From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 16 Oct 2000 18:05:06 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 971719506 870 207.229.143.40 (16 Oct 2000 18:05:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Oct 2000 18:05:06 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66235 Marco S Hyman wrote: > James Kanze writes: > > > ASCII is a standard, and there has only been one version. > > Nope. ASCII, like all standards, has changed over the years. The > 1963 version (USASCII X3.4-1963), for example, did not define the > lower case letters, had different control characters and different > codes for common control characters. > > I think the current version came into being in 1967 (X3.4-1967). Yes, the ASCII we know today is essentially the one published in 1967. The only technical change in 1968 was to give character 0/10 the dual meanings of Newline and Line Feed, instead of only Line Feed as in the previous versions. So if you use Unix, you're using the 1968 version. Referring to the 1963 version as USASCII is slightly inaccurate. The publishers and acronyms for the various versions of the standards are: 1963 American Standards Association ASCII 1967 USA Standards Institute USASCII 1968 USA Standards Institute ASCII, USASCII 1977- American National Standards Institute ASCII In each case, the standard is ASA X3.4, USASI X3.4, or ANSI X3.4. The major change from 1963 to 1967 was of course the addition of the lower case alphabet. In addition, the 1963 up-arrow became the caret, the left-arrow became the underline, and certain control characters were renamed or relocated, ESC being the most significant. In summary: 1963 1967 1963 1967 0/ 1 SOM SOH 1/ 8 S0 CAN 0/ 2 EOA STX 1/ 9 S1 EM 0/ 3 EOM ETX 1/10 S2 SUB 0/ 4 EOT EOT 1/11 S3 ESC 0/ 5 WRU ENQ 1/12 S4 FS 0/ 6 RU ACK 1/13 S5 GS 1/14 S6 RS 0/ 8 FE0 BS 1/15 S7 US 7/11 { 1/ 5 ERR NAK 7/12 ACK | 1/ 6 SYNC SYN 7/13 } 1/ 7 LEM ETB 7/14 ESC ~ I can't currently distribute the comprehensive history of the standard that I've been working on for months, but will be happy to try to answer any questions about how it came about. eric ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 09:24:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> X-Trace: 3ZFf+Q0w7tQr0kCQ+mW1SwZIjqJt+UK1Br0UOtObyeg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Oct 2000 12:35:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-242 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66290 In article <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com>, Eric Fischer wrote: >Marco S Hyman wrote: > >> James Kanze writes: >> >> > ASCII is a standard, and there has only been one version. >> >> Nope. ASCII, like all standards, has changed over the years. The >> 1963 version (USASCII X3.4-1963), for example, did not define the >> lower case letters, had different control characters and different >> codes for common control characters. >> >> I think the current version came into being in 1967 (X3.4-1967). > >Yes, the ASCII we know today is essentially the one published in 1967. >The only technical change in 1968 was to give character 0/10 the dual >meanings of Newline and Line Feed, instead of only Line Feed as in the >previous versions. So if you use Unix, you're using the 1968 version. > >Referring to the 1963 version as USASCII is slightly inaccurate. The >publishers and acronyms for the various versions of the standards are: > > 1963 American Standards Association ASCII > 1967 USA Standards Institute USASCII > 1968 USA Standards Institute ASCII, USASCII > 1977- American National Standards Institute ASCII > >In each case, the standard is ASA X3.4, USASI X3.4, or ANSI X3.4. > >The major change from 1963 to 1967 was of course the addition of the >lower case alphabet. In addition, the 1963 up-arrow became the caret, >the left-arrow became the underline, and certain control characters >were renamed or relocated, ESC being the most significant. In summary: > > 1963 1967 1963 1967 > 0/ 1 SOM SOH 1/ 8 S0 CAN > 0/ 2 EOA STX 1/ 9 S1 EM > 0/ 3 EOM ETX 1/10 S2 SUB > 0/ 4 EOT EOT 1/11 S3 ESC > 0/ 5 WRU ENQ 1/12 S4 FS > 0/ 6 RU ACK 1/13 S5 GS > 1/14 S6 RS > 0/ 8 FE0 BS 1/15 S7 US > 7/11 { > 1/ 5 ERR NAK 7/12 ACK | > 1/ 6 SYNC SYN 7/13 } > 1/ 7 LEM ETB 7/14 ESC ~ > >I can't currently distribute the comprehensive history of the standard >that I've been working on for months, but will be happy to try to answer >any questions about how it came about. I don't see the backarrow, a character I still mourn. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 08:20:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8sk1mu$esa$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> X-Trace: o3B8j1StPAQTD6vWdq5UVTN/9qh86rkFPrhWQ0BEdoo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 2000 11:31:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-152 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66310 In article <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com>, Eric Fischer wrote: >JMFBAH quotes me: > >> >The major change from 1963 to 1967 was of course the addition of the >> >lower case alphabet. In addition, the 1963 up-arrow became the caret, >> >the left-arrow became the underline, and certain control characters >> >were renamed or relocated, ESC being the most >> >significant. In summary... >> >> I don't see the backarrow, a character I still mourn. > >I did mention it earlier in the posting, but didn't include it and the >up-arrow in the table because I can't type them on an ASCII keyboard. :) ROTFLMAO. Of course. What a beautiful irony. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 17 Oct 2000 21:03:54 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-3.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 971816634 794 207.229.143.42 (17 Oct 2000 21:03:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Oct 2000 21:03:54 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66318 JMFBAH quotes me: > >The major change from 1963 to 1967 was of course the addition of the > >lower case alphabet. In addition, the 1963 up-arrow became the caret, > >the left-arrow became the underline, and certain control characters > >were renamed or relocated, ESC being the most significant. In summary... > > I don't see the backarrow, a character I still mourn. I did mention it earlier in the posting, but didn't include it and the up-arrow in the table because I can't type them on an ASCII keyboard. :) It's a shame the backarrow was deleted, but even more of a shame that the X3.2 subcommittee waited so long to do it. The ISO subcommittee meeting where it was removed from the code was October 29-31, 1963, just four months after ASCII-1963 was first published. It would have been much better if X3.2 had immediately announced that the character was deprecated instead of letting people spend four years developing uses for it before taking it away. eric ###### Message-ID: <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:54:13 -0700 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-153-97.ev1.net X-Trace: 17 Oct 2000 17:55:23 -0500, taydal-153-97.ev1.net Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!newsa.ev1.net!taydal-153-97.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66353 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > I don't see the backarrow, a character I still mourn. > IIRC backarrow was replaced by underscore. I remember some old keyboards that were caps only, and the underscore was a shift-O. Does this match with anyone else's memories...or am I hallucinating again??