 alt.sys.pdp10:5131 Ric Werme writes: > DEC was sort of the Apple of their day; they never had more than a tiny > sliver of the computer-sales pie, Huh? For a non-trivial length of time they were the second-largest computer company in the world! Toward the end of the eighties they lost that position because they were far too slow to adapt from the minicomputer world, where they were king of the hill, to the microcomputer world, where they offered too little too late. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 31 May 2001 20:44:43 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6uelt5l5no.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <6u66eiqxli.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9f3u0i$o59$1@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991334684 373 10.0.3.2 (31 May 2001 18:44:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2001 18:44:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82496 never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) writes: > In article <6u66eiqxli.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > >Differences are: > > > >- PDP-11 hat 8 registers > > These are cpu based. > > > TI-99 had 16 registers > > These are memory based. That also. > >- PDP-11 had SP=R6 and PC=R7, both given by CALL instruction > > R0-R5 can also be used as stack pointers. SP can be used as data, though > I wouldn't recommend it! All can be used as stack pointers. But _the_ stack, which CALL will use to store the old PC/R7 on is allways R6. The others can only be data stacks. So R6 is the canonical stack. The TI had no such fixed stack at all. > > TI-99 had two 4 bit regs to select which GP regs are SP and PC (!) > > Some (all?) PDP-11's have supervisor and user mode register sets. I > don't know about protected modes on the TI. Never looked at that part of it either. The 9980 in the TI99/4A had none. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 31 May 2001 20:52:23 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6ubso9l5aw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991335145 373 10.0.3.2 (31 May 2001 18:52:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2001 18:52:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82497 alt.sys.pdp10:5135 Ric Werme writes: > (For those who > aren't ancient computer experts, the PDP-___ numbers don't reflect the size > of the machine. The PDP-6 and PDP-10 were the large DEC computers; the > PDP-1, PDP-8, and PDP-11 were the small (mini-) computers. The -10 was > an enhanced reimplementation of the -6, but the three minicomputers were all > quite different from each other. (If you're wondering about the -2, -3, > -5, and -9, they were designed but never built in large quantities, I think.) 2 and 3: did not exist, or possibly only engineering samples 5 was the original 8, same relationship to it as 6 to 10 9 is part of the second 18bit architecture. Here a rough listing: 12bit: PDP-5/PDP-8 and (LINC/)LINC-8/PDP-12 18bit: (TX-0/)PDP-1 and PDP-4/PDP-7/PDP-9/PDP-15 16bit: PDP-11 32bit: VAX 36bit: PDP-6/PDP-10 Bracketed machines are non-DEC machines DEC improved on. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 03:45:04 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.56 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 991361563 207.153.6.56 (Thu, 31 May 2001 21:12:43 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:12:43 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82513 alt.sys.pdp10:5138 Ric Werme wrote: > > I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years afterward my > resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, it's not even PDP-11. > Or even 8080/Z80. Fortunately I had a decent C compiler (Manx) that generated > pseudo code for an interpreter or compiled code for native execution. Well no more dread full than any 8 bit uP made - 6800 8080 z80 8088 and the few other chips left out are simply not general purpose computers. While they made good controller processors as general purpose CPU's all are limited to 64k memory and data larger than a byte are a pain to program. The 6809 was a bit better but lost out to the 68000. Ben. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:06:25 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20010531200625.6cf3d9a6.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9f3lhs$l7a$2@news.panix.com> <20010530230734.5d70400f.steveo@eircom.net> <6u3d9mqxg9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p114.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991332507 72054 194.134.200.78 (31 May 2001 18:08:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:08:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82609 On 31 May 2001 00:33:10 +0200 Neil Franklin wrote: NF> AFAIK there were in the 9980 2 16bit registers: NF> NF> - 16 bit workspace pointer NF> - 8+4+4bit flags + SR select + PC select Damn! they kept the program counter out there as well! I had forgotten that detail. That was one sweet architecture IMHO. . -- Many have tried to formulate rules for software development, we are guided by the ways in which they fail to work. ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:07:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9f6fak$1aji$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: raewyn.paradise.net.nz 991346836 43634 203.96.144.16 (31 May 2001 22:07:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:07:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news01.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82620 alt.sys.pdp10:5157 In article <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >>Huh? For a non-trivial length of time they were the second-largest >>computer company in the world! > >Not in the 70s and just for a while in the 80s. When two of >the big seven merged DEC became third. I don't remember when >that happened. Burroughs & Sperry merged to form Unisys in the mid 80s, becoming the second largest ahead of DEC, but I thought that position was only temporary; both Sperry and Burroughs were well past their use-by dates at the time of the merger, and went from being two declining companies to one company that was bigger but declining just as quickly, while the mid 80s were when DEC looked unassailable. So DEC was soon able reclaim the hill before getting kicked from below by the micro folks. The 7 dwarfs never really threatened DEC. -- don ###### From: Bernie Cosell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:29:50 -0400 Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers Message-ID: <0vgdhtg6guv3shhtv520firf652e1adlu3@news.supernews.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82586 alt.sys.pdp10:5142 Ric Werme wrote: } Ric Werme writes: } } >[Cross-posted to comp.lang.logo and alt.sys.pdp10] } } Brian's reply seems only to have made it to comp.lang.logo. He posted there: } } Ric Werme writes: } >Brian Harvey is very active in the Logo community and on comp.lang.logo } >and knows far more than I. (Hi Brian!) } } I know about the BBN work only second-hand. When I met up with Logo it was } at the MIT lab that Papert set up post-BBN, running on a PDP-11 under a } homebrew operating system called SITS (Small ITS, named after ITS, the } homebrew operating system on the AI Lab PDP-10 upstairs.) ... I was closer than that [I'm surprised Paul, who did a lot of the work on logo for Wally and at least occasionally hangs out here, hasn't said anything] --- Seymour Papert [MIT] and Wally Feurzeig [BBN, education dept] worked on logo in something like 1967 at BBN [I never got straight if Seymour was also working on a copy at MIT at the time or if the copy they were using at BBN was the only one]. It ran on our PDP-1d and had some kind of current-loop TTY kludge for controlling the turtle. The 1d was running a timesharing system at the time just called "Exec III" [duh -- it was the third PDP-1 timesharing system we had done]. The 1d work was mostly funded by the NIH as a research project in collaboration with Mass General Hospital, but other folk [e.g., Wally's group, Calvin mooers used it as his [primary, I think] platform for developing TRAC] used it for this and that... I'm actually surprised to hear that Logo still survives..:o) /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:28:42 -0400 Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts3-16.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts3-16.iglou.com Message-ID: <3b16d32e_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 991351598 lou-ts3-16.iglou.com (31 May 2001 19:26:38 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.255.239.122 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82511 alt.sys.pdp10:5137 wrote in message news:9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > Eric Smith wrote: > >Ric Werme writes: > >> DEC was sort of the Apple of their day; they never had more than a tiny > >> sliver of the computer-sales pie, > > > >Huh? For a non-trivial length of time they were the second-largest > >computer company in the world! > > Not in the 70s and just for a while in the 80s. When two of > the big seven merged DEC became third. I don't remember when > that happened. Wasn't that when Sperry-Univac merged with Burroughs and became Unisys? 1979? Maybe '81? -dq ###### From: rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b16d32e_1@news.iglou.com> Organization: Vector Internet Services, Inc. Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:34:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 991352047 209.98.98.8 (Thu, 31 May 2001 18:34:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:34:07 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-xfer.siscom.net!209.98.98.64.MISMATCH!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!rsteiner Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82629 alt.sys.pdp10:5160 In article <3b16d32e_1@news.iglou.com>, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >Wasn't that when Sperry-Univac merged with Burroughs and became >Unisys? 1979? Maybe '81? 1986, the same year the Unisys 2200-series was introduced (I think). Two years before I started working there. -- -Rich Steiner >>>---> rsteiner@visi.com >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4! The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:34:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 991352065 24.91.12.32 (Thu, 31 May 2001 19:34:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:34:25 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82646 alt.sys.pdp10:5163 >In article , > Eric Smith wrote: >>Ric Werme writes: >>> DEC was sort of the Apple of their day; they never had more than a tiny >>> sliver of the computer-sales pie, >> >>Huh? For a non-trivial length of time they were the second-largest >>computer company in the world! I think the reference was more in line with "novel things came out of both DEC and Apple". The timeframe Brian is referring to spans the PDP-1 to PDP-10 (KA-10 at that). PDP-11 and VAX were in the future. Also, both companies spawned very, very strong supporters. In Apple's case the Apple ][ fans were rabid to the point of gushing over the power supply and the 6502 uP. Apple was the leader in personal computers until the PC and clones came out. I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years afterward my resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, it's not even PDP-11. Or even 8080/Z80. Fortunately I had a decent C compiler (Manx) that generated pseudo code for an interpreter or compiled code for native execution. -Ric Werme -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 37 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:41:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 991366902 24.91.12.32 (Thu, 31 May 2001 23:41:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:41:42 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82645 alt.sys.pdp10:5162 Ben Franchuk writes: >Ric Werme wrote: >> >> I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years afterward my >> resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, it's not even PDP-11. >> Or even 8080/Z80. Fortunately I had a decent C compiler (Manx) that generated >> pseudo code for an interpreter or compiled code for native execution. >Well no more dread full than any 8 bit uP made - 6800 8080 z80 8088 >and the few other chips left out are simply not general purpose computers. I vehemently disagree. Much of my 6502 code was split in two - the first listing page set stuff up in page 0 locations (sorta PDP-8ish, I think) and the second listing page did the real work. I never had to do that with my Z80 work. My all time favorite 8 bit uP is the Zilog Z8. While it was intended for smallish applications, its register file was general purpose so you could do things like: add r1,r4 adc r2,r5 adc r3,r6 and get a 24 bit sum in three instructions. 32 bits in 4. If the application could get by with only 256 bytes of RAM, the part had a masked ROM option so you could get program and data inside the chip and configure most of the DIP pins to be I/O. I saw a lot of Z8s inside modems. I used it a couple dot matrix printers. I never did any 6809 programming and only a little 68020, so I can't compare those well. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <6ubso9l5aw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 31 May 2001 22:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 31 May 2001 22:26:06 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82621 alt.sys.pdp10:5158 Neil Franklin writes: > 12bit: PDP-5/PDP-8 and (LINC/)LINC-8/PDP-12 > 18bit: (TX-0/)PDP-1 and PDP-4/PDP-7/PDP-9/PDP-15 > 16bit: PDP-11 > 32bit: VAX > 36bit: PDP-6/PDP-10 > > Bracketed machines are non-DEC machines DEC improved on. DEC actually did manufacture original LINC machines, although others did as well. So it's not just a machine "DEC improved on". ###### From: Timothy Stark Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:41:58 -0000 Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82610 alt.sys.pdp10:5147 In alt.sys.pdp10 Ric Werme wrote: > Also, both companies spawned very, very strong supporters. In Apple's case > the Apple ][ fans were rabid to the point of gushing over the power > supply and the 6502 uP. Apple was the leader in personal computers until > the PC and clones came out. > I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years afterward my > resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, it's not even PDP-11. > Or even 8080/Z80. Fortunately I had a decent C compiler (Manx) that generated > pseudo code for an interpreter or compiled code for native execution. Yeah. In '80s, I used many different computers. DECsystem-10, VAX, IBM PC/XT/AT, Apple ][ series, TI-99/4A, Commodore 64/128, and Amiga 500 and 1200. For TI-99/4A, I know TMS9900 assembly language so well because it was very easy to write 99/4A assembly programs. Now I have PC99 emulator for x86 machines. I wrote many assembly programs for 99/4A in 80's. For Commodore 64/128, it uses customized 6502 CPU with extended memory access. It is harder to write assembly programs because its limitation is 8-bit registers and (A, X, and Y registers only). For Amiga 500/1200, it uses 68000 microprocessor. It uses 32-bit registers. That is much easier to write assembly programs but I have not write them yet because operating system calls are more complex... For VAX system, it uses native assembly language. It looks like TMS9900 assembly language but some big difference. It was easy to write them. I wrote some small assembly programs for my assembly language programming course at Gallaudet University. I passed the course and got A. -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 1 Jun 2001 09:52:16 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3b17ab90$0$78779$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82581 alt.sys.pdp10:5140 References trimmed. In alt.sys.pdp10 Ric Werme wrote: >I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years afterward my >resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, it's not even PDP-11. Why dreadful? It was never intended to be a mainframe or mini-comp CPU, so it's kind of an apples-oranges comparison to stack it against a PDP. It has a limited register set and non-orthogonal instruction set. On the other hand, fast zero page is almost as good as 256 free registers (254 if you're using a Commodore-modified 6502 like the 6509/6510/7501/8502), instructions execute in much fewer cycles (compare with a Z80) thanks to efficient design and its neat prefetch architecture, and while the instruction set is quite simplistic it is also easy to understand and manipulate. The 6502 more than adequately filled its niche as a low-cost, simple uP core, and its functionality was definitely enough for that purpose. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:23:14 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 26 Message-ID: <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0900.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991414812 84852 194.134.202.137 (1 Jun 2001 17:00:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:00:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82591 alt.sys.pdp10:5144 On Tue, 29 May 2001 03:45:04 -0600 Ben Franchuk wrote: BF> Well no more dread full than any 8 bit uP made - 6800 8080 z80 8088 No the 6502 was worse than *all* of the above in many important ways, Most 8 bit micros were 8 bit ALUs with 16 bit extensions for addresses. The 6502 was the purest 8 bit device I ever saw, almost qualifies as an 8 bit RISC design. BF> The 6809 was a bit better but lost out to the 68000. The 6809 was a *lot* better than the others but really too late for the 8 bit market. According to one Motorolan at the time it was considered a practice exercise by the 68000 developers, this was said to a meeting of the CU Processor Group at which the spec sheets for the 68000 were displayed with 'Motorola Company Confidential' still blazoned across them and an explanation that they were due to come off the list the following week (he was officially there to talk about the 6809). -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 01 Jun 2001 23:24:02 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 72 Message-ID: <6uu21zki6k.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f3io1$23c8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <9f3lhs$l7a$2@news.panix.com> <20010530230734.5d70400f.steveo@eircom.net> <6u3d9mqxg9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20010531200625.6cf3d9a6.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991430645 527 10.0.3.2 (1 Jun 2001 21:24:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2001 21:24:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82652 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > NF> AFAIK there were in the 9980 2 16bit registers: > NF> > NF> - 16 bit workspace pointer > NF> - 8+4+4bit flags + SR select + PC select > > Damn! they kept the program counter out there as well! I had forgotten > that detail. AFAIK. Possibly there may have been some PC cache in there. In those days micro computer journalists would have not even recognized the word. > That was one sweet architecture IMHO. Nice processor, marred by what was around it. Particularly in the 99/4A. - it is a 16 bit processor, wow, fast! - registers are external - program counter is one of them externals (or cached?) - it only has 256 bytes of direct addressable RAM, 32 of which are the registers (plus Basic and Cartridge ROMs) - ROM has an interpreted virtual machine in it, GPL (graphics programming language) - Basic is written in GPL, is in ROM as VM code - it has an video controller with its own 16k RAM, only mapped as IO RAM only accessable via video controller registers - Basic programs and variables (anything that does not fit in left over 242 bytes of RAM) is stored in the video controllers RAM (only 6kByte used for picture, IIRC) - there exists an 32k direct RAM, as extension option, Basic does not use it, Assembler does, but needs also Floppy option, 3 times price of base computer Where did all that 16bit speed go? No wonder it bombed. > hard a 64 bit version would be in FPGA>. 16bit original or 32bit extended: no problem, just a SMOP[1] [1] small matter of programming, OK lots of work :-) 64bit: finding that wide FPGAs becomes expensive Most cheap (read 2-digit $ numbers) chip families seem to end at about 50bit[2] depth (that is data path plus any control logic parallel to it, that you do not want to sacrifice data path length for). So you are in 3-digit $ territory for 64bit. [2] I an using the largest of the Xilinx Spartan-II family, 56bits wide, for my PDP-10 KI-10 clone. Alteras Flex1K end somewhere around there also (I don't have exact width number). Atmels AT40 end with 48bits. Also the carry mechanisms are fast for 16bit, OK for 32 and slow for 64, so you need to sacrifice more data path length for faster carry methods (default is ripple carry at about 0.5-3ns per bit, Xilinx ~0.5ns, Altera ~1.ns, Atmel ~3ns). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 01 Jun 2001 23:33:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6ur8x3khrd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <6ubso9l5aw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991431191 527 10.0.3.2 (1 Jun 2001 21:33:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2001 21:33:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82653 alt.sys.pdp10:5164 Eric Smith writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > 12bit: PDP-5/PDP-8 and (LINC/)LINC-8/PDP-12 > > 18bit: (TX-0/)PDP-1 and PDP-4/PDP-7/PDP-9/PDP-15 > > 16bit: PDP-11 > > 32bit: VAX > > 36bit: PDP-6/PDP-10 > > > > Bracketed machines are non-DEC machines DEC improved on. > > DEC actually did manufacture original LINC machines, although others > did as well. So it's not just a machine "DEC improved on". I was actually using non-DEC as non DEC designed in this case. AFAIK (ACM article[1] by LINC designer[2]) LINC was an MIT Lincoln Labs design. The first were hand made by their users(!) in an LL workshop. Later DEC produced them in series. [1] A History of Personal Workstations, Adele Goldberg (ed), Addison Wesley, ISBN 01-201-11259-0 - totally recommended "The LINC was early and small", page 345 [2] his remark about one user (an neurosurgeon) having trouble adjusting an potentiometer because it was "too fiddly" is really scaring. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 01 Jun 2001 23:43:34 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991431815 527 10.0.3.2 (1 Jun 2001 21:43:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2001 21:43:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82654 alt.sys.pdp10:5165 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On Tue, 29 May 2001 03:45:04 -0600 > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > BF> The 6809 was a bit better but lost out to the 68000. Lost out to 8086 (and specially 8088) actually. That would be the relevant price/power competitor. 68k had a _large_ price disadvantage (both chip and its required external circuits) in those days. > The 6809 was a *lot* better than the others but really too late for the > 8 bit market. Given that 6809 was an 8/16bit design not unlike 8088 in power, its main problem was the total lack of an memory managment system. While the 8088s 64k segments in 1M without limit registers get cursed, they were a lot better than nothing and only 64k physical memory without any mapping. Having the 6809 do 16bit address calculations hi-byte first, then lo-byte, then carry in 3rd cycle (yes, really!) did not help either. P.S: my first home computer was a 6809. I still like the chip. Nice simple and somewhat orthogonal architecture. Before that I had used an Z80 at shool. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:44:18 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.53 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 991457510 207.153.6.53 (Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:51:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:51:50 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82663 alt.sys.pdp10:5167 Neil Franklin wrote: > Having the 6809 do 16bit address calculations hi-byte first, then > lo-byte, then carry in 3rd cycle (yes, really!) did not help either. The other big problem is the alu path in the 6809 is still 8 bits. The Hitachi 6309 developed a 6809 clone with extra features to the instruction set could not document the extra features as it would void the license with motorola. > P.S: my first home computer was a 6809. I still like the chip. Nice > simple and somewhat orthogonal architecture. Before that I had used an > Z80 at shool. I think the limitation will all most all cpu's with 64Kb of memory and byte addressing is that the primary instruction word size was 8 bits. This makes a usable instruction set very hard to design. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Updated - Now with schematics. ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:51:39 -0400 Lines: 19 Organization: The Estopinal Group X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.theestopinalgroup.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.theestopinalgroup.com Message-ID: <3b17f25e_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 991425118 mailgate.theestopinalgroup.com (1 Jun 2001 15:51:58 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: teg X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.255.235.119 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82664 alt.sys.pdp10:5168 "Ric Werme" wrote in message news:W9ER6.18646$zl5.4982092@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > Ben Franchuk writes: > > I saw a lot of Z8s inside modems. I used it a couple dot matrix printers. I had an Irwin 40MB QIC drive that was DOA on acquistion. A check of the address pins on the on-board Z8 showed it didn't appear to be running. One engineering sample later, I had a working tape drive. That was in '87, and I couldn't find a distributor who was still carrying them, but fortunately, the Zilog engineers had samples to hand out. -dq ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 1 Jun 2001 15:40:06 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3b17fd08$0$42009$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82695 alt.sys.pdp10:5172 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >>Well no more dread full than any 8 bit uP made - 6800 8080 z80 8088 >No the 6502 was worse than *all* of the above in many important ways, >Most 8 bit micros were 8 bit ALUs with 16 bit extensions for addresses. The >6502 was the purest 8 bit device I ever saw, almost qualifies as an 8 bit RISC >design. Well, it does have a 16-bit address bus. I'm not sure what's with all the 6502-series slamming. It was never *meant* to be a big bruiser uP -- it's a fast little 8-bit CPU designed for low-cost applications. It did its job well. I can see concern over having a 6510 running a mainframe, since it's less well-suited to this than, say, a 9900, but that's not what it was designed for in the first place. Plus, the 6502 is a very fast CPU as well, which was no doubt a direct consequence of its simplistic design. Most opcodes run in around three cycles -- at worst six. This is not true of other popular designs like the Z80 or x86. So simplicity has advantages -- a chip that does Everything and The Kitchen Sink is bigger, slower, and more power-hungry. It's nice to have the choice. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 22:38:20 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <991435100snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 991477199 mail2news:21618 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82740 alt.sys.pdp10:5184 In article <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> steveo@eircom.net "Steve O'Hara-Smith" writes: > On Tue, 29 May 2001 03:45:04 -0600 > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > BF> The 6809 was a bit better but lost out to the 68000. > > The 6809 was a *lot* better than the others but really too late for the > 8 bit market. I always considered the addressing modes of the 6809 to be somewhat VAXish in their versatility. It was *definitely* the finest 8-bit architecture. But as you say, too late. (A colleague dug out a Dragon 32 the other day; CMIIW, but wasn't this a 6809-based "home computer"?) > According to one Motorolan at the time it was considered a practice > exercise by the 68000 developers, this was said to a meeting of the CU > Processor Group at which the spec sheets for the 68000 were displayed with > 'Motorola Company Confidential' still blazoned across them and an explanation > that they were due to come off the list the following week (he was officially > there to talk about the 6809). Indeed, the architectures are most definitely comparable. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Paul Guertin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 12:05:04 +0900 Organization: Amalgamated Karma Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b17ab90$0$78779$45beb828@newscene.com> Reply-To: pg@sff.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p-278.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82696 alt.sys.pdp10:5173 Cameron Kaiser wrote: > In alt.sys.pdp10 Ric Werme wrote: > > > >6502 assembler > > It has a limited register set and non-orthogonal instruction set. On the > other hand, fast zero page is almost as good as 256 free registers The most natural way to do something on a 6502 often involves self-modifying code, as in the .MOD line below. Whether that's a reason to like or dislike the 6502 is not entirely clear. LDX #0 LDA #1 .LOOP STA POWTBL,X STA .MOD+1 ; .MOD STX LOGTBL ;STX LOGTBL,A STA TMP ASL EOR TMP BCC .SKIP EOR #$1B .SKIP INX BNE .LOOP STX LOGTBL+1 ;FIX LOG(1) = 0 For bonus points: what does this code do, and can you guess what larger algorithm it is part of? Paul Guertin pg@sff.net ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:32:27 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 19 Message-ID: <20010602103227.1af9178e.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b17fd08$0$42009$45beb828@newscene.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p258.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991470842 18698 194.134.200.186 (2 Jun 2001 08:34:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:34:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82710 alt.sys.pdp10:5176 On 1 Jun 2001 15:40:06 -0500 Cameron Kaiser wrote: CK> I'm not sure what's with all the 6502-series slamming. It was never *meant* CK> to be a big bruiser uP -- it's a fast little 8-bit CPU designed for low-cost Memories of writing assembler for it are associated with severe headache. CK> Plus, the 6502 is a very fast CPU as well, which was no doubt a direct CK> consequence of its simplistic design. Most opcodes run in around three This of course is what made the pain worthwhile, once you had worked round the awkward bits the result ran quickly. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 From: htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots (Chris Smith) Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b17ab90$0$78779$45beb828@newscene.com> Organization: The act or process of organizing or being organized Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:41:27 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!cabal11.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!egsner!stoneboro!htimsc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82707 alt.sys.pdp10:5175 Paul Guertin writes: | For bonus points: what does this code do, and can you guess | what larger algorithm it is part of? That would be the init routine for multiplying and dividing in GF(256) using logs and antilogs, Bob, possibly part of a possibly RS error corrector. ###### From: Paul Guertin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:10:19 +0900 Organization: Amalgamated Karma Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b17ab90$0$78779$45beb828@newscene.com> Reply-To: pg@sff.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p-396.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82699 alt.sys.pdp10:5174 htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots (Chris Smith) wrote: > Paul Guertin writes: > > | For bonus points: what does this code do, and can you guess > | what larger algorithm it is part of? > > That would be the init routine for multiplying and dividing in GF(256) > using logs and antilogs, Bob, We have a winner. .sirhC ,snoitalutargnoC > possibly part of a possibly RS error corrector. Good and totally plausible guess. It's actually from an implementation of Rijndael (http://csrc.nist.gov/encryption/aes/rijndael/) I'm working on. Paul Guertin pg@sff.net ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 02 Jun 2001 21:20:59 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991509660 478 10.0.3.2 (2 Jun 2001 19:21:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 2001 19:21:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82748 alt.sys.pdp10:5186 Ben Franchuk writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > Having the 6809 do 16bit address calculations hi-byte first, then > > lo-byte, then carry in 3rd cycle (yes, really!) did not help either. > > The other big problem is the alu path in the 6809 is still 8 bits. > The Hitachi 6309 developed a 6809 clone with extra features > to the instruction set could not document the extra features as > it would void the license with motorola. Damn shitty intellectual property laws. See also .sig > > P.S: my first home computer was a 6809. I still like the chip. Nice > > simple and somewhat orthogonal architecture. Before that I had used an > > Z80 at shool. > > I think the limitation will all most all cpu's with 64Kb of memory > and byte addressing is that the primary instruction word size was 8 bits. > This makes a usable instruction set very hard to design. At least for first-time designers, which is what the 1970s micro designers were. I remember the Inmos Transputers as wonderfully done 8bit instruction machines. A T800 ran at 20MHz, reading 4 instructions at a time from its 32bit memory and so running 20MIPS despite an slow bus (min 3 clock cycles per access) and no cache. My board used slow 120ns DRAMs, added 2 wait cycles, and still it did 16MIPS. Not to forget 2.3MFlops (32bit IEEE, for 64bit it was 1.5MFlops) in an single 250'000 transistor chip in 1988. And 4 bidirectional DMA driven 10Mbit serial lines. And 4kByte of single-cycle on-chip SRAM. If I were back in the 1970s per time machine I would make an T212 Transputer with external 8bit bus and without internal RAM and links. Should be possible with Z80 level technology. And faster. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 02 Jun 2001 21:24:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6ug0diit2d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <991435100snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991509851 478 10.0.3.2 (2 Jun 2001 19:24:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 2001 19:24:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82749 alt.sys.pdp10:5187 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > But as you say, too late. (A colleague dug out a Dragon 32 the other > day; CMIIW, but wasn't this a 6809-based "home computer"?) Dragon 32 was a 6809 running at 0.89MHz. That was my first home computer. Still have it, still runs, video output is broken, no colours any more. Tandy CoCo was basically the same design, just different expansion module pinout (it had -12V, Dragon only +12V) and different tokens in its Basic, so tokenised code would not be transferable. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:02:24 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.42 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 991512551 207.153.6.42 (Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:09:11 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:09:11 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82754 alt.sys.pdp10:5189 Neil Franklin wrote: > > At least for first-time designers, which is what the 1970s micro > designers were. No it is just 8 bits are too small for a comfortable CPU design. Assume 4 registers - AC , Stack , Index and Pc are needed in modern designs as well as byte/word operations. A very quick design. 0 m i i w op - - - - - - - - ac operation 1 0 i i m a op - - - - - - - - index/stack operations 1 1 x x x x x x - - - - - - - - other operations m 0 auto increment 1 indexed 1 byte offset i index 0=ac,1=index,2=stack,3=pc W 0=byte,1 word a 0=index,1=stack op add,sub,cmp,and,or,xor,ld,st op add,cmp,ld,st Where did all my op code bits go? > If I were back in the 1970s per time machine I would make an T212 > Transputer with external 8bit bus and without internal RAM and > links. Should be possible with Z80 level technology. And faster. Who knows! but then again I think my 12 bit cpu is better than any 8 bit cpu! ( even the 6809 ). Speaking of 6809, I think the one thing that killed the 6809 as useful cpu is that it was targeted for Games. Look at the Radio Shack Color Computer - had it had a real serial port and a real floppy/HD expansion bus the 8 bit micros could of lasted a few more years. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Updated - Now with schematics. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:36:19 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: <3oibf9.1v3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <991435100snz@dsl.co.uk> <6ug0diit2d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991514504 nnrp-02:13865 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82763 alt.sys.pdp10:5192 According to Neil Franklin : > Dragon 32 was a 6809 running at 0.89MHz. That was my first home > computer. Still have it, still runs, video output is broken, no > colours any more. 894KHz IIRC. :) Mine's still in its original box, taking up space in my parents' loft. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 2 Jun 2001 21:06:46 GMT Organization: Around here? Lines: 48 Message-ID: <9fbkh6$dr4$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b17ab90$0$78779$45beb828@newscene.com> <3B17BD2A.F08DBD7A@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-47-243.btinternet.com User-Agent: Xnews/4.04.17tea Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82816 Arthur Krewat wrote in <3B17BD2A.F08DBD7A@bartek.dontspamme.net>: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> References trimmed. >> >> In alt.sys.pdp10 Ric Werme wrote: >>> I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years >>> afterward my resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, >>> it's not even PDP-11. >> >> Why dreadful? It was never intended to be a mainframe or mini-comp >> CPU, so it's kind of an apples-oranges comparison to stack it against >> a PDP. >> >> > > My sentiment exactly. > > I did an extensive amount of programming with 6502's, both Commodore 64 > (like TECO running on a serial line to my Hazeltine), and Atari game > systems. > > While simplistic, it did it's job very well. > Purely by coincidence...last month I went back to a place I last worked in ten years ago, and discovered a 6502 based widget I built in 1985 still ticking away - it's been genlocked to BBC1 or BBC2 for all that time, and I'm told it has another couple of years to go before they move to a new building. Of course, they can't find anything to do *just* what it does so you never know, might be a little consultancy to turn out a new one! I had a previous 6502 widget which ran continuously for around ten years (before the technology rendered it redundant): recording colour bars, countdown, and timecode onto video cassettes prior to editing. Multitasking on a 750kHz 6502! I hear you can get 6502s that run at 14MHz these days, but that the approved way is to blow them onto FPLAs... -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 From: Michael Black Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) In-Reply-To: <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Forwarded: by - (DeleGate/7.3.0) Lines: 46 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:34:16 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.100.62 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 991521230 198.168.100.62 (Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:33:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:33:50 EDT Organization: UUNET Canada News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!gloria.cam.org!blackm00 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82821 alt.sys.pdp10:5200 On Tue, 29 May 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: >[stuff deleted] > Speaking of 6809, I think the one thing that killed the 6809 as > useful cpu is that it was targeted for Games. Look at the Radio Shack > Color Computer - had it had a real serial port and a real floppy/HD > expansion bus the 8 bit micros could of lasted a few more years. > But the 6809 wasn't targetted for games. According to a series of articles in Byte, Motorola did extensive study before creating the 6809. They studied 6800 programs to get a feel for what op-codes were used anw which weren't, they asked around to see what people wanted for the next step up from the 6800. It was intended for ease in handling high level languages (but I have no idea if it worked in fact that way). The 6502 magazines had numerous articles before the 6809 on 16-bit versions of the 6502, drooling over what should be added and what might be in the cards. When the 6909 arrived, they all carried articles about the CPU, because it seemed like the next step. There were all kinds of big systems that used the 6809. They were based on the SS-50 bus, some of them could handle large amounts of memory before most computers could, and certainly one had very fancy I/O cards to shift some of the load off the CPU. Did I say they were really expensive? Nobody has mentioned those systems when talking about the 6809. The CoCo popularized the 6809 in a way that those big systems couldn't If the CoCo hadn't been sold as a game machine, we probably wouldn't have had such a computer, and most likely not so very cheap. Of course there were limitations. But when I bought one in 1984, moving up from my OSI SUperboard II, I sure wasn't thinking of it as a game machine. It was a way to get a more serious computer without paying too much. OS9 for the CoCo arrived practically as soon as the CoCo itself, and if you looked in the right places, there was plenty of talk about the CoCo, it's 6809, and that neat operating system available for it. Michael ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 05:14:20 GMT Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net Message-ID: <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-13.shuswap.net X-Trace: 2 Jun 2001 22:28:55 -0700, salmonarm3-13.shuswap.net Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!feed.textport.net!news.bnb-lp.com!nubby2.!salmonarm3-13.shuswap.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82779 alt.sys.pdp10:5193 Ric Werme wrote: [snip] >Also, both companies spawned very, very strong supporters. In Apple's case >the Apple ][ fans were rabid to the point of gushing over the power >supply and the 6502 uP. Apple was the leader in personal computers until >the PC and clones came out. There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple fanatics were just louder. >I did my fair share of 6502 assembler programming. For years afterward my >resume described the uP as "dreadful". It's no PDP-10, it's not even PDP-11. >Or even 8080/Z80. Fortunately I had a decent C compiler (Manx) that generated >pseudo code for an interpreter or compiled code for native execution. I tried a bit of it. I agree: yech! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Paul Guertin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:07:00 +0900 Organization: Amalgamated Karma Lines: 11 Message-ID: <6rijhtctsh3sksju7u5scq04qlue1j7orb@news.newsguy.com> References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b17fd08$0$42009$45beb828@newscene.com> Reply-To: pg@sff.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p-065.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82792 alt.sys.pdp10:5194 Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Plus, the 6502 is a very fast CPU as well, which was no doubt a direct > consequence of its simplistic design. Most opcodes run in around three > cycles -- at worst six. ObNitpick: ASL, LSR, ROL, ROR, INC, DEC take 7 cycles with the addr,x addressing mode. I think BRK also takes 7 cycles but I could be wrong. Paul Guertin pg@sff.net ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:16:21 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 20 Message-ID: <20010603091621.511dc7ee.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p661.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991556872 9658 194.134.201.189 (3 Jun 2001 08:27:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 08:27:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82802 alt.sys.pdp10:5196 On Sun, 03 Jun 2001 05:14:20 GMT genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: GW> There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple GW> fanatics were just louder. I worked in a computer store around the time of the Pet, Apple ][, and TRS-80 wars. We kept the Pets prominently on display because people came in to see them. They left (usually) with an Apple or TRS-80, mostly the technically minded went out with an Apple (those slots in the back were a big win) and the rest went with the TRS-80. I think we did sell quite a lot more TRS-80 than Apple ][ but the Apple ][ customers got more attached to there machines :) On the subject of the Apple ][ does anyone here know what 'the object of this game' was in Nightmare #6, I never made any sense out of it :( -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 3 Jun 2001 07:46:41 GMT Organization: Around here? Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9fcq11$ivv$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <991435100snz@dsl.co.uk> <6ug0diit2d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3oibf9.1v3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-55-80.btinternet.com User-Agent: Xnews/4.04.17tea Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82817 alt.sys.pdp10:5199 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote in <3oibf9.1v3.ln@teabag.cbhnet>: > According to Neil Franklin : >> Dragon 32 was a 6809 running at 0.89MHz. That was my first home >> computer. Still have it, still runs, video output is broken, no >> colours any more. > > 894KHz IIRC. :) Mine's still in its original box, taking up space in > my parents' loft. > > Chris. That'll be NTSC sc/4 then? Those colour burst crystals sure did get around! (I can still quote PAL: 4.43361875MHz +/- bugger all, but I never knew worked with NTSC enough to remember it!) It always struck me as odd that so many systems used NTSC crystal clocks, as I'd have expected in the UK that PAL crystals would be cheaper. Maybe they were designed in the NTSC world, or was it just that the chips wouldn't work at 1.1MHz? When I was designing such things I used (originally) 6MHz clocks to give 750KHz for the processor and 32 characters across the screen, and later 16MHz to give 2M for the proc and 80 chars on a line. Most of these systems were designed to genlock to an existing video source, and the VCOs could get quite annoyed if the reference went away. -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 03 Jun 2001 17:29:59 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 85 Message-ID: <6upuclk2dk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 991582201 795 10.0.3.2 (3 Jun 2001 15:30:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 2001 15:30:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82829 alt.sys.pdp10:5202 Ben Franchuk writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > At least for first-time designers, which is what the 1970s micro > > designers were. > > No it is just 8 bits are too small for a comfortable CPU design. > Assume 4 registers - AC , Stack , Index and Pc are needed in modern > designs as well as byte/word operations. A very quick design. If you do that, you run out - real fast. Even 12bit ist bottom limit, as seen in CDC160 and PDP-8. But there is more to computer architectures than MIT Whirlwind derivatives. > > If I were back in the 1970s per time machine I would make an T212 > > Transputer with external 8bit bus and without internal RAM and OK, and now for something completely strange, the Transputer: [digs out Transputer data book and looks up T212, only finds T222] Registers: PC (called Next Instruction), SP (called Workspace Pointer) A/B/C 3 level stack (yes, a stack architecture), Opr (Operand) Instructions: format iiiicccc (yes, a hex architecture) cccc is a 4bit constant unless iiii=1111 cccc is extended by the contents of Opr Opr is deleted after every instr other then 0010/0110cccc iiii is: 0000 jump relative cccc address [*] 0001 dereference SP relative cccc pointer 0010 shift cccc into Opr, dont delete this opens up possibility of multi-byte instr - either for multi-nibble constants - or for more then 16 1111cccc instructions they claim 70% of instructions to be 1 byte 0011 load absolute address cccc to A 0100 load constant cccc to A 0101 dereference absolute addr cccc pointer 0110 negate Opr, rest as in 0010 0111 load stack relative cccc to A 1000 add constant cccc to A 1001 call relative cccc address 1010 conditional relative jump cccc address 1011 add cccc to SP 1100 test A equal to cccc (subtract, store flag to A) 1101 store A to stack relative cccc 1110 store A to absolute address cccc 1111 take cccc as an constant-less instruction when iiii is 1111 then cccc is: 0000 reverse (I assume this to be byte swap) 0001 load byte addressed by A to A 0010 byte subscript address addition 0011 end process(!), actually thread [*] 0100 difference, dont have exact description here 0101 add B+A->A 0110 call address in A and put old PC into A 0111 input from channel in A [*] 1000 multiply B*A->A 1001 test greater (subtract and store flag to A) 1010 word subscript address addition 1011 output data opinted to by B to channel in A [*] 1100 subtract B-A->A 1101 fork/start process 1110 output byte in B to channel A [*] 1111 output word in B to channel A [*] also when iiii is 1111 cccc can be Opr extended, 66 such in list [*] all these and a few other istructions allow interrupt or thread switch because of this the stack A/B/C is not guarantied to survive them > > links. Should be possible with Z80 level technology. And faster. > > Who knows! but then again I think my 12 bit cpu is better than any > 8 bit cpu! ( even the 6809 ). You have got a 4bit advantage. That is unfair :-). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 3 Jun 2001 10:06:03 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3b1a51a5$0$2686$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b17fd08$0$42009$45beb828@newscene.com> <6rijhtctsh3sksju7u5scq04qlue1j7orb@news.newsguy.com> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82835 alt.sys.pdp10:5204 References trimmed. Paul Guertin writes: >>Plus, the 6502 is a very fast CPU as well, which was no doubt a direct >>consequence of its simplistic design. Most opcodes run in around three >>cycles -- at worst six. >ObNitpick: ASL, LSR, ROL, ROR, INC, DEC take 7 cycles with the addr,x >addressing mode. I think BRK also takes 7 cycles but I could be wrong. Oops, you're right. BRK is also seven with all the stack manipulations. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 04 Jun 2001 15:19:24 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 4 Jun 2001 15:37:00 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82966 alt.sys.pdp10:5235 genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes: > There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple > fanatics were just louder. I'm not convinced. All the market analysis that I remember reading back in that time period had Apple as far and away the market leader in unit sales of microcomputers from 1978 to 1982. After that, the IBM PC ate into their market share at the high end, and the Commodore 64 at the low end. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> <20010603091621.511dc7ee.steveo@eircom.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 04 Jun 2001 15:20:28 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 4 Jun 2001 15:38:05 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82974 alt.sys.pdp10:5239 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On the subject of the Apple ][ does anyone here know what 'the object > of this game' was in Nightmare #6, I never made any sense out of it :( Certainly. The objective was to get the largest possible point count. I used to know how to acheive that objective, but I've forgotten. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:37:10 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991694837 nnrp-14:11637 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82903 alt.sys.pdp10:5212 According to Eric Smith : > I'm not convinced. All the market analysis that I remember reading back > in that time period had Apple as far and away the market leader in unit > sales of microcomputers from 1978 to 1982. After that, the IBM PC ate > into their market share at the high end, and the Commodore 64 at the low > end. Must be a US thing; I only ever saw one Apple 2, and never heard of anyone who owned one. I suppose the UK equivalent was the BBC Micro, which were all over the bloody place (and probably a better machine IMHO) Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: Vector Internet Services, Inc. Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:25:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 991697102 209.98.98.8 (Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:25:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:25:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!rsteiner Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82982 alt.sys.pdp10:5241 In article , Michael Black wrote: >Nobody has mentioned those systems when talking about the 6809. The >CoCo popularized the 6809 in a way that those big systems couldn't. >If the CoCo hadn't been sold as a game machine, we probably wouldn't >have had such a computer, and most likely not so very cheap. My GCE Vectrex arcade system has a 6809 in it, methinks. :-) It didn't sell as well as the CoCo, tho... -- -Rich Steiner >>>---> rsteiner@visi.com >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4! The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3B1C3130.882AC0DE@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 01:11:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 991703494 24.186.100.134 (Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:11:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:11:34 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82964 alt.sys.pdp10:5231 Eric Smith wrote: > > genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes: > > There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple > > fanatics were just louder. > > I'm not convinced. All the market analysis that I remember reading back > in that time period had Apple as far and away the market leader in unit > sales of microcomputers from 1978 to 1982. After that, the IBM PC ate > into their market share at the high end, and the Commodore 64 at the low > end. I seem to remember that Apple's numbers were inflated because of all the give-away machines they donated to the educational market - something like 2 for the price of 1, or half-price? aak ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 4 Jun 2001 23:05:04 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3b1c59d2$0$251$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.icl.net!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82937 alt.sys.pdp10:5218 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >>I'm not convinced. All the market analysis that I remember reading back >>in that time period had Apple as far and away the market leader in unit >>sales of microcomputers from 1978 to 1982. After that, the IBM PC ate >>into their market share at the high end, and the Commodore 64 at the low >>end. >Must be a US thing; I only ever saw one Apple 2, and never heard of anyone >who owned one. I suppose the UK equivalent was the BBC Micro, which were >all over the bloody place (and probably a better machine IMHO) Someone told me there is a USA version of the Beeb. True? The source is very reliable but I was wondering if anyone's actually seen it in person. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:07:03 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20010605080703.0af6c424.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> <20010603091621.511dc7ee.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p506.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991721552 49224 194.134.201.70 (5 Jun 2001 06:12:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 06:12:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82957 alt.sys.pdp10:5227 On 04 Jun 2001 15:20:28 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: ES> Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: ES> > On the subject of the Apple ][ does anyone here know what 'the object ES> > of this game' was in Nightmare #6, I never made any sense out of it :( ES> ES> Certainly. The objective was to get the largest possible point count. ES> ES> I used to know how to acheive that objective, but I've forgotten. You clearly had more patience with it than I did :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:12:01 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 22 Message-ID: <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p506.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991721552 49224 194.134.201.70 (5 Jun 2001 06:12:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 06:12:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82958 alt.sys.pdp10:5228 On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:37:10 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> Must be a US thing; I only ever saw one Apple 2, and never heard of anyone CH> who owned one. I suppose the UK equivalent was the BBC Micro, which were CH> all over the bloody place (and probably a better machine IMHO) That was a later machine. The Apple ][ was all over the UK years before the BBC micro was resurrected from the dust of the Proton project because Ferranti couldn't deliver ULAs to Newbury Labs in time (actually at all). In fact the Apple ][ was more like contemporary to (if not predating) the Acorn Atom. The Apple ][ had one notable advantage over the BBC micro, it had expansion cards that were *really* easy to use, these won the lab market for the Apple ][. Very few at the time appeared to consider it a home computer. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: "John Carlyle-Clarke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:21:02 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <6qbif9.i5u.ln@pc69.comconnect> References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-uk-post-02!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!pc69.comconnect!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82930 "Michael Black" wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.10.10106021723590.32458-100000@gloria.cam.org... > [snip] > > There were all kinds of big systems that used the 6809. They were > based on the SS-50 bus, some of them could handle large amounts of > memory before most computers could, and certainly one had very > fancy I/O cards to shift some of the load off the CPU. Did I > say they were really expensive? > > Nobody has mentioned those systems when talking about the 6809. The > CoCo popularized the 6809 in a way that those big systems couldn't > If the CoCo hadn't been sold as a game machine, we probably wouldn't > have had such a computer, and most likely not so very cheap. > [snip] I have got an SWTPC system (6809 based) which I have never managed to get going, but I have just acquired a rather home-made looking 6809 based machine which does AFAIK work. I also have FLEX disks and documentation (my SWTPC machine had FLEX documentation but no disks, sadly - HD had crashed too). I am looking forward to some tinkering with these two, especially now I've found the SWTPC enthusiast websites that exist. I've not programmed the 6809, but the instruction set looks quite good. The assembler vaguely reminds me of the ARM CPU's, my favourite to program in assembler. ###### From: "John Carlyle-Clarke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:30:59 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!pc69.comconnect!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82935 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:mi2hf9.cc5.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Eric Smith : > > I'm not convinced. All the market analysis that I remember reading back > > in that time period had Apple as far and away the market leader in unit > > sales of microcomputers from 1978 to 1982. After that, the IBM PC ate > > into their market share at the high end, and the Commodore 64 at the low > > end. > > Must be a US thing; I only ever saw one Apple 2, and never heard of anyone > who owned one. I suppose the UK equivalent was the BBC Micro, which were > all over the bloody place (and probably a better machine IMHO) > Neither did I, until I came to work where I am now. We have many through-hole PCB assembly machines which are controlled by Apple 2's, and still in service. Though very few of these machines are made now, they ported everything to a PC at some point. However, lots of the old ones are still chugging away out there. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:40:09 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991747352 nnrp-13:21095 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82896 alt.sys.pdp10:5209 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > The Apple ][ had one notable advantage over the BBC micro, it had > expansion cards that were *really* easy to use, these won the lab market for > the Apple ][. Very few at the time appeared to consider it a home computer. I suppose the lab-orientation of the machine explains it; the BBC came out in about '80 (?) when I would've been 12, so I didn't see the insides of too many labs back then. :) Schools at the time were really into Commode Pets and Research Machines' 380Z; rich kids got BBC model Bs for home and everyone else seemed to have a VIC-20 or a Sinclair Spectrum (okay, a year or two after) I always thought that the BBC was pretty neat wrt expansion, particularly with its 1 MByte/s interface (which still seems ridiculously fast for a 20 year old 8-bit home micro) but I guess this falls down in comparison with the Apple as it needed all sorts of awkward and expensive expansion boxes to use. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:42:23 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3b1c59d2$0$251$45beb828@newscene.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991747353 nnrp-13:21095 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82898 alt.sys.pdp10:5210 According to Cameron Kaiser : > Someone told me there is a USA version of the Beeb. True? The source is > very reliable but I was wondering if anyone's actually seen it in person. I know one existed, but I'm not aware of how well it sold. Apparently the only differences were the TV out being NTSC instead of PAL, and the COLOUR command was renamed to COLOR[1], but that's about it AFAIK. [1] Nice idea to avoid typos, but I'm not convinced about the merits of introducing subtle incompatibilities into the language... Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 5 Jun 2001 13:33:55 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9fin43$b9d$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3b1c59d2$0$251$45beb828@newscene.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82950 alt.sys.pdp10:5222 In article , Chris Hedley wrote: >According to Cameron Kaiser : >> Someone told me there is a USA version of the Beeb. True? The source is >> very reliable but I was wondering if anyone's actually seen it in person. > >I know one existed, but I'm not aware of how well it sold. Apparently the >only differences were the TV out being NTSC instead of PAL, and the COLOUR >command was renamed to COLOR[1], but that's about it AFAIK. > >[1] Nice idea to avoid typos, but I'm not convinced about the merits of > introducing subtle incompatibilities into the language... It wasn't really an incompatibility -- you could still spell it COLOUR if you wanted, and every release of BBC BASIC after that could use both spellings. -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:54:04 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 25 Message-ID: <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1148.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991770253 99591 194.134.203.129 (5 Jun 2001 19:44:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:44:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82963 alt.sys.pdp10:5230 On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:40:09 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> I suppose the lab-orientation of the machine explains it; the BBC came out CH> in about '80 (?) when I would've been 12, so I didn't see the insides of I had my hands on a few BBC model B boards about the end of 1981, I'm pretty sure they weren't in the shops by then, they might have made it in time for Christmas 1981. I was busy turning them into Torches. Interesting thing about the BBC model B - the floppy controller chip was on the manufacturers obsolete list *before* any BBC model B machines were made. CH> with the Apple as it needed all sorts of awkward and expensive expansion CH> boxes to use. The Apple ][ walked all over everything at the time in that area. Think PC style slots without the screws and pain. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:56:07 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20010605195607.3b29098b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1148.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991770253 99591 194.134.203.129 (5 Jun 2001 19:44:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:44:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82956 On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:30:59 +0100 "John Carlyle-Clarke" wrote: JC> ported everything to a PC at some point. However, lots of the old ones are JC> still chugging away out there. Keep them there! A micro based product still going after this long is getting near to a tradition. They may well hold some kind of record :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:31:00 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991777612 nnrp-02:29585 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82914 alt.sys.pdp10:5213 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > I had my hands on a few BBC model B boards about the end of 1981, I'm > pretty sure they weren't in the shops by then, they might have made it in time > for Christmas 1981. I was busy turning them into Torches. Was the Torch the big brown metal thing with the built-in screen? IIRC it was essentially a Motorola M68K running Unix with the BBC/B motherboard as a sort of graphics terminal controller (this is probably completely wrong as I read about it in about '83 before I knew anything about "real" computers) Looked extremely nice, anyway; I really wanted one. > Interesting thing about the BBC model B - the floppy controller chip > was on the manufacturers obsolete list *before* any BBC model B machines were > made. Oops. Slight lapse in planning there; I suppose I'm quite surprised as they were pretty good at getting everything else spot-on. Even now, I'm still amazed at what they managed to squeeze out of a 2MHz 6502. > The Apple ][ walked all over everything at the time in that area. Think > PC style slots without the screws and pain. I must admit I was impressed at the fact that the top could be flipped up just by pushing a catch back, something which Atari seemed to borrow for the cartridge slot(s) in their 400 and 800. Even today, PC systems don't seem to have got the gist that easy hardware access is a good thing. Even though they hadn't thought to pinch the idea from day one, you'd think that things would've improved after two decades, but no. I think that the main problem for the Apple 2 in the UK was its outrageous price tag; even when it was a bit long in the tooth the price was, IIRC, about £550 - 600. Compare that with a BBC/B at £400, and even that was considered to be artificially overpriced compared with a lot of the competition. That the latter could get away with it says a lot about the design of the system, but 50% more, as for the Apple, was apparently just one step too far. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:08:39 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 40 Message-ID: <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1240.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 991846809 7361 194.134.203.221 (6 Jun 2001 17:00:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:00:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83025 alt.sys.pdp10:5245 On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:31:00 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> Was the Torch the big brown metal thing with the built-in screen? IIRC it CH> was essentially a Motorola M68K running Unix with the BBC/B motherboard as Z80 running CP/N (CP/M clone). There was a 68K version planned but AFAIK it never saw the light of day. It also had a built in modem which was very rare in those days. CH> a sort of graphics terminal controller (this is probably completely wrong That's about it the idea of the Torch range was to use BBC/Bs as IO controllers for a range of work processor add ons. We even had plans for multiple work processors. CH> Oops. Slight lapse in planning there; I suppose I'm quite surprised as they CH> were pretty good at getting everything else spot-on. Even now, I'm still Software was good, hardware was more iffy. They got it working in production but it wasn't pretty. The clock box on the econet was a last minute kludge because the same circuitry *would not work* on the BBC main board and had to be chopped out. There was the infamous case support that just happened to be a large fluted aluminium object fixed to the top of the vidproc ULA. Even with the over complex ULAs there was too much circuitry for the board and it had to be laid out by hand - look for the two tracks going between the pins of a chip that happens several times in the BBC/B board. CH> I think that the main problem for the Apple 2 in the UK was its outrageous CH> price tag; even when it was a bit long in the tooth the price was, IIRC, CH> about £550 - 600. Compare that with a BBC/B at £400, and even that That's what kept it out of the home market. Labs OTOH were more than willing to pay that for a test equipment controller/experiment runner that could be programmed. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 6 Jun 2001 20:22:41 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9fm3eh$1v46@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83013 alt.sys.pdp10:5244 In article <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple >fanatics were just louder. Very early, yes. I recal a point where RS had shipped 200,000 units to Apple's 100,000. But after that, RS quickly fell behind and stayed there. hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3B1E93B8.977CF57D@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> <9fm3eh$1v46@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:36:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 991859797 24.186.100.134 (Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:36:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:36:37 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!cyclone.bc.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83029 alt.sys.pdp10:5247 "Prof. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net>, > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > > There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple > >fanatics were just louder. > > Very early, yes. I recal a point where RS had shipped 200,000 units to > Apple's 100,000. But after that, RS quickly fell behind and stayed > there. I know one person that is devoted to the memory of his TRS-80 - ask him about Apple's? ACK PTHHTPT! I used a TRS-80 (one of the first out) around the age of 12. I was able to walk into a Radio Shack and convinced the manager that I could program the thing and he would profit because people would watch me. At times, I had >20 people watching me... definitely generated quite a bit of business for the guy, and I got the ultimate pleasure. Hacking for free! aak ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 6 Jun 2001 22:26:00 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991865159 nnrp-14:20392 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83057 alt.sys.pdp10:5261 Steve O'Hara-Smith (steveo@eircom.net) wrote: : On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:31:00 +0100 : cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: : CH> Was the Torch the big brown metal thing with the built-in screen? IIRC it : CH> was essentially a Motorola M68K running Unix with the BBC/B motherboard as : Z80 running CP/N (CP/M clone). There was a 68K version planned but : AFAIK it never saw the light of day. It also had a built in modem which was : very rare in those days. There is a Torch 68K machine (I say 'is' because some still exist). It's called the Torch XXX, and has a 68000 CPU with a 6303 'service processor'. The basic model has everything on one PCB, with SCSI bus for disks, VME bus (normally used for extra memory boards), and something called X-bus. This turns out to be essentially the same as the BBC 1MHz bus, but without the interrupt lines (IIRC). Apart from that bus, there is no connection between the XXX and the BBC micro -- the XXX doesn't have a BBC motherboard for I/O or anything. There are some odd features of the XXX. It has a soft power switch (actually a pair of touch contacts). Touching it turns on the PSU and starts the service processor. The service processor keeps the PSU turned on and boots up the machine. To turn the machine off you touch the power switch again. This sends an interrupt to the service processor which then tells the main CPU to do a proper shutdown. When the system is shut down properly, the service processor turns the PSU off. For this to work properly, the NiCd battery on the PSU board has to be charged. That is the power source for the touch-switch before the PSU has started up. If this battery goes flat, there's no easy way to jump-start the machine (unlike the WCW MG1 workstation which has a 'jump start connector' inside). The official repair is to replace the PSU. Needless to say I have some simpler ways to get them going. A number of people have told me that if you swap over the 2 pin connectors on the PSU (one is mains in, the other is switched mains out to the monitor), the machine will start up. It will, but don't do it as you've bypassed the mains fuse. Should anything go wrong with the PSU, it could be _very_ unpleasant. Another odd feature of the XXX is the way that it boots. There is one EPROM on the mainboard, and it's 8 bits wide. It's on the service processor bus. The video memory is shared between the service processor and the 68000, and at least at the start it's at the very bottom of the 68000's address space. The bootstrap consists of the service processor keeping the 68000 reset, and then copying the initial vectors and 68000 bootstrap into the video memory. The service processor then lets the 68000 run. The 68000 fetches the reset vector from the video memory (which has, of course been written by the service processor), jumps to the bootstrap code, also in video memory, and boots up. There's also a much rarer machine called a Torch Quad-X (or XXXX). I think it's 68030-based, and the main board of that machine is just another VME card packed with chips. There's a Torch custom chip which seems to handle much of the video side with a few microcode PROMs hung off it (and I can't for the life of me remember what it's called). It shares some features (like the soft power switch) with the XXX. -tony ###### From: "janS" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:11:05 +0100 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9fo1g4$115$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3b1c59d2$0$251$45beb828@newscene.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-80.banner-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 991922500 1061 62.136.227.80 (7 Jun 2001 14:01:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 2001 14:01:40 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83079 alt.sys.pdp10:5273 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:vigif9.291.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Cameron Kaiser : > > Someone told me there is a USA version of the Beeb. True? The source is > > very reliable but I was wondering if anyone's actually seen it in person. > > I know one existed, but I'm not aware of how well it sold. Apparently the > only differences were the TV out being NTSC instead of PAL, and the COLOUR > command was renamed to COLOR[1], but that's about it AFAIK. > > [1] Nice idea to avoid typos, but I'm not convinced about the merits of > introducing subtle incompatibilities into the language... > Page 478 of "The Advanced User Guide for the BBC Micro" is titled "Appendix G - The American MOS Differences". Basically, it suggests that the differences are due to video circuitry (e.g. frame sync at 50Hz for US, 60Hz in UK. UK graphics mode resolutions are X x 256, US versions are X x 200. etc...) -- Remove guts to reply ###### From: "janS" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:19:52 +0100 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9fo1g8$115$2@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu><20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-80.banner-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 991922504 1061 62.136.227.80 (7 Jun 2001 14:01:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 2001 14:01:44 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83080 alt.sys.pdp10:5275 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote stuff like > I had my hands on a few BBC model B boards about the end of 1981, I'm > pretty sure they weren't in the shops by then, they might have made it in time > for Christmas 1981. I was busy turning them into Torches. The User Guide says "Printed 1982" > > Interesting thing about the BBC model B - the floppy controller chip > was on the manufacturers obsolete list *before* any BBC model B machines were > made. Ah yes, the good ol' 8271. Never managed to get one for my original Beeb (which I've still got, but it doesn't start unless I make link 25 'south' (eg think it's a Model A) Any ideas anyone? My very dusty memory keeps hinting at "address latch gone wrong" but that was circa '88 & I've forgotten my 'lectronics since then. I wanna play Revs again!). -- Remove guts to reply ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 7 Jun 2001 19:54:24 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9foil0$jq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu><20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <9fo1g8$115$2@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 991945786 nnrp-07:2992 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83063 alt.sys.pdp10:5263 janS (jann@cryogenic.freegutsserve.co.ugutsk) wrote: : > Interesting thing about the BBC model B - the floppy controller chip : > was on the manufacturers obsolete list *before* any BBC model B machines : were : > made. : Ah yes, the good ol' 8271. Never managed to get one for my original Beeb Indeed. It was probably chosen for the Beeb because it was also used in the Acorn 'System' machines (which were 19" cardcages full of eurocards). : (which I've still got, but it doesn't start unless I make link 25 'south' : (eg think it's a Model A) Any ideas anyone? My very dusty memory keeps : hinting at "address latch gone wrong" but that was circa '88 & I've : forgotten my 'lectronics since then. I wanna play Revs again!). According to my BBC schematic, link S25 selects how much RAM the machine has (16K or 32K). Since your machine works as a 16K machine and not as a 32K one, it would appear you've got a RAM failure. Shouldn't be hard to sort out. -tony ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 08 Jun 2001 23:44:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 992036663 771 10.0.3.2 (8 Jun 2001 21:44:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 2001 21:44:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83131 alt.sys.pdp10:5300 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > There is a Torch 68K machine (I say 'is' because some still exist). It's > called the Torch XXX, and has a 68000 CPU with a 6303 'service > processor'. Still remember the ads for it. Looked cool - and way over my budget (C64 using teenage apprentice in those days). > Another odd feature of the XXX is the way that it boots. There is one > EPROM on the mainboard, and it's 8 bits wide. It's on the service > processor bus. The video memory is shared between the service processor > and the 68000, and at least at the start it's at the very bottom of the > 68000's address space. The bootstrap consists of the service processor > keeping the 68000 reset, and then copying the initial vectors and 68000 > bootstrap into the video memory. The service processor then lets the > 68000 run. The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM in the entire machine was inside the microcontroller that (in software!) implemented its floppy disk controller. may have been 8. Its main Z80 was hung in reset until the disk controller had wrote the Z80s boot program into the main (D)RAM. Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some strange things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:31:05 +0100 Message-ID: <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.03) Organization: None Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: usercd47.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 992078786 news.dial.pipex.com 15022 62.188.151.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!f.de.uu.net!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83173 In article , Chris Hedley wrote: > I must admit I was impressed at the fact that the top could be flipped up > just by pushing a catch back, something which Atari seemed to borrow for > the cartridge slot(s) in their 400 and 800. Even today, PC systems don't > seem to have got the gist that easy hardware access is a good thing. Even > though they hadn't thought to pinch the idea from day one, you'd think that > things would've improved after two decades, but no. Acorn adopted this in the RiscPC in 1994. (This is an ARM-based machine, not a PC, by the way.) To remove the lid all you do is flip open two clips. Acorn had another idea that I have not seen elsewhere: if you want to add more disk drives or whatever to the machine, you just add another layer to the case to hold the addition hardware. You could end up with a desktop computer three feet tall if you really wanted to. Acorn had one like this for exhibition purposes (the 'rocket ship') which included a pizza oven and a small hand basin in the top with working taps. Nowadays RISC OS machines use PC cases instead of custom designs for cost reasons. Dave Daniels ###### From: Bruce Bergman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: A clean desk is a sure sign of a sick mind. Reply-To: blCHURRObergman@earthlink.net Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 03:49:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.249.66.49 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 992058558 216.249.66.49 (Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:49:18 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:49:18 PDT X-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:47:19 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83197 alt.sys.pdp10:5319 On 08 Jun 2001 23:44:21 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an >end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some strange >things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... From serious desktop CPU to a handheld game machine... What a fall. --<< Bruce >>-- (Reference: Los Angeles Times 6/7/2001 'Tech Times' pg T-1 & T-8) -- Bruce L. Bergman blCHURRObergman@ NOearthSPAMlink.netEVER Remove the caps. Troubleshooter - Electrician, Phones, HVAC, Plumbing,... 'Current'ly with Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA 818/889-9545 WARNING: No Unsolicited Commercial E-mail is EVER accepted. ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:13:13 GMT Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net Message-ID: <3b21a18a.40644899@news.shuswap.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-24.shuswap.net X-Trace: 8 Jun 2001 21:27:59 -0700, salmonarm3-24.shuswap.net Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!feed.textport.net!news.bnb-lp.com!nubby2.!salmonarm3-24.shuswap.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83165 alt.sys.pdp10:5309 Bruce Bergman wrote: >On 08 Jun 2001 23:44:21 +0200, Neil Franklin >wrote: > >>Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an >>end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some strange >>things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. > > The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 >they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... > > From serious desktop CPU to a handheld game machine... What a fall. It use to be used in cash registers. Now, lower end x86 chips are used. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 9 Jun 2001 16:22:32 +0800 Organization: University Computer Club Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9fsmc8$7ch$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: enyo.uwa.edu.au 992074954 25539 130.95.13.17 (9 Jun 2001 08:22:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uwa.edu.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.stealth.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83177 alt.sys.pdp10:5316 Neil Franklin writes: >Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an >end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. End? God no - the Z80 is the Architecture That Will Never Die. They're still being used in their millions, although these days it's not quite the Z80 we knew. Zilog make a variety of Z180s - Z80 based microcontrollers. The Rabbit (a relatively new microcontroller) looks like a Z80 clone, though I'm not sure if it's binary compatible. And then there's the Gameboy (but not the GBA). OK, it's not the goold old 40 pin NMOS(?) monster of the past. But the architecture is still very much alive. John ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:16:28 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b21a18a.40644899@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992093073 nnrp-13:6202 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83142 alt.sys.pdp10:5303 According to Gene Wirchenko : > It use to be used in cash registers. Now, lower end x86 chips > are used. An increasing number of cash registers seem to be fully-fledged AS/400 terminals with a cardswipe attached... quite worrying, really. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:19:48 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: <48tsf9.is.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992093074 nnrp-13:6202 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83139 According to Dave Daniels : > Acorn adopted this in the RiscPC in 1994. (This is an ARM-based > machine, not a PC, by the way.) To remove the lid all you do is > flip open two clips. An acquantance had one around that time, I think (she was a schoolteacher, and they were quite seriously into Acorn kit) although I never really got a proper look at the thing. > Acorn had another idea that I have not > seen elsewhere: if you want to add more disk drives or whatever to > the machine, you just add another layer to the case to hold the > addition hardware. You could end up with a desktop computer three > feet tall if you really wanted to. Acorn had one like this for > exhibition purposes (the 'rocket ship') which included a pizza > oven and a small hand basin in the top with working taps. Nowadays > RISC OS machines use PC cases instead of custom designs for cost > reasons. The Motorola packaging for the VMEcard based systems used a similar stacking system in about the mid '90s; looked a lot like a stackable hi-fi system. This was about the time when the MVME197 (M88K) CPUs were being dumped in favour of the Power processors. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: hmv@port.ac.uk (Mike Meredith at home) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:41:01 +0100 Lines: 36 Sender: mike@port.ac.uk Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-21.aredhel.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 992090550 6676 62.136.123.21 (9 Jun 2001 12:42:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 2001 12:42:30 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!lucifer!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83132 In article <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels writes: > In article , > Chris Hedley wrote: >> I must admit I was impressed at the fact that the top could be flipped up >> just by pushing a catch back, something which Atari seemed to borrow for >> the cartridge slot(s) in their 400 and 800. Even today, PC systems don't >> seem to have got the gist that easy hardware access is a good thing. Even >> though they hadn't thought to pinch the idea from day one, you'd think that >> things would've improved after two decades, but no. Some SGI's have well-designed cases that are easy to get into. With my Indigo^2 :- * Pull the iron bar that runs through the case out (sometimes equipped with a padlock --- the I^2 dates from a time where nicking SIMMs was both easy and profitable) * Press a couple of plastic buttons on the front of the case to detach the media flap * Press a couple of plastic buttons on the front to lift off the top of the case. The card cage is accessable by pulling out and down a metal flap. The CPU and the first bank of SIMMs can be got at by removing the 5.25" drive cage (two screws). > Acorn adopted this in the RiscPC in 1994. (This is an ARM-based > machine, not a PC, by the way.) To remove the lid all you do is > flip open two clips. Acorn had another idea that I have not > seen elsewhere: if you want to add more disk drives or whatever to > the machine, you just add another layer to the case to hold the The "twin tower" varients of some of SGI's early MIPS-based systems had a similar sort of arrangement, although they could hardly be called desktops. ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 9 Jun 2001 09:37:05 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3b2233fa$0$260$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b21a18a.40644899@news.shuswap.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83164 alt.sys.pdp10:5308 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >>It use to be used in cash registers. Now, lower end x86 chips >>are used. >An increasing number of cash registers seem to be fully-fledged AS/400 >terminals with a cardswipe attached... quite worrying, really. CompUSA here in the States is using Java-based PoS terminals. Despite this seeming handicap, they still seem to operate at a reasonable speed. :-P -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 09 Jun 2001 19:25:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6uvgm5pnux.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b21a18a.40644899@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 992107511 710 10.0.3.2 (9 Jun 2001 17:25:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 2001 17:25:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83201 alt.sys.pdp10:5320 genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes: > Bruce Bergman wrote: > > >On 08 Jun 2001 23:44:21 +0200, Neil Franklin > >wrote: > > > >>Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an > >>end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some strange > >>things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. > > > > The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 > >they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... > > > > From serious desktop CPU to a handheld game machine... What a fall. > > It use to be used in cash registers. Now, lower end x86 chips > are used. OK then, end-of-Z80-as-serious-desktop-CPU-life. Was just saving a bit of typing. Af course one should not do that on a.f.c :-). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 9 Jun 2001 23:36:59 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9fu8eb$ne@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992129962 nnrp-10:21217 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83224 alt.sys.pdp10:5324 Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote: : The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM : in the entire machine was inside the microcontroller that (in software!) : implemented its floppy disk controller. Hmmm... I have the service manuals for most of the PCWs to hand (and they all have very similar schematics). The floppy disk controller in all the machines is a standard uPD765 (aka 8272 -- the disk controller used in the original IBM PC floppy controller card, etc). I think it's safe to say that it has nothing to do with providing the initial code for the Z80. : may have been 8. : Its main Z80 was hung in reset until the disk controller had wrote the : Z80s boot program into the main (D)RAM. There is no separate ROM on any of the PCW boards, true. There are 2 places where the bootstrap code could be stored : In the gate array (Amstrad 40028). It is possible (of course) to implement small ROMs in gate arrays. In the printer microcontroller (Amstrad 40026, for example, looks like a programemd Intel 8042 device). Now, this chip is certainly a peripheral to the Z80 and can't, itself, start writing to RAM. It's reset at the same time as the Z80 (the reset pins are linked together on the schematic), so I don't think the gate array can send commands to the printer controller to read out some of its ROM and write it to RAM and then let the Z80 read it. I also don't think that the gate array can use the program verification feature of the 8042 to read out some bytes from its ROM and dump them into RAM, since that involves applying more than 5V to one of the pins, and there's no way that can be done. So I think it's a reasonable guess that the bootstrap is not in the microntroller, it's in the gate array (which is what I was told by somebody at Amstrad). Still a neat hack... -tony ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:44:49 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: <1t8uf9.573.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992170543 nnrp-10:3152 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83215 According to Mike Meredith at home : > Some SGI's have well-designed cases that are easy to get into. > With my Indigo^2 :- Same story with the Indy; just pull up the "catch" on the back and the cover slides forwards. Shame PC manufacturers still haven't cottoned on, by and large. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 9 Jun 2001 23:45:39 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9fu8uj$o7@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992129964 nnrp-10:21217 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83222 Dave Daniels (dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk) wrote: : In article , : Chris Hedley wrote: : > I must admit I was impressed at the fact that the top could be flipped up : > just by pushing a catch back, something which Atari seemed to borrow for : > the cartridge slot(s) in their 400 and 800. Even today, PC systems don't : > seem to have got the gist that easy hardware access is a good thing. Even : > though they hadn't thought to pinch the idea from day one, you'd think that : > things would've improved after two decades, but no. I've never understood this love of screwdriverless cases. If I'm going to be working inside a computer I am going to need a soldering iron, multimeter and logic analyser just for starters. Which means having to use a screwdriver to remove the case is not a big problem. The thing I hate is plastic clips, which always seem to break if you look at them wrongly. Give me a metal screw, with a standard thread.... : Acorn adopted this in the RiscPC in 1994. (This is an ARM-based : machine, not a PC, by the way.) To remove the lid all you do is : flip open two clips. Acorn had another idea that I have not This was fine until you added the expansion backplane. You then had to remove the expansion cards before you could separate the slices. And to do that involved using a screwdriver to undo the board fixing screws. Or at least that's the official way to do it. : seen elsewhere: if you want to add more disk drives or whatever to The Torch XXX was built like this, even to the extent that you can't build a XXX with no disk slices (just as you can't build a RISC-PC with no disk slices) -- and for the same reason. The PSU is taller than the bottom tray and it fits into a space in the disk slice. Torch made slices for drives (one 5.25" bay with a front opening for a floppy drive or tape drive, one internal for a hard disk), and for VME expansion (either a single-slot one or a 4 or 5 slot unit called a 'Quinring'). The Zilog S8000 Model 30 Unix box is also built in slices -- about 18" square and linked by cables ending in DIN 41612 connectors. The logic board cardcage and PSU is one slice, the hard disk and tape drive is another slice, and there are other slices with just the connector panels for the serial ports on them (and which often got used as a place to store manuals, etc). -tony ###### From: nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 10 Jun 2001 06:21:32 GMT Organization: Around here? Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9fv3lc$9es$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <9fu8uj$o7@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-79-136.btinternet.com User-Agent: Xnews/4.04.17tea Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83250 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote in <9fu8uj$o7@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>: > Torch made slices for drives (one 5.25" bay with a front opening for a > floppy drive or tape drive, one internal for a hard disk), and for VME > expansion (either a single-slot one or a 4 or 5 slot unit called a > 'Quinring'). > > The Zilog S8000 Model 30 Unix box is also built in slices -- about 18" > square and linked by cables ending in DIN 41612 connectors. The logic > board cardcage and PSU is one slice, the hard disk and tape drive is > another slice, and there are other slices with just the connector > panels for the serial ports on them (and which often got used as a > place to store manuals, etc). My Tangerine (6502) system worked on a similar concept but the slices were individual cards: the main CPU and video was on one slice, the expansion ROM and I/O card was the next, and after that you could put whatever you wanted - either you bought it, or built it yourself. The whole lot was on a DIN41612 connector backplane with the first two cards (which changed some addressing logic depending on what was available). -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: "John Carlyle-Clarke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:16:12 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <6o52g9.4la.ln@pc69.comconnect> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!pc69.comconnect!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83301 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM > in the entire machine was inside the microcontroller that (in software!) > implemented its floppy disk controller. > Coincidentally, and dangerously close to being on-topic, that was the first and only machine I ever saw and used Logo on, if I am thinking of the same thing. It was an Amstrad with 3" floppies that ran CP/M iirc. About the only other thing I remember about it was Locoscript (sp?). ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:42:26 +0100 Message-ID: <992256053.23307.0.nnrp-14.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992256053 nnrp-14:23307 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83390 alt.sys.pdp10:5360 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM > in the entire machine was inside the microcontroller that (in software!) > implemented its floppy disk controller. > > may have been 8. > > Its main Z80 was hung in reset until the disk controller had wrote the > Z80s boot program into the main (D)RAM. > Vik Olliver who did the design work on PCW was quite "proud" of the kludge factor involved (IIRC it was the keyboard controller) I'm not sure if he did this or someone else at amstrad did. His resume is at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vik/vikres.htm He's completely nutty about survivalism and has no nerves in his fingers so the only way he could tell if he burnt himself with a soldering iron was when he smelt it. He also famously blew up the new office network by taping (temporary fix until we cabled properly) the network cable and power cables together using a tape gun (He shorted both together) all the computers survived (minus their line drivers) as did Vik. ###### From: Karri Kalpio Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 11 Jun 2001 16:08:32 +0300 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 28 Message-ID: <87wv6jp3jj.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6o52g9.4la.ln@pc69.comconnect> NNTP-Posting-Host: leeloo.dallas.multipass.moremagic.com X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 992264912 28047 195.163.185.138 (11 Jun 2001 13:08:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2001 13:08:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83377 "John Carlyle-Clarke" writes: > "Neil Franklin" wrote in message > news:6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM ... > Coincidentally, and dangerously close to being on-topic, that was the first > and only machine I ever saw and used Logo on, if I am thinking of the same > thing. It was an Amstrad with 3" floppies that ran CP/M iirc. About the > only other thing I remember about it was Locoscript (sp?). You probably aren't... Amstrad PCW512 was an "almost" PC whereas boxes that ran e.g. Logo and CP/M were the CPC series. I'm not sure if CPC464 did run CP/M but IIRC both CPC664 and CPC6128 did. And CPC464 only came with a cassette drive, 664 & 6128 had 3" floppies. There was also the "personal word processor" or something like that that also used floppies - I've never used such a box so I'm not sure... but did it have a built-in word procesor software? --karri (still a proud owner of an almost working CPC6128 ;-) ) -- /"\ : Karri Kalpio \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign : karri@moremagic.com X Against HTML Mail : [+358] (40) 5926895 (mobile) / \ : [+358] (9) 75111771 (work) ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:45:14 GMT Message-ID: <992267114.20717.0.nnrp-01.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.staffpay.net X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.staffpay.net:212.240.95.129 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992267114 nnrp-01:20717 NO-IDENT mailgate.staffpay.net:212.240.95.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.staffpay.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83391 Karri Kalpio writes: : "John Carlyle-Clarke" writes: : > "Neil Franklin" wrote in message : > news:6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... : > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: : > > : > > The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM : ... : > Coincidentally, and dangerously close to being on-topic, that was the first : > and only machine I ever saw and used Logo on, if I am thinking of the same : > thing. It was an Amstrad with 3" floppies that ran CP/M iirc. About the : > only other thing I remember about it was Locoscript (sp?). : : You probably aren't... Amstrad PCW512 was an "almost" PC No. 1512 is a PC. The 8512 (and others: 8256, 9256, 9512, 9512+, 10) are the "personal word processor" you mention. : There was also the "personal word processor" or something : like that that also used floppies - I've never used such a box so : I'm not sure... but did it have a built-in word procesor software? Not built-in - the only built-in code is 256 bytes of bootstrap in the printer controller. It loads its OS from floppy - either LocoScript or CP/M. The Logo implementation on the PCW is, I think, a later version than on the CPC; its version number is 2.0. The graphical functions are all provided by a Resident System eXtension attached to LOGO.COM; it's possible to move Logo to systems with different graphics hardware by rewriting this module. -- John Elliott ###### From: "John Carlyle-Clarke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:35:44 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9fo2g9.svb.ln@pc69.comconnect> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6o52g9.4la.ln@pc69.comconnect> <87wv6jp3jj.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 46 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!pc69.comconnect!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83315 "Karri Kalpio" wrote in message news:87wv6jp3jj.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com... > "John Carlyle-Clarke" writes: > > > "Neil Franklin" wrote in message > > news:6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > > The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM > ... > > Coincidentally, and dangerously close to being on-topic, that was the first > > and only machine I ever saw and used Logo on, if I am thinking of the same > > thing. It was an Amstrad with 3" floppies that ran CP/M iirc. About the > > only other thing I remember about it was Locoscript (sp?). > > You probably aren't... Amstrad PCW512 was an "almost" PC > whereas boxes that ran e.g. Logo and CP/M were the CPC series. Oops! Yes, you are quite right. It was a CPC something. My memory is a bit vague, since I was about 11 at the time. > I'm not > sure if CPC464 did run CP/M but IIRC both CPC664 and CPC6128 did. > And CPC464 only came with a cassette drive, 664 & 6128 had 3" > floppies. This one had 3" floppies, no cassette. > There was also the "personal word processor" or something > like that that also used floppies - I've never used such a box so > I'm not sure... but did it have a built-in word procesor software? No, it ran Locoscript from floppy disk I think. Definitely not built in software. It was quite a fun machine to tinker with, but overall fairly useless. Still, compared to the BBC B and the CBM thing we had also, it was quite advanced. I liked the way the disks were double sided but had be manually turned over. Was this a common design, or a one-off with these Amstrad machines? > --karri (still a proud owner of an almost working CPC6128 ;-) ) ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:40:36 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 12 Message-ID: <20010611204036.438eed91.