From: Tom =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ekl=F6f?= Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: The Difference Engine Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:33:06 +0300 Organization: Kolumbus Internet Services Customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kc106u3hel.dial.kolumbus.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!nntp.se.dataphone.net!news.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60097 A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl Sterling called "The Difference Engine." The basic idea was that a fellow named Charles Babbage had developed something he called the analytical engine, basically a steam-powered computer based gears and whatnot instead of your standard electric thingies, operated with punch cards of course. A spin-off of the analytical engine was the "kinotrope," an odd device used to project images comprised of thousands of little bits of colored balsa wood. Then Gibson and Sterling launch into an incomprehensible dribble about this and that, which isn't quite the point of my post so I'll just stop right now. The point is, have there been, or would it be possible to build, steam powered computers or something like the kinotrope? I realize this might be ridiculously off topic, sort of, and hard to answer if one hasn't read the book. Seriously, I'd give my left testicle for a steam powered computer :) -- Tom "Giant Carnivorous Slugs" Eklöf ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 20 Jul 00 16:37:41 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <810.236T2051T9975032@sky.bus.com> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <3977626E.B88F4FBF@below.for.email.address> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-828.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!208.171.248.21.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60181 In article <3977626E.B88F4FBF@below.for.email.address> see@below.for.email.address (Simon Brady) writes: >As an aside, another interesting novel featuring such mechanical >behemoths is Mary Gentle's "Rats and Gargoyles". Working from the basic >magical principle of "as above, so below", students at the University of >Crime manage to change the nature of the universe by hacking the engines >so they produce different answers to what they "should" - since the >engines' results are, by definition, completely logical, it follows that >the laws of logic have to change to accomodate their new behaviour. A >frightening thought if you apply it to real computers! Imagine what the Pentium FDIV bug could have done... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: ron.parker@povray.org (Ron Parker) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> Reply-To: ron.parker@povray.org Approved: 9 out of 10 sysadmins X-Newsreader: Mircosoft Outhouse Excess 6.66 X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 10 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:50:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.202.195.127 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 964119027 216.202.195.127 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:50:27 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:50:27 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!ron.parker Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60154 On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:33:06 +0300, Tom Eklöf wrote: >A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl >Sterling called "The Difference Engine." Bruce is the name you're looking for. -- Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 47 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:18:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964120683 203.96.152.26 (Fri, 21 Jul 2000 07:18:03 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 07:18:03 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60161 In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, Tom Eklöf wrote: >A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl >Sterling called "The Difference Engine." The basic idea was that a >fellow named Charles Babbage had developed something he called the >analytical engine, basically a steam-powered computer based gears and >whatnot instead of your standard electric thingies, operated with punch >cards of course. A spin-off of the analytical engine was the >"kinotrope," an odd device used to project images comprised of thousands >of little bits of colored balsa wood. Then Gibson and Sterling launch >into an incomprehensible dribble about this and that, which isn't quite >the point of my post so I'll just stop right now. > >The point is, have there been, or would it be possible to build, steam >powered computers or something like the kinotrope? I realize this might >be ridiculously off topic, sort of, and hard to answer if one hasn't >read the book. I suggest you go look up Babbage on the web or in the library. Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, and got as far as having prototype components built, but the manufacturing of the day let Babbage down, and he was unable to complete the machine. The Science Museum in London took Babbage's plans and built the thing, using more modern manufacturing techniques. It works fine. But the Difference Engine is an overgrown calculator. Babbage also designed the Analytical Engine, the subject of Gibson & Sterling's book. This has never been turned into metal, and was extremely ambitious, and would have met most of the requirements to be considered a true stored program computer. Ada, Countess of Lovelace, designed programs for the designed machine. Perhaps if Babbage had access to a lot more money, manufacturing of components to a high enough degree of precision could have been achieved to complete the Difference Engine in the 19th century, and permit Babbage to build the Analytical Engine. It would have helped