From: Kirk Is Subject: 5-player Spacewar? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 33 Message-ID: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:02:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 990975739 130.64.23.37 (Sun, 27 May 2001 11:02:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:02:19 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:81918 classicgaming.com selected Spacewar! as their game of the week, so it revived my interest in it. (You can see my blog entry at http://kisrael.com/viewblog.cgi?date=2001.05.26 ) Anyway, one of the most interesting new things my tiny bit of research discovered was this article that the wheels.org site posted, from Rolling Stone: http://www.wheels.org/spacewar/stone/rolling_stone.html It mentions a 5 player variation on Spacewar, presumably with 5 distinct ships-- I assume its those five shipforms that map to the names "Pointy Fins","Roundback","Birdie","Funny Fins",and "Flatback" Anyway, it was interesting to see that Space War was not only one of the first 'deathmatches', but also one of the first 'multiplayer deathmatches'. Especially with sophisticated rules that kills are worth +1, getting killed gives you -1, and you get an extra bonus if you're the last player standing (everyone else dies before the first person killed re-emerges.) Has anyone tried to chart a chronology of the variations of Space War? I assume not, since it would probably show up on a Google search. I assume that 5 player spacewar no long played on the venerable PDP-1, since the original version was meant to max out its realtime capabilities. Also, what languages is that at the end of the rolling stone article? It seems pretty highlevel for something as relatively sophisticated as Spacewar!-- almost Lisp or Logo-y. Was it meant to be pseudocode more or less? -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.kisrael.com DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### From: Rob Mitchell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:21:12 -0400 Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3B111B68.3F6F85C5@my-deja.com> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: host-216-78-40-168.ath.bellsouth.net (216.78.40.168) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 990976943 835377 216.78.40.168 (16 [80860]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!host-216-78-40-168.ath.bellsouth.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:81830 Wow! That Rolling Stone article is amazing! The original LRTF Game! Someone needs to get this 5 player SpaceWar up on emulation! ... or Upgrade the version for the Vectrex! BTW: How many home versions are out there? Atari 2600, Vectrex, others? The Fairchild Ch F dog version doesn't count. Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA ###### From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Date: 28 May 2001 04:42:14 +0800 Organization: University Computer Club Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> X-Trace: enyo.uwa.edu.au 990996136 21978 130.95.13.17 (27 May 2001 20:42:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uwa.edu.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82043 Kirk Is writes: >Also, what languages is that at the end of the rolling stone article? It >seems pretty highlevel for something as relatively sophisticated as >Spacewar!-- almost Lisp or Logo-y. Was it meant to be pseudocode more or >less? It looks like Logo to me. The original Spacewar was most definitely *not* written in Logo. This must have been written a couple of decades later. Spacewar is a fairly simple game - it doesn't take much code to do it (although there are obviously a few bits missing from this one) Did Logo come in a variety of dialects like the microcomputer BASIC interpreters? Would a program written for one Logo run on another? I never learnt enough of it to tell if mine was the same as this language. John ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic From: Michael Black Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? In-Reply-To: <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Forwarded: by - (DeleGate/7.3.0) Lines: 54 Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:52:30 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.100.62 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 991000298 198.168.100.62 (Sun, 27 May 2001 17:51:38 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:51:38 EDT Organization: UUNET Canada News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!gloria.cam.org!blackm00 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82256 On 28 May 2001, John West McKenna wrote: > Kirk Is writes: > > >Also, what languages is that at the end of the rolling stone article? It > >seems pretty highlevel for something as relatively sophisticated as > >Spacewar!-- almost Lisp or Logo-y. Was it meant to be pseudocode more or > >less? > > It looks like Logo to me. The original Spacewar was most definitely *not* > written in Logo. This must have been written a couple of decades later. > Spacewar is a fairly simple game - it doesn't take much code to do it > (although there are obviously a few bits missing from this one) > > Did Logo come in a variety of dialects like the microcomputer BASIC > interpreters? Would a program written for one Logo run on another? > I never learnt enough of it to tell if mine was the same as this language. > > John > > The article in Rolling Stone came out about 1972, and was written by Stewart Brand, who had some connection to Douglas Englebart in the sixties, and started the Whole Earth Catalog. It gets kind of mushy, but either the foundation that seeded the Whole Earth Catalog also seeded the People's Computer Company, or else the foundation that arose from the success of the WEC seeded the PCC. One of the odd things about Logo is that it wasn't intended to be a programming language. It was intended as an environment for exploring and learning. "What happens if I do this?" is a lot safer on a computer