From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: 15 Nov 2000 06:52:38 GMT Lines: 79 Message-ID: <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> X-Trace: sy3Ae0VlwagsA8j5reh/ndbGcJKGGf6mG/NgnZzXNmo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 2000 06:52:38 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68480 Joachim Pense wrote: > And, finally, what is the historical relation of qed(x)/ted to the Unix zoo > of editors (ed/ex/vi/sed...)? What appears below looks dangerously Mentifex-like, but I assure you it is actually supposed to represent a vi-centric family tree of editors. Links that I can't prove but want to believe are shown as question marks. There are undoubtedly errors and omissions, so if anyone can correct any of these I would appreciate it. eric Colossal Typewriter by John McCarthy and Roland Silver for the PDP-1 | Photon typesetter ? | editors by Michael ? \ Barnett & Kalon Expensive Typewriter CREATE/EDIT \ Kelley for TECO for PDP-1 by Steve Piner for CTSS \ IBM 704 for PDP-1 / | / | \ \__ \ by Dan Murphy / | / | \ \ \ | * Expensive Typewriter editors EDITS | MEMO/MODIFY | | VEDIT | for PDP-1, improved for by Arthur | by Leslie | | by Victor | by Peter Deutsch PDP-4, Samuel | Lowry / | Yngve | | PDP-5/8 for CTSS \ for CTSS / _/ for PDP-6 | ? \_ \ | / _/ CTSS TECO by QED ? \_ \ | / / / Greenblatt, for Berkeley SDS-940 ? \ \ | | | / Holloway, by Deutsch and LINED TYPSET for CTSS and Nelson Butler Lampson for PDP-6 by Jerry Saltzer ? | | / \ | | | ? | | / \ | PDP-7/9 editor | ? DEC | QED, * QED | | ? TECO | as published for CTSS | ????????????????|??? | in CACM by Ken Thompson | ?? | ITS | | | ? ED (and EDL, EDA, EDB) TECO | | STOPGAP for CTSS / | | QED for PDP-10 | / / | for Multics by Bill Weiher | / | | by Ken Thompson | edit | | | / \ SOS for Multics | | | / \ for PDP-10 by Charles Garman | | | qedx QED by Steve | ___/ | | for Multics for GCOS Savitzky | / EMACS | by Dennis Ritchie ? edm / in TECO | | ? for Multics / by RMS et al. QUIDS | ? / / | | by George Coulouris * ed ? _____/ / | | et al. for PDP-7 Unix ? / / | | | by Ken Thompson ? | / | | | | ? ZED/DOC / Multics | | | ? by Vaughan / EMACS | | ed ? Pratt / by Bernard | | for Unix ? in TECO / Greenberg | | (various versions) ? | / | / | | ? | / \ / | | ? | / GNU Emacs \ ed ? / / \ for Unix v6 ? / / \ / | \ ? / / \ / other eds | ? / / em (UCLA?) | ? / / Unix ed with additions | | ? | / from George Coulouris \ | ? | / | | \__ | | ? | / | | \__ | | ? | / other | ex (v1) | / em | Unix ed with additions / / variants | by Bill Joy and Charles / / DED Haley / / by Richard Bornat, | / / Harold Thimbleby ex (v2) / / Unix ed with additions by Bill Joy | ex/vi (v3) extended by Mark Horton ###### Message-ID: <3A12CE48.FAC4F99E@thinkage.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:56:24 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 974310981 192.102.11.4 (Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:56:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:56:21 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68406 Eric Fischer wrote: > > Joachim Pense wrote: > > > And, finally, what is the historical relation of qed(x)/ted to the Unix zoo > > of editors (ed/ex/vi/sed...)? > > What appears below looks dangerously Mentifex-like, but I assure you > it is actually supposed to represent a vi-centric family tree of editors. > Links that I can't prove but want to believe are shown as question marks. > > There are undoubtedly errors and omissions, so if anyone can correct any > of these I would appreciate it. | ? \_ \ | / _/ CTSS TECO by > QED ? \_ \ | / / / Greenblatt, > for Berkeley SDS-940 ? \ \ | | | / Holloway, > by Deutsch and LINED TYPSET for CTSS and Nelson > Butler Lampson for PDP-6 by Jerry Saltzer ? | | > / \ | | | ? | | > / \ | PDP-7/9 editor | ? DEC | > QED, * QED | | ? TECO | > as published for CTSS | ????????????????|??? | > in CACM by Ken Thompson | ?? | ITS > | | | ? ED (and EDL, EDA, EDB) TECO > | | STOPGAP for CTSS / | > | QED for PDP-10 | / / > | for Multics by Bill Weiher | / | > | by Ken Thompson | edit | | > | / \ SOS for Multics | | > | / \ for PDP-10 by Charles Garman | | > | qedx QED by Steve | ___/ | > | for Multics for GCOS Savitzky | / EMACS > | by Dennis Ritchie ? edm / in TECO > | / \ ? for Multics / by RMS et al. > QUIDS / \ ? / / | | > by George Coulouris * ed \ ? _____/ / | | > et al. for PDP-7 Unix \ ? / / | | > | by Ken Thompson | ? | / | | | FRED for Gcos by Peter Fraser The Fred editor is still used with Gcos-8 today. http://www.thinkage.ca/expl/fred/expl.html Note that the Unix "ed", is/was considerably stripped down from the functionality available in Gcos QED. Much of what done on Unix with awk/sed/sh/perl was done on Gcos with QED, and now Fred. ###### From: John Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:28:36 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3A12E3E4.425DF3B@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A12CE48.FAC4F99E@thinkage.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@dhcp-171-68-135-37.