Message-ID: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> From: Gene Buckle Subject: YKYBHTLW Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Summary: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.3 (sun4m)) NNTP-Posting-Host: utah.nwlink.com Date: 23 Jan 2001 08:12:56 -0800 X-Trace: 23 Jan 2001 08:12:56 -0800, utah.nwlink.com Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!195.25.12.36.MISMATCH!oleane.net!oleane!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!news.nwlink.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:73920 I'm sitting in the living room, reading a book while the TV is on. I hear a commercial and parse out bits of it... "..diamonds..." and "...EGA certified..." Brainlock. Why would _anyone_ want to certify a diamond with a video standard no one uses anymore? *sigh* g. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 24 Jan 01 11:38:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <94mj3a$ebe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZNaQgxvaAuvCUuDyDH3updMTOmtwEQ6GdFFfXHYLQZSTHI5uPbfz9L X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2001 12:50:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-101 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74082 In article <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >Gene Buckle wrote: >: I'm sitting in the living room, reading a book while the TV is on. >: I hear a commercial and parse out bits of it... "..diamonds..." >: and "...EGA certified..." Brainlock. Why would _anyone_ want to certify >: a diamond with a video standard no one uses anymore? *sigh* > >Yer-right, by now you'd think those damn diamond certifcation people would >be using VGA at least! Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in earning their dictatorship badge. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 23 Jan 2001 19:54:41 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u1.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u1.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74085 Gene Buckle wrote: : I'm sitting in the living room, reading a book while the TV is on. : I hear a commercial and parse out bits of it... "..diamonds..." : and "...EGA certified..." Brainlock. Why would _anyone_ want to certify : a diamond with a video standard no one uses anymore? *sigh* Yer-right, by now you'd think those damn diamond certifcation people would be using VGA at least! Eric : g. ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:14:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Bozo Central in Atlanta Lines: 15 Message-ID: <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <94mj3a$ebe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jolomo@olagrande.net NNTP-Posting-Host: og1.olagrande.net X-Trace: og1.olagrande.net 980352886 1195 63.98.209.2 (24 Jan 2001 16:14:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@olagrande.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:14:46 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!osa.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!news.olagrande.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74083 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make > sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that > talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area > to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated > software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in > earning their dictatorship badge. We have ads now from AT&T Broadband where they blame the lousy signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the incredibly high prices too. -- Joe Morris, SysAdmin and Not Insane Atlanta stories: http://www.olagrande.net/users/jolomo/atlanta.html ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 25 Jan 01 11:57:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <94mj3a$ebe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbfGAKeHzRuccUAvWl8cDA4Gy3flACglGlTW/HPL/CrWBep8Av4+W72 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2001 13:10:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-140 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74142 In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, Joe Morris wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make >> sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated >> software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in >> earning their dictatorship badge. > >We have ads now from AT&T Broadband where they blame the lousy >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the >incredibly high prices too. > Wow! That's some improvement in technology. In my day, stealing the cable usually terminated transmission rather than just get noisy. In my latest foray with AOL techs, they tried to tell me that AOL's modems could tell what hard/software I was using before they answered the phone. Where can I get one of those psychic modems? I'd like to be able to have my modem tell me when I shouldn't even bother to try to login and to just go back to bed. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 26 Jan 01 12:52:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <94s077$jmb$10@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <94mj3a$ebe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVba3vgR99wAaODxzVVDZp+QylM1RcJLaWBOmht/489C+SV7NmAaMxeW X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2001 14:05:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-72 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74206 In article <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com>, goughtr@email.com wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, >> Joe Morris wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make >> >> sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that >> >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area >> >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated >> >> software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in >> >> earning their dictatorship badge. >> > >> >We have ads now from AT&T Broadband where they blame the lousy >> >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the >> >incredibly high prices too. >> > >> Wow! That's some improvement in technology. In my day, >> stealing the cable usually terminated transmission rather >> than just get noisy. >> >> In my latest foray with AOL techs, they tried to tell me that >> AOL's modems could tell what hard/software I was using before >> they answered the phone. Where can I get one of those psychic >> modems? I'd like to be able to have my modem tell me when >> I shouldn't even bother to try to login and to just go back >> to bed. >Can they authenticate and log you on before they answer as well? Oh, there were so many things I could have asked :-). I learned very early on that adding humor seemed to confuse things since the techs would latch on a phrase and get into a subroutine that no POPJ. One of these days, I'll get curious enough and try to find the flowchart that they have to use when doing hotline calls. Right now I'm just playing a game with myself trying to figure out the flowchart while I work with them to try to get the problem fixed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: goughtr@email.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:36:46 +0000 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <94mj3a$ebe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-109.amlodipine.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 980454930 28406 62.136.78.109 (25 Jan 2001 20:35:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2001 20:35:30 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, es Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74265 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, > Joe Morris wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make > >> sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that > >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area > >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated > >> software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in > >> earning their dictatorship badge. > > > >We have ads now from AT&T Broadband where they blame the lousy > >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the > >incredibly high prices too. > > > Wow! That's some improvement in technology. In my day, > stealing the cable usually terminated transmission rather > than just get noisy. > > In my latest foray with AOL techs, they tried to tell me that > AOL's modems could tell what hard/software I was using before > they answered the phone. Where can I get one of those psychic > modems? I'd like to be able to have my modem tell me when > I shouldn't even bother to try to login and to just go back > to bed. > > /BAH > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Can they authenticate and log you on before they answer as well? -- http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club ###### From: ddotpowell@netnospamscapeonline.co.uk (David Powell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:44:39 GMT Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: <3a70902c.1788149@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 17 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.1.166 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.1.166 X-Trace: 25 Jan 2001 19:47:13 GMT, 10.20.1.166 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!gatel-ffm!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.tele.dk!194.176.220.130!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!10.20.1.166 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74264 On 23 Jan 2001 08:12:56 -0800, Gene Buckle wrote: >I'm sitting in the living room, reading a book while the TV is on. >I hear a commercial and parse out bits of it... "..diamonds..." >and "...EGA certified..." Brainlock. Why would _anyone_ want to certify > a diamond with a video standard no one uses anymore? *sigh* > Should you ever need a TECO certfied structual elliotti plywood, it's available from Guararapes Plywood Mill, in Brasil. Regards, David P. ###### From: linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 25 Jan 2001 15:48:04 -0800 Organization: Megami no Belldandy-sama no deshi Message-ID: <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74184 In ye olden post goughtr@email.com spake... >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, >> Joe Morris wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make >> >> sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that >> >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area >> >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated >> >> software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in >> >> earning their dictatorship badge. Who exactly grants BSA authority to enter a private business' premesis? I was unaware that the BSA had police power. I'm having visions of armed SS shocktroopers here... >> >We have ads now from AT&T Broadband where they blame the lousy >> >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the >> >incredibly high prices too. Yeah, we have ads here that say you're going to HELL for unauthorized CATV reception[*]. An "angel" is carrying the dead guy up toward heaven and he says, "Thank heaven they forgive the little things, like that illegal cable box" "Like this one the angel says" "Yeah", the guy goes as he grabs the box. He then plummets down, presumably into hell. Murder, rape, child molestation, illegal CATV viewing. Yeah, those all equate. [*] I refuse to call it theft because nothing is missing. Nor is it piracy. That be armed robbery at sea, matey. I'm not saying it's OK, just combatting the alarmist hype. I rather equate it with kids sneaking into a movie theater. Big whoop. If empty seats are not called a loss, why is it a loss when someone who wouldn't pay anyway fills that empty seat. And "piracy" never appears in anyone's, ANYONE'S annual financial report, where the SEC REQUIRES public companies to disclose all profits, R&D costs, expenses, LOSSES, etc. Guess "piracy" really isn't a loss, except in BSA ads where "billions of dollars" are claimed to be lost. Tell it to the IRS or shut up. -- Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Ocha tte nigai demo... hito no chi linley at megami dot org | | |NV | UT | wa atatakakute tottemo amai no" Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ | "Tea is always bitter... but blood Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ---------> \*| AZ | is warm and sweet" - Miyu ###### Message-ID: <3A71EE0A.D822259A@ev1.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:37:15 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94kni1$dn8@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <94mj3a$ebe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-46.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 980538081 taydal-207-55-153-46.ev1.net (26 Jan 2001 13:41:21 -0600) Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74255 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip..] [snip...] [snip...] > > Even if you pay close attention to commercials, they don't make > sense anymore. Lately, there's been a radio commercial that > talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area > to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated > software. Those Boy Scouts are getting terribly ambitious in > earning their dictatorship badge. > Heh, heh, heh...I wonder if the dictatorship merit badge has a picture of Mr. Bill on it??? Has a copy of World Domination 2001 been released yet??? I am pretty sure that the BSA is just the Micro$uck encarnation of the SS and Gestapo put together... As for TV commercials: "In a perfect world, everything would be different." What the *hell* has that got to do with Dodge cars and trucks??? Where I used to work, we said the moto should be the old beer commercial slogan: "It doesn't get any better than this." If you see what you had to work with, and think of this slogan, you would start up-dating your resume... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 26 Jan 2001 22:53:41 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 70 Message-ID: <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 980546021 800 10.0.3.2 (26 Jan 2001 21:53:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2001 21:53:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74267 linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) writes: > In ye olden post goughtr@email.com spake... > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, > >> Joe Morris wrote: > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area > >> >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated > > Who exactly grants BSA authority to enter a private business' > premesis? I was unaware that the BSA had police power. I'm > having visions of armed SS shocktroopers here... The terms of the contract you enter when opening the software shrinkwrap. Not to mention quite a few other software contracts. Read the fine print. No, I do not use any shrinkwrapped software... > >> >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the > > unauthorized CATV reception[*]. An "angel" is carrying the dead > > Murder, rape, child molestation, illegal CATV viewing. Yeah, > those all equate. Sure. All destroy society, says the IP (intellectual property) guys :-) > [*] I refuse to call it theft because nothing is missing. Nor is > it piracy. That be armed robbery at sea, matey. Exactly! Theft is _taking_away_of_an_object_. > it's OK, just combatting the alarmist hype. I rather equate it > with kids sneaking into a movie theater. Big whoop. I compare making not payed for copies (or viewings) with travelling on public trasport without an ticket - not paying ones share of the costs, i.e. cheating the paying population. > seats are not called a loss, why is it a loss when someone who > wouldn't pay anyway fills that empty seat. The problem is that people who would pay say "he isn't" and also don't, more non payers, more see it, ..., gives an vicious circle until collapse. But still nowhere enough to compare it with murder. > costs, expenses, LOSSES, etc. Guess "piracy" really isn't a > loss, except in BSA ads where "billions of dollars" are claimed > to be lost. Tell it to the IRS or shut up. A "statistical" calculation that has been critisized for (allways same) statistics flaws [1] since first publication. [1] a) Using "copies that have been made", not "copies that would be sold". b) Using sales price, not profit (after deduction of replication, distribution and support costs) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 25 Jan 01 13:39:04 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1115.425T206T8193383@sky.bus.com> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <3a70902c.1788149@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-793.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74317 In article <3a70902c.1788149@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> ddotpowell@netnospamscapeonline.co.uk (David Powell) writes: >On 23 Jan 2001 08:12:56 -0800, Gene Buckle >wrote: > >>I'm sitting in the living room, reading a book while the TV is on. >>I hear a commercial and parse out bits of it... "..diamonds..." >>and "...EGA certified..." Brainlock. Why would _anyone_ want to >>certify a diamond with a video standard no one uses anymore? *sigh* > >Should you ever need a TECO certfied structual elliotti plywood, it's >available from Guararapes Plywood Mill, in Brasil. Back before the Eaton's department store chain folded, TECO was one of their house brands. Presumably it stood for "T. Eaton Company", which I believe was the company's full name. (One of their boutique-style clothing departments was called "Timothy E's".) I don't suppose grep ever made it as a trade name. But I do remember toy commercials that ended with an animated bird that said, "It's Kenner! It's fun! Awk!" -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 27 Jan 01 15:18:37 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <944.427T1898T9185415@sky.bus.com> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-740.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74345 In article <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> neil@franklin.ch.remove (Neil Franklin) writes: >linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) writes: >> costs, expenses, LOSSES, etc. Guess "piracy" really isn't a >> loss, except in BSA ads where "billions of dollars" are claimed >> to be lost. Tell it to the IRS or shut up. > >A "statistical" calculation that has been critisized for (allways >same) statistics flaws [1] since first publication. > >[1] a) Using "copies that have been made", not "copies that would be > sold". Indeed. They're two very different numbers. > b) Using sales price, not profit (after deduction of replication, > distribution and support costs) I hadn't thought of that one. Good point. While I don't condone piracy, these points do bring many instances down out of the "child molestor" category... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 28 Jan 01 11:12:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVayWu9DVrBkE6OJJKllLBC3J7UpgOjbBFRQNdLIxpOpO5AaufGPpWQi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2001 12:25:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-14 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74364 In article <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> I thought I had read the fine print; I must have missed this >> fine clause. Is this BSA something like a tax auditor? If >> so, who funds them? Do they need search warrants? I'd never >> heard of this organization before the commercials started >> happening. It sure seems that looking for unlicensed software >> on all systems would be similar to looking for a needle >> in a haystack made of needles. >> >The BSA has *no* legitimate power to come into your home or scan >your computer. You either didn't read my OP or I didn't include the detail that the commercial is addressed to businesses. > If they have evidence that you are doing wrong, they >must get the police involved and get court orders and such. I believe >if the truth is revealed (and the truth will *not* be revealed) that >Billy Boy is the main (if *not* only one) funding the BSA. It would >*not* surprise me if the BSA is a subsidary of Micro$uck... > This is a speculation, right? I can understand a group of software producers creating a consortium. I'm just trying to figure out how anybody can figure out that a piece of software has been bought, let alone not bought, especially in the environment where nobody thinks twice about dribbling their snotty bits on the disk of anyone who accesses web pages (or has the balls to attach that HTML garbage at the end of a newsgroup post). And, even if stuff wasn't ever downloaded, who keeps those pieces of paper that absolves the producer of all responsiblity? In addition, I called Misoft once for permission to install the 6.2 release of DOS on all of my computers rather than buying 3 copies (which were non-existent...there was only 1 box in the store). I got a verbal permission, but nothing in writing. How would I "prove" that? I haven't given this stuff much thought, as you can obviously tell :-). To wrench this back into some form of folklore. Software producers should make buying/installing products easy; that was something that DEC started to not do. Even the buying of licenses became a nightmare (and that didn't include getting the software). I have no idea how I would license a piece of Java applet that I wrote. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 29 Jan 01 11:12:37 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1244.429T1859T6725552@sky.bus.com> References: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-714.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74371 In article <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >I have heard the rumor that many of the programs that work on the net >(such as Internet Exploder and such) will send a summary of the M$ >software on your machine *without* asking you... This may give M$ >some marketing opportunities (read SPAM opportunities) and also M$ >*may* be able to determine if you have "illegal" copies on your >box. In the case of Microsoft's Registration Wizard, it's not a rumour. Andrew Schulman ran a packet sniffer, and found encrypted strings within the software. Users who registered their software online were having their hard disks scanned for a long list of software packages, most of which were not from Microsoft. I don't know whether these references are still valid, but here they are just in case: http://www.ora.com/gnn/bus/ora/win/regwiz.html ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/examples/windows/win95.update/regwiz.html There was quite a hue and cry at the time. At one point, outfits such as Motorola and the Australian Navy were prohibiting the installation of Windows 95, considering them to be too much of a security risk. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 27 Jan 01 12:48:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbyZS3VWVk4V0/TXovvsyjDju3H+PW2KnBEeqcnrJWAqcveTE1+6BrW X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2001 14:01:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-80 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74393 In article <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) writes: > >> In ye olden post goughtr@email.com spake... >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, >> >> Joe Morris wrote: >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area >> >> >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated >> >> Who exactly grants BSA authority to enter a private business' >> premesis? I was unaware that the BSA had police power. I'm >> having visions of armed SS shocktroopers here... > >The terms of the contract you enter when opening the software shrinkwrap. >Not to mention quite a few other software contracts. Read the fine print. > >No, I do not use any shrinkwrapped software... I thought I had read the fine print; I must have missed this fine clause. Is this BSA something like a tax auditor? If so, who funds them? Do they need search warrants? I'd never heard of this organization before the commercials started happening. It sure seems that looking for unlicensed software on all systems would be similar to looking for a needle in a haystack made of needles. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 12:05:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9593c4$jfm$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> <1244.429T1859T6725552@sky.bus.com> <3A767A40.3FD673A3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3A77721F.8291AE41@ev1.net> <958fnm$5p2$1@uranium.btinternet.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbeDlvj7r7dbyG7bCVHNEmnKd1aBqAOOyQYUvMUF7rvjUQhy4ctFo8/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2001 13:19:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-76 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74428 In article <958fnm$5p2$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) wrote: >In article <3A77721F.8291AE41@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net wrote: > >>If you do that, they will turn you in to the FBI...that is what they >>are doing to the hackers that crashed their servers recently... >> > >Heh. I read that as 'Turn you *into* the FBI...' > That used to happen. They'ld become testers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 13:40:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaV+V5xgR8DQGIKf0lY9gnoGwc09xjdmbdiwI9ekDS/aNZ4FI1K45W0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 2001 14:54:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-50 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74458 In article <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> 30% of all the income tax returns are submitted on April 15th >> via some flavor of the net. The registry is down because >> [fill in any reason] and all submissions are rejected. April >> 16th at 00:01, the IRS attaches the bank accounts of all who >> are late setting the freeze account bit. The late submissions >> get resubmitted on April 16th 09:00 [somebody booted the >> registry computer]. All payment transfers are rejected because >> the accounts have been frozen. > >Quite. It'll happen one day. > >Unless of course someone bothered to code the system properly in the >first place. Bad assumptions here. It'll happen one day because: 1. Not one person had the job to deal with the system as a whole. 2. Many systems are involved not all "owned" by the same people, corporation, or governments. 3. Properly means that the transactions had been spec'ed out before any system was brought up. Hard/software evolution sometimes has a life of its own. ;-) > >Error message ought to be: > >Bzzzt. Sorry, your submission failed because we didn't bother to >anticipate any realtime scenarios whatsoever. But we'll try and imply >that it's your fault. Afterall we've made you untrained, unpaid yet >liable tax collectors - just so we don't have to do it. So, seeing as we >built a system to make our lives easier, and it broke, we will punish >you for our mistakes. Thankyou. Ah, but you missed the point that something broke that they didn't make or have control over. The fact that the IRS systems continued to work in spite of a breakdown of the communications net before the transactions got to the system is a flaw that can't really be dealt with nicely. I'm finding it impossible to "prove" a break in a comm path from the receiver end because I don't know that something got sent, let alone when it got sent. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 12:14:32 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbH6plZdODTzeYkmxGs5w4igD1FrsE2Uhi6QBXFjo/DuBqP4i+B+NJ4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2001 13:28:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-76 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74471 In article <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> I have no idea how I would license a piece of Java applet that >> I wrote. > >I once bought an applet (before I learned to write java) and they >licensed it with a little .class file that contained a list of hosts >that you were allowed to serve the applet from. Once I realised you >could decompile the class file it was easy to..er..modify it. You had to >call them and ask for(and pay for) more hosts to be added, then they'd >send you the .class file. > >I'm not aware of any other methods, but I haven't looked either. If it >was up to me I'd do t over the network . Afterall java is good at that >kind of stuff. Yup. That's what I'm worried about. I don't even have to put on my den mother test hat to think of scenarios that can grind large bits of the economy down to iron dust. Fer instance: 30% of all the income tax returns are submitted on April 15th via some flavor of the net. The registry is down because [fill in any reason] and all submissions are rejected. April 16th at 00:01, the IRS attaches the bank accounts of all who are late setting the freeze account bit. The late submissions get resubmitted on April 16th 09:00 [somebody booted the registry computer]. All payment transfers are rejected because the accounts have been frozen. I could go on. And somebody cleverer than I could make this a hilarious with the appropriate error messages. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:47:40 -0600 Organization: Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour, TychoTown Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <3a70902c.1788149@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> <1115.425T206T8193383@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: djim55@cheesydatasync.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-027.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74824 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: []remember toy commercials that ended with an animated bird that []said, "It's Kenner! It's fun! Awk!" Thanks Charlie. I thought I had sucessfully buried that particular memory... :-) JimP. -- djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard. Updated: January 17, 2001 http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/updated.html Registered Linux user#185746 ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 04:09:00 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3A7249DC.1A53E22B@bell-labs.com> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <3a70902c.1788149@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> <1115.425T206T8193383@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: trux.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74347 Charlie Gibbs wrote: ... > I don't suppose grep ever made it as a trade name... You might be surprised. USPTO trademark search reveals (somewhat snipped)-- Word Mark GREP Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Rubber outer soles. FIRST USE: 19980914. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19980914 Registration Date December 5, 2000 Owner (REGISTRANT) GREP Geoffrey Nate Williams, USA Wendy Smith, USA PARTNERSHIP CALIFORNIA 3727 Peacock Court, Suite 8 Santa Clara CALIFORNIA 95051 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Gibbs continues: > ... But I do > remember toy commercials that ended with an animated bird that > said, "It's Kenner! It's fun! Awk!" And, as a matter of fact, Awk is likewise trademarked. Anther search result: Word Mark AWK Goods and Services IC 003. US 051 052. G & S: cosmetics; namely, moisturizer cream, bath oil, sun screen, eye cream, hand cream, hair shampoo, facial cleanser and body and skin lotion. FIRST USE: 19910803. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910803 Indeed, this one seems to have been renewed, but now with a logo with a dieresis over the A. Dennis ###### Message-ID: <3A72811C.1749DE22@mail.bcpl.net> From: Ken McMonigal X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 03:04:44 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.242.127.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 980582516 208.242.127.82 (Sat, 27 Jan 2001 03:01:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 03:01:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74334 Neil Franklin wrote: > linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) writes: > > > In ye olden post goughtr@email.com spake... > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> > > >> In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, > > >> Joe Morris wrote: > > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area > > >> >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated > > > > Who exactly grants BSA authority to enter a private business' > > premesis? I was unaware that the BSA had police power. I'm > > having visions of armed SS shocktroopers here... > > The terms of the contract you enter when opening the software shrinkwrap. > Not to mention quite a few other software contracts. Read the fine print. > > No, I do not use any shrinkwrapped software... > > > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Let's put Bill Gates in the same spot - no list of ingredients on the boxes of food that he buys, etc. They're putting something over us all with that state-by-state software legislation that is taking away consumers' rights on software purchases. ###### From: pjb@imaginet.fr (Pascal J. Bourguignon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 27 Jan 2001 21:31:08 +0100 Lines: 51 Sender: pascal@triton.local.net Message-ID: <87snm4ka9f.fsf@triton.local.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193-153-157-240.uc.nombres.ttd.es (193.153.157.240) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 980627473 16238863 193.153.157.240 (16 [41911]) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!193-153-157-240.uc.nombres.ttd.ES!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74610 Neil Franklin writes: > linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) writes: > > > >> >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the > > > > unauthorized CATV reception[*]. An "angel" is carrying the dead > > > > Murder, rape, child molestation, illegal CATV viewing. Yeah, > > those all equate. > > Sure. All destroy society, says the IP (intellectual property) guys :-) > > > > [*] I refuse to call it theft because nothing is missing. Nor is > > it piracy. That be armed robbery at sea, matey. > > Exactly! Theft is _taking_away_of_an_object_. Well, I hate to say it (it may give bad ideas to the wrong guys), but if you try to correct the wrong idea that software copying, CATV viewing, etc, is not theft, we may realize that it's more related to spying than anything else. And unfortunately, the charges for spying are usually much heavier than that for robbing. > > it's OK, just combatting the alarmist hype. I rather equate it > > with kids sneaking into a movie theater. Big whoop. > > I compare making not payed for copies (or viewings) with travelling > on public trasport without an ticket - not paying ones share of the > costs, i.e. cheating the paying population. Actually, when you use public transport without a ticket, you impose an additionnal charge (kg -> J -> $), function of your mass to the company. In that case, you're objectively stealing some gaz, even in an empty bus. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ PGP Key ID: 0xEF5E9966 (o_ mailto:pjb@imaginet.fr PGP fingerprint: 00 F5 7B DB CA 51 8A AD 04 5B //\ http://informatimago.free.fr/index 6C DE 32 60 16 8E EF 5E 99 66 V_/ () Join the ASCII ribbon campaign against html email and Microsoft attachments. /\ Software patents are endangering the computer industry all around the world. Join the LPF: http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/ http://petition.eurolinux.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:12:42 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-165.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 980637413 taydal-207-55-144-165.ev1.net (27 Jan 2001 17:16:53 -0600) Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!207.218.245.171.MISMATCH!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74773 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > I thought I had read the fine print; I must have missed this > fine clause. Is this BSA something like a tax auditor? If > so, who funds them? Do they need search warrants? I'd never > heard of this organization before the commercials started > happening. It sure seems that looking for unlicensed software > on all systems would be similar to looking for a needle > in a haystack made of needles. > The BSA has *no* legitimate power to come into your home or scan your computer. If they have evidence that you are doing wrong, they must get the police involved and get court orders and such. I believe if the truth is revealed (and the truth will *not* be revealed) that Billy Boy is the main (if *not* only one) funding the BSA. It would *not* surprise me if the BSA is a subsidary of Micro$uck... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:14:07 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 75 Message-ID: References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-141-20.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 980644448 15926 207.148.141.20 (28 Jan 2001 01:14:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:14:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74795 On 26 Jan 2001 22:53:41 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: >linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) writes: > >> In ye olden post goughtr@email.com spake... >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> In article <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net>, >> >> Joe Morris wrote: >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> talks about the BSA examining all business systems in the area >> >> >> to determined who's going to get fined for running pirated >> >> Who exactly grants BSA authority to enter a private business' >> premesis? I was unaware that the BSA had police power. I'm >> having visions of armed SS shocktroopers here... > >The terms of the contract you enter when opening the software shrinkwrap. >Not to mention quite a few other software contracts. Read the fine print. > >No, I do not use any shrinkwrapped software... > > >> >> >signal on "cable theives". Yeeeaaahhhh, and that explains the >> >> unauthorized CATV reception[*]. An "angel" is carrying the dead >> >> Murder, rape, child molestation, illegal CATV viewing. Yeah, >> those all equate. > >Sure. All destroy society, says the IP (intellectual property) guys :-) > > >> [*] I refuse to call it theft because nothing is missing. Nor is >> it piracy. That be armed robbery at sea, matey. > >Exactly! Theft is _taking_away_of_an_object_. > > >> it's OK, just combatting the alarmist hype. I rather equate it >> with kids sneaking into a movie theater. Big whoop. > >I compare making not payed for copies (or viewings) with travelling >on public trasport without an ticket - not paying ones share of the >costs, i.e. cheating the paying population. > > >> seats are not called a loss, why is it a loss when someone who >> wouldn't pay anyway fills that empty seat. > >The problem is that people who would pay say "he isn't" and also >don't, more non payers, more see it, ..., gives an vicious circle >until collapse. > >But still nowhere enough to compare it with murder. > > >> costs, expenses, LOSSES, etc. Guess "piracy" really isn't a >> loss, except in BSA ads where "billions of dollars" are claimed >> to be lost. Tell it to the IRS or shut up. > >A "statistical" calculation that has been critisized for (allways >same) statistics flaws [1] since first publication. > >[1] a) Using "copies that have been made", not "copies that would be sold". > b) Using sales price, not profit (after deduction of replication, $x00 $x00 $1 > distribution and support costs) $5 $1 to a first approximation, nowadays Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:03:24 +0100 Organization: EuroNet Internet Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <87snm4ka9f.fsf@triton.local.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p021.vcu.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: buty.wanadoo.nl 980670798 77278 194.134.200.21 (28 Jan 2001 08:33:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: The appropriate party according to NNTP-Posting-Host: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:33:18 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.109.6.150!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news2.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74562 Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote: > Neil Franklin writes: > Well, I hate to say it (it may give bad ideas to the wrong guys), but > if you try to correct the wrong idea that software copying, CATV > viewing, etc, is not theft, we may realize that it's more related to > spying than anything else. And unfortunately, the charges for spying > are usually much heavier than that for robbing. Surely industrial espionage, unless it is government data. Spying carries heavy penalties because it is targeted at the state (ie: the body that determines the penalties). Industrial espionage is much less serious, in fact I'm none too sure that it is in itself illegal (it will usually involve doing something illegal though). ###### Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 28 Jan 2001 19:51:22 +0800 Message-ID: <87d7d7rj2d.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 080.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 28 Jan 2001 20:18:36 +0800, 080.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!feeder.via.net!feed-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74601 Neil Franklin writes: > The terms of the contract you enter when opening the software shrinkwrap. > Not to mention quite a few other software contracts. Read the fine print. > > No, I do not use any shrinkwrapped software... Or get your kids to buy and open it. No 'contract'. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Message-ID: <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.3 X-Trace: uchinews 980703685 128.135.145.3 (Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:41:25 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:41:25 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:42:04 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74361 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > I have no idea how I would license a piece of Java applet that > I wrote. I once bought an applet (before I learned to write java) and they licensed it with a little .class file that contained a list of hosts that you were allowed to serve the applet from. Once I realised you could decompile the class file it was easy to..er..modify it. You had to call them and ask for(and pay for) more hosts to be added, then they'd send you the .class file. I'm not aware of any other methods, but I haven't looked either. If it was up to me I'd do t over the network . Afterall java is good at that kind of stuff. Simon ###### Message-ID: <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:59:05 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-138.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 980748174 taydal-207-55-153-138.ev1.net (29 Jan 2001 00:02:54 -0600) Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74763 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > > [snip....] [sinp...] [snip...] > > You either didn't read my OP or I didn't include the detail > that the commercial is addressed to businesses. > > > If they have evidence that you are doing wrong, they > >must get the police involved and get court orders and such. I believe > >if the truth is revealed (and the truth will *not* be revealed) that > >Billy Boy is the main (if *not* only one) funding the BSA. It would > >*not* surprise me if the BSA is a subsidary of Micro$uck... > > > This is a speculation, right? I can understand a group of > software producers creating a consortium. I'm just trying > to figure out how anybody can figure out that a piece of > software has been bought, let alone not bought, especially > in the environment where nobody thinks twice about dribbling > their snotty bits on the disk of anyone who accesses web > pages (or has the balls to attach that HTML garbage at the > end of a newsgroup post). > Okay, a lot of what I posted is speculation, but it is consistent with *many* things I have read about Micro$oft. And who but M$ would profit greatly from an organization like BSA??? IMHO the whole idea smacks of Billy Boy... I have heard the rumor that many of the programs that work on the net (such as Internet Exploder and such) will send a summary of the M$ software on your machine *without* asking you... This may give M$ some marketing opportunities (read SPAM opportunities) and also M$ *may* be able to determine if you have "illegal" copies on your box. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3A7593EB.5715B5CE@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 980783967 128.135.145.16 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:59:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:59:27 CST Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:01:47 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74318 Charles Richmond wrote: > > I have heard the rumor that many of the programs that work on the net > (such as Internet Exploder and such) will send a summary of the M$ > software on your machine *without* asking you... This may give M$ > some marketing opportunities (read SPAM opportunities) and also M$ > *may* be able to determine if you have "illegal" copies on your > box. I remember the outcry when it was revealed that the Windows 95 installer did that. I think it was part of the registration. No-one I knew ever registered software anyway, so it wasn't exactly important. Scanning your drive and sending it's listed contents to Microsoft is supremely arrogant though. Simon -- Simon Allaway | "We had an edict of "thou shalt program in University of Chicago | The One True Language"... Anthropology | It's sorta like insisting that all lawn 5-4390 Haskell Hall | mowers be built with jet engines." /BAH ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:24:32 +0000 Message-ID: <3A767A40.3FD673A3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> <1244.429T1859T6725552@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 980843164 nnrp-08:19202 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74623 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In the case of Microsoft's Registration Wizard, it's not a rumour. > Andrew Schulman ran a packet sniffer, and found encrypted strings > within the software. Users who registered their software online The urge to write something that would feed random registrations into the system at high speed is very strong. Perhaps I was born evil. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### Message-ID: <3A77721F.8291AE41@ev1.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:02:07 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> <1244.429T1859T6725552@sky.bus.com> <3A767A40.3FD673A3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-211.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 980899576 taydal-207-55-153-211.ev1.net (30 Jan 2001 18:06:16 -0600) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!207.218.245.171.MISMATCH!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74768 "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: > > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > In the case of Microsoft's Registration Wizard, it's not a rumour. > > Andrew Schulman ran a packet sniffer, and found encrypted strings > > within the software. Users who registered their software online > > The urge to write something that would feed random registrations into > the system at high speed is very strong. Perhaps I was born evil. > If you do that, they will turn you in to the FBI...that is what they are doing to the hackers that crashed their servers recently... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:43:45 GMT Organization: BT Internet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <958fnm$5p2$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> <1244.429T1859T6725552@sky.bus.com> <3A767A40.3FD673A3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3A77721F.8291AE41@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-207-67.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!193.190.198.17!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74648 In article <3A77721F.8291AE41@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net wrote: >If you do that, they will turn you in to the FBI...that is what they >are doing to the hackers that crashed their servers recently... > Heh. I read that as 'Turn you *into* the FBI...' -- I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost... barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:01:18 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7522C9.F6726570@ev1.net> <1244.429T1859T6725552@sky.bus.com> <3A767A40.3FD673A3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3A77721F.8291AE41@ev1.net> <958fnm$5p2$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.00.56 X-Server-Date: 31 Jan 2001 13:01:56 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!hshubs Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74802 In article <958fnm$5p2$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) wrote: >Heh. I read that as 'Turn you *into* the FBI...' "Okay, you're a banana!" -- Howard S Shubs "Run in circles, scream and shout!" "I hope you have good backups!" ###### Message-ID: <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 980956872 128.135.145.16 (Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:01:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:01:12 CST Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:03:31 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74308 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > 30% of all the income tax returns are submitted on April 15th > via some flavor of the net. The registry is down because > [fill in any reason] and all submissions are rejected. April > 16th at 00:01, the IRS attaches the bank accounts of all who > are late setting the freeze account bit. The late submissions > get resubmitted on April 16th 09:00 [somebody booted the > registry computer]. All payment transfers are rejected because > the accounts have been frozen. Quite. It'll happen one day. Unless of course someone bothered to code the system properly in the first place. Error message ought to be: Bzzzt. Sorry, your submission failed because we didn't bother to anticipate any realtime scenarios whatsoever. But we'll try and imply that it's your fault. Afterall we've made you untrained, unpaid yet liable tax collectors - just so we don't have to do it. So, seeing as we built a system to make our lives easier, and it broke, we will punish you for our mistakes. Thankyou. -- Simon Allaway | "We had an edict of "thou shalt program in University of Chicago | The One True Language"... Anthropology | It's sorta like insisting that all lawn 5-4390 Haskell Hall | mowers be built with jet engines." /BAH ###### From: dochawk@psu.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 31 Jan 2001 16:33:42 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 12 Message-ID: <959ep6$15k8@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu cc: neil@franklin.ch Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74373 In article <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >The terms of the contract you enter when opening the software shrinkwrap. >Not to mention quite a few other software contracts. Read the fine print. There was a great Dilbert sequence on this. Dogbert found Dilbert ironing Bill Gates' clothes, as he hadn't read the fine print. WHy not call his lawyer? Because he was in the kitchen cooking . . . hawk ###### From: "Geoff Summerhayes" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:05:22 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74647 "Simon Allaway" wrote in message news:3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu... > Error message ought to be: > > Bzzzt. Sorry, your submission failed because we didn't bother to > anticipate any realtime scenarios whatsoever. But we'll try and imply > that it's your fault. Afterall we've made you untrained, unpaid yet > liable tax collectors - just so we don't have to do it. So, seeing as we > built a system to make our lives easier, and it broke, we will punish > you for our mistakes. Thankyou. > Or: In retrospect, taking into account the court's decision, maybe it wasn't such a good idea to use J++... Geoff ###### Message-ID: <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 981042661 128.135.145.16 (Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:51:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:51:01 CST Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:53:28 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74305 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > Ah, but you missed the point that something broke that they > didn't make or have control over. The fact that the IRS > systems continued to work in spite of a breakdown of the > communications net before the transactions got to the system > is a flaw that can't really be dealt with nicely. I'm finding > it impossible to "prove" a break in a comm path from the > receiver end because I don't know that something got sent, > let alone when it got sent. My comments were driven by my desire to just rant about the methods of the IRS and the IR in England; not so much based on fact. I was also under the impression you were speculating on the future and not recounting the past; my mistake. I see now that even if you apply a transactional approach that still leaves people out in the cold when their submission is refused just because of one small piece in the chain. I recall a scenario told to me during training on web application development. Imagine an air-line reservation system where you (the purchaser of tickets) went ahead and specified dates and times, you chose your seat. But when you specify you want kosher or veggie meals, the system cannot contact the catering company which has it's machines the other side of a flaky 64k line. The system allows you to continue, but states uncertainty of your meal status. You go away a moderately hppy customer - at least you have the tickets. The request for food preference goes to a queue (with all the others) that will get sent to the cateres as soon as the line comes back up. Seeing as the catering system and the airline 'trust' each other, the order can go through. Is there no room for the IRS (or whomever) to take this approach? I do realise that income tax and plane tickets are entirely different things though. As a 'customer' of the IRS I'd be yelling "I was sat there hitting submit but YOUR damned system didn't work...don't punish ME!" Simon -- Simon Allaway | "We had an edict of "thou shalt program in University of Chicago | The One True Language"... Anthropology | It's sorta like insisting that all lawn 5-4390 Haskell Hall | mowers be built with jet engines." /BAH ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:07:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.161.245.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 981043620 24.161.245.63 (Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:07:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:07:00 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74673 On Thu, 01 Feb 01 13:40:49 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Ah, but you missed the point that something broke that they > didn't make or have control over. The fact that the IRS > systems continued to work in spite of a breakdown of the > communications net before the transactions got to the system > is a flaw that can't really be dealt with nicely. I'm finding > it impossible to "prove" a break in a comm path from the > receiver end because I don't know that something got sent, > let alone when it got sent. Require that the transaction data on each link be serial numbered; alarm on a skipped serial number or on a timeout (assuming there's a reasonable timeout you can set.) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: "R P L" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Lines: 59 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <9DDe6.1799$wa5.57802997@news.randori.com> Organization: Information Highway.com Inc. -- http://www.ihiway.com Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:16:31 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news.randori.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74632 wrote in message news:95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu>, > Simon Allaway wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> 30% of all the income tax returns are submitted on April 15th > >> via some flavor of the net. The registry is down because > >> [fill in any reason] and all submissions are rejected. April > >> 16th at 00:01, the IRS attaches the bank accounts of all who > >> are late setting the freeze account bit. The late submissions > >> get resubmitted on April 16th 09:00 [somebody booted the > >> registry computer]. All payment transfers are rejected because > >> the accounts have been frozen. > > > >Quite. It'll happen one day. > > > >Unless of course someone bothered to code the system properly in the > >first place. > > Bad assumptions here. It'll happen one day because: > > 1. Not one person had the job to deal with the system as > a whole. > > 2. Many systems are involved not all "owned" by the same people, > corporation, or governments. > > 3. Properly means that the transactions had been spec'ed out > before any system was brought up. Hard/software evolution > sometimes has a life of its own. ;-) > > > >Error message ought to be: > > > >Bzzzt. Sorry, your submission failed because we didn't bother to > >anticipate any realtime scenarios whatsoever. But we'll try and imply > >that it's your fault. Afterall we've made you untrained, unpaid yet > >liable tax collectors - just so we don't have to do it. So, seeing as we > >built a system to make our lives easier, and it broke, we will punish > >you for our mistakes. Thankyou. > > Ah, but you missed the point that something broke that they > didn't make or have control over. The fact that the IRS > systems continued to work in spite of a breakdown of the > communications net before the transactions got to the system > is a flaw that can't really be dealt with nicely. I'm finding > it impossible to "prove" a break in a comm path from the > receiver end because I don't know that something got sent, > let alone when it got sent. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. My ISP ate my homework RPL ###### From: "R P L" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <3a70902c.1788149@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> <1115.425T206T8193383@sky.bus.com> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Organization: Information Highway.com Inc. -- http://www.ihiway.com Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:22:03 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!newsfeeder.randori.com!news.randori.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74636 "D.J." wrote in message news:piv37t80fic0u2b4vu6qum41vbhp9lgivv@4ax.com... > > "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > []remember toy commercials that ended with an animated bird that > []said, "It's Kenner! It's fun! Awk!" > > Thanks Charlie. I thought I had sucessfully buried that particular > memory... :-) > > JimP. > -- Ditto RPL "Its Slinky, Its Slinky, a . . . ." ###### From: jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John Francis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 2 Feb 2001 23:50:14 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 11 Message-ID: <95fh3m$19srl$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <1115.425T206T8193383@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dungeon.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 981157814 1373045 130.62.53.248 (2 Feb 2001 23:50:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 2001 23:50:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!dungeon.engr.sgi.com!jfrancis Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74556 In article , R P L wrote: > >"Its Slinky, Its Slinky, a . . . ." Rolls down the stairs, alone or in pairs, rolls over your neighbour's dog .. -- John "lo-og" Francis ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 10:25:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <95m3f1$g3g$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVagKDso1G9R5//Z4f/IBIBzmAKmDui2vwTox6CWvKg52qNIbqpNmkNX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 2001 11:40:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-246 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74957 In article , jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) wrote: >On Thu, 01 Feb 01 13:40:49 GMT, > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Ah, but you missed the point that something broke that they >> didn't make or have control over. The fact that the IRS >> systems continued to work in spite of a breakdown of the >> communications net before the transactions got to the system >> is a flaw that can't really be dealt with nicely. I'm finding >> it impossible to "prove" a break in a comm path from the >> receiver end because I don't know that something got sent, >> let alone when it got sent. > >Require that the transaction data on each link be serial numbered; alarm >on a skipped serial number or on a timeout (assuming there's a reasonable >timeout you can set.) That requires numbering coordination among computers containing diverse hard/software and assumes that everybody is willing to agree to one standard of assigning numbers. There's also the problem of what to do in case of an error. It was comparatively easy to solve when the guys did the ANF-10 network. It got more difficult when they were trying to "talk" to DECnet and we all were working for the same company. The computing world has a rogue who continuously insists on implementing software that's slightly but completely incompatible with everybody else. So, I don't think the solution can be based on cooperating code. I'm beginning to think that there are verification tasks that have to be left to the user. But I don't think that we're going to be able to produce a hard and fast rule. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 10:17:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 57 Message-ID: <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbzVO3O1dlZn7oJO0BHjfUsfxlip9DidvIksBie5Q9KA0erlFP1R0Dd X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Feb 2001 11:32:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-253 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74960 In article <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> With all the delays, should the software be able >> to coordinate the conditions over all the network or should the >> user be required to come back later and verify all conditions >> have been met? I don't know. > >Good question. I guess it depends on how long the delays can be. Either >way, I'd expect the system to sort itself out (naturally the time >constraints would be sensitive to how close the flight is). It would be >easy to email/fax/call the passenger with the confirmation. That assumes that the passenger is wired ;-). One of the pet peeves that I have developed over the last year is just this assumption. For instance, grocery stores send out weekly fliers to advertise their wares. However, they no longer print where their stores are but just give a w^3 name. So I never go shopping at their stores even though I'm looking for something that is not Stop&Shop. > >> >As a 'customer' of the IRS I'd be yelling "I was sat there >> >hitting submit but YOUR damned system didn't work...don't punish ME!" >> >> Ah, but in my scenario, the IRS systems were working just fine. It >> was a process in the middle of the transmission that wasn't working. > >Well yes, but I wouldn't care at that point. I'd be screaming blue >murder at the owner of the logo in the corner of the web site. Right. But you can only scream for so long; eventually you want to begin to solve the problem. > >If only it were easy to test all scenarios all the time before systems >go live. I've written cute little http clients to beat the crap out of >web sites, but that never truly simulates human users. Or for that >matter the interactions between all underlying systems. There are ways to do this but none guarantee 100% warm feelings :-). There are people who have the knack for breaking things no matter how careful they are. We always did a Token Dummy test, too. > > >> Now, >> how does that guy identify which server is screwing up if >> he can't get documentation of the path my post is taking? >> Remember, he can't read my post so he doesn't even know that >> any input exists. > >Hmm. Not good. Right. It's a problem I've been trying to solve for decades. It's almost the equivalent of measuring a non-existant something. /BAH ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 10:16:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 67 Message-ID: <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZs0/mjTy0mpCsmbbxlyqpaaaWpNO8ckyV4ic6xKHJ4nHy+E9meoF9q X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 2001 11:31:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-246 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74961 In article <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> Ah, but you missed the point that something broke that they >> didn't make or have control over. The fact that the IRS >> systems continued to work in spite of a breakdown of the >> communications net before the transactions got to the system >> is a flaw that can't really be dealt with nicely. I'm finding >> it impossible to "prove" a break in a comm path from the >> receiver end because I don't know that something got sent, >> let alone when it got sent. > >My comments were driven by my desire to just rant about the methods of >the IRS and the IR in England; not so much based on fact. I was also >under the impression you were speculating on the future and not >recounting the past; my mistake. I suspect the scenarios are in the past, present, and future :-). > >I see now that even if you apply a transactional approach that still >leaves people out in the cold when their submission is refused just >because of one small piece in the chain. I recall a scenario told to me >during training on web application development. Imagine an air-line >reservation system where you (the purchaser of tickets) went ahead and >specified dates and times, you chose your seat. But when you specify you >want kosher or veggie meals, the system cannot contact the catering >company which has it's machines the other side of a flaky 64k line. The >system allows you to continue, but states uncertainty of your meal >status. You go away a moderately hppy customer - at least you have the >tickets. The request for food preference goes to a queue (with all the >others) that will get sent to the cateres as soon as the line comes back >up. Seeing as the catering system and the airline 'trust' each other, >the order can go through. That's another good example. Note that the transactions have a definite heirarchy. The user may require that, if there is no food available for the flight, then he doesn't want to take the trip. With all the delays, should the software be able to coordinate the conditions over all the network or should the user be required to come back later and verify all conditions have been met? I don't know. > >Is there no room for the IRS (or whomever) to take this approach? I do >realise that income tax and plane tickets are entirely different things >though. As a 'customer' of the IRS I'd be yelling "I was sat there >hitting submit but YOUR damned system didn't work...don't punish ME!" Ah, but in my scenario, the IRS systems were working just fine. It was a process in the middle of the transmission that wasn't working. Right now, there's a newsserver in this world that drops all of my posts because the dates on them have 2-digit years. Any person whose path is on the other side of that newsserver only knows that I've written a post when somebody replies to it. Now, how does that guy identify which server is screwing up if he can't get documentation of the path my post is taking? Remember, he can't read my post so he doesn't even know that any input exists. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Chris Cebelenski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Message-ID: References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <1115.425T206T8193383@sky.bus.com> <95fh3m$19srl$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:29:58 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:31:44 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-sjo.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74938 On 2 Feb 2001 23:50:14 GMT, jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John Francis) wrote: >In article , >R P L wrote: >> >>"Its Slinky, Its Slinky, a . . . ." > >Rolls down the stairs, >alone or in pairs, >rolls over your neighbour's dog .. It's big, it's heavy, it's WOOD! Ah yes... I remember when toys where made of wood... Oh well, back to herding electrons... Chris ###### Message-ID: <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 981391024 128.135.145.16 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:37:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:37:04 CST Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:39:53 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!loops.cs.wisc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:74949 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > With all the delays, should the software be able > to coordinate the conditions over all the network or should the > user be required to come back later and verify all conditions > have been met? I don't know. Good question. I guess it depends on how long the delays can be. Either way, I'd expect the system to sort itself out (naturally the time constraints would be sensitive to how close the flight is). It would be easy to email/fax/call the passenger with the confirmation. > >As a 'customer' of the IRS I'd be yelling "I was sat there > >hitting submit but YOUR damned system didn't work...don't punish ME!" > > Ah, but in my scenario, the IRS systems were working just fine. It > was a process in the middle of the transmission that wasn't working. Well yes, but I wouldn't care at that point. I'd be screaming blue murder at the owner of the logo in the corner of the web site. If only it were easy to test all scenarios all the time before systems go live. I've written cute little http clients to beat the crap out of web sites, but that never truly simulates human users. Or for that matter the interactions between all underlying systems. > Now, > how does that guy identify which server is screwing up if > he can't get documentation of the path my post is taking? > Remember, he can't read my post so he doesn't even know that > any input exists. Hmm. Not good. Simon -- Simon Allaway | "We had an edict of "thou shalt program in University of Chicago | The One True Language"... Anthropology | It's sorta like insisting that all lawn 5-4390 Haskell Hall | mowers be built with jet engines." /BAH ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 11:32:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 80 Message-ID: <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZppDd6p9koEzSqzrnpXZ6d76V9CklevAlZP4IYJckQ+OVtUZL3XKSF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 2001 12:47:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-70 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75040 In article <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> However, they no longer print where their stores are >> but just give a w^3 name. So I never go shopping at their stores >> even though I'm looking for something that is not Stop&Shop. > >Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the >scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this >in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, >can't buy stuff. I refuse to turn on my computer just to go buy milk. >That brings us back to one theory of the whole voting >process in Florida. Oh, I don't want to go there. I'm still recovering from the last thread diversion that mess produced :-). Just as an aside, there is still hope in the world. The engineers studying the voting devices used, actually did not have the hidden agenda of throwing computer technology at the problem. Whew! > >> There are ways to do this but none guarantee 100% warm feelings :-). >> There are people who have the knack for breaking things no matter >> how careful they are. We always did a Token Dummy test, too. > >Can you elaborate on that? I'd love to know how you created a Token >Dummy :o) Young children? Parents? Animals? All of the above >simultaneously? Yes. Well, I think some were animals :-). Once upon a time, a monitor development cycle was winding down. The writer of the Monitor Installation Guide wanted to make sure that her manual didn't have any errors, holes, or errata. She asked the development management for computer time and a developer to set with her while doing a lukewarm start installation. (A cold start installation would have involved turning the equipment on; we didn't do that.) There was objections from the developers because stand-alone computer time was precious and developer time was even more precious. The compromise was to grant stand-alone time on the weekends (after JMF did his early morning work) and, instead of a developer, she got me. We got together with a set of tapes that presumedly would have been a copy of that submitted to SDC, her Installation manual, and System #1042. We went through the manual, step-by-step. There were holes, the result managed to create monitors that crashed. There was missing stuff on the tapes and some of the software didn't work at all. A number of procedures ended up being real CTCH-22 problems that had to be solved. The little project produced such amazing quality control that the task was written into every project plan after that release. The problem for later monitor projects was finding a Token Dummy. The next Token Dummy, after me, was one of the developer's wife with the developer as the other half of the installation team. (There are reasons that married people shouldn't be partners in bridge games.) However, that guy was able to "simplify" a lot of stuff with the next development cycle. MONGEN.EXE was really a pain in the ass. The real key to a Token Dummy test is to not be "smart" enough to take short cuts. I was able to be both a Token Dummy and smart enough to take short cuts to get through the test. Our first token dummy project actually found so many problems that we ended up doing the test three or four times because I did have to resort to a short cut or two in order to go over the whole manual at one sitting. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.74 X-Trace: uchinews 981516132 128.135.145.74 (Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:22:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:22:12 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:22:13 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75028 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > However, they no longer print where their stores are > but just give a w^3 name. So I never go shopping at their stores > even though I'm looking for something that is not Stop&Shop. Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, can't buy stuff. That brings us back to one theory of the whole voting process in Florida. > There are ways to do this but none guarantee 100% warm feelings :-). > There are people who have the knack for breaking things no matter > how careful they are. We always did a Token Dummy test, too. Can you elaborate on that? I'd love to know how you created a Token Dummy :o) Young children? Parents? Animals? All of the above simultaneously? Simon ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 7 Feb 2001 14:25:33 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 39 Message-ID: <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <94mv1m$15b$1@og1.olagrande.net> <94p8k2$sp9$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A708E5E.1ECB2581@email.com> <94qdvk$kal$1@megami.org> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!sp15at20.hursley.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75062 In <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> However, they no longer print where their stores are >> but just give a w^3 name. So I never go shopping at their stores >> even though I'm looking for something that is not Stop&Shop. > >Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the >scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this >in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, >can't buy stuff. That brings us back to one theory of the whole voting >process in Florida. > >> There are ways to do this but none guarantee 100% warm feelings :-). >> There are people who have the knack for breaking things no matter >> how careful they are. We always did a Token Dummy test, too. > >Can you elaborate on that? I'd love to know how you created a Token >Dummy :o) Young children? Parents? Animals? All of the above >simultaneously? > >Simon Sometimes, the best testers are programmers, usually from another project. They know enough to be dangerous, but have no loyalities to the project being tested. And, they've had enough bad experiences with their code to know how to break someone else's (Paybacks are h*ll!). Plus, if they're motivated properly, they can really be dangerous. Fortunately, the incentives for motivation are usually quite inexpensive. I just happen to have a coffee cup around here with a nice logo on it, from where I demolished another project as a tester. We usually called such testing "Gorilla Testing", as in "Get a 400 pound gorilla to pound on it to see if it breaks.". Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 7 Feb 2001 14:57:08 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 27 Message-ID: <95rno4$fvs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!sp15at20.hursley.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75070 In <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, > Simon Allaway wrote: >> >>Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the >>scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this >>in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, >>can't buy stuff. > >I refuse to turn on my computer just to go buy milk. > > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. "Turn on my computer"? What?!? Does this imply that you turn it off sometimes? Seriously, though, I know quite a few people who never turn their computers off. Hmm, maybe that's why California is having power problems now. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 08 Feb 01 16:22:43 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <663.439T2193T9825610@sky.bus.com> References: <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-499.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75104 In article steve@ams-gw.sohara.org (Steve O'Hara-Smith) writes: >Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >> "screen cap"? Do you mean "screen capture"? > Yes, terrible what happens to my use of language hanging >around with American technical writers :) I marvel at the odd-looking signs I see on visits to the States. Like the crosswalks marked "PED XING". I like to think they're talking about some Chinese person, because I'd be quite offended if I thought they were referring to me as a "ped", whatever that is. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 11:44:53 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <960pkm$393$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <95u5g7$sau$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A83AA09.A8AB3C0B@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbZtx0nNk+yZX1pdUzGPTohkUBHrFc5nnkoZm/AmSJsoB2ZrH9VfQTf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2001 13:00:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-141 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75121 In article <3A83AA09.A8AB3C0B@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip..] >> >> Nice name. The FORTRAN group had problems shaking out >> the bugs for their FORTRAN IV compiler and OTS before field test >> because we simply didn't write FORTRAN code. So they did an >> inhouse ad campaign where anyone who found a _reproducible_ >> bug would get a dollar. I put my dollar in a safe place...I >> wonder where it is now? >> >Your mom probably gave the dollar to your nephew for printing >birthday cards with his computer... (;-) There's a reason I live 1000 miles away from them. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 11:45:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <95u597$sau$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaXmNFPph6Y/m8IskYxLmm5GMbipHdIDFBqJpxgXK5Jn+/g2gHD3UOH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2001 13:00:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75135 In article <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > >> In <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Sometimes, the best testers are programmers, usually from another >> project. They know enough to be dangerous, but have no loyalities > > We have a technical writer that manages to pick >most of the fluff out >of new releases by trying to screen cap *everything* including the error >messages :) Now that's a person who should be revered :-). We had a programmer whose job was to verify that the Monitor Calls manual was accurate. She teensy tiny stubs of MACRO-10 programs to test each new UUO with all its combinations. This woman had the knack of sniffing out bizarre monitor bugs; one that JMF couldn't believe was when her CORE UUO argument block accidentially cross a page boundary. She "found" so many bugs with her knack that TW gave her the nickname of Crash. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 11:49:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: <95u5g7$sau$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZzmt18p6m7Uo5DeB7kxXqkoUpazCv9B/LUsDk5Gj0JpuAxTrGbCnNT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2001 13:04:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75148 In article <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> However, they no longer print where their stores are >>> but just give a w^3 name. So I never go shopping at their stores >>> even though I'm looking for something that is not Stop&Shop. >> >>Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the >>scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this >>in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, >>can't buy stuff. That brings us back to one theory of the whole voting >>process in Florida. >> >>> There are ways to do this but none guarantee 100% warm feelings :-). >>> There are people who have the knack for breaking things no matter >>> how careful they are. We always did a Token Dummy test, too. >> >>Can you elaborate on that? I'd love to know how you created a Token >>Dummy :o) Young children? Parents? Animals? All of the above >>simultaneously? >> >>Simon > >Sometimes, the best testers are programmers, usually from another >project. They know enough to be dangerous, but have no loyalities >to the project being tested. And, they've had enough bad >experiences with their code to know how to break someone else's >(Paybacks are h*ll!). Plus, if they're motivated properly, they can >really be dangerous. Fortunately, the incentives for motivation are >usually quite inexpensive. I just happen to have a coffee cup >around here with a nice logo on it, from where I demolished another >project as a tester. We usually called such testing "Gorilla >Testing", as in "Get a 400 pound gorilla to pound on it to see if it >breaks.". Nice name. The FORTRAN group had problems shaking out the bugs for their FORTRAN IV compiler and OTS before field test because we simply didn't write FORTRAN code. So they did an inhouse ad campaign where anyone who found a _reproducible_ bug would get a dollar. I put my dollar in a safe place...I wonder where it is now? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 11:39:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <95u4u0$sau$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <95rno4$fvs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZCiabPXSvY9h7OmqQf8rylRHo6aszAFacWNZ/gH8KUirqdko7eZ626 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2001 12:54:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75151 In article <95rno4$fvs$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>In article <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, >> Simon Allaway wrote: >>> >>>Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the >>>scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this >>>in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, >>>can't buy stuff. >> >>I refuse to turn on my computer just to go buy milk. >"Turn on my computer"? What?!? Does this imply that you turn it >off sometimes? Never "sometimes"; all the time. I turn it on when I'm going to use it and turn it off when I'm done. > Seriously, though, I know quite a few people who >never turn their computers off. I'm so paranoid that I prefer my computer not to on when the power fluctuates around here (and it's been doing that for many years now). I have circuit breakers; two levels of surge protections (one on the panel to cover the house and one set up just before the excitment reaches my computer gear. > >Hmm, maybe that's why California is having power problems now. There are other reasons. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:18:45 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 10 Message-ID: <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1109.vcu.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: buty.wanadoo.nl 981573682 65254 194.134.203.90 (7 Feb 2001 19:21:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:21:22 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.tele.dk!194.165.93.117!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75191 glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > In <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Sometimes, the best testers are programmers, usually from another > project. They know enough to be dangerous, but have no loyalities We have a technical writer that manages to pick most of the fluff out of new releases by trying to screen cap *everything* including the error messages :) ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:19:00 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <6ur91qgeu2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <94ukc6$203$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-16.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 981595104 24629 139.142.177.146 (8 Feb 2001 01:18:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 01:18:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75194 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > >> In <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Sometimes, the best testers are programmers, usually from another >> project. They know enough to be dangerous, but have no loyalities > > We have a technical writer that manages to pick most of the fluff out >of new releases by trying to screen cap *everything* including the error >messages :) "screen cap"? Do you mean "screen capture"? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:53:55 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <3a6dad88_1@news.nwlink.com> <3A73720A.C33978AB@ev1.net> <95134c$n26$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1407.vcu.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: buty.wanadoo.nl 981663333 50550 194.134.170.132 (8 Feb 2001 20:15:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:15:33 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.2-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.109.6.150!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news2.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75210 Gene Wirchenko wrote: > "screen cap"? Do you mean "screen capture"? Yes, terrible what happens to my use of language hanging around with American technical writers :) ###### From: Jim Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 8 Feb 2001 19:55:45 -0800 Organization: Marsport Ice Cream Parlour Lines: 19 Message-ID: <95vpo101926@drn.newsguy.com> References: <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> <663.439T2193T9825610@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-568.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75119 Charlie Gibbs says: >I marvel at the odd-looking signs I see on visits to the States. >Like the crosswalks marked "PED XING". I like to think they're >talking about some Chinese person, because I'd be quite offended >if I thought they were referring to me as a "ped", whatever that is. You mean they aren't for a model of starship crossing ? Hmm. I need to renew my subscription to Aluminum Foil Hat magazine... :-) JimP. -- djim55 atty datasync dotty com Disclaimer: Standard http://www.datasync.com/~djim55/ http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/ ###### Message-ID: <3A839286.49B3E400@ev1.net> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:47:34 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-237.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 981694307 taydal-207-55-144-237.ev1.net (8 Feb 2001 22:51:47 -0600) Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75265 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu>, > Simon Allaway wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> However, they no longer print where their stores are > >> but just give a w^3 name. So I never go shopping at their stores > >> even though I'm looking for something that is not Stop&Shop. > > > >Hmm, yes. Good point. That irritates me too. It's almost creating the > >scenario where people that aren't happy with using technology like this > >in their lives, or simply can't afford it or don't have access to it, > >can't buy stuff. > > I refuse to turn on my computer just to go buy milk. > Reminds me of a cartoon: The little boy was pulled from his computer, and forced to go to the country to see nature. As he looked out over a cliff into a beautiful valley, he exclaimed: "Wow!!! Is this available on CD-ROM???" -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 06:54:24 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> References: <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> <663.439T2193T9825610@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-34.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 981701618 31819 139.142.177.164 (9 Feb 2001 06:53:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:53:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75201 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article steve@ams-gw.sohara.org >(Steve O'Hara-Smith) writes: > >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >>> "screen cap"? Do you mean "screen capture"? > >> Yes, terrible what happens to my use of language hanging >>around with American technical writers :) > >I marvel at the odd-looking signs I see on visits to the States. >Like the crosswalks marked "PED XING". I like to think they're >talking about some Chinese person, because I'd be quite offended >if I thought they were referring to me as a "ped", whatever that is. Please, Charlie, don't be so pedestrian. BTW, I've been meaning to ask: how come your messages show as being in '37 (?2037)? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 07:59:01 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 981707318 mail2news:25961 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!bullseye.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75277 In article <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> genew@shuswap.net "Gene Wirchenko" writes: > Please, Charlie, don't be so pedestrian. > BTW, I've been meaning to ask: how come your messages show as > being in '37 (?2037)? Because your newsreader doesn't understand his Date: header? This reads: Date: 08 Feb 01 16:22:43 -0800 Dates on news articles are supposed to follow the same rules (RFC-822) as for e-mail: the form used above by Charlie is *perfectly* valid, since there IS NO REQUIREMENT to use 4-digit years (nor day-in-week designators). I suggest that you should complain to the author of your newsreading software that it is unable to read a valid standards-conformant date. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### Message-ID: <3A83AA09.A8AB3C0B@ev1.net> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:27:53 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <95u5g7$sau$6@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-237.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 981700326 taydal-207-55-144-237.ev1.net (9 Feb 2001 00:32:06 -0600) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75275 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip..] > > Nice name. The FORTRAN group had problems shaking out > the bugs for their FORTRAN IV compiler and OTS before field test > because we simply didn't write FORTRAN code. So they did an > inhouse ad campaign where anyone who found a _reproducible_ > bug would get a dollar. I put my dollar in a safe place...I > wonder where it is now? > Your mom probably gave the dollar to your nephew for printing birthday cards with his computer... (;-) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:28:13 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Bozo Central in Atlanta Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9615qt$d8j$2@og1.olagrande.net> References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: jolomo@olagrande.net NNTP-Posting-Host: og1.olagrande.net X-Trace: og1.olagrande.net 981736093 13587 63.98.209.2 (9 Feb 2001 16:28:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@olagrande.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:28:13 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!news.olagrande.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75162 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > Dates on news articles are supposed to follow the same rules (RFC-822) as > for e-mail: the form used above by Charlie is *perfectly* valid, since > there IS NO REQUIREMENT to use 4-digit years (nor day-in-week > designators). And my favorite thing about Charlie..... > X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) We're all Bozos on this bus -- Joe Morris, SysAdmin and Not Insane Atlanta stories: http://www.olagrande.net/users/jolomo/atlanta.html ###### From: jra@dorothy.msas.net (Jay R. Ashworth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: jra@baylink.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:28:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.32.106.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.tampabay.rr.com 981757682 65.32.106.141 (Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:28:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:28:02 EST Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75222 On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 07:59:01 GMT, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > Because your newsreader doesn't understand his Date: header? > > This reads: > > Date: 08 Feb 01 16:22:43 -0800 > > Dates on news articles are supposed to follow the same rules (RFC-822) as > for e-mail: the form used above by Charlie is *perfectly* valid, since > there IS NO REQUIREMENT to use 4-digit years (nor day-in-week > designators). No, but they're not required to assume that 2 digit dates have a pivot year, either, now are they? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 804 5015 ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:59:25 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <981849565snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 981901733 mail2news:7746 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75354 In article jra@baylink.com "Jay R. Ashworth" writes: > No, but they're not required to assume that 2 digit dates have a pivot > year, either, now are they? It depends upon just wherabouts you're using the "date". Certainly in RFC-977, which has much more stringent necessity for getting dates "right", there is explicit mention of how the two-digit years are to be interpreted: The date is sent as 6 digits in the format YYMMDD, where YY is the last two digits of the year, MM is the two digits of the month (with leading zero, if appropriate), and DD is the day of the month (with leading zero, if appropriate). The closest century is assumed as part of the year (i.e., 86 specifies 1986, 30 specifies 2030, 99 is 1999, 00 is 2000). [Note that when this was written, in 1986, the authors didn't deem it necessary to specify that the two-digit year should have a "leading zero, if appropriate". All the same, they *did* allow for the transition to the last year of the C20th, and onward to the C21st.] The dates in news *headers* are covered by RFC-1036 (and its semi- standard descendants) and also RFC-822; their principle use is supposed to be for *human* consumption (and the humans are, moreover, expected to have a modicum of common sense, a resourse all-too-sadly lacking these days), so there is no specific treatment of a "pivot date". [I see, incidentally, that RFC-1036 specifies "This date remains unchanged as the message is propagated throughout the network" and yet I note that many user's newsreaders appear to convert this date, for display, into the local user's timezone. Actually, it's possibly a good job that they do, because it obviously winkles out those idiots who have their computers configured with the default -0800 timezone, and yet have their clock running, as they mistakenly believe, on British time, thus putting all their postings into the future.] Nevertheless, software which interprets a "year" of "01" as being "2037" is seriously broken. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:47:43 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> <663.439T2193T9825610@sky.bus.com> <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-129-222.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 981863264 4293 207.148.129.222 (11 Feb 2001 03:47:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:47:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75310 On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 06:54:24 GMT, genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >>In article steve@ams-gw.sohara.org >>(Steve O'Hara-Smith) writes: >> >>>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>> >>>> "screen cap"? Do you mean "screen capture"? >> >>> Yes, terrible what happens to my use of language hanging >>>around with American technical writers :) >> >>I marvel at the odd-looking signs I see on visits to the States. >>Like the crosswalks marked "PED XING". I like to think they're >>talking about some Chinese person, because I'd be quite offended >>if I thought they were referring to me as a "ped", whatever that is. > > Please, Charlie, don't be so pedestrian. > > BTW, I've been meaning to ask: how come your messages show as >being in '37 (?2037)? > >Sincerely, > >Gene Wirchenko Gene, Free Agent has probably been upgraded since you downloaded 1.1: maybe it's time for an upgrade? Or for about US$25 you can register and pay securely on the web then ftp Agent 1.8 and later (and don't forget to voluntarily remit CA$2.62 GST to Canada Revenue and Customs Agency). Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Message-ID: References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> <981849565snz@dsl.co.uk> Organization: ErsteSoft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:20:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.103.86.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 981904847 216.103.86.8 (Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:20:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:20:47 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lmu.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75341 In article <981849565snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: > Nevertheless, software which interprets a "year" of "01" as being "2037" > is seriously broken. It's more understandable once you realize that the error is about 4 billion seconds. (That is, the time is being converted to a 32-bit number of seconds after some epoch, and the 32-bit number is overflowing. Or underflowing as the case may be.) For example, on a Macintosh the epoch is 1 Jan 1904 00:00:00. One second before that (at time -1) would be 6 Feb 2040 06:28:15. Going back almost 3 years would take you into 1901 or 2037, depending on whether you interpret the result as positive or negative. I don't mean to suggest there's anything Mac-specific about that. The same thing would happen with any other epoch. It's just that the difference between 1901 and 2037 is about 2^32 seconds. -Ron Hunsinger ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 09 Feb 01 10:22:08 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <851.440T448T6223593@sky.bus.com> References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> <9615qt$d8j$2@og1.olagrande.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-324.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75364 In article <9615qt$d8j$2@og1.olagrande.net> jolomo@og1.olagrande.net (Joe Morris) writes: >Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > >> Dates on news articles are supposed to follow the same rules >> (RFC-822) as for e-mail: the form used above by Charlie is >> *perfectly* valid, since there IS NO REQUIREMENT to use 4-digit >> years (nor day-in-week designators). > >And my favorite thing about Charlie..... >> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) The ironic part is that Thor has the same bug when displaying incoming news. At least 2.5a does. They might have fixed it in 2.6, but they added other things I like even less, so it's 2.5a forever (or until I move my mail and news to Linux). >We're all Bozos on this bus Thank you, . -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 09 Feb 01 10:16:54 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <856.440T2745T6165910@sky.bus.com> References: <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> <663.439T2193T9825610@sky.bus.com> <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-323.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75373 In article <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >>I marvel at the odd-looking signs I see on visits to the States. >>Like the crosswalks marked "PED XING". I like to think they're >>talking about some Chinese person, because I'd be quite offended >>if I thought they were referring to me as a "ped", whatever that is. > > Please, Charlie, don't be so pedestrian. I think I'll walk away from that one. > BTW, I've been meaning to ask: how come your messages show as >being in '37 (?2037)? My news software has a Y2K bug. There's a newer version available, but it introduces new "features" that I found sufficiently obnoxious that I rolled back to the old one. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 11:36:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <968m9n$4hd$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> <981849565snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZYsmCc+ly2NFsl3EahXPMZlXUySiwpYQ2HD8GE8cm3yJ0gxOUekNOx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2001 12:52:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-180 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75388 In article <981849565snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >In article > jra@baylink.com "Jay R. Ashworth" writes: > >> No, but they're not required to assume that 2 digit dates have a pivot >> year, either, now are they? > >It depends upon just wherabouts you're using the "date". Certainly in >RFC-977, which has much more stringent necessity for getting dates >"right", there is explicit mention of how the two-digit years are to be >interpreted: > > The date is sent as 6 digits in the format YYMMDD, where YY is the > last two digits of the year, MM is the two digits of the month (with > leading zero, if appropriate), and DD is the day of the month (with > leading zero, if appropriate). The closest century is assumed as > part of the year (i.e., 86 specifies 1986, 30 specifies 2030, 99 is > 1999, 00 is 2000). > >[Note that when this was written, in 1986, the authors didn't deem it >necessary to specify that the two-digit year should have a "leading zero, >if appropriate". All the same, they *did* allow for the transition to >the last year of the C20th, and onward to the C21st.] > >The dates in news *headers* are covered by RFC-1036 (and its semi- >standard descendants) and also RFC-822; their principle use is supposed >to be for *human* consumption (and the humans are, moreover, expected to >have a modicum of common sense, a resourse all-too-sadly lacking these >days), so there is no specific treatment of a "pivot date". > >[I see, incidentally, that RFC-1036 specifies "This date remains >unchanged as the message is propagated throughout the network" and yet I >note that many user's newsreaders appear to convert this date, for >display, into the local user's timezone. Actually, it's possibly a good >job that they do, because it obviously winkles out those idiots who have >their computers configured with the default -0800 timezone, and yet have >their clock running, as they mistakenly believe, on British time, thus >putting all their postings into the future.] > >Nevertheless, software which interprets a "year" of "01" as being "2037" >is seriously broken. > One of the reasons that I've put off getting a newsreader that puts out 4-digit years is that there is at least one person out there who was writing Y2K bugs. I considered it a responsibility to "test" new code. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 09:53:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <96b4lr$t29$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> <9615qt$d8j$2@og1.olagrande.net> <851.440T448T6223593@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ+PJXfewYROR8g0J3PLKRajxqcwhTd2dsNgrOSY13hJfbgVSzpBdfN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2001 11:09:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-213 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75390 In article <851.440T448T6223593@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <9615qt$d8j$2@og1.olagrande.net> jolomo@og1.olagrande.net >(Joe Morris) writes: > >>Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >>> Dates on news articles are supposed to follow the same rules >>> (RFC-822) as for e-mail: the form used above by Charlie is >>> *perfectly* valid, since there IS NO REQUIREMENT to use 4-digit >>> years (nor day-in-week designators). >> >>And my favorite thing about Charlie..... >>> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) > >The ironic part is that Thor has the same bug when displaying >incoming news. FWIW, I can see the correct dates with my newsreader. > At least 2.5a does. They might have fixed it >in 2.6, but they added other things I like even less, so it's >2.5a forever (or until I move my mail and news to Linux). Yea. That's when I pine for the -10, FILDDT, and JFCLs. It has just occurred to me that I'm assuming "features" are implemented via a dispatch table :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:54:08 +0000 Organization: None Message-ID: References: <3A7459EC.CA1DCAEF@uchicago.edu> <9593tm$jfm$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A783753.F5627DA9@uchicago.edu> <95btbq$2f5$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A798678.B093068D@uchicago.edu> <95m2ue$g3g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7ED759.E56FD741@uchicago.edu> <95onc2$i7d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A80BF65.3DB1A2AA@uchicago.edu> <95rg5h$sr9$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A839286.49B3E400@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 981935633 nnrp-07:27219 NO-IDENT hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!bullseye.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75428 In article <3A839286.49B3E400@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > Reminds me of a cartoon: The little boy was pulled from his computer, > and forced to go to the country to see nature. As he looked out over > a cliff into a beautiful valley, he exclaimed: "Wow!!! Is this available > on CD-ROM???" No, no, it's "How many polygons is this ? How long did it take to render ?". Simon. -- http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | You just gave me a Space:1999 flashback. No junk email please. | My lawyers will be in touch. | -- Christian M Gadeken ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:52:06 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <982086726snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <95rlst$l44$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <5i3s59.m07.ln@ams-gw.sohara.org> <3a81b67a.9479511@news.shuswap.net> <663.439T2193T9825610@sky.bus.com> <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <856.440T2745T6165910@sky.bus..com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 982090599 mail2news:443 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75495 In article <856.440T2745T6165910@sky.bus.com> cgibbs@sky.bus.com "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > In article <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> genew@shuswap.net > (Gene Wirchenko) writes: > > > BTW, I've been meaning to ask: how come your messages show as > >being in '37 (?2037)? > > My news software has a Y2K bug. There's a newer version available, > but it introduces new "features" that I found sufficiently > obnoxious that I rolled back to the old one. No, as I've already said, your news software does NOT have a Y2K bug. It might only emit two digits for the year in the date, but that is what is mandated by the relevant standards anyway. It is other people's software that has a Y2K bug, if it fails to interpret that two-digit year sensibly. (If your software emitted "101" as the year than that /would/ be a Y2K bug; but it doesn't.) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### Date: 13 Feb 2001 23:46:39 +0000 From: "Adam Atkinson" Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <3a8392ca.57513543@news.shuswap.net> <981705541snz@dsl.co.uk> <9615qt$d8j$2@og1.olagrande.net> <851.440T448T6223593@sky.bus.com> Message-ID: <915.444T1956T14264577ghira@mistral.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo X-No-Ahbou: yes Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.6a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.184.231.43 X-Trace: 13 Feb 2001 23:47:37 GMT, 195.184.231.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!193.190.198.17!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!news.netkonect.net!shiva.ukisp.net!195.184.231.43 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:75479 On 09-Feb-01 18:22:08, Charlie Gibbs said: >>> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) >The ironic part is that Thor has the same bug when displaying >incoming news. At least 2.5a does. They might have fixed it >in 2.6, but they added other things I like even less, so it's >2.5a forever (or until I move my mail and news to Linux). What don't you like in 2.6? I've been on 2.6 (well, 2.6a now) so long I can't remember what the differences are. The only thing that obviously needs fixing in 2.6a is the way times in headers miss out leading zeros. That's pretty awful. If 2.5a doesn't do that, then that is a good reason for downgrading. -- Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk) But what *IS* the internet? It's the largest equivalence class in the reflexive transitive symmetric closure of the relationship "can be reached by an IP packet from".