Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 03 Feb 2001 18:21:53 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 74 Message-ID: <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 981220913 1527 10.0.3.2 (3 Feb 2001 17:21:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 2001 17:21:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74862 Eric Chomko writes: > Don Stokes wrote: > : In article <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM>, > : wrote: > : >My son and I both worked for DRI and would be very rich today if DRI > : >had said yes and sold CP/M to IBM. There would not be any Windows and > : >Gates would not be so rich. and . . . . . . . > > : . . . . DRI would be a huge outfit, selling DR-Windows, which crashed > : all the time, and Gary Kildall would be labelled as the Antichrist, since > : after all, CP/M was just a rip-off of RT-11 and/or OS/8 with all the > : good bits taken out ... > > The rumor I heard was that Kildall was flying his plane when IBM came > calling for an OS. And that old hat is circulating again. It is not true. From an old pos of minet: --------------------- From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS is Stolen! Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:46:21 +0100 Message-ID: <351D99DD.70EDED54@ccw.ch> Matt Ackeret wrote: > In article <6fhqh6$7ra@world6.bellatlantic.net>, > George Gray wrote: > >As for DR, Gary Kildall (may he RIP) was no genious as far as business was > >concerned. He just assumed that CP/M-86 would sell itself-that IBM should > >already know how great it was and buy it. He went on a golfing trip instead > >of meeting with IBM. > > Where is your proof of this? The usual myth is that he was "out flying" > instead of meeting with IBM. > > The true story seems to be that he didn't want to sign non-disclosure > agreements with IBM to even talk with them, so that's why IBM went to > Microsoft. I second you on that one, with one small correction: It was Gary's wife, Dorothy. Gary was the techie and did the development stuff. His Dorothy did the business side of things. IBM appeard with the intent to license CP/M. They plonked down their standard NDA (secrecy about what they are doing, etc...). Dorothy looked at it. Didn't understand it (she was no hardened computer exec and apparently regarded IBM as yet annother of these many companies that come to license). Was scared by the legalese. So she took it to an befriended lawyer to have it look over. He suggested some changes. IBM was stymied about this (this was their standard NDA their law department has developed over years...). Now they had the problem of getting changes ratified. In the mean time the visit to Microsoft (to license BASIC) came. Either they mentioned the CP/M trouble or Bill had heard it in the Grapevine) and he know of Paterson. He asked IBM if they would be interested an alternative to CP/M. They said yes. So Bill went to Paterson an bought 86-DOS, modified it to MS-DOS and licensed it to IBM who called it PC-DOS. Source: TV interview with the IBM Manager (Jack Sams) involved in this episode. No, I am not sending out copies of the video :-) --------------------- -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 04 Feb 2001 03:57:00 +0800 Message-ID: <87g0hvh75f.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 074.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 4 Feb 2001 04:01:38 +0800, 074.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74892 Neil Franklin writes: > alternative to CP/M. They said yes. So Bill went to Paterson an bought > 86-DOS, modified it to MS-DOS and licensed it to IBM who called it > PC-DOS. One nit. He sold first, and bought two days later. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 04 Feb 2001 20:06:02 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6u66iq9skl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM><981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <87g0hvh75f.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 981313562 1365 10.0.3.2 (4 Feb 2001 19:06:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2001 19:06:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74930 Paul Repacholi writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > > alternative to CP/M. They said yes. So Bill went to Paterson an bought > > 86-DOS, modified it to MS-DOS and licensed it to IBM who called it > > PC-DOS. > > One nit. He sold first, and bought two days later. Now why does that not surprise me? :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 5 Feb 2001 17:55:18 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 28 Message-ID: <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74962 Neil Franklin wrote: : Eric Chomko writes: [...] : > The rumor I heard was that Kildall was flying his plane when IBM came : > calling for an OS. : And that old hat is circulating again. It is not true. [...] : In the mean time the visit to Microsoft (to license BASIC) came. Either : they mentioned the CP/M trouble or Bill had heard it in the Grapevine) : and he know of Paterson. He asked IBM if they would be interested an : alternative to CP/M. They said yes. So Bill went to Paterson an bought : 86-DOS, modified it to MS-DOS and licensed it to IBM who called it : PC-DOS. : Source: TV interview with the IBM Manager (Jack Sams) involved in this : episode. No, I am not sending out copies of the video :-) : --------------------- Thanks for clearing that up. Now what about the rumor regarding the way he died? I heard he fell off a barstool in a bar in Salinas and died. Something to the effect that he started hitting the sauce pretty hard when he realized that he rather than Gates could