From: baruchel@libertysurf.france (Thomas Baruchel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Line editors
Date: 5 Nov 2000 20:49:48 GMT
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net>
Reply-To: baruchel arrobas libertysurf point fr
NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-213-36-103-104.ppp.libertysurf.fr
X-Trace: news5.isdnet.net 973457388 87554 213.36.103.104 (5 Nov 2000 20:49:48 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@isdnet.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 2000 20:49:48 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!isdnet!isdnethub!baruchel
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67538

Brest, le dimanche 5 novembre

Hi, working on unix (well, linux in fact) I wonder what are the various
line editors still available for the unix world. I have:
- ed
- ex
- ule
- sam (can be a line editor)
What else is still available ? Whar are the best ones according to your
opinion ? I read the famous Bill Joy's interview about VI, where he speaks
about 'em' (editor for mortals, no more available). I downloaded the first page
of the manual of 'em' (scanned into gif picture), and saw that 'em' had an
original feature (well... original for a line editor): the open mode wich
allowed the user to really *edit* one line (you could move around the cursor in
the old line to change it, etc.) Most of the line editors don't have this
feature: either you change the line by re-typing it completely with changes or
you change it without seeing it from a prompt with some substitute command.
Do you know other line editors with this feature ?

Please, I don't read this newsgroup because I already read many others. Could
you be kind enough to send a copy of your answers at my own adress:

                        /***************************/
                        /* baruchel@libertysurf.fr */
                        /***************************/

-- 
   .~.   Thomas Baruchel
   /V\   baruchel@libertysurf.fr
  // \\    Brest
 /(   )\   FRANCE
  ^`~'^

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 00 10:32:29 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
X-Trace: tiPwkQGqFJUKQTC7+v7Ori6qtrUNvCM6p48UbVoJ088=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2000 11:33:17 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-28
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67706

In article <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
   Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>Thomas Baruchel <baruchel arrobas libertysurf point fr> wrote:
<snip>

>In the interests of completeness I should also mention the MS-DOS
>EDLIN editor and the PDP-10 SOS editor, both also line editors that
>allow character-oriented editing within a single line.

<spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 6 Nov 2000 07:55:50 GMT
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net>
X-Trace: 27MrFrzRWxmV6dynQkgs7H4rRJiJYcYp0rbA0L2xI0o=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Nov 2000 07:55:50 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67522

Thomas Baruchel <baruchel arrobas libertysurf point fr> wrote:

> I downloaded the first page of the manual of 'em' (scanned into gif
> picture), and saw that 'em' had an original feature (well... original
> for a line editor): the open mode wich allowed the user to really
> *edit* one line (you could move around the cursor in the old line to
> change it, etc.) Most of the line editors don't have this feature:
> either you change the line by re-typing it completely with changes or
> you change it without seeing it from a prompt with some substitute
> command.   Do you know other line editors with this feature ?

The earliest line editor that I know of with something akin to em's
open mode is Arthur Samuel's EDITS (aka CTEST9) for the Compatible
Time Sharing System.  Here is the relevant section of its manual,
dated June 30, 1964.

  Corrections in the Peek Mode
  ----------------------------

  After a peek line has appeared, the user may choose any desired
  non-numerical character as a ditto mark including blank (excluding
  certain obvious ones with overriding system significance and, of
  course, omitting those characters which are themselves to be
  inserted).  This choice of ditto (and it can differ from line
  to line) is communicated to the program by typing the character
  6 times in a row under the line number and terminating blank
  (which are always assumed to be correct).  Thereafter, the
  ditto character is typed under each character that is to be
  retained.
  
  Single character corrections are made simply by interrupting
  the stream of dittos to type the desired correct character under
  the one to be replaced.
  
  Deletions are made by typing a left parenthesis ( under the
  character to be deleted (with the obvious mnemonic meaning that
  the line is to be moved to the left with the indicated character
  deleted.)
  
  Insertions are made by typing a right parenthesis ) under the
  first good character after the break where the insertion is to
  be made (meaning move this character to the right) and then by
  typing the desired character or characters which are to be
  inserted, terminating the insertion by the ditto character.
  It should be noted that for n insertions, at least n+2 good
  characters must exist in sequence after the insertion since
  the insertion mark and insertion characters act as dittos
  as far as n+1 characters are concerned, and there must always
  be a terminating ditto.  This causes no trouble since it is
  always possible to replace erroneous characters one by one
  by typing in corrected information until a string of good
  characters are encountered or in extreme cases until the
  end of the line.
  
  It should be noted that the use of the parentheses as delete
  and insert marks does not prevent one from inserting parentheses
  in the text; )( means insert left parenthesis, and )) means
  insert right parenthesis.  Parentheses cannot, however, be
  directly substituted for existing characters.
  
  For many programs the period is a very convenient ditto mark.
  Except for some slight difficulties with line-up, the space bar
  (blank character) may also be used.  This is particularly useful
  for inserting a location symbol (where typing can cease as soon
  as the location is inserted), for single character corrections
  and for adding comments to an otherwise correct line.  It should
  be noted that the carriage return automatically fills the rest
  of the correction line with blanks.  This arrangement alleviates
  the need for typing beyond the correction point when the blank
  is used as the ditto.  It can also be employed with advantage
  to truncate a line, when using some other character as the ditto.
  
  The tab key should not be used in a correction line.  If time can
  be saved by using the tab key, it is only necessary to leave the
  peek mode by retyping the line number followed by the desired data.
  
  It is also poor practice to use the system backspace and character-
  delete keys in the correction line as this causes the comparison
  lines to get out of step.  When errors are made in typing the
  correction line the simplest procedure is to use the line-delete
  key (to delete the correction line) then to type the line number
  with a period (to ask for the line over again) before giving a
  carriage return.  Of course, if it is decided that the line was
  correct after all, it is only necessary to type the line-delete
  character and give a carriage return.