if Babbage wasn't such an abrasive and paranoid personality. You can see the Difference Engine and its attached printer (apparently more complex than the Engine itself) on display in the Science Museum. The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. -- don ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 10 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:42:57 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 964122389 129.85.24.56 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:46:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:46:29 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60167 On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:33:06 +0300, Tom Eklöf wrote: [ snip ] >Seriously, I'd give my left testicle for a steam powered computer :) You'll probably lose it anyway if you ever got your wish - crashed by gears ;-) -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### Sender: jrm@IVAN-IV Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> From: Joe Marshall Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) XEmacs/21.2 (Molpe) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 20 Jul 2000 15:55:42 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.166.172.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 964122943 206.166.172.54 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:55:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:55:43 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60153 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, > and got as far as having prototype components built, but the > manufacturing of the day let Babbage down, and he was unable to complete > the machine. > > The Science Museum in London took Babbage's plans and built the thing, > using more modern manufacturing techniques. It works fine. I seem to recall that there were a couple of `bugs' in the design. Not showstoppers by any means, but that if they followed the plans literally it wouldn't have worked (no logical problems, but simple mechanical ones). ###### From: ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 20 Jul 2000 19:58:36 GMT Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8l7llc$1vt$3@newsflash.concordia.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> Reply-To: ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: ieeecs.concordia.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-User: ewdt User-Agent: tin/1.5.1-20000103 ("Sumerland") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i486)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60162 Tom Eklöf wrote: : A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl : Sterling called "The Difference Engine." The basic idea was that a : fellow named Charles Babbage had developed something he called the : analytical engine, basically a steam-powered computer based gears and : whatnot instead of your standard electric thingies, operated with punch : cards of course. A spin-off of the analytical engine was the : "kinotrope," an odd device used to project images comprised of thousands : of little bits of colored balsa wood. Then Gibson and Sterling launch : into an incomprehensible dribble about this and that, which isn't quite : the point of my post so I'll just stop right now. Charles Babbage built an Engine, and designe a few more. He ran out of money, but recently, a full sized one was built from his plans and it worked. Lady Ada Lovelace is creditted as being the first programmer, having done punch cards for the Engines (hence the name for the Ada programming language that the US DOD is so fond of, and everyone else hates). There was also a designed printer attachment that punched cards. The early prototype was hand powered, the larger engines were to be mechanically power driven, most likely by steam. Although a waterwheel could do, or a windmill. (Or a horse on a treadmill, or whatever) The Kinotrope is *not* a spinoff of the engines. It existed, and entertained people with moving images. A precursor to the kinetoscopes that Edison used to show movies on celluloid instead of painted wood. : The point is, have there been, or would it be possible to build, steam : powered computers or something like the kinotrope? I realize this might : be ridiculously off topic, sort of, and hard to answer if one hasn't : read the book. Yes. And the kinotrope is real anyways, although they didn't project images (hmm... I wonder if it were ever combined with a camera obscura room... that could produce a movie theatre) Well, no, not hard to answer without reading the book, since they're real tangible things anyways. No, not offtopic, well not the Babbage Engines. You know, the Soviets had hand cranked mechanical computers in their nuclear bombers, because the EMP would fry electronics... : Seriously, I'd give my left testicle for a steam powered computer :) I think some mechanical calculators were steam powered. ###### From: ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 20 Jul 2000 20:02:11 GMT Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: ieeecs.concordia.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-User: ewdt User-Agent: tin/1.5.1-20000103 ("Sumerland") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i486)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60160 Don Stokes wrote: : In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, : Tom Eklöf wrote: : The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. I must have gotten names confused then, because there was a similar device that existed in the 19th century, ofcourse it didn't project anything, and was an aristocratic novelty, and theatre act. It used illustrated cards on wood boards and you stared through a slit to see them as they were rotated... I thought it was called a kinotrope. ###### Message-ID: <3977626E.B88F4FBF@below.for.email.address> From: Simon Brady Organization: University of Otago CS Dept X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cache-Post-Path: the-rowan.albatross.co.nz!sbrady@kakapo.otago.ac.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.albatross.co.nz X-Original-Trace: 21 Jul 2000 08:35:09 +1200, ns.albatross.co.nz Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:35:13 CDT X-Trace: sv2-9f5venjos3AaPuPsz+qL5Dv3HCHFZ2OfXQifakB9Ys7trhZHhp3+WuKFxGn5TS2/zyti0ZlmbqYfB5g!x72QLeTK9xjwQMMRKrJ3EStb X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:34:54 +1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!news.clear.net.nz!ns.albatross.co.nz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60164 Tom Ekl=F6f wrote: > = > A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl > Sterling called "The Difference Engine." The basic idea was that a > fellow named Charles Babbage had developed something he called the > analytical engine, basically a steam-powered computer based gears and > whatnot instead of your standard electric thingies, operated with punch= > cards of course. As an aside, another interesting novel featuring such mechanical behemoths is Mary Gentle's "Rats and Gargoyles". Working from the basic magical principle of "as above, so below", students at the University of Crime manage to change the nature of the universe by hacking the engines so they produce different answers to what they "should" - since the engines' results are, by definition, completely logical, it follows that the laws of logic have to change to accomodate their new behaviour. A frightening thought if you apply it to real computers! Simon Brady sjbrady Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept. at University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand acm dot org ###### From: "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:29:50 -0400 Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: schmooze.hunter.cuny.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT In-Reply-To: <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!128.158.254.10!news.msfc.nasa.gov!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!news.cuny.edu!schmooze.hunter.cuny.edu!ershc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60220 On 20 Jul 2000 ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca wrote: > Don Stokes wrote: > : In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, > : Tom Eklöf wrote: > > > : The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. > > I must have gotten names confused then, because there was a similar device > that existed in the 19th century, ofcourse it didn't project anything, and That's a kinetoscope. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397761d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 20 Jul 2000 13:32:23 -0800 X-Trace: 20 Jul 2000 13:32:23 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60254 The Babbage Difference engine is under final assembly at the Science Museum in London. I saw it about 3 weeks ago. Doron's team is working on getting the printer working. The total unit is smaller than what I thought it would look like, so then, too, the Rosetta Stone is slightly larger than I thought. Both worth seeing. ###### From: ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 20 Jul 2000 21:39:16 GMT Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8l7ri4$al0$2@newsflash.concordia.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> Reply-To: ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: ieeecs.concordia.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-User: ewdt User-Agent: tin/1.5.1-20000103 ("Sumerland") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i486)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60229 "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" wrote: : On 20 Jul 2000 ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca wrote: :> Don Stokes wrote: :> : In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, :> : Tom Eklöf wrote: :> :> :> : The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. :> :> I must have gotten names confused then, because there was a similar device :> that existed in the 19th century, ofcourse it didn't project anything, and : That's a kinetoscope. Isn't the kinetoscope what Edison called his celluloid film viewer? ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 20 Jul 2000 21:43:17 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8l7rpl$2f3v$1@news.enteract.com> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 964129397 81023 207.229.143.40 (20 Jul 2000 21:43:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 2000 21:43:17 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.5-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60219 Joe Marshall wrote: : don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: :> The Science Museum in London took Babbage's plans and built the thing, :> using more modern manufacturing techniques. It works fine. : I seem to recall that there were a couple of `bugs' in the design. : Not showstoppers by any means, but that if they followed the plans : literally it wouldn't have worked (no logical problems, but simple : mechanical ones). It's apparently fairly common to find these in mechanical drawings of the era. It makes it harder to copy the plans without understanding how they worked. -- dscheidt@enteract.com OTOH, telling a woman to drop her pants when you have a boltcutter in your hands is...special. -- Eric Leblanc ###### From: Tom =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ekl=F6f?= Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:52:37 +0300 Organization: Kolumbus Internet Services Customer Lines: 56 Message-ID: <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: kb151u3hel.dial.kolumbus.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!nntp.se.dataphone.net!news.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60182 ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca wrote: > > Don Stokes wrote: > : In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, > : Tom Eklöf wrote: > > : The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. > > I must have gotten names confused then, because there was a similar device > that existed in the 19th century, ofcourse it didn't project anything, and > was an aristocratic novelty, and theatre act. It used illustrated cards on > wood boards and you stared through a slit to see them as they were > rotated... I thought it was called a kinotrope. Sounds like a kinetoscope to me? [Shameless plug from Webster's] Main Entry: ki·net·o·scope Pronunciation: k&-'ne-t&-"skOp, kI- Function: noun Etymology: from Kinetoscope, a trademark Date: 1894 : a device for viewing through a magnifying lens a sequence of pictures on an endless band of film moved continuously over a light source and a rapidly rotating shutter that creates an illusion of motion Anyhow, for whatever arcane reason, I'm somewhat fascinated with the idea of steam computing and at some level The Difference Engine did make my brain hop around in little circles. It seems that the Engines that Babbage designed and built were indeed a tad, er, buggy. He designed a 12,000-part Analytical Engine, which was never finished except for some 2000 parts which are now on display at the Science Museum of London and still function perfectly. I've been looking at the plans of the Analytical Engine found on, surprisingly enough, Fourmilab's web site and I have to say that the device itself and the math behind it are beautiful. Also, having invented the first computer, Babbage also became the first programmer (and no program is complete without bugs, so it might be safe to say that he was the first one to shout expletetives at a stack of cards) and the first system operator as well. Anyone who's insane in the same fashion might want to check out http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html and have a look at the Analytical Engine emulators (simulators?) they have there. How's that for ancient computer systems? It would be interesting if someone built an Analytical Engine, or even designed a better one. Anyone up for the task? ;) --Tom "seeing 300 men with automatic shotguns hunting a squirrel makes you realize how in-touch the modern man is with nature" Eklöf ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 21 Jul 2000 01:28:08 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 6 Message-ID: <8l88v8$706$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <3977626E.B88F4FBF@below.for.email.address> <810.236T2051T9975032@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 964142888 7174 134.117.136.30 (21 Jul 2000 01:28:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2000 01:28:08 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60217 "Charlie Gibbs" (cgibbs@sky.bus.com) writes: > > Imagine what the Pentium FDIV bug could have done... Obviously, the machine would have chattered itself into the Thames. Glub glub. ###### From: "Boyd Adamson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust205.tnt2.mornington.au.da.uu.net X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 964148365 210.84.255.205 (Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:59:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:59:25 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:12:15 +1000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60216 "Don Stokes" wrote in message news:964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz... > Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, > and got as far as having prototype components built, but the > manufacturing of the day let Babbage down, and he was unable to complete > the machine. > > The Science Museum in London took Babbage's plans and built the thing, > using more modern manufacturing techniques. It works fine. > -- don I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that for years the accepted reason for Babbage's machines not being built was that the engineering of the day wasn't up to the precision. Then the guys who were constructing it for the Science Museum discovered that they could build a perfectly adequate machine using machining tolerances that were common for Babbages era. They concluded that Babbage was stopped by politics, not technical limitations. And probably Economics - the Engine would have been hideously expensive to construct at the time. Boyd ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 21 Jul 2000 08:28:21 +0300 Organization: Compugen, Ltd. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 964157301 25084 194.90.227.168 (21 Jul 2000 05:28:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2000 05:28:21 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60240 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, > Tom Eklöf wrote: > >A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl > >Sterling called "The Difference Engine." The basic idea was that a > >fellow named Charles Babbage had developed something he called the > >analytical engine, basically a steam-powered computer based gears and > >whatnot instead of your standard electric thingies, operated with punch > >cards of course. A spin-off of the analytical engine was the > >"kinotrope," an odd device used to project images comprised of thousands > >of little bits of colored balsa wood. Then Gibson and Sterling launch > >into an incomprehensible dribble about this and that, which isn't quite > >the point of my post so I'll just stop right now. > > > >The point is, have there been, or would it be possible to build, steam > >powered computers or something like the kinotrope? I realize this might > >be ridiculously off topic, sort of, and hard to answer if one hasn't > >read the book. > > I suggest you go look up Babbage on the web or in the library. > > Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ He designed