From: David Razler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.com Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:29:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.65.35 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 964524587 12.79.65.35 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:29:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:29:47 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60548 On 24 Jul 2000 19:00:55 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >Doubtful. >X-MPs were not only faster but they had more memory and were >instruction set compatable. A 1 will still read or write faster than >any PC, but it's memory is so proportionally small that it would be >ridiculous to run. EXCEPT for look-and-feel historical/sociological purposes - valuable insights into the "past" we lose every time we shut down the last-of-its-kind machine. Seeing a Cray-1 like the decommissioned model in the Smithsonian is looking at a piece of history, about as true-to-life as using one as a dodo in formalin. Oh, we can look at the way Sy solved the Problems of the Day with lots of miniature coax, chose an optimal physical layout and, for vanity and design, upolstered the power supply covers. And we can open up the dodo and admire its adaptations to a grounded life and food supply. But we'll never watch a dodo run, eat and shout to the sky for a mate. And we will NEVER really understand what it was like to coax every last bit of speed and power out of the fastest machine on earth at the time. We need to save these things in operating condition for the same reason we need to save every species we can (ignoring the overall ecological effects of wiping out a species) as a matter of understanding. We need to save them for the same reason we need to save Blake's "dark Satanic mills" in operating condition, along with steam trains, etc. We need to save them for the same reason I and my friends study 16th Century rapier manuals and fence with the closest safe weapons we can get to real rounded-blade practice rapiers, or fight in armor or paint and illuminate with 600-year-old techniques and duplicate materials. Why others recently built a couple of "Viking" longboats, in an era when folks have forgotten that viking is an activity and not the name of a people. Once you lose context, you lose the ability to understand a given element of society - and it is far better to do it now than to have to rebuild left on what historical material is left. While we should not run ourselves out of space for the new by collecting the old, our successors will damn each of us who turns off the last machine of its kind, fails to maintain an important element of our culture, fails to pass on a tradition. I can only hope that THCC and a few private collectors will insure that our grandchildren will understand the excitement of, let's say playing the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 by, not only reading "Hackers" but being given a chance to kick one of the old brutes to life, load the tape, study the code and make changes off the switch register. Or going through the mental gymnastics necessary to model the weather using Cray's strange beast. Or using a slipstick. Or playing U-Boat intelligence officer and encrypting a message on an Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. dmr ###### Message-ID: <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 964532347 128.135.145.16 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:39:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:39:07 CDT Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:41:08 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60476 David Razler wrote: > > >... it would be > >ridiculous to run. > > EXCEPT for look-and-feel historical/sociological purposes - valuable > insights into the "past" we lose every time we shut down the > last-of-its-kind machine. > > Or playing U-Boat intelligence officer and encrypting a message on an > Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. I couldn't agree more. As I ride on the coat-tails of this industry I learn mroe and more about the technology that was once considered "high". Dmr is right. We have to have context to understand what we have now. As youths we think we have all the answers; yet as adults we discover that lots of great people tried before. Without history, the present means nothing. Simon -- Simon Allaway | "It is the year 2000, and there University of Chicago | are no flying cars... where are Haskell Hall - M136 | all the flying cars? " - IBM ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 25 Jul 2000 13:58:05 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60524 In <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: > > >David Razler wrote: >> >> >... it would be >> >ridiculous to run. >> >> EXCEPT for look-and-feel historical/sociological purposes - valuable >> insights into the "past" we lose every time we shut down the >> last-of-its-kind machine. > > > >> >> Or playing U-Boat intelligence officer and encrypting a message on an >> Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. > >I couldn't agree more. As I ride on the coat-tails of this industry I >learn mroe and more about the technology that was once considered >"high". Dmr is right. We have to have context to understand what we have >now. As youths we think we have all the answers; yet as adults we >discover that lots of great people tried before. Without history, the >present means nothing. > >Simon > >-- >Simon Allaway | "It is the year 2000, and there >University of Chicago | are no flying cars... where are >Haskell Hall - M136 | all the flying cars? " - IBM What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: John Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:02:10 -0700 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 22 Message-ID: <397DBA02.D21CBE97@cisco.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@dhcp-171-68-135-18.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60457 Dave wrote: > What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: > > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > > There is a variation of that which is, perhaps, more appropriate for our industry: Those who do not remember Multics are doomed to re-implement it poorly. I suspect that we could generate a multiple choice list for "Multics". JKA -- There are conditions that customers will try to make into requirements but which are beyond the realities of economics or physics. J Schnizlein ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 25 Jul 00 11:19:31 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-586.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60571 In article <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com (glass2) writes: >What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: > > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Then there's the alternate version that I rather like: The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 11:12:47 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8lmrhe$ob4$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Trace: naQ1c6pxGIPykLn6FhvYa6bKqALolpi+24J8YklfPBA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2000 14:10:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.minn.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-217 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60587 In article , aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >In article >, >jmaynard@conmicro.cx wrote: > >> On 25 Jul 2000 14:51:49 -0800, Eugene Miya wrote: >> >I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. >> >We also need software. >> >> This may be even harder than having running hardware > >Trust me, finding software IS harder than finding repairable hardware, >just because it was easier to toss it in the garbage, or recycle the >disc packs for the aluminum (assuming the company IS people didn't >send it all to the shredders for 'security' reasons). > >Once something gets into the surplus food-chain, the first thing >tossed is paper and anything that looks like plastic (floppies, >magtapes,...). If you're REALLY lucky, you'll find a moving box >within a few hundred feet of the system in the scrapper's warehouse >with bits of the related system software/docs. Most often, though, >they didn't even bother to haul it away. I am somebody who knows what all got lost when Digital trashed the PDP-10. When I was working, I was collecting all of this stuff, or as much as I could. I also had some influence about what pieces of stuff should be saved when we were going through cost cutting exercises (that influence was taken away due to in-house politics). However, when I had to quit working, all of that stuff that I had was thrown away. It couldn't be packed and shipped to my house because it wasn't mine to keep...it was the company's. And, when the members of the group decided that none of this stuff was important, they threw it all away. And I won't even begin to rant about those people whose underlying goal was to destroy everything we had created. They did a very good job of it, though. I had an assumption that this stuff didn't need a curator; I was wrong. And I will spend the rest of my life regretting that assumption. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <397DBA02.D21CBE97@cisco.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397de3bb$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 12:00:11 -0800 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 12:00:11 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60564 In article <397DBA02.D21CBE97@cisco.com>, John Ahlstrom wrote: >Dave wrote: >> What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: >> Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. it was "the past" >There is a variation of that which is, perhaps, more appropriate for our >industry: > Those who do not remember Multics are doomed to re-implement it poorly. > >I suspect that we could generate a multiple choice list for "Multics". I like what one of my old girlfriends said when mangling the quote: Those who remember the past as doomed to repeat it. That's what education is about, too. 8^) We "saved" a Multics system. We just have to get it up and running. While I was not a fan, I recognize to needs and rights of the Multics crew to get this machine up and running again. Multics was about design choices. I personally can't agree with all the choices that Corabito and co. made, but I appreciate the responses which came from them. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 25 Jul 2000 22:37:53 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 8 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Jul 25 17:37:53 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !_$`I1k-Y@+kr/. (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!209.150.97.11!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60575 On 25 Jul 2000 14:51:49 -0800, Eugene Miya wrote: >I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. >We also need software. This may be even harder than having running hardware...if only because nobody ever thought to keep it around. I don't know where Rick Fochtman came up with his OS/360 distribution, but if he hadn't, I doubt we'd have any copies to run. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:51:49 -0800 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 14:51:49 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 195 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60561 In article , David Razler wrote: First off, David, I appreciate your sentiment. >On 24 Jul 2000 19:00:55 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >wrote: >>Doubtful. >>X-MPs were not only faster but they had more memory and were >>instruction set compatable. A 1 will still read or write faster than >>any PC, but it's memory is so proportionally small that it would be >>ridiculous to run. > >EXCEPT for look-and-feel historical/sociological purposes - >valuable insights into the "past" we lose every time we shut down the >last-of-its-kind machine. Second off, I don't hold much for sociology. Not yet anyway. There are many ways that I will cite this historic. I'm not a fan of appearances (look and feel) [See Minsky, Form and Content in Computer Science]. The first time I viewed our collection, I was clearly impressed, and I was glad to be given formal work time to help our Museum. It's important to us, and it's important to the world, but you can't help prioritizing (more one this). One of my stand jokes was that if a particular building burns down, the machine to save would be the Xerox Alto. It sits across from C-1 S/N #6, under some 3.3 Mb/s Ethernet cable with vampire taps, and next to the first Xerox Dover printer^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcopier. Almost everything who know and down about computing are based on the Alto today (interface-wise, networking, etc. etc.) I grossly exaggerate a bit. And yes I am aware that the Alto had ideas lifted from the Data General Nova 800 model (cobwebs in the brain, the Alto is the issue, there's a DG Nova, too). Do we lose valuable insights? Well, only up to a point. There are similar issues in what's being term "stockpile stewartship" and what's called tacit knowledge: subtle things which no one saw fit to report. The tragedy here is not the shutting down of the last Cray 1 which was probably over 10 years ago at the earliest. The tragedy was Seymour's death and that he didn't produce "students" of the kind to replace him. There are whole web sites by ex-CRI and ex-CCC employees who can go into the man and his other employees. There's a mediocure book by Charles Murray entitled The Supermen (an ex-officemate of mine and Museum founder who was a major contributor to this book). I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. We also need software. I have occasionaly running battles about this with our Curator. I just introduced him to my old boss John Pierce who's at a rest home about 2 miles from here. And John spoke about how important it was to have things which work. These words will likely be in an IEEE column in a few months. There is one argument for fragile items that contact is not good. I don't completely hold that, especially with things which were ruggized for battle fields. However, read on. >Seeing a Cray-1 like the decommissioned model in the Smithsonian is >looking at a piece of history, about as true-to-life as using one as a >dodo in formalin. Well, kinda of a strange comparison, but okay. You mean the 1 at the National Air and Space Museum which is next to a display that I'm in the middle upgrading and fixing, I take. >Oh, we can look at the way Sy solved the Problems of the Day with lots >of miniature coax, chose an optimal physical layout and, for vanity >and design, upholstered the power supply covers. Sy? Well, I have recommended replacing the foam rubber under the seat covers (only one still has loft). It's clearly better to having living dodos. But in the case of the machine, there's a difference between merely looking at history and having one around and running one. In this regard, trust me, more mistakes have been made in the name of the Cray-1 than good features. And if you want a lesson in computer architecture, study the X-MP/Y-MP and not the Cray-1. >And we can open up the dodo and admire its adaptations to a grounded >life and food supply. >But we'll never watch a dodo run, eat and shout to the sky for a mate. There's no argument here. It will be interest to see if bioengineers ever attempt to clone one. >And we will NEVER really understand what it was like to coax every >last bit of speed and power out of the fastest machine on earth at the time. Trust me: there's a dozens of people around the world attempting to do this as you read this. Probably not as brilliant as Cray was when he was alive, but still smart, give them some credit. >We need to save these things in operating condition for the same >reason we need to save every species we can (ignoring the overall >ecological effects of wiping out a species) as a matter of >understanding. I appreciate the words and the sentiment, but there's a little matter of economics. Ecology aside (as a Life Member of the SIerra Club and a fan of EF! and the Sea Shepards). I agree as much needs to be operating as possible (few people realize, oh, BTW, you need to have disks, and that's not trivial), unless you have the bucks, if dreams were horses all beggers would ride.... There's going to have to be picking and choosing. Right next to the 1 are the remains of two ETA-10 CPUs. One is an LN2 cryostat which we recovered before 7 other tractor trailer loads went to the scrap heap. There were some people who didn't in collecting this. I marginally did, but I did as I was told, and Neil Lincoln is a little happier for it (one of the other dozens). >We need to save them for the same reason we need to save Blake's "dark >Satanic mills" in operating condition, along with steam trains, etc. Interesting comparison okay. >We need to save them for the same reason I and my friends study 16th >Century rapier manuals and fence with the closest safe weapons we can >get to real rounded-blade practice rapiers, or fight in armor or paint >and illuminate with 600-year-old techniques and duplicate materials. >Why others recently built a couple of "Viking" longboats, in an era >when folks have forgotten that viking is an activity and not the name >of a people. I have friends who build trucbuchets (wanta buy one?), and my ancestors were samuari archers (but life goes on). >Once you lose context, you lose the ability to understand a given >element of society - and it is far better to do it now than to have to >rebuild left on what historical material is left. Quite true. Have a few bucks? >While we should not run ourselves out of space for the new by >collecting the old, our successors will damn each of us who turns off >the last machine of its kind, fails to maintain an important element >of our culture, fails to pass on a tradition. Ah, I hate to tell you this: too late. Let me inform you something about the issue of floor space. A couple of major contributions to to our Museum were the former DEC and the former LLNL computer collections/Museums. The floor space became too valuable. You have to be selective for several reasons. We're biding out time for IBM to come to the same conclusion about their collection (soon). And Apple's went to Stanford. God knows about machines: Univacs, Burroughs, Unisys, NCR, etc. We have our lists. >I can only hope that THCC and a few private collectors TCMHC, for now >will insure that our grandchildren will understand the excitement of, >let's say playing the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 by, not only The PDP-1 is there. Those ex-DECees have to get off their butts and do some restoration work. >reading "Hackers" but being given a chance to kick one of the old >brutes to life, load the tape, study the code and make changes off the >switch register. We're working on that. >Or going through the mental gymnastics necessary to model the weather >using Cray's strange beast. I think that current climate modeling is interesting enough without that. That was memory limited (noted above). The Cray-1 is reasonably straight forward to today's machines. >Or using a slipstick. I can still use one, but I'm on the fence as to whether kids should learn how to use one today. >Or