Back on the subject of "em," you may be interested to know that its
open mode was mostly inherited from an earlier QED-derived editor
cowritten by George Coulouris and described in "The Design and
Implementation of an Interactive Document Editor," Software --
Practice and Experience, vol. 6, pp. 271-279, 1976.

Em, as you know, begat ex/vi, which, as you may not know, in its
first version allowed character-by-character editing only within
single lines rather than on a screen-oriented basis as in later
versions.  (Actually, ex only seems to have been inspired by em,
rather than sharing any actual code (beyond the ed core) with it.)

The original QED (L. Peter Deutsch and Butler Lampson, "An Online
Editor," CACM, vol. 10, no. 12, December, 1967) also includes an
interline editor in a completely different spirit.  The most
interesting thing about it, from my perspective, is that the
authors don't seem to have the vocabulary to talk about editing
within a line.  The editing operations are familiar -- move left,
move right, delete characters, etc. -- but it's phrased in terms
of skipping and copying instead, which maybe makes more sense if
you're used to punch cards.

In the interests of completeness I should also mention the MS-DOS
EDLIN editor and the PDP-10 SOS editor, both also line editors that
allow character-oriented editing within a single line.

eric

######

From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 6 Nov 2000 16:31:51 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <8u6mdn$846$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67565

In article <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net>,
Thomas Baruchel <baruchel arrobas libertysurf point fr> wrote:
[ Posted AND mailed ]

>Hi, working on unix (well, linux in fact) I wonder what are the various
>line editors still available for the unix world. I have:
>- ed
>- ex
>- ule
>- sam (can be a line editor)
>What else is still available ?

NE, the C re-implementation of an editor that used to run on the Phoenix, 
Cambridge's IBM mainframe, has a line-by-line mode:

draco:~$ ne -line /etc/passwd
NE version 1.27/0.17 (10-Dec-1999)
1.
root:x:0:1:Super-User:/:/sbin/sh

NE's full documentation is at 
<URL:ftp://ftp.cus.cam.ac.uk/pub/software/programs/NE/NE.spec.ascii>.

>original feature (well... original for a line editor): the open mode wich
>allowed the user to really *edit* one line (you could move around the cursor in
>the old line to change it, etc.) Most of the line editors don't have this
>feature: either you change the line by re-typing it completely with changes or
>you change it without seeing it from a prompt with some substitute command.
>Do you know other line editors with this feature ?

In NE, there are single-character commands to move the insertion point, 
change case and delete characters, so one can do (from the spec):

99.
the quoick BROWN ffox
~>>>>>#>>>>$$$$$>#
99.
The quick brown fox
               >

I'm not sure if there's a convenient way to do insertion in the current 
line, but I expect there is.

-- 
Ben Harris
Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service.
  If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce.

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 6 Nov 2000 21:20:26 GMT
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <8u77aq$fsm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A073349.97AB2D20@ev1.net>
X-Trace: ked7MJ+0O3Xh1VTIXfCUUNCamyX0MLiNPngObEpHJvQ=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Nov 2000 21:20:26 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67540

Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:

> > In the interests of completeness I should also mention the MS-DOS
> > EDLIN editor and the PDP-10 SOS editor, both also line editors that
> > allow character-oriented editing within a single line.
> 
> This facility to edit characters within a single line was pirated for
> MS Basic in the Radio Shack Color Computer and in Basic-A for the PC...
> I do *not* know if it is present in GW-Basic...but I suspect it is...

The SOS editing interface shows up in several Microsoft products
other than Color Computer BASIC, too.  I think it was first seen
in their 8080 Extended BASIC, and then in an editor for CP/M that
was essentially a complete clone of SOS.  I think GWBASIC, though,
dropped the SOS-like EDIT command for one that used arrow keys
and control characters.

eric

######

Message-ID: <3A073349.97AB2D20@ev1.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:40:09 -0800
From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
To: baruchel@libertysurf.france
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-39.ev1.net
X-Trace: 6 Nov 2000 14:36:17 -0600, taydal-207-55-153-39.ev1.net
Lines: 31
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net!taydal-207-55-153-39.ev1.net
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67645

Eric Fischer wrote:
> 
>      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]
> 
> The original QED (L. Peter Deutsch and Butler Lampson, "An Online
> Editor," CACM, vol. 10, no. 12, December, 1967) also includes an
> interline editor in a completely different spirit.  The most
> interesting thing about it, from my perspective, is that the
> authors don't seem to have the vocabulary to talk about editing
> within a line.  The editing operations are familiar -- move left,
> move right, delete characters, etc. -- but it's phrased in terms
> of skipping and copying instead, which maybe makes more sense if
> you're used to punch cards.
> 
I seem to remember that Butler Lampson used some then-new spiffy
string search algorithm to speed up finding strings in this editor...
anyone remember what that was???  (Boyer-Moore???)
>
> In the interests of completeness I should also mention the MS-DOS
> EDLIN editor and the PDP-10 SOS editor, both also line editors that
> allow character-oriented editing within a single line.
> 
This facility to edit characters within a single line was pirated for
MS Basic in the Radio Shack Color Computer and in Basic-A for the PC...
I do *not* know if it is present in GW-Basic...but I suspect it is...