have been the billionare. Any truth to that? Eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 5 Feb 2001 13:11:03 -0800 X-Trace: 5 Feb 2001 13:11:03 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74939 In article <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >Neil Franklin wrote: >: Source: TV interview with the IBM Manager (Jack Sams) involved in this >: episode. No, I am not sending out copies of the video :-) That's Trimupth of the Nerds (Oregon PBS). >Thanks for clearing that up. Now what about the rumor regarding the way he >died? I heard he fell off a barstool in a bar in Salinas and died. >Something to the effect that he started hitting the sauce pretty hard when >he realized that he rather than Gates could have been the billionare. Any >truth to that? I had a boss who worked at DRI after that. Gary was reasonably set after that. He wasn't hurting for money. He used to tape the occcasional Computer Chronicles. I met him at a Hackers back in the 80s. Salinas? His death was reasonably well chronicled by the press. I don't know it off the top of my head, but you should be able to find a news paper with it. ###### Message-ID: <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:18:17 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 981436700 191 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news.netcologne.de!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75012 Eugene Miya wrote: > I had a boss who worked at DRI after that. Gary was reasonably set after that. > He wasn't hurting for money. He used to tape the occcasional > Computer Chronicles. I met him at a Hackers back in the 80s. > Salinas? His death was reasonably well chronicled by the press. I > don't know it off the top of my head, but you should be able to find a > news paper with it. I searched and most articles said it was murky, with conflicting stories. This is the most plausible: On July 6, 1994 Kildall, 52, walked into a Monterey bar. He was wearing motorcycle leathers with Harley-Davidson patches; a would-be biker. There were some real bikers in the bar. Something was said. There was pushing and shoving, and Kildall died from injuries sustained to his head. An inquest called the death "suspicious," but no one was charged. (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1997/0707/6001336a_2.html) -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277 ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 6 Feb 2001 01:32:16 -0800 X-Trace: 6 Feb 2001 01:32:16 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74940 In article <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com>, Lars Poulsen wrote: >I searched and most articles said it was murky, with conflicting stories. That's figures. I have to run down to Monterey tomorrow to collect some rare computers. If I have time, I will check out better sources. I have to get back in time for the Stork HAL talk at the Museum. I can check with my old boss. I have not interest working on another Monterey crime (murder). But definitely not Salinas. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 9 Feb 2001 17:57:08 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75154 Eugene Miya wrote: : In article <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, : Eric Chomko wrote: : >Neil Franklin wrote: : >: Source: TV interview with the IBM Manager (Jack Sams) involved in this : >: episode. No, I am not sending out copies of the video :-) : That's Trimupth of the Nerds (Oregon PBS). : >Thanks for clearing that up. Now what about the rumor regarding the way he : >died? I heard he fell off a barstool in a bar in Salinas and died. : >Something to the effect that he started hitting the sauce pretty hard when : >he realized that he rather than Gates could have been the billionare. Any : >truth to that? : I had a boss who worked at DRI after that. Gary was reasonably set after that. : He wasn't hurting for money. He used to tape the occcasional : Computer Chronicles. I met him at a Hackers back in the 80s. : Salinas? His death was reasonably well chronicled by the press. I : don't know it off the top of my head, but you should be able to find a : news paper with it. Maybe it was Monterey, which is next to Pacific Grove. Salinas is about 10 miles from Monterey, inland from the Monterey peninsula. PG is where DRI was located, I believe. The article I read was sketchy at best. Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 9 Feb 2001 18:10:50 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <961bra$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75180 Lars Poulsen wrote: : Eugene Miya wrote: [...] : > don't know it off the top of my head, but you should be able to find a : > news paper with it. : I searched and most articles said it was murky, with conflicting : stories. This is the most plausible: : On July 6, 1994 Kildall, 52, walked into a Monterey bar. He was : wearing motorcycle leathers with Harley-Davidson patches; : a would-be biker. : There were some real bikers in the bar. Something was said. : There was pushing and shoving, and Kildall died from injuries : sustained to his head. : An inquest called the death "suspicious," but no one was charged. It was Monterey then. Strange, indeed. Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 9 Feb 2001 18:16:39 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75138 Eugene Miya wrote: : In article <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com>, Lars Poulsen wrote: : >I searched and most articles said it was murky, with conflicting stories. : That's figures. : I have to run down to Monterey tomorrow to collect some rare computers. : If I have time, I will check out better sources. I have to get back in : time for the Stork HAL talk at the Museum. I can check with my old boss. : I have not interest working on another Monterey crime (murder). : But definitely not Salinas. Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? And at the risk of sounding overly inqusitiive, what rare computers are in Monterey? Computers do seem to be scare in Monterey, but that seems to be simply because they are short on suppliers there. Eric ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:09:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.156.36.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 981749347 64.156.36.64 (Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:09:07 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:09:07 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75198 Eric Chomko writes: > > Maybe it was Monterey, which is next to Pacific Grove. Salinas is about 10 > miles from Monterey, inland from the Monterey peninsula. PG is where DRI > was located, I believe. > > The article I read was sketchy at best. > > Eric i thot it was on monterey side of the airport ... there is something of a hi-tech corridor of companies along a strip there. I had a number of visits to a company located there not too long ago and supposedly the claim was that the complex had previously been a/the DRI location. good part of pacific grove is monterey presidio and defense language institute and then houses ... and then asilomar (with 26 mile drive on the other side). You take the route around thru monterey along the bay, or go further south 101 and 68 over the hill ... or go thru middle of monterey over the hill, skirting the presidio. PG is also a reference to NPG school in downtown monterey. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:11:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.156.36.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 981749512 64.156.36.64 (Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:11:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:11:52 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75185 Eric Chomko writes: > Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it > REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? > > Eric I don't know ... we were on the beach near the front of asilomar and could see it start down ... didn't really know what was going on until we heard it later on the news while we were eating dinner at the red lion in carmel. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 10 Feb 2001 03:58:05 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 38 Message-ID: <962e8d$q6p@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75152 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: : Eric Chomko writes: : > : > Maybe it was Monterey, which is next to Pacific Grove. Salinas is about 10 : > miles from Monterey, inland from the Monterey peninsula. PG is where DRI : > was located, I believe. : > : > The article I read was sketchy at best. : > : > Eric : i thot it was on monterey side of the airport ... there is something : of a hi-tech corridor of companies along a strip there. I had a number : of visits to a company located there not too long ago and supposedly : the claim was that the complex had previously been a/the DRI location. : good part of pacific grove is monterey presidio and defense language : institute and then houses ... and then asilomar (with 26 mile drive on : the other side). You take the route around thru monterey along the : bay, or go further south 101 and 68 over the hill ... or go thru : middle of monterey over the hill, skirting the presidio. : PG is also a reference to NPG school in downtown monterey. I was born on Ft. Ord a number of years ago while my dad was at DLI. I have never heard of NPG called PG. The phone book uses PG for Pacific Grove. I have family in two locations off 68 half way between Salinas and Monterey. I believe your reference to "over the hill" is Lourles(sp) Grade Rd. or simply "the grade". Eric : -- : Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 10 Feb 2001 03:59:11 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <962eaf$q6p@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75174 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: : Eric Chomko writes: : > Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it : > REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? : > : > Eric : I don't know ... we were on the beach near the front of asilomar and : could see it start down ... didn't really know what was going on until : we heard it later on the news while we were eating dinner at the red : lion in carmel. Wow! you saw the actual crash?! I take you live in the Mont. Pen. area? Eric : -- : Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 10 Feb 2001 04:03:22 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <962eia$q6p@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75175 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: : Eric Chomko writes: : > Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it : > REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? : > : > Eric : I don't know ... we were on the beach near the front of asilomar and : could see it start down ... didn't really know what was going on until : we heard it later on the news while we were eating dinner at the red : lion in carmel. : -- : Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ The garlic reference! I should have known!! Gilroy maybe? Eric ###### Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6u4ryblm1a.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 11 Feb 2001 01:37:03 +0800 Message-ID: <87u262sam8.