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 18 Oct 2000 01:54:24 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8sivsg$mi8$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-3.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 971834064 23112 207.229.143.42 (18 Oct 2000 01:54:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 2000 01:54:24 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66321 Charles Richmond wrote: > IIRC backarrow was replaced by underscore. I remember some old > keyboards that were caps only, and the underscore was a shift-O. > Does this match with anyone else's memories...or am I hallucinating > again??? I wasn't there to see it happen, but Teletype reportedly began delivering Model 33 (monocase) Teletypes with underline instead of backarrow after June 1, 1966. The memo stated the change as follows: --------------------------------------------------------------------- CHANGES IN MODELS 33 and 35 Most of the developments in the ASCII over the past three years have affected areas not implemented in the Model 33 and Model 35 Sets or have involved changes in nomenclature only. The table below shows the changes which will be required in presently manufactured Model 33 and 35 Sets. 1. (up arrow) becomes ^ 2. <- becomes _ 3. Early units had "Escape" (sometimes labeled ALT MODE) coded as permutation 7/13 or 7/14; Escape is now 1/11. Sets built in the past year have "Escape" properly coded. CHANGES IN MODEL 37 The Model 37 Sets delivered to date would require the following changes to reflect the change from X3.4-1965 to X3.4-1966. 1. ` becomes @ 2. @ becomes ` 3. ~ becomes \ 4. (overbar) becomes | 5. | becomes (overbar) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not all of Teletype's customers, though, were willing to accept equipment that had been altered to conform to the revised code. The PDP-10 Reference Handbook, published in 1969, contains the following note: --------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE Due to recent changes in ASCII, some terminals may have the keytops "^" (caret) and "_" (underline); these characters have the same codes as "(up arrow)" and "<-", respectively. Where possible, DEC will supply all teletypes with the arrow characters. --------------------------------------------------------------------- eric ###### From: benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk (Ben Clifford) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:33:56 +0000 Organization: benZone Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> Reply-To: benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-23.antenna-lion.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 971890178 31817 62.136.223.23 (18 Oct 2000 17:29:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 2000 17:29:38 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!benc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66375 [groups trimmed] >> I don't see the backarrow, a character I still mourn. >> >IIRC backarrow was replaced by underscore. I remember some old >keyboards that were caps only, and the underscore was a shift-O. >Does this match with anyone else's memories...or am I hallucinating >again??? The BBC Micro had a backarrow symbol when the display was in Mode 7, which was something else when in modes 0..6. Was probably the underscore, but I can't quite remember. Or maybe it was up-arrow and caret. Any teletext experts out there? -- http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ GPG key: 30F06950. You are encouraged to sign and encrypt correspondence. Visit my site for benno.globe - rotating world map applet. ###### Message-ID: <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> From: Tom Almy Reply-To: toma@fluence.com Organization: Fluence Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:21:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.57.153.11 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 971878926 204.57.153.11 (Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:22:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:22:06 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66276 Good memory! The "Shift" key toggled the 16 bit, adding or subtracting 16 from the ASCII code. This caused other anomalies such as the parenthesis being shift-8 and shift-9 rather than shift-9 and shift-0 as on a typewriter. I think this was call a correspondence keyboard, not having to do with writing letters but with the shift and control keys causing the new code to correspond according to the ASCII chart rather than a standard keyboard. Charles Richmond wrote: > IIRC backarrow was replaced by underscore. I remember some old > keyboards that were caps only, and the underscore was a shift-O. > Does this match with anyone else's memories...or am I hallucinating > again??? -- -------- Tom Almy Fluence Technology Incorporated 8700 SW Creekside Place Beaverton, OR 97008 (503) 672-8721 ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 18 Oct 2000 14:53:53 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 971880833 18318 128.29.251.13 (18 Oct 2000 14:53:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 2000 14:53:53 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66283 Tom Almy writes: >Good memory! The "Shift" key toggled the 16 bit, adding or subtracting >16 from the ASCII code. This caused other anomalies such as the parenthesis >being shift-8 and shift-9 rather than shift-9 and shift-0 as on a typewriter. >I think this was call a correspondence keyboard, not having to do with >writing letters but with the shift and control keys causing the new code >to correspond according to the ASCII chart rather than a standard keyboard. Um...not in the general case. The generic term for keyboards with character key assignments that mimiced the ANSI chart positions for each glyph was "bit-paired"; ones that followed the layout of the keyboard on an office typewriter were called "type-paired". As you noted, the quick test for which layout had been used for a particular terminal was to see where the parentises had been placed: shift-89 for bit-paired vs. shift-90 for type-paired. See the entry in _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ on the subject. I'm not sure if other vendors used the term, but in the IBM world many terminals were offered with "correspondence" or "EBCDIC" keyboard layouts, roughly equivalent to "type-paired" and "bit-paired" ASCII configurations. Joe Morris ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 18 Oct 2000 18:27:55 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8skq3b$2eh4$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-3.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 971893675 80420 207.229.143.42 (18 Oct 2000 18:27:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 2000 18:27:55 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66409 Ben Clifford wrote: > The BBC Micro had a backarrow symbol when the display was in Mode 7, > which was something else when in modes 0..6. Was probably the underscore, > but I can't quite remember. > Or maybe it was up-arrow and caret. Any teletext experts out there? The ISO character set registry (http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/ISO-IR) shows the following characters in the Teletext character set: 0 @ P -- p ! 