than with a chemistry set. I thought Seymour Papert's creation of the language was based in part on knowning hackers in the original sense of the word. But in practice, the concept got warped. It was seen as a sinple programming language, and one that should be taught to the young. So instead of handing the kids the computer and showing them the starting point, and then they play and explore, the teacher sits at the front of the room and tells them the language and undoubtedly assignments are given and tests taken. So apart from different implementations to handle better hardware on some computers (the turtle, ie the cursor, in some cases becomes a real mechanical turtle), it's my understanding that the language was modified to either make it a more practical language for writing programs in, or simplified to make it even easier to teach. Michael ###### From: "Ben Combee" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:02:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.71.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.austin.rr.com 990997329 24.28.71.117 (Sun, 27 May 2001 16:02:09 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:02:09 CDT Organization: Road Runner - Texas Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!feed.cgocable.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.com!news.kc.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!cyclone2.austin.rr.com!typhoon.austin.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82257 > Did Logo come in a variety of dialects like the microcomputer BASIC > interpreters? Would a program written for one Logo run on another? > I never learnt enough of it to tell if mine was the same as this language. Yes, Logo was much like BASIC in this way -- there were Logo dialects for most of the home computers, include TRS-80, Atari, Commodore 64, and Apple. I liked Atari's Logo the best, since they used the players for the graphical turtle, adjusting the bitmap to show the turtle's heading. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:36:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.227.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 990999371 199.174.227.14 (Sun, 27 May 2001 14:36:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 14:36:11 PDT X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 14:34:16 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82205 Kirk Is writes: > classicgaming.com selected Spacewar! as their game of the week, so it > revived my interest in it. (You can see my blog entry at > http://kisrael.com/viewblog.cgi?date=2001.05.26 ) > > Anyway, one of the most interesting new things my tiny bit of research > discovered was this article that the wheels.org site posted, from Rolling > Stone: http://www.wheels.org/spacewar/stone/rolling_stone.html > > It mentions a 5 player variation on Spacewar, presumably with 5 distinct > ships-- I assume its those five shipforms that map to the names "Pointy > Fins","Roundback","Birdie","Funny Fins",and "Flatback" summer of 1980, the author of REXX wrote/released (for the internal network) a multi-player, distributed (network) space war game played on 327x terminals (players could be logged into the same machine or different machines around the network). One of the first "bug-fixes" to the game was energy penalty inversely proportional to the time interval between commands after somebody wrote an automated program to play the game. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Kirk Is Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:48:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 991014481 130.64.23.37 (Sun, 27 May 2001 21:48:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:48:01 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82196 In rec.games.video.classic Ben Combee wrote: > Yes, Logo was much like BASIC in this way -- there were Logo dialects > for most of the home computers, include TRS-80, Atari, Commodore 64, and > Apple. I liked Atari's Logo the best, since they used the players for > the graphical turtle, adjusting the bitmap to show the turtle's heading. Plus, it had at least 4 turtles at once. And they made it very easy to setup collision detectoin as a daemon. I made some fun little a-life-ish things with this setup. Atari had some interesting programming languages. Their default BASICs biggest fault was using array notation for string instead of the traditional MID$ and LEFT$, and generally weak support for arrays. But it was reasonably rich for graphics and sound-- at least compared to the Apple II and C64. (I think the Tandy CoCo was very good as well.) Looking back I wish I had gotten into some of the super BASICs for Atari 8-bits, I think "Action!" was one, that seemed to promise excellent results for relatively little effort. Perhaps it was compiled BASIC? Plus, there was always Dr. Wacko's guide to game programming on the atari. That was a brilliant book. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### From: Kirk Is Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:51:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 991014662 130.64.23.37 (Sun, 27 May 2001 21:51:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:51:02 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!deine.net!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82200 In rec.games.video.classic Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > Kirk Is writes: >> It mentions a 5 player variation on Spacewar, presumably with 5 distinct >> ships-- I assume its those five shipforms that map to the names "Pointy >> Fins","Roundback","Birdie","Funny Fins",and "Flatback" > summer of 1980, the author of REXX wrote/released (for the internal > network) a multi-player, distributed (network) space war game played > on 327x terminals (players could be logged into the same machine or > different machines around the network). Ahh, neat. X-tank and the like followed I'm sure. Way too late for what the Rolling Stone article is talking about, but still neat to hear. I fear a really chronology of Spacewar! may not be possible now. > One of the first "bug-fixes" to the game was energy penalty inversely > proportional to the time interval between commands after somebody > wrote an automated program to play the game. time interval between commands? You mean the "autopilot" would tend to 'micromanage'? Or react too quickly somehow? Anyway, I don't get what this patch prevented, or why a clever countr-patch couldn't be issued to re-enable some level of cheating without that penalty. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 66 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:55:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 991022128 24.91.12.32 (Sun, 27 May 2001 23:55:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:55:28 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82262 john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) writes: >Kirk Is writes: >>Also, what languages is that at the end of the rolling stone article? It >>seems pretty highlevel for something as relatively sophisticated as >>Spacewar!-- almost Lisp or Logo-y. Was it meant to be pseudocode more or >>less? >It looks like Logo to me. It's definitely Logo. >Did Logo come in a variety of dialects like the microcomputer BASIC >interpreters? No, not "did". "Does". Ucblogo is free, mswlogo runs on windows and is derived and extended from ucblogo. My first consulting income was to add turtle support to PDP-10 Logo. (Real turtle as graphics were too expensive circa 1973.) Would a program written for one Logo run on another? They can. The code here would not run on ucblogo. The commas as in: to ship :size penup, left 180, forward 2 *:size, right 90 forward 1 *:size, right 90 will be treated as part of the symbol. In ucblogo they aren't used. The variable definition syntax looks weird too. Here's a simple Sierpinksi gasket drawing program I wrote last Christmas to go along with a Logo book to my nephew: ; Sierpinski gasket - algorithm 1 - Upward triangles ; This recurses down to the tiniest triangle it can draw and builds the ; whole gasket out of tiny triangles. to sierp1 :side :depth ifelse and :side > 1 :depth > 1 [ make "side :side / 2 make "depth :depth - 1 sierp1 :side :depth fd :side sierp1 :side :depth rt 120 fd :side lt 120 sierp1 :side :depth lt 120 fd :side rt 120 ] [ repeat 3 [ fd :side rt 120 ] ] end ; Driver for above. Just move to the lower left corner and run. to s1 :side :depth pu lt 120 fd :side / 1.732 rt 150 pd hideturtle sierp1 :side :depth pu rt 30 fd :side / 1.732 lt 60 pd showturtle end fd, rt, pu, etc are all abbreviations for functions like those in the SpaceWar! program. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: starsabre@not.att.net (jt august) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:00:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.40.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 991022423 12.75.40.98 (Mon, 28 May 2001 04:00:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:00:23 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82246 In article , "Ben Combee" wrote: > > Did Logo come in a variety of dialects like the microcomputer BASIC > > interpreters? Would a program written for one Logo run on another? > > I never learnt enough of it to tell if mine was the same as this > language. > > Yes, Logo was much like BASIC in this way -- there were Logo dialects > for most of the home computers, include TRS-80, Atari, Commodore 64, and > Apple. I liked Atari's Logo the best, since they used the players for > the graphical turtle, adjusting the bitmap to show the turtle's heading. I would like to harp on the ommitted fact that the TI-99 had the first version of Logo commercially released. -- jt august starsabre at att dot net Now doing business 24/7 24 hours a month 7 months a year ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:15:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.229.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 991023353 199.174.229.175 (Sun, 27 May 2001 21:15:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:15:53 PDT X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:13:58 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82191 Kirk Is writes: > > time interval between commands? You mean the "autopilot" would tend to > 'micromanage'? Or react too quickly somehow? Anyway, I don't get what > this patch prevented, or why a clever countr-patch couldn't be issued to > re-enable some level of cheating without that penalty. automated program would issue commands significantly faster than a human could/would and therefor defeat everybody. individual players didn't have direct control of the game code ... they only interfaced to it thru commands (just the user interface). some enterprising person wrote a program that simulated the user interface ... but issued commands and re-acted significantly faster than a human would. basically, the patch didn't prevent "robot" players operating at super-human speed ... they were just penalized as to the amount of energy used per operation (somewhat attempt to place "robot" players on level playing ground with "human" players). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:32:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.229.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 991024365 199.174.229.175 (Sun, 27 May 2001 21:32:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:32:45 PDT X-Received-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:30:49 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82201 irk Is writes: > Ahh, neat. X-tank and the like followed I'm sure. > Way too late for what the Rolling Stone article is talking about, > but still neat to hear. I fear a really chronology of Spacewar! may not be > possible now. slightly earlier ... the PDP1(?) version was ported to 1130/2250-4 (2 player) sometime '68/'69 at cambridge science center (545 tech. sq). After I joined CSC early in 1970, I remember bringing my kids in on weekends and letting them play it random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#2 IBM 1130 (was Re: IBM 7090--used for business or science?