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 11 Feb 2001 01:02:09 +0800, 149.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75304 Eric Chomko writes: > Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it > REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? Being not fully familiar with a plane. Ran out of fuel in one tank due to misjudging the amount in a tapered tank. Then Getting out of control while changing the tank selector. It was located behind the shoulder, so he had to reach over his body and twist to reach it. And in so doing, pushed on the rudder pedal... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3a8863e1$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 12 Feb 2001 14:29:53 -0800 X-Trace: 12 Feb 2001 14:29:53 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lmu.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75359 >: Monterey >: definitely not Salinas. In article <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it >REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? Done. Went by the spot at the last Asilomar Conference. There's a little informal memorial with fresh flowers every day out there. I think he was declared to have run out of fuel and stalled. >And at the risk of sounding overly inquisitive, what rare computers are in >Monterey? Computers do seem to be scare in Monterey, but that seems to be >simply because they are short on suppliers there. Sure, it's not a big deal now. I got an Encore Multimax for our Museum, two ICL DAPs a 610 and a 610c (I will be writing Dennis P. about these). I also got a Y-MP/EL (our Museum has one of these and this could be a loaner to another musuem). I might also pick up some Gould/SEL image processing hardware. It's just an interagency transfer of equipment. Monterey might seem improbable, but it was also the home of one of the few CDC Cyberplus systems (I had a manual and I spoke with Bill Ragsdale over the phone about this machine). Richard Hamming was faculty member there, and a good friend, at the Naval Post Grad School. The NRL has a Western office there and there's a major supercomputer facility in the Fleet Numerical Oceanographic and Meteorologic Center. And there are a number of other classified and unclassified facilities down there. I had never thought of a weather report as classified data (but in some circumstances, they can be, it just depends where). ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95mpe6$73e@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3a7f16e7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3a886487$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 12 Feb 2001 14:32:39 -0800 X-Trace: 12 Feb 2001 14:32:39 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75445 >: Trimupth of the Nerds (Oregon PBS). In article <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >Maybe it was Monterey, which is next to Pacific Grove. Salinas is about 10 >miles from Monterey, inland from the Monterey peninsula. PG is where DRI >was located, I believe. PG, Monterey, Carmel, etc. are all fairly close. It's possible to walk between them and other suburbs like Sand City. Salinas is quite a ways inland. That's more Steinbeck country. ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:46:53 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <3A88920D.9F308D5B@jkmicro.com> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <3A7F8919.BF6E4D50@cmc.com> <3a7fc4a0$1@news.ucsc.edu> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <3a8863e1$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Feb 12 19:42:26 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !_B161k-W)l&"=IFV&,4AS`.C (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75382 Eugene Miya wrote: > > >: Monterey > >: definitely not Salinas. > > In article <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, > Eric Chomko wrote: > >Okay, how about Pacific Grove? Find out how John Denver died. Was it > >REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? > > Done. > Went by the spot at the last Asilomar Conference. There's a little > informal memorial with fresh flowers every day out there. I think he > was declared to have run out of fuel and stalled. John Denver's crash was not caused by either of these reasons. From what I've read, his plane had been modified so that the fuel tank selector valve was behind the pilot's seat. This was done for ostensibly for safety reasons to avoid routing fuel lines inside the passenger compartment. Anyway, as he turned in his seat to set the valve, he inadvertently put the plane into a dive. The plane struck the ocean before he was aware of the situation. ###### From: hudson@swcp.com (Tramm Hudson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 13 Feb 2001 16:22:08 GMT Organization: Southwest Cyberport Lines: 50 Message-ID: <96bmvg$7p8$1@sloth.swcp.com> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <3a8863e1$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: inago.swcp.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!feeder.nmix.net!feeder.swcp.com!sloth.swcp.