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 58 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68670 "Alan T. Bowler" wrote: > Eric Fischer wrote: > > > > Joachim Pense wrote: > > > > > And, finally, what is the historical relation of qed(x)/ted to the Unix zoo > > > of editors (ed/ex/vi/sed...)? > > > > What appears below looks dangerously Mentifex-like, but I assure you > > it is actually supposed to represent a vi-centric family tree of editors. > > Links that I can't prove but want to believe are shown as question marks. > > > > There are undoubtedly errors and omissions, so if anyone can correct any > > of these I would appreciate it. > | ? \_ \ | / _/ CTSS TECO > by > > QED ? \_ \ | / / / Greenblatt, > > for Berkeley SDS-940 ? \ \ | | | / Holloway, > > by Deutsch and LINED TYPSET for CTSS and Nelson > > Butler Lampson for PDP-6 by Jerry Saltzer ? | | > > / \ | | | ? | | > > / \ | PDP-7/9 editor | ? DEC | > > QED, * QED | | ? TECO | > > as published for CTSS | ????????????????|??? | > > in CACM by Ken Thompson | ?? | ITS > > | | | ? ED (and EDL, EDA, EDB) TECO > > | | STOPGAP for CTSS / | > > | QED for PDP-10 | / / > > | for Multics by Bill Weiher | / | > > | by Ken Thompson | edit | | > > | / \ SOS for Multics | | > > | / \ for PDP-10 by Charles Garman | | > > | qedx QED by Steve | ___/ | > > | for Multics for GCOS Savitzky | / EMACS > > | by Dennis Ritchie ? edm / in TECO > > | / \ ? for Multics / by RMS et al. > > QUIDS / \ ? / / | | > > by George Coulouris * ed \ ? _____/ / | | > > et al. for PDP-7 Unix \ ? / / | | > > | by Ken Thompson | ? | / | | > | > FRED > for Gcos > by Peter Fraser What happened to all the ones like Eine - Eine is not Emacs Zwei - Zwei was Emacs initially ;) et seq??? JKA -- The Republic will endure. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:59:14 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8uupui$ba2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A12CE48.FAC4F99E@thinkage.ca> <3A12E3E4.425DF3B@cisco.com> X-Trace: /D3KDpnSEUFZMUncWxRBQmQUWzX+YyCIawwlsVosfkw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 2000 19:59:14 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68663 John Ahlstrom wrote: > What happened to all the ones like > Eine - Eine is not Emacs > Zwei - Zwei was Emacs initially ;) > et seq??? Well, I admitted it was vi-centric... Jamie Zawinski has a family tree of Emacs versions at http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html and he's done a better job of it than I possibly could. eric ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:19:27 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3A12FDDF.2ADCD607@multicians.org> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 04.36.29.1c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 15 Nov 2000 21:18:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68702 Nice diagram. I think though that the relation between TYPSET and ED on CTSS is wrong. As I remember, ED came first. It edited "card image" files like those edited by INPUT and EDIT. Several people worked on ED and I think Charlie Garman took over maintenance. Then "line marked" files were invented: these had a control word with -1 in the left half and a byte count in the right preceding each line, and trailing blanks trimmed. TYPSET files were linemarked 12-bit character set files. EDL was the same code as TYPSET but edited 6-bit character files. EDL and TYPSET did not implement some of the fancier commands of ED. EDA had the same command set but edited ASCII stream files with 7-bit ASCII right justified in 9-bit bytes and lines delimited by NL characters. TYPSET, EDL, EDA were by Saltzer. Noel Morris might have done EDB, using Saltzer's libraries. These were all copy-and-swap file editors. Multics "edit" was a first attempt: I think it was never used, too big, slow, and buggy. "edm" was like EDA rewritten in EPL. Very simple, minimal features, meant to be fast: I think it had a copy-and-swap philosophy including a "top" command but it's been so long I forget. qedx for Multics was written by Robert C. Daley. It was a moving-gap editor. ###### Message-ID: <3A133244.C7573FB2@shore.net> From: John W Gintell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A12CE48.FAC4F99E@thinkage.ca> <3A12E3E4.425DF3B@cisco.com> <8uupui$ba2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:03:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.18.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 974336581 24.147.18.26 (Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:03:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:03:01 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68757 Eric Fischer wrote:?? > > Well, I admitted it was vi-centric... Jamie Zawinski has a family tree > of Emacs versions at > > http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html > > and he's done a better job of it than I possibly could. > > eric I think what was most signficant is that Bernie started implementing Multics emacs after RMS had started implementing emacs for ITS but long before it was done and certainly before other versions were created. As ITS emacs evolved, so did Multics emacs. Bernie pushed the MCS people into supporting character echoing (probably has a more elegant name that I have forgotten). This was a significant change in the evolution of Multics from teletype style terminals to so-called glass TTYs. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: 16 Nov 2000 06:58:35 GMT Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8v00ir$i04$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <3A12E3E4.425DF3B@cisco.com> <8uupui$ba2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A133244.C7573FB2@shore.net> X-Trace: cF1JjZ6GKmO+aezZT7CU6OS7iL+oATY9p54KEnqhZbc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2000 06:58:35 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68691 John W Gintell wrote: > Bernie pushed the MCS people into supporting character echoing (probably > has a more elegant name that I have forgotten). "Echo negotiation" is the term the Multics Technical Bulletins use. eric ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: 16 Nov 2000 07:09:06 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8v016i$jkm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A12FDDF.2ADCD607@multicians.org> X-Trace: mcWtxKTJVuz4PF2XYMTkglKl4vt3CjMZMbxq0r9RXqU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2000 07:09:06 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68700 Tom Van Vleck wrote: > Nice diagram. I think though that the relation between > TYPSET and ED on CTSS is wrong. Thanks! It would seem to make more sense that way, but the second edition of The Compatible Time Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide seems to indicate otherwise. In section AH.3.02, about ED, it says that "the command is based on TYPSET... and many of the conventions of TYPSET are used by ED." And section AH.9.01, about TYPSET, credits the program's many inspirations, but does not mention ED. The dates of the original reports documenting the programs give further evidence. TYPSET is number 193, November 6, 1964, and ED is number 195, November 20, 1964. Thanks for the additional information about the other editors in the family. Would you happen to know how eds (the editor whose source code is printed in the Multics manual as an example) fits in with the others? eric ###### From: "Robert A. Matern" Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:42:13 -0500 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8v02qg$4v9$1@sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.190.224.225 X-Trace: sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 974360208 5097 129.190.224.225 (16 Nov 2000 07:36:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2000 07:36:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68707 Jim Falksen wrote the TED editor for Multics, but I've forgotten (or never knew) what its heritage was... Jim was unhappy with the choices available at the time, that much I know. -- +----------------------------------------+ | Robert A. Matern - - ACS Defense, Inc. | | SMMTT Program - NUWC - Newport, RI USA | | MAILTO:Robert_A_Matern@Compuserve.Com -| | MAILTO:rmatern@acsdefense.com - - - - -| | MAILTO:tool@Matern.ORG - - - - - - - - | +----------------------------------------+ ###### From: karger@nospam.watson.ibm.com (karger) Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: 16 Nov 2000 15:57:34 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8v105e$t6a$1@news.btv.ibm.com> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A12FDDF.2ADCD607@multicians.org> <8v016i$jkm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: watpub1.watson.ibm.com X-Trace: news.btv.ibm.com 974390254 29898 9.2.104.21 (16 Nov 2000 15:57:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@btv.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2000 15:57:34 GMT X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Originator: karger@watson.ibm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uunet!sea.uu.net!sac.uu.net!fox.almaden.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news.btv.ibm.com!karger Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68693 In article <8v016i$jkm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, Eric Fischer writes: |> |> Thanks for the additional information about the other editors in |> the family. Would you happen to know how eds (the editor whose |> source code is printed in the Multics manual as an example) fits |> in with the others? |> eds was a subset of edm that was written by Jerry Saltzer to serve as a working example of how to write Multics PL/I system-type code and to show how simple it was to write a text editor when you have a single-level file store with files (segments) directly mappable. I don't recall if he wrote it primarily for classroom purposes or primarily for an example in the manual. It was definitely a functional editor. When I was working on Multics at the Air Force's Electronic Systems Division, one project we were doing was to experiment with word processing for the secretarial staff. They would prepare memos, tech reports, etc. on Multics using a text editor and runoff. Initially, we taught the secretaries to use eds, because the command set was smaller than other editors, and therefore was easier to learn. Remember that at this time (early 1970s), almost all typing was done on typewriters, and using a computer for secretarial tasks was a very radical idea. Later, as a secretary became more comfortable with using a computer, we taught them edm or qedx. ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:59:11 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3A14044F.7B138AC4@multicians.org> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8v02qg$4v9$1@sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 04.36.29.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 16 Nov 2000 15:57:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68696 Robert A. Matern wrote: > > Jim Falksen wrote the TED editor for Multics, > but I've forgotten (or never knew) what its heritage was... TED was a greatly enhanced qedx. The story I remember was that there were various proposals for editor enhancement in the mid 70s. The qedx editor was pretty good for interactive editing on a printing terminal, but its programmability was less than that of TECO, if you can imagine such a thing. (Typing \bx would insert the contents of buffer x. Doing this at command level would execute buffer x as commands. If a regexp search in a buffer failed, the buffer interpretation would exit. That's it. I think it was Joe Ossanna who programmed tic-tac-toe in QED.) The arguments over what editor features to adopt and what the ultimate editor interface should be were taking a lot of time, and Charlie Clingen issued an edict, the only case of management intervention in the design process I can remember, that there would be no more official work on editor design. A few folks, Bernie and Jim among them, continued to think about editors and to build tools for their own use and to share with others. This was acceptable. TED had a number of nice features and a few that were sort of half-done, or not as general as they could be, or ... you see how easy it is to get sucked into editor design, and matters of taste. So the folks that liked TED used it, and it was put in the "author maintained" library, and found its way to sites other than System M, CISL, and MIT. But it was not an official part of the system, and system maintenance macros could not use TED features. I think TED became part of the system and was added to the "tools" library in 1981. While all this was going on, video terminals were replacing printing terminals, and line speeds were rising from 300 baud max to 2400, 9600, and on up, and Bernie was working on Emacs, which was a much better editor for that environment. ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:10:50 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3A140709.E79B1E73@multicians.org> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A12FDDF.2ADCD607@multicians.org> <8v016i$jkm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 04.36.29.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 16 Nov 2000 16:09:22 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68695 Eric Fischer wrote: > It would seem to make more sense that way, but the second edition > of The Compatible Time Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide seems > to indicate otherwise. In section AH.3.02, about ED, it says that > "the command is based on TYPSET... and many of the conventions of > TYPSET are used by ED." And section AH.9.01, about TYPSET, credits > the program's many inspirations, but does not mention ED. > > The dates of the original reports documenting the programs give > further evidence. TYPSET is number 193, November 6, 1964, and > ED is number 195, November 20, 1964. I stand corrected. A few weeks' difference in report dates may not indicate much more than who wrote up his program first, but the CTSS manual is definitive. > > Thanks for the additional information about the other editors in > the family. Would you happen to know how eds (the editor whose > source code is printed in the Multics manual as an example) fits > in with the others? I think eds was a drastically pruned version of edm, with all the complexity and speedups pruned out for clarity. ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.os.multics,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: emacs and other editors Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:20:27 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3A14094B.2D8FC835@multicians.org> References: <8us3tv$jdm$00$1@news.t-online.com> <8utbrm$apg$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 04.36.29.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 16 Nov 2000 16:20:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68699 There were, of course, other trees in the editor forest. The WYLBUR/ORVYL line that originated at Stanford had a different approach to line editing. DTSS started with a simple line-numbered file where you could only replace whole lines, insert new ones by using interpolated line nubmers, and renumber if you ran out of interpolation room. Then I think there was a single-line-fix command added, and then a context editor, but I don't remember the details. CMS EDIT was an ED/EDL descendant. Stu Madnick may have been the original creator. What did TSS/360 use for an editor?