1 A Q a q " 2 B R b r (ukp) 3 C S c s $ 4 D T d t % 5 E U e u & 6 F V f v ' 7 G W g w ( 8 H X h x ) 9 I Y i y * : J Z j z + ; K <- k 1/4 , < L 1/2 l || - = M -> m 3/4 . > N (up) n (div) / ? O # o eric ###### Message-ID: <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> From: Tom Almy Reply-To: toma@fluence.com Organization: Fluence Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:19:08 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.57.153.12 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 971900346 204.57.153.12 (Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:19:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:19:06 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66372 Obviously, my memory failed here! I did start out with IBM equipment, and you are right in that the "correspondence" keyboard was on the IBM 2741 terminal I used, which differed from the keyboards on the keypunches. And even there there were different layouts. Life is much easier now (though not perfect!) Joe Morris wrote: > > Tom Almy writes: > > >I think this was call a correspondence keyboard, not having to do with > >writing letters but with the shift and control keys causing the new code > >to correspond according to the ASCII chart rather than a standard keyboard. > > Um...not in the general case. [...] > > I'm not sure if other vendors used the term, but in the IBM world > many terminals were offered with "correspondence" or "EBCDIC" keyboard > layouts, roughly equivalent to "type-paired" and "bit-paired" ASCII > configurations. -- -------- Tom Almy Fluence Technology Incorporated 8700 SW Creekside Place Beaverton, OR 97008 (503) 672-8721 ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 71 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:58:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.224.208 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 971902701 199.174.224.208 (Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:58:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:58:21 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66389 Tom Almy writes: > Obviously, my memory failed here! I did start out with IBM equipment, > and you are right in that the "correspondence" keyboard was on the IBM 2741 > terminal I used, which differed from the keyboards on the keypunches. > And even there there were different layouts. 2741 came standard and correspondance. CP/67 determined which translate table to use by sending the login message using both standard & non-standard bit pattern. The user was then expected to type login followed by their userid. If the first character translated to "l" (aka login) using the standard translate table ... it was assumed to be a standard 2741. Otherwise it would switch & try the correspondance translate table ... looking for a "l" as the first character. from some old translate table index: 00 2741 04 correspondance 2741 08 apl 2741 0c correspondance apl 10 tty - 18 apl tty ... i.e. 08 bit was used both as part of the translate table indexing but also as flag indicating APL translate command had been issued. when i originally added tty/ascii support to cp/67 in 68 ... i had to play around with some of the non-standard ascii key assignments. I also tried to extend the dynamic terminal type recognition so that TTY, 2471, and 1050s could dial into the same rotory bank. The ibm 2702 line controller had SAD command that controlled which line scanner was associate with which address. On initial connect, I do something like specify the SAD for the tty line scanner and then send a who are you. If that timed out, i would specify the SAD for the 2741 line scanner and try some things. It actually worked ... except eventually i talked to a ibm hardware engineers who said that it was out of spec. While ibm supported changing the line scanner with the SAD command, they took a short cut in the implementation and hard-wired the oscillator to each line ... i.e. "tty" lines would have an oscillator hard wired for 110 baud and "2741" lines would have an oscillator hard wired for 134.? baud. Learning that eventually led to a 4-person project that built a plug-compatible controller out of Interdata3 (and credited with originating the ibm plug-compatible control unit business). One of the things that was supported was (relatively) high frequency strobe of incoming initial bits to dynamically determine baud rate. random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#2 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#2 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#9 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#12 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#30 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#37 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#39 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#44 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#76 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:18:00 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 31 Message-ID: <39EE2FA8.91C323ED@multicians.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 04.36.29.5d Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 18 Oct 2000 23:15:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66388 Lynn Wheeler wrote: > 2741 came standard and correspondance. CP/67 determined which > translate table to use by sending the login message using both > standard & non-standard bit pattern. > > The user was then expected to type login followed by their userid. We implemented a similar feature in Multics, probably inspired by CP-67's. There were various pre-login commands though, so we couldn't always guess right.. was "login" in the wrong char set "kigub" ? can't remember.. Anyways the initial greeting was "please login" and a garbage string, and when you logged in everything seemed to work, but there were two other pre-login commands on Multics: 963 and 938. These were the typeball designators for standard and correspondence. And numbers were the same in both. So if the machine wouldn't understand you, you could type in the number right in front of you and it would force the setting. Uppercase teletypes were also supported. If the user typed the LOGIN command instead of login, or issued the MAP command, the system would set switches to map uppercase input into lowercase unless preceded by a backslash. The prececessor system to CP-67 and Multics, CTSS, required that teletypes respond to WRU with an answer in a specific format. The idea was that random people wouldn't have their pinecone set up with the right code, and they wouldn't be able to log in. 2741s and 1050s on CTSS were also ordered with an RPQ feature called "terminal ID" which sent back a 3 character ID, but I think you could login even if the ID didn't come back. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 19 Oct 2000 00:31:39 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8slfdb$6uq$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-3.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 971915499 7130 207.229.143.42 (19 Oct 2000 00:31:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 2000 00:31:39 GMT Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66411 Joe Morris wrote: > The generic term for keyboards with character key assignments that > mimiced the ANSI chart positions for each glyph was "bit-paired"; > ones that followed the layout of the keyboard on an office typewriter > were called "type-paired". As you noted, the quick test for which > layout had been used for a particular terminal was to see where > the parentises had been placed: shift-89 for bit-paired vs. shift-90 > for type-paired. This test can fail, though, on certain weirdo keyboards with a generally bit-paired layout but typewriter-paired parentheses. The example that immediately springs to mind is the Atari 8-bit computers (400/800/1200/XL/XE), which filled the empty shift-8 position with the @ sign. You could make the case that such keyboards are actually inspired the standard manual typewriter layout rather than by Teletypes, but Atari even missed that one, putting the apostrophe and ampersand in their bit-paired positions instead of in their manual typewriter positions. eric, who should quit following up to every article in this thread... ###### From: benc@krustbustr.hawaga.org.uk (Ben Clifford) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:04:10 +0000 Organization: benZone Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <8skq3b$2eh4$1@news.enteract.com> Reply-To: benc@benzone.freeserve.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1.wisconsin.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 971974939 5238 62.137.99.1 (19 Oct 2000 17:02:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 2000 17:02:19 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!benc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66371 On 18 Oct 2000 18:27:55 GMT, Eric Fischer wrote: >Ben Clifford wrote: > >> The BBC Micro had a backarrow symbol when the display was in Mode 7, >> which was something else when in modes 0..6. Was probably the underscore, >> but I can't quite remember. >> Or maybe it was up-arrow and caret. Any teletext experts out there? > >The ISO character set registry (http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/ISO-IR) >shows the following characters in the Teletext character set: > > 0 @ P -- p what was -- ? (point 97) > . > N (up) n (div) O always seems to appear most when there is random noise on a --- teletext sytem. I suppose it is because one notices it - it is O hardly used anywhere else on teletext and definately not on PCs. -- http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ GPG key 30F06950 on key servers & my web page. You are encouraged to use it! Visit my page for benno.globe - rotating world map applet. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 19 Oct 2000 15:25:18 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 971969118 15218 128.29.251.13 (19 Oct 2000 15:25:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 2000 15:25:18 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66381 Tom Almy writes: >Obviously, my memory failed here! I did start out with IBM equipment, >and you are right in that the "correspondence" keyboard was on the IBM 2741 >terminal I used, which differed from the keyboards on the keypunches. >And even there there were different layouts. Well, the keyboard layouts used on keypunches weren't at all close to what was used on any other device (or at least none that I ever ran into). All of the IBM (and clone) keypunches I worked with used the basic QWERTY layout for the (uppercase-only) alphabetic characters, had an embedded numeric keypad, and mapped most of the non-alpha characters to shifted alpha keys -- call it a three-and-a-half row design because of the four keys above the QWER keytops. In the BCD (pre-S/360) world there were two variants of the glyph sets ("A" for business users and "H" for scientific), although the keys generated the same punch combinations (for example, a column with only a 12-punch was "&" in the A-set, but "+" in the H-set). With the introduction of the EBCDIC de facto standard and the 129 keypunch, the keyboard changed to accommodate the larger character set. Beyond this I'm not aware of any significant differences in keypunch keyboard layouts. (Of course, if you're referring to the layout of keyboards used in key-to-tape systems, all bets are off...) Joe Morris ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 19 Oct 00 13:22:48 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-969.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66452 In article <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: >In the BCD (pre-S/360) world there were two variants of the glyph >sets ("A" for business users and "H" for scientific), although the >keys generated the same punch combinations (for example, a column >with only a 12-punch was "&" in the A-set, but "+" in the H-set). >With the introduction of the EBCDIC de facto standard and the >129 keypunch, the keyboard changed to accommodate the larger >character set. Beyond this I'm not aware of any significant >differences in keypunch keyboard layouts. The nice thing was that a given key would punch the same combination of holes in the card regardless of what glyphs were on the keycaps or printed on the card. This meant that I could touch-type on any keypunch, which came in handy when there were long line-ups for EBCDIC punches but a BCD punch was free (or vice-versa). >(Of course, if you're referring to the layout of keyboards used in >key-to-tape systems, all bets are off...) The ones I saw just copied the 029 layout. I would think this was to make it easier for keypunch operators to make the transition. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 19 Oct 2000 18:53:24 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8snfv4$28ec$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8skq3b$2eh4$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 971981604 74188 207.229.143.40 (19 Oct 2000 18:53:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 2000 18:53:24 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66472 Ben Clifford wrote: > >The ISO character set registry (http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/ISO-IR) > >shows the following characters in the Teletext character set: > > > > 0 @ P -- p > > what was -- ? (point 97) > > > . > N (up) n (div) > > O always seems to appear most when there is random noise on a > --- teletext sytem. I suppose it is because one notices it - it is > O hardly used anywhere else on teletext and definately not on PCs. The registry entry names the two characters "WIDE SEPARATOR (MIDDLE LINE)" and "DIVISION SIGN." They correspond to ASCII grave (`) and tilde (~). These two are probably particularly prone to being generated by line noise because of their bit patterns: (1)110000(0) (1)1111110(0) Assuming the start and stop bits were as shown, these are just the sorts of patterns that are likely to be generated at random but still look like real characters. eric ###### Message-ID: <39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com> From: Tom Almy Reply-To: toma@fluence.com Organization: Fluence Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:39:00 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.57.153.15 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 971984356 204.57.153.15 (Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:39:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:39:16 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66446 I used 026 and 029 keypunches in the late 1960's to early 70's. The 026 was BCD and had a different layout. I usually used the 026's because they were more accessible as most people seemed to hate them and avoid them! The keyboard could be moved anywhere while the 029 keyboard was basically captive to the console. IMHO the 026 was more comfortable to use. I never saw a 129. Joe Morris wrote: > > Tom Almy writes: > > >Obviously, my memory failed here! I did start out with IBM equipment, > >and you are right in that the "correspondence" keyboard was on the IBM 2741 > >terminal I used, which differed from the keyboards on the keypunches. > >And even there there were different layouts. > > Well, the keyboard layouts used on keypunches weren't at all close to > what was used on any other device (or at least none that I ever > ran into). > > All of the IBM (and clone) keypunches I worked with used the > basic QWERTY layout for the (uppercase-only) alphabetic characters, > had an embedded numeric keypad, and mapped most of the non-alpha > characters to shifted alpha keys -- call it a three-and-a-half row > design because of the four keys above the QWER keytops. > > In the BCD (pre-S/360) world there were two variants of the glyph > sets ("A" for business users and "H" for scientific), although the > keys generated the same punch combinations (for example, a column > with only a 12-punch was "&" in the A-set, but "+" in the H-set). > With the introduction of the EBCDIC de facto standard and the > 129 keypunch, the keyboard changed to accommodate the larger > character set. Beyond this I'm not aware of any significant > differences in keypunch keyboard layouts. > > (Of course, if you're referring to the layout of keyboards used in > key-to-tape systems, all bets are off...) > > Joe Morris -- -------- Tom Almy Fluence Technology Incorporated 8700 SW Creekside Place Beaverton, OR 97008 (503) 672-8721 ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 20 Oct 2000 14:46:06 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 972053166 8500 128.29.251.13 (20 Oct 2000 14:46:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Oct 2000 14:46:06 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66453 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >>(Of course, if you're referring to the layout of keyboards used in >>key-to-tape systems, all bets are off...) >The ones I saw just copied the 029 layout. I would think this >was to make it easier for keypunch operators to make the transition. *You* might think that, but some key-to-tape system designers didn't. (No, at this late date I can't think of the vendors' names, but I do remember cursing them.) Joe Morris ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 10:35:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8ss6pv$bde$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> <3a038d8d.6910178@news.cableinet.co.uk> X-Trace: BSsK6tl6i7XVnmEKJeeuhM5pbCxbGkT5dytiASr05zA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Oct 2000 13:47:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-60 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66522 In article <3a038d8d.6910178@news.cableinet.co.uk>, greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: >What is O29? I ask because they still use it today, I had no idea it >was historical. Boy, are you getting yourself into hot . Those, who have used the 029, are historical? BTW, it's a zero not a letter. Where are _they_ still using the 029? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: sarr@engin.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:33:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.146.69 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 972077599 207.75.146.69 (Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:33:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:33:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!sarr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66538 In article <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org>, Joe Morris wrote: > >*You* might think that, but some key-to-tape system designers didn't. > >(No, at this late date I can't think of the vendors' names, but I >do remember cursing them.) Mohawk is the one I remember. -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr@umich.edu voice: +1 734 764 0253 home: +1 734 665 9591 ITD, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ 519 W William, Ann Arbor, MI 48103-4943 ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <3a038d8d.6910178@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:10:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.188.97.171 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 972133851 195.188.97.171 (Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:10:51 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:10:51 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66537 What is O29? I ask because they still use it today, I had no idea it was historical. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 07:33:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8suggg$3p4$9@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> <8stma0$2o02$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> X-Trace: CTJKjCYd5pkU17HQGIvQ1Dx1T728CDclOZlDV7Aa+Io= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2000 10:45:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66561 In article <8stma0$2o02$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org>, Frank McConnell wrote: >Eric Fischer wrote: >> It's a shame the backarrow was deleted, but even more of a shame that >> the X3.2 subcommittee waited so long to do it. The ISO subcommittee >> meeting where it was removed from the code was October 29-31, 1963, >> just four months after ASCII-1963 was first published. It would have >> been much better if X3.2 had immediately announced that the character >> was deprecated instead of letting people spend four years developing >> uses for it before taking it away. > >People kept using it as back-arrow for years after 1967, too. Even >people who {c|sh}ould have known better. > >As an example, I suggest the SPL compiler on the classic HP3000. It >accepts A := B as an assignment; it also accepts A _ B and this is >sometimes seen in old code. This is for a machine that was introduced >in November 1972, and for which the design work started in 1969, which >is a little while after 1967. But did the system have to be able to run "old code"? I can't believe that people have forgotten that backwards compatibility was important. I mean, just because Billy doesn't like it... [now view an emoticon dripping in sarcasm] /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Frank McConnell Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 21 Oct 2000 20:18:15 -0700 Organization: Reanimators Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8stma0$2o02$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: daemonweed.reanimators.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: daemonweed.reanimators.org 972184704 90114 192.168.1.2 (22 Oct 2000 03:18:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@reanimators.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2000 03:18:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!news.reanimators.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66580 Eric Fischer wrote: > It's a shame the backarrow was deleted, but even more of a shame that > the X3.2 subcommittee waited so long to do it. The ISO subcommittee > meeting where it was removed from the code was October 29-31, 1963, > just four months after ASCII-1963 was first published. It would have > been much better if X3.2 had immediately announced that the character > was deprecated instead of letting people spend four years developing > uses for it before taking it away. People kept using it as back-arrow for years after 1967, too. Even people who {c|sh}ould have known better. As an example, I suggest the SPL compiler on the classic HP3000. It accepts A := B as an assignment; it also accepts A _ B and this is sometimes seen in old code. This is for a machine that was introduced in November 1972, and for which the design work started in 1969, which is a little while after 1967. -Frank McConnell ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 22 Oct 2000 04:23:46 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8stq4i$2ukt$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> <8stma0$2o02$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 972188626 96925 207.229.143.40 (22 Oct 2000 04:23:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2000 04:23:46 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66573 Frank McConnell quotes me: > > It's a shame the backarrow was deleted, but even more of a shame that > > the X3.2 subcommittee waited so long to do it. > > People kept using it as back-arrow for years after 1967, too. Even > people who {c|sh}ould have known better. You cite an example from 1972, but there are even worse cases:-- Commodore and Radio Shack designed desktop computers in the *1980s* that still retained the arrows! (as well as other bizarre deviations from the standard) eric ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 07:42:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8t3pqb$qn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com> <8t1c6r$dd6$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: 4oSgjZv1CDzN3QKWHhlgKjIR0LAu8HOYMXHw5I2v3Xw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 10:55:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-108 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66674 In article <8t1c6r$dd6$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >"John J. Chew, III" writes: > >>Did the 026 support the keypunch drum? > >Quite definitely. If I went deep enough through the archaeological dig >in my basement I could probably find the bottle of spare starwheels that >I kept around to replace the ones lost by students who were clueless >about how to use the 026 drum. > >In fact, the 026 and 029 had an option for a second drum, which could >be used as an alternate source of duplication data (triggered by pressing >the "AUX DUP" button). I'll admit that I never actually saw a keypunch >with the feature installed. Are you talking about a second _physical_ drum? Or are you talking about the lower half of a drum card? I used the latter all the time. Those pesky psychology and sociology studies never limited their data to 80 columns. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Frank McConnell Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 22 Oct 2000 11:12:51 -0700 Organization: Reanimators Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8svan4$eeb$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> <8stma0$2o02$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <8suggg$3p4$9@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: daemonweed.reanimators.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: daemonweed.reanimators.org 972238372 14795 192.168.1.2 (22 Oct 2000 18:12:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@reanimators.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2000 18:12:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!news.reanimators.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66646 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (after me): > >As an example, I suggest the SPL compiler on the classic HP3000. It > >accepts A := B as an assignment; it also accepts A _ B and this is > >sometimes seen in old code. This is for a machine that was introduced > >in November 1972, and for which the design work started in 1969, which > >is a little while after 1967. > > But did the system have to be able to run "old code"? I can't > believe that people have forgotten that backwards compatibility > was important. I mean, just because Billy doesn't like it... > [now view an emoticon dripping in sarcasm] That's a good question, and I don't know its answer. The computer's architecture was new for HP (but was influenced by the Burroughs B5000/5500): the earlier HP 211[456] computers are a two-accumulator architecture, while the "Alpha" (as what became the 3000 was called at the time) was designed as a stack architecture: the programming model was to push or load arguments onto the stack, and then execute an instruction that used the stacked arguments. SPL was designed as the system programming language for the machine (in preference to an assembler, though there was a sort of assembler accessible from within SPL), and while its designers borrowed liberally from Algol, it was tightly wrapped around the 3000 architecture and many of its features wouldn't have made sense on a 2100-family computer. On the other hand, there was an earlier HP ALGOL compiler for the 2100, and its manual notes: Note that HP ALGOL uses the symbol "_" instead of the ALGOL 60 symbol ":=". However, the symbol ":=" will be recognized as being equivalent. (This from the fourth edition, June 1971; the first edition was September 1968.) But I don't expect there was much call to carry 2100 HP ALGOL source over to 3000 SPL, and it's not clear that you could do so without some rewriting effort in any case (HP ALGOL supported a shorthand FOR index := initial-value TO limit-value (vs. FOR index := initial-value STEP 1 UNTIL limit-value) that is not present in SPL). So, my guess is that there were just a bunch of 33ASR users whose fingers were wired up to press shift-O when coding an assignment. (Note followups to a.f.c only) -Frank McConnell ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) From: "John J. Chew, III" Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 04:46:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.33.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news3.rdc1.on.home.com 972276415 24.43.33.226 (Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:46:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:46:55 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news3.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66637 In article 39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com, Tom Almy at toma@fluence.com wrote on 2000 10 19 15:39: > I used 026 and 029 keypunches in the late 1960's to early 70's. The 026 was > BCD and had a different layout. I usually used the 026's because they were > more accessible as most people seemed to hate them and avoid them! The > keyboard > could be moved anywhere while the 029 keyboard was basically captive to the > console. IMHO the 026 was more comfortable to use. I never saw a 129. Did the 026 support the keypunch drum? John -- John J. Chew, III jjchew@math.utoronto.ca * http://www.math.utoronto.ca/jjchew ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 23 Oct 2000 12:50:35 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8t1c6r$dd6$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 972305435 13734 128.29.251.13 (23 Oct 2000 12:50:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 2000 12:50:35 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66588 "John J. Chew, III" writes: >Did the 026 support the keypunch drum? Quite definitely. If I went deep enough through the archaeological dig in my basement I could probably find the bottle of spare starwheels that I kept around to replace the ones lost by students who were clueless about how to use the 026 drum. In fact, the 026 and 029 had an option for a second drum, which could be used as an alternate source of duplication data (triggered by pressing the "AUX DUP" button). I'll admit that I never actually saw a keypunch with the feature installed. Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:36:15 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8t46ov$hns$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com> <8t1c6r$dd6$1@top.mitre.org> <8t3pqb$qn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 972398175 18172 128.29.251.13 (24 Oct 2000 14:36:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2000 14:36:15 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!newsfeed.mathworks.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66666 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >>In fact, the 026 and 029 had an option for a second drum, which could >>be used as an alternate source of duplication data (triggered by pressing >>the "AUX DUP" button). I'll admit that I never actually saw a keypunch >>with the feature installed. >Are you talking about a second _physical_ drum? Or are >you talking about the lower half of a drum card? >I used the latter all the time. Those pesky psychology and >sociology studies never limited their data to 80 columns. Second *physical* drum, located behind the normal one. The lower half of the normal drum was a second program (ALT PGM button). Joe Morris ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 08:54:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8t6ica$2p1$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <39EF4DD4.5807D2F1@fluence.com> <8t1c6r$dd6$1@top.mitre.org> <8t3pqb$qn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8t46ov$hns$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: 2/YIfW2jCUHlXJsDezvq7JAWWKucPoyZBLfP0BWtuu0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2000 12:06:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66734 [snip the java; they can't deal cards] In article <8t46ov$hns$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: > >>>In fact, the 026 and 029 had an option for a second drum, which could >>>be used as an alternate source of duplication data >>>(triggered by pressing >>>the "AUX DUP" button). I'll admit that I never actually saw a keypunch >>>with the feature installed. > >>Are you talking about a second _physical_ drum? Or are >>you talking about the lower half of a drum card? >>I used the latter all the time. Those pesky psychology and >>sociology studies never limited their data to 80 columns. > >Second *physical* drum, located behind the normal one. You did say you never saw one. But, IIRC, I don't see how a second drum could fit in that space. Did they add an attachment so that there's something jutting out from the back of the keypunch. > The lower >half of the normal drum was a second program (ALT PGM button). Oh, yes. Now I remember...jeez, my brain seems to be really fried this week. I also seemed to be able to see in the haze that the AUX DUP keys were very brown. Hint: Anytime you need to program a key that isn't used very much just take a look at the colors. Used keys don't accumulate brown crud. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <39fdc8d1.6024144@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> <3a038d8d.6910178@news.cableinet.co.uk> <8ss6pv$bde$7@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:49:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.188.97.91 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news1.cableinet.net 972474590 195.188.97.91 (Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:50 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:50 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!news-hub.cableinet.net!news1.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66758 On Sat, 21 Oct 00 10:35:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com sprachen: >Where are _they_ still using the 029? Modern data-entry places, using an app that runs on a PC. It's the 029 keyboard layout, whatever that is, and even has the HOME key renamed to "aux dup", whatever the hell that means. I'd like to know more about 029 cos it's basically still in use, emulated, today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 25 Oct 2000 14:22:49 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8t6qbp$c0k$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> <3a038d8d.6910178@news.cableinet.co.uk> <8ss6pv$bde$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39fdc8d1.6024144@news.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 972483769 12308 128.29.251.13 (25 Oct 2000 14:22:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2000 14:22:49 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:66725 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk writes: >On Sat, 21 Oct 00 10:35:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com sprachen: >>Where are _they_ still using the 029? >Modern data-entry places, using an app that runs on a PC. It's the 029 >keyboard layout, whatever that is, and even has the HOME key renamed >to "aux dup", whatever the hell that means. This was mentioned in another posting here recently. AUX DUP (an extra-cost feature on the 026 and 029 keypunches) got you a second card drum for fixed data. Normally, if you have a card registered in both the read and punch stations, pressing the DUP key causes the keypunch to read the data from the current column of the card at the read station, and punch that data into the card at the punch station. (If the program card is active the DUP operation might continue for multiple columns.) If you have the AUX DUP feature and have installed a card on the drum, pressing AUX DUP causes the keypunch to read data from the second drum card and punch it into the card at the punch station. Joe Morris ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 10:59:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8tjs54$3aa$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39ECF4B5.E5D24C8E@ev1.net> <39EDB1DB.92F18425@fluence.com> <8skdi1$hse$1@top.mitre.org> <39EE05BC.CFADD487@fluence.com> <8sn3ou$eri$1@top.mitre.org> <1254.327T2416T8026149@sky.bus.com> <8splre$89k$1@top.mitre.org> <3a038d8d.6910178@news.cableinet.co.uk> <8ss6pv$bde$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <39fdc8d1.6024144@news.cableinet.co.uk> <8t6qbp$c0k$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: PN+OprIrxiPSrMbDpNDWWOwhwikdGQDIGWyDTKFYwz4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 2000 13:13:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67009 In article <8t6qbp$c0k$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk writes: > >>On Sat, 21 Oct 00 10:35:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com sprachen: > >>>Where are _they_ still using the 029? > >>Modern data-entry places, using an app that runs on a PC. It's the 029 >>keyboard layout, whatever that is, and even has the HOME key renamed >>to "aux dup", whatever the hell that means. > >This was mentioned in another posting here recently. AUX DUP (an >extra-cost feature on the 026 and 029 keypunches) got you a second card >drum for fixed data. > >Normally, if you have a card registered in both the read and punch >stations, pressing the DUP key causes the keypunch to read the data >from the current column of the card at the read station, and punch >that data into the card at the punch station. (If the program >card is active the DUP operation might continue for multiple columns.) > >If you have the AUX DUP feature and have installed a card on the drum, >pressing AUX DUP causes the keypunch to read data from the second drum >card and punch it into the card at the punch station. > Aw, man. Is that what that was used for? I could have used that. A certain sociology key punch project would have only taken me half long to do. Nobody could tell me what that key was for. I guess that's because I worked in a computer center and not a data processing center. There were times when I really wanted to visit a processing center and talk to the underpaid rabble so I could know what I was doing :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jsavard@fNrOeSePnAeMt.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 02:33:18 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3a00d156.978677@news.powersurfr.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c51082-001.powersurfr.com X-Trace: dagger.ab.videon.ca 973132284 30197 24.108.206.34 (2 Nov 2000 02:31:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 2000 02:31:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67279 On Tue, 17 Oct 00 09:24:11 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote, in part: >I don't see the backarrow, a character I still mourn. I am much happier to have the underscore. But I mourn the uparrow, which better symbolizes exponentiation than the caret. I guess we'll never see, now, a "Word Processing ASCII" with the following translations: change ` to degree sign change ~ to +/- change ^ to cent sign change | to 1/4 change \ to 1/2 change { to British pound sign change } to 3/4 change < to paragraph mark change > to section mark or maybe we already have seen it; probably, some WP systems came close to this. Then there's that UNIVAC terminal that put all kinds of math symbols where we now have lower case; *that* as an alternate printed representation of ASCII would have been quite useful, as one of the big uses of computers is to write programs. So having things like a root sign, a less-than-or-equal-to symbol, and so on, would have been cute. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: jsavard@fNrOeSePnAeMt.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 02:34:23 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3a00d29e.1307336@news.powersurfr.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <8sierq$oq$1@news.enteract.com> <8stma0$2o02$1@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <8stq4i$2ukt$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c51082-001.powersurfr.com X-Trace: dagger.ab.videon.ca 973132350 30197 24.108.206.34 (2 Nov 2000 02:32:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 2000 02:32:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67286 On 22 Oct 2000 04:23:46 GMT, Eric Fischer wrote, in part: >You cite an example from 1972, but there are even worse cases:-- >Commodore and Radio Shack designed desktop computers in the *1980s* >that still retained the arrows! (as well as other bizarre deviations >from the standard) Most notably reversing upper and lower case. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 2 Nov 2000 03:23:37 GMT Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8tqmnp$ep4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a00d156.978677@news.powersurfr.com> X-Trace: PpiNHKbTms4qeu5doAF6ZPik0/VTu8Hg2NBE1shPK1s= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 2000 03:23:37 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67265 John Savard wrote: > I guess we'll never see, now, a "Word Processing ASCII" with the > following translations: > > change ` to degree sign; change ~ to +/-; change ^ to cent sign; > change | to 1/4; change \ to 1/2; change { to British pound sign; > change } to 3/4; change < to paragraph mark; change > to section mark > > or maybe we already have seen it; probably, some WP systems came close > to this. All of these characters are included in ISO 8859-1, probably with the specific goal of making sure that all the characters anyone missed from typewriters would be available on computers. I have to believe that this is a smarter way to do it than giving still more characters dual interpretations. > Then there's that UNIVAC terminal that put all kinds of math symbols > where we now have lower case; *that* as an alternate printed > representation of ASCII would have been quite useful, as one of the > big uses of computers is to write programs. In late 1962, this was considered to be the one of the likely candidates for what was then "the unassigned area." It might have happened if the CCITT hadn't insisted that the code include accent marks and two alphabetic cases. eric ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: 2 Nov 2000 14:13:12 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8trspo$il$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a00d156.978677@news.powersurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 973174392 597 128.29.251.13 (2 Nov 2000 14:13:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 2000 14:13:12 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67251 jsavard@fNrOeSePnAeMt.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) writes: >Then there's that UNIVAC terminal that put all kinds of math symbols >where we now have lower case; *that* as an alternate printed >representation of ASCII would have been quite useful, as one of the >big uses of computers is to write programs. So having things like a >root sign, a less-than-or-equal-to symbol, and so on, would have been >cute. If you want all that stuff, just get yourself a terminal with the APL character set. Lots of odd mathematical and logical symbols to play with...and overstrikes were a significant part of the character set. There was one such terminal that I worked with several years ago where the design of the terminal itself -- not just the character set -- was based on APL. This was the HDS ("Human Designed System", IIRC) machine; the hardware of the terminal even had a "latent expression" which could *really* screw it up if you put the wrong string into it. (In APL, a workspace can have a "latent expression" which is automatically executed when the workspace is loaded. Normally this can be used to autostart a program within the workspace, but it could cause all sorts of mischief if the wrong commands were in it.) Joe Morris ###### From: jsavard@fNrOeSePnAeMt.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: History of ASCII (was Re: Why Not! Why not???) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:53:25 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3a02a695.4264476@news.powersurfr.com> References: <8s5m9r$v7r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <39EABE84.2C0EAB22@dresdner-bank.de> <8sfg0i$r6$1@news.enteract.com> <8shh2b$4ip$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a00d156.978677@news.powersurfr.com> <8trspo$il$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: c51082-001.powersurfr.com X-Trace: dagger.ab.videon.ca 973252289 20573 24.108.206.34 (3 Nov 2000 11:51:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 2000 11:51:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:67405 On 2 Nov 2000 14:13:12 GMT, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote, in part: >If you want all that stuff, just get yourself a terminal with the >APL character set. Lots of odd mathematical and logical symbols >to play with...and overstrikes were a significant part of the >character set. Well, that's good for programming in APL. But otherwise, one doesn't want to have all one's uppercase letters in _italics_. Even though most video terminals don't bother with the italics, the APL character set adds so many mathematical symbols, including some not useful outside APL, that other common symbols like &, $, @ and so on are omitted (although $ is brought back in the extended 94-character APL set, which also adds the diamond, the two tacks, and the curly braces). John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm