From: dnoack@bestweb.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Message-ID: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 79 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 03:36:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.179.15.135 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: monger.newsread.com 968556987 216.179.15.135 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:36:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:36:27 EDT Organization: BestWeb (bestweb.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!POSTED.monger.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63586 Hi, My name is David Noack and I'm a computer correspondent with Investor's Business Daily, a national business newspaper. I'm doing a story about attempts being made to salvage and preserve old computer software, programs such as DOS versions of Lotus 1-2-3, VisiCalc, WordStar, etc. The story is basically that while there are a number of groups that are preserving computer hardware, now efforts are being made to preserve the other part of the computer industry, OS's and application. I'd like to hear some stories about classic software, whether you still use them, what is the name of the app, manufactuer and version of the software. The questions below are geared toward getting comments about software preservation. Here are a few questions for your consideration. 1. Why is it important to save software? Has any "official" organization made earlier attempts to save and archive software? 2. Since there is so much software, what kind of software should be saved, whether it's commercial, shareware or freeware? How is it determined as to what software will be saved and where and how is the software obtained in order to be saved? 3. Do you need or would like to have the software documentation, in additional to being a set of instructions for the application or OS, also as a historical reference? 4. How difficult/easy is it to get classic software? How many of these classic apps and OS's do you have, what are some of them, and where are they housed? 5. What are some of the advantages of preserving classic software and is there a downside or disadvantage to saving it? 6. How can computer users view, look at this software? Is it loaded onto systems or just kept boxed up? 7. How much cooperation do you get from software companies in terms of them giving/donating/loaning classic OS's and apps to you. 8. Do you preserve all kind of apps or just ones in more popular categories, like database, spreadsheets, word processing, etc. 9. Do you also seek to preserve programming languages? If so, which ones. 10. How big and long a project is this? 11. Do computer users have a nostalgic feel for classic software, the kind of "good old days" of computing and this software brings back memories of certain hardware they used, etc. Please feel free to add anything I missed here. Also, please include your name, title, where you are (city/state) will do, how long been involved in computing, programmer, management, IT, etc. I look forward to hearing from you. David David Noack Computer Correspondent Investor's Business Daily Fax (413) 793-9575 dnoack@bestweb.net http://www.investors.com ###### From: "philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:00:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 61 Message-ID: <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.250.192.233 X-Trace: 968587381 news.twtelecom.net 23903 207.250.192.233 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.twtelecom.net!news.twtelecom.net!news.twtelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63610 Hello... you have raised some very interesting questions... and yes...there is quite a bit of old software still around and in use. for the past 25 years i have been an antique collector (among other things) and have spent quite a bit of time restoring vacuum tube radios...and had actually hated computers. if i wanted to write a letter...i'd just put a piece of paper in my 1939 l.c.smith corona typewriter and go. once a year i'd put in a new ribbon...and every five or ten years give it a few drops of oil. (i'd laugh like hell when i heard people talking of printer problems etc.) of course now i love computers because they become antiques so rapidly and soon grew to a love of old software. it is of value if still in existance along with all the original manuals on the original floppies etc...but since most of the old software was issued on floppies (which tend to die rather easily) i suspect most of it now exists on harddrives or burned to cd's. there are plenty of people who possibly got a computer for word processing in...say...1985 and just keep using it because it still does the job quite well. The newer software and machines may be fancier and easier to use...but the old system still works fine. (I *did not* stop using my typewriter when i got my computer.) also...consider industry. i repair industrial equipment for a living...and quite a bit of it still uses old software because it was just designed for one purpose and there was no need to change anything over the years. although microsoft is continually putting out new products...there are still a lot of people using windows3.1 (the version just prior to windows 95). it is really a perfectly good system ...still in use. although there are plenty of places to still obtain windows3.1 it is no longer supported by microsoft... the problem many people have is that it is technically not legal to obtain the product unless it is licensed (in other words...microsoft is paid for it) now from a legal stand point i can certanly see that microsoft has a claim,,,but the reason people get a bit peeved is the situation would be like having and old car and not being able to get parts for it from the manufacturer...but finding it illegal to buy the parts elsewhere.! Philo btw: if you want more info such as my name and address etc or have any questions...feel free to email me. the operating systems i have (many still in use) are the following: dos1 , 3, 4,6 windows 1 ,2 ,3, 95 ,98 cp/m (emulation mode only) os/2 (versions 2.1 and warp3) nde linux red hat 5.2 and 6.0 etc... ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:55:44 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 68 Message-ID: <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: gK3AH1+zgY/jQDvF43sKzbXGMC24Yh75uudN9pnFVcg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 2000 12:55:46 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63589 philo wrote: > > [In response to Mr. Noack's request for software stories] > > Hello... > you have raised some very interesting questions... > and yes...there is quite a bit of old software still around and in > use. > > [Old software] is of value if still in existance along with all the > original manuals on the original floppies etc...but since most of the > old software was issued on floppies (which tend to die rather easily) > i suspect most of it now exists on harddrives or burned to cd's. Please don't fall into the all too easy trap of, "Computers were invented in 1981 by Microsoft and Intel". That's patent rubbish. Software distribution was carried on via magnetic tape, paper tape, occasionally source code, and then, only comparitively recently, on floppies (first, 8-inchers, then 5-1/4 inch "mini- floppies", and finally now the 3-1/2 incher). CD/ROMs of course, by comparison, are in their infancy. Properly cared for, paper tape should last hundreds of years, and punched Mylar tape is said to be the only "permanent" storage medium in existance for computer software. Magnetic tape, in many forms, widths, and trackings, has a problem with "fade" where the individual magnetic domains on the tape eventually spread out and render the tape unreadable. There's another problem with this: Documentation! Frequently, the manuals which accompanied programs and OSes were printed on unbelievably cheap paper, and if not lost by a succession of owners literally self-destruct in about 25 years. Sometimes reading the media (whatever you care to name) is impossible because the technology to do so is gone. (Have a look at "The Dead Media Project" for details.) Too, just because you can read it, doesn't mean you're supposed to or are entitled to. Old "licenses" frequently remain in force perpetually and may make it illegal for you to do anything with what you recovered. > there are plenty of people who possibly got a computer for word > processing in...say...1985 and just keep using it because it still > does the job quite well. The newer software and machines may be > fancier and easier to use...but the old system still works fine. (I > *did not* stop using my typewriter when i got my computer.) To drive the point home, there's a richer history in this than simply going back to the beginning of the commercially-built "home computer". I occasionally use a machine which was purchased new in 1973, and run its software on a simulator once a week or so. I have frequent dealings with machines and software that date well back into the 1960s, and there are many other folks who deal with systems even older than that. Please don't fall into the "Computers began with PCs" trap, especially if you're going to be writing a general history on the topic. Oh, well. That's enough ranting for now. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:36:16 -0400 Organization: Kersur Technologies Lines: 183 Message-ID: <8pg98h$p2j$1@news.kersur.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 05-038.024.popsite.net X-Trace: news.kersur.net 968599633 25683 216.126.161.38 (10 Sep 2000 15:27:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kersur.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 2000 15:27:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-x.support.nl!portc01.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.kersur.