Reply-To: "Insh_Allah" From: "Insh_Allah" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: TOPS-20 comnd jsys - questions about the interface and particular details Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:29:57 +0200 Organization: Bermuda Triangle Services Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Lines: 175 Message-ID: <398d83cf$0$26063@reader3> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4dyn36.dh.casema.net X-Trace: reader3 965575631 26063 212.64.4.36 X-Complaints-To: http://www.casema.net/abuse X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to include a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Server-Date: 06 Aug 2000 15:27:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.kpn.net!news.kpn.net!cleanfeed.casema.net!news.casema.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61376 Hi folks, Sorry, big message. All about tops-20 COMND JSYS details. Can't stop myself. Unfortunately I was still in diapers when the big machines ruled the earth ;-) (was born in '69) To compensate I'm into 'commandline parsing' as some folks are into writing kernels. (Yup, I know. "Get a life" they say :-) ) Looking for and thinking about the 'Ultimate Commandline I/F', I found descriptions (and C source emulating it) of the TOPS-20 COMND JSYS system call a while back. And I finally saw the light. Halelujah. Being a longtime C hacker, I've looked around for C sources emulating the COMND JSYS interface. I found 'ccmd' (which came with mm, a mail reader) and c-kermit 7.0, which also has a C implementation of what looks like the majority of the comnd jsys features. I have searched the net for any texts and sample command entry sessions on tops-20 comnd jsys, found quite some global descriptions, but only very few things that showed some actual 'trace' of a command edit session, inclusing 'noise words' (between brackets), online help/hinting using '?' at the start, middle or end of a command or option, etc. I've taken the CCMD source code, compared it's features, etc. against the Kermit 7 stuff (CCMD has more 'detail' it seems) and am porting this stuff to ANSI C (and my own environments (Win32+dos Console, linux, embedded)). It works... a bit. Busy debugging and all that ;-) CCMD is nice (it even has documentation. Wow! :-)) ) but I'd like to know how 'close' this thing emulates the real stuff... As I have enjoyed this group for a while (why had history lessons at school to be so bloody boring? _this_ newsgroup is fun!), I would be interested to know if somebody out there can help me answer any of these: * help & hinting (the '?' key): - you enter just a '?'. Did you get a list of commands? (I assume 'yes') Were these simply listed or did they include a little description of what they actually did? (I assume 'no', but I could imagine you would like that if you were looking for a certain command you didn't know yet. For instance: I'd want to calculate some stuff as I've got to pay my taxes (it happens -( ). Now unix 'calc' would be a bit meager, but how would I find the proper tool on tops-20? Or should I _know_ (by asking the sysadmin) that the locally installed spreadsheet program would be named 'spreadsheet'? I know you need to know _some_ stuff before you can sit behind a computer a have it do something sensible; I'm curious how 'low' the tolerable 'expert level' could be when you sat down behind a tops-20 console the first time you'd do _something_ with these computers...) - you enter part of a command (still ambiguous) and hit '?': did you get a list of 'matching' commands? (I assume 'yes') - you enter a non-ambiguous command (or abbreviation) and hit '?', did you see the full name of the command (?) and a list or description of accepted options and parameters? (I've worked on VMS and it had 'help' that was quite extensive for saome of these things.) - I understand you could type a command word, hit enter and 'discover' it required parameters as it got reprinted with additional 'noise words' that hinted you in the proper direction: : copy[Enter] -> : copy (from file) _ This went on until you 'completed' the command. (I saw this in one of the texts I found on the net) This is correct? (oh, boy. This is _cool_ :-) ) - if you entered a non-abiguous command and hit [esc] to trigger 'completion' (ccmd uses [tab]) it is reprinted 'complete' _plus_ additional 'noise words' to hint what should be next: : cop[esc] -> : copy (from file) _ This is true? (I assume 'yes') Any nifty 'caveats' here? - VMS has switches with mandatory or optional arguments a bit like this: '/option:arg'. I suppose tops-20 had the same. What happened if you hit '?' after typing the 'switch' character '/' (list of switches?) or part of a switch parameter ('/opt?' when you meant '/option')? * command and parameter completion: - CCMD supports (not easily portable to embedded systems :-( ) filename completion. c-kermit supports various flags that indicate that the command at hand accepts some of these: + input files (i.e. filename _must_ exist) + output filename (i.e. filename _may_ exist; you might be ok typing a non-exiting filename) + existing directory (i.e. it must be an existing directory name; this one I came up with myself so you'd be able to 'filter' input for a 'chdir' type command. I don't know if tops-20 could do this.) + non-existing directory (e.g. 