-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A073349.97AB2D20@ev1.net> <8u77aq$fsm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Organization: Daedalus Consulting
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes)
Message-ID: <973559883.331832@shelley.paradise.net.nz>
Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz
X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/)
Lines: 7
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 01:18:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26
X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz
X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 973559884 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:18:04 NZDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:18:04 NZDT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67733

Eric Fischer  <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>The SOS editing interface shows up in several Microsoft products

Does this make them the grand-children of Stopgap?  Should we call them
GCOS editors?  Or waould that be *too* confusing?  8-)

-- don

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 7 Nov 2000 01:25:53 GMT
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <8u7ln1$4il$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <3A073349.97AB2D20@ev1.net> <8u77aq$fsm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <973559883.331832@shelley.paradise.net.nz>
X-Trace: MJLPbVZJqCuRSXYmrPwnEPMizT3xREv6H6mPj/Ofm98=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2000 01:25:53 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67703

Don Stokes <don@news.daedalus.co.nz> quotes me:

> >The SOS editing interface shows up in several Microsoft products
> 
> Does this make them the grand-children of Stopgap?  Should we call them
> GCOS editors?  Or waould that be *too* confusing?  8-)

Something like that...  But what's the GCOS connection?  I didn't
realize the family tree branched in that direction.

eric

######

From: benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk (Ben Clifford)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:54:15 +0000
Organization: benZone
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <slrn90fgpn.g3d.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net>
Reply-To: benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-183.louisiana.dialup.pol.co.uk
X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 973597269 5467 62.137.69.183 (7 Nov 2000 11:41:09 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2000 11:41:09 GMT
X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!benc
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67691

On 5 Nov 2000 20:49:48 GMT, Thomas Baruchel <baruchel@libertysurf.france> wrote:

>original feature (well... original for a line editor): the open mode wich
>allowed the user to really *edit* one line (you could move around the cursor in
>the old line to change it, etc.) Most of the line editors don't have this
>feature: either you change the line by re-typing it completely with changes or
>you change it without seeing it from a prompt with some substitute command.
>Do you know other line editors with this feature ?

I think EDLIN under old versions of MS/PC-DOS allowed you to do this:
start editing a line, press F1 to auto-type the next char, F3 to auto-type
the whole of the rest of the line.
Not quite as sexy as moving back and forth with the cursor, but still 
quite nice.

Shame they got rid of it in later versions - its always something I am
tempted to write in a "modern" language so that I can have it 
everywhere. Unforunately, Java's console handling is not up to it!

--
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/c0deZ/globeApplet/ for my rotating world map applet
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/benc_key.txt GPG key 0x30F06950 - please use it!
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ my homepage

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u77aq$fsm$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <973559883.331832@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8u7ln1$4il$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Organization: Daedalus Consulting
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes)
Message-ID: <973592338.40536@shelley.paradise.net.nz>
Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz
X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/)
Lines: 15
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:18:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26
X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz
X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 973592339 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:18:59 NZDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:18:59 NZDT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67732

In article <8u7ln1$4il$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
Eric Fischer  <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>Don Stokes <don@news.daedalus.co.nz> quotes me:
>
>> >The SOS editing interface shows up in several Microsoft products
>> 
>> Does this make them the grand-children of Stopgap?  Should we call them
>> GCOS editors?  Or waould that be *too* confusing?  8-)
>
>Something like that...  But what's the GCOS connection?  I didn't
>realize the family tree branched in that direction.

Grand Child[ren] Of Stopgap.  <sigh>

-- don

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 00 13:50:47 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <8ubpa0$pss$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <gvci0t8ildldbl7bup9hu6rsp18bst2gpb@4ax.com>
X-Trace: UtRB4q+a4PwWSJ+wqDo2ag1t4+VF76Q6zHoG6FSI/SY=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 14:51:44 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-135
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67841

In article <gvci0t8ildldbl7bup9hu6rsp18bst2gpb@4ax.com>,
   Arargh! <Arargh@Enteract.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Nov 00 10:32:29 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>><spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
>>MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
>>with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.

>No matter what you call it, it was a horrible editor.  IMO. :-)

Oh, of course it is.  Why do think we stopped supporting it?

Anyway, any editor that doesn't allow me to insert a carriage
return or a line feed as a single character sucks.

And any editor that leaves more information within the file
than I typed in should have its executable pulled.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 00 13:46:54 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <8ubp2o$pss$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A08AFF0.BEA1629E@ev1.net>
X-Trace: etbd7xJKpIxvX4FGnwDx3+HPm3DmA/RPa7xKio7xyMw=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 14:47:52 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-135
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67848

In article <3A08AFF0.BEA1629E@ev1.net>,
   Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
>>    Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >Thomas Baruchel <baruchel arrobas libertysurf point fr> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> 
>> >In the interests of completeness I should also mention the MS-DOS
>> >EDLIN editor and the PDP-10 SOS editor, both also line editors that
>> >allow character-oriented editing within a single line.
>> 
>> <spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
>> MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
>> with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.
>> 
>It's one of the hallmarks of Micro$loth's "innovations"...copy
>what someone else has already done...
>
Without citation.  DEC shipped others' stuff.  But we left
the citations in.  Or rather, I should say, we did until
we started changing to Digital-mode.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: "Henry Churchyard" <churchh@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 7 Nov 2000 17:20:25 -0600
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <8ua2np$l5o@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: moe.cc.utexas.edu
X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 973639176 5240 128.83.42.2 (7 Nov 2000 23:19:36 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@cc.utexas.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2000 23:19:36 GMT
X-Face: #O!B,S1Ez(T##W$f`}BIPR<(7B_Kb*R^`A]0!UTex^Vz&bKso8|LZKD1ZGGKl%(K%.H`&
        zY:olOCo^cwkY-twSfiB%Tj9ZH_|z|P*AMq=9s{B8R}:rzJLZRIYC@Q@b>UH\L.NNy*Q
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!xmission!news.cc.utah.edu!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!moe.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67840

In article <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:

> MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped with
> TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.