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3b1c59d2$0$251$45beb828@newscene.com> <9fo1g4$115$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p257.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992288522 32870 194.134.200.185 (11 Jun 2001 19:42:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:42:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83358 alt.sys.pdp10:5349 On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:11:05 +0100 "janS" wrote: > Basically, it suggests that the differences are due to video circuitry (e.g. > frame sync at 50Hz for US, 60Hz in UK. UK graphics mode resolutions are X x Those frame syncs are the wrong way about. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:42:42 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 15 Message-ID: <20010611204242.790fbcc7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p257.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992288522 32870 194.134.200.185 (11 Jun 2001 19:42:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:42:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83360 On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:31:05 +0100 Dave Daniels wrote: DD> seen elsewhere: if you want to add more disk drives or whatever to DD> the machine, you just add another layer to the case to hold the DD> addition hardware. You could end up with a desktop computer three I know where they got that from :) The Newbrain was designed that way not far from Acorn. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:44:20 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20010611204420.542e095b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p257.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992288523 32870 194.134.200.185 (11 Jun 2001 19:42:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:42:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83345 On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:41:01 +0100 hmv@port.ac.uk (Mike Meredith at home) wrote: MH> Some SGI's have well-designed cases that are easy to get into. MH> With my Indigo^2 :- MH> The CPU and the first bank of SIMMs can be got at by removing the MH> 5.25" drive cage (two screws). Doing all right up to here, that's two screws too many IMHO :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:47:55 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 12 Message-ID: <20010611204755.4f7611e7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <4a8709314fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <9fu8uj$o7@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p257.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992288524 32870 194.134.200.185 (11 Jun 2001 19:42:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:42:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83349 On 9 Jun 2001 23:45:39 +0100 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: TD> The Torch XXX was built like this, even to the extent that you can't That is one seriously rare beast, Torch did not last long after that went out the door - the design team was busy leaving at about the same time :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:51:33 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 23 Message-ID: <20010611205133.4ad9ac7a.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010605081201.5e82c16e.steveo@eircom.net> <20010605195404.22aede74.steveo@eircom.net> <9fo1g8$115$2@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <9foil0$jq@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p257.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992288528 32870 194.134.200.185 (11 Jun 2001 19:42:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:42:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83367 alt.sys.pdp10:5357 On 7 Jun 2001 19:54:24 +0100 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: TD> : Ah yes, the good ol' 8271. Never managed to get one for my original Beeb TD> TD> Indeed. It was probably chosen for the Beeb because it was also used in TD> the Acorn 'System' machines (which were 19" cardcages full of eurocards). The Beeb was a rework of the Proton - the unreleased follow up to the Atom. I believe (although I never saw the diagrams for the Proton) that the 8271 was a hang over from the Proton and nobody at Acorn noticed that it was getting rather hard to obtain (they had a few bins full of them of course). TD> not as a 32K one, it would appear you've got a RAM failure. Shouldn't be TD> hard to sort out. If you can find the chips :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: "Roger Johnstone" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:23:51 +1200 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p42-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 992330665 30879 203.173.222.170 (12 Jun 2001 07:24:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:24:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83285 alt.sys.pdp10:5335 In article <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > The PCW was an end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some > strange things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. Amstrad used the Hitachi 3" disk drive in the CPC and PCW computers. Unfortunately for them (and all the Amstrad owners) the Sony 3.5" disk became the standard. One advantage the Hitachi disk had was that like 5.25" disks it could be flipped over to use both sides in a single-sided drive. Capacity was only 180KB per side. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - Future Cop:LAPD - Warcraft II http://homepage.mac.com/rojaws ______________________________________________________________________ from the Red Dwarf III episode "The Last Day" Kryten: No Silicon Heaven? Preposterous! Where would all the calculators go? ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:55:26 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 55 Message-ID: <9g4vtv$iet$1@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net> References: <992267114.20717.0.nnrp-01.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host94.bjss.co.uk X-Trace: newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net 992346879 18909 194.152.80.94 (12 Jun 2001 11:54:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2001 11:54:39 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83268 wrote in message news:992267114.20717.0.nnrp-01.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk... > : > : You probably aren't... Amstrad PCW512 was an "almost" PC > > No. 1512 is a PC. The 8512 (and others: 8256, 9256, 9512, 9512+, 10) > are the "personal word processor" you mention. I'd call it an almost-PC myself. It ran just about all software, but contained some really odd non-standard hardware. The power supply was in the monitor. The monitor was connected to the base unit by two thick DIN plugs, one for power and the other for video. They keyboard used different hardware, having some programmable keys. It was not possible to run a standard version of MS-DOS on the machine and get KEYB to work, and if you wanted a UK keyboard mapping you had to run either DOS+ or MS-DOS 3.2, both of which were supplied with the machine. They keyboard connector was also a non-standard pseudo-DIN plug. The mouse appeared to run from the same controller, and the two mouse buttons were mapped to keys. The video display was CGA based, but also had a 640x200x16 colour mode, only really supported by the version of GEM that came with the machine. > : There was also the "personal word processor" or something > : like that that also used floppies - I've never used such a box so > : I'm not sure... but did it have a built-in word procesor software? > > Not built-in - the only built-in code is 256 bytes of bootstrap > in the printer controller. It loads its OS from floppy - either LocoScript > or CP/M. > The Logo implementation on the PCW is, I think, a later version than on > the CPC; its version number is 2.0. The graphical functions are all > provided by a Resident System eXtension attached to LOGO.COM; it's > possible to move Logo to systems with different graphics hardware by > rewriting this module. There was another Amstrad WP released sometime in the last 5 years or so, as I remember seeing one in a branch of Dixons close to my the place of work. Had some form of GUI interface AFAIK. Anyone got more info? ###### From: Will Salt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 12 Jun 2001 17:07:23 +0100 Organization: Pretty disorganised Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6o52g9.4la.ln@pc69.comconnect> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-243-149.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!candle.btinternet.com!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83375 "John Carlyle-Clarke" writes: > "Neil Franklin" wrote in message > news:6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > The Amstrad PCW512 also used such an scheme. The only ROM > > in the entire machine was inside the microcontroller that (in software!) > > implemented its floppy disk controller. > > > > Coincidentally, and dangerously close to being on-topic, that was the first > and only machine I ever saw and used Logo on, if I am thinking of the same > thing. It was an Amstrad with 3" floppies that ran CP/M iirc. About the > only other thing I remember about it was Locoscript (sp?). The Amstrad CPC machines also came with Logo; the CPC6128 came with two versions of Digital Research Logo, one for CP/M 3 and the other for CP/M 2.2. -- Will Salt ###### From: strpic@bofhlet.net (Vid Strpic) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 12 Jun 2001 22:53:48 GMT Organization: ELF is not Tolkien's Lines: 39 Approved: The Croatian BOFH Team member and founder Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6o52g9.4la.ln@pc69.comconnect> <87wv6jp3jj.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zg03-203.dialin.iskon.hr X-Trace: sunce.iskon.hr 992407238 23474 213.191.135.204 (13 Jun 2001 04:40:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@iskon.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 04:40:38 GMT X-CDROM: Ultraplex 40TS X-No-Archive: yes X-Attribution: Vid X-Troll: no Mail-Copies-To: never X-IPv4: c31dd89e User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.hinet.hr!Iskon!lorien!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83462 Karri Kalpio said unto us in alt.folklore.computers : > "John Carlyle-Clarke" writes: >> Coincidentally, and dangerously close to being on-topic, that was the first >> and only machine I ever saw and used Logo on, if I am thinking of the same >> thing. It was an Amstrad with 3" floppies that ran CP/M iirc. About the >> only other thing I remember about it was Locoscript (sp?). > You probably aren't... Amstrad PCW512 was an "almost" PC PCW8512? I still have one, although it's pretty out of order now :(( There also was 8256, amount of RAM in kilobytes. 8512 also had 'quad-density floppy' which had ~720 Kb (dual-headed drive), 8256 only one single-headed, ~170 Kb per side, IIRC. > whereas boxes that ran e.g. Logo and CP/M were the CPC series. I'm not > sure if CPC464 did run CP/M but IIRC both CPC664 and CPC6128 did. IIRC, not without additional floppy, and even then only 2.x, CP/M 3.0 wanted 61 Kb TPA, which CPC 464 couldn't give. > And CPC464 only came with a cassette drive, 664 & 6128 had 3" > floppies. There was also the "personal word processor" or something > like that that also used floppies - I've never used such a box so > I'm not sure... but did it have a built-in word procesor software? Was on diskette. Name - Locoscript :) I've written my school graduate paper in it :) > --karri (still a proud owner of an almost working CPC6128 ;-) ) Heh, almost :-)) Well, I've even written a few games in it's BASIC. Who knows are those floppies readable now, and I also lack the RS-232 controller, which would allow me to transfer the stuff on some other machine, for archiving, and somesuch. -- Vid Strpic, IRC:*@Martin, strpic@bofhlet.net, /bin/zsh. (I don't speak for my employer, just for myself.) ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 13 Jun 2001 00:45:36 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9g69j0$11h@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010611205133.4ad9ac7a.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992393052 nnrp-01:14477 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83422 alt.sys.pdp10:5367 Steve O'Hara-Smith (steveo@eircom.net) wrote: : TD> not as a 32K one, it would appear you've got a RAM failure. Shouldn't be : TD> hard to sort out. : If you can find the chips :) OK, sometimes I forget that not everyone has a room of obscure chips and other parts.... The RAMs are 4816s. Single-supply rail (+5V only) 16K*1 DRAMs. One possible source of these is IBM-clone CGA cards -- I've got at least one CGA card with 4816s on it (no, it's not up for grags, I am _using_ it). If you can't get the right chips, stick in a 4164 (64K*1 DRAM), the type using 7 bit refresh, and tie the unused address pin (pin 9 IIRC) to either ground or Vcc. That will use 1/4 of the chip (remember these parts have a multiplexed address so each address pin carries 2 bits of the address), or 16K. And if you can't find 4164s, you're not looking. -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 13 Jun 2001 00:51:04 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9g69t8$120@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <992267114.20717.0.nnrp-01.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk> <9g4vtv$iet$1@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992393054 nnrp-01:14477 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83419 Paul Grayson (mu0yc3@hotmail.com) wrote: : They keyboard used different hardware, having some programmable : keys. It was not possible to run a standard version of MS-DOS on the : machine and get KEYB to work, and if you wanted a UK keyboard : mapping you had to run either DOS+ or MS-DOS 3.2, both of which were : supplied with the machine. They keyboard connector was also a : non-standard pseudo-DIN plug. The mouse appeared to run from the : same controller, and the two mouse buttons were mapped to keys. Certainly on the PC2086 (a later Amstrad XT-almost-clone), the mouse buttons _were_ keys. The mouse was a quadrature-output unit (like a bus mouse) using a DE9 connector. The quadrature signals (mouse movement, basically) went to one of the gate arrays on the motherboard. The signals from the buttons went from the DE9 connector on the motherboard to 2 pins on the keyboard connector. This was a 6 pin DIN plug, with 4 of the pins being the normal keyboard signals (+5V, ground, clock, data), the other 2 being the mouse buttons. From there, the button signals went down the keyboard cable to the (8048 IIRC) microcontroller in the keyboard. This chip treated them like keypresses and sent the appropriate data back along the data line for a button down or button up event. It was up to software to detect those 'keypresses' and treat them as mouse buttons. -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 13 Jun 2001 00:57:34 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9g6a9f$12f@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992393055 nnrp-01:14477 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83426 alt.sys.pdp10:5368 Roger Johnstone (rojaws@mac.com) wrote: : In article <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin : wrote: : > The PCW was an end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some : > strange things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. : Amstrad used the Hitachi 3" disk drive in the CPC and PCW computers. Were they actually Hitachi drives? I know Hitachi made 3" drives, but the ones I've seen were nothing like the Amstrad units (I have the service manuals for both...) : Unfortunately for them (and all the Amstrad owners) the Sony 3.5" disk : became the standard. One advantage the Hitachi disk had was that like 5.25" : disks it could be flipped over to use both sides in a single-sided drive. Yes, but there were true double-head drives as well. These worked like most double-sided drives, and stored 360K (on a 40 cylinder unit) or 720K (on an 80 cylinder unit). One problem was that the double-head drive and the single-head drive with the flippy disk were not compatible :-(. You couldn't read Side 1 of the flippy disk with the disk the normal way up in the double head drive because the disk was effectivly spinning the other way from the way it was spinning when it was written. And you couldn't turn the disk over because there was a piece of metal in the drive that fitted into a notch in the disk and ensured it was the right way up. IIRC, Amstrad used single-head 40 cylinder units (with flippy disks) and dual-head 80 cylinder units. It was conventional for drive A: of a PCW to be the former and drive B: the latter (!). But double-head 40 cylinder drives exist -- I am using a couple here (not in Amstrad machines, though). : Capacity was only 180KB per side. Yes, just like a single-sided 40 cylinder MS-DOS disk (or something similar). There were double-head 80 cylinder drives that got 720K on a disk (and where you didn't flip the disk over). -tony ###### From: Jeff Teunissen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en-US, en Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.13.35.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 992422802 24.13.35.106 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:00:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:00:02 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83480 alt.sys.pdp10:5401 Bruce Bergman wrote: > On 08 Jun 2001 23:44:21 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > >Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an > >end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some strange > >things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. > > The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 > they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... That be a 6502, no? -- | Jeff Teunissen -=- Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing -=- deek @ d2dc.net | GPG: 1024D/9840105A 7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B 161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/ | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/ ###### From: Manuel Polik Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:54:13 +0200 Organization: [neXgo] the next generation online Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3B273845.EFE1822D@neulandmm.de> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.180.178.227 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsread2.nexgo.de 5419 NG Y3liZXJnb3Ro X-Complaints-To: abuse@germany.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 09:56:47 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.nexgo.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83412 alt.sys.pdp10:5365 Jeff Teunissen wrote: > > Bruce Bergman wrote: > > > On 08 Jun 2001 23:44:21 +0200, Neil Franklin > > wrote: > > > > >Actually a cool hack at chip saving, somehow. The PCW was an > > >end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some strange > > >things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. > > > > The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 > > they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... > That be a 6502, no? No, the Z80 in the Game Boy is a Z80, not a 6502. :-) Greetings, Manuel ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:27:48 GMT Message-ID: <992428068.24615.0.nnrp-02.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.staffpay.net X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.staffpay.net:212.240.95.129 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992428068 nnrp-02:24615 NO-IDENT mailgate.staffpay.net:212.240.95.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.staffpay.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83476 "Paul Grayson" writes: : There was another Amstrad WP released sometime in the last 5 years : or so, as I remember seeing one in a branch of Dixons close to my : the place of work. Had some form of GUI interface AFAIK. Anyone got : more info? The PCW16. 16MHz Z80clone, 1Mb RAM, 1Mb flash. The screen is sort-of VGA (640x480 mono; the ASIC can also do 320x480x4colours and 160x480x16colours, but the CRT only displays the "green" component of the colour). All the other peripherals (keyboard, RTC, FDC, parallel and serial ports) are provided by a "super-IO" chip of the type used in PCs; so the keyboard, mouse, floppy drive etc. are all standard PC components. Apparently the two serial ports share an IRQ (ie they are COM1 and COM3, not COM1 and COM2). The power switch is "soft" and, when pressed, frobs the Ring Indicator on one of the COM ports. The flash is set up so the bottom 64k can't be reprogrammed without external hardware (which plugs into the underside of the PCW). That way if there's a nasty crash, the PCW will still be able to reload the rest of its OS from floppy. The OS is called Rosanne. It has a menu bar at the top of the screen, like MacOS, and supports dialogs and various controls, but not, as far as I can see, overlapping windows. The builtin software includes a word processor, a spreadsheet, a diary and a calculator. Rosanne uses DOS-format discs, but creates its own flat filesystem on top of the DOS structure - see for the bizarre details. There also exists a CP/M implementation (written by me). The main board has space on it for an extra 1Mb RAM, 1Mb flash, hard drive controller and VGA interface. I think a few people have managed to upgrade the RAM, but it's not a nice process. -- John Elliott ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:01:15 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9g7h47$lu2$1@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net> References: <992428068.24615.0.nnrp-02.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host94.bjss.co.uk X-Trace: newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net 992430023 22466 194.152.80.94 (13 Jun 2001 11:00:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 11:00:23 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83488 wrote in message news:992428068.24615.0.nnrp-02.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk... > "Paul Grayson" writes: > : There was another Amstrad WP released sometime in the last 5 years > : or so, as I remember seeing one in a branch of Dixons close to my > : the place of work. Had some form of GUI interface AFAIK. Anyone got > : more info? > > The PCW16. 16MHz Z80clone, 1Mb RAM, 1Mb flash. The screen is sort-of VGA > (640x480 mono; the ASIC can also do 320x480x4colours and 160x480x16colours, > but the CRT only displays the "green" component of the colour). So essentially a new 8-bit micro, anachronistic for 1994. I want one! ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 13 Jun 2001 08:53:03 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83439 alt.sys.pdp10:5383 Jeff Teunissen writes: >>The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 >>they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... >That be a 6502, no? No, you're thinking of the original NES. The Game Boy is Z80 (but the SNES is a 65816, a 16-bit 6502, which is nice). -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### From: Karri Kalpio Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 13 Jun 2001 17:00:06 +0300 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 37 Message-ID: <87r8wopjix.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9g6a9f$12f@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: leeloo.dallas.multipass.moremagic.com X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 992440831 16229 195.163.185.138 (13 Jun 2001 14:00:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 14:00:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83466 alt.sys.pdp10:5399 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Roger Johnstone (rojaws@mac.com) wrote: > : In article <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > : wrote: > > : > The PCW was an end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some > : > strange things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. > > : Amstrad used the Hitachi 3" disk drive in the CPC and PCW computers. > > Were they actually Hitachi drives? I know Hitachi made 3" drives, but the > ones I've seen were nothing like the Amstrad units (I have the service > manuals for both...) Well, if they weren't, they were a good enough imitation... One could use Hitachi drives as secondary drive with Amstrads. I think I still have a copy of MikroBitti (local computer magazine) with instructions how to do that. > : Capacity was only 180KB per side. > > Yes, just like a single-sided 40 cylinder MS-DOS disk (or something > similar). There were double-head 80 cylinder drives that got 720K on a > disk (and where you didn't flip the disk over). Almost correct... The capacity that was used was 180KB per side. However, the capacity of the disk and the drive were slightly bigger, IIRC 196KB. --karri -- /"\ : Karri Kalpio \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign : karri@moremagic.com X Against HTML Mail : [+358] (40) 5926895 (mobile) / \ : [+358] (9) 75111771 (work) ###### From: Karri Kalpio Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 13 Jun 2001 17:07:07 +0300 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 21 Message-ID: <87ofrspj78.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6o52g9.4la.ln@pc69.comconnect> <87wv6jp3jj.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: leeloo.dallas.multipass.moremagic.com X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 992441227 16229 195.163.185.138 (13 Jun 2001 14:07:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 14:07:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83463 strpic@bofhlet.net (Vid Strpic) writes: > Was on diskette. Name - Locoscript :) I've written my school graduate > paper in it :) ...that was also called Amsword, I think. Or was that something else? I _do_ remember that Amsword was originally sold with another name... There was also a word processor built in Finland that was far superior to the other alternatives (was that called "Sanastin"?). And no, I did not write my school graduate paper in it but I did a lot of other school papers in CPC... ;-) --karri -- /"\ : Karri Kalpio \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign : karri@moremagic.com X Against HTML Mail : [+358] (40) 5926895 (mobile) / \ : [+358] (9) 75111771 (work) ###### From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 13 Jun 2001 22:53:40 +0800 Organization: University Computer Club Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> X-Trace: enyo.uwa.edu.au 992444021 20688 130.95.13.17 (13 Jun 2001 14:53:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uwa.edu.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83465 alt.sys.pdp10:5397 Cameron Kaiser writes: >No, you're thinking of the original NES. The Game Boy is Z80 (but the SNES >is a 65816, a 16-bit 6502, which is nice). "Nice" if you like processors that have mode bits which change not only the meaning, but the length of ordinary instructions. The D ("decimal" - makes the ALU work in BCD) flag on the 6502 can only be forgiven because nobody ever used it. John ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3B278176.C31FE6FA@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:11:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 992445099 24.186.100.134 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:11:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:11:39 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83461 alt.sys.pdp10:5393 John West McKenna wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >No, you're thinking of the original NES. The Game Boy is Z80 (but the SNES > >is a 65816, a 16-bit 6502, which is nice). > > "Nice" if you like processors that have mode bits which change not only the > meaning, but the length of ordinary instructions. > > The D ("decimal" - makes the ALU work in BCD) flag on the 6502 can only be > forgiven because nobody ever used it. I have, but can't remember why... aak ###### From: Manuel Polik Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:19:35 +0200 Organization: [neXgo] the next generation online Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3B278487.D8B9DB23@neulandmm.de> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.180.178.227 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsread2.nexgo.de 25647 NG Y3liZXJnb3Ro X-Complaints-To: abuse@germany.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2001 15:22:09 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.nexgo.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83413 alt.sys.pdp10:5366 John West McKenna wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >No, you're thinking of the original NES. The Game Boy is Z80 (but the SNES > >is a 65816, a 16-bit 6502, which is nice). > > "Nice" if you like processors that have mode bits which change not only the > meaning, but the length of ordinary instructions. > The D ("decimal" - makes the ALU work in BCD) flag on the 6502 can only be > forgiven because nobody ever used it. 99% all Atari VCS games use it and I'd assume that 99% of all C64 games would use it too. Coding a score display in the normal mode would just suck. And I'd like to see 1 (one) example of how the 'D' flag can influence the 'length of an instruction'. (Doesn't even need to be an ordinary one :-)) Maybe you just never understood how it worked? Greetings, Manuel ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3B2788A5.B4610EBA@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <3B278487.D8B9DB23@neulandmm.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:41:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 992446902 24.186.100.134 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:41:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:41:42 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83460 alt.sys.pdp10:5391 Manuel Polik wrote: > > > "Nice" if you like processors that have mode bits which change not only the > > meaning, but the length of ordinary instructions. > > The D ("decimal" - makes the ALU work in BCD) flag on the 6502 can only be > > forgiven because nobody ever used it. > > 99% all Atari VCS games use it and I'd assume that 99% of all C64 games > would use it too. Coding a score display in the normal mode would just > suck. THAT's why I used it - I did some development with Atari on the Atari 2600 game system. aak ###### From: Glenn Saunders Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Organization: Cyberpunks Entertainment Reply-To: cybpunks@mediaone.net Message-ID: References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 38 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:17:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.165.162.215 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.we.rr.com 992449078 24.165.162.215 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:17:58 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:17:58 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!cyclone-LA3.rr.com!typhoon.we.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83481 alt.sys.pdp10:5402 On Tue, 29 May 2001 18:02:24 -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > No it is just 8 bits are too small for a comfortable CPU design. > Assume 4 registers - AC , Stack , Index and Pc are needed in modern > designs as well as byte/word operations. A very quick design. My gosh all this revisionist history! If these CPUs were no good, it's sure surprising how much they were used. The 6502 in particular was used heavily from its inception in the mid 70s up to the final days of the redesigned NES 8-bit in the early 90s. The fact is that minimum requirements for CPUs have increased dramatically from the 70s. The CPUs of the 70s were more than adequate for the types of general purpose computing going on at the time. As far as leaving room for the instruction set, at least in the 6502, the official instruction set doesn't even use up all the available bits. So it's not like an 8-bit word size was a limiting factor. >Speaking of 6809, I think the one thing that killed the 6809 as >useful cpu is that it was targeted for Games. Look at the Radio Shack >Color Computer - had it had a real serial port and a real floppy/HD >expansion bus the 8 bit micros could of lasted a few more years. Let's face it. The microcomputer itself became associated mostly with kids, who used their home computers primarily for games and hacking projects. The middle aged adults of the time were NOT the early adopters of microcomputers. It wasn't until the PC network started replacing mainframe/terminals at the office that microcomputing "grew up" so to speak. Very few adults and companies were using the first generation of home computers for serious business work, despite Visicalc, etc... ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 01 08:09:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZouUfx/mkxD735JZtGG9C4Wm8/QNFyuh+DE8hrYWBYoUVPPh8ZKp+u X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2001 10:44:25 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-240 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83508 alt.sys.pdp10:5410 In article <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:17:58 GMT >Glenn Saunders wrote: >GS> Let's face it. The microcomputer itself became associated mostly with >GS> kids, who used their home computers primarily for games and hacking >GS> projects. The middle aged adults of the time were NOT the early >GS> adopters of microcomputers. > > Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very >much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. > Not from the secretary's point of view. Anything got rid of carbon paper and ditto machines were welcomed with open arms. The problem was that bean counters and most managers had to have the stuff on paper that they could see and touch. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3B1F8D40.A066778F@ev1.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 07:18:41 -0700 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net> <9fm3eh$1v46@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: c1656384-a.plano1.tx.home.com X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 991916334 c1656384-a.plano1.tx.home.com (7 Jun 2001 07:18:54 -0500) Lines: 19 X-Authenticated-User: richmond Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83577 alt.sys.pdp10:5432 "Prof. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article <3b19b214.31582947@news.shuswap.net>, > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > > There were many more Radio Shack systems out there. Apple > >fanatics were just louder. > > Very early, yes. I recal a point where RS had shipped 200,000 units to > Apple's 100,000. But after that, RS quickly fell behind and stayed > there. > Supposedly, the explosion of Apple ][ sales was due to Visicalc...many people bought an Apple ][ just to run Visicalc... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:01:04 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 33 Message-ID: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p532.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992459435 26176 194.134.201.96 (13 Jun 2001 19:10:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:10:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83549 alt.sys.pdp10:5419 On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:17:58 GMT Glenn Saunders wrote: GS> On Tue, 29 May 2001 18:02:24 -0600, Ben Franchuk GS> wrote: GS> > No it is just 8 bits are too small for a comfortable CPU design. GS> If these CPUs were no good, it's sure surprising how much they were These two statements are *not* equivalent. Eight bits *is* too small for comfortable CPU design, as long as you are willing to put up with a bit of discomfort (read non-orthogonality and other compromises) there are (it was shown in the 70s) many ways of making *useful* eight bit architectures. GS> dramatically from the 70s. The CPUs of the 70s were more than GS> adequate for the types of general purpose computing going on at the GS> time. A Z80 was totally useless for running the weather models of the 70s. There was plenty enough computing going on in the 70s that was too much for an eight bit micro. GS> Let's face it. The microcomputer itself became associated mostly with GS> kids, who used their home computers primarily for games and hacking GS> projects. The middle aged adults of the time were NOT the early GS> adopters of microcomputers. Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 13 Jun 2001 20:07:08 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <9g8dks$oo@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <9g6a9f$12f@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <87r8wopjix.fsf@batcave.moremagic.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992464282 nnrp-02:11773 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83515 Karri Kalpio (karri@batcave.moremagic.com) wrote: : > : Amstrad used the Hitachi 3" disk drive in the CPC and PCW computers. : > : > Were they actually Hitachi drives? I know Hitachi made 3" drives, but the : > ones I've seen were nothing like the Amstrad units (I have the service : > manuals for both...) : Well, if they weren't, they were a good enough imitation... One could : use Hitachi drives as secondary drive with Amstrads. I think I am not suprised you could do that. The Hitachi drives I have seen have an electrically indentical interface to a normal 5.25" drive (that is to say one turning at 300 rpm). A 34 pin card edge for the logic signals and a 4 pin power connector. The 'Amstrad' drives have a strange 26 pin header connector. But the signals are the same as you'd find on any other normal-ish disk drive interface. So it should be possible to use a Hitachi 3" drive (or, indeed, a 5.25" drive or 3.5" drive) just by making up a cable to put the signals on the right pins. Given the service manuals (and Amstrad service manuals are not hard to get), it would be very easy to work out how to do it. For reference the pinout of the Amstrad disk drive connector is : 1-25 (odd numbers) : Ground 2 : Index 4 : Drive Select 0 6 : Drive Select 1 8 : Motor On 10 : Head movement direction select 12 : Head Step Pulse 14 : Write Data 16 : Write Gate 18 : Track 00 20 : Write Protect 22 : Read Data 24 : Side Select (for double-head drives) 26 : Ready -tony ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:10:10 +0100 Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: <8kefit4omimvcjusnsn04hcn8i5chhftbp@4ax.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: zb32-s15-167-233-74.cw-visp.com X-Trace: 13 Jun 2001 19:14:15 GMT, zb32-s15-167-233-74.cw-visp.com Lines: 23 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!zb32-s15-167-233-74.cw-visp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83491 alt.sys.pdp10:5404 On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:23:51 +1200, "Roger Johnstone" in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >In article <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > wrote: > >> The PCW was an end-of-Z80-CPU-life word processing system. Had also some >> strange things like 3" or 3.25" (not 3.5"!) floppies. > >Amstrad used the Hitachi 3" disk drive in the CPC and PCW computers. >Unfortunately for them (and all the Amstrad owners) the Sony 3.5" disk >became the standard. The Sony disk was already the standard, and Alan S. bought otherwise unsaleable 3" drives at a bargain basement price. I'm not knocking Amstrad here, those cheap 'n' cheerful word processors, sold at about the cost of a good office typewriter, were the start of the "IT Revolution" for many small companies. Worked wonders for his share price too, for a short time.... Regards, David P. ###### From: cinnamon@one.net (atholbrose) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: standing on a hill Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:46:12 CDT X-Trace: sv3-mGsio9Ael+WYkV0rusmZrZ22Y4uI482odx+WCWX74Y3e1Nr1p2HCnnoH4OwPZOVvPxquV5/19X/uFvP!F0jcmqGZsAG9084LPQv+Y18KonPANcNTVDMfrydQxtep1tUBOw3JKaxVVahw8S8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:46:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news3.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!cinnamon Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83563 alt.sys.pdp10:5430 On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:34:16 -0400, Michael Black wrote: >Nobody has mentioned those systems when talking about the 6809. The >CoCo popularized the 6809 in a way that those big systems couldn't >If the CoCo hadn't been sold as a game machine, we probably wouldn't >have had such a computer, and most likely not so very cheap. The CoCo was definitely where I learned 6809 programming. Whoa, those were fun times; an assembler on a game pak, output to audio tape, all that kind of stuff. At the time I was obsessed with adventure games -- a genre well-represented on the CoCo -- and wrote about a dozen such games, finishing only two. They had pretty decent parsers -- better than the games implemented in BASIC, anyways, and no damned flashing cursors either. I am also suprised that nobody on this thread has mentioned the CoCo LOGO implementation, which threw out about half of the list processing directives (?) but added multitasking (?!) via the HATCH command. 'Twas great fun to implement a complicated drawing (about all you could really do with the thing), calling one subroutine at a time, and then write a main routine to HATCH all the subroutines at once... ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 13 Jun 2001 15:22:04 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3b27cac8$0$843$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <3B278487.D8B9DB23@neulandmm.de> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.novia.net.MISMATCH!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83533 alt.sys.pdp10:5418 Manuel Polik writes: >>>No, you're thinking of the original NES. The Game Boy is Z80 (but the SNES >>>is a 65816, a 16-bit 6502, which is nice). [John West McKenna wrote:] >>"Nice" if you like processors that have mode bits which change not only the >>meaning, but the length of ordinary instructions. >>The D ("decimal" - makes the ALU work in BCD) flag on the 6502 can only be >>forgiven because nobody ever used it. >And I'd like to see 1 (one) example of how the 'D' flag can influence >the 'length of an instruction'. I think the previous poster was referring to the '816 E flag, but that's a necessary evil for backwards compatibility and I find it acceptable myself. I don't know too many processors that bridge 8-bit and 16-bit modes in the same CPU with the same instruction set (not new addressing modes) and can do that in any other way than setting processor flags or some other mode indicator, but I'm always willing to be enlightened. As for the D flag, I think Atari BASIC, for one, used BCD for floating point operations. So did many financial programs -- it was just much easier to work with than going binary'n'back. Commodore BASIC didn't; it used binary floating point representations, which had some quirks as well as advantages. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### Message-ID: <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:09:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.188.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 992466565 12.79.188.226 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:09:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:09:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83494 alt.sys.pdp10:5406 On Tue, 29 May 2001 18:02:24 -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > No it is just 8 bits are too small for a comfortable CPU design. > Assume 4 registers - AC , Stack , Index and Pc are needed in modern > designs as well as byte/word operations. A very quick design. On that basis the 8080 meets all requirements. AC Stack Index PC hl sp bc pc indexing revolves around xchg; dad bc; xchg and de is the indexed pointer. stack offsets via "dad sp" All you need is a few macros to make the assembly source read very well. I always considered the 8080 a 16 bit machine with an 8 bit bus interface. The 8086 is still the same animal with relocation registers. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@my-deja.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) http://www.qwikpages.com/backstreets/cbfalconer :=(down for now) (Remove "NOSPAM." from reply address. my-deja works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:53:21 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <8kefit4omimvcjusnsn04hcn8i5chhftbp@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992476412 nnrp-12:10309 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83517 alt.sys.pdp10:5413 According to David Powell : > The Sony disk was already the standard, and Alan S. bought otherwise > unsaleable 3" drives at a bargain basement price. I'm not knocking > Amstrad here, those cheap 'n' cheerful word processors, sold at about One thing that still surprises me, given Amstrad's "cheap'n'cheerful" image that's been fairly well ingrained over the years is just how solidly built the CPC machines appeared to be. Never actually looked inside one, and I think I heard somewhere that the innards were a bit horrible, but at least the case & keyboard were a hell of a lot more sturdy than much of the competition. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### Message-ID: <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:02:41 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.45 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 992493926 207.153.6.45 (Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:45:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:45:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83497 alt.sys.pdp10:5407 CBFalconer wrote: > On that basis the 8080 meets all requirements. > > AC Stack Index PC > hl sp bc pc > > indexing revolves around > xchg; dad bc; xchg > and de is the indexed pointer. > > stack offsets via "dad sp" > > All you need is a few macros to make the assembly source read very > well. I always considered the 8080 a 16 bit machine with an 8 bit > bus interface. The 8086 is still the same animal with relocation > registers. The problem is 64Kb is not a lot of memory. That is why threaded code (Forth),p-code (pascal),and token Basic was popular.they saved a lot of space. As for what I think of the 8086 fire & brimstone come to mind. 18 bits really is the minimum size for anything other than a "toy" computer.That is not to you can't have "small programs" that do a lot. My favorite editor for dos boot disks is t.com, small editor for the 8086 that is 4096 bytes long exactly.The problem is any program that needs more than 64kb data and code segments is a pain in the rear. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 01 08:16:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <9gcpbi$ch7$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVawW8MJam4yDfOSJA8Hp7yCp8GVmGh+DFjq9paKoJB4Z04qj0RirmRs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 10:51:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-210 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83648 alt.sys.pdp10:5448 In article <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jun 01 08:09:33 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very >> >much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. >> > >> Not from the secretary's point of view. Anything got rid of > > We met different secretaries :) the first ten minutes usually cured >the fear but getting that first ten minutes could be difficult. That's why you explain how carbon paper can disappear before you have them even seeing the machine. How do you think I got all of DEC's writers to "convert" to on-line documentation? You chat them up talking about how absolutely relieved you are that you don't have to deal with [fill in the blank of the most PITA aspect of the job]. Most writers didn't take much yakking. There was one who took a full year but by that time all of her fellow writers had converted with some of them even doing the writing on-line making my function obsolete. I talked to that difficult writer last year. She finally took a programming course and had a job programming. Now she understands the subtle aspects that I couldn't get through her head in 1972. > >> carbon paper and ditto machines were welcomed with open arms. >> The problem was that bean counters and most managers had to >> have the stuff on paper that they could see and touch. > > To be fair the main fears were found among accountants and such as >well as among people who managed those that did the actual work. > Of course accountants. They knew they had to have a piece of paper to prove every brush stroke. :-) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 01 08:18:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9gcpfu$ch7$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaVsh0cM3esGYLlrboroQ9k3xox52bACi4tUwzydWPigNA/ussXZjfW X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 10:53:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-210 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83649 alt.sys.pdp10:5449 In article , Mike Swaim wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very >>>much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. >>> >> Not from the secretary's point of view. Anything got rid of >> carbon paper and ditto machines were welcomed with open arms. > > Not to mention the retyping. When I was in High School, and worked in >the local University Physics Lab, I was told that the secretaries loved >the mainframe, and had quite a few macros to make their lives easier. > Oh, yeah. Especially if there's a lot of numbers in the text. You should have been in the room when a manager stopped by and said, "I forgot to give you this for that 120 page report." But they waited until the guy left before letting loose. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3B28405F.3F8D4562@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:41:03 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.52 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 992557106 207.153.6.52 (Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:18:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:18:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83607 alt.sys.pdp10:5436 Eric Smith wrote: > Before that, we had entire useful operating systems (better than MS-DOS) > that fit in 8K*12 (equivalent to 12K bytes) with plenty of room left for > applications. Funny I thought the os would swap from the disk, using only 128 bytes for the system device handler. I like 12 bit cpu's if notice my web site. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. ###### From: Adam Sampson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 14 Jun 2001 19:23:06 +0100 Organization: The Society Of People Who Repeatedly Point Out That "alot" And "allot" Are Both Wrong, And It Should Be Written "a lot" Lines: 14 Sender: azz@cartman.azz.us-lot.org Message-ID: <87y9qugbud.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3B273845.EFE1822D@neulandmm.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: raptor.ukc.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: athena.ukc.ac.uk 992551541 7881 129.12.4.232 (14 Jun 2001 20:45:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ukc.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:45:41 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!athena.ukc.ac.uk!cartman.azz.us-lot.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83719 alt.sys.pdp10:5487 Manuel Polik writes: > > > The Z80 processor isn't quite dead yet - if it's the same Z80 > > > they're using in the Nintendo GameBoy... > > That be a 6502, no? > No, the Z80 in the Game Boy is a Z80, not a 6502. :-) Debatable. It's not really a Z80; it's got a slightly different instruction set (for instance, it's got a version of LD A,(HL) which postincrements HL in place of one of the other instructions---or, at least, that's what it looks like from reading Gameboy assembler). -- Adam Sampson ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 14 Jun 2001 11:34:24 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 14 Jun 2001 11:53:49 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83715 alt.sys.pdp10:5482 Ben Franchuk writes: > The problem is 64Kb is not a lot of memory. 64K bytes? What luxury! In the early days of microcomputers, we managed to make them do interesting and useful things with 8K bytes. Before that, we had entire useful operating systems (better than MS-DOS) that fit in 8K*12 (equivalent to 12K bytes) with plenty of room left for applications. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:57:04 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 22 Message-ID: <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p621.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992546226 93758 194.134.201.149 (14 Jun 2001 19:17:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:17:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83677 alt.sys.pdp10:5456 On Thu, 14 Jun 01 08:09:33 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very > >much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. > > > Not from the secretary's point of view. Anything got rid of We met different secretaries :) the first ten minutes usually cured the fear but getting that first ten minutes could be difficult. > carbon paper and ditto machines were welcomed with open arms. > The problem was that bean counters and most managers had to > have the stuff on paper that they could see and touch. To be fair the main fears were found among accountants and such as well as among people who managed those that did the actual work. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:16:07 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 54 Message-ID: <20010614211607.3d60268a.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p621.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992546227 93758 194.134.201.149 (14 Jun 2001 19:17:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:17:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83687 alt.sys.pdp10:5458 On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:02:41 -0600 Ben Franchuk wrote: BF> The problem is 64Kb is not a lot of memory. That is why threaded code I can *definitely* remember thinking of 64kb as a lot of memory, and not just on the basis of 'more than *I* can afford' but on the basis that the only computers I knew of with more memory than that were *big* and served many users. BF> (Forth),p-code (pascal),and token Basic was popular.they saved a lot BF> of space. Those and assembler too. I also recall Algol68C compiled for Z80 by the 370, compiling anything on the Z80 was iffy (then again I did a *lot* of Z80 BCPL at one stage). BF> As for what I think of the 8086 fire & brimstone come to mind. I reserve that for the idiot that decided to use the 8088 in the IBM PC instead of almost *anything* else on the market at the time. But yes the 8086 is *nasty*, only exceeded in nastiness by the 80286 :( BF> 18 bits really is the minimum size for anything other than a "toy" Damn, who was it who said something like 'I see no point in 16 bit microprocessors any task that can be performed with a microprocessor can be performed perfectly well be an 8 bit one' :) BF> computer.That is not to you can't have "small programs" that do a lot. BF> My favorite editor for dos boot disks is t.com, small editor for the 8086 BF> that is 4096 bytes long exactly.The problem is any program that needs BF> more than 64kb data and code segments is a pain in the rear. It certainly is, of course if you've only got 64Kb it's not a pain it's just too big and you'll have to find another way to do it :) One thing about small machines is they make you think very hard about what is *needed*. OTOH I am currently suffering a problem because the a tool I want to use keeps all it's data in one file and mmaps it and while pushing the dataset to 2Gb doesn't even slow it down, I can't make it any bigger because of OS limits and the job I want to do would push it to about 4Gb and growing. Oh yes I *know* there are plenty of systems capable of doing this, they just don't happen to include the ones I *have* to use, but the problem is not the point this is: Expectation increases with time as well as capability (but then we all know *that* - don't we). -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19pre17-idepci (i686)) Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:35:54 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-rEdYTq0qyjzLkUUTLDqRtf9+BXRLtdomeP+UdkfR+pUy/JsELcRZTjr0uUMDk15UtNZsA71wz2xfFZ6!SC/ty8AG+0b2c6ktjZfJuOf2zmArW2QhmZs/kfGcp9rtJzQ+nk2X24v9slhzMM+h8EzhUGJ2SsI4!wdk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:35:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83711 alt.sys.pdp10:5481 In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very >>much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. >> > Not from the secretary's point of view. Anything got rid of > carbon paper and ditto machines were welcomed with open arms. Not to mention the retyping. When I was in High School, and worked in the local University Physics Lab, I was told that the secretaries loved the mainframe, and had quite a few macros to make their lives easier. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer: I sometimes lie Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y, W & D ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 14 Jun 2001 19:39:26 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 49 Message-ID: <9gb3te$ofe$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!hanover.torolab.ibm.com!tornews.torolab.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83706 alt.sys.pdp10:5479 In , Eric Smith writes: >Ben Franchuk writes: >> The problem is 64Kb is not a lot of memory. > >64K bytes? What luxury! In the early days of microcomputers, we managed to >make them do interesting and useful things with 8K bytes. > >Before that, we had entire useful operating systems (better than MS-DOS) >that fit in 8K*12 (equivalent to 12K bytes) with plenty of room left for >applications. 64K? 64K?!? Oh, what I would have given for 64K at times! The smaller models of the IBM System/360, considered by some as the first truly great mainframe, shipped with far less than 64K! The IBM S/360 model 30, which is being discussed in another thread in this newsgroup, only had 64K as the maximum available storage on the F series machines. The C, D, and E series machines only had 8K, 16K, or 32K respectively. Here's a summary from a table in appendix D of the book 'Programming the IBM 360' by Clarence B. Germain (1967): 360 MODELS # Core Size 25 30 40 50 65 75 85 91-95 44 67 20 B 4K......X...........................................X. C 8K......X...X.......................................X. D 16K......X...X...X...................................X. E 32K......X...X...X...........................X......... F 64K..........X...X...X.......................X......... G 128K..............X...X...X...................X......... H 256K..............X...X...X...X...............X..X...... I 512K..................X...X...X...X..............X...... J 1024K..................X...X...X...X.....X........X...... K 2048K..............................X.....X........X...... L 4096K..............................X.....X............... 2361 1024K..................X...X...X......................... 2361 2048K..................X...X...X......................... CD 24K.................................................... DE 48K.................................................... Cycle time(uS) .9 1.5 2.5 2.0 .75 .75 1.04 .75-.125 1.0 .75 3.6 per _ bytes 2 1 2 4 8 8 16 8 4 8 1 Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:55:01 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 18 Message-ID: <20010614215501.74581a14.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9g4g38$u4v$1@lust.ihug.co.nz> <8kefit4omimvcjusnsn04hcn8i5chhftbp@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1415.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992550415 12001 194.134.170.140 (14 Jun 2001 20:26:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:26:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83678 alt.sys.pdp10:5457 On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:53:21 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> One thing that still surprises me, given Amstrad's "cheap'n'cheerful" CH> image that's been fairly well ingrained over the years is just how CH> solidly built the CPC machines appeared to be. Never actually looked CH> inside one, and I think I heard somewhere that the innards were a bit CH> horrible, but at least the case & keyboard were a hell of a lot more CH> sturdy than much of the competition. Needed to be for the market it was aimed at, basically those things replaced an awful lot of typewriters. They were pitched well to be attractive against electric typewriters which were starting to get smarts. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 14 Jun 2001 22:34:46 GMT Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9gbe66$1u9o@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83627 alt.sys.pdp10:5440 In article <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jun 01 08:09:33 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > Indeed, fear of the computer was a problem of the time that very >> >much slowed down acceptance in the office environment. >> Not from the secretary's point of view. Anything got rid of > We met different secretaries :) the first ten minutes usually cured >the fear but getting that first ten minutes could be difficult. ten minutes? wow :) WIth the original mac, apple spouted a claim of 26 minutes from cracking the carton to her first memo . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:56:00 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 992601501 mail2news:12501 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83735 alt.sys.pdp10:5490 In article eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com "Eric Smith" writes: > Ben Franchuk writes: > > The problem is 64Kb is not a lot of memory. > > 64K bytes? What luxury! In the early days of microcomputers, we managed to > make them do interesting and useful things with 8K bytes. 8Ki bytes? 'Twere luxury. I remember, purely for the heck of it, designing and building a darts scorer for my local pub. This used a 6802, with its inbuilt RAM (64 bytes, IIRC) and a 2Ki *bit* PROM in which I stored the entire code for this application. It did things like driving the LED digital display by scanning and multiplexing, took keyboard input (which allowed entry of individual dart scores for the cerebrally-challenged, even permitting the calculation of the doubles and trebles), had a correction facility, and could even allow one to step back through the scores to see each teams' "throw". It also automatically indicated whether the Home or Away team was "on the oche", and had separate displays for each team, and a third for the data entry. The publican was very pleased to get this, which gave him change out of a hundred quid, when less functional equipments were selling at about GBP 500. This would have been circa 1975, IIRC. (When did the 6802 come out, and more importantly, when was the Wireless World design for a PROM blower first published, for it were that which made me believe such a project to be feasible?) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 14 Jun 2001 21:22:52 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 14 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> <9gb3te$ofe$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992568174 3260 166.84.0.228 (15 Jun 2001 01:22:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2001 01:22:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.mathworks.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83693 alt.sys.pdp10:5459 glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com writes: > Here's a summary from a table in appendix D of the book 'Programming > the IBM 360' by Clarence B. Germain (1967): My (late senior year) girlfriend in high school bought me that as a separation gift at the end of the summer in 1969. I got my start with 360 assembler from that book, though I already knew Fortran IV, COBOL, and PL/1 by then. Great book. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> <9gb3te$ofe$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3B296B2A.FF76C6E7@Empire.Net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:31:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.11.85 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 992575863 209.245.11.85 (Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:31:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:31:03 PDT X-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:29:00 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83654 alt.sys.pdp10:5452 John Sauter writes: > One item in the chart surprised me: that you could > put a 2361 on a model 50. I didn't think the IBM > 360/50 had an external memory bus. > John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) i believe some number of 360/m50 machines had 8mbyte "ampex" memory. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Message-ID: <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:16:12 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.40 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 992618622 207.153.6.40 (Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:23:42 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:23:42 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83609 alt.sys.pdp10:5437 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > I remember, purely for the heck of it, designing and building a darts > scorer for my local pub. This used a 6802, with its inbuilt RAM (64 > bytes, IIRC) and a 2Ki *bit* PROM in which I stored the entire code for > this application. It did things like driving the LED digital display by > scanning and multiplexing, took keyboard input (which allowed entry of > individual dart scores for the cerebrally-challenged, even permitting the > calculation of the doubles and trebles), had a correction facility, and > could even allow one to step back through the scores to see each teams' > "throw". It also automatically indicated whether the Home or Away team > was "on the oche", and had separate displays for each team, and a third > for the data entry. > > The publican was very pleased to get this, which gave him change out of a > hundred quid, when less functional equipments were selling at about GBP > 500. This would have been circa 1975, IIRC. (When did the 6802 come > out, and more importantly, when was the Wireless World design for a PROM > blower first published, for it were that which made me believe such a > project to be feasible?) I was talking about a minimal general purpose machine. In general for a 8 bit CPU ( Ignoring ROM BASIC ) you needed 32kb of RAM for user programs and 8kb for the OS. What few CP/M programs I have seen ( Small C ver 1.0 and Fig Forth ) both hovered around the 32kb mark. Often since development work was done on a larger machine with a cross assembler one did see that 64kb is cramped memory size for program/OS development. I don't think unix would have been developed had the PDP-11 been not a very efficient architecture. Even then one went to a data/code segments for larger programs. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 01 09:04:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9gfgh4$60i$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> <9gcpbi$ch7$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010615194033.0b359eb6.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbooYOZ+3qH1pzwihSyNc46bYZYlA/94+DNNfHB8DqZDknPSn63RSZT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2001 11:39:16 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-110 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83773 alt.sys.pdp10:5496 In article <20010615194033.0b359eb6.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Fri, 15 Jun 01 08:16:28 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> > We met different secretaries :) the first ten minutes usually cured >> >the fear but getting that first ten minutes could be difficult. >> >> That's why you explain how carbon paper can disappear before you >> have them even seeing the machine. How do you think I got all > > Meet them twice ... luxury, that makes it *too* easy :) > That how us females work ;-). We have to be convinced that the shortcut is worth it before we take it. Hmmm...maybe that's why guys never ask for directions. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:38:37 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20010615193837.7961cd58.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> <9gbe66$1u9o@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1163.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992641480 44039 194.134.203.144 (15 Jun 2001 21:44:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:44:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83833 alt.sys.pdp10:5513 On 14 Jun 2001 22:34:46 GMT hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Prof. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: PH> ten minutes? wow :) PH> PH> WIth the original mac, apple spouted a claim of 26 minutes from cracking PH> the carton to her first memo . . . You miss the point, it took ten minutes to get them to *touch* the thing and realise it didn't hurt or break. Learning to do anything took the rest of the morning - but then I am recalling introducing UNIPLEX to them :). -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:40:33 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20010615194033.0b359eb6.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <9ga4i9$b44$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> <9gcpbi$ch7$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1163.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992641481 44039 194.134.203.144 (15 Jun 2001 21:44:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:44:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83841 alt.sys.pdp10:5516 On Fri, 15 Jun 01 08:16:28 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > We met different secretaries :) the first ten minutes usually cured > >the fear but getting that first ten minutes could be difficult. > > That's why you explain how carbon paper can disappear before you > have them even seeing the machine. How do you think I got all Meet them twice ... luxury, that makes it *too* easy :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:44:18 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 15 Message-ID: <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1163.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992641481 44039 194.134.203.144 (15 Jun 2001 21:44:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:44:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83844 alt.sys.pdp10:5519 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:16:12 -0600 Ben Franchuk wrote: BF> I was talking about a minimal general purpose machine. In general BF> for a 8 bit CPU ( Ignoring ROM BASIC ) you needed 32kb of RAM for BF> user programs and 8kb for the OS. What few CP/M programs I have seen Time to mention the chess program for the Sinclair ZX80 with only one kilobyte of memory! It played better than many much larger programs. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:58:48 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20010615195848.0ae2e4b5.steveo@eircom.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3B273845.EFE1822D@neulandmm.de> <87y9qugbud.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1163.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992641488 44039 194.134.203.144 (15 Jun 2001 21:44:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:44:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83849 alt.sys.pdp10:5523 On 14 Jun 2001 19:23:06 +0100 Adam Sampson wrote: AS> > > That be a 6502, no? AS> > No, the Z80 in the Game Boy is a Z80, not a 6502. :-) AS> Debatable. It's not really a Z80; it's got a slightly different AS> instruction set (for instance, it's got a version of LD A,(HL) which Definitely nothing like a 6502 then :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:43:26 +0100 Organization: All yuor pie are belong to us!! Message-ID: References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> <9gbe66$1u9o@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615193837.7961cd58.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992646711 nnrp-07:19054 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83755 alt.sys.pdp10:5494 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > You miss the point, it took ten minutes to get them to *touch* the > thing and realise it didn't hurt or break. Learning to do anything took the > rest of the morning - but then I am recalling introducing UNIPLEX to them :). I actually quite liked Uniplex (well, except for the insanely complicated configuration which was invariably the case for people who got too carried away with customising it, which was, er, invariably the case) Pretty impressive office suite for a dumb terminal. A lot better than PROFS or All-In-Bits, anyway. Chris. -- //USENET01 JOB (CBH,ISA),'TALKING BOLLOCKS',REGION=4000K,CLASS=F, // MSGCLASS=A,PASSWORD=WIBBLE,USER=CBH,COND=(04,LT) ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 16 Jun 2001 01:39:22 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3b2afe78$0$284$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83798 alt.sys.pdp10:5510 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >>I was talking about a minimal general purpose machine. In general >>for a 8 bit CPU ( Ignoring ROM BASIC ) you needed 32kb of RAM for >>user programs and 8kb for the OS. What few CP/M programs I have seen > Time to mention the chess program for the Sinclair ZX80 with only >one kilobyte of memory! It played better than many much larger programs. In that case, I bring up Microchess for the KIM-1, another 1K chess program, this time on the 6502. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### From: nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 16 Jun 2001 06:51:39 GMT Organization: Around here? Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-240-10.btinternet.com User-Agent: Xnews/4.04.17tea Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83871 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote in <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net>: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:16:12 -0600 > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > BF> I was talking about a minimal general purpose machine. In general > BF> for a 8 bit CPU ( Ignoring ROM BASIC ) you needed 32kb of RAM for > BF> user programs and 8kb for the OS. What few CP/M programs I have seen > > Time to mention the chess program for the Sinclair ZX80 with only > one kilobyte of memory! It played better than many much larger programs. > Heh. I taught myself 8086 machine code by translating Sargon from a published Z80 (but not CP/M based) listing. The Z80 source was an odd dialect IIRC, just to make things complicated, and I didn't really have a clue how either the PC or the program worked when I started. It worked in the end though... -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:10:58 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 18 Message-ID: <20010616101058.17fc6727.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20010613200104.2b49a6e5.steveo@eircom.net> <20010614205704.60000c74.steveo@eircom.net> <9gbe66$1u9o@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <20010615193837.7961cd58.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p616.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992685544 21190 194.134.201.144 (16 Jun 2001 09:59:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:59:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83827 alt.sys.pdp10:5512 On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:43:26 +0100 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> I actually quite liked Uniplex (well, except for the insanely complicated CH> configuration which was invariably the case for people who got too carried CH> away with customising it, which was, er, invariably the case) Pretty CH> impressive office suite for a dumb terminal. A lot better than PROFS CH> or All-In-Bits, anyway. Well yes, we did use it because it was the best we could find :) It still had a learning curve like a brick wall from the perspective of the average typist though. Back then I would have murdered for a UNIX port of Wordstar (the CP/M version of course), now I might murder anyone who tried to inflict one on me :) -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:20:49 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20010616102049.4e2160ac.steveo@eircom.net> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <3b2afe78$0$284$45beb828@newscene.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p616.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992685546 21190 194.134.201.144 (16 Jun 2001 09:59:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:59:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83834 alt.sys.pdp10:5514 On 16 Jun 2001 01:39:22 -0500 Cameron Kaiser wrote: CK> In that case, I bring up Microchess for the KIM-1, another 1K chess program, CK> this time on the 6502. Thanks, I missed that one. I wonder if the two ever played. Anyone know of a *smaller* chess program than 1K ? -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### From: Cameron Kaiser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 16 Jun 2001 14:32:11 -0500 Organization: Eight Bit Subversives Planning To Replace All PCs with C64s, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3b2bb3ac$0$838$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <3b2afe78$0$284$45beb828@newscene.com> <20010616102049.4e2160ac.steveo@eircom.net> X-Spam-Warning: I report spammers. And I vote. Wait, that sounds like a bumper sticker. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!novia!news.ptloma.edu!stockholm!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83799 alt.sys.pdp10:5511 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >>In that case, I bring up Microchess for the KIM-1, another 1K chess program, >>this time on the 6502. >Thanks, I missed that one. I wonder if the two ever played. Actually, the glove has already been thrown down, so sometime this summer the KIM-1 and the TS/1000 will duke it out. I'll post the blow-by-blow. -- Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128 personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! ** ** http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ ** ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:00:04 GMT Message-ID: <992721604.5797.0.nnrp-14.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <992267114.20717.0.nnrp-01.d4f05f81@news.demon.co.uk> <9g4vtv$iet$1@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net> <9g69t8$120@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992721604 nnrp-14:5797 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.0-test7 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83877 Tony Duell wrote: >Paul Grayson (mu0yc3@hotmail.com) wrote: >: They keyboard used different hardware, having some programmable >: keys. It was not possible to run a standard version of MS-DOS on the >: machine and get KEYB to work, and if you wanted a UK keyboard >: mapping you had to run either DOS+ or MS-DOS 3.2, both of which were >: supplied with the machine. They keyboard connector was also a >: non-standard pseudo-DIN plug. The mouse appeared to run from the >: same controller, and the two mouse buttons were mapped to keys. >Certainly on the PC2086 (a later Amstrad XT-almost-clone), the mouse >buttons _were_ keys. The PC2386 (386/20/4Mb/65Mb) PC I started on at home, very cheap for it's time used a similar quadrature mouse. Most confusing if you diddn't know this, and were trying to diagnose a case of mouse moving, but buttons not working. (Plug not properly plugged in) -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- Among a mans many good possessions, A good command of speech has no equal. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 21:01:20 +0100 Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: References: <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <5yAR6.18564$zl5.4850250@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <3B136FA0.4F4AAEB2@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010601182314.5a676236.steveo@eircom.net> <6uofs7kha1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B13DFF2.223B2003@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uitieit7o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B143890.E5715E10@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B27D373.4F274BFD@my-deja.com> <3B280D31.896E736F@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B28405F.3F8D4562@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: mc4as18-82-153-185.cw-visp.com X-Trace: 16 Jun 2001 20:05:33 GMT, mc4as18-82-153-185.cw-visp.com Lines: 18 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!mc4as18-82-153-185.cw-visp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83746 alt.sys.pdp10:5492 On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:41:03 -0600, Ben Franchuk in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >Eric Smith wrote: >> Before that, we had entire useful operating systems (better than MS-DOS) >> that fit in 8K*12 (equivalent to 12K bytes) with plenty of room left for >> applications. >Funny I thought the os would swap from the disk, using only 128 >bytes for the system device handler. I like 12 bit cpu's if notice >my web site. IIRC, you only had 92 words for SYS:, but the memory resident part of the O/S was just 256 words. Regards, David P. ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:29:46 GMT Message-ID: <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992730586 nnrp-13:25651 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.0-test7 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!goliat.eik.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83955 alt.sys.pdp10:5557 In alt.folklore.computers John West McKenna wrote: >Cameron Kaiser writes: >>No, you're thinking of the original NES. The Game Boy is Z80 (but the SNES >>is a 65816, a 16-bit 6502, which is nice). >"Nice" if you like processors that have mode bits which change not only the >meaning, but the length of ordinary instructions. >The D ("decimal" - makes the ALU work in BCD) flag on the 6502 can only be >forgiven because nobody ever used it. To stray somewhat further off-topic, does anyone know of the hardware specs of the gameboy advance? Screen resolution, programmability, ... -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "An enemy will usually have three courses open to him. Of these he will select the fourth." -- Helmuth von Moltke ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:12:31 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 12 Message-ID: <20010617081231.72a4ef3c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <3b2afe78$0$284$45beb828@newscene.com> <20010616102049.4e2160ac.steveo@eircom.net> <3b2bb3ac$0$838$45beb828@newscene.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1151.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 992764594 266 194.134.203.132 (17 Jun 2001 07:56:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:56:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83939 alt.sys.pdp10:5550 On 16 Jun 2001 14:32:11 -0500 Cameron Kaiser wrote: CK> Actually, the glove has already been thrown down, so sometime this summer the CK> KIM-1 and the TS/1000 will duke it out. I'll post the blow-by-blow. Cool! -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara ###### Sender: phr2001-nospam@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Paul Rubin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: 17 Jun 2001 01:03:51 -0700 Message-ID: <7xelsjmt20.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Organization: Nightsong/Fort GNOX Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 17 Jun 2001 01:23:44 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83943 alt.sys.pdp10:5553 Ben Franchuk writes: > I don't think unix would have been developed had the PDP-11 been not a > very efficient architecture. Even then one went to a data/code segments for > larger programs. Wasn't unix originally developed on the pdp-7? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 01 09:32:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9gkqu7$br1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <7xelsjmt20.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3B2B1746.D7C4F34D@jetnet.ab.ca> <9gir0e$60h$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa7DQOkJCpDMoTplYrgDFvL3xgnUsDKt0UDoa2xa2HZ3lehovQ6C6TG X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2001 12:07:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-130 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83997 In article <9gir0e$60h$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: >Ben Franchuk (bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca) writes: >> Paul Rubin wrote: >>> >>> Ben Franchuk writes: >>> > I don't think unix would have been developed had the PDP-11 been not a >>> > very efficient architecture. Even then one went to a data/code segments for >>> > larger programs. >>> >>> Wasn't unix originally developed on the pdp-7? >> It was, but they later moved to a PDP-11 ( Almost wrote PDP-10 there :-) >> The PDP-7 had too small a memory for high level language development >> as they wanted to write unix in high level language to be portable. > > But there wasn't a _high_ level language, nor much in the way of > portability associated with unix, right? Huh? Do you know what the hell you're talking about? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3B2B1746.D7C4F34D@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <7xelsjmt20.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 02:22:30 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.51 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 992797895 207.153.6.51 (Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:11:35 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:11:35 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:83970 alt.sys.pdp10:5563 Paul Rubin wrote: > > Ben Franchuk writes: > > I don't think unix would have been developed had the PDP-11 been not a > > very efficient architecture. Even then one went to a data/code segments for > > larger programs. > > Wasn't unix originally developed on the pdp-7? It was, but they later moved to a PDP-11 ( Almost wrote PDP-10 there :-) The PDP-7 had too small a memory for high level language development as they wanted to write unix in high level language to be portable. http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/chist.html http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. ###### Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:20:49 -0400 From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Reply-To: scottm25@bigfoot.com References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3B273845.EFE1822D@neulandmm.de> <87y9qugbud.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org> <20010615195848.0ae2e4b5.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3b2ce7f0$0$88183$f5f63664@news.tdin.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3be75a24.news.tdin.com X-Trace: DXC=R>HIhblUHaQiAcBM^EMG<[LoK8f=:?J8PdP1@E>K8R>_\:fWBahJ9BQ40aA2V5n=1Y\74iQjn:lJSF]oQm9]^\AR X-Complaints-To: abuse@tdin.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!169.207.30.12.MISMATCH!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.tdin.com!reader0-klmzmi.news.tdin.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84014 alt.sys.pdp10:5582 In article <20010615195848.0ae2e4b5.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On 14 Jun 2001 19:23:06 +0100 > Adam Sampson wrote: > > AS> > > That be a 6502, no? > AS> > No, the Z80 in the Game Boy is a Z80, not a 6502. :-) > AS> Debatable. It's not really a Z80; it's got a slightly different > AS> instruction set (for instance, it's got a version of LD A,(HL) which > > Definitely nothing like a 6502 then :) > Except maybe a 68000. :-) ###### Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:25:48 -0400 From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Reply-To: scottm25@bigfoot.com References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1 Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3b2ce91b$0$88179$f5f63664@news.tdin.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3be75a24.news.tdin.com X-Trace: DXC=ZODbbGCf@f4KcT1HbNQe82LoK8f=:?J80dP1@E>K8R>?\:fWBahJ9B1RH;jhG9jYA0\74iQjn:lJ3F]oQm9]^\A2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tdin.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!169.207.30.12.MISMATCH!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.tdin.com!reader0-klmzmi.news.tdin.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84015 alt.sys.pdp10:5583 In article <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling wrote: > To stray somewhat further off-topic, does anyone know of the hardware > specs of the gameboy advance? > Screen resolution, programmability, ... > It's basically a SNES in a smaller package so some variety of 65816 I would guess. Although I'd like to know the ins and outs of the little sucker myself. ###### From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 18 Jun 2001 01:40:16 +0800 Organization: University Computer Club Lines: 19 Message-ID: <9giq20$kgm$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3b2ce91b$0$88179$f5f63664@news.tdin.com> X-Trace: enyo.uwa.edu.au 992799618 25957 130.95.13.17 (17 Jun 2001 17:40:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uwa.edu.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84036 alt.sys.pdp10:5588 Scott writes: >> To stray somewhat further off-topic, does anyone know of the hardware >> specs of the gameboy advance? >> Screen resolution, programmability, ... >> >It's basically a SNES in a smaller package so some variety of 65816 I >would guess. Although I'd like to know the ins and outs of the little >sucker myself. Where on earth did you get that idea? The CPU is an ARM. Most games use the Thumb instruction set, because program memory bandwidth is fairly limited. The display is 240x160, with 15 bit colour. 128K RAM on the CPU, 256K external. Go to Google. Search. There's lots of information out there. John ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 17 Jun 2001 17:56:30 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9gir0e$60h$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <7xelsjmt20.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3B2B1746.D7C4F34D@jetnet.ab.ca> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 992800590 6161 134.117.136.30 (17 Jun 2001 17:56:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2001 17:56:30 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84010 Ben Franchuk (bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca) writes: > Paul Rubin wrote: >> >> Ben Franchuk writes: >> > I don't think unix would have been developed had the PDP-11 been not a >> > very efficient architecture. Even then one went to a data/code segments for >> > larger programs. >> >> Wasn't unix originally developed on the pdp-7? > It was, but they later moved to a PDP-11 ( Almost wrote PDP-10 there :-) > The PDP-7 had too small a memory for high level language development > as they wanted to write unix in high level language to be portable. But there wasn't a _high_ level language, nor much in the way of portability associated with unix, right? ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:15:41 GMT Message-ID: <992816141.14531.0.nnrp-14.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3b2ce91b$0$88179$f5f63664@news.tdin.com> <9giq20$kgm$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 992816141 nnrp-14:14531 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.0-test7 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84050 alt.sys.pdp10:5593 In alt.folklore.computers John "West" McKenna wrote: >Scott writes: >>> To stray somewhat further off-topic, does anyone know of the hardware >>> specs of the gameboy advance? >>> Screen resolution, programmability, ... >>> >>It's basically a SNES in a smaller package so some variety of 65816 I >>would guess. Although I'd like to know the ins and outs of the little >>sucker myself. >Where on earth did you get that idea? >The CPU is an ARM. Most games use the Thumb instruction set, because >program memory bandwidth is fairly limited. The display is 240x160, with >15 bit colour. 128K RAM on the CPU, 256K external. >Go to Google. Search. There's lots of information out there. For some reason I was finding only limited info. http://www.devrs.com/gba/files/gbadevfaqs.php Seems to answer most possible questions. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "The device every conquerer, yes, every altruistic liberator should be required to wear on his shield... is a little girl and her kitten, at ground zero" - Sir Dominic Flandry in Poul Andersons 'A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows' ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com> From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:38:59 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.240.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 992888218 62.255.240.131 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:16:58 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:16:58 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84116 In article <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) writes: [...] > Heh. I taught myself 8086 machine code by translating Sargon from a > published Z80 (but not CP/M based) listing. The Z80 source was an odd > dialect IIRC, just to make things complicated, and I didn't really have a > clue how either the PC or the program worked when I started. It worked in > the end though... Hmm. Does anyone know where I can find the 1kB chess algorithm implemented in C? I've been wanting to do a port to, um, a very small system and need to reimplement it in a proprietry language; the version I've currently got is a 64kB chess program and is possibly a bit big.` -- +- David Given --------McQ-+ "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between | Work: dg@tao-group.com | the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style." | Play: dg@cowlark.com | --- Trad. Jhereg saying +- http://www.cowlark.com -+ ###### Message-ID: <3B2E875C.A920529@ev1.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:57:31 -0700 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: c1656384-a.plano1.tx.home.com X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 992897875 c1656384-a.plano1.tx.home.com (18 Jun 2001 15:57:55 -0500) Lines: 23 X-Authenticated-User: richmond Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84115 David Given wrote: > > In article <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, > nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) writes: > [...] > > Heh. I taught myself 8086 machine code by translating Sargon from a > > published Z80 (but not CP/M based) listing. The Z80 source was an odd > > dialect IIRC, just to make things complicated, and I didn't really have a > > clue how either the PC or the program worked when I started. It worked in > > the end though... > > Hmm. Does anyone know where I can find the 1kB chess algorithm implemented > in C? I've been wanting to do a port to, um, a very small system and need > to reimplement it in a proprietry language; the version I've currently got > is a 64kB chess program and is possibly a bit big.` > You could probably find the KIM-1 Chess program, and then dis-assemble it... Then your only hurdle is understanding 6502 assembly language... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Erik Mooney Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:03:22 -0400 Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com Lines: 10 Sender: erik@SPAMFILTER-dos486.com Message-ID: References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <3b2afe78$0$284$45beb828@newscene.com> <20010616102049.4e2160ac.steveo@eircom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.lightlink.com!news.alt.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84125 alt.sys.pdp10:5605 >CK> In that case, I bring up Microchess for the KIM-1, another 1K chess program, >CK> this time on the 6502. > > Thanks, I missed that one. I wonder if the two ever played. > > Anyone know of a *smaller* chess program than 1K ? There was one in one of the Obfuscated C contests that fit in 1536 bytes of source. Dunno how much it compiled to. ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3b2ce91b$0$88179$f5f63664@news.tdin.com> <9giq20$kgm$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:36:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.99.193.21 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 992918169 216.99.193.21 (Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:36:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:36:09 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!feed.textport.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84199 alt.sys.pdp10:5631 In alt.sys.pdp10 John "West" McKenna wrote: > Scott writes: >>It's basically a SNES in a smaller package so some variety of 65816 I >>would guess. Although I'd like to know the ins and outs of the little >>sucker myself. > Where on earth did you get that idea? He probably got it from the fact two of the big launch titles are basically ports of old SNES games, and that there has been a fairly big deal made of that. OTOH, Mario 2 on the GBA is a *lot* more obnoxious than on the SNES with all the unnecessary noise. There is a website with all kinds of programming and hardware info: http://www.agbdev.net/gbadev/ they've even got info on flash cards that can be used for development purposes. Zane ###### From: nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 19 Jun 2001 06:32:20 GMT Organization: Around here? Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9gmrlk$olh$3@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <992562960snz@dsl.co.uk> <3B29A82C.30F5BA3D@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010615194418.44a8a90f.steveo@eircom.net> <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <3B2E875C.A920529@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-219-114.btinternet.com User-Agent: Xnews/4.04.17tea Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84221 Charles Richmond wrote in <3B2E875C.A920529@ev1.net>: > David Given wrote: >> >> In article <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, >> nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) writes: >> [...] >>> Heh. I taught myself 8086 machine code by translating Sargon from a >>> published Z80 (but not CP/M based) listing. The Z80 source was an odd >>> dialect IIRC, just to make things complicated, and I didn't really >>> have a clue how either the PC or the program worked when I started. >>> It worked in the end though... >> >> Hmm. Does anyone know where I can find the 1kB chess algorithm >> implemented in C? I've been wanting to do a port to, um, a very small >> system and need to reimplement it in a proprietry language; the >> version I've currently got is a 64kB chess program and is possibly a >> bit big.` >> > You could probably find the KIM-1 Chess program, and then dis-assemble > it... Then your only hurdle is understanding 6502 assembly language... > I've been hunting for that program, and find lots of references, but I couldn't find the code itself. Any offers? -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 19 Jun 2001 14:58:49 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 44 Message-ID: <9gnpb9$gne$1@news.panix.com> References: <3B2E875C.A920529@ev1.net> <9gmrlk$olh$3@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 992962729 17134 166.84.0.228 (19 Jun 2001 14:58:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2001 14:58:49 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84147 In article <9gmrlk$olh$3@plutonium.btinternet.com>, Neil Barnes wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote in <3B2E875C.A920529@ev1.net>: > >> David Given wrote: >>> >>> In article <9gevlr$jre$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, >>> nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) writes: >>> [...] >>>> Heh. I taught myself 8086 machine code by translating Sargon from a >>>> published Z80 (but not CP/M based) listing. The Z80 source was an odd >>>> dialect IIRC, just to make things complicated, and I didn't really >>>> have a clue how either the PC or the program worked when I started. >>>> It worked in the end though... >>> >>> Hmm. Does anyone know where I can find the 1kB chess algorithm >>> implemented in C? I've been wanting to do a port to, um, a very small >>> system and need to reimplement it in a proprietry language; the >>> version I've currently got is a 64kB chess program and is possibly a >>> bit big.` >>> >> You could probably find the KIM-1 Chess program, and then dis-assemble >> it... Then your only hurdle is understanding 6502 assembly language... > >I've been hunting for that program, and find lots of references, but I >couldn't find the code itself. Any offers? The c program or the KIM? No matter, I have neither. Nor do I have the PDP-8 version that ran in 4K (12 bit words, so 6K bytes.) It also ran under TSS-8 so the data and program banks were the same. I don't recall if it would use separate data and program banks when run stand-alone. I think you could set from 1 to 6 move look-ahead and some additional parameters to affect how much it would calculate about its next move. It would work on its moves while you thought about yours. I also remember a PDP-10 version but have no details. Neither was very good and I never played them against each other. Wasn't/isn't there some PC game called Chess Maniac that would cheat if you let it? -- Preudhomme's Law of Window Cleaning: It's on the other side. ###### From: Kirk Is Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <20010606090839.61aa25b8.steveo@eircom.net> <9fm758$tl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <6uk82mlk96.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B272B19.36B134DB@d2dc.net> <3b276f9b$0$832$45beb828@newscene.com> <9g7upk$pnl$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> <992730586.25651.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3b2ce91b$0$88179$f5f63664@news.tdin.com> <9giq20$kgm$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:16:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 993492969 130.64.23.37 (Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:16:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:16:09 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:84524 alt.sys.pdp10:5704 In rec.games.video.classic Zane H. Healy wrote: > He probably got it from the fact two of the big launch titles are basically > ports of old SNES games, and that there has been a fairly big deal made of > that. > OTOH, Mario 2 on the GBA is a *lot* more obnoxious than on the SNES with all > the unnecessary noise. The Mario game on the GBA is a remake of an NES game, not an SNES game. (Unless of course people are talking about the Mario All-Stars port of it.) F-Zero X is the big technical achievement SNES-like game, I guess, along with a version of Mario Kart. "noise"? Like, the giant oversized characters? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,comp.lang.logo,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: 23 Jul 2001 20:23:33 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9ji145$9gk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9f6fak$1aji$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 995919813 9748 10.0.0.43 (23 Jul 2001 20:23:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2001 20:23:33 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85686 alt.sys.pdp10:6084 In article <9f6fak$1aji$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz>, Don Stokes wrote: >Burroughs & Sperry merged to form Unisys in the mid 80s, becoming the >second largest ahead of DEC, but I thought that position was only >temporary; both Sperry and Burroughs were well past their use-by dates >at the time of the merger, and went from being two declining companies >to one company that was bigger but declining just as quickly, while the >mid 80s were when DEC looked unassailable. So DEC was soon able reclaim >the hill before getting kicked from below by the micro folks. The 7 >dwarfs never really threatened DEC. And yet Unisys is still in business, and are still shipping 36-bit and 48-bit systems: 36-bit at http://www.unisys.com/hw/servers/clearpath/os2200/ 48-bit at http://www.unisys.com/hw/servers/clearpath/mcp/ -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:04:05 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3B5D8054.142F1479@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9f56a6$ee9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9f6fak$1aji$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <9ji145$9gk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@171.69.75.66 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:85817 alt.sys.pdp10:6117 Don Stokes wrote: > >Burroughs & Sperry merged to form Unisys in the mid 80s, becoming the > >second largest ahead of DEC, but I thought that position was only > >temporary; both Sperry and Burroughs were well past their use-by dates > >at the time of the merger, and went from being two declining companies > >to one company that was bigger but declining just as quickly, while the > >mid 80s were when DEC looked unassailable. So DEC was soon able reclaim > >the hill before getting kicked from below by the micro folks. The 7 > >dwarfs never really threatened DEC. Yet another case of the faith that two rocks tied together will sink more slowly than if they remain separate. JKA -- The internet is "the largest legal creation of wealth in the history of the planet." Noted VC 2000 "I'm here today with something of an apology," the Internet is "the largest legal creation (and evaporation) of wealth in the history of the planet." But, "I stand by my statement that the Internet was -- and is -- under-hyped". Noted VC 2001