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63566 dnoack@bestweb.net wrote in message <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net>... > > >Hi, > >My name is David Noack and I'm a computer correspondent with >Investor's Business Daily, a national business newspaper. > >I'm doing a story about attempts being made to salvage and preserve >old computer software, programs such as DOS versions of Lotus 1-2-3, >VisiCalc, WordStar, etc. > Let me chide you gently here, for a moment. Everything you've mentioned so far deals with PCs, and while PCs have a rich history, the history of computers by no means started with PCs. Even though WordStar has been "obsolete" for mumble-mumble years (and I say that tongue-in-cheek as I still find WordStar very useful as a text editor, even today), it is a relative newcomer to the computer scene. Well before the PC era were minicomputers, with editors such as EDT, TECO, vi and emacs (still current in the Unix world). Wang Laboratories made a very lucretive career out of pre-PC word processing. And before the minicomputer era were interactive mainframes, and before that were punch cards, and before that... Your story may be a lot deeper than you appreciate. >The story is basically that while there are a number of groups that >are preserving computer hardware, now efforts are being made to >preserve the other part of the computer industry, OS's and >application. > >I'd like to hear some stories about classic software, whether you >still use them, what is the name of the app, manufactuer and version >of the software. The questions below are geared toward getting >comments about software preservation. > >Here are a few questions for your consideration. > >1. Why is it important to save software? Has any "official" >organization made earlier attempts to save and archive software? It depends on what you mean by "official". There are several groups engaged in preserving old software, some more formally than others. For example, the Retrocomputing Society of Rhode Island (RSC/RI) is a private corporation that collects, restores and displays old computers, particularly minicomputers, and actively seeks to save and archive the software that runs on them. The Rhode Island Computer Museum (RICM) does much the same thing, concentrating mainly on computers made in New England, as well as microcomputers. The Rhode Island Apple Group, which I believe is incorporated, is largely concerned with modern Apple computers and software, but their Apple II Sig has a large formal archive of Apple II software. There's an outfit in Silicon Valley called Bitsavers who are specifically attempting to chronicle old software (how formally I do not know), as well as the folks working out at Moffat Field. There are, perhaps, several dozen organizations, and innumerable individuals, involved in this, and I hope I do not offend anyone or any group by not mentioning them. For those who feel left out, please chime in! The reason why saving software is important is simple to retrocomputing enthusiasts: Old computer iron is fun to look at, but unless it's a unique artifact like a piece of the Whirlwind, if it doesn't run it's dead. It is the software that makes these old beasts come alive, and there is as much technological value in the old software as in the hardware. > >2. Since there is so much software, what kind of software should be >saved, whether it's commercial, shareware or freeware? How is it >determined as to what software will be saved and where and how is the >software obtained in order to be saved? The answer depends on who you talk to, and what sort of retrocomputing they do. In the minicomputer world, in my opinion, the important stuff are OSes, utilities, languages, diagnostics and "important" applications, but to me the 5 trillion versions of Hangman written in BASIC are not too important. (Others may legitimately disagree.) > >3. Do you need or would like to have the software documentation, in >additional to being a set of instructions for the application or OS, >also as a historical reference? Absolutely! > >4. How difficult/easy is it to get classic software? How many of these >classic apps and OS's do you have, what are some of them, and where >are they housed? Again, it depends. PC stuff is rampant. Commercial OSes for major minicomputers can be had, as well as software that ran on machines that were particular favorites. However, I've been looking for a copy of the Advanced Software System for the RICM's PDP-9, with no success. And if anybody reading this knows where to get a copy, please contact me! > >5. What are some of the advantages of preserving classic software and >is there a downside or disadvantage to saving it? I am reminded here of the old pun, "Fiche or cut byte." Old media and old manuals take up a lot of room, and often need a great deal of TLC. Further, documenting and cataloging take a lot of time, and most of the work is done by volunteers. > >6. How can computer users view, look at this software? Is it loaded >onto systems or just kept boxed up? Some software is available on the web, particularly PDP-8, -10 and -11 stuff, most everything in CP/M, and recently Flex stuff for the 6809. Other things are in boxes waiting for somebody to get to them. > >7. How much cooperation do you get from software companies in terms of >them giving/donating/loaning classic OS's and apps to you. Most of my interest centers around machines whose manufacturers are long out of business. (Which, in some cases, means 6 to 9 months...) > >8. Do you preserve all kind of apps or just ones in more popular >categories, like database, spreadsheets, word processing, etc. > Again, it depends on whose is doing the preservation. >9. Do you also seek to preserve programming languages? If so, which >ones. I'm in favor of preserving every language that can be found. (Yes, even Intercal.) These languages were created to meet certain needs, and are expressions of creative endeavor. Some are better than others, but all should be preserved as a record of history for future scholars, if only to teach them what mistakes not to repeat. > >10. How big and long a project is this? This is literally a never-ending project. > >11. Do computer users have a nostalgic feel for classic software, the >kind of "good old days" of computing and this software brings back >memories of certain hardware they used, etc. Of course. Much of the nostalgia is for the bugs and misfeatures: "Do you remember how we had to....!" > >Please feel free to add anything I missed here. > >Also, please include your name, title, where you are (city/state) will >do, how long been involved in computing, programmer, management, IT, >etc. Mr. Geoffrey G. Rochat, e-mail address as in the return. I've been involved with both the a\hardware and software aspects of computers for 30 years (a newbie!). It is generally poor form to give personal geographic information to newsgroups (un-hacked e-mail returns are bad enough), as there is no telling who reads these things. > >I look forward to hearing from you. > >David > > > >David Noack >Computer Correspondent >Investor's Business Daily >Fax (413) 793-9575 >dnoack@bestweb.net >http://www.investors.com > ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 11:34:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8plf90$3hk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> X-Trace: q93kbtORMq/IZLIBzBe6qFu8bMRNq45+0mHFNCd4dVk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2000 14:40:32 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-119 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63683 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:38:53 -0400, Tim Shoppa >wrote: >>???? Isn't this a very Rube Goldberg-ish solution, especially when >>"normal" card readers are still available commercially that'll >>do the job thousands of times faster? > >Oh, it's certainly non-optimal...but 1) scanners are really, really cheap >these days, and 2) there are many more of them out there than there are card >readers. Oh, and 3) scanners are much less power-hungry than card readers. They also don't need to eat cards. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 11:33:59 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8plf7l$3hk$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: q93kbtORMq/5sc1j00og7CZ4VeCbomqmnukm7wtpjoY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2000 14:39:49 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!bignews.mediaways.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-119 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63686 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Saum writes: > > Jim> For those who missed the card era, electros were images supplied to a > Jim> card vendor to be printed on an entire order of cards. Sometimes these > Jim> were generic, e.g., the very common row-number digits printed in each > Jim> hole position. Sometimes they were company or application specific, > Jim> and could include text, logos, etc. > >Very application specific, with field headings and dividing lines for the >particular card format. And these could be in either keypunch interpreted >form or 514 (? - anyway the interpreter) form which only did 60 columns of >printing across an 80 column card. Using that interpreter was my first exposure to the verb, 2-pass. I hated that interpreter. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0c092.std.com Organization: Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!jsaum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63630 In article <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > Please don't fall into the all too easy trap of, "Computers were >invented in 1981 by Microsoft and Intel". That's patent rubbish. > > Software distribution was carried on via magnetic tape, paper >tape, occasionally source code, and then, only comparitively >recently, on floppies (first, 8-inchers, then 5-1/4 inch "mini- >floppies", and finally now the 3-1/2 incher). CD/ROMs of course, by >comparison, are in their infancy. (Adding to your list of pre-floppy distribution media.) Other punched media in addition to paper tape were two formats of punched cards in the 1950's and 60's and the System/3 minicards in the 70's. IIRC, the 704 Fortran compiler (1957?) was distributed originally in card form. > > Properly cared for, paper tape should last hundreds of years, and >punched Mylar tape is said to be the only "permanent" storage >medium in existance for computer software. Punched cards stored properly should keep well, though I would be nervous about feeding them to high-speed card readers. For retrieving the content from ancient card decks I think a low-speed, very gentle reader would be good; even better would be scanning the cards optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then using software to extract the bits. - Jim Saum ###### Message-ID: <39BB8D60.29D440C6@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:32:16 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 968607136 19304 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.twtelecom.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63699 dnoack@bestweb.net wrote: > > Hi, > > My name is David Noack and I'm a computer correspondent with > Investor's Business Daily, a national business newspaper. > > I'm doing a story about attempts being made to salvage and preserve > old computer software, programs such as DOS versions of Lotus 1-2-3, > VisiCalc, WordStar, etc. "Old"? Those examples are, at most, two decades old. If you want to look at "old" stuff, vast (meaning gigabytes) libraries of software from the 1960's and early 1970's are available on the web right now. See, in particular, http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ and http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/ The stuff at in the PDP-11 archives - in particular the RSTS-11 collections of David Ahl's BASIC games from 1973 at http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/rsts-11-013/ and http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/rsts-11-014/ do have a substantial overlap with early microcomputer activities (i.e. Ahl's book "101 BASIC Computer games" and its sequel.) > The story is basically that while there are a number of groups that > are preserving computer hardware, now efforts are being made to > preserve the other part of the computer industry, OS's and > application. Oh, yes, certainly, I've been archiving the PDP-10 and PDP-11 stuff for decades now. The collections go back five decades. > 2. Since there is so much software, what kind of software should be > saved, whether it's commercial, shareware or freeware? All of it. The PDP-10 collection is a good example: hundreds of megabytes of both commercial software (under the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license) and freeware software (the DECUS PDP-10 collection) are available. > 10. How big and long a project is this? It goes on forever. Not only is it necessary to keep claassic machines and peripherals up and going, it's also necessary to index the stuff and make it available. And then you have to remind the upstarts of what's available every few weeks. > Also, please include your name, title, where you are (city/state) will > do, how long been involved in computing, programmer, management, IT, > etc. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: X@Y.Z.net (Jynx) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> Reply-To: If You Reply Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Date: 10 Sep 2000 18:13:40 GMT Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.105.232.12 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 968609620 19303 63.105.232.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.twtelecom.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63745 On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum scribbled: >.....; even better would be scanning the cards >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >using software to extract the bits. > >- Jim Saum Ain't modern technology great? A 1CPM hollerith card reader! Jonesy -- Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | OS/2 Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | linux __ 7,703' -- 2,345m | frontier.net | DM68mn SK ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 10 Sep 2000 18:18:44 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Sep 10 13:18:44 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Zq7b1k-WcH9fRT (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63657 On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: >For retrieving >the content from ancient card decks I think a low-speed, very gentle >reader would be good; even better would be scanning the cards >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >using software to extract the bits. I've been pondering this; a flatbed scanner with a document feeder should do the job nicely. The software shouldn't be too bad, either. ###### Message-ID: <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:38:53 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 968611133 19298 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed.newsreader.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63702 Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: > >For retrieving > >the content from ancient card decks I think a low-speed, very gentle > >reader would be good; even better would be scanning the cards > >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then > >using software to extract the bits. > > I've been pondering this; a flatbed scanner with a document feeder should do > the job nicely. The software shouldn't be too bad, either. ???? Isn't this a very Rube Goldberg-ish solution, especially when "normal" card readers are still available commercially that'll do the job thousands of times faster? Tim. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 10 Sep 2000 19:26:46 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 9 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Sep 10 14:26:46 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !]n.C1k-WH?@D2O (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63652 On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:38:53 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >???? Isn't this a very Rube Goldberg-ish solution, especially when >"normal" card readers are still available commercially that'll >do the job thousands of times faster? Oh, it's certainly non-optimal...but 1) scanners are really, really cheap these days, and 2) there are many more of them out there than there are card readers. Oh, and 3) scanners are much less power-hungry than card readers. ###### Message-ID: <39BBC51C.3A555BDD@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:30:04 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39BC0E59.DF68E67@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 968621404 14575 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!aconews.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63703 Charles Richmond wrote: > > dnoack@bestweb.net wrote: > > My name is David Noack and I'm a computer correspondent with > > Investor's Business Daily, a national business newspaper. > > > > I'm doing a story about attempts being made to salvage and preserve > > old computer software, programs such as DOS versions of Lotus 1-2-3, > > VisiCalc, WordStar, etc. > > You do *not* sound too technically adept to me...do *not* think that just > because you use a word processor and a spread sheet, that means you know > about computers. If you want to do a credible job with this article, > you need to hire a technical consultant (who knows computers and computer > history) to read over your article...make corrections and suggestions. IMHO, few of the world's museums have anyone on staff that understand the complexities of preserving, archiving, and distributing "classic" (that is, more than 25 year old) software. What chance do we have of convincing J. Random Reporter of the right way to do it if trained professionals don't understand it either? Tim. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:42:33 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 47 Message-ID: <39BC0E59.DF68E67@ev1.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.he.net!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63752 dnoack@bestweb.net wrote: > > Hi, > > My name is David Noack and I'm a computer correspondent with > Investor's Business Daily, a national business newspaper. > > I'm doing a story about attempts being made to salvage and preserve > old computer software, programs such as DOS versions of Lotus 1-2-3, > VisiCalc, WordStar, etc. > > The story is basically that while there are a number of groups that > are preserving computer hardware, now efforts are being made to > preserve the other part of the computer industry, OS's and > application. > > I'd like to hear some stories about classic software, whether you > still use them, what is the name of the app, manufactuer and version > of the software. The questions below are geared toward getting > comments about software preservation. > I think most of your questions can be answered by using an analogy... consider people who collect antique cars. Do they ever run the cars??? Usually...if the car can be put into condition to run. Do they expect their Model-T Ford to perform like the Cadillac they bought last year??? No, but then that is *not* the point... Are their organizations for old cars??? Yes, and a lot of them for different types of cars. etc. etc. etc. One place that collects a lot of old computer manuals (software and hardware) is the Charles Babbage Institute at the University of Minnesota: You might talk to some of the maintainers of this institution. You do *not* sound too technically adept to me...do *not* think that just because you use a word processor and a spread sheet, that means you know about computers. If you want to do a credible job with this article, you need to hire a technical consultant (who knows computers and computer history) to read over your article...make corrections and suggestions. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) From: jot@visi.com (J. Otto Tennant) Lines: 97 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:02:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 968634120 209.98.98.8 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:02:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:02:00 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fu-berlin.de!nntp.flash.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63684 dnoack@bestweb.net writes: [...] >Here are a few questions for your consideration. [...] >3. Do you need or would like to have the software documentation, in >additional to being a set of instructions for the application or OS, >also as a historical reference? Some of this stuff is almost impossible to find. To some extent, the point is merely historical reference. But the manuals for the SDS (later XDS) Fortran IV compiler are interesting in their own sense. The Hacker's Dictionary contains one example. to which I refer you. (The example suggested that the DATA statement was an appropriate way to define PI, "should the value of PI ever change.") There were many other humourous examples in the manual, and, so far as I know, all are lost. [...] >9. Do you also seek to preserve programming languages? If so, which >ones. There is a project to preserve TRAC[tm], which is a language mostly interesting for legal reasons. >10. How big and long a project is this? >11. Do computer users have a nostalgic feel for classic software, the >kind of "good old days" of computing and this software brings back >memories of certain hardware they used, etc. I think that there isn't much nostalgia. One does have a liking for the first editor one used, but that isn't nostalgia. It is more like one has trained the upper spinal cord to certain keystrokes. I tend to work with Unix, or derivatives. Administering a Unix based system is *far* easier than dealing with u$oft: with Unix, if you screw up, you know it is your fault; with u$oft, one is never certain that it is your error or some error in the u$soft crud. I am certainly not nostalgic about the old days. I'm delighted that I don't have to try to tell management that I can fit an AI system into 48KB (that's kilo-bytes) of memory. >Please feel free to add anything I missed here. >Also, please include your name, title, where you are (city/state) will >do, how long been involved in computing, programmer, management, IT, >etc. J. Otto Tennant, 32nd Degree Eagan, MN I've programmed computers for over 30 years. I've managed programmers for five or so of these years, and I've resolved not to do it again. (When I was a hiring manager, without full authority, I resolved to simply toss any resume from the University of . When over-ruled, I had a fine time telling my boss "I told you so.") (I had the interesting duty of being interviewed about one of my employees by the FBI. I very seriously wanted to get this fellow off my budget. I told the agent that he was too dumb to know any serious secrets, but also too dumb to notice being compromised. The result was that he was off my budget; I have no guess what the USSR learned.) >I look forward to hearing from you. >David >David Noack >Computer Correspondent >Investor's Business Daily >Fax (413) 793-9575 >dnoack@bestweb.net >http://www.investors.com -- J.Otto Tennant jotto@pobox.com Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit. Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 11 Sep 2000 02:44:43 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 79 Message-ID: <8phgur$cio@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com.MISMATCH!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63635 > I'm doing a story about attempts being made to salvage and preserve > old computer software, programs such as DOS versions of Lotus 1-2-3, > VisiCalc, WordStar, etc. First off, software existed before the PC. Earlier versions of mainframe software exists too, for the same reasons. For example, have you ever heard of mainframe DOS? Or 1401? > The story is basically that while there are a number of groups that > are preserving computer hardware, now efforts are being made to > preserve the other part of the computer industry, OS's and > application. Are you speaking of preserving things for historical sake, or for continuing business operations? Big difference. > 1. Why is it important to save software? Has any "official" > organization made earlier attempts to save and archive software? It works and is running. Installing new software is expensive. Not only does the product need to be purchased, but time (which is money) must be spent installing the software on all machines, and time spent on training the staff to use it. The staff needs time to get familiar with it. Then data must be converted to the new system. All while regular business operations are going on. For these reasons, I myself use lots of older software. I know it and it works well for me. And many other people feel the same way. They don't get written up in the trade magazines--that's reserved to plug the latest and greatest. But lots of people out there are running plain DOS, Lotus, etc. > 2. Since there is so much software, what kind of software should be > saved, whether it's commercial, shareware or freeware? How is it > determined as to what software will be saved and where and how is the > software obtained in order to be saved? Again, is the saving for historical or business reasons? The origin of the software is irrelevent. The functionality and usefulness is. > 3. Do you need or would like to have the software documentation, in > additional to being a set of instructions for the application or OS, > also as a historical reference? Absolutely. Critical part. > 4. How difficult/easy is it to get classic software? How many of these > classic apps and OS's do you have, what are some of them, and where > are they housed? Very difficult. The manufacturers don't want you to have it--they want you buying the new stuff so it creates a critical mass and everyone else is using the new stuff too. > 11. Do computer users have a nostalgic feel for classic software, the > kind of "good old days" of computing and this software brings back > memories of certain hardware they used, etc. I most certainly do, but others appear not to. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 02:58:00 GMT References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0c052.std.com Organization: Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 46 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!typhoon.sonic.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!world!jsaum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63632 In article <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Jay Maynard wrote: >> >> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: >> >For retrieving >> >the content from ancient card decks I think a low-speed, very gentle >> >reader would be good; even better would be scanning the cards >> >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >> >using software to extract the bits. >> >> I've been pondering this; a flatbed scanner with a document feeder should do >> the job nicely. The software shouldn't be too bad, either. > >???? Isn't this a very Rube Goldberg-ish solution, especially when >"normal" card readers are still available commercially that'll >do the job thousands of times faster? > >Tim. In article , If You Reply wrote: >Ain't modern technology great? A 1CPM hollerith card reader! > >Jonesy Indeed. My point was only that old, fragile, one-of-a-kind decks might be worth very careful handling, because even an occasional card jam in a conventional reader would risk permanent loss of irreplaceable data. I've seen warped decks that would read poorly, if at all, in conventional readers that would probably still be readable by this admittedly hackish approach. The reason high-speed card readers were designed in the first place was that customers wanted to read great volumes of cards throughout the production day. I knew someone who once worked in a tab shop where they had million-card master files. This was the opposite situation from a one-time retrieval for archival purposes, where one is likely to worry a lot more about possible damage to the medium than speed in reading. Of course, if mechanical card-handling technology has now advanced to the level of perfect never-jam card readers, maybe this concern is misplaced. - Jim Saum ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 04:19:09 -0500 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-229-148-156.d.enteract.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.enteract.com 968664098 92182 207.229.148.156 (11 Sep 2000 09:21:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2000 09:21:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63764 On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:55:44 -0400, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >philo wrote: >> >> [In response to Mr. Noack's request for software stories] The good old 80 col punch card? > Software distribution was carried on via magnetic tape, paper >tape, occasionally source code, and then, only comparitively >recently, on floppies (first, 8-inchers, then 5-1/4 inch "mini- >floppies", and finally now the 3-1/2 incher). CD/ROMs of course, by >comparison, are in their infancy. -- arargh (at enteract period com) http://www.arargh.com (Reply address points nowhere in an attempt to foil e-mail spammers.) ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:30:22 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 968679022 808 128.29.251.13 (11 Sep 2000 13:30:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:30:22 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63651 On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: >.....; even better would be scanning the cards >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >using software to extract the bits. But in some cases you might need custom "contrasting background" sheets for each card. Otherwise, how would you be able to scan a card whose electro included large areas of both black and white? In some parts of the card a hole would be surrounded by black; in others by white, or half-and-half. Note to the OP: welcome to the world of thread drift. Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:34:45 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 968679285 946 128.29.251.13 (11 Sep 2000 13:34:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:34:45 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63650 Tim Shoppa writes: >Jay Maynard wrote: >> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: >> >For retrieving >> >the content from ancient card decks I think a low-speed, very gentle >> >reader would be good; even better would be scanning the cards >> >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >> >using software to extract the bits. >> >> I've been pondering this; a flatbed scanner with a document feeder should do >> the job nicely. The software shouldn't be too bad, either. >???? Isn't this a very Rube Goldberg-ish solution, especially when >"normal" card readers are still available commercially that'll >do the job thousands of times faster? I think that Jay's point is that after a few decades of storage (probably under less-than-optimal conditions) the cards are likely to be rather fragile, and a high-speed card reader isn't exactly the most gentle device around. In Ye Olde Days a fanfolded card was an irritation; today it's possibly irreplacable. Sudden (and slightly OT) thought: how many people understand the origin of the term "fanfold?" Joe Morris ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:10:17 GMT References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b060.std.com Organization: Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.mv.net!world!jsaum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63627 In article <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: > >>.....; even better would be scanning the cards >>optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >>using software to extract the bits. > >But in some cases you might need custom "contrasting background" sheets >for each card. Otherwise, how would you be able to scan a card whose >electro included large areas of both black and white? In some parts >of the card a hole would be surrounded by black; in others by white, >or half-and-half. This would definitely be a problem with some electros. Most cards had printing only on one side, so one possibility is scanning them from the back. I don't remember seeing cards with more than one-color printing, so using color as a discriminator, while choosing a background different in color from both the card stock and the ink, might also work. The separate solid (usually pastel) color-band across the top edge on some cards was mostly above the 12-row, so should not cause trouble. For those who missed the card era, electros were images supplied to a card vendor to be printed on an entire order of cards. Sometimes these were generic, e.g., the very common row-number digits printed in each hole position. Sometimes they were company or application specific, and could include text, logos, etc. For production keypunch work one sometimes saw completely blank cards, since everything was both punched and key-verified in batches, so there was less need to make the cards human-readable, or so it was felt. - Jim Saum ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 11 Sep 2000 13:41:48 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 968715709 8918 128.171.80.135 (11 Sep 2000 23:41:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2000 23:41:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63744 >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Saum writes: Jim> For those who missed the card era, electros were images supplied to a Jim> card vendor to be printed on an entire order of cards. Sometimes these Jim> were generic, e.g., the very common row-number digits printed in each Jim> hole position. Sometimes they were company or application specific, Jim> and could include text, logos, etc. Very application specific, with field headings and dividing lines for the particular card format. And these could be in either keypunch interpreted form or 514 (? - anyway the interpreter) form which only did 60 columns of printing across an 80 column card. ###### Message-ID: <39BD73CD.C9B0ED08@sprintmail.com> From: John Ferrell Reply-To: johnferrell@sprintmail.com Organization: Dixie Competition Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:13:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.133.64.178 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 968717632 206.133.64.178 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:13:52 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:13:52 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63685 The same way we reproduced them, upside down & backwards! Do you suppose there is a card reader AND a technician that can make it run still out there? Seriously I believe I saw a keypunch that CDC(?) used for input that had no punch station. It read the cards optically at skip speed. It ought to be pretty easy on the cards. Joe Morris wrote: > On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: > > >.....; even better would be scanning the cards > >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then > >using software to extract the bits. > > But in some cases you might need custom "contrasting background" sheets > for each card. Otherwise, how would you be able to scan a card whose > electro included large areas of both black and white? In some parts > of the card a hole would be surrounded by black; in others by white, > or half-and-half. > > Note to the OP: welcome to the world of thread drift. > > Joe Morris -- John Ferrell in Julian NC, de W8CCW Dixie Competition Products 6241 Phillippi Rd Julian NC 27283 Phone: (336)685-9606 Fax: (336)685-9771 NSRCA 479 AMA 4190 "My Competition is Not My Enemy" ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:21:50 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 26 Message-ID: <39BD771E.EAC4ECAF@prescienttech.com> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39BC0E59.DF68E67@ev1.net> <39BBC51C.3A555BDD@trailing-edge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: llD+1p8SV+Fc7TB04HTHwDoVPdFi/UcbirP4870TED0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2000 00:21:51 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63716 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > IMHO, few of the world's museums have anyone on staff that understand > the complexities of preserving, archiving, and distributing > "classic" (that is, more than 25 year old) software. What chance > do we have of convincing J. Random Reporter of the right way to do > it if trained professionals don't understand it either? That's not entirely fair. The whole notion of "software preservation" is quite new (on the normal scale of things); it is to be expected that we'll have to learn about it as we go along. We had to do that with the notion of computers themselves, too, didn't we? It is important, though, that we don't toss the baby out with the bathwater; we can't just focus on the "everyday relics" of the PC generation. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:20:45 GMT References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0c034.std.com Organization: Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!jsaum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63628 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Saum writes: > > Jim> For those who missed the card era, electros were images supplied to a > Jim> card vendor to be printed on an entire order of cards. Sometimes these > Jim> were generic, e.g., the very common row-number digits printed in each > Jim> hole position. Sometimes they were company or application specific, > Jim> and could include text, logos, etc. > >Very application specific, with field headings and dividing lines for the >particular card format. And these could be in either keypunch interpreted >form or 514 (? - anyway the interpreter) form which only did 60 columns of >printing across an 80 column card. The 514 was a reproducer, often used for duplicating decks. The two interpreters I can find numbers for were the 548 (60 CPM) and the 557 (100 CPM). The 514 was one of the simplest of the card machines to plug-wire. But I remember the more complicated machines, especially the 407, as pretty formidable. During the late 60's various kinds of card equipment survived in computer installations for general use in duplicating, interpreting, and listing decks, all with a few standard plugboards that had been wired long before. Except in the few remaining tab shops, nobody was doing any new plugboard wiring for such machines. For some of us comfortable with electronic computers but too young to have lived through the card-only era, seeing a fully-wired 407 board was like beholding alien technology that works but nobody understands anymore. I tried reading the 407 manual for a few hours once, and came away with newfound respect for the people who had once built real applications on them. - Jim Saum ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:15:53 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 968771986 129.85.24.56 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:19:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:19:46 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63767 On Mon, 11 Sep 2000 02:58:00 GMT, jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) wrote: >In article <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa > wrote: > >>Jay Maynard wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: >>> >For retrieving >>> >the content from ancient card decks I think a low-speed, very gentle >>> >reader would be good; even better would be scanning the cards >>> >optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then >>> >using software to extract the bits. >>> >>> I've been pondering this; a flatbed scanner with a document feeder should do >>> the job nicely. The software shouldn't be too bad, either. >> >>???? Isn't this a very Rube Goldberg-ish solution, especially when >>"normal" card readers are still available commercially that'll >>do the job thousands of times faster? >> >>Tim. > >In article , If You Reply > wrote: > >>Ain't modern technology great? A 1CPM hollerith card reader! >> >>Jonesy > >Indeed. My point was only that old, fragile, one-of-a-kind decks might >be worth very careful handling, because even an occasional card jam in >a conventional reader would risk permanent loss of irreplaceable data. >I've seen warped decks that would read poorly, if at all, in >conventional readers that would probably still be readable by this >admittedly hackish approach. > >The reason high-speed card readers were designed in the first place >was that customers wanted to read great volumes of cards throughout >the production day. I knew someone who once worked in a tab shop where >they had million-card master files. This was the opposite situation >from a one-time retrieval for archival purposes, where one is likely >to worry a lot more about possible damage to the medium than speed in >reading. Of course, if mechanical card-handling technology has now >advanced to the level of perfect never-jam card readers, maybe this >concern is misplaced. I don't know about new card readers, but an old one (CR-11) I used in 1980's on PDP-11/34 was very gentle and pretty fast, too - ISTR 200 cpm? I remember playing a trick to impress my cow orker (from different department, that used exclusively mainframes): took a card, made a boll of it, them straitened it somewhat with my fist and fed it into the reader. It didn't even hiccup. The mainframe (USSR clone of IBM/360) card readers were very fussy about strait cards with lint, or, God forbid, creases - as most of you know, they used pushing feeder with the working edge one card thickness high. This reader used a different feeding mechanism: it had a pulling feed "knuckle" which held the card by the plane with air pressure (sucking through lots of small holes). Plus the bottom of the deck (~30 cards) was ruffled by an air jet. -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: "Philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:54:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.250.192.193 X-Trace: 968792237 news.twtelecom.net 23900 207.250.192.193 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.twtelecom.net!news.twtelecom.net!news.twtelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63809 a few days have passed and i decided to check back here...some good comments...thank you Carl... yes...i forgot that i still have a stack of punch cards from the first (and last) computer programming course i took in 1968. Philo ps: for anyone who ever took a computer course and had to use punch cards ...& then continued in the field of computer science...i heartily congratulate you!!! ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:19:01 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 17 Message-ID: <39BEC7F5.86E46D3C@prescienttech.com> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: aeTdTklbfYL0cVVqkPoTG6HgQqaGGsKEe3kCwEiLn3s= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2000 00:19:02 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63800 Philo wrote: > > a few days have passed and i decided to check back here...some good > comments...thank you Carl... > yes...i forgot that i still have a stack of punch cards from the > first (and last) computer programming course i took in 1968. I admit it! I forgot about cards. My apologies. I stand humbled, or at least tabulated into the proper bin. :-) -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <39BEE2FE.FC927674@cmc.com> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:14:22 -0700 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.90.88 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 968811364 4245 207.154.90.88 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-in.nibble.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63816 Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote: > I don't know about new card readers, but an old one (CR-11) > I used in 1980's on PDP-11/34 was very gentle and pretty fast, > too - ISTR 200 cpm? http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/cr11-2.jpg Made by Documation, and relabeled by Digital Eqt. The picture referenced above looks like it must have been a video capture (notice how the card entering the output hopper is striped because it advanced between the two interlaced half-frames). -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277 ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 09:35:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8pqh28$jd1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: lrIm32pqBvFutccp74Al/WlH+DOvd6aZYj6M4kobcPU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2000 12:41:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-216 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63866 In article <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: I've been waiting and waiting and waiting but nobody's answered: >Sudden (and slightly OT) thought: how many people understand the >origin of the term "fanfold?" I thought I did; the fact that you're asking the question now tells me I don't. You know...you asked the question incorrectly since only those who understand would reply. Thus, nobody replied :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 09:45:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8pqhlf$jd1$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39C0C4F8.492CA5C4@pd.jaring.my> X-Trace: HRoakvU9t4lyLtItKeqit0IEtA0pSppcG7w1mSJl/x0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2000 12:51:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-216 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63874 In article <39C0C4F8.492CA5C4@pd.jaring.my>, Steve Kellett wrote: > > >Philo wrote: >[snip] >> for anyone who ever took a computer course and had to use punch cards ..& >> then continued in the field of computer science...i heartily congratulate >> you!!! > >Yup. A four-week COBOL course at ICL's Beaumont Training Centre in 1982. > >Yeah, they were still using coding sheets & a card-punching service. >Program edits could be punched up on your own cards that were inserted >at the start of the program source stack. Yup. Once upon a time, the people downstairs were trying to sell some company a PDP-10 and had a whole bunch of those people in. Among them were two COBOL programmers and nobody knew how to talk to them. Our cost center manager stopped by my office and asked if I knew how to program in COBOL. I spend a minute trying to figure out all ramification of answering yes...decided to live dangerously and said yes. I got to talk to those two poor customer programmers. They explained to me what they did which was that code form, desk check, submit, twiddle thumbs, repeat. I tried to explain to them what a timesharing system was. I failed; there is no common ground between the two concepts. I finally got a brilliant idea; had them come to my office which was a slight no-no (customers should be confined to conference rooms and not allowed to wander). I unearthed a COBOL program; edited a bug into the program, explaining all the while what I was doing. I let the two guys watch me. Then I typed out the program. Compiled it where it gave the error; did an edit to correct the error. Did a recompile. One guy was absolutely terrified. The other guy got extremely excited. What I did in two minutes usually took them a week. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Peter Ingham Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:07:51 +1200 Organization: Private Site Reply-To: ping@actrix.gen.nz Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BEC7F5.86E46D3C@prescienttech.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.55.58 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.55.58 X-Trace: 14 Sep 2000 08:17:23 NZST, 203.96.55.58 Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!feeder.via.net!ihug.co.nz!news.iprolink.co.nz!news.actrix.gen.nz!203.96.55.58 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63836 "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >Philo wrote: >> >> a few days have passed and i decided to check back here...some good >> comments...thank you Carl... >> yes...i forgot that i still have a stack of punch cards from the >> first (and last) computer programming course i took in 1968. > > I admit it! I forgot about cards. My apologies. I stand humbled, >or at least tabulated into the proper bin. :-) I'll see your punched cards and raise you a sheaf of coding sheets. I have an example of a (wonderful) piece of software that I coded. The project was cancelled before the coding sheets even made it into the punchroom! -- Peter S Ingham ping@actrix.gen.nz Lower Hutt, New Zealand ###### From: Steve Kellett Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:30:48 +0800 Organization: Unconfigured Lines: 21 Message-ID: <39C0C4F8.492CA5C4@pd.jaring.my> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: j9.bkj64.jaring.my Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.attap.net!infeed.jaring.my!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63847 Philo wrote: [snip] > for anyone who ever took a computer course and had to use punch cards ...& > then continued in the field of computer science...i heartily congratulate > you!!! Yup. A four-week COBOL course at ICL's Beaumont Training Centre in 1982. Yeah, they were still using coding sheets & a card-punching service. Program edits could be punched up on your own cards that were inserted at the start of the program source stack. BTW, ICL's default editor on their OpenVME Mainframes (the smallest of which now runs on a single Pentium Pro 200 Mhz processor) SD (or ED for the non screen-based variant) is still single-pass :) Hell, was that really eighteen years ago? Cheers - Steve Kellett ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <968939862.148187@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 10 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:57:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 968939863 203.96.152.26 (Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:57:43 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:57:43 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63896 Joe Morris wrote: >Sudden (and slightly OT) thought: how many people understand the >origin of the term "fanfold?" I always assumed it was because the paper folded the same sort of way as those silly paper fans we made as kids -- a sheet of paper, folded into a zig-zag, and the zig-zag stapled together at one end and fanned out at the other. -- don ###### Message-ID: <39C118D1.E396AC85@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <39BEE2FE.FC927674@cmc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:31:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.120.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net 968956317 63.15.120.88 (Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:31:57 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:31:57 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63861 Lars Poulsen wrote: > Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote: > > I don't know about new card readers, but an old one (CR-11) > > I used in 1980's on PDP-11/34 was very gentle and pretty fast, > > too - ISTR 200 cpm? > > http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/cr11-2.jpg > > Made by Documation, and relabeled by Digital Eqt. The picture > referenced above looks like it must have been a video capture > (notice how the card entering the output hopper is striped > because it advanced between the two interlaced half-frames). Its a Documation M300. Speaking of this, I've just become aware of where I might be able to get a beat up but apparently working pair of Documation M200's. (The 200 is smaller than the 300 and not quite as reliable or rugged or able to read just about anything.) (Chris still kicking himself for passing on a pair of almost new 300's for free, six years or so ago :-) With two I should be able to keep one of them running. However, they don't have any docs for them. Does anyone have the docs and/or does anyone know of a design for an interface to a PC printer port? Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:26:45 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <39C06FA5.6506@azstarnet.com> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63929 Jim Saum wrote: > > In article <8pimpe$p8$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe > Morris) wrote: > > >On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:09 GMT, Jim Saum wrote: > > > >>.....; even better would be scanning the cards > >>optically on a flat-bed scanner against a contrasting background, then > >>using software to extract the bits. > > > >But in some cases you might need custom "contrasting background" sheets > >for each card. Otherwise, how would you be able to scan a card whose > >electro included large areas of both black and white? In some parts > >of the card a hole would be surrounded by black; in others by white, > >or half-and-half. > > This would definitely be a problem with some electros. Most cards had > printing only on one side, so one possibility is scanning them from > the back. I don't remember seeing cards with more than one-color > printing, so using color as a discriminator, while choosing a > background different in color from both the card stock and the ink, > might also work. Why not just use a flatbed scanner with a transparency adapter? Bill Tucson, AZ ###### Message-ID: <39C11AEE.982E82AD@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:41:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.120.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net 968956860 63.15.120.88 (Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:41:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:41:00 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63967 Joe Morris wrote: > I think that Jay's point is that after a few decades of storage (probably > under less-than-optimal conditions) the cards are likely to be rather > fragile, and a high-speed card reader isn't exactly the most gentle > device around. What I've found is that the individual cards sometimes get thicker as they absorb moisture from the air. Whether these are still readable awaits a card reader (see previous post). Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Michael Umbricht Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:40:07 -0400 Organization: Ocean State Free-Net Lines: 46 Message-ID: <39C153C7.20034783@shrimp.osfn.org> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4c) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63976 Hello, dnoack@bestweb.net wrote: > > I'd like to hear some stories about classic software, whether you > still use them, what is the name of the app, manufactuer and version > of the software. The questions below are geared toward getting > comments about software preservation. Here are some answers to the questions that you posted, in no particular order. I am a member of the Retro-Computing Society of RI. We are a non-profit organization that collects and preserves not only computer hardware, but also software, documentation, print sets and ephemera. We have been pursuing this mission since 1994. We typically receive software along with a donation of hardware. We preserve all materials related to the computer systems that are accepted into the collection. When we are offered a donation, we specifically inquire about documentation. It would be rather difficult to list our entire collection. RCS has a library at our facility in Providence, RI that contains items dating from as early as the 1960's forward. Just to give you one example - in the collection we have a Packard Bell 250 mini-computer (no relation to the modern Packard Bell, this system dates to 1961) with an extensive array of software and documentation. Most of the software is stored on punched paper tape, and it includes both user written software, and vendor supplied programs. We hold an open house on the third Saturday of each month. Our next open house is this Sat. Sept. 16, visit our website at http://www.osfn.org/rcs for details and directions. We choose a different topic for each month and try to have example systems running for visitors to see. Feel free to contact me if you would like additional information, or if you have any specific questions. -mikeu Michael Umbricht RCS/RI ###### From: mxflxanxge@xstuxdexntxs.wixsc.edu (Mark) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:04:17 -0600 Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39C0C4F8.492CA5C4@pd.jaring.my> <8pqhlf$jd1$8@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ras-c5800-1-48-66.dialup.wisc.edu X-Trace: news.doit.wisc.edu 968975836 13900 128.104.48.66 (14 Sep 2000 23:57:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@doit.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2000 23:57:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!ras-c5800-1-48-66.dialup.wisc.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63986 In article <8pqhlf$jd1$8@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > One guy was absolutely terrified. The other guy got extremely > excited. What I did in two minutes usually took them a week. > Thanks, that brought back fond memories of the first time I was introduced to time-sharing, after spending a year of my life filling out coding sheets and waiting for keypunching and batch compiles. Needless to say, I wasn't the least bit terrified, but some of my colleagues were (and still are :-). > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. -- Mark Lange (there are no x's in my e-address) ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:34:32 -0400 Organization: Kersur Technologies Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8ps4qv$a5u$1@news.kersur.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39C0C4F8.492CA5C4@pd.jaring.my> <8pqhlf$jd1$8@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 01-031.024.popsite.net X-Trace: news.kersur.net 968988319 10430 216.126.160.31 (15 Sep 2000 03:25:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kersur.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2000 03:25:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.kersur.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:63982 >> >>Philo wrote: >>[snip] >>> for anyone who ever took a computer course and had to use punch cards >..& >>> then continued in the field of computer science...i heartily >congratulate >>> you!!! >> >>Yup. A four-week COBOL course at ICL's Beaumont Training Centre in 1982. >> >>Yeah, they were still using coding sheets & a card-punching service. >>Program edits could be punched up on your own cards that were inserted >>at the start of the program source stack. > > > Somewhere in my plunder trove is a 2000 card deck of a Quinn-McCluskey Boolean minimization program I wrote in 360 BAL for a 360/65 running OS/MVT, for a required undergrad course at Brooklyn Poly circa 1978. By the second lecture of the course the professor, Henry Rudd (author, IIRC, of "Introduction to PL/1"), realized that I was making a good living programming IBM Series/1s in assembler for Citibank (Hey, I was paid by the hour! 'Sure helped with the tuition bills.), and asked me why I had enrolled in his course. I reminded him it was a department requirement and I did intend to graduate some day, so he told me to get lost, take the final and write a decent 360 assembler program as an independent project. When I told him what I intended to do he got a twinkle in his eye and asked me if I knew what I was getting into. When I said I thought so, he let me go ahead. It took me 18 months to pass that bloody course, but I *did* ace it. And in all that time I managed to drop and scatter the deck only once... Maybe that explains why I became a computer hardware engineer (favorite language: solder). ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 15 Sep 2000 13:14:08 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8pt7b0$cqo$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> <39C11AEE.982E82AD@earthlink.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!nntp-cust.primenet.com!natasha.rmii.com!abq.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!tornews.torolab.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64049 In <39C11AEE.982E82AD@earthlink.net>, jchausler writes: > > >Joe Morris wrote: > >> I think that Jay's point is that after a few decades of storage (probably >> under less-than-optimal conditions) the cards are likely to be rather >> fragile, and a high-speed card reader isn't exactly the most gentle >> device around. > >What I've found is that the individual cards sometimes get thicker as they >absorb moisture from the air. Whether these are still readable awaits a >card reader (see previous post). > >Chris >AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE >$$ > > Ever see what happens when a guy drops two boxes of cards into a snow bank? It isn't pretty. :-( Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 15 Sep 2000 14:54:39 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> <8pqh28$jd1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 969065679 29448 128.171.80.135 (16 Sep 2000 00:54:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2000 00:54:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64064 >>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: /BAH> In article <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org>, /BAH> jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: /BAH> I've been waiting and waiting and waiting but nobody's answered: >> Sudden (and slightly OT) thought: how many people understand the >> origin of the term "fanfold?" /BAH> I thought I did; the fact that you're asking the question now /BAH> tells me I don't. You know...you asked the question incorrectly /BAH> since only those who understand would reply. Thus, nobody /BAH> replied :-). OK, I'll bite :-) Oriental fans have paper between splines. To get the fans in their contracted form, the paper is folded alternately. Fanfold printer paper is likewise folded alternately. Paper tape that jams at the output tends to become so. Good card jams produce the same form. Do I pass? Nothead ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 16 Sep 2000 08:45:34 GMT Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> <8pqh28$jd1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eskimo.com X-Trace: eskinews.eskimo.com 969093934 8047 204.122.16.13 (16 Sep 2000 08:45:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eskimo.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2000 08:45:34 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.eskimo.com!eskimo.com!dpeschel Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64047 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >OK, I'll bite :-) Oriental fans have paper between splines. To get the >fans in their contracted form, the paper is folded alternately. Fanfold >printer paper is likewise folded alternately. Paper tape that jams at the >output tends to become so. Good card jams produce the same form. I would say you're probably right, but only Joe Morris knows the answer he actually had in mind. Now, my point -- Until Joe posted his question, I never connected fanfold paper with Oriental fans, bcause the folds in the paper are just too big to compare. But when Joe mentioned fanfold _cards_, I suddenly had a vivid "Aha! Of course that has to be the answer" reaction. (We lived in Japan and so I am very familiar with Japanese fans.) Did you kow you used another obscure term? These days splines are mathematical curves created according to various formulas and used in computer graphics. They are used to draw all kinds of curved lines including the outlines of TrueType and PostScript fonts. But originally, of course, they were something else. I already know the answer, so I won't say, but we'll see if anyone else knows. :) -- Derek ###### From: william.hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:13:37 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <39c86fa5.3006498@news.nashville.com> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> <8pqh28$jd1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64032 On 16 Sep 2000 08:45:34 GMT, dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) wrote: >Did you kow you used another obscure term? These days splines are >mathematical curves created according to various formulas and used >in computer graphics. A spline is a thin strip of wood. Draftsmen use splines to draw curves, which is why splines in mathematics are called splines. ###### From: "Kevin G. Rhoads" Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8plf90$3hk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Message-ID: <01c01f70$161a6280$0100007f@stupidwin95> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:29:39 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-32-101-160-79.ma.us.prserv.net 32.101.160.79 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpmsnbbsb04!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64004 What is the similarity between 1) electromechanical unit record machinery and 2) clothes dryers Both can make items disappear in contradiction to the laws of conservation os mass-energy. (For 2, it is socks, usually. For 1, the card that is most difficult to recreate (some obscure JCL thing, for example)) -- Kevin G. Rhoads, Ph.D. (Do NOT duplicate binary cards on the 029's! That's what the 026's are for.) kgrhoads@NO_SPAM.alum.mit.edu ###### From: "Kevin G. Rhoads" Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39be98ac$0$23900$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <01c01f7c$67b38d40$0100007f@stupidwin95> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:29:41 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-32-101-160-79.ma.us.prserv.net 32.101.160.79 Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpmsnbbsb04!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64017 >ps: >for anyone who ever took a computer course and had to use punch cards ...& >then continued in the field of computer science...i heartily congratulate >you!!! Better cards than paper tape, for my taste, at least. Although DECTape was nice, most of the machines I used didn't have it, only paper tape. I preferred 029's, or even 026's to ASR-33's. High speed paper tape readers and punches just made the disparity less, cards were still better. However, floppies, particularly as the technology matured, were better. Personally, I feel the the HD 5.25" was the peak, and the hard-shell 3.5" format represents a step backward in many ways. What is amusing is that people at work ooh and aah when I bring in cards or 8" floppies, but 1/2" tapes are a total ehh? so? reaction. Curious. -- Kevin G. Rhoads, Ph.D. (The Cheshire Cat for official Internet mascot.) kgrhoads@NO_SPAM.alum.mit.edu ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 16 Sep 2000 18:45:16 +0300 Organization: Compugen, Ltd. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> <8pqh28$jd1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 969119116 22375 194.90.227.168 (16 Sep 2000 15:45:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:45:16 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64069 dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: [...] > Did you kow you used another obscure term? These days splines are > mathematical curves created according to various formulas and used > in computer graphics. They are used to draw all kinds of curved lines > including the outlines of TrueType and PostScript fonts. But originally, > of course, they were something else. I already know the answer, so I won't > say, but we'll see if anyone else knows. :) Splines are minimal-energy solutions of a system of constraints at fixed points on the coordinates and first derivatives of a curve. In other words, a thin flexible wooden strip, used to draw, well, spline curves. Interestingly, the Hebrew word also means thin flexible wooden strip. But it's best known from a Biblical use -- it's the rod you shouldn't spare your son... -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:54:59 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8q054j$gj$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8plf90$3hk$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <01c01f70$161a6280$0100007f@stupidwin95> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 969119699 531 134.117.136.30 (16 Sep 2000 15:54:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:54:59 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newnews.netizen.com.au!news.leftmind.net!news.onramp.ca!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64020 "Kevin G. Rhoads" (kgrhoads@NoSpam.alum.mit.edu) writes: ... > For 1, the card that is > most > difficult to recreate (some obscure JCL thing, for example)) You did keep your coding form as a backup, didn't you? My remaining ASM 360 coding forms are great for screen design - 24 or 25 lines at 80 columns per line. Each cell is larger than those in the printer layout forms, which I can't locate this moment. ###### From: wiss@eelwing.arda (Jonas Wissting) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:41:12 +0200 Organization: Utfors AB Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8us0q8.h7.ln@luthien.arda> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <50C5ADC93D2CD51D.91F7D00E436E3728.627997B03878BCDD@lp.airnews.net> <39BB9CFD.5A401887@trailing-edge.com> <8pin1l$ti$1@top.mitre.org> <8pqh28$jd1$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: md46920ed.utfors.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: yggdrasil.utfors.se 969181234 21072 212.105.32.237 (17 Sep 2000 09:00:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utfors.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2000 09:00:34 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.utfors.se!luthien.arda!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64098 In article , Ariel Scolnicov writes: > dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > > [...] > >> Did you kow you used another obscure term? These days splines are >> mathematical curves created according to various formulas and used >> in computer graphics. They are used to draw all kinds of curved lines >> including the outlines of TrueType and PostScript fonts. But originally, >> of course, they were something else. I already know the answer, so I won't >> say, but we'll see if anyone else knows. :) > > Splines are minimal-energy solutions of a system of constraints at > fixed points on the coordinates and first derivatives of a curve. > > In other words, a thin flexible wooden strip, used to draw, well, > spline curves. > > Interestingly, the Hebrew word also means thin flexible wooden strip. > But it's best known from a Biblical use -- it's the rod you shouldn't > spare your son... A homogenius flexible strip forms a cubic-interpolated-spline-curv between its fixed points, 2 times contiuus derivable, one 3rd order polynomial for each section, a picewice first order polynomial curv is also called a spline. Jonas -- http://wiss.unx.nu http://linux.unx.nu Another Glitch in the Call We don't need no indirection We don't need no flow control No data typing or declarations Did you leave the lists alone? Hey! Hacker! Leave those lists alone! Chorus: All in all, it's just a pure-LISP function call. All in all, it's just a pure-LISP function call. ###### From: shannon@escape.shannon.net (Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments Date: 21 Sep 2000 14:32:20 -0400 Organization: 32-bit Message-ID: <8qdk7k$mgb$1@escape.shannon.net> References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64468 In article <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com>, > Sometimes reading the media (whatever you care to name) is > impossible because the technology to do so is gone. (Have a look > at "The Dead Media Project" for details.) Too, just because you How about a URL of the one you are talking about. A quick google search shows several different projects with that name. -- -- shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ ______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexenstentialist "Castles are sacked in war, Chieftains are scattered far, Truth is a fixed star, Eileen aroon!" -- Gerald Griffin ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Seeking Classic Software Story Comments References: <39bb0080.10839714@nntp.bestweb.net> <39bb7874$0$23903$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com> <8qdk7k$mgb$1@escape.shannon.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 24 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:54:05 EDT Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:54:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:64397 In article <8qdk7k$mgb$1@escape.shannon.net>, Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article <39BB84D0.F36E234D@prescienttech.com>, > >> Sometimes reading the media (whatever you care to name) is >> impossible because the technology to do so is gone. (Have a look >> at "The Dead Media Project" for details.) Too, just because you > >How about a URL of the one you are talking about. A quick google >search shows several different projects with that name. Google for dead-media project returns a lot of web pages in different domains, but all of the first ten (except for the "media history project" page, which has, ironically, a dead link to what must once have been an archive of Dead Media Working Notes) refer to the same project: originally started by Bruce Sterling, currently under the tender care of Tom Jennings. -- Kragen Sitaker Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we ourselves possess. -- Gandalf the Grey [J.R.R. Tolkien, "Lord of the Rings"]