Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: FPGAs (was Re: Are AMD2901 bit slice chips still available?) References: <6uofuo5of3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 27 Mar 2001 17:09:53 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 27 Mar 2001 17:14:50 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77587 Andrew Carol writes: > I briefly considered that. I'm sure it would fit. The issue is that > the FPGA has to be programmed using a language that I don't know, using > tools that I understand are quite expensive, using a programmer I don't > own. The languages aren't that difficult to learn. Tools for Xilinx and Altera FPGAs can now be had for FREE. I personally recommend the Xilinx WebPACK ISE software, which supports Verilog and VHDL, and can handle all of their Spartan II parts (XC2S15 throguh XC2S200) and the Virtex 300-E (XCV300E). http://www.xilinx.com/sxpresso/webpack.htm Despite the name, WebPACK ISE is software that you download and run under Windows on your own PC. It does NOT send your design to Xilinx, unlike their other WebFitter service. I sure wish they had WebPACK ISE for Linux, but it works well enough under VMware. The XC2S200 can hold an amazing amount of logic; it has 1176 CLBs each of which has four 4-input LUTs and four flip-flops. And if that's not enough, the XCV300E is about 50% bigger. And the really amazing thing is that the Spartan II parts are *cheap*! The XC2S200 only costs $40 in onesies! If you really want a board full of parts, the XC2S15 costs around $7 and could easily be used to make a replacment for any of the Am29xx bitslice parts. ###### From: Andrew Carol Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: FPGAs (was Re: Are AMD2901 bit slice chips still available?) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:26:59 -0800 Organization: Apple Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <6uofuo5of3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew1.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 985800366 10337 17.202.13.88 (28 Mar 2001 17:26:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 2001 17:26:06 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!aaecaroll Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77588 In article , Eric Smith wrote: > Andrew Carol writes: > > I briefly considered that. I'm sure it would fit. The issue is that > > the FPGA has to be programmed using a language that I don't know, using > > tools that I understand are quite expensive, using a programmer I don't > > own. > > The languages aren't that difficult to learn. Tools for Xilinx and > Altera FPGAs can now be had for FREE. I personally recommend the Xilinx > WebPACK ISE software, which supports Verilog and VHDL, and can handle > all of their Spartan II parts (XC2S15 throguh XC2S200) and the Virtex > 300-E (XCV300E). > > http://www.xilinx.com/sxpresso/webpack.htm > > Despite the name, WebPACK ISE is software that you download and run > under Windows on your own PC. It does NOT send your design to Xilinx, > unlike their other WebFitter service. > > I sure wish they had WebPACK ISE for Linux, but it works well enough > under VMware. > > The XC2S200 can hold an amazing amount of logic; it has 1176 > CLBs each of which has four 4-input LUTs and four flip-flops. And if > that's not enough, the XCV300E is about 50% bigger. > > And the really amazing thing is that the Spartan II parts are *cheap*! > The XC2S200 only costs $40 in onesies! > > If you really want a board full of parts, the XC2S15 costs around $7 and > could easily be used to make a replacment for any of the Am29xx bitslice > parts. I am really warming to this. My personal issue is that I use a non-PC computer. I run BSD and could compile and run almost anything that linux could run. Running a PC binary would be very slow (emulated). I'd hate to have to break down and get a PC. Is there any open source compilers for Verilog and VHD? That would be the biggest roadblock. I would imagine after I compile, the burning would not be hard since there is probably a straight forward protocol defined between the PC and the programmer that I could simply port. --- Andy ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: FPGAs (was Re: Are AMD2901 bit slice chips still available?) References: <6uofuo5of3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 28 Mar 2001 21:41:36 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 65 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 28 Mar 2001 21:46:47 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77583 I wrote about using the free Xilinx WebPACK ISE to develop Verilog or VHDL designs for Spartan II FPGAs. Andrew Carol writes: > I am really warming to this. > > My personal issue is that I use a non-PC computer. I run BSD and could > compile and run almost anything that linux could run. Running a PC > binary would be very slow (emulated). I'd hate to have to break down > and get a PC. > > Is there any open source compilers for Verilog and VHD? That would be > the biggest roadblock. The short answer to your question is that yes, there are Free Software [*] HDL compilers. For VHDL, look at Savant and TyVIS. Savant includes the SCRAM VHDL-to-C++ compiler, and Tyvis provides the runtime environment: http://www.ececs.uc.edu/~paw/savant/ For Verilog, you can use Icarus: http://www.geda.seul.org/tools/icarus/index.html The longer answer is that a compiler isn't really what you need, or at least not all you need. A VHDL or Verilog compiler lets you do a high- level simulation of your design. But when it's time to actually put your logic into the FPGA, you need other tools for logic synthesis, technology mapping, place and route, and (optionally) timing analysis. You might find Free Software for logic synthesis, but AFAIK there aren't Free Software (or Open Source Software) solutions for the rest. This is because the remaining functions are very specific to the FPGA architecture you're targetting. You generally need the FPGA vendor's own proprietary tool chain ("back end") for this part of the process. If you're serious about getting into FPGA design, and don't want to spend a lot of money, and don't want to use a PC, running the WebPACK software in simulation [**] will be your best bet. For small VHDL designs, the WebPack tools only take 1-2 minutes on my laptop with a Celeron 366 processor, so a simulation on a non-x86 processor will be slow, but not unbearably so. Neil Franklin has also pointed out another alternative, Xilinx JBits tools, which are written in Java and thus portable. In JBits, you have to write a Java program to generate your FPGA layout. Your program calls JBits to explicitly positions the logic elements and route signals between them. Neil likens JBits to assembly language; I personaly think it's a step below that. By which I am not criticizing JBits; it's a very valuable tool which is more commonly used for in-system reconfigurable logic. Best regards, Eric [*] Free Software is a subset of Open Source Software. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html [**] Emulation as it relates to computers was invented by IBM when they developed the IBM 360 family. They used the term emulation to refer to hardware or microcode assisted simulation. Without the hardware or microcode assist, you have a simulator, not an emulator.