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#67 oddly portable machines http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#24 A question for you old guys -- IBM 1130 information http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#71 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Kirk Is Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 47 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:04:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 991065843 130.64.23.37 (Mon, 28 May 2001 12:04:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:04:03 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82197 In rec.games.video.classic Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > Kirk Is writes: >> >>>One of the first "bug-fixes" to the game was energy penalty inversely >>>proportional to the time interval between commands after somebody >>>wrote an automated program to play the game. >> time interval between commands? You mean the "autopilot" would tend to >> 'micromanage'? Or react too quickly somehow? Anyway, I don't get what >> this patch prevented, or why a clever countr-patch couldn't be issued to >> re-enable some level of cheating without that penalty. > automated program would issue commands significantly faster than a > human could/would and therefor defeat everybody. > individual players didn't have direct control of the game code > ... they only interfaced to it thru commands (just the user > interface). right, just like any modern video game. > some enterprising person wrote a program that simulated > the user interface ... but issued commands and re-acted significantly > faster than a human would. > basically, the patch didn't prevent "robot" players operating at > super-human speed ... they were just penalized as to the amount of > energy used per operation (somewhat attempt to place "robot" players > on level playing ground with "human" players). Still, it sounded like you were saying that a robot was flushed out by having a short 'time interval between commands'-- i.e. the smaller the time interval, the bigger the energy penalty. Does that mean time interval between subsequent commands issued by the player (i.e. the 'bot' tended to micromanage the direction and thrust of the ship) or the time interval between some stimulus and the player's response? In both cases it seems like, once you have the basic "how do I make a good spacewar playing program" problem solved, you could tweak it's algorigthm to not be penalized by the anti-bot code. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:46:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.227.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 991068370 199.174.227.2 (Mon, 28 May 2001 09:46:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:46:10 PDT X-Received-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:44:21 PDT (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82204 Kirk Is writes: > Still, it sounded like you were saying that a robot was flushed out > by having a short 'time interval between commands'-- i.e. the smaller the > time interval, the bigger the energy penalty. > > Does that mean time interval between subsequent commands issued by the > player (i.e. the 'bot' tended to micromanage the direction and thrust of > the ship) or the time interval between some stimulus and the player's > response? > > In both cases it seems like, once you have the basic "how do I make a good > spacewar playing program" problem solved, you could tweak it's algorigthm > to not be penalized by the anti-bot code. since the game didn't really know whether it was a human or 'bot (in the game) ... energy required to execute a command (movement, attack, firing, etc) was set value unless the interval between two successive commands was less than a threshold (lower than most real humans could reasonably be expected to accomplish) ... then the energy consumed for the subsequent command started to increase inversely proportional to the interval between the commands. yes, 'bots were modified to take into account the threashold when playing the game (i'm not sure how sophisticated they got ... whether they just stayed right at the threshold ... or had some strategy to execute under the threshold under particular conditions). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Kirk Is Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6qwQ6.192$l2.12988@news.tufts.edu> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:03:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 991073026 130.64.23.37 (Mon, 28 May 2001 14:03:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:03:46 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82199 In rec.games.video.classic Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > Kirk Is writes: > since the game didn't really know whether it was a human or 'bot (in > the game) ... energy required to execute a command (movement, attack, > firing, etc) was set value unless the interval between two successive > commands was less than a threshold (lower than most real humans could > reasonably be expected to accomplish) ... then the energy consumed for > the subsequent command started to increase inversely proportional to > the interval between the commands. Ah, so the early 'bots were 'micromanaging'. > yes, 'bots were modified to take into account the threashold when > playing the game (i'm not sure how sophisticated they got ... whether > they just stayed right at the threshold ... or had some strategy to > execute under the threshold under particular conditions). Cool. Wonder if these are some of the first instances of a problem and 'arms race' that still hangs around today, with people using 'Aimbots' and the like in games such as Quake, and eventually having those add in random 'noise' so as to avoid detectable perfection. Also, Spacewar is at an interesting place... simple, but not too simple... where you could get could some interesting AI-only competitions... -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Date: 29 May 2001 07:10:21 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9evi0t$5af$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <9eror6$1ke$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaLiz7REzq6lSOivj64xOIH2pAYw1JjqwJn1/qH2+WZadjdLWxWFgcy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2001 07:10:21 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82188 Michael Black wrote: > It gets kind of mushy, but either the foundation that seeded the > Whole Earth Catalog also seeded the People's Computer Company, or > else the foundation that arose from the success of the WEC seeded > the PCC. According to the version of the story in _Fire in the Valley_ by Paul Freiberger and Michael Swaine (p. 100-101 of the first edition), Bob Albrecht is the link between the two: he started the nonprofit Portola Insitute, from which "sprang, under the organization of Stewart Brand, the Whole Earth Catalog," and then left Portola to found Dymax, which "gave rise to" the People's Computer Company. eric ###### From: "Maury Markowitz" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Lines: 8 Organization: none X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:25:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.12.235 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news3.rdc1.on.home.com 991254320 24.43.12.235 (Wed, 30 May 2001 13:25:20 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:25:20 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news3.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82376 "Kirk Is" wrote in message news:%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu... Tooting my own horn: www.gamesoffame.com Maury ###### Message-ID: <3B15643F.904F2643@xprt.net> From: crymad Organization: RMCA http://www.rmca.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:38:46 EDT Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:21:03 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82388 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > Tooting my own horn: www.gamesoffame.com Many, many thanks for this link. Back in the 70's when I was a child, I remember seeing a video game in the lobby of a theater while waiting for the movie ("Jaws"?) to start. This machine fascinated me, but I was too overwhelmed by its intimidating array of buttons to put a quarter in. I never saw another one again, and in fact I never even remembered its name, Space Wars. To finally meet up with it again in your video game history is a great joy. I have read many video game histories on the net with references to the the original Spacewar and Nutting's Computer Space, but yours is the first I've come across that mentions Space Wars. Is this game a bit of an obscurity? --crymad > > Maury ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:48:34 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3B15643F.904F2643@xprt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 991259313 7633 17.205.21.66 (30 May 2001 21:48:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2001 21:48:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82448 In article <3B15643F.904F2643@xprt.net>, crymad wrote: > I have read many video game histories on the net with references to the > the original Spacewar and Nutting's Computer Space, but yours is the > first I've come across that mentions Space Wars. Try doing a web search for "Vectorbeam Space War" or "Cinematronics Space Wars" ###### Message-ID: <3B1582CD.65B167CD@xprt.net> From: crymad Organization: RMCA http://www.rmca.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3B15643F.904F2643@xprt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:49:08 EDT Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:31:25 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82491 Al Kossow wrote: > > In article <3B15643F.904F2643@xprt.net>, crymad wrote: > > > I have read many video game histories on the net with references to the > > the original Spacewar and Nutting's Computer Space, but yours is the > > first I've come across that mentions Space Wars. > > Try doing a web search for "Vectorbeam Space War" or > "Cinematronics Space Wars" From http://www.emuunlim.com/doteaters/play2sta1.htm : "It is a big hit for Cinematronics, selling 30,000 units and staying in the top 10 money earning arcade games for three years." And yet I saw only one growing up. On the other hand, Star Castle, another Cinematronics creation, seemed to be everywhere. --crymad ###### From: "jlewczyk" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.games.video.classic References: <%F8Q6.182$l2.12700@news.tufts.edu> <3B111B68.3F6F85C5@my-deja.com> Subject: Re: 5-player Spacewar? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:59:42 -0400 Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: dsl254-117-222.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net Message-ID: <3b15a45d$1_4@vienna7.his.com> X-Trace: 30 May 2001 21:54:37 -0400, dsl254-117-222.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net Organization: Heller Information Services X-Authenticated-User: jlewczyk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news.lightlink.com!news1.his.com!vienna7.his.com!dsl254-117-222.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:82407 Check this out. Java applet emulation of the the original object code! http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/spacewar/ "Rob Mitchell" wrote in message news:3B111B68.3F6F85C5@my-deja.com... > Wow! That Rolling Stone article is amazing! The original LRTF Game! > Someone needs to get this 5 player SpaceWar up on emulation! ... or > Upgrade the version for the Vectrex! > > BTW: How many home versions are out there? Atari 2600, Vectrex, others? > > The Fairchild Ch F dog version doesn't count. > > Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA