From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: First video terminal? Date: 24 Oct 2000 05:27:51 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-3.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 972365271 86385 207.229.143.42 (24 Oct 2000 05:27:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 05:27:51 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66688 Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the February, 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an 80x12 display) but this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have been preceded by VT01 and VT02). eric ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 09:44:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8t6lae$e21$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <8t4ema$2s8@moe.cc.utexas.edu> X-Trace: bi2fdRrAvAZe2I6Vj3nBTNLERmQF9jVdO4CiPNlCWeE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:56:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66733 In article <8t4ema$2s8@moe.cc.utexas.edu>, "Henry Churchyard" wrote: >In article <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com>, Edward Green wrote: >> Eric Fischer wrote: > >>> Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean >>> the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal >>> rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the >>> February, 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an >>> 80x12 display) but this probably wasn't the first (if only because >>> it should have been preceded by VT01 and VT02). > >> I managed to glean that the first DEC video terminal (I presume this >> means the first production model) was the VT05, which was >> essentially a "glass teletype", while the first terminal >> incorporating key features which the average schmoe of today would >> require in a "video terminal" was indeed the VT52, released "circa >> 1974", which would seem to be five years off, by your reference. > >Have no idea what the model number was, or whether they had cursor >control or not, but I do clearly remember that while the University of >California at Irvine mostly used standing teletypes (with punched tape >readers and writers) in 1972, there were also at least 6 or 8 green >screen terminals located in the computer room itself (hooked up to a >DEC PDP-10; The ones that had a green screen that were hooked up to our PDP-10 were called VT06s but DEC didn't make them. They were very expensive but were, IMO, the best terminals that ever existed. > ...I think you probably couldn't access the Xerox Sigma-7 -- >the other main timesharing computer at the University -- from these >video terminals). They wouldn't be if they were hardwired into the -10. Back in those days changing hosts involved sneaker power. > There was also exactly one very expensive >pixel-addressable light-pen sensitive screen, with a large vertical >rectangular CRT, which they were very protective of, since the pixels >could supposedly be burned out if you illuminated them brightly for a >sustained period of time (for ten years afterwards, I had some paper >tapes that contained the commands for drawing simple line drawings on >the light-pen screen, but those all got crinkled up due to carless >storage, then thrown away as useless, years ago...). And paper tapes seemed to acquire crinkles just by laying around. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 09:48:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8t6lhu$e21$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t5js6$ga$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: rmY+bGfNwNdDgZrZNd67UaBxRM+y2pL0dHPUto6B+Eg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2000 13:00:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66736 In article <8t5js6$ga$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, Eric Fischer wrote: >I wrote, > >> I see the February, 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 ... but >> this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have been >> preceded by VT01 and VT02). > >Eric Smith points out (in mail) that DEC's published history (Digital >at Work) and the time line at > > http://www.dec.com/timeline/1970-3.htm > >both say that the VT05 was the first video terminal manufactured by >the company and asks for more details. It was. Note the word manufactured. That means that a DEC-owned plant made them and didn't just hang a logo on another manufacturer's product. > ... So here is the complete text: >"News from DEC," DECUSCOPE, vol. 8, no. 2, 1969, p. 20. > >Seeing a feature set like this going for $7900 makes it easier to >understand why TV typewriters were considered so exciting a few >years later. I have no idea what that VT03 was. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: erg@panix.com (Edward Green) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 24 Oct 2000 07:44:54 GMT Organization: Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 972373494 4032 166.84.0.227 (24 Oct 2000 07:44:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 07:44:54 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Originator: erg@panix.com (Edward Green) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66668 Eric Fischer wrote: >Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean >the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal >rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the February, >1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an 80x12 display) >but this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have >been preceded by VT01 and VT02). Not to mention the VT52... On the theory that any fool with a web connection can become an instant expert via search engines, and had better at least emulate this activity if he wants to avoid the dreaded search engine police, I can now knowingly say... Have you seen these lovingly crafted web sites devoted to video terminal memorabilia? (Paul Williams) (Richard Shuford) By following some links therein I managed to learn that the first time sharing systems at MIT, in the period 1960-63 at least, used something called the Flexowriter, which was sort of a hot-wired IBM Selectric... maybe the typewriter derives from the terminal, not the other way around. So presumably during that period video terminals were still a gleam in their engineer's eye. By further reading in the second site, which not only contains more information about terminals than you probably want to know, but more, far more, than you could ever believe _existed_, I managed to glean that the first DEC video terminal (I presume this means the first production model) was the VT05, which was essentially a "glass teletype", while the first terminal incorporating key features which the average schmoe of today would require in a "video terminal" was indeed the VT52, released "circa 1974", which would seem to be five years off, by your reference. Further unverified reading suggests the VT52 was only officially "retired" by DEC in May of 1993. That product had legs, whatever its real intro date! You can find pictures of a VT50, VT50 and VT100 side by side at ; and by piecing together the mosaic, you can deduce that the thing on top of the VT50 is a "DECWriter IV". ###### From: David R Brooks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:34:49 +0800 Message-ID: <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.164.246 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 972376215 8835 203.59.164.246 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66718 erg@panix.com (Edward Green) wrote: ... :Have you seen these lovingly crafted web sites devoted to video :terminal memorabilia? : : (Paul Williams) : : (Richard Shuford) : :By following some links therein I managed to learn that the first :time sharing systems at MIT, in the period 1960-63 at least, used :something called the Flexowriter, which was sort of a hot-wired IBM :Selectric... maybe the typewriter derives from the terminal, not the :other way around. So presumably during that period video terminals :were still a gleam in their engineer's eye. Flexowriter was not a hot-wired Selectric. Made by Friden (later Singer-Friden). Unlike the Selectric (or for that matter, the Teletype), Flexowriter did not use a dancing ball/drum for the type. It derived from a classical manual typewriter, with a "basket" of type-levers. Beneath all this, was a "power roll", rather like a second platen, spun by the motor. Attached to each type-lever was a pivoting cam, with a serrated face. When tripped by a solenoid, the cam's serrations caught on the power-roll, which dragged it around, so firing the type-lever. It could be hooked up to two paper-tape stations (ie 2 readers & 2 punches), and could do some interesting things. One was to load one reader with an endless tape containing a letter, with the address, etc. replaced by special flags. The second reader was loaded with a tape of names & addresses. Yes indeed, an all-mechanical MailMerge! ###### From: erg@panix.com (Edward Green) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:38:36 GMT Organization: Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8t46tc$9u8$1@news.panix.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 972398316 10184 166.84.0.227 (24 Oct 2000 14:38:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:38:36 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Originator: erg@panix.com (Edward Green) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66664 David R Brooks wrote: > Flexowriter was not a hot-wired Selectric. Made by Friden (later >Singer-Friden). Sorry. I've been accused of sloppy reading before, and this time, my accusers would be right. I knew there was some early cross-connection between the typewriter and a terminal series, and late night posting sucked "Flexowriter" into this stew. I did enjoy the enjoy the period culture of how the coolest of the cool computer people had early terminals which weighed as much as a washing machine and cost as much as a Chevy hauled into their homes. As for "fully-mechanical mail merge", I was onboard a US sub in the mid-eighties which had been launched in '64, whose torpedo fire control computer was still fully mechanical, a distant cousin I suppose of WWII era fully mechanical battleship fire control computers. At the time I remember thinking the choice represented some kind of technical conservatism, but except for the fact that they had never been replaced, its sounds like at the time of launch they may have been state of the art. ###### From: erg@panix.com (Edward Green) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:46:59 GMT Organization: Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 6 Message-ID: <8t47d3$9vn$1@news.panix.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> <8t46tc$9u8$1@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 972398819 10231 166.84.0.227 (24 Oct 2000 14:46:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:46:59 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Originator: erg@panix.com (Edward Green) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66663 I wrote: >I did enjoy the enjoy the period culture of how the coolest of the... Heh... outsmarted the spell checker that time! Forget about repeated words; it didn't think to check for "phrase stutter", now _did_ it? :) ###### From: "Henry Churchyard" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 24 Oct 2000 11:51:22 -0500 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8t4ema$2s8@moe.cc.utexas.edu> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: moe.cc.utexas.edu X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 972406250 19101 128.83.42.2 (24 Oct 2000 16:50:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cc.utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 16:50:50 GMT X-Face: #O!B,S1Ez(T##W$f`}BIPR<(7B_Kb*R^`A]0!UTex^Vz&bKso8|LZKD1ZGGKl%(K%.H`& zY:olOCo^cwkY-twSfiB%Tj9ZH_|z|P*AMq=9s{B8R}:rzJLZRIYC@Q@b>UH\L.NNy*Q X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!moe.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66673 In article <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com>, Edward Green wrote: > Eric Fischer wrote: >> Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean >> the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal >> rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the >> February, 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an >> 80x12 display) but this probably wasn't the first (if only because >> it should have been preceded by VT01 and VT02). > I managed to glean that the first DEC video terminal (I presume this > means the first production model) was the VT05, which was > essentially a "glass teletype", while the first terminal > incorporating key features which the average schmoe of today would > require in a "video terminal" was indeed the VT52, released "circa > 1974", which would seem to be five years off, by your reference. Have no idea what the model number was, or whether they had cursor control or not, but I do clearly remember that while the University of California at Irvine mostly used standing teletypes (with punched tape readers and writers) in 1972, there were also at least 6 or 8 green screen terminals located in the computer room itself (hooked up to a DEC PDP-10; I think you probably couldn't access the Xerox Sigma-7 -- the other main timesharing computer at the University -- from these video terminals). There was also exactly one very expensive pixel-addressable light-pen sensitive screen, with a large vertical rectangular CRT, which they were very protective of, since the pixels could supposedly be burned out if you illuminated them brightly for a sustained period of time (for ten years afterwards, I had some paper tapes that contained the commands for drawing simple line drawings on the light-pen screen, but those all got crinkled up due to carless storage, then thrown away as useless, years ago...). -- Henry Churchyard churchh@usa.net http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/ ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 25 Oct 2000 03:25:58 GMT Lines: 59 Message-ID: <8t5js6$ga$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> X-Trace: LR706y7Tw5fL4XqLEuLKvqdMskPzeKtvrPRRbbou8OM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2000 03:25:58 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66729 I wrote, > I see the February, 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 ... but > this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have been > preceded by VT01 and VT02). Eric Smith points out (in mail) that DEC's published history (Digital at Work) and the time line at http://www.dec.com/timeline/1970-3.htm both say that the VT05 was the first video terminal manufactured by the company and asks for more details. So here is the complete text: KEYBOARD DISPLAY ADDED TO PDP-10 LINE A keyboard display terminal, providing quicker response in an interactive computing environment than is possible with tele- typewriter devices, has been added to the PDP-10 product line. The VT03 display console operates similarly to a conventional teleprinter and incorporates "carriage return" and "line feed" characters for position control. It is virtual noiseless and accepts data at the rate of 1200 baud as compared to a tele- printer rate of 110 baud. The full-duplex console features a local memory for display refreshing thus eliminating the demand on processor time usually required for this function. The VT03 display up to 960 char- acters arranged in 12 rows of 80 characters each. Among others, the display unit features an alphanumeric key- board, editing capability from the keyboard or computer, au- dible end-of-line and incoming message tones and plug-in boards for easy maintenance. The unit is priced at $7900. An interface option, priced at $300, is available which allows the user to generate hard copy remotely via standard Teletype devices. First deliveries of the new unit are scheduled for this summer. The VT03 keyboard display joins a comprehensive line of PDP-10 options which include, among other items, mass storage devices, card handling and line printing equipment, display and plotter systems and data communications equipment. More than 1.5 million console hours have been logged on PDP-10 systems in some 50 worldwide installations in such environments as commercial time-sharing, manufacturing, banking, un- versities and research. "News from DEC," DECUSCOPE, vol. 8, no. 2, 1969, p. 20. Seeing a feature set like this going for $7900 makes it easier to understand why TV typewriters were considered so exciting a few years later. eric ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 26 Oct 00 00:09:08 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1140.334T424T93701@sky.bus.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-928.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66792 In article werme@nospam.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) writes: >Probably not - most television sets of that era were still made with >vacuum tubes, anything transistorized used discreet transistors. Except for the very cheap and sleazy ones, which used indiscreet transistors. :-) >(The typical AM handheld radio was advertised as a "six transistor >radio".) I heard of some really cheap TRF sets that went as low as two transistors (at that level they'd make a big point of any additional diodes, e.g. in the detector), but you couldn't make a decent superhet with fewer than six transistors. But you could do a lot with a fraction of the electronics people take for granted these days. I remember staying up late at night listening to KSL in Salt Lake City, Utah come booming in to my little 6-transistor radio near Vancouver, B.C. My best was a brief break in the static long enough to identify WOWO in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Not bad for a little AM radio. (Short wave was a whole 'nother thing.) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Message-ID: <39F73862.B2960361@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:50:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 972503400 168.191.124.64 (Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:50:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:50:00 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66812 Eric Fischer wrote: > Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean > the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal > rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the February, > 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an 80x12 display) > but this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have > been preceded by VT01 and VT02). The first raster video terminal I saw was in 1970 at CMU. It was IIRC called "Infoton" or something like that. It displayed white characters on a black background. I came across them again in 73 or so at my first "real" job. I last saw one, still in use, in 94. IIRC they used a shift register memory. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:58:10 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 25 Message-ID: <39F77392.471A1FF2@prescienttech.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <39F73862.B2960361@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sNWud99yBeUoHlZY5TgZ0LOYQKIcbXfSQUUjtm9dEZE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2000 23:58:12 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66852 jchausler wrote: > > The first raster video terminal I saw was in 1970 at CMU. It was IIRC > called "Infoton" or something like that. It displayed white > characters on a black background. I came across them again in 73 > or so at my first "real" job. I last saw one, still in use, in 94. > IIRC they used a shift register memory. When I acquired my Nova 840 I had an opportunity to grab the original Infoton console; I still kick myself for not doing so - it's landfill now.... (The machine was purchased new in 1973, or close thereabouts.) I don't recall a shift-register memory on it, though, but am aware of some terminals that used delay-line (acoustic) memory for refresh purposes. My how time flies.... -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 30 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:03:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 972522207 24.91.12.32 (Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:03:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:03:27 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsie2.cent.net!spdcc!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66894 David R Brooks writes: >erg@panix.com (Edward Green) wrote: >:By following some links therein I managed to learn that the first >:time sharing systems at MIT, in the period 1960-63 at least, used >:something called the Flexowriter, which was sort of a hot-wired IBM >:Selectric... maybe the typewriter derives from the terminal, not the >:other way around. So presumably during that period video terminals >:were still a gleam in their engineer's eye. Probably not - most television sets of that era were still made with vacuum tubes, anything transistorized used discreet transistors. (The typical AM handheld radio was advertised as a "six transistor radio".) A 80x24 video terminal needs 2 KB of RAM, well, maybe it could have used SIXBIT, but still, 12 Kb of memory for a terminal! Much better of sticking with good old Teletypes Flexowriters. My father had a Packard-Bell 250 at work with a Flexowriter. I think they came together, but I'm not sure. Also 1962 timeframe. > Flexowriter was not a hot-wired Selectric. Worth saying twice! IBM did have some terminals that had Selectric guts, e.g. the 2741 and 1051? used as the console for various 360s. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete Vote www.harrybrowne.com for President! ###### From: Shez Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 02:16:29 +0100 Organization: the Last Stop Cafe Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> Reply-To: Shez NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 972522996 nnrp-13:2611 NO-IDENT xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 S Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!xerez.demon.co.uk!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66864 Edward Green writes: > the VT52 was only officially "retired" by DEC in >May of 1993. That product had legs, whatever its real intro date! That is incorrect, in fact it had small rubber feet. -Shez. -- ______________________________________________________ Hacker's Law: The belief that enhanced understanding will necessarily stir a nation to action is one of mankind's oldest illusions. ______________________________________________________ Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/ Use PGP: my key is at http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/p/Shez.asc ###### Message-ID: <39F7E2D8.2834E306@ev1.net> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:52:56 -0700 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-144-141.ev1.net X-Trace: 26 Oct 2000 00:49:03 -0500, taydal-144-141.ev1.net Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net!taydal-144-141.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66905 Ric Werme wrote: > > David R Brooks writes: > > >erg@panix.com (Edward Green) wrote: > > >:By following some links therein I managed to learn that the first > >:time sharing systems at MIT, in the period 1960-63 at least, used > >:something called the Flexowriter, which was sort of a hot-wired IBM > >:Selectric... maybe the typewriter derives from the terminal, not the > >:other way around. So presumably during that period video terminals > >:were still a gleam in their engineer's eye. > > Probably not - most television sets of that era were still made with > vacuum tubes, anything transistorized used discreet transistors. > (The typical AM handheld radio was advertised as a "six transistor radio".) > Well, I remember seeing some transistor radios (are they any other kind ;-) advertised as "eight transistor radio" or "ten transistor radio". The trick was...sure, they had eight (or ten) transistors, but only six transistors were actually wired into the circuit. The others were just soldered in as dead weight. Sounded good to the unwashed masses to have more transistors, though... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: nasadowsk@nospam.mail.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:32:21 -0400 Organization: Student/biker/metalhead from HELL!!! Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> <1140.334T424T93701@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: nIC+ucaZ/qQVN/EkzbEJllhifI112Z+8BVqNcAsDaC0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Oct 2000 17:32:22 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nasadowsk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66883 In article <1140.334T424T93701@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > But you could do a > lot with a fraction of the electronics people take for granted > these days. I've goty a nice collection of tube audio gear, mostly antique radios. From Long Island, NY, I can easily get Albany/Schenectedy NY, and I've gotten as far as Chicago, at night. All with a console Magnavox. Though it does have like 24 tubes in it (most are in the audio amp(s) actually). Still, it's quite a simple set, you don't really even need the schematic to fix it. ###### From: "The Bakers" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> Subject: Re: First video terminal? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:45:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.177.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 972603913 12.79.177.175 (Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:45:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:45:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66828 "Ric Werme" wrote in message news:zpLJ5.82$ml4.32760@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > > IBM did have some terminals that had Selectric > guts, e.g. the 2741 and 1051? used as the console for various 360s. I believe you are referring to the 1050. And of course, the IBM 1130 built-in console typewriter used a Selectric mechanism, which the IBM servicemen universally seemed to really enjoy repairing (NOT!). IIRC it was not the most reliable unit, and I often learned a few new cusswords from the fellow while he was trying to fix it. Not to mention some interesting observations on the parentage of the guy who designed it :-) Don't really remember what it was that made it so nasty to service....maybe its location in the system or tight clearances around some parts ? ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:05:32 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 11 Message-ID: <39FA265C.16A68634@multicians.org> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.d0.81.6e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Oct 2000 01:00:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66945 Edward Green wrote: > By following some links therein I managed to learn that the first > time sharing systems at MIT, in the period 1960-63 at least, used > something called the Flexowriter, which was sort of a hot-wired IBM > Selectric... maybe the typewriter derives from the terminal, not the > other way around. Not exactly. The Selectric came long after the Flexowriter. Flexowriters had regular electric typewriters with multiple typebars. They had many more moving parts than a Selectric and were much heavier and less reliable. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:15:59 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 22 Message-ID: <39FADF9F.59BDD8EA@prescienttech.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: OQfldkIAPqEy6X0q0FXcAhxKg5EZ8VJBRLErMgAcfQM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Oct 2000 14:16:03 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66958 Ric Werme wrote: > > My father had a Packard-Bell 250 at work with a Flexowriter. I think > they came together, but I'm not sure. Also 1962 timeframe. Yes, it came with the CPU. The 250s used a modified Flexowriter as the console. There were a couple of added switches to control the CPU that weren't on "standard issue" Flexos. > > Flexowriter was not a hot-wired Selectric. > > Worth saying twice! Too true. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: 30 Oct 2000 18:39:38 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8tkf9a$s1l$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> X-Trace: yBnCnHfjuz+lwt/Aqt4zXThY3tAwL4jllHoukl1ubSA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 2000 18:39:38 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67018 David R Brooks wrote: > Flexowriter was not a hot-wired Selectric. Made by Friden (later > Singer-Friden). As I understand it, the Flexowriter story goes something like this: The powered typewriter was invented around 1914 by John Smathers, who originally intended to run a series of typewriters off a single motor rather than having a separate electric motor in each. But his invention was developed by the Northeast Electric Co., which saw it as a good source of business for its electric motors. In 1925, Northeast and Remington made an electric Remington typewriter as a joint venture, but the deal fell apart because of Remington's inability to commit to any specific size of order from Northeast. Northeast then continued the development on its own, resulting in the Electromatic typewriter, and then around 1931 spun Electromatic off into a separate company. Electromatic then followed up with a second typewriter model, this one designed for stencil cutting, which introduced the "electric" keyboard layout, and an "automatic typewriter" that read an enormously wide paper tape (one hole per key, I think) to produce form letters. IBM then (in 1933) bought Electromatic and made it into its own typewriter division, but the automatic typewriter instead evidently went to Commercial Controls, Inc., which refined it into the Flexowriter. Commercial Controls was then bought out by Friden in the early 1960s, making them the owners of the Flexowriter. Eric ###### Message-ID: <39FE6C9D.863A7D53@cmc.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 22:54:21 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers To: David R Brooks Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 972975321 194 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67144 David R Brooks wrote: > Flexowriter was not a hot-wired Selectric. Made by Friden (later > Singer-Friden). Unlike the Selectric (or for that matter, the > Teletype), Flexowriter did not use a dancing ball/drum for the type. > It derived from a classical manual typewriter, with a "basket" of > type-levers. That depends on which model year you are talking about. Certainly, the FlexoWriters that my undergraduate programming class used in 1969 were golf-ball type. -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277 ###### From: "George Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> <8tkf9a$s1l$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: First video terminal? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 06:18:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.25.127.109 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.mn.mediaone.net 973059484 24.25.127.109 (Wed, 01 Nov 2000 00:18:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 00:18:04 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!cyclone.rdc-detw.rr.com!news.mw.mediaone.net!typhoon.mn.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67208 Another funny thing about the FlexoWriter-- it used some unusual screws. I took one apart some decades ago and save all the screws from it-- musta been 200 screws. Later on I tried using some of them, and they never seemed to fit anything. Not your typical 4-40, 6-32, threads at all. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <8t3elm$3u0$1@news.panix.com> <4khavssu439l8n8hdbqulq5tuip0n3iiji@4ax.com> <8tkf9a$s1l$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:45:06 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 973093514 129.85.24.56 (Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:45:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:45:14 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67211 On Wed, 01 Nov 2000 06:18:04 GMT, "George Gonzalez" wrote: >Another funny thing about the FlexoWriter-- it used some unusual screws. > >I took one apart some decades ago and save all the screws from it-- musta >been >200 screws. > >Later on I tried using some of them, and they never seemed to fit anything. >Not your typical >4-40, 6-32, threads at all. Weren't they just metric, as should be expected in European product? -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: "John Bowen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:18:30 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:71843 In 1959 I was an engineer on the IBM AN-FSQ 7 computer which cost about $25 million and performed Air Defense activities for the Air Force in the Nevada desert. The large CRTs we used to display tracks of aircraft, radar data and had a capability of displaying any of 64 characters from a matrix inside the tube. The data was intended to be placed next to vectors indicating flight information. However, as a maintenance engineer I wrote the software to actually make the tube a very interactive device from which we would run our diagnostics. It also had decent keyboard. I wrote one line at a time and moved everything up a line each time I wrote. There was room for about 64 lines as I recall. I just simulated a line printer and card reader for keyboard. My idea allowed us to run our diagnostics in half the time (4 hours instead of 8 hours) because we weren't printing on a the military version of the IBM 407 printer. My boss invented the Selectric Typewriter at the same time I was working on the display consoles. I just needed a good terminal and didn't realize other computers didn't have them. The SAGE was the only machine I had ever seen due to secrecy. We switched our giant classified mainframes to the Selectric after that which was a mistake because they were so unreliable. The 7030 Stretch for NSA and AEC (prior to DOE) is an example of that foolishness. I didn't see my back room engineering idea used again in IBM but we did a similar thing in 1966 while I was at RAND helping on the development of the RAND tablet. Yes, the guys in my department developed ARPANET. We never knew. John Bowen "Eric Fischer" wrote in message news:8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com... > Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean > the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal > rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the February, > 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an 80x12 display) > but this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have > been preceded by VT01 and VT02). > > eric ###### Message-ID: <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:52:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.252.49.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 978209554 158.252.49.68 (Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:52:34 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:52:34 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:71867 John Bowen wrote: > I was at RAND helping on the development of the RAND tablet. Yes, the guys > in my department developed ARPANET. We never knew. John Bowen Tell me more about the RAND tablet. I believe I used one back in the late 60's, probably 67 or 68, attached to a Philco display controller for a multi head stroke writing graphics system. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> From: John Ferrell Reply-To: johnferrell@sprintmail.com Organization: Dixie Competition Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 57 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:42:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.133.65.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 978291765 206.133.65.58 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:42:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:42:45 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:71953 I never felt the Selectric I/O writers were unreliable. The problem was that as soon as the programmers got a console printer they seemed determined to keep it active 100% of the time! I acquired a "defective" I/O writer from a 360/155 in 1979 and interfaced it to a Radio Shack TRS80-II. The hardware was just magnet drivers from the printer port. The software driver tailored the timings to the needs of each character in the mechanism. Of course it was slow but I ran it over night to get listings. The I/O writers would have been a lot easier to maintain if a little tweaking had been designed into the drivers. John Bowen wrote: > In 1959 I was an engineer on the IBM AN-FSQ 7 computer which cost about $25 > million and performed Air Defense activities for the Air Force in the Nevada > desert. The large CRTs we used to display tracks of aircraft, radar data and > had a capability of displaying any of 64 characters from a matrix inside the > tube. The data was intended to be placed next to vectors indicating flight > information. However, as a maintenance engineer I wrote the software to > actually make the tube a very interactive device from which we would run our > diagnostics. It also had decent keyboard. I wrote one line at a time and > moved everything up a line each time I wrote. There was room for about 64 > lines as I recall. I just simulated a line printer and card reader for > keyboard. My idea allowed us to run our diagnostics in half the time (4 > hours instead of 8 hours) because we weren't printing on a the military > version of the IBM 407 printer. My boss invented the Selectric Typewriter at > the same time I was working on the display consoles. I just needed a good > terminal and didn't realize other computers didn't have them. The SAGE was > the only machine I had ever seen due to secrecy. We switched our giant > classified mainframes to the Selectric after that which was a mistake > because they were so unreliable. The 7030 Stretch for NSA and AEC (prior to > DOE) is an example of that foolishness. I didn't see my back room > engineering idea used again in IBM but we did a similar thing in 1966 while > I was at RAND helping on the development of the RAND tablet. Yes, the guys > in my department developed ARPANET. We never knew. John Bowen > > "Eric Fischer" wrote in message > news:8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com... > > Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean > > the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal > > rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the February, > > 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an 80x12 display) > > but this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have > > been preceded by VT01 and VT02). > > > > eric -- John Ferrell in Julian NC, de W8CCW Dixie Competition Products 6241 Phillippi Rd Julian NC 27283 Phone: (336)685-9606 Fax: (336)685-9771 NSRCA 479 AMA 4190 "My Competition is Not My Enemy" ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:47:17 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <978299237snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 978323436 mail2news:26159 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:71980 In article <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> johnferrell@sprintmail.com "John Ferrell" writes: > I never felt the Selectric I/O writers were unreliable. The problem was that as > soon as the programmers got a console printer they seemed determined to keep it > active 100% of the time! > I first saw a Selectric "terminal" at the Business Efficiency Exhibition at Olympia (West London, for the benefit of those that have never been to the Ideal Home Show) in 1964. IBM had one on their stand, which ran 24h/d for the week of the exhib at a rate of 31 ch/s (ordinarily, Selectrics ran at 15.5 ch/s). It suffered no ill effects at all. IBM took that display back to their offices (at Chiswick) and continued to take it to other exhibitions. I visited an IBMer there in 1967 (Bob Latham, IIRC) and he showed me it still running, and assured me that it was kept permanently on even when not on display, except whilst being transported between venues. I believed him, as well. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> <978299237snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 75 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 19:06:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.229.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 978375961 199.174.229.179 (Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:06:01 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 11:06:01 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:71994 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > I first saw a Selectric "terminal" at the Business Efficiency Exhibition > at Olympia (West London, for the benefit of those that have never been to > the Ideal Home Show) in 1964. IBM had one on their stand, which ran > 24h/d for the week of the exhib at a rate of 31 ch/s (ordinarily, > Selectrics ran at 15.5 ch/s). It suffered no ill effects at all. about a year ago ... I finally got rid of the tabletop and paperfeed for my 2741. Standard 2741 terminal was something like a frame with a flat surface with the typerwriter body buried in the middle of the top with only a couple inches of "table" on each side (not enuf to hold paper or anything else). At CSC (4th floor, 545 tech sq, cambridge) had special 1/2"(?) laminated board with a cut-out the size of the typerwriter ... that laid on the top of the 2741 frame & wrapped around the typerwriter body with a couple inches on one side and 18"-24" on the other side and back ... providing enuf room to support paper feed tray in the back and papers to one side of the keyboard (the board could be flipped so the space was either to the left or the right of the keyboard). The paper-feed tray was like a wide in/out basket but large enuf to hold standard printer fan-fold paper ... bottom tray had room for about 6" stack of paper and return paper then would feed on to the top tray. I started out using standard green-bar fan-fold paper ... nominally reversed so it printed on the white-side. I haven't had a real 2741 at home in nearly 25 years ... but some how the the table top and paper tray made it into the garage and sat around gathering dust ... managing not to get thrown away even with 3-4 moves over the period (although i still have an "apl" golfball printing element). random 2741 refs: http://www.multicians.org/mga.html#2741 http://www.multicians.org/terminals.html http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#6 http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-05/0875.html http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/17/170.html http://www.totse.com/en/hack/understanding_the_internet/excerpt2.html http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/2260/gli_00.html http://www.enteract.com/~enf/afc/wp http://www-mice.cs.ucl.ac.uk/multimedia/misc/tcp_ip/8705.mm.www/0110.html http://www.unb.ca/web/transpo/mynet/mtx20.htm some photos http://www.nerdc.ufl.edu/info-services/history/nhp75A.jpg http://www.keysan.com/ksu0675.htm http://www.ibmtypewriters.com/reconselectric.htm following gives description of the CCN computing facility at UCLA in '71 (360/91kk, i/o configuriaton, 10 dail 2741 interfaces, etc) http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc90.txt note in the following "history of the internet in new brunswick", 110 baud was teletype speed and 134.? baud was the 2741 speed. the reference to "local" office connecting to "VM mainframe in Toronto" was a "HONE" clone. http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/laurie/internet.html random hone refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#62 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#75 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#14 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "John Bowen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 13:20:09 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 52 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72003 I surprised myself when I went to my favorite search engine, Google, and entered "rand tablet". I actually found some pictures and including one that seems like one of our original prototypes. The original was attached to the first IBM 360 that ever went to a customer. The customer being the RAND corporation and the time frame was May 1964. It was serial 10023 as I recall and we mechanically replaced it about two years later. I think I changed about 100 SLT cards that were defective in those two years. It also had the first 2311 disk drives, 2841 control unit, 2701, and probably the first 1442N1 and 1443N1 peripherals. The CRT used with the table came from Burroughs as I recall. Daniel Ellsberg kept his books in the vault next to the machine room. He sent copies of the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times and may have started the early retirement of Nixon. The 60s were an interesting time to be at the RAND Corporation. I spotted the commercial version of the RAND tablet in 1977 at Union Oil Geophysical in Los Angeles doing seismic map plotting. The pen had changed to a glass piece with a couple of buttons and a cross hair. I just don't recall who was manufacturing it. Bill Ellis was the RAND engineer who developed the tablet. The original had a pen with microswitch in it to detect pressure on the tip. Gabe Groner worked on algorithms to read printed words and Chinese. John Bowen "jchausler" wrote in message news:3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net... > > > John Bowen wrote: > > > I was at RAND helping on the development of the RAND tablet. Yes, the guys > > in my department developed ARPANET. We never knew. John Bowen > > Tell me more about the RAND tablet. I believe I used one back in the late 60's, > > probably 67 or 68, attached to a Philco display controller for a multi head > stroke writing graphics system. > > Chris > AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE > $$ > > ###### From: "John Bowen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 13:34:16 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 99 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72000 John, the Selectric was not too unreliable when used as a typewriter. But when you placed the early versions on a computer and really pounded on it none could last a week without breaking the tilt and rotate tapes or having mechanical problems. You would have a $20 million dollar 7030 Stretch or a ANFSQ-32 (SAGE II) sitting idle waiting for the Customer Engineer to make a repair that often lasted several hours. In the mid 1960s the version of the selectric used on big mainframes was a pretty poor choice. I was a glorified Customer Engineer (Senior Specialist) until 1971 and we all hated the machines compared to electronic equipment. I visited an FAA air traffic control site in 1986 and was surprised to see Selectrics still in use by them. They had a room full of broken ones. I purchased a small insurance company in 1983 and one of the first things I did was replace every Selectric with a PC and a matrix printer. That change and a little software quadrupled the productivity of most of the clerical people. John Bowen "John Ferrell" wrote in message news:3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com... > I never felt the Selectric I/O writers were unreliable. The problem was that as > soon as the programmers got a console printer they seemed determined to keep it > active 100% of the time! > > I acquired a "defective" I/O writer from a 360/155 in 1979 and interfaced it to > a Radio Shack TRS80-II. The hardware was just magnet drivers from the printer > port. The software driver tailored the timings to the needs of each character in > the mechanism. Of course it was slow but I ran it over night to get listings. > The I/O writers would have been a lot easier to maintain if a little tweaking > had been designed into the drivers. > > John Bowen wrote: > > > In 1959 I was an engineer on the IBM AN-FSQ 7 computer which cost about $25 > > million and performed Air Defense activities for the Air Force in the Nevada > > desert. The large CRTs we used to display tracks of aircraft, radar data and > > had a capability of displaying any of 64 characters from a matrix inside the > > tube. The data was intended to be placed next to vectors indicating flight > > information. However, as a maintenance engineer I wrote the software to > > actually make the tube a very interactive device from which we would run our > > diagnostics. It also had decent keyboard. I wrote one line at a time and > > moved everything up a line each time I wrote. There was room for about 64 > > lines as I recall. I just simulated a line printer and card reader for > > keyboard. My idea allowed us to run our diagnostics in half the time (4 > > hours instead of 8 hours) because we weren't printing on a the military > > version of the IBM 407 printer. My boss invented the Selectric Typewriter at > > the same time I was working on the display consoles. I just needed a good > > terminal and didn't realize other computers didn't have them. The SAGE was > > the only machine I had ever seen due to secrecy. We switched our giant > > classified mainframes to the Selectric after that which was a mistake > > because they were so unreliable. The 7030 Stretch for NSA and AEC (prior to > > DOE) is an example of that foolishness. I didn't see my back room > > engineering idea used again in IBM but we did a similar thing in 1966 while > > I was at RAND helping on the development of the RAND tablet. Yes, the guys > > in my department developed ARPANET. We never knew. John Bowen > > > > "Eric Fischer" wrote in message > > news:8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com... > > > Can anyone say what the first video terminal was? By this I mean > > > the first CRT device to act more or less like a printing terminal > > > rather than a point- or vector-plotting device. I see the February, > > > 1969 announcement of the Digital VT03 (at $7900 for an 80x12 display) > > > but this probably wasn't the first (if only because it should have > > > been preceded by VT01 and VT02). > > > > > > eric > > -- > John Ferrell in Julian NC, de W8CCW > Dixie Competition Products > 6241 Phillippi Rd > Julian NC 27283 > Phone: (336)685-9606 Fax: (336)685-9771 > NSRCA 479 AMA 4190 > "My Competition is Not My Enemy" > > ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 60 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 02:23:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.226.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 978402235 199.174.226.104 (Mon, 01 Jan 2001 18:23:55 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 18:23:55 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72020 "John Bowen" writes: > John, the Selectric was not too unreliable when used as a typewriter. But > when you placed the early versions on a computer and really pounded on it > none could last a week without breaking the tilt and rotate tapes or having > mechanical problems. You would have a $20 million dollar 7030 Stretch or a > ANFSQ-32 (SAGE II) sitting idle waiting for the Customer Engineer to make a > repair that often lasted several hours. In the mid 1960s the version of the > selectric used on big mainframes was a pretty poor choice. I was a glorified > Customer Engineer (Senior Specialist) until 1971 and we all hated the > machines compared to electronic equipment. I visited an FAA air traffic > control site in 1986 and was surprised to see Selectrics still in use by > them. They had a room full of broken ones. I purchased a small insurance > company in 1983 and one of the first things I did was replace every > Selectric with a PC and a matrix printer. That change and a little software > quadrupled the productivity of most of the clerical people. while the standard 360 console, 1052-7, may have been somewhat more rugged than early selectrics ... it still had the golfball tilt/rotate. I know that CSC kept a spare 1052-7 for the 360/67 ... rather than repairing ... swap the hardware and repair the broken one offline. It wasn't all because of the tilt/rotate ... there were some people that would slam their fist into the keyboard for one reason or another (especially if you had dedicated machine time over the weekend and had been up for 40+ hrs straight and there was a problem where the solution was difficult coming). once cp/67 was up and running enuf for production, it was less of a problem since CP supported logging on as the operator from the machine console or any available 2741 (some security was added to limit the definition of "any"). The 1052-7 had another "nasty" feature that periodically caught people. There was a small finger that sensed whether there was incoming paper to the carriage. Frequently there were two boxes behind the 1052-7, one to feed the 1052-7 carriage and the other was for output after it had been printed. The input/feed was underneath the output/printed and frequently couldn't be seen. More than once, the "finger" would sense that it had reached the end of paper and signal intervention required to the CPU. However there were no lights indicating the problem ... and OS/360 when it got an intervention required from the 1052-7 would ring the bell and stop all operations. There were numerous times where it took between 30minutes to 3hrs for somebody to realize that the reason that the system had apparently died was because the 1052-7 had run out of paper (since the input feed wasn't easily visable). In the early '80s, I wanted one of those Field Engineering briefcases which were actually fancy toolboxs. The first couple times I requested one, it was rejected because I wasn't in IBM field engineering. Finally, I found a generic part number for the briefcase where it could be ordered w/o having to ask IBM. It still came with a number of specialized tools that I had seen used for repairing 2741s, selectrics, 1052s, etc. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.22.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:00:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.147.85 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 978436845 193.203.147.85 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:00:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:00:45 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72068 John Bowen wrote, in : > I surprised myself when I went to my favorite search engine, Google, and > entered "rand tablet". I actually found some pictures and including one that > seems like one of our original prototypes. The original was attached to the > first IBM 360 that ever went to a customer. The customer being the RAND > corporation and the time frame was May 1964. It was serial 10023 as I recall > and we mechanically replaced it about two years later. I think I changed > about 100 SLT cards that were defective in those two years. It also had the > first 2311 disk drives, 2841 control unit, 2701, and probably the first > 1442N1 and 1443N1 peripherals. The CRT used with the table came from > Burroughs as I recall. I wonder how what was obviously by way of being a flagship system got lumbered with the thoroughly nasty 1442. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 10:51:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9371e2$pqk$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> <9v6c5tcr649964spjftrm5mn84v1ocorhq@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa739kWbyiUn5PXC4PLrYHFEqP8Y6mamckTuaYFQ2mla5qQyHqQdR6b X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2001 12:01:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-125 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72244 In article <9v6c5tcr649964spjftrm5mn84v1ocorhq@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding wrote: >Terry Kennedy wrote, in : > >> Nick Spalding writes: >> > I guess you didn't have to fix it! It was a reader/punch both in the >> > same card path. The reader was tolerable, the punch was a bitch. >> >> Was it available without the reader option? IIRC, we used it for punch >> only, with a 2501 for reading. > >Could well have been; I never saw it in such a configuration. Wait a minute...are you guys talking about a duplicator? In order to punch a copy, you have to read. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: First video terminal? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 978585339 2062 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:15:39 GMT Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72179 Nick Spalding writes: > I wonder how what was obviously by way of being a flagship system got > lumbered with the thoroughly nasty 1442. The 1442 was the punch, wasn't it? We liked it - we originally had a 2650 (or was it 2560) MFCM (the Mother-F*ing Card Mangler) which had 2 input hoppers, 5 output hoppers, and a non-deterministic path between them. We swapped out the MFCM for a 2501 and a 1442 and were very happy. However, I'd say we had a 98/2 read/punch ratio - most users had moved to magetape datasets by then. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: First video terminal? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4F8C2E.CE181F4A@sprintmail.com> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 978585943 2062 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:25:44 GMT Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72191 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > while the standard 360 console, 1052-7, may have been somewhat more > rugged than early selectrics ... it still had the golfball > tilt/rotate. I know that CSC kept a spare 1052-7 for the 360/67 > ... rather than repairing ... swap the hardware and repair the broken > one offline. When I was in school, we had Trendata 1000 terminals, which were a 3rd- party interface to a Selectric mechanism. From the way you describe the less-than-useful Formica table, the T1000 was apparently an exact clone. We also had about the same number of 029 keypunches. The T1000's were more reliable than the 029's - I can't remember when I found an unusable T1000, while the 029's were always in need of major or minor repairs. > More than once, the "finger" would sense that it had reached the end > of paper and signal intervention required to the CPU. However there > were no lights indicating the problem ... and OS/360 when it got an > intervention required from the 1052-7 would ring the bell and stop all > operations. There were numerous times where it took between 30minutes > to 3hrs for somebody to realize that the reason that the system had > apparently died was because the 1052-7 had run out of paper (since the > input feed wasn't easily visable). The reason our 3125 CPU was upgraded immediately after eligibility for trade was the console. Under DOS/VS rel 32 (I think it was 32, may have been 30) POWER, opening the cover on the 1052 would wedge the system in a state requiring a re-IPL. And of course, clearing the phantom paper jams required opening the cover 8-( Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.22.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 18:57:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.145.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 978634666 193.203.145.58 (Thu, 04 Jan 2001 18:57:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 18:57:46 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72373 Terry Kennedy wrote, in : > Nick Spalding writes: > > I wonder how what was obviously by way of being a flagship system got > > lumbered with the thoroughly nasty 1442. > > The 1442 was the punch, wasn't it? We liked it I guess you didn't have to fix it! It was a reader/punch both in the same card path. The reader was tolerable, the punch was a bitch. -- Nick Spalding ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: First video terminal? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 978706943 23989 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:02:24 GMT Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72174 Nick Spalding writes: > I guess you didn't have to fix it! It was a reader/punch both in the > same card path. The reader was tolerable, the punch was a bitch. Was it available without the reader option? IIRC, we used it for punch only, with a 2501 for reading. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.22.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: <9v6c5tcr649964spjftrm5mn84v1ocorhq@4ax.com> References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:10:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.144.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 978721858 193.203.144.167 (Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:10:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:10:58 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72389 Terry Kennedy wrote, in : > Nick Spalding writes: > > I guess you didn't have to fix it! It was a reader/punch both in the > > same card path. The reader was tolerable, the punch was a bitch. > > Was it available without the reader option? IIRC, we used it for punch > only, with a 2501 for reading. Could well have been; I never saw it in such a configuration. -- Nick Spalding ###### Message-ID: <3A578053.8B7C950B@cmc.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 12:30:11 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: First video terminal? References: <8t36kn$2kbh$1@news.enteract.com> <3A4E49C9.5EE45981@earthlink.net> <9v6c5tcr649964spjftrm5mn84v1ocorhq@4ax.com> <9371e2$pqk$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 978813014 193 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:72473 > >> > It was a reader/punch both in the same card path. > >> Was it available without the reader option? IIRC, we used it for > >> punch only, with a 2501 for reading. jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > Wait a minute...are you guys talking about a duplicator? > In order to punch a copy, you have to read. No, it could NOT be used for duplicating, because the read station was ahead of the card station in the same card path. Only one input hopper, used for reading, and then emptied and loaded with blank cards to punch. 1442 model 5 was a punch-only version. Model 6 and 7 were the 300 cpm and 400 cpm read/punch combos. (They punched at about 50 cpm unless you told it halfway through the card that you were done punching, at which point it could speed up while ejecting the card. One of the truly crazy features was that it could not read at the slower feed rate used for punching, so if you wanted to read the cards before punching (blank check, to protect against operator error) you had to pick a card only on every other cycle, so that there would not be a card in the read station while a card was being punched. See the online programming manual for the 1130 at Howard Shubs' website: http://www.mindspring.com/~hshubs/1130/functional/Cards.html -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277