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75385 [ attributions believed to be correct. Posted and cc'd to cited authors ] Jim Stewart wrote: > Eric Chomko wrote: > >... Find out how John Denver died. Was it > >REALLY engine trouble in his ultra-light? It wasn't an ultra-light. The Long-EZ is a amateur built aircraft that is certified in the experimental category. These aircraft are allowed to carry passengers and operate under FAR Part 91. And usually fuel starvation induced by pilot error doesn't count as engine trouble, even if the engine does stop producing thrust. Although, in this accident, the engine appears to have been working all the way down to the ocean. > John Denver's crash was not caused by either of these reasons. From > what I've read, his plane had been modified so that the fuel tank > selector valve was behind the pilot's seat. This was done for > ostensibly for safety reasons to avoid routing fuel lines inside the > passenger compartment. The full narrative is available from AV Web: http://www.avweb.com/other/ntsb9905.html or from the official source: http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X09045&key=1 > Anyway, as he turned in his seat to set the > valve, he inadvertently put the plane into a dive. The plane struck the > ocean before he was aware of the situation. In tests done with other Long-EZ's that used the same fuel lever design the pilots were found to inadvertendly apply pressure to the right rudder pedal. According to the NTSB: # The Board determined that the builder's decision to locate the unmarked # fuel selector handle in a hard-to-access position, unmarked fuel quantity # sight gauges, inadequate transition training by the pilot, and his lack # of total experience in this type of airplane were factors in the accident. Tramm -- o hudson@swcp.com hudson@turbolabs.com O___| /|\ http://www.swcp.com/~hudson/ H 505.323.38.81 /\ \_ << KC5RNF @ N5YYF.NM.AMPR.ORG W 505.986.60.75 \ \/\_\ 0 U \_ | ###### Message-ID: <3A896AA3.F1C2CE20@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <961c67$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <3a8863e1$1@news.ucsc.edu> <96bmvg$7p8$1@sloth.swcp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 982084248 128.135.145.16 (Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:10:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:10:48 CST Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:10:59 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75371 Tramm Hudson wrote: > > In tests done with other Long-EZ's that used the same fuel lever design > the pilots were found to inadvertendly apply pressure to the right rudder > pedal. According to the NTSB: > > # The Board determined that the builder's decision to locate the unmarked > # fuel selector handle in a hard-to-access position, unmarked fuel quantity > # sight gauges, inadequate transition training by the pilot, and his lack > # of total experience in this type of airplane were factors in the accident. You'd never think that bad user interface design really could be fatal. It strikes me that the designer never flew the thing himself. Or there was a large chain of people that were reluctant to point out that putting a fuel lever in that position was inherently stupid. Unforgivable. Simon -- Simon Allaway | "We had an edict of "thou shalt program in University of Chicago | The One True Language"... Anthropology | It's sorta like insisting that all lawn 5-4390 Haskell Hall | mowers be built with jet engines." /BAH ###### From: hudson@swcp.com (Tramm Hudson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 13 Feb 2001 18:22:56 GMT Organization: Southwest Cyberport Lines: 76 Message-ID: <96bu20$btf$1@sloth.swcp.com> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <96bmvg$7p8$1@sloth.swcp.com> <3A896AA3.F1C2CE20@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: inago.swcp.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!feeder.nmix.net!feeder.swcp.com!sloth.swcp.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75455 [ Posted and cc'd to cited author ] Simon Allaway wrote: >Tramm Hudson wrote: >> ... According to the NTSB: >> >> # The Board determined that the builder's decision to locate the unmarked >> # fuel selector handle in a hard-to-access position, unmarked fuel quantity >> # sight gauges, inadequate transition training by the pilot, and his lack >> # of total experience in this type of airplane were factors in the accident. > > You'd never think that bad user interface design really could be fatal. There has been much discussion of this. Tog blames the builder and points out the parallels between computer user interfaces and real world device interfaces: http://www.asktog.com/columns/027InterfacesThatKill.html The closing quote is priceless: "... our screw-ups generally don't kill people outright. Instead, we specialize in driving our users slowly insane." Having only sight gauges that need to be seen via a mirror from the front seat worries me as much as having the selector handle so far out of reach. My aircraft has four fuel tanks, with four gauges and requires some what complex management. Electric transfer pumps are manually engaged to transfer fuel between the tip tanks and the mains. These pumps must not be run dry, nor may the be allowed to overflow the main tanks. It is not possible to cross feed, so some of the complexity is reduced. But according to the NTSB this has not caused any incidents. All the controls and gauges are easily visible and operated, even without an autopilot. > It strikes me that the designer never flew the thing himself. In the case of "experimental" or amateur built aircraft it is important to distinguish between the designer (Burt Rutan), the builder (Adrian Davis), the seller (unknown) and the pilot (John Denver). Rutan designed the kit. Davis built it from the plans supplied by Rutan and made some modifications such as a larger enginer (Continental O-320 instead of an O-200), relocating the batteries to the front (to compensate for the extra engine weight), and the relocation of the fuel selector. So, yes, Rutan (the designer) flew the same model of aircraft extensively, but one that was built as he designed it. In the NTSB report: # According to the designer of the airplane and the drawings issued to # the builder, the fuel selector is to be located just aft of the nose # wheel position window between the pilot's legs. The accident airplane's # fuel selector handle was positioned by the builder on the bulkhead # behind the pilot's left shoulder. So Rutan's design allowed for easy access to the fuel selector. It is just that the builder did not follow the plans and relocated it: # The builder responded that he did not want fuel in the cockpit area. # The seller said that when he changed tanks inflight he would engage # the autopilot, allowing his right hand to reach behind his left # shoulder to the selector handle. The sad outcome of all this is lawsuits for everyone involved. The heirs are blaming just about everyone except the pilot. Tramm -- o hudson@swcp.com hudson@turbolabs.com O___| /|\ http://www.swcp.com/~hudson/ H 505.323.38.81 /\ \_ << KC5RNF @ N5YYF.NM.AMPR.ORG W 505.986.60.75 \ \/\_\ 0 U \_ | ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <962e8d$q6p@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3a898e49$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 13 Feb 2001 11:43:05 -0800 X-Trace: 13 Feb 2001 11:43:05 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 55 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75448 In article <962e8d$q6p@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >: > Monterey, Pacific Grove. Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >: i thought it was on monterey side of the airport ... there is something >: of a hi-tech corridor of companies along a strip there. I had a number >: of visits to a company located there not too long ago and supposedly >: the claim was that the complex had previously been a/the DRI location. I have learned not to ask too many questions about the firms in this area after an old boss took a job here. There are a number of classified and unclassified but sensitive firms and institutions here. Carmel and Monterey is the retirement home for a good number of ex-military who side line for a good number of think tanks. >: good part of pacific grove is monterey presidio and defense language >: institute and then houses ... and then asilomar (with 26 mile drive on >: the other side). ... >: PG is also a reference to NPG school in downtown monterey. > >I was born on Ft. Ord a number of years ago while my dad was at DLI. I >have never heard of NPG called PG. The phone book uses PG for Pacific >Grove. Oh! The School decided to go by NPS on domain names, but it was NPGS during the Bitnet days. Gary taught there for quite a while. I have a number of other friends who teach there in various departments. I think I kept an NPGS message from Raul Mendez at one time, but I can't find it fast. The NP school does have facilities for classified meeting sessions. I have yet to work with the DLI, but I work on another DLI and we have interests in the Monterey DLI (lingnet is a Java-hog web site). I suspect the DLI also has faclities for classified meetings. I was involved with the investigation of a high profile kidnapping on Ord which later evolved into a murder case. That case is on going. I was brought in to seek out aerial imagery. That led to some interesting phone conversations. One of those had the interesting line of "Ask the Russians." This is a very hush hush community. I was not involved in the Denver plane crash investigation. >simply "the grade". That anyone would like CP/M was the first OS is a real joke. I never saw IBM DOS, but I'm glad that I didn't. Most of the posters are thinking (not Lynn or Eric) microprocessors. I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned MP/M. The NPS was an early Unix site. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <3a886487$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3a89904e@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 13 Feb 2001 11:51:42 -0800 X-Trace: 13 Feb 2001 11:51:42 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75504 In article , Michael Black wrote: >It's all Steinbeck country. This is true. I would not mind living in Monterey or PG were it not so far from work. >"Cannery Row" and "Sweet Thursday" take place in Monterey. Ed Ricketts >("Doc" in those books is based on him) lived in Monterey. The Monterey >Bay Aquarium, was it funded by Hewlett or Packard with calculator >money?, I gather was built out of Cannery Row remains in Monterey. > >Steinbeck himself lived in Pacific Grove for a while. Doc Ricketts (Steinbeck's Logs from the Sea of Cortez [when when I was vacationing down there) quite a guy. Has a house named after him at Tech (I know many Scurves) Packard. Julie, his daughter, wanted to be an oceanographer. Not really calculator money, I think that's more the Oregon part of HP. Just generic David Packard money (I had a William Hewlett scholarship). It's not just MBA, it's also MBARI and Stanford's Hopkins Marine Station is next door with a small cove in between. We've run a small rover in the water and went over to the Aquarium for lunch (on them: very nice of them: every one should patronize the aquarium, more lunches please). >It's been years since I read his books, and even years since I read >his biographies, so I can't come up with other examples. But probably >there are others. > >People in Salinas apparently didn't take kindly to Steinbeck, because >he wrote about the migrant workers. I gather he was well liked >around Monterey and Pacific Grove. Yeah, they are somewhat bitter about Steinbeck in both locations, it's just the degree. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 14 Feb 01 11:10:55 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <530.445T2760T6705645@sky.bus.com> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <961b1k$s6s@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <3a886487$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3a89904e@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-641.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75543 In article <3a89904e@news.ucsc.edu> eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) writes: >Doc Ricketts (Steinbeck's Logs from the Sea of Cortez [when when I was >vacationing down there) quite a guy. Has a house named after him at >Tech (I know many Scurves) His book, "Between Pacific Tides", is wonderful. Anyone who's even remotely interested in marine biology should have a copy (preferably a recent reprint) in his or her personal library. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: 14 Feb 2001 16:01:33 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 66 Message-ID: <96ea4t$fhm@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <95c74q$g99@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <0h9c59.qjq1.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <95cnq1$t8b$1@ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM> <981071647.713010@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <95f6gq$c8o NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.103.111.5!news.voicenet.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75594 Eugene Miya wrote: : In article <962e8d$q6p@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, : Eric Chomko wrote: : >: > Monterey, Pacific Grove. [...] : I have learned not to ask too many questions about the firms in this area : after an old boss took a job here. There are a number of classified and : unclassified but sensitive firms and institutions here. Carmel and : Monterey is the retirement home for a good number of ex-military who : side line for a good number of think tanks. Yes, those damn spooks even meet for cronie luncheons from time to time. : >: good part of pacific grove is monterey presidio and defense language : >: institute and then houses ... and then asilomar (with 26 mile drive on : >: the other side). : ... : >: PG is also a reference to NPG school in downtown monterey. : > : >I was born on Ft. Ord a number of years ago while my dad was at DLI. I : >have never heard of NPG called PG. The phone book uses PG for Pacific : >Grove. : Oh! I saw the hospital once back in 1972 while on a cross country travel. It has since been torn down. : The School decided to go by NPS on domain names, but it was NPGS during : the Bitnet days. Gary taught there for quite a while. I have a number : of other friends who teach there in various departments. I think I kept : an NPGS message from Raul Mendez at one time, but I can't find it fast. Is John Locke still there? He sent me a Unix manual from NPGS a few years back. : The NP school does have facilities for classified meeting sessions. : I have yet to work with the DLI, but I work on another DLI and we have : interests in the Monterey DLI (lingnet is a Java-hog web site). : I suspect the DLI also has faclities for classified meetings. : I was involved with the investigation of a high profile kidnapping on : Ord which later evolved into a murder case. That case is on going. : I was brought in to seek out aerial imagery. That led to some : interesting phone conversations. One of those had the interesting line : of "Ask the Russians." This is a very hush hush community. Were these "Russians" from Russia or were they the ones studying the Russian language? Or were they Russians that taught at DLI and have no more ties to their mother country? It was believed that Lee Harvey Oswald learned Russian at DLI behind losed doors, but that has never been proven. : I was not involved in the Denver plane crash investigation. : >simply "the grade". : That anyone would like CP/M was the first OS is a real joke. : I never saw IBM DOS, but I'm glad that I didn't. Most of the posters : are thinking (not Lynn or Eric) microprocessors. : I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned MP/M. : The NPS was an early Unix site. Yes, John Locke has told me as much. He was (is?) a Unix SysAdmn of sorts at NPGS. Eric ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <3a9524e3.34830530@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <96bmvg$7p8$1@sloth.swcp.com> <3A896AA3.F1C2CE20@uchicago.edu> <96bu20$btf$1@sloth.swcp.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:46:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.31.23.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 982197983 62.31.23.63 (Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:46:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:46:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news-hub.cableinet.net!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75642 On 13 Feb 2001 18:22:56 GMT, hudson@swcp.com (Tramm Hudson) sprachen: >The sad outcome of all this is lawsuits for everyone involved. The >heirs are blaming just about everyone except the pilot. Well if along the line, nobody told John "blah blah blah and the right rudder pedal", then it isn't his fault. I can only assume it wasn't in the manual, and to me, modifying the design of a plane when you're not yourself a plane-designer, is irresponsible. It's either the builder's fault, or the seller's fault if he knew about it. Is there an essential difference between a trippy-up fuel selector, and those Ford cars that used to explode because the beancounters didn't want to shell out $10 per car? And the ones with the padded metal sheet as a dashboard, that could often slice ya head clean off if you hit it at the right angle in a crash. I read something in a comic, about WW2 German fighters, I think Messerschmitt's, that had an auxiliary fuel tank right under the pilot's seat. Is that true? One round of tracer fire, hits it, and BOOM! roast pilot. Still I shouldn't mock. My great-grandfather took a bullet in that war. For the Nazis! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:28:43 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <3A8C03BB.3E964415@jkmicro.com> References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <96bmvg$7p8$1@sloth.swcp.com> <3A896AA3.F1C2CE20@uchicago.edu> <96bu20$btf$1@sloth.swcp.com> <3a9524e3.34830530@news.cableinet.co.uk> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Feb 15 10:23:20 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !`DZ:1k-Y$o47\C&7g-9(LqML (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75553 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: > > On 13 Feb 2001 18:22:56 GMT, hudson@swcp.com (Tramm Hudson) sprachen: > > >The sad outcome of all this is lawsuits for everyone involved. The > >heirs are blaming just about everyone except the pilot. > > Well if along the line, nobody told John "blah blah blah and the right > rudder pedal", then it isn't his fault. I can only assume it wasn't in > the manual, and to me, modifying the design of a plane when you're not > yourself a plane-designer, is irresponsible. It's either the builder's > fault, or the seller's fault if he knew about it. Is there an > essential difference between a trippy-up fuel selector, and those Ford > cars that used to explode because the beancounters didn't want to > shell out $10 per car? And the ones with the padded metal sheet as a > dashboard, that could often slice ya head clean off if you hit it at > the right angle in a crash. > > I read something in a comic, about WW2 German fighters, I think > Messerschmitt's, that had an auxiliary fuel tank right under the > pilot's seat. Is that true? One round of tracer fire, hits it, and > BOOM! roast pilot. Still I shouldn't mock. My great-grandfather took a > bullet in that war. For the Nazis! WWII Willeys Jeeps had the gas tank under the drivers seat as well. ###### Message-ID: <3A8D0325.D91650A8@fcs.eu.com> From: B W Spoor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <20010128184525.22610.00002177@ng-cp1.aol.com> <96bmvg$7p8$1@sloth.swcp.com> <3A896AA3.F1C2CE20@uchicago.edu> <96bu20$btf$1@sloth.swcp.com> <3a9524e3.34830530@news.cableinet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Cache-Post-Path: ananke.eclipse.net.uk!unknown@212.104.146.11 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:28:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.104.129.36 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@kpnqwest.net X-Trace: nreader2.kpnqwest.net 982319294 212.104.129.36 (Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:28:14 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:28:14 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!134.222.94.5!npeer.kpnqwest.net!nreader2.kpnqwest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75511 Jim Stewart wrote: > > greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > > On 13 Feb 2001 18:22:56 GMT, hudson@swcp.com (Tramm Hudson) sprachen: > > > > >The sad outcome of all this is lawsuits for everyone involved. The > > >heirs are blaming just about everyone except the pilot. > > > > Well if along the line, nobody told John "blah blah blah and the right > > rudder pedal", then it isn't his fault. I can only assume it wasn't in > > the manual, and to me, modifying the design of a plane when you're not > > yourself a plane-designer, is irresponsible. It's either the builder's > > fault, or the seller's fault if he knew about it. Is there an > > essential difference between a trippy-up fuel selector, and those Ford > > cars that used to explode because the beancounters didn't want to > > shell out $10 per car? And the ones with the padded metal sheet as a > > dashboard, that could often slice ya head clean off if you hit it at > > the right angle in a crash. > > > > I read something in a comic, about WW2 German fighters, I think > > Messerschmitt's, that had an auxiliary fuel tank right under the > > pilot's seat. Is that true? One round of tracer fire, hits it, and > > BOOM! roast pilot. Still I shouldn't mock. My great-grandfather took a > > bullet in that war. For the Nazis! > > WWII Willeys Jeeps had the gas tank under the drivers seat as well. I remember in the late '60s/early 70's that the Series 2 Land Rovers used on an airfield (where I was learning to fly a Glider) had 2 fuel tanks, one under the drivers seat and the other under the front passenger seat - you lifted the seat cushion to get at ther filler cap. ----------------------------------------------------------- Brian W Spoor MBCS Chartered Information Systems Practitioner Friday Computer Services Phone: +44-(0)1803 852625 bwspoor@fcs.eu.com Fax: +44-(0)1803 854926 ----------------------------------------------------------- ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: bbreynolds@aol.comskipthis (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 17 Feb 2001 04:58:38 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Kildall "flying" (was Re: First OS?) Message-ID: <20010216235838.05439.00000769@nso-dd.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75754 In article , Jim Stewart writes: >WWII Willeys Jeeps had the gas tank under the drivers seat as well. > As did the Ford (M151???) "Jeeps" used in the 1960's stateside and in Vietnam. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Independent/Legacy Systems Consultant: Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA---Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs