From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:09:09 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <397c74db.3892661@news.newsguy.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 964472937 11987 17.205.21.66 (24 Jul 2000 21:08:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2000 21:08:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60515 In article <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca wrote: > In alt.folklore.computers Randy Poe wrote: > : On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:27:25 GMT, Nick Spalding > > > : The 5.25" was perhaps popularized by the IBM PC Interesting bit of revisionist history. The first low cost 5" drive was sold by Apple for the Apple ][. It was revolutionary because of the cost of the controller and drive mechanism, which cost less than a bare 5" drive at the time. There were several popular microcomputers, like the Northstar, that used 5" drives in them as well, also well before the IBM PC was introduced. > I wonder if anyone actually made 8" drives for PC/DOS machines. IBM did. It was in a box that looked very similar to the 5150 -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:19:02 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <397CF916.2619@azstarnet.com> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <397c74db.3892661@news.newsguy.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60645 Al Kossow wrote: > Interesting bit of revisionist history. The first low cost 5" > drive was sold by Apple for the Apple ][. It was revolutionary > because of the cost of the controller and drive mechanism, which > cost less than a bare 5" drive at the time. What about Micropolis? Beat Apple by at least a year. Bill Tucson, AZ ###### From: "Roger Johnstone" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:39:46 +1200 Organization: ihug (Invercargill) Lines: 54 Message-ID: <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <397c74db.3892661@news.newsguy.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Cache-Post-Path: inv.ihug.co.nz!unknown@p12-max2.inv.ihug.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60477 ---------- In article , aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >In article <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca>, >ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca wrote: > >> In alt.folklore.computers Randy Poe wrote: >> : On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:27:25 GMT, Nick Spalding >> >> >> : The 5.25" was perhaps popularized by the IBM PC > >Interesting bit of revisionist history. The first low cost 5" >drive was sold by Apple for the Apple ][. It was revolutionary >because of the cost of the controller and drive mechanism, which >cost less than a bare 5" drive at the time. > >There were several popular microcomputers, like the Northstar, >that used 5" drives in them as well, also well before the IBM >PC was introduced. > > >> I wonder if anyone actually made 8" drives for PC/DOS machines. > >IBM did. It was in a box that looked very similar to the 5150 > >-- >The eBay Curse: >"May you find everything you're looking for.." Apple released their 5.25" drive and controller in 1978, a year after the Apple II came out. The controller card is famous for being so simple, just 8 common-or-garden-variety ICs, including the boot ROM (256 bytes). Apple was still making an almost identical card right up to the end of the Apple II line (1992 or so). I believe there was only ever one revision to the ROM in 1979(?) when they upgraded from 13 sector disks to 16 sectors. Storage was initially 35 tracks x 13 sectors/track x 256 bytes/sector = 113.75KB. The 16 sector disks had 140KB. Per side of course, you could flip the disks to use the other side. Apple never released a double-sided drive (unless you count the Lisa's drives), since by 1985 they were transitioning the Apple II line to the Mac's new fangled 3.5" drives. Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws ------------------------------------------ from Red Dwarf III: The Last Day Kryten:But you would not profit by it. You would gamble your safety for a mere android? Is this the human value you call - friendship? Dave Lister:Don't give me that Star Trek crap, it's too early in the morning. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 14 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:10:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964519854 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:10:54 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:10:54 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60522 Roger Johnstone wrote: >1979(?) when they upgraded from 13 sector disks to 16 sectors. Storage was >initially 35 tracks x 13 sectors/track x 256 bytes/sector = 113.75KB. The 16 >sector disks had 140KB. Per side of course, you could flip the disks to use >the other side. Apple never released a double-sided drive (unless you count And Apple didn't use the sector hole, which meant that making a diskette "flippy" was just a matter of cutting a new write-enable notch in the opposite side. None of this messy cutting of a new pair of holes in the cover for the sector hole. I found my old flippy notcher while cleaning up the other day. -- don ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 25 Jul 2000 18:08:28 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8ll34s$b2s$1@panix2.panix.com> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 964562908 3249 166.84.0.227 (25 Jul 2000 22:08:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2000 22:08:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60578 >And Apple didn't use the sector hole, which meant that making a diskette >"flippy" was just a matter of cutting a new write-enable notch in the >opposite side. None of this messy cutting of a new pair of holes in the >cover for the sector hole. > >I found my old flippy notcher while cleaning up the other day. Was it the plastic or metal notcher? I have a plastic one but got a nice all metal one for a friend long ago: kinda like a single hole puncher. I have a notcher for re-using 5.25" distribution floppies which never had write-allow notches. Gurrrrr! 5.25" floppies did SO MUCH WRONG - no notches or easy way to distinguish single sided from double sided (whereas 8" floppies had the sector hole in different places to distinguish that) - no way to distinguish low density from high density (whereas 3.5" floppies added a hole for high density) - ALL OTHER MEDIA followed the rule "you can't write on a hole" thus write-rings on magtapes, the write-allow tabs on video and audio cassettes, the write-allow button on U-matic tapes, the write protect hole on QIC cartridges, ... Even 8" floppies had write-protect notches, write-allow tabs. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO: 5.25" floppies reversed that with write protect tabs, write-allow notches. (and sadly, 8mm cassettes followed that). -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8ll34s$b2s$1@panix2.panix.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964582785.431889@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 7 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:40:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964582804 203.96.152.26 (Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:40:04 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:40:04 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60606 In article <8ll34s$b2s$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jeff Jonas wrote: >>I found my old flippy notcher while cleaning up the other day. >Was it the plastic or metal notcher? Cheap nasty Taiwanese plastic. -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> From: Dowe Keller Date: 26 Jul 2000 23:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.108 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.108 X-Trace: 26 Jul 2000 23:22:11 -0700, 209.234.196.108 Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.155.26.10!news.sierratel.com!209.234.196.108 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60705 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > Roger Johnstone wrote: > >1979(?) when they upgraded from 13 sector disks to 16 sectors. Storage was > >initially 35 tracks x 13 sectors/track x 256 bytes/sector = 113.75KB. The 16 > >sector disks had 140KB. Per side of course, you could flip the disks to use > >the other side. Apple never released a double-sided drive (unless you count > > And Apple didn't use the sector hole, which meant that making a diskette > "flippy" was just a matter of cutting a new write-enable notch in the > opposite side. None of this messy cutting of a new pair of holes in the > cover for the sector hole. > > I found my old flippy notcher while cleaning up the other day. > > -- don I used to see those advertised in the back of magazines, but I had plenty of success with an old hole-punch. BTW: if I recall correctly the Commodore 1541 didn't use the sector hole either, because I always just punched a notch across from the original. -- dowe@sierratel.com http://www.sierratel.com/dowe ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964685623.441231@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:14:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964685642 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:14:02 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:14:02 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60699 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: >don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >> I found my old flippy notcher while cleaning up the other day. >I used to see those advertised in the back of magazines, but I had >plenty of success with an old hole-punch. I assume I was given mine, but by whom or why escapes me. It's not something I would have bought. A sharp knife and another floppy as a template always worked for me. -- don ###### From: "Roger Johnstone" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:56:12 +1200 Organization: ihug (Invercargill) Lines: 37 Message-ID: <964774546.935329@inv.ihug.co.nz> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <964685623.441231@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Cache-Post-Path: inv.ihug.co.nz!unknown@p17-max2.inv.ihug.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60725 ---------- In article <964685623.441231@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: >In article , >Dowe Keller wrote: >>don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >>> I found my old flippy notcher while cleaning up the other day. >>I used to see those advertised in the back of magazines, but I had >>plenty of success with an old hole-punch. > >I assume I was given mine, but by whom or why escapes me. It's not >something I would have bought. > >A sharp knife and another floppy as a template always worked for me. > >-- don That's what I used to use, until I found a shop dumping some disk notchers for half price about 10 years ago. I still have it, but I haven't needed to use it for a looong time. Anyone seen the 3.5" disk hole punchers, used to turn a DD disk into a HD? I've heard of them but never seen one, since they were a big no-no. Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws ------------------------------------------ from Red Dwarf III: The Last Day Kryten:But you would not profit by it. You would gamble your safety for a mere android? Is this the human value you call - friendship? Dave Lister:Don't give me that Star Trek crap, it's too early in the morning. ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 28 Jul 2000 05:01:11 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8lri4n$h0r$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <964685623.441231@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <964774546.935329@inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 964774871 5523 166.84.0.228 (28 Jul 2000 09:01:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2000 09:01:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60747 >That's what I used to use, until I found a shop dumping some disk notchers >for half price about 10 years ago. I still have it, but I haven't needed to >use it for a looong time. Okay, let's find a more modern use for them! Decorate paper and envelopes with notches a-la the decorative punches the rubber stamper places sell? >Anyone seen the 3.5" disk hole punchers, used to turn a DD disk into a HD? >I've heard of them but never seen one, since they were a big no-no. One I saw looked like a bench press: a metal base to hold the floppy in place and a large lever to pull since it had to cut thru 2 layers of thick plastic. I don't recall cheap versions since so much leverage was needed, and 1.44 meg floppies became affordable so fast. -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 28 Jul 2000 12:30:49 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8lrudp$qa4$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <964685623.441231@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <964774546.935329@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8lri4n$h0r$1@panix3.panix.com> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!abq.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60766 In <8lri4n$h0r$1@panix3.panix.com>, jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) writes: >>That's what I used to use, until I found a shop dumping some disk notchers >>for half price about 10 years ago. I still have it, but I haven't needed to >>use it for a looong time. > >Okay, let's find a more modern use for them! >Decorate paper and envelopes with notches a-la the decorative punches >the rubber stamper places sell? > >>Anyone seen the 3.5" disk hole punchers, used to turn a DD disk into a HD? >>I've heard of them but never seen one, since they were a big no-no. > >One I saw looked like a bench press: a metal base to hold the floppy in >place and a large lever to pull since it had to cut thru 2 layers of >thick plastic. I don't recall cheap versions since so much leverage >was needed, and 1.44 meg floppies became affordable so fast. >-- >Jeffrey Jonas >jeffj@panix(dot)com >The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide I did actually encounter a guy who converted some 720K floppies to 1.44M floppies with an electric drill once. "(name-withheld-to-protect-the-desperate), what happened to these disks?" "Oh, I converted them from 720s to 144s with a drill." "Not in my drive you don't! Here, I'll give you some 144s." Did anyone ever try converting 720s or 144s to 2.88M disks? Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 2 Aug 2000 23:41:17 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: isua1.iastate.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!rhawkins Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61141 In article <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz>, Roger Johnstone wrote: >Apple released their 5.25" drive and controller in 1978, a year after the >Apple II came out. The controller card is famous for being so simple, just 8 >common-or-garden-variety ICs, including the boot ROM (256 bytes). Was it 256 bytes, or 256 bits? istr that it was 32x8, rather than 256x8. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins dochawk@psu.edu [regardless of where the message says it comes from] These opinions will not be those of Penn State until they pay my retainer. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.167 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 25 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: Phillips Enterprises X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:17:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!sea-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61115 Howdy! Rick Hawkins wrote in message news:8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu... > In article <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz>, > Roger Johnstone wrote: > > > >Apple released their 5.25" drive and controller in 1978, a year after the > >Apple II came out. The controller card is famous for being so simple, just 8 > >common-or-garden-variety ICs, including the boot ROM (256 bytes). > > Was it 256 bytes, or 256 bits? istr that it was 32x8, rather than > 256x8. 256 bytes. It filled up the whole page. (32 bytes for a boot program, complete with the nibbleizer? Radical!) RwP ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:03:13 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 965409534 mail2news:7822 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61218 In article ralphp@techie.com "Ralph Wade Phillips" writes: > (32 bytes for a boot program, complete with the nibbleizer? > Radical!) [Coming late to this thread, most of which has already expired off my spool] Why not 32 bytes? I wrote (which means clipping 1N4148 diodes) a boot "ROM" for an 11/40 which could boot off paper tape, MT7, or RK05 (depending upon console key settings) in 32 bytes. (Or perhaps it was 32 words). -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 4 Aug 2000 18:29:52 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Aug 4 13:29:52 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Y#A[1k-X5BtN)l (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61102 On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:03:13 GMT, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> (32 bytes for a boot program, complete with the nibbleizer? >> Radical!) >Why not 32 bytes? Why not, indeed? The 8080 boot loader for the Tarbell WD1771 single-density floppy controller was 32 bytes long. Once upon a time, I could toggle it in on an IMSAI's front panel from memory, in under a minute... What's a nibbleizer, though? Does that significantly complicate matters? ###### From: Don Maslin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 4 Aug 2000 19:22:32 GMT Organization: CTSnet Internet Services Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8mf55o$18cv$1@thoth.cts.com> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: thoth.cts.com 965416952 41375 205.163.0.7 (4 Aug 2000 19:22:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cts.com User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990927 ("Nine While Nine") (UNIX) (crash/3.2 (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!mercury.cts.com!thoth.cts.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61252 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: : In article : ralphp@techie.com "Ralph Wade Phillips" writes: :> (32 bytes for a boot program, complete with the nibbleizer? :> Radical!) : [Coming late to this thread, most of which has already expired off my : spool] : Why not 32 bytes? I wrote (which means clipping 1N4148 diodes) a boot : "ROM" for an 11/40 which could boot off paper tape, MT7, or RK05 : (depending upon console key settings) in 32 bytes. (Or perhaps it was 32 : words). Also, the Wavemate Bullet (Z-80 based) used a 32-byte boot ROM. The Northstar Horizon was rather small as well, though I cannot provide the exact size. - don : -- : Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk : "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of : distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- : easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### From: ddotpowell@netnospamscapeonline.co.uk (David Powell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 20:01:41 GMT Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: <398c725c.5899668@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 NNTP-Posting-Host: userau65.netscapeonline.co.uk X-Trace: 5 Aug 2000 20:01:43 GMT, userau65.netscapeonline.co.uk Lines: 28 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!userau65.netscapeonline.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61381 On 4 Aug 2000 18:29:52 GMT, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:03:13 GMT, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >>> (32 bytes for a boot program, complete with the nibbleizer? >>> Radical!) >>Why not 32 bytes? > >Why not, indeed? The 8080 boot loader for the Tarbell WD1771 single-density >floppy controller was 32 bytes long. Once upon a time, I could toggle it in >on an IMSAI's front panel from memory, in under a minute... > >What's a nibbleizer, though? Does that significantly complicate matters? It was probably that large because, in 8080 code, you were forever using MOV instrs between the regs, instead of doing something useful. Just to put in my 24bits worth, two words were sufficient to boot an RK05 from a PDP-8. 6743, 5031 (octal) in addrs 30 &31. When the PDP-11 came along the RK05 boot increased to 18 bytes An early example of software bloat. Regards, David P. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 5 Aug 2000 20:21:32 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <78083FD63C710640.B0AB4446F892E064.9622A14E5E830DE5@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> <398c725c.5899668@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Aug 5 15:21:32 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Y8uj1k-YFCXq'j (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61340 On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 20:01:41 GMT, David Powell wrote: >>Why not, indeed? The 8080 boot loader for the Tarbell WD1771 single-density >>floppy controller was 32 bytes long. Once upon a time, I could toggle it in >>on an IMSAI's front panel from memory, in under a minute... >It was probably that large because, in 8080 code, you were forever >using MOV instrs between the regs, instead of doing something >useful. Actually, there wasn't much moving of data...IIRC, it was something along the lines of: LXI H,0100H MVI B,128 MVI A,RESET OUT CTL MVI A,READ OUT CTL READ: IN DATA MOV M,A INX H DEC B JNZ READ JMP 0100H (This is off the top of my head, and it's been years since I had to think about it, so don't hold me to absolute accuracy.) This worked without an explicit poll because reading the Tarbell's data port asserted the bus's HOLD line until the next byte was ready, thus freeing drivers from many timing constraints. (Or maybe there was another port involved...it's been a long time.) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 06 Aug 2000 22:50:24 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6uittedshb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 965595027 726 10.0.3.2 (6 Aug 2000 20:50:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2000 20:50:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61389 I have for 2 days passed up answering this one in the hope that someone which actual Apple][ hardware experience would jump in. Seems not, so you will have to do with my Commodore 1541 derived knowledge. jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 02:03:13 GMT, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > >> (32 bytes for a boot program, complete with the nibbleizer? > >> Radical!) > >Why not 32 bytes? > > Why not, indeed? The 8080 boot loader for the Tarbell WD1771 single-density > floppy controller was 32 bytes long. Once upon a time, I could toggle it in > on an IMSAI's front panel from memory, in under a minute... The WD1771 and similar chips (and the stuff in pdp8 or pdp11) were hardware (or microcoded) disk controllers. Such only needed you to provide track/head/sector numbers, the address to transfer to and an read command. Not too much for 32 bytes. Some (pdp8 that only needed 2 instructions?) may have only needed an "boot" command. IBM S/360 only need that, according to an older a.f.c post. > What's a nibbleizer, though? Does that significantly complicate matters? The Apple][ and Commodore 1541 did not give you such luxury. In both cases you had an "controller" of about 10 74xx TTLs, which was really just an disk signal interface. To read an sector you had to: - start the disk motor (set the motor on flag) and wait for spin up (long delay loop) - step the head to the desired track by pulsing the head control lines via their flags (and of course wait after each pulse) - read nibbles (Apple?) or bytes (Commodore) from disk until a sequenze of 5 zeros came. On the 1541 this used the V pin of the 6502 which got triggered each time a byte was ready. The program was in a spin loop checking the V Flag (using BVC instruction) then read byte and reset V - read the bytes containing the sectors data. - at least on the Commodore there were 2 "subsectors" per sector, the first just a few bytes with the track/sector/diskID numbers, the second had the actual data. The first were written on formatting and then left untouched. The second were overwritten on writes - If the track is wrong re-seek and go step 2 - If sector is wrong leave out next long subsector and go step 3 - when bits have all been fetched (5/4 times 256 Bytes) extract the data undoing the GCR 4bit->5bit coding (which prevented long zero runs). This bit is the nibbleizer bit As you see, you are implementing the actualy controller in 6502 software. So that is why 256 bytes were needed, just for an simple read only driver. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: william.hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 22:14:53 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <398de2c8.4953730@news.nashville.com> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <964519835.349946@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61483 On 26 Jul 2000 23:20:35 -0700, Dowe Keller wrote: >I used to see those advertised in the back of magazines, but I had >plenty of success with an old hole-punch. A chassis nibbling tool worked well, too. >BTW: if I recall correctly the Commodore 1541 didn't use the sector >hole either, because I always just punched a notch across from the >original. Soft sectored mini-floppies usually used the sector hole only when writing whole tracks as when formatting a new disk. Once formatted, you could cover the sector hole with a write protect sticker and the disk would work. At least with some controllers. And you had to be careful the diskette didn't get stuck to the envelope. ###### Sender: azz@cartman.azz.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> From: Adam Sampson Message-ID: <873dkgda13.fsf@cartman.azz.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Carlsbad Caverns" Date: 07 Aug 2000 22:41:12 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.23.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 965689101 212.159.23.193 (Mon, 07 Aug 2000 23:58:21 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 23:58:21 BST Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!cartman.azz.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61471 rhawkins@iastate.edu (Rick Hawkins) writes: > >Apple released their 5.25" drive and controller in 1978, a year after the > >Apple II came out. The controller card is famous for being so simple, just 8 > >common-or-garden-variety ICs, including the boot ROM (256 bytes). Anyone know where I could find schematics for the Apple II (the drive controller in particular)? I'd like to build a floppy controller for my homebrew Z80 machine, but using a controller chip doesn't seem very interesting. -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 22:23:01 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 16 Message-ID: <57qpm8.1i7.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <873dkgda13.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 965772662 17 4998 320013932329-0001 000808 22:11:02 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.de X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #121 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.btx.dtag.de!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61565 Adam Sampson writes: >Anyone know where I could find schematics for the Apple II (the drive >controller in particular)? I'd like to build a floppy controller for >my homebrew Z80 machine, but using a controller chip doesn't seem very >interesting. It is in the manual, that came with the floppy drive (ehm, with the controller). 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### Sender: azz@cartman.azz.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <873dkgda13.fsf@cartman.azz.net> <57qpm8.1i7.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> From: Adam Sampson Message-ID: <871yzx9fle.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Carlsbad Caverns" Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:43:41 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.20.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 965942190 212.159.20.193 (Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:16:30 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:16:30 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!diablo.theplanet.net!peer.news.th.u-net.net!u-net!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!cartman.azz.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61753 mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) writes: > >Anyone know where I could find schematics for the Apple II (the drive > >controller in particular)? > It is in the manual, that came with the floppy drive (ehm, with the > controller). Ah, excellent. Trouble is, I'm in England, and pre-Mac Apple hardware is sufficiently rare to be considered extinct. Does anybody know of an electronic copy of the Apple II schematics (or could someone scan them if I asked really nicely)? -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org ###### From: ddotpowell@netnospamscapeonline.co.uk (David Powell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:59:05 GMT Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: <399308c0.4257093@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> <6uittedshb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 31 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.1.166 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.1.166 X-Trace: 10 Aug 2000 19:58:52 GMT, 10.20.1.166 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!10.20.1.166 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61784 On 06 Aug 2000 22:50:24 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: > >The WD1771 and similar chips (and the stuff in pdp8 or pdp11) were >hardware (or microcoded) disk controllers. Such only needed you to >provide track/head/sector numbers, the address to transfer to and an >read command. Not too much for 32 bytes. Some (pdp8 that only needed 2 >instructions?) may have only needed an "boot" command. IBM S/360 only >need that, according to an older a.f.c post. > > You didn't need that question mark, it's much as you describe, but based on the well known KISS principle. At sometime during power-up/boot a bus reset will be issued, clearing all cpu & peripheral adapter registers to zero. Just use that value. T,H,S = 0,0,0 points to the conventional boot sector and loading the boot sector code at 0000 is just as good as any other address. Arrange things such that the primary boot is overwritten by boot sector code at just the right address and control is passed directly. Execute a read instruction, wait in a infinite loop, and let the DMA controller do its job. That's two 12bit instructions on an -8! Regards, David P. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:52:16 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <873dkgda13.fsf@cartman.azz.net> <57qpm8.1i7.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> <871yzx9fle.fsf@cartman.azz.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 965944319 22956 17.205.21.66 (10 Aug 2000 21:51:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2000 21:51:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61752 In article <871yzx9fle.fsf@cartman.azz.net>, Adam Sampson wrote: > mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) writes: > > > >Anyone know where I could find schematics for the Apple II (the drive > > >controller in particular)? > > > It is in the manual, that came with the floppy drive (ehm, with the > > controller). > > Ah, excellent. Trouble is, I'm in England, and pre-Mac Apple hardware > is sufficiently rare to be considered extinct. Does anybody know of an > electronic copy of the Apple II schematics (or could someone scan them > if I asked really nicely)? Another interesting book was a Sams publication on the Apple II which had a pretty detailed discussion of how the state machine in the controller worked. -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: 11 Aug 2000 22:23:07 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6uitt7pmxg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> <6uittedshb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <399308c0.4257093@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 966025388 565 10.0.3.2 (11 Aug 2000 20:23:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 2000 20:23:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61790 ddotpowell@netnospamscapeonline.co.uk (David Powell) writes: > On 06 Aug 2000 22:50:24 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > > >The WD1771 and similar chips (and the stuff in pdp8 or pdp11) were > >hardware (or microcoded) disk controllers. Such only needed you to > >provide track/head/sector numbers, the address to transfer to and an > >read command. Not too much for 32 bytes. Some (pdp8 that only needed 2 > >instructions?) may have only needed an "boot" command. IBM S/360 only > >need that, according to an older a.f.c post. > > At sometime during power-up/boot a bus reset will be issued, > clearing all cpu & peripheral adapter registers to zero. Just use > that value. T,H,S = 0,0,0 points to the conventional boot sector > and loading the boot sector code at 0000 is just as good as any other > address. Sure. After all the primary loader can copy itsself to anywhere. > Arrange things such that the primary boot is overwritten by > boot sector code at just the right address and control is passed > directly. Nice way to save an JMP. Just put them 2 instructions on the last 2 words overwritten from disk, with the JMP being written over it. > Execute a read instruction, wait in a infinite loop, and let the DMA > controller do its job. That's two 12bit instructions on an -8! If you have DMA. Even the WD1771 did not have that (or if it had, then not wired on all machines). Many 8bit Micros had no DMA at all, or only for fixed functions (mostly video frame buffer). The PDP 8 IO system looks to be interesting anyway. That IOT instuction looks real cool. And it looks like I am gong to have more to do with 8s, as someone has offered me 2 PDP 8/As (for free!), both with TU56, RK05, RP01 or RP02, TTY or VT100. I will be going to look at them on Wednesday in 1.5 weeks. Now I just need to find/rent space for them. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Stefan Brix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:01:57 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 13 Message-ID: <110820002101574437%sx@brix.de> References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <873dkgda13.fsf@cartman.azz.net> <57qpm8.1i7.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> <871yzx9fle.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Reply-To: sx@brix.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 966020601 18 24169 320045286577-0001 000811 19:03:21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.de X-Sender: 320045286577-0001@t-dialin.net User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.btx.dtag.de!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61829 In article <871yzx9fle.fsf@cartman.azz.net>, Adam Sampson wrote: > Does anybody know of an > electronic copy of the Apple II schematics (or could someone scan them > if I asked really nicely)? I do have the manual Mario was writing about. I'll scan the page(s) for you and send it via Mail (or are binaries welcome in this group?) -- Stefan Brix sx@brix.de http://www.brix.de/ ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 09:36:11 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <965354593snz@dsl.co.uk> <3F52DAE5B16F70E5.1FC55D14DE74BA9B.A9D92087E5F22571@lp.airnews.net> <6uittedshb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <399308c0.4257093@newshost.netscapeonline.co.uk> <6uitt7pmxg.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 966068791 13 27662 320013932329-0001 000812 08:26:31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.de X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #121 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.btx.dtag.de!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61802 Neil Franklin writes: >If you have DMA. Even the WD1771 did not have that (or if it had, then >not wired on all machines). Many 8bit Micros had no DMA at all, or >only for fixed functions (mostly video frame buffer). DMA is an extgra piece of functionality, so it is in its own (often CPU dependand) chip. Not everyone is forced to use this chip, so there were systems out, where it was missing. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### Sender: azz@cartman.azz.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 5" floppies (was Re: 8" floppy & other stuff) References: <397ef475.9515152@news.primenet.com> <8liafg$trd$1@newsflash.concordia.ca> <964510770.839055@inv.ihug.co.nz> <8mabit$b0m$1@news.iastate.edu> <873dkgda13.fsf@cartman.azz.net> <57qpm8.1i7.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> <871yzx9fle.fsf@cartman.azz.net> <110820002101574437%sx@brix.de> From: Adam Sampson Message-ID: <871yzumqb4.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Carlsbad Caverns" Date: 12 Aug 2000 16:50:39 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.25.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 966098615 212.159.25.10 (Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:43:35 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:43:35 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!cartman.azz.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61832 Stefan Brix writes: > I do have the manual Mario was writing about. I'll scan the page(s) for > you and send it via Mail (or are binaries welcome in this group?) Thanks very much! Would you mind uploading the scans somewhere? That way, other people can get them too... -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org