Message-ID: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:06:02 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers To: wrjames@kudzucountry.com Subject: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 984200764 194 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76656 Wm James wrote: > Most people aren't aware the in the 40's most places required auto > inspections every moth or three months. Engines were good only for > 30,000 miles or so, tires to maybe 10,000. They were horrible > quality by todays standards, but you could sit on the without > denting them and they were easy to work on. There was a large shift in automobile technology in the 1970s, mostly forced (in the US at least) by the emergence of emission standards promulgaed by the environmental protection agency. Suddenly, tolerances were tightened up to where engines could not be worked on by hobbyists. Prior to this shift, every carburetor had an adjustment screw to tweak the mix rich or lean, and most do-it-yourself mechanics would adjust it with a screwdriver while listening to the engine sound to decide when it was rich enough. Under the new regime, many cars had engines that were factory tuned to run much leaner than had been customary, and the carburator was not field adjustable. Essentially, engine adjustments were to be done only with a CO-meter plugged into the tailpipe. This transition came naturally to Europe and Japan, where high gasoline taxes created a market demand for fuel efficiency, but it was very hard for the US, where it had to happen by regulatory fiat. In the Soviet Union, there was no environmental pressure, and the cars built by the Lada factory (cloned from late 1960's Fiat 124, then independently developed from there) were made to be repaired by the average tractor driver, and came from the factory with a complete toolkit, including vulcanizing innertube patches and a footpump! It is my understanding that this low-tech simplicity also pervades the Russian army to this day, unlike the US Army, whose large tracked vehicles require high-octane jet petroleum instead of being able to run on anything from olive oil via gasoline to kerosene like the Russian tanks. Of course, this selection of the simplest technology that will get the job done is critical to any efforts towards economic development in the 3rd world, but is often overlooked by economists without personal experience in the trenches. -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277 ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 10 Mar 01 19:40:38 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-984.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76525 In article <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> lars@cmc.com (Lars Poulsen) writes: >Of course, this selection of the simplest technology that will >get the job done is critical to any efforts towards economic >development in the 3rd world, but is often overlooked by economists >without personal experience in the trenches. I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. "Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that everyone _isn't_ out to get you." -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 12:44:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <98il1v$c79$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbgxKXAerWiGSsVhgri75cK3L3jAAeLdNg3I2xvs7a/3HcM7M6G/O0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 14:04:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-192 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76695 In article <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Speaking as somebody who still does most of the work on most of his >vehicles, I'd say the move away from maintainability was >consumer-driven. It takes effort to make a design maintainable, and >that effort has a price consumers are not willing to pay. It also has to do with product testing. My car (a Honda) was obviously designed by people who had garages and never had a car that was outside during a sleet or freezing rain storm. If they had tested this aspect, they would have found that the car was not drivable due to inoperative windshield wipers. And I know that those washing machine designers never washed their clothes. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:45:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.32.177.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 984293100 65.32.177.247 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:45:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:45:00 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76629 On 10 Mar 01 19:40:38 -0800, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" > paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much > comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested > interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for > service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and > greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. I'd bet cash (*their* cash) that the *vast* majority of it comes from liability carriers. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: Factory Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:06:06 +1100 Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98oluu$nj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: b3-143.melbpc.org.au X-Trace: possum.melbpc.org.au 984840380 28330 203.12.156.143 (17 Mar 2001 14:46:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@melbpc.org.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:46:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.melbpc.org.au!news.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76951 In article <98oluu$nj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk of the mothership connection said... > : maintainability is no longer considered - they just don't break any more. > : Sure, you can go an tinker inside your TV for a couple of hours and fix it, > : but it you do it for four hours, you're _losing_ money. > > : I mean, consider light bulbs... you used to be able to take them apart and > : replace the filament. > > Many a true word is spoken in jest (or at least I assume it is in jest). > About 100 years ago, one type of light bulb that was considered for > domestic installations was the Nersnt Glower. This thing has a rod or > spiral of rare-earth oxides. When heated sufficiently, it becomes > conductive, and the coil can be got to white heat by passing a current > through it. You need a ballast resistor to limit the current or the thing > will thermally run away. On a slightly tangental topic, my parents have a set of lampshades that have inbuilt bulbs, ie of a very nonstandard shape and obviously not made to replaced. They have a thick (about the size of solder wire), silverly wire for their filaments. They give off a very pure white light. I presume that are supposed to last the life time of the lamps, any idea if these are the mythical lamps that evil corparations have stopped coming on to the market so they can have a relyable profit in selling light bulbs? - Factory ###### From: Factory Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:06:08 +1100 Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: b3-143.melbpc.org.au X-Trace: possum.melbpc.org.au 984840382 28330 203.12.156.143 (17 Mar 2001 14:46:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@melbpc.org.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:46:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.melbpc.org.au!news.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76945 In article <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA of the mothership connection said... > > This isn't some sort of conspiracy, far from it, the TV's today are a lot > > better than they used to be. Quality continues to improve, and that's why > > maintainability is no longer considered - they just don't break any more. > > My main one has worked since I got it as a wedding present, summer of 76. > There has been some degradation of the mechanicals (rabbit ears, tuner) > but adding a VCR to the mix cured those problems. The joke wedding was > cured with a divorce. Strangely, the minor B&W TV has actually healed > bought in the 80s. This $90 cheapie once suffered vertical hold problems, > but has been healed by repeatedly applying fist to cabinet top. Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this is a part which is user maintainable and prolly should be accessable as maintaining the monitor. Most manufacturers won't even label the knobs (and several others which control other variables in the monitor). This is the type of stuff which should be accessable. - Factory ###### From: ron@ron-ws.wellsted (Ron Wellsted) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:27:35 +0000 Organization: (Posted via) GTS Netcom - Public USENET Service http://pubnews.netcom.net.uk Lines: 23 Sender: ron@wellsted.org.uk Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: ron@wellsted.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-62-31-178-8-wv.blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: taliesin.netcom.net.uk 984312075 4213 62.31.178.8 (11 Mar 2001 12:01:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@corp.netcom.net.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:01:15 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!ron Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76607 On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:45:00 GMT, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: >On 10 Mar 01 19:40:38 -0800, > Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" >> paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much >> comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested >> interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for >> service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and >> greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. > >I'd bet cash (*their* cash) that the *vast* majority of it comes from >liability carriers. > I agree, the manufacturer has no knowledege of the levels of skill or competence of the user involved so the simplest thing to do is to assume no capability at all and stick on the "No user servicable parts" sticker (of course most a.f.cers will just ignore this and wade in to fix whatever is broken, discover the design flaws and improve on it) -- Ron Wellsted e-mail: ron@wellsted.org.uk Website: http://www.wellsted.org.uk ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 11 Mar 2001 13:13:51 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: <98ftmf$3eb$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 984316431 3531 134.117.136.30 (11 Mar 2001 13:13:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2001 13:13:51 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76594 "Charlie Gibbs" (cgibbs@sky.bus.com) writes: > > I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" > paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much > comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested > interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for > service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and > greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. In the USA manufacturers and retailers may be terrified of lawsuits. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 11 Mar 2001 10:47:08 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984332825 8519 128.123.64.113 (11 Mar 2001 17:47:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2001 17:47:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!jobone!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76523 Speaking as somebody who still does most of the work on most of his vehicles, I'd say the move away from maintainability was consumer-driven. It takes effort to make a design maintainable, and that effort has a price consumers are not willing to pay. My favorite case in point is my '90 Toyota Pickup -- changing the PCV valve requires taking off the top half of the intake manifold; there are over a dozen hoses bolted to the underside of the manifold, so they all have to be disconnected. There is no plusible reason why the PCV valve couldn't have been put elsewhere on the valve cover so the intake manifold didn't interfere, or the dozen hoses bolted to the bottom half of the manifold. I have no idea why Toyota didn't move the PCV valve; I'll bet the hose arrangement is for manufacturing ease. And this from the same company that built the car on which I did my first head gasket... the wonderful-to-work-on 1975 Corolla. It's going to be *my* last Toyota, but there aren't enough consumers out there who care about being able to do maintenance for it to affect the company at all. Before anybody claims they're all like that, my '87 Chrysler Le Baron Turbo is, in general, a joy to work on with nearly everything out in the open where it's easy to get at. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:56 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Organization: By appointment only Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> Reply-To: jgd@cix.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 5300-tele-1-cluster.39.ip-pool.cix.co.uk X-News-Software: Ameol2 X-NO-MARKUP: Ad links from my words would be ... confusing X-URL: http://www.ameol.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!cw-insnet-peer-00!insnet.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.cix.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76624 In article <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com>, lars@cmc.com (Lars Poulsen) wrote: > It is my understanding that this low-tech simplicity also > pervades the Russian army to this day Mine too. > ... unlike the US Army, whose large tracked vehicles require > high-octane jet petroleum instead of being able to run on > anything from olive oil via gasoline to kerosene like the > Russian tanks. No such thing as "high-octane jet petroleum" these days; jet fuel is kerosene, and quite hard to set fire to. Some very early jet engines ran on aviation gasoline, the super-high-octane stuff that was used for high-powered piston aero-engines. It was a safety hazard, and not needed for more developed jet engines, so they gave it up. While lots of bits of the M1 series tanks are fancy high-tech, the gas turbine engine runs on anything from jet fuel to heating oil. Dunno about olive oil, but the ability to run on almost any petroleum derivative was a buying feature. The US Army normally run it on diesel just to have commonality with all their trucks and other vehicles which are mainly diesel-powered. sci.military.naval has been having a heated discussion on what it would take to move and supply a modern US armoured division by air. The fuel requirements for the division seem to be around 34,500 US gallons of gasoline, 257,000 US gallons of diesel, and 38,000 US gallons of jet fuel - per day of combat. The gasoline is for misc. vehicles and generators, the jet fuel for the helicopters and the diesel for everything else. --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:50:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.32.177.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 984336638 65.32.177.247 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:50:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:50:38 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76618 On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:27:35 +0000, > >I'd bet cash (*their* cash) that the *vast* majority of it comes from > >liability carriers. > > > I agree, the manufacturer has no knowledege of the levels of skill or > competence of the user involved so the simplest thing to do is to assume no > capability at all and stick on the "No user servicable parts" sticker (of > course most a.f.cers will just ignore this and wade in to fix whatever is > broken, discover the design flaws and improve on it) My favorite "user service" in my tech high school was when people brought their coke-infested boomboxen in for help. We'd open the case, sprinkle boraxo on the board... and wash it in the handwash sink, right in front of them. They'd usually freak; it was great fun. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:51:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.32.177.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 984336694 65.32.177.247 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:51:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:51:34 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76628 On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:56 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote: > sci.military.naval has been having a heated discussion on what it would > take to move and supply a modern US armoured division by air. The fuel > requirements for the division seem to be around 34,500 US gallons of > gasoline, 257,000 US gallons of diesel, and 38,000 US gallons of jet fuel > - per day of combat. The gasoline is for misc. vehicles and generators, > the jet fuel for the helicopters and the diesel for everything else. Yup; he who can deal with the logistical tail wins the war. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:52:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.32.177.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 984336757 65.32.177.247 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:52:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:52:37 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76630 On 11 Mar 2001 10:47:08 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > It's going to be *my* last Toyota, but there aren't enough consumers > out there who care about being able to do maintenance for it to affect > the company at all. Before anybody claims they're all like that, my > '87 Chrysler Le Baron Turbo is, in general, a joy to work on with > nearly everything out in the open where it's easy to get at. The first generation Saturns had this rep, too; damned near *everything except the transaxle* was up on top of that beautiful clean-sheet transverse engine. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:53:27 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 17 Message-ID: <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: raewyn.paradise.net.nz 984347607 14013 203.96.144.16 (11 Mar 2001 21:53:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:53:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news01.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76734 John Dallman wrote: >No such thing as "high-octane jet petroleum" these days; jet fuel is >kerosene, and quite hard to set fire to. Some very early jet engines ran >on aviation gasoline, the super-high-octane stuff that was used for >high-powered piston aero-engines. It was a safety hazard, and not needed >for more developed jet engines, so they gave it up. Gas turbines will run on darn near anything that will stay liquid in the tanks, vaporise & burn hot enough at engine temperatures/pressures, and won't clog the fuel system. Turbine ag aircraft designed for ordinary jet fuel are filled with diesel and flown every day in places where diesel is easy to get and aero quality kerosene isn't. Compare with recprocating aero engines, where it's (usually) high octane petrol or nothing. -- don ###### Message-ID: <3AAC20F1.F670F9C2@c2i.net> From: Arnt Karlsen Reply-To: arnt@c2i.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:05:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.240.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 984359136 193.217.240.64 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:05:36 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:05:36 MET Organization: Tele2 Norway AS Public Access Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!romeo.dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76754 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > Speaking as somebody who still does most of the work on most of his > vehicles, I'd say the move away from maintainability was > consumer-driven. It takes effort to make a design maintainable, and > that effort has a price consumers are not willing to pay. My favorite > case in point is my '90 Toyota Pickup -- changing the PCV valve > requires taking off the top half of the intake manifold; there are > over a dozen hoses bolted to the underside of the manifold, so they > all have to be disconnected. There is no plusible reason why the PCV > valve couldn't have been put elsewhere on the valve cover so the > intake manifold didn't interfere, or the dozen hoses bolted to the > bottom half of the manifold. I have no idea why Toyota didn't move ..no need, in Japan, owners are required by law, to have their auto engines junked and replaced, every 50 000 km... -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 11 Mar 2001 18:57:47 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1bhf0zlpes.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC20F1.F670F9C2@c2i.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984362265 28715 128.123.64.113 (12 Mar 2001 01:57:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 01:57:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76698 Arnt Karlsen writes: > > ..no need, in Japan, owners are required by law, to have > their auto engines junked and replaced, every 50 000 km... That's easily believable as a motivation for the design of vehicles for the home market, but based on what I've seen in Japan it's hard for me to believe that more than a vanishingly small percentage of 3.0 litre V-6s are sold there... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:47:12 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-160.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 984379904 taydal-207-55-144-160.ev1.net (12 Mar 2001 00:51:44 -0600) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76758 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > It's going to be *my* last Toyota, but there aren't enough consumers > out there who care about being able to do maintenance for it to affect > the company at all. Before anybody claims they're all like that, my > '87 Chrysler Le Baron Turbo is, in general, a joy to work on with > nearly everything out in the open where it's easy to get at. > A friend of mine had a Ford station wagon in the 1980's with an electric motor to roll the rear window up and down. The motor stopped working. The only way to get at the motor to replace it was to cut into the metal of the tailgate. The darn tailgate was *welded* shut over the motor!!! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3AAD0ABA.EBF5F2BC@thinkage.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:43:22 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 984419001 192.102.11.4 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:43:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:43:21 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76683 Don Stokes wrote: > > John Dallman wrote: > >No such thing as "high-octane jet petroleum" these days; jet fuel is > >kerosene, and quite hard to set fire to. Some very early jet engines ran > >on aviation gasoline, the super-high-octane stuff that was used for > >high-powered piston aero-engines. It was a safety hazard, and not needed > >for more developed jet engines, so they gave it up. Why would anyone waste high octane fuel on a turbine? The point in high octane fuel is that it burns SLOWER so that the thrust doesn't hit the piston until the down stroke. Low octane explodes faster and energy can wasted trying to push the back the rising piston. The JP4 jet fuel that so much fuss was made about is essentially low octane naptha, it gives more oomph in a turbine but is more of a fire hazard. ###### From: anonymous@nowhere.you.know Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 12 Mar 2001 21:12:04 GMT Organization: Unknown Lines: 18 Message-ID: <98je34$18ri@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <98il1v$c79$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76691 In article <98il1v$c79$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >And I know that those washing machine designers never washed >their clothes. Bringing up, once more, the glaring differences between Unix and Windows programs . . . :) Or Magnavox and JVC vcr's . . . or american and Japanese typewriters. I don't think the folks that designed my panasonic typewriter from law school had ever typed in a latin alphabet. It was bizarrely awkward in general, and keys worked (inexplicably) in different directions depending upon what you were doing (most particularly, text deletion. Also, where the cursor/head landed after deletion . . .) hawk ###### From: anonymous@nowhere.you.know Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 12 Mar 2001 21:19:10 GMT Organization: Unknown Lines: 18 Message-ID: <98jege$18ri@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu Cc: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76697 In article <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" >paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much >comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested >interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for >service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and >greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. But just how much that's inside *could* they let users service? The user servicable parts in the past were primarily the vacuum tubes . . . With replacement cost below the cost of a simple repair, there's not much room for service. hawk ###### Message-ID: <3AAD4821.4DAAFB10@c2i.net> From: Arnt Karlsen Reply-To: arnt@c2i.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98jege$18ri@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:04:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.239.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 984434699 193.217.239.217 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:04:59 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:04:59 MET Organization: Tele2 Norway AS Public Access Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uio.no!romeo.dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76755 anonymous@nowhere.you.know wrote: > > In article <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com>, > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > >I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" > >paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much > >comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested > >interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for > >service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and > >greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. > > But just how much that's inside *could* they let users service? The > user servicable parts in the past were primarily the vacuum tubes . . . > > With replacement cost below the cost of a simple repair, there's not much > room for service. > ..replacement costs _can_ soar beyond all reason, picture an auto break down in Alaska, an US State with US Law etc, and, an healthy appetite felt by polar bears... ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98jege$18ri@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 21 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:29:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 984450540 24.91.12.32 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:29:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:29:00 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76748 anonymous@nowhere.you.know writes: >In article <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com>, >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >>I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" >>paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much >>comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers.... I believe it's a requirement to pass UL testing and has been around since transistors began to replace tubes. (Underwriters' Labs and valves for you Brits, et al.) >But just how much that's inside *could* they let users service? The >user servicable parts in the past were primarily the vacuum tubes . . . I fixed Heathkits and KA-10s. Of course, those never had warnings about user servicable parts! -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Message-ID: <3AADD10A.44D2D9A7@ev1.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:49:30 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <98il1v$c79$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-253.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 984462759 taydal-207-55-144-253.ev1.net (12 Mar 2001 23:52:39 -0600) Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76759 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > It also has to do with product testing. My car (a Honda) was > obviously designed by people who had garages and never had > a car that was outside during a sleet or freezing rain storm. > If they had tested this aspect, they would have found that > the car was not drivable due to inoperative windshield wipers. > > And I know that those washing machine designers never washed > their clothes. > Damn!!! And I thought those guys in the dirty close were street people...now you say they are washing machine designers... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Maury Markowitz" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> Subject: Re: Simpler technology Lines: 29 Organization: none X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:10:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.12.235 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news3.rdc1.on.home.com 984517837 24.43.12.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:10:37 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:10:37 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news3.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76742 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com... > I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" > paradigm comes from environmental considerations, and how much > comes from concerted lobbying by manufacturers who have a vested > interest in forcing customers to either come back to them for > service, or to throw away the product and buy the latest and > greatest. Maintainability has fallen by the wayside these days. Not really, it's just that brains cost more than raw materials plus the machines to assemble them. For instance, TV's simply don't break that much any more, given that the average lifetime due to actual problems is over 10 years now (mine's 9, looks like new). You can buy one for about $200 bucks. That means that the repair cost is now a significant portion of the TV's price, whereas in the 50's it wasn't (they cost over 500 in 1950's dollars then). So when it breaks, you toss it and upgrade. This isn't some sort of conspiracy, far from it, the TV's today are a lot better than they used to be. Quality continues to improve, and that's why maintainability is no longer considered - they just don't break any more. Sure, you can go an tinker inside your TV for a couple of hours and fix it, but it you do it for four hours, you're _losing_ money. I mean, consider light bulbs... you used to be able to take them apart and replace the filament. Maury ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 13 Mar 2001 22:06:10 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 23 Message-ID: <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 984521170 9479 134.117.136.30 (13 Mar 2001 22:06:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 22:06:10 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76779 "Maury Markowitz" (maury@remove_this.sympatico.ca.invalid) writes: > ... > This isn't some sort of conspiracy, far from it, the TV's today are a lot > better than they used to be. Quality continues to improve, and that's why > maintainability is no longer considered - they just don't break any more. My main one has worked since I got it as a wedding present, summer of 76. There has been some degradation of the mechanicals (rabbit ears, tuner) but adding a VCR to the mix cured those problems. The joke wedding was cured with a divorce. Strangely, the minor B&W TV has actually healed bought in the 80s. This $90 cheapie once suffered vertical hold problems, but has been healed by repeatedly applying fist to cabinet top. > Sure, you can go an tinker inside your TV for a couple of hours and fix it, > but it you do it for four hours, you're _losing_ money. At those voltages, you're lucky if that's all you lose. > > I mean, consider light bulbs... you used to be able to take them apart and > replace the filament. Surely you mean arc lamps? ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 14 Mar 2001 20:57:02 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <98oluu$nj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 984605203 nnrp-08:8909 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76804 Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.sympatico.ca.invalid) wrote: : "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message : news:872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com... : > I wonder how much of the "no user-servicable parts inside" You know, I've always thought that statement is, in fact, true. When I need to service something, most likely it's broken. And if it's broken, I can't be using it. So I am not a user :-) FWIW, though, I repair just about everything I own. The proper way -- with 'scope and logic analyser -- not by module-swapping until the fault seems to have vanished. : This isn't some sort of conspiracy, far from it, the TV's today are a lot : better than they used to be. Quality continues to improve, and that's why I am not at all convinced of that statement. Certainly the picture on a correctly-set-up [1] _old_ TV is a lot better than that on most consumer-grade TVs today. [1] That, BTW, can be a problem. With delta-gun colour CRTs you have to set them up (about 20 adjustments) in the place they are to be used. Not the sort of thing the average user wants to bother with (I don't mind). And, I am _convinced_ the build quality of VCRs has gone down recently. Try comparing a modern $100 wonder to a Philips V2000 machine, for example. : maintainability is no longer considered - they just don't break any more. : Sure, you can go an tinker inside your TV for a couple of hours and fix it, : but it you do it for four hours, you're _losing_ money. : I mean, consider light bulbs... you used to be able to take them apart and : replace the filament. Many a true word is spoken in jest (or at least I assume it is in jest). About 100 years ago, one type of light bulb that was considered for domestic installations was the Nersnt Glower. This thing has a rod or spiral of rare-earth oxides. When heated sufficiently, it becomes conductive, and the coil can be got to white heat by passing a current through it. You need a ballast resistor to limit the current or the thing will thermally run away. Anyway, the 'bulb' consisted of the oxide coil with a little heating coil to get it started, the ballast resistor, and a relay switch. Since the coil of oxides can't burn away in air there was no need to evacuate the bulb. And when the oxide coil broke, you took the bulb apart and replaced just the oxide coil/heater assembly. The ballast resistor was another part that could be replaced separately. -tony ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:44:09 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 984614127 mail2news:19616 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76892 In article <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> don@news.daedalus.co.nz "Don Stokes" writes: > John Dallman wrote: > >No such thing as "high-octane jet petroleum" these days; jet fuel is > >kerosene, and quite hard to set fire to. Some very early jet engines ran > >on aviation gasoline, the super-high-octane stuff that was used for > >high-powered piston aero-engines. It was a safety hazard, and not needed > >for more developed jet engines, so they gave it up. > > Gas turbines will run on darn near anything that will stay liquid in the > tanks, vaporise & burn hot enough at engine temperatures/pressures, and > won't clog the fuel system. Turbine ag aircraft designed for ordinary > jet fuel are filled with diesel and flown every day in places where > diesel is easy to get and aero quality kerosene isn't. In a previous job, at an artillery range in Cumbria, I used to undertake the job of "duty officer"[1] about once every 15 weeks. Occasionally, it would happen that someone would go missing in a boat off the coast (bloody idiot amateur fishermen were *always* doing this) and so I'd have to get the surveillance radar operator out of bed and we'd mount a search. At first light, a chopper would fly in from either RAF Valley or Boulmer. So we kept aviation fuels on site for refilling their tanks. (Someone else that then needed calling out were the fire section and the MT storeman.) We had both AVTUR (kerosene) and AVGAS (gasolene). One day, they somehow managed to refuel a chopper with AVGAS instead of AVTUR, without anyone (including the pilot) having checked that the right fuel was supplied. The helicopter got back safely to Valley, but cost GBP90,000 (of 1970's money) for a complete engine refit. [1] It often resulted in nil call-outs, but occasionally one would get a report that one of the rail wagons on which were mounted either heated or refrigerated containers for keeping ammunation ready for the next day's trials at some desired temperature was either over-heating or over-cooling. So then I was the guy that authorized the overtime call-out for the duty electrician. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 16 Mar 2001 05:09:44 GMT Lines: 20 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYs1aGx9ZEitND7ibEYsWrTtN53mEzwHuaRCWqoMf8APeCq2dw3mBjn X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 05:09:44 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76848 Charles Richmond wrote: :> : A friend of mine had a Ford station wagon in the 1980's with an electric : motor to roll the rear window up and down. The motor stopped working. : The only way to get at the motor to replace it was to cut into the : metal of the tailgate. The darn tailgate was *welded* shut over the motor!!! A friend of mine in college had a car that needed some work done to it. Something relatively simple, like a water pump or something. He took it to the shop, and they called him some time later, with the quote. $BigNum, or if he let them drill a hole in body, a lot less. This didn't make sense to him, so he asked me. It didn't make much sense to me either, so I called 'em up and asked. Their answer was they had to pull the engine to get the bolts holding a pully on off, but if they drilled a whole in the inner fender, they could do through that. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 15 Mar 2001 22:30:45 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1blmq6nuuy.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984720642 2915 128.123.64.113 (16 Mar 2001 05:30:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2001 05:30:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76847 dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) writes: > > A friend of mine in college had a car that needed some work done to it. > Something relatively simple, like a water pump or something. He took it to > the shop, and they called him some time later, with the quote. $BigNum, or > if he let them drill a hole in body, a lot less. This didn't make sense to > him, so he asked me. It didn't make much sense to me either, so I called > 'em up and asked. Their answer was they had to pull the engine to get the > bolts holding a pully on off, but if they drilled a whole in the inner > fender, they could do through that. This sounds like the infamous Chevy Vega/Monza V8 spark plug hack... Originally designed for a Wankel engine that GM was never able to get to work, so they stuffed a small-block V8 in... with results exactly like you describe. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 16 Mar 2001 13:01:26 +0000 Organization: The Tardis Project Lines: 22 Sender: tfb@tardis Message-ID: References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 984747686 28521 193.62.81.1 (16 Mar 2001 13:01:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76830 dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) writes: > A friend of mine in college had a car that needed some work done to it. > Something relatively simple, like a water pump or something. He took it to > the shop, and they called him some time later, with the quote. $BigNum, or > if he let them drill a hole in body, a lot less. This didn't make sense to > him, so he asked me. It didn't make much sense to me either, so I called > 'em up and asked. Their answer was they had to pull the engine to get the > bolts holding a pully on off, but if they drilled a whole in the inner > fender, they could do through that. This kind of thing is nothing new. On Bugattis (which i guess means type 35s or something, but perhaps also the more domestic ones), if you wanted to do something like replace an exhaust valve, the first thing you had to do was take the back axle off. The cylinder head and block were one casting, so the only way into the cylinder was by taking the bottom of the engine off, & hence removing gearbox, prop shaft, back axle. (This may be an urban legend of course, and is definitely offtopic...) --tim ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:38:58 GMT Organization: BT Internet Lines: 27 Message-ID: <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-158-134.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76882 In article <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >:> >: A friend of mine had a Ford station wagon in the 1980's with an electric >: motor to roll the rear window up and down. The motor stopped working. >: The only way to get at the motor to replace it was to cut into the >: metal of the tailgate. The darn tailgate was *welded* shut over the motor!!! > >A friend of mine in college had a car that needed some work done to it. >Something relatively simple, like a water pump or something. He took it to >the shop, and they called him some time later, with the quote. $BigNum, or >if he let them drill a hole in body, a lot less. This didn't make sense to >him, so he asked me. It didn't make much sense to me either, so I called >'em up and asked. Their answer was they had to pull the engine to get the >bolts holding a pully on off, but if they drilled a whole in the inner >fender, they could do through that. > > I *have* a car like that - it's impossible to change the cam belt (and almost so to change the alternator belt) without pulling the engine and gearbox out. I discovered this the hard way (= expensive way) when the cambelt snapped last year... -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### Message-ID: <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:14:24 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-116.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 984781051 taydal-207-55-153-116.ev1.net (16 Mar 2001 16:17:31 -0600) Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76954 A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... or maybe 90% NAND gates. Can anyone post any info on this??? I have also read that Seymour Cray liked to sit on the front porch of his house and design computers using a wood pencil and a yellow pad of paper. If this is true, certainly that would qualify as being "simpler technology" than the CAD systems used today... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: william.hamblen@nashville.com () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.3 (Linux) Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:03:42 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-uhGnyEoSO42CxMpy8V/RtWtWJQMEFOrgKFuQieqSH3Zj6PAAiezowIn4ZGxwxvLwulsEWePjvjZ1SiE!x/DAt0rF5+uAGIA08QZFijhgMTI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 02:03:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news5.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!william.hamblen Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76939 In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the >Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... >or maybe 90% NAND gates. You can make any logic you like from combinations of NAND gates ... ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@ura <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3ab2d295$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 16 Mar 2001 18:57:25 -0800 X-Trace: 16 Mar 2001 18:57:25 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76904 In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the >Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... >or maybe 90% NAND gates. Can anyone post any info on this??? Oh the 1604 or 160A story (or the 6600). Perhaps 1 order or magnitude (maybe 6 types of transistors). Sorry, the Museum's copy of Murray is being borrowed. >I have also read that Seymour Cray liked to sit on the front >porch of his house and design computers using a wood pencil >and a yellow pad of paper. If this is true, certainly that >would qualify as being "simpler technology" than the CAD >systems used today... Well Gene Amdahl did that too. I remember first meeting him during the inauguration to Comp Lit bookshop in San Jose, and some guy asked him why he was so skeptical of parallel computers, and he said pencil and paper and math. What went on in Seymour's head we will never fully know. Comp.sys.super has a whole bunch of cray lurkers and ex-co-workers. He was clearly more more widely read than most people realized. There are no subtitutes for smarts. Just got a nice package from his widow Jeri. ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:30:44 GMT Organization: BT Internet Lines: 36 Message-ID: <98v0ag$rcj$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-47-195.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76950 In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net wrote: >A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the >Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... >or maybe 90% NAND gates. Can anyone post any info on this??? > Well, you can make every other gate from NANDs and I suppose it gives you a simple parts inventory... >I have also read that Seymour Cray liked to sit on the front >porch of his house and design computers using a wood pencil >and a yellow pad of paper. If this is true, certainly that >would qualify as being "simpler technology" than the CAD >systems used today... > I cannot vouch for Mr Cray, but my own experience using design tools - from freeware/shareware to expensive professional stuff - suggests that the people who design pcb/schematic capture software never use the tools for initial design. In the huge majority of cases, you cannot even use a component in its generic form (i.e. a NAND gate, an NPN transistor, a resistor) without also specifying its value, type number, packaging and so on. When I and the majority of my colleagues used these tools, we almost invariably designed on paper first and then transferred to the CAD tools only when we had some solid idea of what we needed. CAD tools are not good for doodling. -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 17 Mar 2001 20:22:07 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6uzoek9p5s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 984856927 2030 10.0.3.2 (17 Mar 2001 19:22:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 19:22:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76963 Charles Richmond writes: > particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the > Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... > or maybe 90% NAND gates. Can anyone post any info on this??? Cray-1, according to the handbook I once read (over 10 years ago), consists of exactly 3 types of chip: - dual NAND, 14pin, 1 5in-1out NAND, 1 4in-1out NAND, 3 power (this is ECL) - octal FFs, 24pin, 8 1in-1out FFs, 1 common Clk, 3 power (also ECL) - 1024bit SRAMs, unknown pinout, made by Ferranti (MOS or TTL) Also there were 2 types of 3-terminal resistors: - symmetrical, unknown ohms, used as 2 resistors (voltage supply on middle) - asymetrical, unknown ohme, used as voltage divider (supply on outer) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 17 Mar 01 16:55:31 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1109.476T1597T10154750@sky.bus.com> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-683.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76977 In article william.hamblen@nashville.com (william.hamblen) writes: >In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > >>A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >>has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >>particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the >>Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... >>or maybe 90% NAND gates. > >You can make any logic you like from combinations of NAND gates ... Similarly, I have a blurb on the Univac 9300 that implies that its basic building block is the NOR gate. I suppose that would work just as well, especially if you're clever at using negative logic. Limiting the number of different parts you need would certainly simplify things in some ways. That's arguably the strength of TTL - if it's easy to put another transistor on the die, why mess with other components (especially inductors, which would be particularly ugly). -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:39:59 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYsWRv+HuSQJr2GjIm1tOrD3bH3O383CGATdhkQiMY41u3WSVqMX7qy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 21:25:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77018 On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:06:08 +1100, Factory wrote: > Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure >if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will >dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) >which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be >fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 >secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the >monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this User can also blow himself if he touches the wrong thing with power on. >is a part which is user maintainable and prolly should be accessable as >maintaining the monitor. Most manufacturers won't even label the knobs >(and several others which control other variables in the monitor). > This is the type of stuff which should be accessable. -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: als@usenet.thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 17 Mar 2001 23:17:32 GMT Organization: Chemnitz University of Technology Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Reply-To: als@usenet.thangorodrim.de NNTP-Posting-Host: bofh.csn.tu-chemnitz.de X-Trace: narses.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de 984871052 21240 134.109.108.7 (17 Mar 2001 23:17:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tu-chemnitz.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2001 23:17:32 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!als Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77004 Arargh! wrote: >On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:06:08 +1100, Factory >wrote: > > >> Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure >>if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will >>dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) >>which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be >>fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 >>secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the >>monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this >User can also blow himself if he touches the wrong thing with power >on. That is the price they pay for not obeying the First Laws Of Fiddling With Things That Use Electrical Power (TM): 1. Know what your are doing. 2. Know very well what you are doing. 3. Don't fiddle with the innards of the thing while it is still connected to a power source. Of course, a monitor (or TV set) can still bite you even when powered off and disconnected from mains - the CRTs tend to hold quite a charge even after being powered down. Regards, Alex. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ EMail : als@thangorodrim.de | WWW : http://www.thangorodrim.de/ Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off. -- General Colin Powell ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 18 Mar 2001 01:38:51 GMT Lines: 22 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <9913jb$r2s$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaH7Qp89+AJ0rjJRLAox5bwAaGSFNZvP7Gd/8CAQ4WMjAcZFj36nTbk X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2001 01:38:51 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76979 Factory wrote: : Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure : if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will : dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) : which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be : fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 : secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the : monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this : is a part which is user maintainable and prolly should be accessable as : maintaining the monitor. Most manufacturers won't even label the knobs : (and several others which control other variables in the monitor). : This is the type of stuff which should be accessable. A number of Sun (really rebadged Sonys) monitors have a plastic screwdriver inside the case, which is presumably provided for the express purpose of adjusting these things. In my experience, it was usually the focus that needed fiddling with. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### Message-ID: <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:22:16 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-202.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 984875213 taydal-207-55-144-202.ev1.net (17 Mar 2001 18:26:53 -0600) Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77014 Factory wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure > if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will > dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) > which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be > fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 > secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the > monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this > is a part which is user maintainable and prolly should be accessable as > maintaining the monitor. Most manufacturers won't even label the knobs > (and several others which control other variables in the monitor). > This is the type of stuff which should be accessable. > While it is true that televisions need less adjustment since the days of tube-only television, I agree that adjustment controls should be accessable. (Although with the dumbing-down of the public, I am *not* sure that many would be qualified to use them...that is why so many VCR's are flashing: "12:00...12:00...12:00...") I recently acquired a Macintosh Classic computer in the old-style Mac case. It has a little plastic door to remove on the back...which exposes about eight potentiometers for adjusting the monitor. So apparently Apple wanted to make the monitor ajustable *without* embarrassing those who were mentally incapable of adjusting it by shoving the controls in their faces... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3AB41E53.2EDAF23B@ev1.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:32:51 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-202.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 984875847 taydal-207-55-144-202.ev1.net (17 Mar 2001 18:37:27 -0600) Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77017 william.hamblen@nashville.com wrote: > > In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > >A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray > >has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* > >particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the > >Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... > >or maybe 90% NAND gates. > > You can make any logic you like from combinations of NAND gates ... > Yes, I realize that...but this does *not* mean that you *have* to restrict yourself to use only NAND gates. The point was that Mr. Cray supposedly did the design using only the NAND gates...only *one* type of part instead of the *several* he could have used. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3AB44520.17CF5A01@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.74 X-Trace: uchinews 984892681 128.135.145.74 (Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:18:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:18:01 CST Organization: The University of Chicago X-SessionID: uqXs6-26260-E4-12639@uchinews X-Hash-Info: post-filter,v:1.4 X-Hash: 3ee23358 c0f927a8 d00ac54e 0748ea2d 0be63393 Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:18:24 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:76970 Charles Richmond wrote: > > So apparently > Apple wanted to make the monitor ajustable *without* embarrassing those > who were mentally incapable of adjusting it by shoving the controls in > their faces... That's an interesting way of expressing what their operating system is like. Substitute 'monitor' for anything. Simon -- Simon Allaway | University of Chicago | "It all makes sense now... Anthropology | ...banner comes with mount" 5-4390 Haskell Hall | - Lcoady ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 06:28:14 GMT Organization: BT Internet Lines: 33 Message-ID: <991kho$271$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-130-207.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77005 In article , Factory wrote: > > Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure >if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will >dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) >which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be >fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 >secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the >monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this >is a part which is user maintainable and prolly should be accessable as >maintaining the monitor. Most manufacturers won't even label the knobs >(and several others which control other variables in the monitor). > This is the type of stuff which should be accessable. Hmmm. Think of it as evolution in action. Those who know how to tweak those tweaks safely (eee...did I just noun a verb or verb a noun?) will locate them and tweak them. There are sufficient places - even after a monitor is disconnected from the power source - where a careless touch can have lethal effects, and plenty of tweaks which if not used in the right order, with proper set-up equipment, will fry the monitor. Those who have not learned the right techniques have either contributed to the bottom line of monitor manufacturors' profits, or will not be purchasing anything else...ever. There's a difference between 'user maintainable' and 'user accessible'. In most cases, it's maintainable - but only if you have access to circuit diagrams, test regimes, spare parts, and sufficient experience not only to do the job without killing yourself but also to complete it so the monitor is electrically and thermally safe. -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 18 Mar 2001 18:37:37 +0800 Organization: University Computer Club Lines: 27 Message-ID: <99235h$qsg$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> X-Trace: enyo.uwa.edu.au 984911859 5772 130.95.13.17 (18 Mar 2001 10:37:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uwa.edu.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77001 Charles Richmond writes: >(Although with the dumbing-down of the public, I am *not* sure that many >would be qualified to use them...that is why so many VCR's are flashing: >"12:00...12:00...12:00...") I have a theory about that based on observations of my technophobe parents: 1) On most VCRs that I've played with, setting the clock is an annoying and fiddly operation. If you're not overly familiar with the technology, it probably involves pulling out the manual and following the instructions. 2) Most functions of most VCRs can be used without having to set the clock. 3) A lot of people rarely need the few functions that do require the clock. 4) Clocks tend to have a very short memory, and will revert to the flashing 12:00 after any brief power failures. For some reason the manufacturers seem very reluctant to include a backup battery to keep the clock going. Power failures include unplugging the VCR so the furniture can be moved. 5) If it's a pain to set up a feature that you almost never use, you're not going to. On the few occasions my parents would like to record anything that's on when they're not home, they'll read through the manual (if I'm not there to help) and set it up. Next power cut, it's back to "12:00". John ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.22.1 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: <9mg9btk14obviejfgkao8k7g5heedudl28@4ax.com> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> <99235h$qsg$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:21:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.146.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 984925271 193.203.146.63 (Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:21:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:21:11 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77021 John "West" McKenna wrote, in <99235h$qsg$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>: > Charles Richmond writes: > > >(Although with the dumbing-down of the public, I am *not* sure that many > >would be qualified to use them...that is why so many VCR's are flashing: > >"12:00...12:00...12:00...") > > I have a theory about that based on observations of my technophobe parents: > > 1) On most VCRs that I've played with, setting the clock is an annoying and > fiddly operation. If you're not overly familiar with the technology, it > probably involves pulling out the manual and following the instructions. > > 2) Most functions of most VCRs can be used without having to set the clock. > > 3) A lot of people rarely need the few functions that do require the clock. > > 4) Clocks tend to have a very short memory, and will revert to the flashing > 12:00 after any brief power failures. For some reason the manufacturers > seem very reluctant to include a backup battery to keep the clock going. > Power failures include unplugging the VCR so the furniture can be moved. > > 5) If it's a pain to set up a feature that you almost never use, you're not > going to. On the few occasions my parents would like to record anything > that's on when they're not home, they'll read through the manual (if I'm > not there to help) and set it up. Next power cut, it's back to "12:00". From my mercifully very small exposure, mostly when stuck in hotel rooms on business trips, to TV as available in the US of A I have always thought that it was because the notion of actually wanting to tape any of it is too bizarre to contemplate. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 18 Mar 2001 18:52:27 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1b4rwq4jac.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984966746 8135 128.123.64.113 (19 Mar 2001 01:52:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 01:52:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77039 nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) writes: > > > I *have* a car like that - it's impossible to change the cam belt (and almost > so to change the alternator belt) without pulling the engine and gearbox out. > I discovered this the hard way (= expensive way) when the cambelt snapped last > year... Of course, some of us regard cam belts as a design flaw in the first place... cams are meant to be driven by chains (gears work better, but the clearances are too hard to work out). Yes, they're noisier, but you'll never have to replace it before you're doing a complete rebuild for some other reason. Yeah, three of my five vehicles have that particular design flaw (at least it's easy to change on the Le Baron, and I hear it's not too bad on the Intrepid...). -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 18 Mar 2001 18:55:52 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1b1yru4j4n.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984966950 8135 128.123.64.113 (19 Mar 2001 01:55:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 01:55:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!137.192.6.2!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77034 Arargh! writes: > > Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure > >if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will > >dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) > >which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be > >fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 > >secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the > >monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still > this I have never heard of such a knob. Phosphors burn out over time. > User can also blow himself if he touches the wrong thing with power > on. Or power off. Nasty voltages get saved in capacitors in there... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 18 Mar 2001 18:57:33 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1by9u234he.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984967051 8135 128.123.64.113 (19 Mar 2001 01:57:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 01:57:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77030 Charles Richmond writes: > > > While it is true that televisions need less adjustment since the days of > tube-only television, I agree that adjustment controls should be accessable. > (Although with the dumbing-down of the public, I am *not* sure that many > would be qualified to use them...that is why so many VCR's are flashing: > "12:00...12:00...12:00...") Some of us have VCRs flashing 12:00 because we just got tired of resetting the damn thing every time El Paso Electric decides to shut off the power for a half second or so. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: rhn@nicholson.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 2001 02:58:19 GMT Organization: a2i network Lines: 23 Message-ID: <993skb$iv8$1@samba.rahul.net> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@ura <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: waltz.rahul.net NNTP-Posting-User: rhn Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!typhoon.sonic.net!bug.rahul.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!rhn.a2i!rhn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77041 In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the >Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... >or maybe 90% NAND gates. Can anyone post any info on this??? I thought it was NOR gates, which in ECL are faster than NAND gates. The Cray-1 primarily used two kinds of ECL NOR gate, a 4 input and a 5 input, which came together in one DIP package. Also, most logic paths were designed so that they had exactly 6 gates and 4.5' of wire between registers. 80 MHz. Maybe something to do with standing waves in the power mesh (or with clock skew?). Need to dig my Bell and Newell book out of storage... IMHO. YMMV. -- Ron Nicholson rhn@nicholson.com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/ #include // only my own opinions, etc. ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:11:27 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <1b1yru4j4n.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaxWY1Kf+pBinPjWw9FgUM0fdHfJvhtRAcSkI7gZhujo6ekuxA4whWg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 04:57:16 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77068 On 18 Mar 2001 18:55:52 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >I have never heard of such a knob. Phosphors burn out over time. I have a monitor that did. That too. > >> User can also blow himself if he touches the wrong thing with power >> on. > >Or power off. Nasty voltages get saved in capacitors in there... Yes that also. But if your equipment had a properly designed power supply, ie, one that had bleeder resisters across the caps, that would only be a problem for a short while after power off. -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:11:28 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@uranium.btinternet.com> <1b4rwq4jac.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaUv3k+rxTbVUyFzgGt9/r9RM8gr8FnGCW6AFpamCVIsOGFLjuhc/fS X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 04:57:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77067 On 18 Mar 2001 18:52:27 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Of course, some of us regard cam belts as a design flaw in the first >place... cams are meant to be driven by chains (gears work better, >but the clearances are too hard to work out). Yes, they're noisier, >but you'll never have to replace it before you're doing a complete >rebuild for some other reason. Yeah, three of my five vehicles have >that particular design flaw (at least it's easy to change on the Le >Baron, and I hear it's not too bad on the Intrepid...). On the 'Le Baron' that I used to have, which was a 1973 Chrysler Imperial, it was a fibre timing chain. -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 18 Mar 2001 22:58:45 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1bvgp6b8q2.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <1b1yru4j4n.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 984981523 29913 128.123.64.113 (19 Mar 2001 05:58:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 05:58:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77032 Arargh! writes: > >Or power off. Nasty voltages get saved in capacitors in there... > Yes that also. But if your equipment had a properly designed power > supply, ie, one that had bleeder resisters across the caps, that would > only be a problem for a short while after power off. Has there ever been a monitor or TV where that was the case? I've sure never gone to discharge one without seeing a nice spark... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 04:13:42 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9nmbbt42s3i9tu3bfmand437qsrn69p8tq@4ax.com> References: <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <1b1yru4j4n.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bvgp6b8q2.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZhqak7EEmT1zDAsgsQE07NsCODmEwRZm/b2SXP9dXrsbbI+wwAcclF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 10:13:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77060 On 18 Mar 2001 22:58:45 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Arargh! writes: >> >Or power off. Nasty voltages get saved in capacitors in there... >> Yes that also. But if your equipment had a properly designed power >> supply, ie, one that had bleeder resisters across the caps, that would >> only be a problem for a short while after power off. > >Has there ever been a monitor or TV where that was the case? I've >sure never gone to discharge one without seeing a nice spark... I can't think of any. It must take so much effort to generate the anode HV that mfgrs don't want to make the power supply a little bigger to accommodate a bleeder. Might cost an extra dime. -- Arargh (at enteract dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Tim Bradshaw Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 2001 14:18:45 +0000 Organization: The Tardis Project Lines: 17 Sender: tfb@tardis Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> <1by9u234he.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk 985011525 9811 193.62.81.1 (19 Mar 2001 14:18:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@dcs.ed.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.224.53.60!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77033 Joe Pfeiffer writes: > > Some of us have VCRs flashing 12:00 because we just got tired of > resetting the damn thing every time El Paso Electric decides to shut > off the power for a half second or so. Is there teletext in the US? I've always wondered why videos don't set the clock from the (presumably very good) time transmitted with teletext. I guess 20 years ago this would have involved significant cost, but it doesn't seem likely now. Another thing that bugs me is that mobile phones don't set their clock from the network -- I *presume* that GSM (or whatever) has or could trivially provide good-quality time. --tim ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:34:21 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <985012461snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 985028451 mail2news:27808 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77064 In article tfb@tfeb.org "Tim Bradshaw" writes: > Is there teletext in the US? I've always wondered why videos don't > set the clock from the (presumably very good) time transmitted with > teletext. I guess 20 years ago this would have involved significant > cost, but it doesn't seem likely now. My nine-year-old (Grundig) VCR sets its clock from the teletext, but not willy-nilly: it would be awkward, for instance, if the incoming signal was of a satellite broadcast from a country in a different time zone. But it will use that data to set the clock under manual command: very handy next Sunday :-) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:36:49 -0000 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9955d4$ooc$1@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> <1by9u234he.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: host94.bjss.co.uk X-Trace: newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net 985012452 25356 194.152.80.94 (19 Mar 2001 14:34:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Mar 2001 14:34:12 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77071 > > > > Some of us have VCRs flashing 12:00 because we just got tired of > > resetting the damn thing every time El Paso Electric decides to shut > > off the power for a half second or so. > > Is there teletext in the US? I've always wondered why videos don't > set the clock from the (presumably very good) time transmitted with > teletext. I guess 20 years ago this would have involved significant > cost, but it doesn't seem likely now. My mother's VCR sets its time from Teletext. UK, of course. AFAIK Teletext never took off in the US, ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> <1by9u234he.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:50:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.34.13.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 985013437 65.34.13.112 (Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:50:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:50:37 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77053 On 19 Mar 2001 14:18:45 +0000, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > Is there teletext in the US? I've always wondered why videos don't > set the clock from the (presumably very good) time transmitted with > teletext. I guess 20 years ago this would have involved significant > cost, but it doesn't seem likely now. These days, yes, VCR's can be produced that will take a time hack from the VBI of the local PBS signal, most of which carry such a tick. > Another thing that bugs me is that mobile phones don't set their clock > from the network -- I *presume* that GSM (or whatever) has or could > trivially provide good-quality time. CDMA phones do in fact do just this, just one of the many things that make them a Big Win. Alas, they don't keep track of Actual Billable connect time, something which annoys me slightly less since my carrier set up a "dial for SMS message with your balance" number. Cheers, - jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 01 13:46:06 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1075.478T332T8263349@sky.bus.com> References: <985012461snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-126.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77084 In article rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner) writes: >In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > >>However, I seem to recall there having been a standard (NAPLPS, which >>stands for something like North American Presentation Level Picture >>Syntax) North American Presentation Layer Protocol Syntax (the "Presentation Layer" refers to the OSI model) >>for a Teletext-equivalent back in the early 80s -- though I think >>this was a higher-resolution vector graphics sort of thing... >>(probably nearer the sort of thing that's now presented as "Digital >>Teletext" on DTT in the UK). > >I thought NAPLPS was a graphics format/standard used for graphical >screens on dial-up BBSes in the early 90's...? NAPLPS grew out of the experimental Canadian Telidon system of the late '70s and early '80s, an advanced teletext system which never got off the ground. It had some pretty nifty graphics primitives. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 2001 19:35:26 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <995n1u$id@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 985034764 nnrp-13:26541 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 77 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77101 Joe Pfeiffer (pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu) wrote: : Arargh! writes: : > >Or power off. Nasty voltages get saved in capacitors in there... : > Yes that also. But if your equipment had a properly designed power : > supply, ie, one that had bleeder resisters across the caps, that would : > only be a problem for a short while after power off. : Has there ever been a monitor or TV where that was the case? I've : sure never gone to discharge one without seeing a nice spark... Yes, some monitors most certainly have EHT bleeder resistors. The one that springs to mind is a KME chassis, which has a bleeder resistor box on the side of the CRT's EHT connector. It has a thin-ish wire to chassis ground and, of course, a thick HV wire to the flyback transformer. This monitor was used on a number of older workstations in the UK -- the PERQ 2T1 and Whitechapel MG1, for example. The EHT generator module in the Moniterm monitors used on the PERQ 2T2 (and 2T4?) workstations also has a bleeder resistor inside. As do some Barco colour monitors -- I've had to rebuild the EHT multiplier chassis on one of these and I had to repot the resistors as a result (!). In those 2 cases, the EHT bleeder resistor consists of 2 resistors in series. It forms a potential divider, and the tap is used as a sense point for the EHT regulator circuit. In a lot of cases, the beam current of the CRT will discharge the EHT capacitor when the monitor is turned off. Of course this is no help if you are repairing a broken monitor (no display = no beam current = EHT could remain charged). And you shouldn't rely on this anyway. You should always check the voltage on the anode connector with a good EHT meter before disconnecting the anode connector and handling the CRT. Most EHT meters have a low enough resistance (OK, around 10^9 ohms) to discharge the CRT safely anyway. Don't _ever_ draw a spark from the anode connector to chassis -- this can damage the CRT (the high peak current can burn the connection between the anode coating and the connector) and it will almost certainly blow semiconductors all over the chassis. I've seen this happen all too often! I would like to emphasis, though, that the EHT is not the most dangerous voltage in most monitors [1]. For one thing, it's well insulated (it appears only on the flyback transformer and the EHT connector on the CRT). And for another, in general, the EHT supplies in most monitors can't supply that much currect. Accidentally touching the EHT connector in most monitors, particulalrly a monitor that has been turned off (so all that remains is the charge in the final anode capacitor [2]) is unlikely to be fatal. It will be very unpleasant, and the shock might cause you to break the CRT, cut your hand on sharp metal, etc, though. However, there are more dangereous (IMHO) voltages in there. Top of the list is rectified (and voltage doubled) mains on the primary side of the SMPSU. This is about 400V at essentially unlimited current (when the monitor is switched on [3]). And it's normally carried on bare PCB tracks on the mainboard -- which can be touched all to easily. And IMHO touching those could well be fatal. I would never encourage carelessness with any high voltages, but I am worried when I see people taking excessive precautions against contact with the EHT, not realising there more dangerous voltages on PCB tracks and components. [1] 'Most' == ones with flyback or HF oscillator produced EHT. Some vector displays (DEC VR14, etc) use a mains transformer to produce the EHT. Those are lethal -- very! Take great care if you work on one of these [2] The EHT capacitor is part of the CRT. It consists of the anode coating on the inside of the glass, a grounded coating on the outside of the glass flare, and the glass between them as a dielectric. [3] You can't do much in the way of fault tracing or alignment on a switched-off unit. You have to be able to work on it safely with the power on. -tony ###### From: rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <985012461snz@dsl.co.uk> Organization: Vector Internet Services, Inc. Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:33:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 985034039 209.98.98.8 (Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:33:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:33:59 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!rsteiner Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77145 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: >However, I seem to recall there having been a standard (NAPLPS, which stands >for something like North American Presentation Level Picture Syntax) for >a Teletext-equivalent back in the early 80s -- though I think this >was a higher-resolution vector graphics sort of thing... (probably nearer >the sort of thing that's now presented as "Digital Teletext" on DTT in the >UK). I thought NAPLPS was a graphics format/standard used for graphical screens on dial-up BBSes in the early 90's...? -- -Rich Steiner >>>---> rsteiner@visi.com >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4! The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. ###### From: scjones@thor.sdrc.com (Larry Jones) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 2001 20:54:06 GMT Organization: SDRC Integration Services Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com> References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <9859to$k5s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9885uj$5vu$1@top.mitre.org> <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <1b4rx0i4f7.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AAC8D0F.38192EB1@ev1.net> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tm Reply-To: larry.jones@sdrc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.sdrc.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feeds.jump.net!den-news-01.qwest.net!newsfeed.fuse.net!sdrc.com!thor.sdrc.com!scjones Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77073 barnacle (nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com) wrote: > > I have also read that Seymour Cray liked to sit on the front > porch of his house and design computers using a wood pencil > and a yellow pad of paper. If this is true, certainly that > would qualify as being "simpler technology" than the CAD > systems used today... I've also heard tell that when Apple announced that they had used a Cray to design their latest computer (the Lisa, if memory serves), Seymour remarked that that was interesting as he had used an Apple (II, I think) to design the latest Cray. -Larry Jones You can never really enjoy Sundays because in the back of your mind you know you have to go to school the next day. -- Calvin ###### From: anonymous@nowhere.you.know Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 2001 22:46:02 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 31 Message-ID: <99627a$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77083 In article <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >While it is true that televisions need less adjustment since the days of >tube-only television, I agree that adjustment controls should be accessable. >(Although with the dumbing-down of the public, I am *not* sure that many >would be qualified to use them...that is why so many VCR's are flashing: >"12:00...12:00...12:00...") I've had a much simpler reason for them flashing: it serves no real use to set it unless you actually record things, and power goes out too often (and they didn't include a capacitor to keep the clock going!). >I recently acquired a Macintosh Classic computer in the old-style Mac >case. It has a little plastic door to remove on the back...which exposes >about eight potentiometers for adjusting the monitor. So apparently >Apple wanted to make the monitor ajustable *without* embarrassing those >who were mentally incapable of adjusting it by shoving the controls in >their faces... oh, you can get yourself with those. Someone I know (hawk looks around innocently) reached inside a caseless se/30 to bend a piece of metal a bit farther. The cap was off the end of the tube (which was broken anyway), but it completely slipped his mind that the high voltage was on the side. He was thrown across the room (where there was fortunately a couch to catch him) and I, err, he, noticed that while not noticing a loss of consciousness, the secretaries were there far too fast . . . hawk, who would never do such a thing himself. ###### From: anonymous@nowhere.you.know Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 19 Mar 2001 22:56:03 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77087 In article <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >So we kept aviation fuels on site for refilling their tanks. (Someone >else that then needed calling out were the fire section and the MT >storeman.) We had both AVTUR (kerosene) and AVGAS (gasolene). One day, >they somehow managed to refuel a chopper with AVGAS instead of AVTUR, >without anyone (including the pilot) having checked that the right fuel >was supplied. >The helicopter got back safely to Valley, but cost GBP90,000 (of 1970's >money) for a complete engine refit. For last summer's move, I rented the monster Uhaul and the largest trailer. After being dinked around for hours ("there's a truck you can have 4 hours away,") I was finally happy to be told they had a new truck for me (a few hundred miles on it, iirc). Then I picked it up, and the stupid thing ran on gasoline instead of diesel. Back to unhappy. ANd the cab is significantly smaller than what they've used in the past (now it's a standard van-sized!). The increased fuel consumption cost me about $500. THen, when returning it, the hitch on the trailer failed. Talking to the mechanic sent out (who ended up hauling it off), there was a simple reason for the switch from diesel to gas: idiots kept putting unleaded in the tanks. hawk ###### Message-ID: <3AB6A8A1.31038F20@c2i.net> From: Arnt Karlsen Reply-To: arnt@c2i.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <1b1yru4j4n.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:49:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.209.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 985049358 193.217.209.14 (Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:49:18 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:49:18 MET Organization: Tele2 Norway AS Public Access Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!romeo.dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77146 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > I have never heard of such a knob. Phosphors burn out over time. ..I could use such a knob: Have a sony gdm-2038, which is senile: will _not_ sync vga. Last time I used it to access bios, it spent 22 hours trying, before getting it right. ..the next/last time, it spent a weekend, before I plugged in another screen. Right now it does 1280x1024x24bpp@70Hz just fine, however, leaving it on a screensaver, it drops out of sync in about half an hour. ..resetting the screen controls, has it _miss_ the screen by a 1/3, to the left. So yeah, I've written a few modelines to pull it back in. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ###### Sender: marc@hana.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <985012461snz@dsl.co.uk> <1075.478T332T8263349@sky.bus.com> From: Marco S Hyman Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. -- http://www.snafu.org/ Lines: 10 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:27:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.54.48.250 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 985051627 206.54.48.250 (Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:27:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:27:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77110 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > NAPLPS grew out of the experimental Canadian Telidon system of the > late '70s and early '80s, an advanced teletext system which never > got off the ground. It had some pretty nifty graphics primitives. Partially got off the ground? The original Prodigy application used NAPLPS. // marc ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:15:05 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 985118502 mail2news:9032 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77155 In article <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> anonymous@nowhere.you.know writes: > The increased fuel consumption cost me about $500. THen, when > returning it, the hitch on the trailer failed. Talking to the > mechanic sent out (who ended up hauling it off), there was a simple > reason for the switch from diesel to gas: idiots kept putting unleaded > in the tanks. On my last visit to Cyprus last year, I complained to the car hire company (a small local firm, whom I've used for over ten years) that my moderm Nissan kept on stalling when stopped at traffic lights (and also at some dodgy points on narrow steep roads when waiting for traffic to pass in the opposite direction). So Nestor swapped it for me, and had it serviced; turned out that the previous hirer had filled the tank with unleaded, despite the instructions given verbally and in writing to use Super leaded always. I suppose the hirers assumed that since the car was modern, it took unleaded (as it would do in many countries, no doubt). However, until *very* recently, unleaded fuel has not been widely available in Cyprus, especially outside the few major towns, and so cars are imported in versions that run on the universally available Super grade petrol (which, [mutter, mutter], costs half what it does in the UK, whilst diesel is about one-fifth of our prices). -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### From: Erno Palonheimo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 20 Mar 2001 23:08:20 +0200 Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> <1by9u234he.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: theremin.hut.fi X-Trace: nntp.hut.fi 985122501 20042 130.233.200.16 (20 Mar 2001 21:08:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntp.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Mar 2001 21:08:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!nntp.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77123 Tim Bradshaw writes: > Another thing that bugs me is that mobile phones don't set their clock > from the network -- I *presume* that GSM (or whatever) has or could > trivially provide good-quality time. At least some more recent Nokia models (ones newer than the 61x0 series) have an option of getting the time from the GSM network. -- Erno Palonheimo ; Unix system administrator http://iki.fi/esp/ ; Helsinki University of Technology esp@iki.fi ; +358505604765 ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 21 Mar 2001 00:27:21 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaT2h16QKcsLYHmeaxKJjPTf11fBxZ9c17qMCYipHjo0GBma2+O2bWg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2001 00:27:21 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77109 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: : In article <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> anonymous@nowhere.you.know writes: :> The increased fuel consumption cost me about $500. THen, when :> returning it, the hitch on the trailer failed. Talking to the :> mechanic sent out (who ended up hauling it off), there was a simple :> reason for the switch from diesel to gas: idiots kept putting unleaded :> in the tanks. : On my last visit to Cyprus last year, I complained to the car hire : company (a small local firm, whom I've used for over ten years) that my : moderm Nissan kept on stalling when stopped at traffic lights (and also : at some dodgy points on narrow steep roads when waiting for traffic to : pass in the opposite direction). So Nestor swapped it for me, and had it : serviced; turned out that the previous hirer had filled the tank with : unleaded, despite the instructions given verbally and in writing to use : Super leaded always. I suppose the hirers assumed that since the car was : modern, it took unleaded (as it would do in many countries, no doubt). They might have assumed, quite rightly, that leaded fuel is disgusting stuff that's got no place in the modern world, and refused to contribute totally senseless polution to the local enviornment. There's no excuse for lead in modern gasoline, there are much supererior ways to produce high-octane fuel. : However, until *very* recently, unleaded fuel has not been widely : available in Cyprus, especially outside the few major towns, and so : cars are imported in versions that run on the universally available Super : grade petrol (which, [mutter, mutter], costs half what it does in the UK, : whilst diesel is about one-fifth of our prices). That's still no excuse for having a vehicle that won't run on proper fuel. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 20 Mar 2001 21:43:19 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 985149797 11915 128.123.64.113 (21 Mar 2001 04:43:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Mar 2001 04:43:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77100 > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > : On my last visit to Cyprus last year, I complained to the car hire > : company (a small local firm, whom I've used for over ten years) that my > : moderm Nissan kept on stalling when stopped at traffic lights (and also > : at some dodgy points on narrow steep roads when waiting for traffic to > : pass in the opposite direction). So Nestor swapped it for me, and had it > : serviced; turned out that the previous hirer had filled the tank with > : unleaded, despite the instructions given verbally and in writing to use > : Super leaded always. I suppose the hirers assumed that since the car was > : modern, it took unleaded (as it would do in many countries, no doubt). I smell a rat. Contrary to what was widely believed for a long, long time leaded-only cars always ran just fine on unleaded -- valve seat wear would be faster, but they were still likely to outlast a car's first owner (yes, I'm talking about pre-hardened-seats cars). Even if the fuel used were substantially lower octane than the engine called for, the symptoms wouldn't be stalling at stop lights. I think you got fed a line. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 21 Mar 2001 19:38:41 +0800 Organization: Innovative Reckoning Message-ID: <99a3s1$d1c$1@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 985182094 7440 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77074 Joe Pfeiffer writes: >> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >> : On my last visit to Cyprus last year, I complained to the car >> hire : company (a small local firm, whom I've used for over ten >> years) that my : moderm Nissan kept on stalling when stopped at >> traffic lights (and also : at some dodgy points on narrow steep >> roads when waiting for traffic to : pass in the opposite >> direction). So Nestor swapped it for me, and had it : serviced; >> turned out that the previous hirer had filled the tank with : >> unleaded, despite the instructions given verbally and in writing >> to use : Super leaded always. I suppose the hirers assumed that >> since the car was : modern, it took unleaded (as it would do in >> many countries, no doubt). >I smell a rat. Contrary to what was widely believed for a long, >long time leaded-only cars always ran just fine on unleaded -- >valve seat wear would be faster, but they were still likely to >outlast a car's first owner (yes, I'm talking about >pre-hardened-seats cars). Even if the fuel used were substantially >lower octane than the engine called for, the symptoms wouldn't be >stalling at stop lights. I think you got fed a line. Or it was the wrong way around. Leaded fuel would cause the O2 sensor in the exhaust gas to become contaminated and it would no longer be able to adjust the fuel mixture resulting in very poor running... A quick-fix is generally to invoke limp-home mode for teh sensor by unplugging it which is less confusing for the stupid little electronic brain. It's much more likely that the wrong fuel would cause confusion to the engine management system, than mechanical failure or premature wear. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:02:23 +0000 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77179 In article <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer writes: [...] > I smell a rat. Contrary to what was widely believed for a long, long > time leaded-only cars always ran just fine on unleaded -- valve seat > wear would be faster, but they were still likely to outlast a car's > first owner (yes, I'm talking about pre-hardened-seats cars). Even > if the fuel used were substantially lower octane than the engine > called for, the symptoms wouldn't be stalling at stop lights. I think > you got fed a line. My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the engine. The car is over ten years old and while it does have an intermittent engine problem, that's not it. I can't believe people where paying >500 UKP to get their valves bored out and relined when these things were available. BTW, what happens if you put petrol (either kind) in a diesel engine? -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ Two atoms run into each other walking down | Work: dg@tao-group.com | the street. One says, "Are you all right?" | Play: dgiven@iname.com | "No, I lost an electron!" "Are you sure?" +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ "Yeah, I'm positive!" ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 13:47:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <99d4j2$gvg$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net> <99627a$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbSlLtPrwL9rqtUw+S97WSwaY3rtEcJhyfEEZoXegEAMO0MQb0qaaPN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2001 15:09:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-77 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77215 In article <99627a$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, anonymous@nowhere.you.know wrote: >In article <3AB41BD9.3917D823@ev1.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: > >>While it is true that televisions need less adjustment since the days of >>tube-only television, I agree that adjustment controls should be accessable. >>(Although with the dumbing-down of the public, I am *not* sure that many >>would be qualified to use them...that is why so many VCR's are flashing: >>"12:00...12:00...12:00...") > >I've had a much simpler reason for them flashing: >it serves no real use to >set it unless you actually record things, and power >goes out too often (and >they didn't include a capacitor to keep the clock going!). Nah. A side effect of that flashing 12:00 is controlling the power delivery system. Everytime I even thought about resetting my VCR cause the a power glitch. I kid you not. Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3AB92B24.BABE9DE@c2i.net> From: Arnt Karlsen Reply-To: arnt@c2i.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:30:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.207.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 985213832 193.217.207.236 (Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:30:32 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:30:32 MET Organization: Tele2 Norway AS Public Access Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!romeo.dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77265 David Given wrote: > > In article <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > Joe Pfeiffer writes: > [...] > > I smell a rat. Contrary to what was widely believed for a long, long > > time leaded-only cars always ran just fine on unleaded -- valve seat > > wear would be faster, but they were still likely to outlast a car's > > first owner (yes, I'm talking about pre-hardened-seats cars). Even > > if the fuel used were substantially lower octane than the engine > > called for, the symptoms wouldn't be stalling at stop lights. I think > > you got fed a line. > > My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works > on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had > installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a > cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange > column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the engine. ..uhmmm, how does the tin make it tru the hose wall into the gasoline? ;-) > The car is over ten years old and while it does have an intermittent > engine problem, that's not it. I can't believe people where paying >500 > UKP to get their valves bored out and relined when these things were > available. > > BTW, what happens if you put petrol (either kind) in a diesel engine? ..depends on _how_, spraying water and a wee dose of alcohol, into the manifold, it will run just fine. Spraying diesel oil, water and booze also works fine for gasoline engines. ..dump gasoline into the standard diesel tank 'n punp system, it might even start an warm engine, and will seize the injection pumps in a couple of minutes. ..my gf tried 25 liters of diesel oil in her Saab. Not _as_ expensive, and she almost made it to the garage. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 21 Mar 2001 17:47:27 -0700 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 985222045 6756 128.123.64.113 (22 Mar 2001 00:47:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2001 00:47:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77208 dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > > My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works > on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had > installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a > cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange > column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the > engine. The previous owners got scammed. Those gadgets have been on the market forever, and do nothing. > BTW, what happens if you put petrol (either kind) in a diesel engine? Nothing useful. The diesel compression wouldn't ignite the gas; I don't know if the glow plug would.... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer SWNMRSEF: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3AB95B68.F04157E1@ev1.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:54:49 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: rsvp-208-187-74-92.ac02.dlls.eli.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 985219071 rsvp-208-187-74-92.ac02.dlls.eli.net (21 Mar 2001 17:57:51 -0600) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77267 David Given wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > BTW, what happens if you put petrol (either kind) in a diesel engine? > KAAAAA-BOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 22 Mar 2001 03:01:48 GMT Lines: 46 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <99bpus$d4j$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbaB1GdpzIVUwlx2nE6kNkUwUDSUDCQIR1Zs0IDQUN+6cSKQDJ5ngLe X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2001 03:01:48 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77228 David Given wrote: : In article <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, : Joe Pfeiffer writes: : [...] :> I smell a rat. Contrary to what was widely believed for a long, long :> time leaded-only cars always ran just fine on unleaded -- valve seat :> wear would be faster, but they were still likely to outlast a car's :> first owner (yes, I'm talking about pre-hardened-seats cars). Even :> if the fuel used were substantially lower octane than the engine :> called for, the symptoms wouldn't be stalling at stop lights. I think :> you got fed a line. : My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works : on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had There's no such thing. Any gasoline engine will run on non-leaded gasoline. In many places, the first unleaded gasolines were of much lower octane than leaded ones, as lead was an octane enhancer, and some unleaded gas didn't have other octane enhancers in it. There are certainly engines that wouldn't run well enough to use such low-test gas. Given gasoline of sufficent octane, they will run just fine. Engine life may be much shortened, due to the lack of a lead coating on the valves and their seats, which prevents valve wear. There are few engines that can't be converted to run, with normal life spans, on unleaded gas by the use of hardened valves and valve seats. There are also lots of engines that will run for a really long time on unleaded gas, with no need to convert them. : installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a : cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange : column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the engine. I can't imagine this widget actually does anything, except make money for the theives that sell it. To be honest, I expect : BTW, what happens if you put petrol (either kind) in a diesel engine? It tends to go BANG!, or fail to run at all, depending on how lucky you are. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <22kkbtcavg8qnau958eapagscim4nhrd3j@4ax.com> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3AB92B24.BABE9DE@c2i.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:20:13 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 985289077 129.85.24.56 (Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:24:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:24:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77296 On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:30:32 GMT, Arnt Karlsen wrote: [ snip ] >> My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works >> on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had >> installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a >> cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange ^^ >> column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the engine. > >..uhmmm, how does the tin make it tru the hose wall >into the gasoline? ;-) -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:01:19 +0000 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77350 In article <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer writes: > dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: >> >> My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works >> on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had >> installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a >> cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange >> column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the >> engine. > > The previous owners got scammed. Those gadgets have been on the > market forever, and do nothing. [raises eyebrows] Well, I've been running it on unleaded for three years now, with nary a problem. Starts briskly, runs smoothly, decent fuel consumption. (There's a slight problem with condensation in the distributor cap, but I'd be seriously surprised if that was related.) If this thing *really* does nothing, then I'd be getting excessive wear on the valves due to them expecting lead lubrication. Is there any easy way of checking for this? -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ Two atoms run into each other walking down | Work: dg@tao-group.com | the street. One says, "Are you all right?" | Play: dgiven@iname.com | "No, I lost an electron!" "Are you sure?" +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ "Yeah, I'm positive!" ###### From: dscheidt@tumbolia.com (David Scheidt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: 22 Mar 2001 20:36:01 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: David Scheidt Message-ID: <99dnnh$71a$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGjD8mtFgfDFzX6ePCaKWrXPZL5IcP9hPlwPqi2WK7pj3gszO5B6iP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Mar 2001 20:36:01 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77317 David Given wrote: : Well, I've been running it on unleaded for three years now, with nary a : problem. Starts briskly, runs smoothly, decent fuel consumption. (There's : a slight problem with condensation in the distributor cap, but I'd be : seriously surprised if that was related.) None of which contradicts it doing nothing. I see two possibilities, the first of which is there's no reason the car can't run on unleaded gas of sufficent quality. (The manufacturers claims don't have anything to do with this. Many claimed engines had to be run on leaded simply because saying otherwise would have cost money, for testing if nothing else. ) The other is that you've got sufficent deposits of lead on the valve stems, valves, and seats that errosion of these deposits will take a long time. : If this thing *really* does nothing, then I'd be getting excessive wear on : the valves due to them expecting lead lubrication. Is there any easy way : of checking for this? Yank the head and look. Not that hard if you do it yourself. Depending on your engine, you may be able to tell by tappet clearances. When the valve or seat starts erroding the clearances will decrease. I've had a number of old Land-Rovers. My technique is to go until they burn a valve, and then fix things. Most engines will burn one valve before the others, so you're unlikely to get stuck. It costs the same to have the head rebuilt for unleaded gas when it needs it because a valve has failed, as it does to do it when it doesn't. Additionally, the car is 10 years old, it may well break some other way first. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ###### Message-ID: <3ABA9D5A.6C06F17@c2i.net> From: Arnt Karlsen Reply-To: arnt@c2i.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:50:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.215.144 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 985308601 193.217.215.144 (Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:50:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:50:01 MET Organization: Tele2 Norway AS Public Access Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!romeo.dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77352 David Given wrote: > > In article <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > Joe Pfeiffer writes: > > dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > >> > >> My car, which is an ancient E reg Maestro, has an engine that only works > >> on leaded petrol and can't be converted. However, the previous owners had > >> installed a widget that makes it run fine on unleaded --- it's a > >> cylindrical thing that goes in the fuel line. I think it's an ion exchange > >> column of some kind that adds tin to the fuel being passed to the > >> engine. > > > > The previous owners got scammed. Those gadgets have been on the > > market forever, and do nothing. > > [raises eyebrows] > > Well, I've been running it on unleaded for three years now, with nary a > problem. Starts briskly, runs smoothly, decent fuel consumption. (There's > a slight problem with condensation in the distributor cap, but I'd be > seriously surprised if that was related.) > > If this thing *really* does nothing, then I'd be getting excessive wear on > the valves due to them expecting lead lubrication. Is there any easy way > of checking for this? ..look for blueish smoke coming out the tailpipe. Main sources are valve stem/liner wear, then piston ring wear. No smoke, no problem. Smoke; plan an overhaul or replacement. ..no immediate danger, however avoid long trips to Alaska in the winter, unless you haul a mobile garage or can replace valve stem liners comfortably in snowstorms. ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tm <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3abb1e50$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 23 Mar 2001 01:58:40 -0800 X-Trace: 23 Mar 2001 01:58:40 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77302 In article <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com>, Larry Jones wrote: >I've also heard tell that when Apple announced that they had used a Cray >to design their latest computer (the Lisa, if memory serves), Seymour >remarked that that was interesting as he had used an Apple (II, I think) >to design the latest Cray. c.s.s. FAQ %A Marcelo A. Gumucio %T CRI Corporate Report %J Cray User Group 1988 Spring Proceedings %C Minneapolis, MN %D 1988 %P 23-28 %K 21st Meeting %X Seymour has 6 Apple Macs (Macintosh) used to design Crays (not just one). Q&A section. [Gordon Bell {See the IBM panel} admits he designs his computers on Macs, too.] [Edward Teller designs thermonuclear devices on a Mac.] Lisa: wrong. II: wrong, Mac. I have concluded that the injection molding was worthless. The X-MP/48 was wasted. Instead it delays Apple from more rigid metal cases than flimsy plastic laptop cases.. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tmjt$f7b$2@ura <98v0ag$rcj$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3abb2127$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 23 Mar 2001 02:10:47 -0800 X-Trace: 23 Mar 2001 02:10:47 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77299 In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net wrote: >A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >particular transistor. I checked the Museum's copy of Murray. This machine would have to have been the CDC 1604. But he cites at least 2 kinds of transistor and maybe more. 1 manufacturer. Unless you can remember what you read. I should check Thorton, too. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98tmjt$f7b$2@ura <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net> <993skb$iv8$1@samba.rahul.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3abb2347$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 23 Mar 2001 02:19:51 -0800 X-Trace: 23 Mar 2001 02:19:51 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.114.129.38.MISMATCH!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77300 In article <993skb$iv8$1@samba.rahul.net>, wrote: >In article <3AB2AC5F.18587ED@ev1.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: >>A little more *on* topic here: I have read that Seymour Cray >>has designed entire computers only using many instances of *one* >>particular transistor. And also I have read that some of the >>Cray supercomputers were designed using only NAND gates... >>or maybe 90% NAND gates. Can anyone post any info on this??? > >I thought it was NOR gates, which in ECL are faster than NAND gates. >The Cray-1 primarily used two kinds of ECL NOR gate, a 4 input and a >5 input, which came together in one DIP package. ... >Need to dig my Bell and Newell book out of storage... You want the Sieworek Bell and Newell edition. %A Richard M. Russell %T The Cray-1 Computer System %J Communications of the ACM %V 21 %N 1 %P 63-72 %D January 1978 %K bhibbard %K frecommended91, enm, j-lb, existing classic architecture, historic, maeder biblio: parallel hardware and devices, implementation, ginsberg biblio: %X The original paper describing the Cray-1. This paper is reproduced in Kuhn and Padua's (1981, IEEE) survey "Tutorial on Parallel Processing." Also reproduced in "Computer Structures: Principles and Examples" by Daniel P. Siewiorek, C. Gordon Bell, and Allen Newell, McGraw-Hill, 1982, pp. 743-752. Reproduced in Dharma P. Agrawal's (ed.) "Advanced Computer Architecture," IEEE, 1986, pp.15-24. %X WDH: This is a good overview of the Cray-1 hardware. %X TK: Of interest is the fact that there are essentially no bypass capacitors in the machine, because it has essentially constant current ... ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:34:51 +0000 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 References: <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <98gs4n$dlt$1@raewyn.paradise.net.nz> <984613449snz@dsl.co.uk> <9962q3$nh0@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <985115705snz@dsl.co.uk> <998sh9$ktl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <1br8zrn34o.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bd7bar5nk.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3ABA9D5A.6C06F17@c2i.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!comnets.rwth-aachen.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77347 In article <3ABA9D5A.6C06F17@c2i.net>, Arnt Karlsen writes: [...] > ..look for blueish smoke coming out the tailpipe. Main > sources are valve stem/liner wear, then piston ring wear. > No smoke, no problem. Smoke; plan an overhaul or replacement. No smoke. > ..no immediate danger, however avoid long trips to Alaska in > the winter, unless you haul a mobile garage or can replace > valve stem liners comfortably in snowstorms. ;-) From where I live, Alaska would be a *long* trip. Anyway, I'm planning on binning the thing ASAP anyway, so it'll no doubt last a couple more months. Thanks. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ Two atoms run into each other walking down | Work: dg@tao-group.com | the street. One says, "Are you all right?" | Play: dgiven@iname.com | "No, I lost an electron!" "Are you sure?" +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ "Yeah, I'm positive!" ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <98tm <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com> <3abb1e50$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:46:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.52.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 985355186 63.14.52.26 (Fri, 23 Mar 2001 05:46:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 05:46:26 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77321 eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) writes: > In article <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com>, > Larry Jones wrote: > >I've also heard tell that when Apple announced that they had used a Cray > >to design their latest computer (the Lisa, if memory serves), Seymour > >remarked that that was interesting as he had used an Apple (II, I think) > >to design the latest Cray. > > c.s.s. FAQ > > %A Marcelo A. Gumucio > %T CRI Corporate Report > %J Cray User Group 1988 Spring Proceedings > %C Minneapolis, MN > %D 1988 > %P 23-28 > %K 21st Meeting > %X Seymour has 6 Apple Macs (Macintosh) used to design Crays (not just one). > Q&A section. > > [Gordon Bell {See the IBM panel} admits he designs his computers on Macs, too.] > [Edward Teller designs thermonuclear devices on a Mac.] > > Lisa: wrong. > II: wrong, Mac. I had a friend that did much of the programming of the cray for the human interface for the mac ... a lot of what he was doing was (over) driving the I/O to the frame buffer ... investigating a lot of human factors threshhold factors. Being able to operate the human interface at 10* or more faster than what it would nominal be ... allowed them to instrument at lot of things and vary a number of factors to see if any made much significant difference in the human performance. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: diskette@shell2.fdn.com (STD DIALUP) Subject: Re: Simpler technology Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <988e2c013s7@drn.newsguy.com> <0ESp6.32638$lj4.774914@news6.giganews.com> <3AA876E6.9583A9@clifto.com> <98amhr$l7s$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <3AA9B63A.4629F2FB@cmc.com> <872.469T1920T11805149@sky.bus.com> <98m5ki$987$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1AMv6.2115$e9.46039@news1.fdn.com> Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:16:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.199.0.138 X-Trace: news1.fdn.com 985634173 216.199.0.138 (Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:16:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:16:13 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news1.fdn.com!shell2!diskette Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77488 Talking about the flyback transformer & the little knobs on it labeled screen & focus. A little chancy considering that the adjustment has to be done with the power on & the hand being placed too close to 20,000 volts or so. Factory (factory@programmer.net) wrote: : Hmm one thing about CRTs, at least in computer monitors, I'm not sure : if it is the same in consumer televisions, is that the brightness will : dim or brighten over time (some voltage thingamijig going out of whack) : which the user brightness will not be able to compensate for. This can be : fixed by merely twiddling a knob inside the monitor, it takes about 2 : secs (once the case is opened). Granted a user apparantly can blow the : monitor by moving this knob too far in either direction, but still this : is a part which is user maintainable and prolly should be accessable as : maintaining the monitor. Most manufacturers won't even label the knobs : (and several others which control other variables in the monitor). : This is the type of stuff which should be accessable. : - Factory ###### From: "Allen J. Baum" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <98s76o$mut$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com> <3abb1e50$1@news.ucsc.edu> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 34 Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:01:38 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.2.96.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@Compaq.com X-Trace: news.cpqcorp.net 985723308 16.2.96.100 (Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:01:48 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:01:48 PST Organization: Compaq Computer Corporation Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.compaq.com!news.cpqcorp.net!allen.baum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77596 >Larry Jones wrote: >>I've also heard tell that when Apple announced that they had used a Cray >>to design their latest computer (the Lisa, if memory serves), Actually, Apple had planned to use the Cray to design a machine based on their own SMP RISC processor chip, but it was eventually killed off (for a number of reasons) by what eventually became PPC. The only thing the Cray was actually used for was mold-flow analysis of the plastic cases for Macs. >Seymour remarked that that was interesting as he had used an Apple (II, I think) >>to design the latest Cray. As Eugene mentioned, it was a Mac - mostly, he used MacDraw and MacPaint as a mechanical CAD design tool-I don't know if he ever did simulations or logic design or anything else on the Mac. >I have concluded that the injection molding was worthless. >The X-MP/48 was wasted. Instead it delays Apple from more rigid metal cases >than flimsy plastic laptop cases. The Cray was wasted as a simulation engine for a new processor design also - a pile of Sun workstations seem to do a better job of runnng simulations jobs that needed big memory. -- ********************************************** * Allen J. Baum tel. (650)853-6626 * * Compaq Computer Corp. fax (650)853-6513 * * 181 Lytton Ave. * * Palo Alto, CA 95306 abaum@pa.dec.com * ********************************************** ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Simpler technology References: <3aa47d31.11561380@news.cableinet.co.uk> <995rle$4s0@nfs0.sdrc.com> <3abb1e50$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3ac13bce$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Mar 2001 17:18:06 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Mar 2001 17:18:06 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:77528 In article , Allen J. Baum wrote: >The only thing the Cray was actually used for was mold-flow analysis >of the plastic cases for Macs. It was also used as a mass storage server, for DMF when they went to an EL. Erik gave me a tee-shirt (which I have since donated to the Museum). In some ways, I am sorry that we pointed Kent your way. He had to move onto something after the Unix wars. >As Eugene mentioned, it was a Mac - mostly, he used MacDraw and MacPaint >as a mechanical CAD design tool-I don't know if he ever did simulations or >logic design or anything else on the Mac. I suspect that he did. The person to ask is SOG over in c.s.s. who would likely know. He was a pretty sharp fellow and he wasn't a stickler about programming. Unfortunately, he was thinking beyond most people's thoughts to all kinds of other subtrates, and people were just too busy with Si and other problems. >>I have concluded that the injection molding was worthless. >>The X-MP/48 was wasted. Instead it delays Apple from more rigid metal cases >>than flimsy plastic laptop cases. > >The Cray was wasted as a simulation engine for a new processor design also - >a pile of Sun workstations seem to do a better job of runnng simulations jobs >that needed big memory. Any byte level work was wasted.