Hey, you can download EDLIN for MS-DOS 6.22 at:

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q117/6/00.asp


;-)


--%!PS
10 10 scale/M{rmoveto}def/R{rlineto}def 12 45 moveto 0 5 R 4 -1 M 5.5 0 R
currentpoint 3 sub 3 90 0 arcn 0 -6 R 7.54 10.28 M 2.7067 -9.28 R -5.6333
2 setlinewidth 0 R 9.8867 8 M 7 0 R 0 -9 R -6 4 M 0 -4 R stroke showpage
  % Henry Churchyard    churchh@usa.net    http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/

######

From: "Henry Churchyard" <churchh@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 7 Nov 2000 17:40:23 -0600
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <8ua3t7$si0@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <slrn90fgpn.g3d.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: moe.cc.utexas.edu
X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 973640374 5799 128.83.42.2 (7 Nov 2000 23:39:34 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@cc.utexas.edu
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 2000 23:39:34 GMT
X-Face: #O!B,S1Ez(T##W$f`}BIPR<(7B_Kb*R^`A]0!UTex^Vz&bKso8|LZKD1ZGGKl%(K%.H`&
        zY:olOCo^cwkY-twSfiB%Tj9ZH_|z|P*AMq=9s{B8R}:rzJLZRIYC@Q@b>UH\L.NNy*Q
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!moe.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67837

In article <slrn90fgpn.g3d.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk>,
Ben Clifford <benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> I think EDLIN under old versions of MS/PC-DOS allowed you to do
> this: start editing a line, press F1 to auto-type the next char, F3
> to auto-type the whole of the rest of the line.  Not quite as sexy
> as moving back and forth with the cursor, but still quite nice.
> Shame they got rid of it in later versions

Don't know about different versions of EDLIN (I very rarely used it),
but the standard MS-DOS "line buffer" interface has as active keys:
left arrow or F1 = display next char in buffer, F3 = display all
remaining characters in buffer, F5 = display whole buffer and go to
beginning of next line, F6 = output Ctrl-Z, etc. (you can still see
this if you open a DOS box in Win 95/98 without DOSKEY loaded).  I
still use this in DOS boxes, but I was never excessively fond of it --
I prefer the interface of the old CED/PCED program (after which DOSKEY
was modelled), or the interface of the Unix "tcsh" shell...

--
Henry Churchyard   churchh@usa.net   http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/

######

Message-ID: <3A08AFF0.BEA1629E@ev1.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:44:17 -0800
From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-193.ev1.net
X-Trace: 7 Nov 2000 17:41:00 -0600, taydal-207-55-144-193.ev1.net
Lines: 22
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.msen.com!nntp1.savvis.net!nntp2.savvis.net!newsa.ev1.net!taydal-207-55-144-193.ev1.net
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67796

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
>    Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
> >Thomas Baruchel <baruchel arrobas libertysurf point fr> wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> >In the interests of completeness I should also mention the MS-DOS
> >EDLIN editor and the PDP-10 SOS editor, both also line editors that
> >allow character-oriented editing within a single line.
> 
> <spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
> MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
> with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.
> 
It's one of the hallmarks of Micro$loth's "innovations"...copy
what someone else has already done...

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 8 Nov 2000 07:40:21 GMT
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
X-Trace: UtzmDcsSPFt4QrDkbXj7p4jYaKQrujfpdvkOpZEb/To=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 07:40:21 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67836

JMFBAH <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:

> <spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
> MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
> with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.

I respectfully disagree.  I don't think any similarity between
the two programs is anything more than coincidence.  For comparison,
here are the commands accepted by the two:

                            EDLIN                          LINED
  read lines into memory    [n] A
  copy lines                [n],[m],x[,y] C
  delete lines              [n][,m] D                      D n[,m]
  edit line                 N
  save and exit             E                              E
  insert lines              [n] I                          I n[,m]
  list lines                [n][,m] L                      P n[,m]
  move lines                [n,][+]m,x M
  print a screenful         P
  quit without saving       Q
  replace string            [n][,m][?] R text ^Z text2
  search for string         [n][,m][?] S text
  insert from a file        [n] T file
  write lines to disk       [n] W
  select file to edit                                      S file

Yes, they both use I to mean Insert and D to mean Delete, but I
think that is just from the mnemonic significance, not from a
shared ancestry.  Only the "E" command gives me any reason to
believe that the two programs might possibly be related.

Microsoft *did* produce a program that was nearly a clone of
LINED's offspring SOS -- but that program was EDIT-80, not EDLIN.

eric

######

From: benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk (Ben Clifford)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:45:19 +0000
Organization: benZone
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <slrn90j0ov.hu5.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <slrn90fgpn.g3d.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk> <8ua3t7$si0@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
Reply-To: benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3.golden-cleaner.dialup.pol.co.uk
X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 973707084 25457 62.137.19.3 (8 Nov 2000 18:11:24 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 18:11:24 GMT
X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!benc
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67817

On 7 Nov 2000 17:40:23 -0600, Henry Churchyard <churchh@usa.net> wrote:

>Don't know about different versions of EDLIN (I very rarely used it),
>but the standard MS-DOS "line buffer" interface has as active keys:
>left arrow or F1 = display next char in buffer, F3 = display all
>remaining characters in buffer, F5 = display whole buffer and go to
>beginning of next line, F6 = output Ctrl-Z, etc. (you can still see

Sounds pretty EDLIN to me.

>this if you open a DOS box in Win 95/98 without DOSKEY loaded).  I

I know. It catches me out every time when I move back to COMMAND.COM
from CMD.EXE or bash.

--
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/c0deZ/globeApplet/ for my rotating world map applet
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/benc_key.txt GPG key 0x30F06950 - please use it!
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ my homepage

######

From: benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk (Ben Clifford)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:46:51 +0000
Organization: benZone
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <slrn90j0rr.hu5.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
Reply-To: benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3.golden-cleaner.dialup.pol.co.uk
X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 973707085 25457 62.137.19.3 (8 Nov 2000 18:11:25 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 18:11:25 GMT
X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!benc
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67816

On Tue, 07 Nov 00 10:32:29 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:

><spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
>MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
>with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.

Thats because everybody wants to copy Microsoft's original creative genius.

-- (I got the the right way round, didn't I?)
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/c0deZ/globeApplet/ for my rotating world map applet
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/benc_key.txt GPG key 0x30F06950 - please use it!
http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ my homepage

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 8 Nov 2000 18:39:30 GMT
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <8uc6l2$80t$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A08AFF0.BEA1629E@ev1.net> <8ubp2o$pss$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
X-Trace: vrMfvz/hF5E0svyX+GsOkngXiMKmac2yzaqEZqZRf0w=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 18:39:30 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67834

jmfbahciv@aol.com quotes Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> quoting JMFBAH:

> > > <spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
> > > MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
> > > with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.
> > 
> > It's one of the hallmarks of Micro$loth's "innovations"...copy
> > what someone else has already done...

I've already said elsewhere in this thread that I don't believe EDLIN
is a clone of LINED.  If it is, though, then it was Tim Paterson who
cloned it, not Microsoft, which just inherited it along with the rest
of MS-DOS.  And if it is a clone, regardless of who was responsible,
shouldn't we applaud the decision to preserve a familiar user interface
rather than inventing a new one just to be different?

> Without citation.  DEC shipped others' stuff.  But we left
> the citations in.  Or rather, I should say, we did until
> we started changing to Digital-mode.  

The DEC manual for the PDP-7 editor does give credit to CTSS's ED as
its inspiration.  But the manuals for the standard PDP-4 and PDP-5/8
editors don't seem to say where the ideas for those programs came for,
nor do the manuals for LINED and DEC TECO.  Maybe the credits are in
the source code, but I don't have that to look at.

eric

######

From: Arargh! <Arargh@Enteract.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 05:08:27 -0600
Organization: Arargh!!
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <gvci0t8ildldbl7bup9hu6rsp18bst2gpb@4ax.com>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: jmEVQOW4+BcjmiXZwF9MmWrCWQAvexNkobdJHlqoVkg=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 11:07:00 GMT
X-Newsreader:  Forte Agent 1.8/32.548
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67807

On Tue, 07 Nov 00 10:32:29 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
><spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
>MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
>with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.
No matter what you call it, it was a horrible editor.  IMO. :-)

 --
Arargh (at enteract dot com)    http://www.arargh.com

######

Message-ID: <3A09E1E2.CE5E0874@ev1.net>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:29:37 -0800
From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A073349.97AB2D20@ev1.net> <xknitpywp16.fsf@tahkokari.cs.Helsinki.FI>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-144-232.ev1.net
X-Trace: 8 Nov 2000 15:25:45 -0600, taydal-207-55-144-232.ev1.net
Lines: 50
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net!taydal-207-55-144-232.ev1.net
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67913

Janne Rinta-Manty wrote:
> 
> Charles Richmond 2000-11-06T22:40:09Z:
> > Eric Fischer wrote:
> >>
> >> The original QED (L. Peter Deutsch and Butler Lampson, "An Online
> >> Editor," CACM, vol. 10, no. 12, December, 1967) also includes an
> >> interline editor in a completely different spirit.
> 
> > I seem to remember that Butler Lampson used some then-new spiffy
> > string search algorithm to speed up finding strings in this
> > editor...  anyone remember what that was???  (Boyer-Moore???)
> 
> According to
> <URL:http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/best-ideas/string-searching/>,
> Boyer & Moore invented their algorithm "in about 1975" (and their CACM
> article appeared in 1977). Also, I couldn't (quickly) find any
> references to string search algorithms in the article of Deutsch and
> Lampson. Maybe it was in some later version?
> 
Okay, so I did a WEB search and came up with a Dennis Ritchie WEB page
of his notes on the implementation of QED:

	<http://netlib.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/qeddoc.html>

Here is an excerpt from that page describing the search algorithm used
by QED:

------------

The most unusual feature of QED is its use of regular expressions. The method
used is basically that described by its inventor, K. L. Thompson, in his 
article "Regular Expression Search Algorithm" (Communications of the ACM,
Vol. 11, Number 6, June, 1968). Several improvements and extensions of that
algorithm have been made, some by Thompson, some by the author, so the entire
scheme will be described. 

-------------

And he goes on to describe how regular expressions are used in searches
in the
QED editor. IMHO the description shows optimizations that were done with the
regular expression searches.

Was QED the first editor to use regular expression searching???

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:22:30 -0700
Organization: Systematic Software
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <sb9k0tgu0otrcng0hml2b4nec577ujb20r@4ax.com>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <slrn90fgpn.g3d.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk> <8ua3t7$si0@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-138-49.dial.cadvision.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 973750958 19946 207.148.138.49 (9 Nov 2000 06:22:38 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:22:38 +0000 (UTC)
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67914

On 7 Nov 2000 17:40:23 -0600, "Henry Churchyard"
<churchh@usa.net> wrote:

>In article <slrn90fgpn.g3d.benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk>,
>Ben Clifford <benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I think EDLIN under old versions of MS/PC-DOS allowed you to do
>> this: start editing a line, press F1 to auto-type the next char, F3
>> to auto-type the whole of the rest of the line.  Not quite as sexy
>> as moving back and forth with the cursor, but still quite nice.
>> Shame they got rid of it in later versions
>
>Don't know about different versions of EDLIN (I very rarely used it),
>but the standard MS-DOS "line buffer" interface has as active keys:
>left arrow or F1 = display next char in buffer, F3 = display all
>remaining characters in buffer, F5 = display whole buffer and go to
>beginning of next line, F6 = output Ctrl-Z, etc. (you can still see
>this if you open a DOS box in Win 95/98 without DOSKEY loaded).  I
>still use this in DOS boxes, but I was never excessively fond of it --
>I prefer the interface of the old CED/PCED program (after which DOSKEY
>was modelled), or the interface of the Unix "tcsh" shell...

EDLIN and DEBUG used the DOS GETLINE call with the above
commands, plus you forgot: 
F2 = skip to before next character typed
F4 = delete to before next character typed
F7 = insert nul character (^@)
and it's been in all versions of DOS since 2.0 through
7.0/Win4/95B at least (IIRC F7 added in DOS 5). No experience
with DOS1/Win98/ME so cannot comment. 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 9 Nov 2000 06:53:53 GMT
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <8udhm1$bln$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <3A073349.97AB2D20@ev1.net> <xknitpywp16.fsf@tahkokari.cs.Helsinki.FI> <3A09E1E2.CE5E0874@ev1.net>
X-Trace: 4o1tRVxZSUNjdFFeAboM1SUM1S1UzZuRLwsAdK8dBYM=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Nov 2000 06:53:53 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67876

Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:

> Was QED the first editor to use regular expression searching???

Something similar appeared in Victor Yngve's experimental editor for
the Compatible Time Sharing System, VEDIT.  It included this command:

   CHANGE X TO Y:  The pattern X is searched for in the rule
      in CURRENT and replaced by the pattern Y.  The number of
      spaces in pattern X are of no consequence.  You may
      ignore hyphenation -- don't mention it in either X or Y
      since it is taken care of automatically.

My knowledge of the COMIT programming language is minimal, but I
am under the impression that it had fairly impressive pattern
matching and manipulation capabilities and that VEDIT's CHANGE
command provided a direct interactive interface to these.

Unfortunately the sample run (dated 7/24/64) that Dr. Yngve
kindly copied for me only uses the CHANGE command to substitute
literal text, so I have no direct evidence that it was capable of
anything more elaborate.  The sample session, which must make
more sense if you know how to use COMIT than it does to me,
goes like this:

  THEN PRINT BLOCK
         COM
  * $ = THIS-IS-A-SAMPLE-RULE-TO-BE-READ-IN-BY-THE-NEW-EDIT-PROGRAM-AND-E-
  EDITED.--AND IF EVERYTHING WORKS.*.  *
  END

  FIND *
  CHANGE .*. TO ,-IT "-WILL-BE-SURPRISING.*.//WAL1
  PRINT
  * $ = THIS-IS-A-SAMPLE-RULE-TO-BE-READ-IN-BY-THE-NEW-EDIT-PROGRAM-AND-E-
  EDITED.--AND IF EVERYTHING WORKS,-IT-WILL-BE-SURPRISING.*.//WAL1-
  THEN OK
  PRINT BLOCK
  THE BLOCK IS EMPTY.

eric

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 00 15:09:07 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <8uei92$aa7$10@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
X-Trace: UQOqiE/BukZhHCyEIQ0vcf/a6QFEIE+G3EvqMDEXGFY=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Nov 2000 16:10:10 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-33
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67988

In article <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
   Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>JMFBAH <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> <spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
>> MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
>> with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.
>
>I respectfully disagree.  

OK.  I'll have to go find the phone book.  I certainly do
remember having a deja vu' experience when I edited, or
rather tried to edit, a file on my DOS machine.  I'm too
pooped at the moment to find it.


>I don't think any similarity between
>the two programs is anything more than coincidence.  For comparison,
>here are the commands accepted by the two:
>
>                            EDLIN                          LINED
>  read lines into memory    [n] A
>  copy lines                [n],[m],x[,y] C
>  delete lines              [n][,m] D                      D n[,m]
>  edit line                 N
>  save and exit             E                              E
>  insert lines              [n] I                          I n[,m]
>  list lines                [n][,m] L                      P n[,m]
>  move lines                [n,][+]m,x M
>  print a screenful         P
>  quit without saving       Q
>  replace string            [n][,m][?] R text ^Z text2
>  search for string         [n][,m][?] S text
>  insert from a file        [n] T file
>  write lines to disk       [n] W
>  select file to edit                                      S file
>
>Yes, they both use I to mean Insert and D to mean Delete, but I
>think that is just from the mnemonic significance, not from a
>shared ancestry.  Only the "E" command gives me any reason to
>believe that the two programs might possibly be related.
>
>Microsoft *did* produce a program that was nearly a clone of
>LINED's offspring SOS -- but that program was EDIT-80, not EDLIN.

I didn't think SOS came from LINED.  We got it from <mumble,grumble>
swoosh!  there goes that little tidbit of information.

I don't think I ever took LINED off the tapes but I'm finding that
I can't seem to remember very well these days.  Tim's site has
some of the stuff.  Look for any flavor of TOPS-10 Customer
Supported Tape.  Some of the stuff may be on the Tools tape.
I always included the sources for that stuff because we were
trying to give the customer as much help as possible without
committing to support.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 00 13:33:20 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <8uh11r$lga$3@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
 <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uei92$aa7$10@bob.news.rcn.net> <7OGO5.60$M51.41795@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
X-Trace: HzO5/rw5axotUR4X/aEXi6TpSHivqaUJ07OwRvv75BA=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 14:34:35 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-184
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67990

In article <7OGO5.60$M51.41795@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
   Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>>I didn't think SOS came from LINED.  We got it from <mumble,grumble>
>>swoosh!  there goes that little tidbit of information.
>
>SOS was written at Stanford and came to C-MU with Stanford people in 1969.
>I don't know how it got to DEC.  It may have come in 
>with TENEX, but that's
>just a guess.  It probably didn't.  I think the only 
>TOPS-20 internals work
>I did was to add support to strip line numbers and page marks when reading
>files in ASCII mode.  (Line numbers were five characters, page marks were
>something like ^M^M^L^M^M, both with bit 35 turned on.)

I hated that.  When I ask for stuff in a file, I don't want some
random programmer to decide that I need "extra" stuff. :-)
>
>>I don't think I ever took LINED off the tapes but I'm finding that
>>I can't seem to remember very well these days.
>
>I think you can be forgiven for not remembering about LINED.

<grin>  It was my job to remember stuff.  Before I got this
creeping crud, I could remember stuff.  I can't begin to 
describe how frustrating it is to have a retrieval mechanism
that has no reliable ECC.  :-) And, now that it's clear
a lot of the TOPS-10 stuff that I very carefully is gone, 
my malfunctioning brain is about
the only thing left in this world that has the info.


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 00 15:11:51 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <8ueie6$aa7$11@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A08AFF0.BEA1629E@ev1.net> <8ubp2o$pss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uc6l2$80t$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
X-Trace: yJVQqj1SoM4eGft6GV1RTtPHoXUAkagMqOIYJ8plE24=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Nov 2000 16:12:54 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-33
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68000

In article <8uc6l2$80t$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
   Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com quotes Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> quoting 
JMFBAH:
>
>> > > <spit>  In the interestes of correctness I should mention that
>> > > MS-DOS EDLIN editor has the same commands as the editor shipped
>> > > with TOPS-10...only DEC called it LINED.
>> > 
>> > It's one of the hallmarks of Micro$loth's "innovations"...copy
>> > what someone else has already done...
>
>I've already said elsewhere in this thread that I don't believe EDLIN
>is a clone of LINED.  If it is, though, then it was Tim Paterson who
>cloned it, not Microsoft, which just inherited it along with the rest
>of MS-DOS.  And if it is a clone, regardless of who was responsible,
>shouldn't we applaud the decision to preserve a familiar user interface
>rather than inventing a new one just to be different?
>
>> Without citation.  DEC shipped others' stuff.  But we left
>> the citations in.  Or rather, I should say, we did until
>> we started changing to Digital-mode.  
>
>The DEC manual for the PDP-7 editor does give credit to CTSS's ED as
>its inspiration.  But the manuals for the standard PDP-4 and PDP-5/8
>editors don't seem to say where the ideas for those programs came for,
>nor do the manuals for LINED and DEC TECO.  Maybe the credits are in
>the source code, but I don't have that to look at.

We wouldn't have put that kind of information in the manuals.
There wasn't any reason for it to be in the kind of manuals
we produced.

It would be in the edit history.  We strongly frowned upon
subsequent programmers deleting previous programmers' commentary
in the edit history because it was usually the only clue we
had about intent :-).

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 00 13:40:46 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <8uh1fp$lga$4@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8ubp2o$pss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uc6l2$80t$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ueie6$aa7$11@bob.news.rcn.net> <mgbfu8.vv.ln@shakazulu.wizzy.com>
X-Trace: 4LmuoF6I4vJKlMUv6BIMd0hyZWfEQusshVpA2g7SskU=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 14:42:01 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-184
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68006

In article <mgbfu8.vv.ln@shakazulu.wizzy.com>,
   Andy Rabagliati <andyr@wizzy.com> wrote:
>According to  <jmfbahciv@aol.com>:
>> 
>> It would be in the edit history.  We strongly frowned upon
>> subsequent programmers deleting previous programmers' commentary
>> in the edit history because it was usually the only clue we
>> had about intent :-).
>
>Expand, send mail ?

Huh?  I'll take as guess at what you meant.  I don't have
access to the web.  Thus I don't have access to any sources
that may be on-line.  Tim has a pretty good setup (with
the exception of the implied information that becomes missing
when SFDs aren't included in the directories).
Look for SOSX.MAC or SOS???.*. 

I just read the first n lines that Eric (I think) just posted.
Take a look at that one and it'll tell you some stuff.  I
certainly don't remember Ryder making changes but that may
have happened before I started working for the System #40
operations group.

I was one of the guinea pigs who was forced to fucking load
test that editor.  And the purpose was not to load test the
code.  The purpose was to reduce core usage by the System #40
users because that system was trying to service double its
capacity.

Oh, there are stories behind that.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 00 13:46:36 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <8uh1qo$lga$5@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uei92$aa7$10@bob.news.rcn.net> <7OGO5.60$M51.41795@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <8uftb1$jhq$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
X-Trace: PI5FalZI0KNKYNwRcNeTi3Bi74kEoBuKkzgLqASn2BM=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 14:47:52 GMT
X-Newsreader:  News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-184
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68010

In article <8uftb1$jhq$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,
   Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:
>Ric Werme  <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> quotes jmfbahciv@aol.com:
>
>> >I didn't think SOS came from LINED.  We got it from <mumble,grumble>
>
>I didn't mean to suggest that the two necessarily shared code.
>But SOS's commands and syntax are a superset of LINED's, which
>is why I consider them to be related.
>
>> SOS was written at Stanford and came to C-MU with Stanford people in 
1969.
>> I don't know how it got to DEC.
>
>On the community-memory mailing list, Les Earnest described its
>origin this way:
>
>: When we started SAIL in 1966 we didn't yet have any displays and
>: needed a decent text editor for the teletypes we were using.  The only
>: text editor that came with the PDP-6 system was TECO, whose principal
>: feature was that it provided many ways to destroy a file with a single
>: errant keystroke.
>: 
>: Bill Weiher, who was one of our grad students, whomped up a more
>: friendly line-oriented text editor in a few days and appropriately
>: named it STOPGAP.  Sometime later another student, Steve Savitzky,
>: improved it a bit and renamed it SOS (for Son Of Stopgap).  SOS was
>: distributed widely and became the stardard text editor on DEC-10 and
>: -20 systems in the early 1970s.  (Bill Weiher later went to Tymshare
>: and played a central role in creating Tymnet.)
>
>I wrote to Steve Savitzky about a year and a half ago, and he told
>me that the additions he made to STOPGAP, turning it into SOS, were
>paragraph justification and search ranges.
>
>As for how it got to DEC, the copy I have says this in the comments
>at the beginning:
>
>00100   TITLE   EDITS V13(20)   A MODIFIED VERSION OF THE STOPGAP EDITOR
>00200   SUBTTL  COMMENTS AND MODIFICATION HISTORY
>00300   ;       W.WEIHER/RG/JBS/AVR/RB/11-OCT-71
>00400   
>00500   ;TEMPORARY EDITOR FOR THE DISK--WORKS BY RECOPYING
>00600   
>00700   ;THIS MEMBER OF THE STOPGAP CLAN WAS ADAPTED FROM THE VERSION
>00800   ;RUNNING AT SANDERS ASSOCIATES IN NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE AND
>00900   ;TURNED OVER TO DEC AS PART OF AN AGREEMENT.  THE MODIFICATIONS

I wonder what that agreement was....and with whom.

>01000   ;MADE BY GORIN AND SAUTER WERE DONE AT SANDERS.  MANY OF THE MODS
>01100   ;MADE BY RYDER AT DEC BENEFITTED FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH BOTH
>01200   ;GORIN AND SAUTER.  

That's Al Ryder.  He was some flavor of manager of the PDP-10
group (that was in the days when it all was in one group, including
languages).  We didn't get foisted with SOS on System #40 until
way after that.

>01300   
>01400   ;THIS VERSION (13,,21  JANUARY 26,1973) HAS BEEN RUNNING ON 
>01500   ;DEC'S SYSTEM #40 IN HEAVY PRODUCTION FOR OVER A YEAR.

Oh, and did I hate that.  The only reason that editor got on
the system is because some idiot thought that the system
was getting slowed down by our (Tape Prep) editing.  Yeah, right.
It had nothing to do with the whole dianostic group doing
their assemblies on the system.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Andy Rabagliati <andyr@wizzy.com>
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8ubp2o$pss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uc6l2$80t$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ueie6$aa7$11@bob.news.rcn.net>
Organization: Wizzy
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator: andyr@shakazulu.UUCP ((null))
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:20:54 +0200
Message-ID: <mgbfu8.vv.ln@shakazulu.wizzy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nld-dial-196-7-200-78.mweb.co.za
X-Trace: 10 Nov 2000 06:25:11 +0200, nld-dial-196-7-200-78.mweb.co.za
Lines: 10
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!iafrica.com!news1.mweb.co.za!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68090

According to  <jmfbahciv@aol.com>:
> 
> It would be in the edit history.  We strongly frowned upon
> subsequent programmers deleting previous programmers' commentary
> in the edit history because it was usually the only clue we
> had about intent :-).

Expand, send mail ?

Cheers,    Andy!

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8u5o66$ekf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
     <8u8p9t$5sk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uei92$aa7$10@bob.news.rcn.net>
From: Ric Werme <werme@nospam.mediaone.net>
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <7OGO5.60$M51.41795@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:53:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32
X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net
X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 973814019 24.91.12.32 (Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:53:39 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:53:39 EST
Organization: Road Runner
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.91.0.34!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68098

jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

>I didn't think SOS came from LINED.  We got it from <mumble,grumble>
>swoosh!  there goes that little tidbit of information.

SOS was written at Stanford and came to C-MU with Stanford people in 1969.
I don't know how it got to DEC.  It may have come in with TENEX, but that's
just a guess.  It probably didn't.  I think the only TOPS-20 internals work
I did was to add support to strip line numbers and page marks when reading
files in ASCII mode.  (Line numbers were five characters, page marks were
something like ^M^M^L^M^M, both with bit 35 turned on.)

>I don't think I ever took LINED off the tapes but I'm finding that
>I can't seem to remember very well these days.

I think you can be forgiven for not remembering about LINED.
--
Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete
             Vote www.harrybrowne.com for President!

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Line editors
Date: 10 Nov 2000 04:25:05 GMT
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <8uftb1$jhq$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <8u4h5c$2lg2$1@news5.isdnet.net> <8ub015$cvq$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8uei92$aa7$10@bob.news.rcn.net> <7OGO5.60$M51.41795@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
X-Trace: iMGhlL+PZRux8DzPR6uIMCRO02DfgEXBMI7JWHw05jc=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 04:25:05 GMT
X-Newsreader:  trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999)
Originator:  enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer)
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:68008

Ric Werme  <werme@nospam.mediaone.net> quotes jmfbahciv@aol.com:

> >I didn't think SOS came from LINED.  We got it from <mumble,grumble>

I didn't mean to suggest that the two necessarily shared code.
But SOS's commands and syntax are a superset of LINED's, which
is why I consider them to be related.

> SOS was written at Stanford and came to C-MU with Stanford people in 1969.
> I don't know how it got to DEC.

On the community-memory mailing list, Les Earnest described its
origin this way:

: When we started SAIL in 1966 we didn't yet have any displays and
: needed a decent text editor for the teletypes we were using.  The only
: text editor that came with the PDP-6 system was TECO, whose principal
: feature was that it provided many ways to destroy a file with a single
: errant keystroke.
: 
: Bill Weiher, who was one of our grad students, whomped up a more
: friendly line-oriented text editor in a few days and appropriately
: named it STOPGAP.  Sometime later another student, Steve Savitzky,
: improved it a bit and renamed it SOS (for Son Of Stopgap).  SOS was
: distributed widely and became the stardard text editor on DEC-10 and
: -20 systems in the early 1970s.  (Bill Weiher later went to Tymshare
: and played a central role in creating Tymnet.)

I wrote to Steve Savitzky about a year and a half ago, and he told
me that the additions he made to STOPGAP, turning it into SOS, were
paragraph justification and search ranges.

As for how it got to DEC, the copy I have says this in the comments
at the beginning:

00100   TITLE   EDITS V13(20)   A MODIFIED VERSION OF THE STOPGAP EDITOR
00200   SUBTTL  COMMENTS AND MODIFICATION HISTORY
00300   ;       W.WEIHER/RG/JBS/AVR/RB/11-OCT-71
00400   
00500   ;TEMPORARY EDITOR FOR THE DISK--WORKS BY RECOPYING
00600   
00700   ;THIS MEMBER OF THE STOPGAP CLAN WAS ADAPTED FROM THE VERSION
00800   ;RUNNING AT SANDERS ASSOCIATES IN NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE AND
00900   ;TURNED OVER TO DEC AS PART OF AN AGREEMENT.  THE MODIFICATIONS
01000   ;MADE BY GORIN AND SAUTER WERE DONE AT SANDERS.  MANY OF THE MODS
01100   ;MADE BY RYDER AT DEC BENEFITTED FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH BOTH
01200   ;GORIN AND SAUTER.  
01300   
01400   ;THIS VERSION (13,,21  JANUARY 26,1973) HAS BEEN RUNNING ON 
01500   ;DEC'S SYSTEM #40 IN HEAVY PRODUCTION FOR OVER A YEAR.

eric