'mkdir' type command support. ) I know some unix shells (tcsh, bash) show a list of filenames if you hit the 'completion key' twice [tab]; did you need to type '?' on tops-20? What if you typed [esc] completion once? (I assume your console beeped if the typed entry was ambiguous) and twice? (I don't have a clue. I hope it showed a list of 'matching' filenames?) * misc & general: - Any (weird or important) details I might need/like to know? (Whoops, I guess I'm asking too much of a 'good thing' now, but does someone have a comnd jsys 'programmers/users manual' in some digital format so I can check it out? (scanned, text, whatever)) I know I shouldn't blab so much in a single news message, it's not polite. I didn't know how to 'compress' it well, so I've tried to state my business in the header & subject line. If you feel like sharing some knowledge about tops-20 command line interface (or comnd jsys programmers interface) I'd appreciate it very much. My intention is to model my stuff as close to tops-20 as possible while adding 'selectable' additional features if I ever need any. As far as I read in the texts I found, comnd jsys was quite complete and properly thought through. (contrary to some incongruate commandline i/f's (e.g. dos)) Thank you for your time and I hope to hear from you. I monitor this newgroup quite frequently so no 'reply to email please' plea here ;-) -- Groetjes/Greetinx, Ger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ger Hobbelt a.k.a. Insh_Allah (remove all 'f' and 'g') ig_fa@fwanfadfoof.nl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You're a modern day Man, You Chat, Email and ICQ whenever you can. Me, I'm rather square, I like to Talk to people anywhere. 'cause looking at her Eyes, beats querty by far at 'Nice'. ###### Reply-To: "Insh_Allah" From: "Insh_Allah" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <398d83cf$0$26063@reader3> Subject: Re: TOPS-20 comnd jsys - questions about the interface and particular details Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 03:19:56 +0200 Organization: Bermuda Triangle Services Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Lines: 48 Message-ID: <398f5f8d$0$11890@reader2> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4dyn36.dh.casema.net X-Trace: reader2 965697421 11890 212.64.4.36 X-Complaints-To: http://www.casema.net/abuse X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to include a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Server-Date: 08 Aug 2000 01:17:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nexus.news.chello.be!news.tvd.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!news.casema.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61530 Hi folks, I am very happy to have received quite a few very helpful responses. Many thanks to: Hans Liss, Patrick Scheible and Dworkin. I was thinking about collating their responses and posting them here. However, after pondering the situation for a while I've decided not to do this. If you want to know more, I think it would save quite a bit of AFC bandwidth if you'd just email-ed me to inquire about the material. OTOH, here's a few links that proved invaluable in the end: ftp://ftp.biostat.washington.edu/pub/pdp-10/jsys/ -- contains info files with all the JSYS system call descriptions. Very much recommended! http://www.trailing-edge.com/ -- for all your software :-) http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ -- the C-Kermit project. Which uses TOPS-20 style commandline editting/parsing. http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/ -- (especially note the Paul Allen link!) http://swallow.doc.ic.ac.uk/packages/mail/mm/ -- the CCMD (TOPS-20 alike commandline parser package) and MM (mail reader) package, which uses TOPS-20 style command entry. Groetjes/Greetinx, Ger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ger Hobbelt a.k.a. Insh_Allah (remove all 'f' and 'g') ig_fa@fwanfadfoof.nl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You're a modern day Man, You Chat, Email and ICQ whenever you can. Me, I'm rather square, I like to Talk to people anywhere. 'cause looking at her Eyes, beats querty by far at 'Nice'. ###### Reply-To: "Insh_Allah" From: "Insh_Allah" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <398d83cf$0$26063@reader3> <398f5f8d$0$11890@reader2> Subject: Re: TOPS-20 comnd jsys - questions about the interface and particular details Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 02:58:17 +0200 Organization: Bermuda Triangle Services Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Lines: 51 Message-ID: <39934ee3$0$19456@reader2> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4dyn17.dh.casema.net X-Trace: reader2 965955299 19456 212.64.4.17 X-Complaints-To: http://www.casema.net/abuse X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to include a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Server-Date: 11 Aug 2000 00:54:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!cleanfeed.casema.net!news.casema.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61776 A few readers of a.f.c. have asked me to post the email-answers I got following my questions about TOPS-20 COMND% JSYS and the CCMD C library, posted there. (Subject line equal to this one) As the collated result, including attachments, is *huge* (a .txt.gz file of 241KB) I'll only provide a pointer to my website where I've the stored the file: http://home.wanadoo.nl/i_a/tops-20/a.f.c.newsgroup/COMND.emails.txt.gz I think this is the best way of providing the information to 'the general public' without overloading a.f.c. with a single post. Note: Since the Wanadoo webserver is kinda backwards it reports the mime-type as 'text/plain', but I've test-downloaded the GZIPped file and it is OK. Maybe you might also wish to look at the page, listing all the stuff I've collected so far (and a very-very-alpha-stage partial port to ANSI C of CCMD) at: http://home.wanadoo.nl/i_a/tops-20/tops20index.html Note: I've cross-posted this to alt.sys.pdp10 as well as I've been hinted that there many people gather who might even still have running TOPS-20 machines and/or might know a bit more about some details. (On request the mail-adresses in the collated text file on my website have been 'patched' to obstruct spammers in search of adresses to abuse.) -- Groetjes/Greetinx, Ger ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ger Hobbelt a.k.a. Insh_Allah (remove all 'f' and 'g') ig_fa@fwanfadfoof.nl ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You're a modern day Man, You Chat, Email and ICQ whenever you can. Me, I'm rather square, I like to Talk to people anywhere. 'cause looking at her Eyes, beats querty by far at 'Nice'.