playing U-Boat intelligence officer and encrypting a message on an >Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. The intelligence officers weren't the ones in the boats to do signals. I appreciate this example, because I lug (that's the right word) ours around for demos. Cracking a message (I have to visit NARA to get an original one, I exchanged a few messages with my friend Neal about "his" message in his last book, but he gen-ed-up a fake one), but you should realize that starting from raw cypher text these days, you would do better with Gilmore's DES machine (Deep Crack). We to get it in time as we hope to revamp our set of Enigma rotors and do a face off. However, priorities, economies, and other similar issues are going to take their toll. I know the things that I would chose. I also know some of the things that others, richer than me, would chose. I similarly don't hold with trying to recover all old Usenet postings. It's a waste of money more valuable to be spent on preserving other bits of history. And I know Brewster at IA (he used to be our CM engineer), and Danny and Stewart at the Long Now [I got two of them Rosetta Stone mouse pads at the British Museum]. It's like Sophie's Choice. Besides, given a choice, I'd rather have our Cray-2 running. ;^) ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:04:14 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 964566245 24924 17.205.21.66 (25 Jul 2000 23:04:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2000 23:04:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60598 In article , jmaynard@conmicro.cx wrote: > On 25 Jul 2000 14:51:49 -0800, Eugene Miya wrote: > >I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. > >We also need software. > > This may be even harder than having running hardware Trust me, finding software IS harder than finding repairable hardware, just because it was easier to toss it in the garbage, or recycle the disc packs for the aluminum (assuming the company IS people didn't send it all to the shredders for 'security' reasons). Once something gets into the surplus food-chain, the first thing tossed is paper and anything that looks like plastic (floppies, magtapes,...). If you're REALLY lucky, you'll find a moving box within a few hundred feet of the system in the scrapper's warehouse with bits of the related system software/docs. Most often, though, they didn't even bother to haul it away. -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 15:31:24 -0800 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 15:31:24 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 195 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60551 In article , David Razler wrote: First off, David, I appreciate your sentiment. >On 24 Jul 2000 19:00:55 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >wrote: >>Doubtful. >>X-MPs were not only faster but they had more memory and were >>instruction set compatable. A 1 will still read or write faster than >>any PC, but it's memory is so proportionally small that it would be >>ridiculous to run. > >EXCEPT for look-and-feel historical/sociological purposes - >valuable insights into the "past" we lose every time we shut down the >last-of-its-kind machine. Second off, I don't hold much for sociology. Not yet anyway. There are many ways that I will cite this historic. I'm not a fan of appearances (look and feel) [See Minsky, Form and Content in Computer Science]. The first time I viewed our collection, I was clearly impressed, and I was glad to be given formal work time to help our Museum. It's important to us, and it's important to the world, but you can't help prioritizing (more one this). One of my stand jokes was that if a particular building burns down, the machine to save would be the Xerox Alto. It sits across from C-1 S/N #6, under some 3.3 Mb/s Ethernet cable with vampire taps, and next to the first Xerox Dover printer^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcopier. Almost everything we know and do in computing are based on the Alto today (interface-wise, networking, etc. etc.) I grossly exaggerate a bit. And yes I am aware that the Alto had ideas lifted from the Data General Nova 800 model (cobwebs in the brain, the Alto is the issue, there's a DG Nova, too). Do we lose valuable insights? Well, only up to a point. There are similar issues in what's being term "stockpile stewartship" and what's called tacit knowledge: subtle things which no one saw fit to report. The tragedy here is not the shutting down of the last Cray 1 which was probably over 10 years ago at the earliest. The tragedy was Seymour's death and that he didn't produce "students" of the kind to replace him. There are whole web sites by ex-CRI and ex-CCC employees who can go into the man and his other employees. There's a mediocure book by Charles Murray entitled The Supermen (an ex-officemate of mine and Museum founder who was a major contributor to this book). I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. We also need software. I have occasionaly running battles about this with our Curator. I just introduced him to my old boss John Pierce who's at a rest home about 2 miles from here. And John spoke about how important it was to have things which work. These words will likely be in an IEEE column in a few months. There is one argument for fragile items that contact is not good. I don't completely hold that, especially with things which were ruggized for battle fields. However, read on. >Seeing a Cray-1 like the decommissioned model in the Smithsonian is >looking at a piece of history, about as true-to-life as using one as a >dodo in formalin. Well, kinda of a strange comparison, but okay. You mean the 1 at the National Air and Space Museum which is next to a display that I'm in the middle upgrading and fixing, I take. >Oh, we can look at the way Sy solved the Problems of the Day with lots >of miniature coax, chose an optimal physical layout and, for vanity >and design, upholstered the power supply covers. Sy? Well, I have recommended replacing the foam rubber under the seat covers (only one still has loft). It's clearly better to having living dodos. But in the case of the machine, there's a difference between merely looking at history and having one around and running one. In this regard, trust me, more mistakes have been made in the name of the Cray-1 than good features. And if you want a lesson in computer architecture, study the X-MP/Y-MP and not the Cray-1. >And we can open up the dodo and admire its adaptations to a grounded >life and food supply. >But we'll never watch a dodo run, eat and shout to the sky for a mate. There's no argument here. It will be interest to see if bioengineers ever attempt to clone one. >And we will NEVER really understand what it was like to coax every >last bit of speed and power out of the fastest machine on earth at the time. Trust me: there's a dozens of people around the world attempting to do this as you read this. Probably not as brilliant as Cray was when he was alive, but still smart, give them some credit. >We need to save these things in operating condition for the same >reason we need to save every species we can (ignoring the overall >ecological effects of wiping out a species) as a matter of >understanding. I appreciate the words and the sentiment, but there's a little matter of economics. Ecology aside (as a Life Member of the SIerra Club and a fan of EF! and the Sea Shepards). I agree as much needs to be operating as possible (few people realize, oh, BTW, you need to have disks, and that's not trivial), unless you have the bucks, if dreams were horses all beggers would ride.... There's going to have to be picking and choosing. Right next to the 1 are the remains of two ETA-10 CPUs. One is an LN2 cryostat which we recovered before 7 other tractor trailer loads went to the scrap heap. There were some people who didn't in collecting this. I marginally did, but I did as I was told, and Neil Lincoln is a little happier for it (one of the other dozens). >We need to save them for the same reason we need to save Blake's "dark >Satanic mills" in operating condition, along with steam trains, etc. Interesting comparison okay. >We need to save them for the same reason I and my friends study 16th >Century rapier manuals and fence with the closest safe weapons we can >get to real rounded-blade practice rapiers, or fight in armor or paint >and illuminate with 600-year-old techniques and duplicate materials. >Why others recently built a couple of "Viking" longboats, in an era >when folks have forgotten that viking is an activity and not the name >of a people. I have friends who build trucbuchets (wanta buy one?), and my ancestors were samuari archers (but life goes on). >Once you lose context, you lose the ability to understand a given >element of society - and it is far better to do it now than to have to >rebuild left on what historical material is left. Quite true. Have a few bucks? >While we should not run ourselves out of space for the new by >collecting the old, our successors will damn each of us who turns off >the last machine of its kind, fails to maintain an important element >of our culture, fails to pass on a tradition. Ah, I hate to tell you this: too late. Let me inform you something about the issue of floor space. A couple of major contributions to to our Museum were the former DEC and the former LLNL computer collections/Museums. The floor space became too valuable. You have to be selective for several reasons. We're biding out time for IBM to come to the same conclusion about their collection (soon). And Apple's went to Stanford. God knows about machines: Univacs, Burroughs, Unisys, NCR, etc. We have our lists. >I can only hope that THCC and a few private collectors TCMHC, for now >will insure that our grandchildren will understand the excitement of, >let's say playing the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 by, not only The PDP-1 is there. Those ex-DECees have to get off their butts and do some restoration work. >reading "Hackers" but being given a chance to kick one of the old >brutes to life, load the tape, study the code and make changes off the >switch register. We're working on that. >Or going through the mental gymnastics necessary to model the weather >using Cray's strange beast. I think that current climate modeling is interesting enough without that. That was memory limited (noted above). The Cray-1 is reasonably straight forward to today's machines. >Or using a slipstick. I can still use one, but I'm on the fence as to whether kids should learn how to use one today. >Or playing U-Boat intelligence officer and encrypting a message on an >Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. The intelligence officers weren't the ones in the boats to do signals. I appreciate this example, because I lug (that's the right word) ours around for demos. Cracking a message (I have to visit NARA to get an original one, I exchanged a few messages with my friend Neal about "his" message in his last book, but he gen-ed-up a fake one), but you should realize that starting from raw cypher text these days, you would do better with Gilmore's DES machine (Deep Crack). We to get it in time as we hope to revamp our set of Enigma rotors and do a face off. However, priorities, economies, and other similar issues are going to take their toll. I know the things that I would chose. I also know some of the things that others, richer than me, would chose. I similarly don't hold with trying to recover all old Usenet postings. It's a waste of money more valuable to be spent on preserving other bits of history. And I know Brewster at IA (he used to be our CM engineer), and Danny and Stewart at the Long Now [I got two of them Rosetta Stone mouse pads at the British Museum]. It's like Sophie's Choice. Besides, given a choice, I'd rather have our Cray-2 running. ;^) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397e2d38$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 17:13:44 -0800 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 17:13:44 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60555 In article <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway wrote: >> Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. > >I couldn't agree more. As I ride on the coat-tails of this industry I >learn more and more about the technology that was once considered >"high". Dmr is right. We have to have context to understand what we have now. We have to have context and semantics, but I hate to tell you this, it's going to cost. Faster, better, cheaper. Chose two. Remember: 1) Not all messages were decoded. 2) Those that were were done in the context of other messages The trick was determining the key for the day. After that, anyone could decipher one. >As youths we think we have all the answers; You know, growing up, I never had, not once had that thought. >yet as adults we discover that lots of great people tried before. >Without history, the present means nothing. I can assure you that lots of great people made mistakes. Many idea, inventions, discoveries, what have you, are merely who got there first. It can cut both ways. I would not recommend, for instance, spending too much time trying to trisect an arbitrary angle using compass and straight edge, but it might be useful to show a proof of impossibility using algebra. "Perhaps as one of the older generation. I should preach a little sermon to you, but I do not propose to do so. I shall, instead, give you a word of advice about how to deal behave toward your elders. When an old and distinguished person speaks to you, listen to him carefully and with respect -- *but do not believe him. Never put your trust in anything but your own intellect.* Your elder no matter whether he has gray hair or lost his hair, no matter whether he is a Nobel Laureate, *may be wrong*... So you must always be skeptical -- *always think for yourself.*" --LP Well, you just have lots of ideas and throw away the bad ones. You aren't going to have good ideas, unless you have *LOTS* of ideas and some principle of selection. --LP ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397e2de6$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 17:16:38 -0800 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 17:16:38 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60562 In article , Jay Maynard wrote: >On 25 Jul 2000 14:51:49 -0800, Eugene Miya wrote: >>I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. >>We also need software. > >This may be even harder than having running hardware...if only because >nobody ever thought to keep it around. I don't know where Rick Fochtman came >up with his OS/360 distribution, but if he hadn't, I doubt we'd have any >copies to run. There are professional groups like the NDLF (Natl. Digital Library Federation) concern with collecting emulators. But I think that they underestimate the task. That's where EEs and others will have to come in. The field is just starting. I suspec that the emulators will require some tweaking. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397e4127$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 25 Jul 2000 18:38:47 -0800 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 18:38:47 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60631 In article <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> >glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com (glass2) writes: >>What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: >> Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > >Then there's the alternate version that I rather like: > The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn > from history. I like it. It's cute. I don't fully agree with it. 8^) There used to be: Reinventing the wheel, again. I says Reinventing the ILLIAC [IV], again. for people just finding parallel computing. But it's important that without relooking at old problem, we would not have steel-belted radials. Maybe not air cars, but better wheels. I have to fix the rear wheel on my bike, now. In closing, my favorite line from the film "1941" was the sailor trying to stuff the radio [tube] down sub hatch and saying: There must be a way to make these things smaller..... ###### From: William Donzelli Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:58:57 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8llr6g$s4j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.254.191.112 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jul 26 04:58:57 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC, Nav) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.254.191.112 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaw288 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60574 In article <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: > >I can only hope that THCC and a few private collectors > TCMHC, for now > >will insure that our grandchildren will understand the excitement of, > >let's say playing the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 by, not only (more soapbox time!) Please keep in mind that there are a number of grass-roots efforts to save pieces of computer history that might otherwise slip away. I am part of one - the Retrocomputing Society of Rhode Island, Inc. (RCS/RI) . Now at this point, we really are very small and have a tiny budget, but we are trying, and we are moving forward. We have been around for over four years (two as a corporation). We have long- term serious plans to have a real public museum (although right now we do have public open houses - third Saturday of each month in Providence - see our website for details!). In time, we will reach our goal. We are trying to focus on larger systems - minicomputers and mainframes. Our philosophy is to get the machines running with original software. We agree that there is value to seeing the lights blink and the tapes spin - far more than reading about how the lights used to blink and the tapes used to spin. Yes, restoration, at whatever level, is hard to do, but it can be done. We have a PDP-12 that has been operationally restored, and a LINC-8 that is well on its way. Some will be near-impossible tasks (DECsystem 2065, for example), but we will not give up. Do we have a significant collection? No, not like TCMHC. We really don't have any super significant machines (except for all of our old NSFnet stuff - world's largest collection!) - but that really isn't the point. Having the old beasts safe for public appreciation is. Others? There is also the Rhode Island Computer Museum (RICM), as well as the Vintage Computer Faire bunch. Probably others, too (speak up!). By the way - we are looking for a super or two for the collection - any ideas? William Donzelli Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: David Razler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.com Message-ID: <8pvtnscrvtifrfv14s2b30ie9n9bfa418c@4ax.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:11:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.66.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 964624277 12.79.66.229 (Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:11:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:11:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60622 >In article <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> >glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com (glass2) writes: > >>What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: >> >> Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > John Brunner, who mis-attributed the quote to Hegal responded "Papa Hegal was an optimist" dmr ###### From: David Razler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.com Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 267 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:40:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.66.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 964626021 12.79.66.229 (Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:40:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:40:21 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60563 On 25 Jul 2000 15:31:24 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >In article , >David Razler wrote: > >First off, David, I appreciate your sentiment. > >>On 24 Jul 2000 19:00:55 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >>wrote: >>>Doubtful. >>>X-MPs were not only faster but they had more memory and were >>>instruction set compatable. A 1 will still read or write faster than >>>any PC, but it's memory is so proportionally small that it would be >>>ridiculous to run. >> >>EXCEPT for look-and-feel historical/sociological purposes - >>valuable insights into the "past" we lose every time we shut down the >>last-of-its-kind machine. > >Second off, I don't hold much for sociology. Not yet anyway. >There are many ways that I will cite this historic. I'm not a fan of >appearances (look and feel) [See Minsky, Form and Content in Computer Science]. While I may be a fan of Minsky, sometimes he is wrong. As for "sociology" I was using it in a broader character than the university department. An examination of Levy's "Hackers" will demonstrate *why* look-and-feel matters to historical/social analysis, especially once the generation involved has passed on before we can download ourselves or recode our genes. I have not read that Minsky piece (ISBN/or serial appearing in) appreciated. Answer me, from a standpoint of the actual labor involved "what problems did Grace Hopper face writing and debugging the first assemblers and compilers?" Now put in the adjectives and adverbs and descriptors about the pain of plugboards and possibility of error, working without software tools, physically moving everything from switches to boxes, dealing with heat and tubes, etc. Don't guess at 'em, put them in from personal experience. I go to medieval/Renaissance movies with a bunch of folks who say things like "wait a second, that style of hat didn't exist until 50 years later" or "pfft, Dave Edge (the fencing choreographer) knows better than to allow that hilt on that blade in that year". And we *know* we're right, both from archaeology, including garment reconstruction using original technique, and use of the actual weapons (you cannot do this with that because it simply doesn't work no matter how good a fencer you are) My experience with working glass is based on my experience from working glass for a newspaper story. I can (and did) describe for a newspaper audience the feeling of flying in a Blue Angels jet trainer, because I did. Had I written the stories *before* the experiences, they would have been wrong. Had I written them based on interviews, the sensation of pulling several Gs or the searing heat from the Glory Hole while gathering glass would not have been properly described. > >The first time I viewed our collection, I was clearly impressed, and >I was glad to be given formal work time to help our Museum. It's >important to us, and it's important to the world, but you can't help >prioritizing (more one this). One of my stand jokes was that if a >particular building burns down, the machine to save would be the Xerox Alto. >It sits across from C-1 S/N #6, under some 3.3 Mb/s Ethernet cable with >vampire taps, and next to the first Xerox Dover printer^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcopier. >Almost everything we know and do in computing are based on the >Alto today (interface-wise, networking, etc. etc.) I grossly exaggerate >a bit. And yes I am aware that the Alto had ideas lifted from the Data >General Nova 800 model (cobwebs in the brain, the Alto is the issue, >there's a DG Nova, too). > >Do we lose valuable insights? Well, only up to a point. >There are similar issues in what's being term "stockpile stewartship" >and what's called tacit knowledge: subtle things which no one saw fit to >report. > >The tragedy here is not the shutting down of the last Cray 1 which was >probably over 10 years ago at the earliest. The tragedy was Seymour's >death and that he didn't produce "students" of the kind to replace him. >There are whole web sites by ex-CRI and ex-CCC employees who can go into >the man and his other employees. There's a mediocure book by Charles >Murray entitled The Supermen (an ex-officemate of mine and Museum >founder who was a major contributor to this book). The human loss is the greater tragedy But the mechanical loss will be felt in a few decades >I personally think that we need to have operating hardware. >We also need software. I have occasionaly running battles about this >with our Curator. I just introduced him to my old boss John Pierce who's >at a rest home about 2 miles from here. And John spoke about how >important it was to have things which work. These words will likely be >in an IEEE column in a few months. There is one argument for fragile items >that contact is not good. I don't completely hold that, especially with >things which were ruggized for battle fields. >However, read on. > >>Seeing a Cray-1 like the decommissioned model in the Smithsonian is >>looking at a piece of history, about as true-to-life as using one as a >>dodo in formalin. > >Well, kinda of a strange comparison, but okay. >You mean the 1 at the National Air and Space Museum which is next to >a display that I'm in the middle upgrading and fixing, I take. > No, the one in the basement of the building (Sci/Tech?) with the Straight-8 I locked the panel on, last time I visited, and the various boxes propped, inert, on piles of old magazines. >>Oh, we can look at the way Sy solved the Problems of the Day with lots >>of miniature coax, chose an optimal physical layout and, for vanity >>and design, upholstered the power supply covers. > >Sy? At least in popular literature - by folks who *didn't* know him >Well, I have recommended replacing the foam rubber under the seat covers >(only one still has loft). It's clearly better to having living dodos. >But in the case of the machine, there's a difference between merely >looking at history and having one around and running one. In this regard, >trust me, more mistakes have been made in the name of the Cray-1 >than good features. And if you want a lesson in computer architecture, >study the X-MP/Y-MP and not the Cray-1. > >>And we can open up the dodo and admire its adaptations to a grounded >>life and food supply. >>But we'll never watch a dodo run, eat and shout to the sky for a mate. > >There's no argument here. >It will be interest to see if bioengineers ever attempt to clone one. > >>And we will NEVER really understand what it was like to coax every >>last bit of speed and power out of the fastest machine on earth at the time. > >Trust me: there's a dozens of people around the world attempting to do >this as you read this. Probably not as brilliant as Cray was when he >was alive, but still smart, give them some credit. > >>We need to save these things in operating condition for the same >>reason we need to save every species we can (ignoring the overall >>ecological effects of wiping out a species) as a matter of >>understanding. > >I appreciate the words and the sentiment, but there's a little matter of >economics. Ecology aside (as a Life Member of the SIerra Club and a fan >of EF! and the Sea Shepards). I agree as much needs to be operating as >possible (few people realize, oh, BTW, you need to have disks, and >that's not trivial), unless you have the bucks, if dreams were horses >all beggers would ride.... There's going to have to be picking and >choosing. > >Right next to the 1 are the remains of two ETA-10 CPUs. One is an LN2 >cryostat which we recovered before 7 other tractor trailer loads went to >the scrap heap. There were some people who didn't in collecting this. >I marginally did, but I did as I was told, and Neil Lincoln is a little >happier for it (one of the other dozens). > >>We need to save them for the same reason we need to save Blake's "dark >>Satanic mills" in operating condition, along with steam trains, etc. > >Interesting comparison okay. > >>We need to save them for the same reason I and my friends study 16th >>Century rapier manuals and fence with the closest safe weapons we can >>get to real rounded-blade practice rapiers, or fight in armor or paint >>and illuminate with 600-year-old techniques and duplicate materials. >>Why others recently built a couple of "Viking" longboats, in an era >>when folks have forgotten that viking is an activity and not the name >>of a people. > >I have friends who build trucbuchets (wanta buy one?), and my ancestors >were samuari archers (but life goes on). We may have friends in common. > >>Once you lose context, you lose the ability to understand a given >>element of society - and it is far better to do it now than to have to >>rebuild left on what historical material is left. > >Quite true. Have a few bucks? > >>While we should not run ourselves out of space for the new by >>collecting the old, our successors will damn each of us who turns off >>the last machine of its kind, fails to maintain an important element >>of our culture, fails to pass on a tradition. > >Ah, I hate to tell you this: too late. >Let me inform you something about the issue of floor space. >A couple of major contributions to to our Museum were the former DEC and >the former LLNL computer collections/Museums. The floor space became >too valuable. You have to be selective for several reasons. We're >biding out time for IBM to come to the same conclusion about their >collection (soon). And Apple's went to Stanford. God knows about machines: >Univacs, Burroughs, Unisys, NCR, etc. We have our lists. > The Smithsonian has, as part of Air and Space, a hanger housing a 747 among other smaller creatures - not usually on public display. But they are there. >>I can only hope that THCC and a few private collectors > TCMHC, for now >>will insure that our grandchildren will understand the excitement of, >>let's say playing the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 by, not only > The PDP-1 is there. Those ex-DECees have to get off their butts > and do some restoration work. >>reading "Hackers" but being given a chance to kick one of the old >>brutes to life, load the tape, study the code and make changes off the >>switch register. > > We're working on that. > >>Or going through the mental gymnastics necessary to model the weather >>using Cray's strange beast. > >I think that current climate modeling is interesting enough without that. >That was memory limited (noted above). The Cray-1 is reasonably >straight forward to today's machines. > >>Or using a slipstick. > >I can still use one, but I'm on the fence as to whether kids should >learn how to use one today. Not kids, per se. Let's say someone studying the construction of the first Atomic Pile and (in a century) wondering why the calculations took so long. > >>Or playing U-Boat intelligence officer and encrypting a message on an >>Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. > >The intelligence officers weren't the ones in the boats to do signals. >I appreciate this example, because I lug (that's the right word) ours >around for demos. Cracking a message (I have to visit NARA to get an >original one, I exchanged a few messages with my friend Neal about "his" >message in his last book, but he gen-ed-up a fake one), but you should >realize that starting from raw cypher text these days, you would do >better with Gilmore's DES machine (Deep Crack). We to get it in time >as we hope to revamp our set of Enigma rotors and do a face off. > >However, priorities, economies, and other similar issues are going to >take their toll. I know the things that I would chose. I also know some >of the things that others, richer than me, would chose. > >I similarly don't hold with trying to recover all old Usenet postings. >It's a waste of money more valuable to be spent on preserving other bits >of history. And I know Brewster at IA (he used to be our CM engineer), >and Danny and Stewart at the Long Now [I got two of them Rosetta Stone >mouse pads at the British Museum]. It's like Sophie's Choice. > >Besides, given a choice, I'd rather have our Cray-2 running. ;^) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8llr6g$s4j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397f9bb0$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 26 Jul 2000 19:17:20 -0800 X-Trace: 26 Jul 2000 19:17:20 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60641 In article <8llr6g$s4j$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, William Donzelli wrote: >In article <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu>, > eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >> TCMHC, > >Please keep in mind that there are a number of grass-roots efforts to >save pieces of computer history that might otherwise slip away. Oh yes, and we are very appreciative of them. As with many Museums, like the Smithsonian for instance, we have lending agreements, information exchange, etc. >We are trying to focus on larger systems - minicomputers and mainframes. Try to collect off the wall minis. GAA, CAA, etc. easier for you than us. ;^) >Our philosophy is to get the machines running with original software. You want to watch the field for bureaucratic entities in need of h/w and emulators. >Do we have a significant collection? No, not like TCMHC. We really don't >have any super significant machines (except for all of our old NSFnet >stuff - world's largest collection!) - but that really isn't the point. >Having the old beasts safe for public appreciation is. Let me tell you, the NSFnet is significant. I work with that office of the NSF. TCMHC is sort of like a tank with the best armor. It's easy to stand behind. We send a contingent to VCF. >By the way - we are looking for a super or two for the collection - any >ideas? Try SGI && Cray, Inc. first, then Tony Cole, and you can also try us (we only have a couple ourselves). We might have couple more J90s soon. But you have to be low key. eBay works against you. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:16:32 -0400 Organization: Kersur Technologies Lines: 109 Message-ID: <8lpqcf$au9$1@news.kersur.net> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8llr6g$s4j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 05-053.024.popsite.net X-Trace: news.kersur.net 964717775 11209 216.126.161.53 (27 Jul 2000 17:09:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kersur.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:09:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.kersur.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60675 >> >I can only hope that THCC and a few private collectors >> TCMHC, for now >> >will insure that our grandchildren will understand the excitement of, >> >let's say playing the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 by, not only So what happened to that -1? I helped run the thing for several years at the MIT Electronics Research Society, a student-run hacker's lab in the fabled-and-now-departed Building 20, where we rescued the poor thing from the MIT Surplus Properties Office. It had been extensively hacked by Prof. Jack Dennis and several generations of grad students, and contained everything from the original germanium diode-capacitor-diode logic to Schottky TTL. That it was made to run was mainly through the work of Dave Feldsenthal. To this day I don't know whether he was good or just plain lucky - but he was damned effective. After my tenure the -1 was donated to DEC's museum, and it eventually ended up at The Boston Computer Museum. They restored it back to its original configuration, and that's where I last saw it, running Spacewar, at least 10 years ago. I understand it's now out at Moffatt. If Dave Felsendthal could get Dennis' hacked version running, without any documentation, in a few weeks, and TBCM had it restored and running a decade ago, how come it's not in runnable shape now? I don't point fingers at anyone, but I am saddened. > >(more soapbox time!) > >Please keep in mind that there are a number of grass-roots efforts to >save pieces of computer history that might otherwise slip away. I am >part of one - the Retrocomputing Society of Rhode Island, Inc. (RCS/RI) >. Now at this point, we really are very small and have >a tiny budget, but we are trying, and we are moving forward. We have >been around for over four years (two as a corporation). We have long- >term serious plans to have a real public museum (although right now we >do have public open houses - third Saturday of each month in Providence >- see our website for details!). In time, we will reach our goal. > >We are trying to focus on larger systems - minicomputers and mainframes. >Our philosophy is to get the machines running with original software. We >agree that there is value to seeing the lights blink and the tapes spin >- far more than reading about how the lights used to blink and the tapes >used to spin. Yes, restoration, at whatever level, is hard to do, but >it can be done. We have a PDP-12 that has been operationally restored, >and a LINC-8 that is well on its way. Some will be near-impossible tasks >(DECsystem 2065, for example), but we will not give up. > >Do we have a significant collection? No, not like TCMHC. We really don't >have any super significant machines (except for all of our old NSFnet >stuff - world's largest collection!) - but that really isn't the point. >Having the old beasts safe for public appreciation is. > >Others? There is also the Rhode Island Computer Museum (RICM), as well >as the Vintage Computer Faire bunch. Probably others, too (speak up!). Strange you should mention the RICM, Bill. Not only am I working with the RCS/RI on their machines, I'm helping to restore the RICM's PDP-9. It appears to be in pretty good shape, and we expect to power it up fairly soon. Getting it fully running is another manner. Checking into its history, it appears to have grown intermittent (no surprize, give the old 18-pin Flip-Chip connectors), and the wired-core "microcode" ROM became "microphonic". The biggest problem is that some less-than-competent soul attempted to fix the problems by yanking Flip-Chips while the power was on... Thanks to cooperation between the RIC/SI and the RICM I've been able to piece together most of the schematics and specs for the Flip-Chips, so most anything that's fried can be repaired. It's just a matter of time. BTW: The RICM has a growing collection of Wang machines, and Merle Pierce there has resurrected several of those old horses. They also have a growing collection of micros of several vintages, but surprizingly, only one S-100 machine: A badly hacked NorthStar Horizon. If anyone's got an S-100 box taking up too much room in a closet, talk to Merle at258@osfn.org . I heartily agree with the sentiments expressed earlier in this thread, that these old machines should be restored to operational condition, and made to run now and then. I find visits to the National Air and Space Museum, and the Visitor's Center at the Kennedy Space Center very depressing. Yes, it's great to see things such as the backup Skylab or a Saturn V, but this artifacts were, at one time, composed of largely flight-ready hardware. And although it's great to look at them, they should have flown, darn it. The advantage to old computers is that, in a sense, we get to "fly them" and keep them, too. They have much to teach us. A previous thread mentioned that those who do not learn from Multics are doomed to reimplement it. So much of what is thought to be innovation in the computer industry today (and by that I don't mean marketing hype, which is worth another flame altogether...) is, in fact, the ideas of a previous generation warmed over, often times by those unaware of what came before. Perhaps by dilligent study of what's come before, combined with the occasional new thoughts of truely intelligent people, we may actually someday make real progress in this field. > >By the way - we are looking for a super or two for the collection - any >ideas? > >William Donzelli > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3980a5c4$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jul 2000 14:12:36 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jul 2000 14:12:36 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 290 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60717 In article , David Razler wrote: >On 25 Jul 2000 15:31:24 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >wrote: >>[See Minsky, Form and Content in Computer Science]. > >While I may be a fan of Minsky, sometimes he is wrong. No question. I've called him on it myself, and he appreciates corrections. >As for "sociology" I was using it in a broader character than the university >department. > >An examination of Levy's "Hackers" will demonstrate *why* >look-and-feel matters to historical/social analysis, especially once >the generation involved has passed on before we can download ourselves >or recode our genes. I'm open to your interpretation of "sociology." But I am a little vague on Levy, and I have examined Steven's book closely [I'll refrain from cutting and pasting the quotes from it out of my database], but I think you mean the same as the historian MacKenzie calls Tacit Knowledge. Sorry, we can't capture it all. Nice thought, though. >I have not read that Minsky piece (ISBN/or serial appearing in) >appreciated. I will use the complete citation in my DB: %A Marvin Minsky %T Form and Content in Computer Science %J Journal of the ACM %V 17 %N 2 %D April 1970 %P 197-215 %K Minsky's law/conjecture (log n) limits/bounds on parallelism, performance bounds, set by branching, %K bmiya, %K education, programming languages, compilers, theory of programming, heuristics, primary education, computer science curriculum, self-extending languages, "new mathematics," CR categories: 1.50, 3.66, 4.12, 4.29, 5.24 %X Turing award lecture. Minsky warns and worries that computer science is too focused on form, and too little on content. %X ABSTRACT: An obsessive preoccupation with formalism is impeding the development of computer science. Form-content confusion is discussed relative to three areas: theory of computation, (ed: including parallelism) programming languages, and education. %X 1. Theory of Computation: (pages 197-198) To build a theory, one needs to know a lot about the basic phenomena of the subject matter. We simply do not know enough about these, in the theory of computation, to teach the subject very abstractly. Instead, we ought to teach more about the particular examples we now understand thoroughly, and hope that from this we will be able to guess and prove more general principles. I am not saying that just to be conservative about things probably true that haven't been proved yet. I think that many of our beliefs that SEEM to be common sense are false. [ed. emph] We have many misconceptions about the possible exchanges between time and memory, tradeoffs between time and program complexity, software and hardware, digital and analog circuits, serial and parallel computations, associative and addressed memory, and so on. %X It is instructive to consider the analogy with physics, in which one can organize much of the basic knowledge as a collection of rather compact conservation laws. This, of course, is just one kind of description; one could use differential equations, minimum principles, equilibrium laws, etc. Conservation of energy, for example, can be interpreted as defining exchanges between potential and kinetic energies, such as between height and velocity squared, or between temperature and presure-volume. ... There is nothing extraordinary about this; any equation with reasonably smooth solutions can be regarded as having some kind of trade-off among its variable quantities. But there are many ways to formulate things and it is risky to become too attached to one form or law and come to believe that it is the *real* basic principle. See Feynman's [1: Science Aug. 1966, 699-708] dissertation on this. %X ... %X Page 199 [the Conjecture]: Another is the serial-parallel exchange. Supposed that we had n computers instead of just one. How much can we speed up what kinds of computations? For some, we can surely gain a factor of n. [Note: this has been frequently ignored.] But these are rare. For others, we can gain log n, but it is hard to find any or to prove what are their properties. And for most, I think, we can gain hardly anything; this is the case in which there are many highly branched conditionals, so that look-ahead on possible branches will usually be wasted. [Speculative execution.] We know almost nothing about this; most people think, with surely incorrect optimistism, that parallelism is usually a profitable way to speed up most computations. %X ... %X Summary from the conclusions: There is a real conflict between the logician's goal and the educator's. The logician wants to minimize the variety of ideas, and doesn't mind a long, thin path. The educator (rightly) wants to make paths short and doesn't mind--in fact, prefers--connections to many other ideas. And he cares almost not at all about the directions of the link. >Answer me, from a standpoint of the actual labor involved "what >problems did Grace Hopper face writing and debugging the first >assemblers and compilers?" COBOL? Forget it. Probably set computing back a few years. >Now put in the adjectives and adverbs and descriptors about the pain >of plugboards and possibility of error, working without software >tools, physically moving everything from switches to boxes, dealing >with heat and tubes, etc. Oh, paper tape was great. Natural language does not do the process justice. >Don't guess at 'em, put them in from personal experience. I don't recognize your COBOL syntax. Of course I wasn't there. >I go to medieval/Renaissance movies with a bunch of folks who say >things like "wait a second, that style of hat didn't exist until 50 >years later" or "pfft, Dave Edge (the fencing choreographer) knows >better than to allow that hilt on that blade in that year". > >And we *know* we're right, both from archaeology, including garment >reconstruction using original technique, and use of the actual weapons >(you cannot do this with that because it simply doesn't work no matter >how good a fencer you are) You have two problems here David. And your problem is that you cite movies. One problem is a problem of education and knowledge. The other "problem" is that of entertainment. I grew up and spent a lot of time near Hollywood, CA: it's not real. It's business. Well for me it was American Legion Post 43. I don't bother going to medieval/Renaissance movies: I have no interest. I went to Star Wars (part IV when it first came out) and sat back and enjoyed myself with entertainment. I ignored sounds in space, etc. I can recognize that when I see the film Ed Wood (filmed in B&W in the Baldwin Hills of CA) that the light posts aren't 1960s era light posts, I can ignore that. Clearly Carl Sagan when he was alive could not take the "sounds in space" or the misuse of astronomical terminology. It's not a great thing that America's (and much of the world's) kids are "learning" misinformation factoids from American film. That people and kids see the Untouchables, or U-571 [slightly irks the people at Bletchley Park], and think that's what happens. Yep, there's problems with education and there's problem with entertainment (i.e., in the latter, most film makers like to stay near "truth" but they are more compelled to tell a story which in turn is supposed to make money). If you want to change the latter, you should go work for a film company. One of my old history TA (General ed. requirement) in fact did this and works for Rob Reiner's organization (and our old prof. occasionally look for Jeff's films [Stand by Me, The American President, etc.]), and I suspect that you will learn: 1) there are a lot of people like you, and that they tend to be employed doing that kind of thing (to a point if they are lucky enough), but 2) they find the constraints (otherwise it appears on the cutting room floor [this I know something about]). Bottom line: It's a movie. It's not real. It's business. If you want to get into education: much harder topic. >My experience with working glass is based on my experience from >working glass for a newspaper story. Hey I learned glassblowing, too! >I can (and did) describe for a newspaper audience the feeling of >flying in a Blue Angels jet trainer, because I did. Sounds great! Best I have done is ride a T-38. Oh sure, I fault Negoponte (whom I have never met) with Being Digital and his comparisons of Patagonia to my experience in the Antarctic. >Had I written the stories *before* the experiences, they would have >been wrong. Had I written them based on interviews, the sensation of >pulling several Gs or the searing heat from the Glory Hole while >gathering glass would not have been properly described. One of my favorite sets of stories are time displacement stories: Back to the Future or the STV story 700 years into the future and yes the archeologists get it all wrong (I think they get used to that). "Right, what am I wearing?" "A radiation suit." "Oh, right, for the atomic wars....." >>Murray titled The Supermen > >The human loss is the greater tragedy >But the mechanical loss will be felt in a few decades I'm not clear. >>>Seeing a Cray-1 like the decommissioned model in the Smithsonian is >>>looking at a piece of history, about as true-to-life as using one as a >>>dodo in formalin. >> >>Well, kinda of a strange comparison, but okay. >>You mean the 1 at the National Air and Space Museum which is next to >>a display that I'm in the middle upgrading and fixing, I take. >> > Not at this time, were are just replacing some problem art work (incorrect icons on a graph, and other small things which they get called on). >No, the one in the basement of the building (Sci/Tech?) with the >Straight-8 I locked the panel on, last time I visited, and the various >boxes propped, inert, on piles of old magazines. I'm not certain where. There is a 1 in the open at the NASM. Not all the Smithsonian is on display (obviously). >>>Oh, we can look at the way Sy solved the Problems of the Day with lots >>>of miniature coax, chose an optimal physical layout and, for vanity >>>and design, upholstered the power supply covers. >> >>Sy? > >At least in popular literature - by folks who *didn't* know him I only met him twice. My ex-officemate knew him far better. I've never seen "sy" used for him. "Sy" typically means "Sy Goodman" at the U. AZ business school [knowledgeable about foreign computing]. >>I have friends who build trucbuchets (wanta buy one?), and my ancestors >>were samuari archers (but life goes on). > >We may have friends in common. We might. When I was visiting "the" Tower in London, after the general tour, I took one of the speciality tours: Attack the Tower I think that I would have preferred that rather that trying to defend it. >>>context >> >>Ah, I hate to tell you this: too late. >>Let me inform you something about the issue of floor space. >> >The Smithsonian has, as part of Air and Space, a hanger housing a 747 >among other smaller creatures - not usually on public display. But >they are there. You you should realize this is, from a similar library example: no one is able to keep everything. Even the Library of Congress excesses books: millions. The people in the present aren't willing to do this. And if a collector isn't prepared to prioritize, and this has happened, bigger problems await. >> TCMHC, for now >> We're working on that. >>>Or using a slipstick. >> >>I can still use one, but I'm on the fence as to whether kids should >>learn how to use one today. > >Not kids, per se. Let's say someone studying the construction of the >first Atomic Pile and (in a century) wondering why the calculations >took so long. CP-1: I'm not clear what you are trying to illustrate with this example. CP-1 was constructed for empirical determinations. Sorry, too long. ###### From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:48:24 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 17 Message-ID: <398591B8.F3309115@multicians.org> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com> <397e4127$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.8a.1d.25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 31 Jul 2000 14:41:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60878 Eugene Miya wrote: > There used to be: > Reinventing the wheel, again. > I says > Reinventing the ILLIAC [IV], again. Multicians sometimes look at a "new" system and make the rubbing-sticks-together gesture, meaning "they're still trying to invent fire." It's a balance. David Razler is right: it's valuable to know the historical context. Saves exploring blind alleys. But some people learn best from making their own mistakes. I wouldn't want modern systems locked into the mistakes of 35 years ago. One important lesson from the past is that you regret hasty and partial solutions. Another is that you can wait too long for the ultimate elegant solution. ###### Message-ID: <3985AC18.F2CBF343@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com> <397e4127$1@news.ucsc.edu> <398591B8.F3309115@multicians.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 965061508 128.135.145.16 (Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:38:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:38:28 CDT Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:40:56 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60867 Tom Van Vleck wrote: > > It's a balance. David Razler is right: it's valuable to know > the historical context. Saves exploring blind alleys. > But some people learn best from making their own mistakes. > I wouldn't want modern systems locked into the mistakes > of 35 years ago. One important lesson from the past is that > you regret hasty and partial solutions. Another is that > you can wait too long for the ultimate elegant solution. I can relate to that in my current activity of learning Java. I find I spend most of my time making sure I devote appropriate amounts of time searching. Searching to make sure I don't try and write code that someone (apart from Sun) has done a far better job of beforehand. -- Simon Allaway | "It is the year 2000, and there University of Chicago | are no flying cars... where are Haskell Hall - M136 | all the flying cars? " - IBM ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8llr6g$s4j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8lpqcf$au9$1@news.kersur.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39861123$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:52:03 -0800 X-Trace: 31 Jul 2000 16:52:03 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 66 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60954 >>> TCMHC, for now >>> >the original Spacewars on a PDP-1 In article <8lpqcf$au9$1@news.kersur.net>, Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote: >So what happened to that -1? It's sitting, waiting to be worked on next to the revamped 1620. It appears to be in good condition, and the power requirements aren't too hefty. >by Prof. Jack Dennis and several generations of grad students, and Hey! A great guy to share tea with and talk about model trains. ... >decade ago, how come it's not in runnable shape now? I don't point >fingers at anyone, but I am saddened. It's in a building which is regarded as temporary storage. The building was originally a showroom for household applicances and has limited power [this sounds like a contradiction], but it was more storage than showroom, hence power limitations. >I heartily agree with the sentiments expressed earlier in this thread, >that these old machines should be restored to operational condition, and >made to run now and then. This is part of an argument which I engage with our curator. He's a historian, and there is a major museum/archivist movement which holds for appearance over function. But I think with people like my old boss Pierce telling him the important to have functioning machines, he will cave in. Operation is critical is some instances like Enigma machines: their contacts are kept from oxidizing by the action of the machine (part of the German verbage in the top of the lid). >I find visits to the National Air and Space Museum, >and the Visitor's Center at the Kennedy Space Center very depressing. >Yes, it's great to see things such as the backup Skylab or >a Saturn V, but this artifacts were, at one time, composed of largely >flight-ready hardware. And although it's great to look at them, they >should have flown, darn it. The advantage to old computers is that, in >a sense, we get to "fly them" and keep them, too. They have much to >teach us. A previous thread mentioned that those who do not learn from >Multics are doomed to reimplement it. So much of what is thought to be >innovation in the computer industry today (and by that I don't mean >marketing hype, which is worth another flame altogether...) is, in fact, >the ideas of a previous generation warmed over, often times by those >unaware of what came before. Perhaps by dilligent study of what's come >before, combined with the occasional new thoughts of truely intelligent >people, we may actually someday make real progress in this field. Well, the thing which is depressing isn't just the hardware. There are hanger queens. The problem is as Feynman noted: Ours is not a scientific society. Another writer noted that we are a society of shop keepers. My old officemate also noted that phrase w/o knowing the author (A. Cherry-Gerard). My old man was against me working for NASA (wanted me to go into the military and kill Communists to make the world safe for Capitalism). As enthusiatic as you or I might be about computers, the majority in the US, aren't. Computer education is pretty boring to most people. And there's a number of subproblems with that. In a way, I'd love a little mini-ARPAnet as a teaching product for that reason to cover the minutiae about machines. But that's another problem. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <464.241T1555T6795200@sky.bus.com> <397e4127$1@news.ucsc.edu> <398591B8.F3309115@multicians.org> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <398609c3$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:20:35 -0800 X-Trace: 31 Jul 2000 16:20:35 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 68 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60963 In article <398591B8.F3309115@multicians.org>, Tom Van Vleck wrote: >Eugene Miya wrote: >> There used to be: >> Reinventing the wheel, again. >> I say >> Reinventing the ILLIAC [IV], again. > >Multicians sometimes look at a "new" system and >make the rubbing-sticks-together gesture, meaning >"they're still trying to invent fire." Oh yes, in one of the other news groups, one of the long term threads is alternative ways to make fire. For some reason, a whole much of newbies are really into steel wool with a battery. I prefer a lens or a concave mirror. And if we didn't reinvent the wheel over and over, we'd never have steel belted radials. >It's a balance. David Razler is right: it's valuable to know >the historical context. Saves exploring blind alleys. >But some people learn best from making their own mistakes. >I wouldn't want modern systems locked into the mistakes >of 35 years ago. One important lesson from the past is that >you regret hasty and partial solutions. Another is that >you can wait too long for the ultimate elegant solution. Context is extremely important (so far no one has mentioned "metadata"). We have "mistakes" locked in over 100s of years old. My only problem with David's post was that it's an ideal which is embodied in your last sentence. We have to set up priorities NOW. It's also interesting to examine an recursive descent compiler to see all the blind alleys (e.g, syntax errors) a language can have. Relevant quote: [Several researchers examined and discarded ruby, misled by the reported low value of ruby's fluorescence. ...] He (Ted Maiman) had the good sense to measure ruby's fluorescence, rather than rely on published data. [By mid-May, he had the world's first laser operating and in the process proved his competitors wrong.] A side bar in the Hughes magazine Vectors 1996 on the anniversity of the first laser. The Crystal Fire book is also good for this: Determining what impurities caused N-type silicon proved to be more involved. Scaff and Theurer had noticed a peculiar odor whenever they broke predominantly N-type ingots out of quartz tubes. So did Ohl when he cut them with his diamond wheel. According to Brattain, this odor was "very much like the smell you used to have on these acetylene lamps that you had in automobiles before [they] used electric lights." Theurer recognized that this odor was not due to acetylene itself, however, but to tiny traces of phosphine gas that occurred because of impurities of phosphorous -- an element slightly heavier than silicon and just to the right of the periodic table -- in the acetylene. "By their noses they were detecting concentrations of phosphorous way below the spectroscopic limit," marveled Brattain. The minute phosphorous impurities had migrated to the center of the solidifying ingots, gathering there to produce N-type silicon. --Michael Riordan/Lillian Hoddeson Crystal Fire: The Birth of the Information Age, 1997. ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 1 Aug 2000 04:25:56 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 5 Message-ID: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60964 > But some people learn best from making their own mistakes. A producer of TV's Saturday Night Live wrote that young writers and performers come up with ideas that have been tried in the past and failed, but they have to experience it for themselves. ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 1 Aug 2000 04:41:58 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feeder.qis.net!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60959 There is an awful lot we can learn from computer history (as well as other history) provided we can modify the history to apply to the present. Obviously _directly_ applying the past to modern problems isn't gonna work because the culture has changed and the technology has changed so much. In the distant past, much work was done with sequential files processed in batch mode, when online random updates generally would have been better. But there are times when a batch sequential run is more efficient and the proper way to go, and in those times the lessons of the past in doing such jobs can be useful, despite different technology. If you're printing a lot of paychecks, you need financial and audit controls, and recovery in case a check gets mangled in handling. Those basic principles remain unchanged. In other words, we need to be wise about what we select from the past. In designing a circuit, for example, obviously the characteristics of vacuum tube filaments and power consumption are of no value today. But how were circuits evaluated and tested? How were they optimized? The questions asked back then might be good questions to ask today. Lastly, we should ensure we're never reducing the service level. If a new system technology will result in more failures or delays than the old system, for whatever reason, the new system isn't as good and needs to be fixed first. Sometimes new designers don't realize the benefits of old systems. (For example, it amazes how modern telecommunications people are totally clueless about some basic features of plain telephones (POTS) offered in years past.) ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:21:12 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 18 Message-ID: <39873e4e.6898108@news.shuswap.net> References: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-29.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 965171981 24423 139.142.177.159 (1 Aug 2000 23:19:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 2000 23:19:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61021 lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: [snipped lots of nice stuff] >(For example, it amazes how modern telecommunications people are >totally clueless about some basic features of plain telephones >(POTS) offered in years past.) Examples, please? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39874f7c$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 1 Aug 2000 15:30:20 -0800 X-Trace: 1 Aug 2000 15:30:20 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 64 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60968 I believe that the sequence of your ideas is significant. A stronger lead would be: In article <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com>, lwin wrote: >In other words, we need to be wise about what we select from the past. ... >The questions asked back then might be good questions to ask today. [first principles] I recommend: Things that Make Us Smart by Don Norman Whereas you had: In article <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com>, lwin wrote: >There is an awful lot we can learn from computer history (as well as >other history) provided we can modify the history to apply to the present. The problem with remembering our history, our baggage, is that it's incomplete knowledge. For that reason, smart people are sometimes unable to see solutions (Gordon Moore thinking of no better home use for his microprocessors than his wife's receipes, whereas, Woz/Gates/Jobs do home computing). This is one of the reasons why US anti-intellectualism, the hick who shows the city slickers "how to do it right," is so prevalent. >Obviously _directly_ applying the past to modern problems isn't gonna >work because the culture has changed and the technology has changed so much. >In the distant past, much work was done with sequential >files processed in batch mode, when online random updates generally >would have been better. > >But there are times when a batch sequential run is more efficient >and the proper way to go, and in those times the lessons of the past >in doing such jobs can be useful, despite different technology. >If you're printing a lot of paychecks, you need financial and >audit controls, and recovery in case a check gets mangled in >handling. Those basic principles remain unchanged. Well, we have changed measures of efficiency because of technological economies of scale. In the past the machine was expensive, and people were cheap. Now people (talent) is more expensive, and machines are cheap. >Lastly, we should ensure we're never reducing the service level. >If a new system technology will result in more failures or delays than >the old system, for whatever reason, the new system isn't as good and >needs to be fixed first. Sometimes new designers don't realize the >benefits of old systems. There's a lag time in evaluation which causes problems. >(For example, it amazes how modern telecommunications people are >totally clueless about some basic features of plain telephones >(POTS) offered in years past.) Well, part of our challenge is creeping featuritis. Our challenge will be to add features in an "orthogonal" way to minimize learning and maximize power. Unfortunately, we learn by doing and experiencing, and may of our developers are much smarter than the general paying public. Generally a good post if a little light. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 1 Aug 2000 15:43:12 -0800 X-Trace: 1 Aug 2000 15:43:12 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61064 >> But some people learn best from making their own mistakes. Errorless learning is possible but it's very time consuming. Economically expensive in most cases. In article <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com>, lwin wrote: >A producer of TV's Saturday Night Live wrote that young writers and >performers come up with ideas that have been tried in the past and >failed, but they have to experience it for themselves. What kid hasn't learn that the stove is hot by getting burned? It's a trait of our physical work which goes into common experience. The Cray-1 was a comparatively rare beast. It goes the other way: most of you will never experience the cool aluminum feel from the Freon cooling. Comedy is probably in some ways harder, because it's very fickle, very seasonal and topical. ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 2 Aug 2000 01:55:48 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8m7v34$j0e@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61063 > >(For example, it amazes how modern telecommunications people are > >totally clueless about some basic features of plain telephones > >(POTS) offered in years past.) > Examples, please? In the old days, systems were rigorously tested before implementation and functionality rigidly prescribed. Today, many PBXs just don't work-- callers end up in "phone mail jail". In the old days, there were human backups--well trained telephone operators--in case the system broke down or people needed help. This was both telephone company and PBXs. Telephone sets were durable, manufactured to very high standards. Service reliability and quality were important. ###### From: fixxit@bright.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/16.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:31:21 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.143.10.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bright.net X-Trace: cletus.bright.net 965186847 209.143.10.205 (Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:27:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:27:27 EDT Organization: bright.net Ohio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cletus.bright.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61057 eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >>>X-MPs were not only faster but they had more memory and were >>>instruction set compatable. A 1 will still read or write faster than >>>any PC, but it's memory is so proportionally small that it would be >>>ridiculous to run. Was it addressing all the memory it could? iow, couldn't you add more memory? (sorry if it's a dumb question:) When replying, send a copy via email--sometimes I don't keep up with the group! Note the URL for email corrections--Visit my web page to see what I do... www.bright.net/~fixit ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 03 Aug 00 12:04:08 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-221.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!195.25.12.36.MISMATCH!oleane.net!oleane!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61097 In article <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) writes: >It's amazing to me, and other members of the scientific community >how chemistry sets, chemistry classes, and shop classes are being >eliminated from schools. I wish it were amazing to me. But given that our society seems dedicated to eliminating risk at all costs, it's a perfectly logical consequence. Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just don't do it. >Science (and knowledge) are clearly about power. ...and are thus a threat to the ruling class... >And it's going to be interesting to see the future and how >dumb or smart we will be. Somebody stop me before I start getting _really_ pessimistic. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Fri, 04 Aug 00 10:25:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8meg6h$adv$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: I1vwD99abSNuFK//RTxATlQdR97IPPhMZKrHwF3rR0M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2000 13:24:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-231-91 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61133 In article <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >writes: > >>It's amazing to me, and other members of the scientific community >>how chemistry sets, chemistry classes, and shop classes are being >>eliminated from schools. > >I wish it were amazing to me. But given that our society seems >dedicated to eliminating risk at all costs, it's a perfectly >logical consequence. > >Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along >a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than >encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one >not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected >fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. It's called CYA. >This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is >potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just >don't do it. In my neighborhood, the mothers are actively teaching their kids to play in the street. The kids with bicycles are not being taught how to deal with traffic at all. The guys from the fire station are quite sure that they're going to be running over a kid one of these days because these same mothers allow their kids to "park" their tri/bicycles in front of the parked fire engine. > >Somebody stop me before I start getting _really_ pessimistic. STOP! /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 02 Aug 2000 12:02:05 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 2 Aug 2000 12:04:38 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61192 eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) writes: > What kid hasn't learn that the stove is hot by getting burned? > It's a trait of our physical work which goes into common experience. Some kids take their parents seriously when told that the stove gets hot and is dangerous, and manage to avoid ever getting burned by one. One of those same kids did manage to get burned by the muffler on a generator though, because he wasn't warned about it. And he's never touched a muffler on a running (or recently run) engine since. :-) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 2 Aug 2000 15:43:24 -0800 X-Trace: 2 Aug 2000 15:43:24 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61071 The issue is what's called Errorless learning: In article , Eric Smith wrote: >eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) writes: >> What kid hasn't learn that the stove is hot by getting burned? >> It's a trait of our physical work which goes into common experience. > >Some kids take their parents seriously when told that the stove gets hot >and is dangerous, and manage to avoid ever getting burned by one. One >of those same kids did manage to get burned by the muffler on a generator >though, because he wasn't warned about it. And he's never touched a >muffler on a running (or recently run) engine since. :-) I'll see your smiley, and add mine: ;^) I grew up near the only Dow Chemical plant (Torrance) to manufacture napalm. I remember cannisters on trucks, two of which dropped their loads without igniting (lacked the phorphorus fuses). Some time in HS, I dropped a chicken pot pie on my left thigh. To quote my Dr.: they're 400F. You should have seen where my head hit the ceiling, and the subsequent hamburger my 3rd degree burns were. But at the same time (a couple years later) friend and I would also make our own blackpowder and napalm. It's amazing to me, and other members of the scientific community how chemistry sets, chemistry classes, and shop classes are being eliminated from schools. Science (and knowledge) are clearly about power. And it's going to be interesting to see the future and how dumb or smart we will be. I've move a bit onto fissile materials, and because of the net, I've decided that I should try to find a flame thrower (vintage), so that when I taking about flaming, I can really mean it. Low priority. I think I burned my hand a tiny bit on the head of the chain saw I was using on Saturday. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3988a86e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 2 Aug 2000 16:02:06 -0800 X-Trace: 2 Aug 2000 16:02:06 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61073 In article , wrote: > >(sorry if it's a dumb question:) Not a dumb question. >eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >>>>X-MPs were not only faster but they had more memory and were >>>>instruction set compatable. A 1 will still read or write faster than >>>>any PC, but it's memory is so proportionally small that it would be >>>>ridiculous to run. > >Was it addressing all the memory it could? iow, couldn't you add more >memory? Fast memory was expensive in those days (ECL not MOS not BiPolar). The first 1 was delivered with something like 0.5 MW of memory (this from my fallable memory, you can ask some of the ex-CRI guys or maybe check Murry) which was later upgraded to 1 MW (8 MB in equivalent bit quantity if not addressabililty), but it was this order of magnitude. A 23-bit addressing limit (8 MW) limit was reached in the X-MP. 8 MWs (the largest X-Mps were 48s: 4 CPUs and 8 MW shared memory). The first Cray I ran on was a 22 (2 CPUs and 2 MW of memory). These were $20-30M machines including disk). And it wasn't just fast. Seymour banked the memory so that you could start asking for the next word in an array while retrieving a current word. And so on (recursively [in a way]). And thus you learn that your memory retrieval speed (memory bandwidth) determines your speed and NOT your CPU speed (tell that to Apple or Intel). You paid a penality if you had a 1-D array or a 2-D or higher array where you accessed elements modulo the # of banks (typically a power of 2) in your memory (not something that one worries about in a microprocessor memory). So this 23-bit addressing created a short of memory crisis (Seymour did not believe in virtual memory), and most other competitors got knocked out of this market place because they did (page faulting). So Seymour went off to design his next machine, the 2 with 2 orders of magnitude more memory, so our first Cray-2 had more memory on it than all other Cray-1s, X-MPs, and 2 prototype 2s combined. Kinda cool having that power. The guys trying to coordinate I/O that fast: just wasn't possible. It probably effectively knocked Thinking Machines and ETA out of the market. When the slightly faster Y-MP upgrade of the X-MP took over, it was neck and neck for a while on larger codes. Then Ys got big fast memories. So a 64MB PC memory was where CRI was in 1984 (about 8 MW). If you copy a byte at a time, your PC will be faster (the Cray has to mask out 8 bits). If you tried copying words (32- or 64-) the Cray will likely be faster. If you go to disk, the Cray will beat you hands down. If you go to striped disks, no contest. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a86e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3988af49$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 2 Aug 2000 16:31:21 -0800 X-Trace: 2 Aug 2000 16:31:21 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61072 In article <3988a86e$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >In article , > wrote: >> >>(sorry if it's a dumb question:) > >Not a dumb question. Well I hope that you saw the post, because my attempt to also email, as you asked, bounced. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 04 Aug 00 10:31:31 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <852.251T1575T6314724@sky.bus.com> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <8meg6h$adv$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-747.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61250 In article <8meg6h$adv$3@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >>Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along >>a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than >>encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one >>not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected >>fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > >It's called CYA. Given our litigous society, I can understand the railroad's point. I just wish individuals would assume responsibility for their own asses too, rather than looking for someone to sue when they're the ones who screwed up. >>Somebody stop me before I start getting _really_ pessimistic. > >STOP! Thanks. I needed that. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Sat, 05 Aug 00 09:18:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <8mfa0g$n0o$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <398B5AE0.2E0920CB@ev1.net> X-Trace: rmUF/JMkLbg8ePBK0hxllgEG5R/IbIaYgSYNE88gtUQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2000 12:18:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-146 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61282 In article <398B5AE0.2E0920CB@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: >> >> Charles Richmond (richmond@ev1.net) writes: >> > >> > Once the car carrying Mr. Hoover was making a left turn and was >> > involved in an accident. Mr. Hoover made a rule that his driver >> > was *no* longer to make any left turns... >> >> So this explains the old saying "Three rights rights a wrong" >> or words to that effect. >> >"Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do." >Err...but I guess we *were* talking about three rights... That doesn't work here in New England. When I first moved here, I missed a turn and decided to just go around the block to correct my mistake. I almost ended up in Rhode Island (I was in Massachusetts). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: azz@cartman.azz.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> From: Adam Sampson Message-ID: <87n1iuq9r6.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Lines: 12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Carlsbad Caverns" Date: 03 Aug 2000 23:07:25 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.23.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 965421557 212.159.23.152 (Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:39:17 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:39:17 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!peer.news.th.u-net.net!u-net!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!cartman.azz.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61294 lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: > In designing a circuit, for example, obviously the characteristics > of vacuum tube filaments and power consumption are of no value > today. Tell that to the hi-fi buffs. -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 04 Aug 2000 11:59:49 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 4 Aug 2000 12:02:45 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61309 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected > fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is > potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just > don't do it. There was a similar case in Colorado about ten years ago. The idiot was listening to rap "music" at very high volume on headphones, and could not hear the train horn over the "music". In this case AFAIK they did not add any new warning signs and fences. Sometimes the fact that there's no lifeguard for the gene pool is a GOOD thing. I often cite this incident as proof that rap "music" can be harmful to one's health. :-) ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 4 Aug 2000 20:45:04 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8mfa0g$n0o$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 965421904 23576 134.117.136.30 (4 Aug 2000 20:45:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2000 20:45:04 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!serra.unipi.it!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61300 Charles Richmond (richmond@ev1.net) writes: > > Once the car carrying Mr. Hoover was making a left turn and was > involved in an accident. Mr. Hoover made a rule that his driver > was *no* longer to make any left turns... So this explains the old saying "Three rights rights a wrong" or words to that effect. ###### Message-ID: <398B3D44.9474FE95@mail.ptd.net> From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 22:07:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.33.101 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 965426837 204.186.33.101 (Fri, 04 Aug 2000 18:07:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 18:07:17 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!ptdnetP!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61244 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) > writes: > > >It's amazing to me, and other members of the scientific community > >how chemistry sets, chemistry classes, and shop classes are being > >eliminated from schools. > > I wish it were amazing to me. But given that our society seems > dedicated to eliminating risk at all costs, it's a perfectly > logical consequence. > > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected > fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is > potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just > don't do it. Blame the lawyers for that. It's obviously the railroad's fault if someone trespassing on the tracks gets hit by a train. No ordinary person could be expected to know that getting hit by a train might be painful. So railroads must put up fences and signs (and even that is not always enough to avoid liability). In a similar vein, golf courses in New Jersey can sometimes be held liable for lightning strikes. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:29:02 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 34 Message-ID: <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61324 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) > writes: > > >It's amazing to me, and other members of the scientific community > >how chemistry sets, chemistry classes, and shop classes are being > >eliminated from schools. > > I wish it were amazing to me. But given that our society seems > dedicated to eliminating risk at all costs, it's a perfectly > logical consequence. > > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected > fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is > potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just > don't do it. > There is an interesting story about J. Edgar Hoover, head of the U. S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for 48 years... (*No*, *not* the story of his being a cross-dresser...) Once the car carrying Mr. Hoover was making a left turn and was involved in an accident. Mr. Hoover made a rule that his driver was *no* longer to make any left turns... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Jim Connelley" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:48:44 -0500 Organization: PDQ.net (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <35AA2AC4BDD1AACF.0AB65C825833914E.A0351F0CADEBF52E@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <8mfku2$pp7@library2.airnews.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at pdq.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Aug 4 18:51:30 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !bWl+1k-XU^PjG= (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61259 Eric Smith wrote in message ... >AFAIK they did not add any new warning signs and fences. Sometimes >the fact that there's no lifeguard for the gene pool is a GOOD thing. Could use a little chlorine, IMHO ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:04:33 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 32 Message-ID: <398B5A11.132FD863@ev1.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61319 Eric Smith wrote: > > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > > not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected > > fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > > This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is > > potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just > > don't do it. > > There was a similar case in Colorado about ten years ago. The > idiot was listening to rap "music" at very high volume on headphones, > and could not hear the train horn over the "music". In this case > AFAIK they did not add any new warning signs and fences. Sometimes > the fact that there's no lifeguard for the gene pool is a GOOD thing. > > I often cite this incident as proof that rap "music" can be harmful to > one's health. :-) > Did this poor kid get a nomination for the Darwin Award??? Did you ever see a lawnmower with a sign that said: "Caution!! Blade moves when motor is running."??? Or a superman doll that had a label: "Notice: Doll does *not* actually fly."??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:08:00 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 19 Message-ID: <398B5AE0.2E0920CB@ev1.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <8mfa0g$n0o$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61322 "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: > > Charles Richmond (richmond@ev1.net) writes: > > > > Once the car carrying Mr. Hoover was making a left turn and was > > involved in an accident. Mr. Hoover made a rule that his driver > > was *no* longer to make any left turns... > > So this explains the old saying "Three rights rights a wrong" > or words to that effect. > "Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do." Err...but I guess we *were* talking about three rights... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 22:28:06 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 30 Message-ID: <398B7BB6.AC7D4F4B@prescienttech.com> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B5A11.132FD863@ev1.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: y6w+L6rZ+feT0QJhuO5edDZ6DwguZVvchJLWHJSbpq8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2000 02:28:08 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61298 Charles Richmond wrote: > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > > > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > > > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > > > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > > > not notice a train was coming anyway?) Actually, trains can move surprisingly quietly. Add, perhaps, a quarter-inch of new snow on the ground and you won't notice the train before it hits you - even without your headphones! Of course once it hits you it won't matter.... (Note: This argument assumes that the individual in question is not actively looking around and, in general, being aware of his surroundings.) > Did you ever see a lawnmower with a sign that said: "Caution!! Blade > moves when motor is running."??? I'll have to look for those the next time I'm in a power-equipment shop. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3988a86e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <398b757c$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 4 Aug 2000 19:01:32 -0800 X-Trace: 4 Aug 2000 19:01:32 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61230 In article <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de>, S.C.Sprong wrote: I wrote: >>You paid a penality if you had a 1-D array or a 2-D or higher array where >>you accessed elements modulo the # of banks (typically a power of 2) in >>your memory > >Well known issue, also true on peecees. Harder to measure on PCs. >>If you tried copying words (32- or 64-) the Cray will likely be faster. > >Try to provide some data instead. How fast was that memory and how many >cycles did it cost to seek, read, and write to it? I wrote a paper on this for the 1988 Usenix supercomputing workshop. I went on to produce a grad student with Alan Jay Smith who went on and got the disseration of the year at Berkeley a few years later. The data, is interesting in that, I could not get easy explanations for performance. You can rationalize something, many people did. Few proved anything to my satisfaction. The problem with doing this kind of work on a PC is a poor runtime and clock environment. The larger paper was published in IEEE TOC, it's mentioned in my big biblio DB. >>If you go to disk, the Cray will beat you hands down. If you go to >>striped disks, no contest. > >Does the controller on that Cray have U2W-SCSI like speeds? Otherwise, >the peecee, thusly equipped with a striped filesystem, may win. More so. Those guys have been at fast I/O far longer than the PC people. I go skiing and climbing with guys who work Shugart and other disk vendors. Most PCs have single hard drives. The number having more 2 disks falls off rapidly. 4 and more disks on Crays and Convexs are quite common. 4 way striping is minimum entry point. I've heard people with 40-way striping, but I doubt they get that much speed up. Let me warn you from wasting time. The PC is not good architecture to do performance measurement studies. You would walk into a swamp and have better odds. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 05:03:16 +0200 Organization: None Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8o0nos4c63drma2hsq5cpmd72uli18oag8@4ax.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Reply-To: gt@bofh.org NNTP-Posting-Host: lart.bofh.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: porthos.nl.uu.net 965448244 5513 212.136.214.115 (5 Aug 2000 04:04:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@nl.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2000 04:04:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newsfeed0.news.nl.uu.net!lart!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61317 On 25 Jul 2000 13:58:05 GMT, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: > > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The quote's right (in translation anyway). It's by either the pinko Marx brother or his collaborator in "The Communist Manifesto". My guess is that it was by Marx simply because of the apocalyptic style of the sentence. He was good at that sort of thing, especially when his carbuncles were bothering him. Giles. -- Saxo cere comminuit brum. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <398b7612$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 4 Aug 2000 19:04:02 -0800 X-Trace: 4 Aug 2000 19:04:02 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!news-in.nibble.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61334 In article <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Once the car carrying Mr. Hoover was making a left turn and was >involved in an accident. Mr. Hoover made a rule that his driver >was *no* longer to make any left turns... Hey, I read a similar story about Barry Goldwater visiting the NPIC. Two things happened, one was that he got his fingers stuck together with superglue (early superglue), and once he was given directions to head down a hall, and turn left. To which the Senator responded: Young man, never in my life have I made a left turn. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <398b79ad$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 4 Aug 2000 19:19:25 -0800 X-Trace: 4 Aug 2000 19:19:25 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61233 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >I often cite this incident as proof that rap "music" can be harmful to >one's health. :-) The only regret I have about the transistor is its use for rock and roll music. I still have my rifle and sometimes when I hear that noise I think I could shoot them all. --Walter Brattain, 1980 From the Crystal Fire book. as the C-1 was a transistor based machine. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B3D44.9474FE95@mail.ptd.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <398b7a9f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 4 Aug 2000 19:23:27 -0800 X-Trace: 4 Aug 2000 19:23:27 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61235 In article <398B3D44.9474FE95@mail.ptd.net>, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Blame the lawyers for that. No, I blame mothers. Parents. The sharks just come and eat the pickings. We are all to blame. ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> <87n1iuq9r6.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <965455658.58933@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-91.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 02:02:22 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 965455279 204.92.64.17 (Sat, 05 Aug 2000 02:01:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 02:01:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61276 "Adam Sampson" wrote in message news:87n1iuq9r6.fsf@cartman.azz.net... > lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: > > > In designing a circuit, for example, obviously the characteristics > > of vacuum tube filaments and power consumption are of no value > > today. > > Tell that to the hi-fi buffs. and musicians/recording engineers and EMP backup designers . . . Rick > > -- > > Adam Sampson > azz@gnu.org ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8o0nos4c63drma2hsq5cpmd72uli18oag8@4ax.com> From: Charlton Wilbur Message-ID: Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 16:29:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.147.241.73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 965492940 24.147.241.73 (Sat, 05 Aug 2000 12:29:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 12:29:00 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!h00a0cc3fcbb6.ne.mediaone.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61330 Giles Todd writes: > On 25 Jul 2000 13:58:05 GMT, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > > > What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: > > > > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > > The quote's right (in translation anyway). It's by either the pinko > Marx brother or his collaborator in "The Communist Manifesto". > > My guess is that it was by Marx simply because of the apocalyptic > style of the sentence. He was good at that sort of thing, especially > when his carbuncles were bothering him. Sure: adj., mistaken at the top of one's voice. (Ambrose Bierce) The quote is "Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it," and it was first said by George Santayana. Charlton ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 5 Aug 2000 17:20:41 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8mhid9$1gua$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <8mfa0g$n0o$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <398B5AE0.2E0920CB@ev1.net> <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61308 In <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >That doesn't work here in New England. When I first moved here, >I missed a turn and decided to just go around the block >to correct my mistake. I almost ended up in Rhode Island (I >was in Massachusetts). > >/BAH > > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Are they still digging the streets up in Boston? I was there two years ago, and it was horrible trying to navigate through the construction, the one way streets, and the non-orthogonal streets (Of course, it didn't help the fact that I had driven there, and I arrived at about 2:00 AM. Wow, talk about people from different cultures out on the streets between day and night!). :-) Fortunately, I did make it to TCM before it closed. Now, I just have to make it out to California to see the west coast computer history museum (I used to live just a few thousand feet from where it is, but I moved before it opened.). Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Sender: marc@hana.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8o0nos4c63drma2hsq5cpmd72uli18oag8@4ax.com> From: Marco S Hyman Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. -- http://www.snafu.org/ Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 17:56:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.54.48.250 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read 965498206 206.54.48.250 (Sat, 05 Aug 2000 17:56:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 17:56:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61288 Giles Todd writes: > > What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: > > > > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > > The quote's right (in translation anyway). It's by either the pinko > Marx brother or his collaborator in "The Communist Manifesto". Heh.... I guess we're condemned to repeat this little bit of history in our own little newsgroup. If you go back to January of this year you'll find that tha saying was attribted to Santana :-). That was closer than Marx.... George Santayana: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. // marc ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Sun, 06 Aug 00 08:44:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8mjj2v$hdj$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <8mfa0g$n0o$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <398B5AE0.2E0920CB@ev1.net> <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net> <8mhid9$1gua$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: laQbtkPehXtKPDub4kuqJCOpYnhS7wR2jXFGSzi5nlg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2000 11:44:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-166 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61347 In article <8mhid9$1gua$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >> >>That doesn't work here in New England. When I first moved here, >>I missed a turn and decided to just go around the block >>to correct my mistake. I almost ended up in Rhode Island (I >>was in Massachusetts). >Are they still digging the streets up in Boston? I was >there two years ago, >and it was horrible trying to navigate through the construction, That's still going on (it's called the Big Dig but should be studied as a Black Hole). There's been great gnashing of teeth because the fed government decided that allowing a logrithmic increase to costs may not be a good idea. > ... the one >way streets, and the non-orthogonal streets (Of course, it didn't help the >fact that I had driven there, and I arrived at about 2:00 AM. Wow, talk >about people from different cultures out on the streets between day >and night!). :-) Unorganized layouts of the streets are still there. I haven't driven in Boston now for over 8 years so I have no idea if I could find my way to airport now. From the traffic reports I doubt it. :-) > >Fortunately, I did make it to TCM before it closed. Now, I just have to >make it out to California to see the west coast computer history museum >(I used to live just a few thousand feet from where it is, but I moved >before it opened.). You should work on your timing ;-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 08:38:32 +0200 Organization: None Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8o0nos4c63drma2hsq5cpmd72uli18oag8@4ax.com> Reply-To: gt@bofh.org NNTP-Posting-Host: lart.bofh.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: porthos.nl.uu.net 965548892 21530 212.136.214.115 (6 Aug 2000 08:01:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@nl.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2000 08:01:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newsfeed0.news.nl.uu.net!lart!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61377 On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 16:29:00 GMT, Charlton Wilbur wrote: > Sure: adj., mistaken at the top of one's voice. (Ambrose Bierce) Yeah but it's a quick way of finding out the correct answer without bothering to look it up and I am not blushing, honest. Thanks, by the way. Giles. -- Saxo cere comminuit brum. ###### Message-ID: <398D9CC8.788639A@worldnet.att.net> From: William Lynch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 17:14:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.97.233 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 965582055 12.78.97.233 (Sun, 06 Aug 2000 17:14:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 17:14:15 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61350 Charles Richmond wrote: > (snip) > > > > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > > not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected > > fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > > This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is > > potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just > > don't do it. I do think this is because of all the law suits, which are the result of all the lawyers. They have to find *something* to do to make a buck, and RR's, electric utilities, large manufacturers, etc., sure have deep pockets. IIRC power mowers do have warning labels to the extent that it's a bad idea to put your hands under the machine while it's running (I need to cruise a Sears & see excatly how they do read). Does anyone know if a woman (in the version I heard) actually put her poodle into her microwave to dry it, or if that's an urban legend? > There is an interesting story about J. Edgar Hoover, head of the > U. S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for 48 years... > (*No*, *not* the story of his being a cross-dresser...) > > Once the car carrying Mr. Hoover was making a left turn and was > involved in an accident. Mr. Hoover made a rule that his driver > was *no* longer to make any left turns... The bureaucratic mind at work (sic). Bill Lynch ###### From: william.hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 22:14:53 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: <398de2c0.4946189@news.nashville.com> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <398b7612$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61484 On 4 Aug 2000 19:04:02 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >Hey, I read a similar story about Barry Goldwater visiting the NPIC. >Two things happened, one was that he got his fingers stuck together with >superglue (early superglue), and once he was given directions to head >down a hall, and turn left. To which the Senator responded: > Young man, never in my life have I made a left turn. Cute story. Goldwater was a pilot and those guys make left turns all the time. ###### From: timothy.mccaffrey@spam2filter.unisys.com.takethisoff (Tim McCaffrey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 7 Aug 2000 19:21:15 GMT Organization: A series networking Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8mn27b$15d$2@mail.pl.unisys.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397e0bf5$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397e153c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a86e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.63.212.151 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61463 In article <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de>, S.C.Sprong says... > >Eugene Miya wrote: > >[ re memory in a Cray ] > >>And it wasn't just fast. Seymour banked the memory so that you could >>start asking for the next word in an array while retrieving a current >>word. And so on (recursively [in a way]). And thus you learn that your >>memory retrieval speed (memory bandwidth) determines your speed and NOT >>your CPU speed (tell that to Apple or Intel). > Yes, Cray did the same on the CDC 6600 & 6400 (I don't know about the 3600) The 6000 series used 32 banks of memory. The Cyber 170/750 we got years later only had 8(!), rumour was that the reduction from 16 banks (in the previous generation) to 8 had reduced performance 10-15%. It still blew the doors off of the 6500. >This is still true on peecees for common tasks, because there is an >insanely high discrepancy between CPU speed and memory speed, hovering >from around 3:1 up to 10:1. The CDC 6600 had a 10 Mhz clock, and 400ns access time to main memory, with 1000ns cycle time. This was in 1964, IIRC. > >Try to provide some data instead. How fast was that memory and how many >cycles did it cost to seek, read, and write to it? > IIRC, the access time for memory was 14ns. (at least, that number sticks in my head). A friend of mine claimed that the biggest problem with the Cray-1 was that the memory was single ported, which limited its usable bandwidth considerably. The Cray XMP apparently fixed this problem. Since I have no direct knowledge of what he was talking about, I can't argue for or against his claim. - Tim McCaffrey ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <398b7612$1@news.ucsc.edu> <398de2c0.4946189@news.nashville.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <398f05c5$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 7 Aug 2000 11:53:57 -0800 X-Trace: 7 Aug 2000 11:53:57 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61392 In article <398de2c0.4946189@news.nashville.com>, William Hamblen wrote: >On 4 Aug 2000 19:04:02 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >>Hey, I read a similar story about Barry Goldwater visiting the NPIC. ... >>down a hall, and turn left. To which the Senator responded: >> Young man, never in my life have I made a left turn. > >Cute story. Goldwater was a pilot and those guys make left turns all >the time. Oh, I have no doubt. It's in Curtis Peebles' book on the Corona program. ###### From: Jim Esler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:38:18 -0500 Organization: Syntegra (USA) Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <398F1E3A.6CA93243@cdc.com> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <398D9CC8.788639A@worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: James.E.Esler@cdc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip129179-91-141.a.cdc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ns1.cdc.com 965680599 15268 129.179.91.141 (7 Aug 2000 20:36:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.cdc.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 2000 20:36:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news.cdc.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61529 William Lynch wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > (snip) > > > > > > Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along > > > a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Rather than > > > encouraging more awareness around railroad tracks (how could one > > > not notice a train was coming anyway?), the railroads have erected > > > fences and put up lots of "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs. > > > This and other such acts send a clear message: if something is > > > potentially dangerous, don't learn how to do it safely - just > > > don't do it. > > I do think this is because of all the law suits, which are the result of > all the lawyers. They have to find *something* to do to make a buck, and > RR's, electric utilities, large manufacturers, etc., sure have deep > pockets. IIRC power mowers do have warning labels to the extent that > it's a bad idea to put your hands under the machine while it's running > (I need to cruise a Sears & see excatly how they do read). Does anyone > know if a woman (in the version I heard) actually put her poodle into > her microwave to dry it, or if that's an urban legend? http://www.urbanlegends.com/animals/lawyer_microwaved_pet.html The AFU listing for the general question is: U. Old/ditzy woman puts dog in microwave to dry it out- it dies gruesome death/lives to bark again. ["The Pet (or Baby) in the Oven" and "Hot Dog" in TVH. Also "I Read It in the Paper" in TCD.] The "U" indicates: U = unanswered and may be unanswerable -- Jim Esler P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Sender: Ian Stirling From: Ian Stirling Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> <87n1iuq9r6.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Organization: None.. User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.0-test5 (i586)) Lines: 17 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:50:31 EDT Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:50:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61399 Adam Sampson wrote: >lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: >> In designing a circuit, for example, obviously the characteristics >> of vacuum tube filaments and power consumption are of no value >> today. >Tell that to the hi-fi buffs. And I'll bet that both of you are watching at least one vacuum tube right now... -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your second shot perfect. -- Robert A Heinlein. ###### Message-ID: <398F24B1.F8B8A848@mail.ptd.net> From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3973429B.E4EF16D8@hotmail.com> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8o0nos4c63drma2hsq5cpmd72uli18oag8@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:11:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.186.33.132 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net X-Trace: nnrp1.ptd.net 965682689 204.186.33.132 (Mon, 07 Aug 2000 17:11:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 17:11:29 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ptdnetP!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp1.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61410 Charlton Wilbur wrote: > > Giles Todd writes: > > > On 25 Jul 2000 13:58:05 GMT, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > > > > > What's that quote that I'm so fond of that goes something like: > > > > > > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > > > > The quote's right (in translation anyway). It's by either the pinko > > Marx brother or his collaborator in "The Communist Manifesto". > > > > My guess is that it was by Marx simply because of the apocalyptic > > style of the sentence. He was good at that sort of thing, especially > > when his carbuncles were bothering him. > > Sure: adj., mistaken at the top of one's voice. (Ambrose Bierce) > > The quote is "Those who do not remember history are condemned to > repeat it," and it was first said by George Santayana. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Santayana, The Life of Reason, (1905) Vol. 1, ch. 12. ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:17:14 -0700 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9F43512D0F189DEA.EB83EE7C874F7027.3D0975B723D11FC9@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <398F275A.2EDBD383@jkmicro.com> References: <8m5kem$4p8@netaxs.com> <87n1iuq9r6.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Aug 7 16:19:38 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Z9rC1k-Wf\]h9'&7g-9(LqM& (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: alt.folklore.computers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jkmicro.com!anonymous Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61420 Ian Stirling wrote: > > Adam Sampson wrote: > >lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: > > >> In designing a circuit, for example, obviously the characteristics > >> of vacuum tube filaments and power consumption are of no value > >> today. > > >Tell that to the hi-fi buffs. > > And I'll bet that both of you are watching at least one vacuum tube > right now... And warming their lunch with one as well... ###### Message-ID: <398FB606.482D89D2@worldnet.att.net> From: William Lynch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B43AD.EE6F5917@ev1.net> <398D9CC8.788639A@worldnet.att.net> <398F1E3A.6CA93243@cdc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 07:26:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.174.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 965719571 12.78.174.60 (Tue, 08 Aug 2000 07:26:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 07:26:11 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61465 Jim Esler wrote: > (snip) > > > > I do think this is because of all the law suits, which are the result of > > all the lawyers. They have to find *something* to do to make a buck, and > > RR's, electric utilities, large manufacturers, etc., sure have deep > > pockets. IIRC power mowers do have warning labels to the extent that > > it's a bad idea to put your hands under the machine while it's running > > (I need to cruise a Sears & see excatly how they do read). Does anyone > > know if a woman (in the version I heard) actually put her poodle into > > her microwave to dry it, or if that's an urban legend? > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/animals/lawyer_microwaved_pet.html > > The AFU listing for the general question is: > > U. Old/ditzy woman puts dog in microwave to dry it out- it dies > gruesome death/lives to bark again. ["The Pet (or Baby) in the Oven" and > "Hot Dog" in TVH. Also "I Read It in the Paper" in TCD.] > > The "U" indicates: U = unanswered and may be unanswerable Thanks, Jim. Bill Lynch ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <398B5AE0.2E0920CB@ev1.net> <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net> <8mhid9$1gua$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <399051c8$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 8 Aug 2000 11:30:32 -0800 X-Trace: 8 Aug 2000 11:30:32 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61645 In article <8mhid9$1gua$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: >In <8mh0lv$sj5$11@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: You guys realize that IBM and DEC people talking the way you guys do is impossible 20 years ago. ;^) >Are they still digging the streets up in Boston? I was there two years ago, >and it was horrible trying to navigate through the construction, the one >way streets, and the non-orthogonal streets (Of course, it didn't help the >fact that I had driven there, and I arrived at about 2:00 AM. Wow, talk >about people from different cultures out on the streets between day >and night!). :-) I appreciate the guys I worked with on my non-tech summer job on the night shift. In the case of streets, we have to come up with a better way to do them. >Fortunately, I did make it to TCM before it closed. Now, I just have to >make it out to California to see the west coast computer history museum Come on down! Lynn Conway is here today, and we are having visitors from Bletchley next week. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <399055e6$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 8 Aug 2000 11:48:06 -0800 X-Trace: 8 Aug 2000 11:48:06 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61646 In article <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >writes: >>It's amazing to me, and other members of the scientific community >>how chemistry sets, chemistry classes, and shop classes are being >>eliminated from schools. > >I wish it were amazing to me. But given that our society seems >dedicated to eliminating risk at all costs, it's a perfectly >logical consequence. It's a consequence of a set of preindustrial values where life was so precious because of early infant morality. >Case in point: Recently a local teenager who was walking along >a railroad track was struck by a train and killed. Oh yes, we have, this too. It's how American society particularly focuses on the poor and weak. It wants to appear heroic. Mother Theresa was not like this. >>Science (and knowledge) are clearly about power. > >...and are thus a threat to the ruling class... Partially. I think the problem lies with the mass themselves. >>And it's going to be interesting to see the future and how >>dumb or smart we will be. > >Somebody stop me before I start getting _really_ pessimistic. Usenet. You can vent here. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> <398b757c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8mn9vi$6dk3e$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39908c2e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 8 Aug 2000 15:39:42 -0800 X-Trace: 8 Aug 2000 15:39:42 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 102 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61544 >Eugene Miya wrote: >>Let me warn you from wasting time. In article <8mn9vi$6dk3e$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de>, S.C.Sprong wrote: >I'm afraid I am. Anyone reading past this point has been warned that they are wasting their time. >>In article <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de>, >>S.C.Sprong wrote: >>>Eugene Miya wrote: > >>>>You paid a penality if you had a 1-D array or a 2-D or higher array where >>>>you accessed elements modulo the # of banks (typically a power of 2) in >>>>your memory >>>Well known issue, also true on peecees. >>Harder to measure on PCs. > >Irrelevant. It's completely relevant. >For some applications it is an serious issue and one tries to >design around it. That a peecee has a slew of other bottle-necks is very >true, but please don't try do pass off memory access stalls as a negligible >factor. Design hardware around it? Write programs around it? You another one of these touchy net types? The sentence reads: >>Harder to measure on PCs. Nothing specific to stalls. >>>>If you tried copying words (32- or 64-) the Cray will likely be faster. >>>Try to provide some data instead. How fast was that memory and how many >>>cycles did it cost to seek, read, and write to it? >>I wrote a paper on this for the 1988 Usenix supercomputing workshop. > >[ evasions snipped ] If taht's what you are going to call it. >Look, it is very simple. Not as simple as you are characterizing. I would not have bothered to write a paper about it were it. >If a Cray from the early eighties, with all its >optimization knobs twiddled, has a maximum memory bandwith of, say, >32 Meg/s (whatever), and a today's peecee has a sustained bandwith of, >say, 250 Meg/s (again, whatever), then that Cray is slower. > >I'm not interested in ``defending'' a peecee -- I think it's inferior >junk -- but facts are facts. >And? If I understood you correctly, the subtopic is your assertion that >an early eighties Cray has a faster disk I/O than a peecee, even more >so with file system striping. With U2W SCSI you can get a practical >bandwith of 75 Meg/s *per channel*, which is filled up with 4 to 6 disks. And you separated out file system caching in memory? >There are quite a lot of students on this campus who have such a set-up >on-line, serving gigabytes per week of material of highly questionable >origin. Ever heard of the FTP server at Walnut Creek? That is a peecee Sure do. >configuration that I expect to see around here in a few years. > >(By the way, I have 3 disks in my peecee, and no, I don't stripe and >I'm not a Pr0N/warez server.) That's nice. >>4 way striping is minimum entry point. > >Striping is to spread a file system over more that 1 disk, interleaving >the blocks if you like to fill the channel bandwidth. so 2 is the minimum >entry point. Irrelevant. One ideally wants orders of magnitude improvment. 2 is nice, 4 is better, 8-16 is best. Need to know how the controller is set up. >What about striping and mirroring at the same time? Another common >reason for such a set-up is to make a cheap newsspool from old disks. Depends on the balance of the system. We certainly did that on our Convex system, but that's internal number crunching (in memory). If it's going to be a network server, unless you have striped network connections (we had) then striping disks for other than fault tolerance doesn't help with performance. There's an issue of granular of moving data around like this. There are a number of newer mass storage architectures with lots of PC cpus, trying to rmember the buzz word, nanoservers or gigaserver? which are better optimized for moving around lots of comparatively small objects. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <3988a86e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> <8mn27b$15d$2@mail.pl.unisys.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <399087a6$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 8 Aug 2000 15:20:22 -0800 X-Trace: 8 Aug 2000 15:20:22 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!HSNX.atgi.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61647 In article <8mn27b$15d$2@mail.pl.unisys.com>, Tim McCaffrey wrote: >In article <8mf9mo$6dhme$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de>, S.C.Sprong says... >>Eugene Miya wrote: >>>banked memory >> >Yes, Cray did the same on the CDC 6600 & 6400 (I don't know about >the 3600) The 6000 series used 32 banks of memory. The Cyber 170/750 >we got years later only had 8(!), rumour was that the reduction from 16 >banks (in the previous generation) to 8 had reduced performance 10-15%. >It still blew the doors off of the 6500. It sort of depends on how much memory you had. I think that our Xs has 16 banks (ECL and MOS). >IIRC, the access time for memory was 14ns. (at least, that number sticks >in my head). A friend of mine claimed that the biggest problem with the >Cray-1 was that the memory was single ported, which limited its usable >bandwidth considerably. The Cray XMP apparently fixed this problem. >Since I have no direct knowledge of what he was talking about, I can't >argue for or against his claim. This is true. The X with features cleaned up by Chen added 3 CPU-to-memory ports so that you could do two loads and a store at the same time. It was possible to visibly measure this on an X. It was about 5 clock cycles to fetch or store a word. ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:40:03 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397cf4d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <397e2d38$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.142.181 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.142.181 X-Trace: 8 Aug 2000 20:40:04 -0700, 207.148.142.181 Lines: 76 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.142.181 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61614 On 25 Jul 2000 17:13:44 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >In article <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu>, >Simon Allaway wrote: >>> Enigma, then playing Bletchley Park and attempting to decode it. >> >>I couldn't agree more. As I ride on the coat-tails of this industry I >>learn more and more about the technology that was once considered >>"high". Dmr is right. We have to have context to understand what we have now. > >We have to have context and semantics, but I hate to tell you this, >it's going to cost. Faster, better, cheaper. Chose two. >Remember: 1) Not all messages were decoded. > 2) Those that were were done in the context of other messages > The trick was determining the key for the day. After that, > anyone could decipher one. > >>As youths we think we have all the answers; > >You know, growing up, I never had, not once had that thought. > >>yet as adults we discover that lots of great people tried before. >>Without history, the present means nothing. > >I can assure you that lots of great people made mistakes. >Many idea, inventions, discoveries, what have you, are merely >who got there first. It can cut both ways. I would not recommend, for >instance, spending too much time trying to trisect an arbitrary angle >using compass and straight edge, but it might be useful to show a proof >of impossibility using algebra. > > >"Perhaps as one of the older generation. I should preach a little >sermon to you, but I do not propose to do so. I shall, instead, give >you a word of advice about how to deal behave toward your elders. When >an old and distinguished person speaks to you, listen to him carefully >and with respect -- *but do not believe him. Never put your trust in >anything but your own intellect.* Your elder no matter whether he has >gray hair or lost his hair, no matter whether he is a Nobel Laureate, >*may be wrong*... So you must always be skeptical -- *always think for >yourself.*" > --LP Paraphrases a statement attributed to Gautama Buddha in IIRC the Diamond? Sutra that I posted in my bedroom as a youth: "Do not believe in statements made by anyone in a position of authority, solely because of their position or authority, unless it can be confirmed to be true by your own reasoning and intellect." Another favourite was: "If an elderly and respected scientist is asked his opinion about the feasibility of an approach to a problem, and he says that is is possible, believe him, he is quite probably correct; if he says that it is impossible, don't believe him, he is quite possibly wrong." Paraphrased from old memories of uncertain sources. >Well, you just have lots of ideas and throw away the bad ones. You aren't >going to have good ideas, unless you have *LOTS* of ideas and some >principle of selection. > --LP I like this one -- he could also have usefully added -- keep your ideas to yourself until you have exercised your critical selection -- unless you desire a reputation as somewhat eccentric. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: Simon Lyall Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again, was Re: Any CRAY 1 still in service ?? Date: 9 Aug 2000 14:29:17 GMT Organization: Darkmere Private Access Internet, Auckland, NZ. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8mrprt$taj$1@hama.darkmere.gen.nz> References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <39875280$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3988a40c$1@news.ucsc.edu> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <398B5A11.132FD863@ev1.net> <398B7BB6.AC7D4F4B@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hama.darkmere.gen.nz User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!skynet.be!ihug.co.nz!news.darkmere.gen.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61598 Carl R. Friend wrote: > Actually, trains can move surprisingly quietly. Add, perhaps, a >quarter-inch of new snow on the ground and you won't notice the train >before it hits you - even without your headphones! Of course once it >hits you it won't matter.... (Note: This argument assumes that the >individual in question is not actively looking around and, in general, >being aware of his surroundings.) I saw one of those "When Weather Attacks" TV shows a few weeks ago. It had a train parked at a station and some train buff filming the whole thing. In the foreground people were crossing the tracks while the bells and lights were all going off, about a dozen went across while they all assumed the bells were ringing for the parked train (some looked to check but most didn't). Just as a mother and two kids cross a train appears on the 2nd set of tracks from behind the stopped train. It's going at at least 100km/h (60mph), they stopped the tape when the train was about 10 feet from the mother and kids, they were dead center in the middle of it's tracks. It was pretty obvious what happened next. -- Simon J. Lyall | Very Busy | Mail: simon@darkmere.gen.nz "Inside me Im Screaming, Nobody pays any attention." | eMT. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <397e2d38$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3991d130$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 9 Aug 2000 14:46:24 -0800 X-Trace: 9 Aug 2000 14:46:24 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61710 >>"Perhaps as one of the older generation. I should preach a little >>sermon to you, but I do not propose to do so. I shall, instead, give >>you a word of advice about how to deal behave toward your elders. When >>an old and distinguished person speaks to you, listen to him carefully >>and with respect -- *but do not believe him. Never put your trust in >>anything but your own intellect.* Your elder no matter whether he has >>gray hair or lost his hair, no matter whether he is a Nobel Laureate, >>*may be wrong*... So you must always be skeptical -- *always think for >>yourself.*" >> --LP In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >Paraphrases a statement attributed to Gautama Buddha in IIRC the >Diamond? Sutra that I posted in my bedroom as a youth: > >"Do not believe in statements made by anyone in a position of >authority, solely because of their position or authority, unless >it can be confirmed to be true by your own reasoning and intellect." I think the thing is to develop judgment, Linus called it a selection principle. --Don't respond to peer pressure. --Keep track of what the problem really is: less wishful thinking. --Have a lot of ways of representing things. If one way doesn't work switch quickly to another. --Marvin Minsky, 1994 Oh, while I am at it, let me throw in this cutie: You have to form the habit of not being right for very long. You should just never form distinctions, you should form "tri-stinctions." -- Marvin Minksy >Another favourite was: > >"If an elderly and respected scientist is asked his opinion about >the feasibility of an approach to a problem, and he says that is >is possible, believe him, he is quite probably correct; if he >says that it is impossible, don't believe him, he is quite >possibly wrong." > >Paraphrased from old memories of uncertain sources. Possibly placed in /usr/games/fortune. >>Well, you just have lots of ideas and throw away the bad ones. You aren't >>going to have good ideas, unless you have *LOTS* of ideas and some >>principle of selection. >> --LP > >I like this one -- he could also have usefully added -- >keep your ideas to yourself until you have exercised your critical >selection -- unless you desire a reputation as somewhat eccentric. Well actually, Linus was an advocate of getting ideas out quickly. It cost him the true structure of DNA (but he got the alpha-helix). The interesting thigns about this particular quote is my memory of hearing him say this. And he never lived down vitamin C. But go up to point 3 of Minsky about switching. These guys aren't alone. Astronomer Harlow Shapley also changed his opinions very quickly. ###### From: "John Homes" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:13:30 +1200 Organization: EDS (New Zealand) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8mt6tv$ndu$1@hermes.nz.eds.com> References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <397D98F4.FB60069D@uchicago.edu> <397e2d38$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3991d130$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-134-251-160-231.dhcp.nz.eds.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!news.telstra.net.nz!news.eds.co.nz!news.nz.eds.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61690 Eugene Miya wrote in message <3991d130$1@news.ucsc.edu>... >In article , >Brian Inglis wrote: > > >>Another favourite was: >> >>"If an elderly and respected scientist is asked his opinion about >>the feasibility of an approach to a problem, and he says that is >>is possible, believe him, he is quite probably correct; if he >>says that it is impossible, don't believe him, he is quite >>possibly wrong." >> >>Paraphrased from old memories of uncertain sources. > >Possibly placed in /usr/games/fortune. One of (Arthur C.) Clarke's Laws. John Homes ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again References: <8m5jgk$2kh@netaxs.com> <1197.250T435T7243940@sky.bus.com> <35AA2AC4BDD1AACF.0AB65C825833914E.A0351F0CADEBF52E@lp.airnews.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3993328f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 10 Aug 2000 15:54:07 -0800 X-Trace: 10 Aug 2000 15:54:07 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.yosemite.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61788 >>AFAIK they did not add any new warning signs and fences. Sometimes >>the fact that there's no lifeguard for the gene pool is a GOOD thing. In article <35AA2AC4BDD1AACF.0AB65C825833914E.A0351F0CADEBF52E@lp.airnews.net>, >Could use a little chlorine, IMHO The Germans tried that in WW I in 1915 at Ypres. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Historian's Soapbox Again References: <397243A7.5551@bellsouth.net> <8lk6dd$tps$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8o0nos4c63drma2hsq5cpmd72uli18oag8@4ax.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <399334ef$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 10 Aug 2000 16:04:15 -0800 X-Trace: 10 Aug 2000 16:04:15 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61716 In article , Marco S Hyman wrote: >> > Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. > >Heh.... I guess we're condemned to repeat this little bit of history >in our own little newsgroup. I was faced with a similar observation in the mid-1980s..... but that was the space mailing list. >If you go back to January of this year >you'll find that tha saying was attribted to Santana :-). That's a good one. >George Santayana: > Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Checking my DB: "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends upon retentiveness...Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to fulfil it." - -- George Santayana, _Life of Reason_ (widely misquoted)