the *Differential* Engine. > and got as far as having prototype components built, but the > manufacturing of the day let Babbage down, and he was unable to complete > the machine. The book's title is just a play on words -- unlike the Differential Engine, the Gibson and (Bruce?) Sterling's engines actually make a difference. The differential engine is nothing fancy, really. It just computes polynomials by the method of successive differences, which several people on this group have demonstrated before. Just cascaded mechanical adders, really. [...] -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: John Hendrickx Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:05:36 +0200 Organization: The University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands Lines: 139 Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: catv8249.extern.kun.nl X-Trace: odysseus.uci.kun.nl 964177547 28882 131.174.118.249 (21 Jul 2000 11:05:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: Tom.Adriaansen@uci.kun.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2000 11:05:47 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1784 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.kpn.net!news.kpn.net!surfnet.nl!surfnet.nl!odysseus.uci.kun.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60238 In article <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net>, darkspace@sunpoint.net says... > A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl > Sterling called "The Difference Engine." The basic idea was that a > fellow named Charles Babbage had developed something he called the > analytical engine, basically a steam-powered computer based gears and > whatnot instead of your standard electric thingies, operated with punch > cards of course. A spin-off of the analytical engine was the > "kinotrope," an odd device used to project images comprised of thousands > of little bits of colored balsa wood. Then Gibson and Sterling launch > into an incomprehensible dribble about this and that, which isn't quite > the point of my post so I'll just stop right now. > > The point is, have there been, or would it be possible to build, steam > powered computers or something like the kinotrope? I realize this might > be ridiculously off topic, sort of, and hard to answer if one hasn't > read the book. > You are aware that Charles Babbage was a historical figure? He designed a mechanical calculator that worked and a programmable mechanical computer, the difference engine, that never got completed. Gibson & Sterling's book examines an alternative history in which the difference engine was completed and shows how that would have affected Victorian society. It sounds like an interesting premise for a book, the book itself was a disappointment, to me at least. Lady Ada was historical too, some of her ideas were incorporated in early programming efforts. See "Engines of the mind" by Joel Shurkin for more information. > Seriously, I'd give my left testicle for a steam powered computer :) > I think I read somewhere that someone built a prototype based on Babbage's designs, found they would have worked. Found some info on my harddisk, from a post by Mark Brader, Wed, 25 Jun 1997 titled "A Chronology of Digital Computing, to 1952". Here's the stuff on Babbage. Contact me if you'd like the entire post. This was a working paper by Brader, it may have evolved into a publication of some form. See "1847-9" for the prototype that was constructed later. Don't know if it was steam powered though. --------------- 1822. Charles Babbage (1792-1871), of London, having reinvented the difference engine, begins his (government-funded) project to build one by constructing a 6-digit calculator using gear technology similar to that planned for the difference engine. 1832. Babbage and Joseph Clement produce a prototype segment of his difference engine, which operates on 6-digit numbers and 2nd-order differences (i.e. can tabulate quadratic polynomials). The complete engine, which would be room-sized, is planned to be able to operate both on 6th-order differences with numbers of about 20 digits, and on 3rd-order differences with numbers of 30 digits. Each addition would be done in two phases, the second one taking care of any carries generated in the first. The output digits would be punched into a soft metal plate, from which a plate for a printing press could be made. But there are various difficulties, and no more than this prototype piece is ever assembled. 1834. George Scheutz, of Stockholm, produces a small difference engine in wood, after reading a brief description of Babbage's project. 1834. Babbage conceives, and begins to design, his "Analytical Engine". Whether or not this machine, if built, would constitute a computer depends on exactly how "computer" is being defined. One essential feature of present-day computers is absent from the design: the "stored-program" concept, which is necessary for implementing a compiler. The program would have been in read-only memory, specifically in the form of punch cards. (In this chronology, such machines will be called "programmable cal- culators".) Babbage continues to work on the design for years, though after about 1840 the changes are minor. The machine would operate on 40-digit numbers; the "mill" (CPU) would have 2 main accumulators and some auxiliary ones for specific purposes, while the "store" (memory) would hold perhaps 100 more numbers. There would be several punch card readers, for both programs and data; the cards would be chained and the motion of each chain could be reversed. The machine would be able to perform conditional jumps. There would also be a form of microcoding: the meaning of instructions would depend on the positioning of metal studs in a slotted barrel, called the "control barrel". The machine would do an addition in 3 seconds and a multiplication or division in 2-4 minutes. 1842. Babbage's difference engine project is officially canceled. (The cost overruns have been considerable, and Babbage is spending too much time on redesigning the Analytical Engine.) 1843. Scheutz and his son Edvard Scheutz produce a 3rd-order difference engine with printer, and the Swedish government agrees to fund their next development. 1847-9. Babbage designs an improved, simpler difference engine, which will operate on 7th-order differences and 31-digit numbers, but nobody is interested in paying to have it built. (In 1989-91, however, a team at London's Science Museum will do just that. They will use components of modern construction, but with tolerances no better than Clement could have provided... and, after a bit of tinkering and detail-debugging, they will find that the machine does indeed work.) 1853. To Babbage's delight, the Scheutzes complete the first full-scale difference engine, which they call a Tabul- ating Machine. It operates on 15-digit numbers and 4th-order differences, and produces printed output as Babbage's would have. A second machine is later built to the same design by the firm of Brian Donkin of London. 1858. The first Tabulating Machine is bought by the Dudley Observatory in Albany, New York, and the second one by the British government. The Albany machine is used to produce a set of astronomical tables; but the observatory's director is then fired for this extravagant purchase, and the machine is never seriously used again, eventually ending up in a museum. (The second machine, however, will have a long and useful life.) 1871. Babbage produces a prototype section of the Analytical Engine's mill and printer. 1878. Ramon Verea, living in New York City, invents a calculator with an internal multiplication table; this is much faster than the shifting carriage or other digital methods. He isn't interested in putting it into production; he just wants to show that a Spaniard can invent as well as an American. 1879. A committee investigates the feasibility of completing the Analytical Engine and concludes that it is impossible now that Babbage is dead. The project is then largely forgotten and is unknown to most of the people mentioned in the last part of this chronology -- though Howard Aiken is an exception. ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 06:37:50 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3978522E.5639@azstarnet.com> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-xfer.siscom.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60179 Ron Parker wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:33:06 +0300, Tom Eklöf wrote: > >A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl > >Sterling called "The Difference Engine." > > Bruce is the name you're looking for. Would that be Bruce hhrrmmmbl then, or just Bruce? I'm not Bruce then. But I'm partial to khaki shorts. And jam made from the local cactus. We keep 'em in line by eating them. Bill Tucson, AZ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964187061.412607@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 30 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:44:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964187080 203.96.152.26 (Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:44:40 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:44:40 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60231 In article , Ariel Scolnicov wrote: >> Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >He designed the *Differential* Engine. A differential is what you find in a car. The Difference Engine can be found in the Science Museum in London. I've seen it. I'm staring at a photo of the beast, with the descriptions in view. I don't *think* the Science Museum is lying about this. (It's hand cranked, BTW. I believe the Analytical Engine was intended to be powered.) The Science Museum calls this Difference Engine No. 2. Difference Engine No. 1 was a much smaller prototype built in 1832, intended as part of the complete engine, which was never finished. (The completed part remains and still functions.) http://www.nmsi.ac.uk/on-line/treasure/objects/1862-89.html >The differential engine is nothing fancy, really. It just computes >polynomials by the method of successive differences, which several >people on this group have demonstrated before. Just cascaded >mechanical adders, really. Indeed. The machine is not huge. It's not even terribly complex, but there are a lot of bits, mostly needing fairly tight tolerances. -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <397761d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964187807.875962@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 14 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:57:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964187826 203.96.152.26 (Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:57:06 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:57:06 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60236 In article <397761d7$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >The Babbage Difference engine is under final assembly at the >Science Museum in London. I saw it about 3 weeks ago. >Doron's team is working on getting the printer working. >The total unit is smaller than what I thought it would look like, >so then, too, the Rosetta Stone is slightly larger than I thought. The Rosetta Stone is, of course, in the British Museum, not the Science Museum (where the Difference Engine is). I saw the Difference Engine about five years ago, even then it had been there a while. The recent effort has been on assembling the printer. -- don ###### From: ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 21 Jul 2000 15:15:35 GMT Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8l9pen$mhd$2@newsflash.concordia.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> Reply-To: ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: ieeecs.concordia.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-User: ewdt User-Agent: tin/1.5.1-20000103 ("Sumerland") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i486)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60237 Tom Eklöf wrote: : ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca wrote: :> Don Stokes wrote: :> : Tom Eklöf wrote: :> : The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. :> I must have gotten names confused then, because there was a similar device :> that existed in the 19th century, ofcourse it didn't project anything, and :> was an aristocratic novelty, and theatre act. It used illustrated cards on :> wood boards and you stared through a slit to see them as they were :> rotated... I thought it was called a kinotrope. : Sounds like a kinetoscope to me? : [Shameless plug from Webster's] : Main Entry: ki·net·o·scope : Pronunciation: k&-'ne-t&-"skOp, kI- : Function: noun : Etymology: from Kinetoscope, a trademark : Date: 1894 : : a device for viewing through a magnifying lens a sequence of pictures : on an endless band of film moved continuously over a light source and a : rapidly rotating shutter that creates an illusion of motion No, wrong time period. That's Thomas Edison's device for viewing celluloid movies. He designed a thing where you popped in a ?penny? and looked through something like the eyepieces on a periscope, at a film running in a box that looked like a slot machine. I'm talking about something older. : Anyone who's insane in the same fashion might want to check out : http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html and have a look at the : Analytical Engine emulators (simulators?) they have there. How's that : for ancient computer systems? : It would be interesting if someone built an Analytical Engine, or even : designed a better one. Anyone up for the task? ;) Hey, why not do it with nanomachines? ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <6lvgnso1ljpteis5s85mkuudm62md8k96g@4ax.com> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <8l7llc$1vt$3@newsflash.concordia.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:53:06 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 964198599 129.85.24.56 (Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:56:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:56:39 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60246 On 20 Jul 2000 19:58:36 GMT, ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca wrote: [ big snip ] >You know, the Soviets had hand cranked mechanical computers in their >nuclear bombers, because the EMP would fry electronics... Never heard of using "hand cranked mechanical computers" in the bombers, but the fuel pumps for the jets were complex mechanical computers, usually idle as the fuel control was done by the electronic computers, but in the event electronic computer died (EMP of just failure), it would step in and allow pilots to fly their planes. I posted here a few years ago the saga of manufacturing the damn things, which were, IMHO, over the limit of maintainable mechanical complexity. -- [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <3978522E.5639@azstarnet.com> Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <964213298.793079@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-92.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:57:34 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 964213014 204.92.64.17 (Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:56:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:56:54 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60204 "bill_h" wrote in message news:3978522E.5639@azstarnet.com... > Ron Parker wrote: > > > > On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:33:06 +0300, Tom Eklöf wrote: > > >A while ago I happened to buy a book by William Gibson and hhrrmmmbl > > >Sterling called "The Difference Engine." > > > > Bruce is the name you're looking for. > > Would that be Bruce hhrrmmmbl then, or just Bruce? > Uh, Bruce Sterling - coauthor of "The Difference Engine" with William Gibson ? > I'm not Bruce then. But I'm partial to khaki shorts. > Full length khakis personally. > And jam made from the local cactus. > The local khakis being indigestible, mostly. Rick > We keep 'em in line by eating them. If you wore full-length khakis, you wouldn't have to worry about the local flora eating you. > > > Bill > Tucson, AZ > ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <397761d7$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964187807.875962@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3978c56b$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 21 Jul 2000 14:49:31 -0800 X-Trace: 21 Jul 2000 14:49:31 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.augsburg.net!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60261 In article <964187807.875962@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, Don Stokes wrote: >In article <397761d7$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >>The Babbage Difference engine is under final assembly at the >>Science Museum in London. I saw it about 3 weeks ago. >>Doron's team is working on getting the printer working. >>The total unit is smaller than what I thought it would look like, >>so then, too, the Rosetta Stone is slightly larger than I thought. > >The Rosetta Stone is, of course, in the British Museum, not the Science >Museum (where the Difference Engine is). Quite true. Both in London (but some ways apart). >I saw the Difference Engine about five years ago, even then it had been >there a while. The recent effort has been on assembling the printer. Doron (who runs the build project was out here last year). They were working on the printer while I was visiting. Non electronic computers are important, because they illustrate that the principles are not confined to "doped semiconductors" to quote a friend. I need to work to get Danny Hillis' tinkertoy tictactoe computer here (reproduced if not his first one). The UK is quite good for collecting artifacts, within country as well as outside the country. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:48:54 -0400 Organization: Kersur Technologies Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8lau58$215$1@news.kersur.net> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <8l8l2r$fit$1@news.kersur.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 01-032.024.popsite.net X-Trace: news.kersur.net 964230120 2085 216.126.160.32 (22 Jul 2000 01:42:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kersur.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2000 01:42:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed.newsreader.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.kersur.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60275 Erratum below: Thats www.lindsaybks.com . Worth your stopping by for a look. >The kinotrope, rather modified, is not a completely bizarre idea. Much >work was done on mechanical televisions until Zyworkin, Farnsworth et. >al. obsoleted it all with fully electronic TV in the late 1930. Look up >Nipkow scanning disks and the work of Britisher John Logie Baird. See >also "Experimental Television" by A. Frederick Collins, originally >copyrighted in 1932, and reprinted by Lindsay Publications >(www.lindsay.com) in 1991, ISBN 1-55918-079-X, if you want to make your >own mechanical TV. I believe it's currently out of print, but if >everyone yells at Lindsay loud enough, he may relent. If you'd like to >see some mechanical televisions, the remnants of at least two units are >on display at the The New England Museum of Wireless and Steam (an >all-too-secret national treasure!) in East Greenwich, RI. > ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:33 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 49 Message-ID: <397917ED.34AB@azstarnet.com> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <964187061.412607@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60268 Don Stokes wrote: > > In article , > Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > >> Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >He designed the *Differential* Engine. > > A differential is what you find in a car. The Difference Engine can be > found in the Science Museum in London. I've seen it. I'm staring at > a photo of the beast, with the descriptions in view. I don't *think* the > Science Museum is lying about this. > > (It's hand cranked, BTW. I believe the Analytical Engine was intended > to be powered.) If they ever built a laptop version, perhaps as a by-product it could perform circumcisions while calculating sums? That would certainly be something different. > The Science Museum calls this Difference Engine No. 2. Difference > Engine No. 1 was a much smaller prototype built in 1832, intended as > part of the complete engine, which was never finished. (The completed > part remains and still functions.) ah, well then. That explains it. < Doesn't Does < Well I don't get it You haven't been circumcised. < Oh. (crossing legs tightly against threatening gestures by difference engine) Dinsdale ?? Bill tucson, AZ ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 22 Jul 2000 11:12:32 +0300 Organization: Compugen, Ltd. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <964187061.412607@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 964253552 3791 194.90.227.168 (22 Jul 2000 08:12:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2000 08:12:32 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60284 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > In article , > Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > >> Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >He designed the *Differential* Engine. > > A differential is what you find in a car. The Difference Engine can be > found in the Science Museum in London. I've seen it. I'm staring at > a photo of the beast, with the descriptions in view. I don't *think* the > Science Museum is lying about this. Hmmm... It uses the method of successive differences, yet is called a "difference engine". Sorry. If you could just pass me that crank shaft, so I can beat my head with it... [...] PS. I've seen it too. I suppose they put up the misleading labels especially for my visit (either that, or I was wrong). -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: als@thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 23 Jul 2000 00:20:57 GMT Organization: Home of the BOFH Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: als@usenet.thangorodrim.de NNTP-Posting-Host: bofh.csn.tu-chemnitz.de X-Trace: narses.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de 964311657 16813 134.109.108.7 (23 Jul 2000 00:20:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.tu-chemnitz.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2000 00:20:57 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!als Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60360 On 20 Jul 2000 15:55:42 -0400, Joe Marshall wrote about Re: The Difference Engine: >don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > >> Charles Babbage really existed. He designed the Difference Engine, >> and got as far as having prototype components built, but the >> manufacturing of the day let Babbage down, and he was unable to complete >> the machine. >> >> The Science Museum in London took Babbage's plans and built the thing, >> using more modern manufacturing techniques. It works fine. > >I seem to recall that there were a couple of `bugs' in the design. >Not showstoppers by any means, but that if they followed the plans >literally it wouldn't have worked (no logical problems, but simple >mechanical ones). You can be almost sure that these ''bugs'' were fully intentional. It was pretty much standard in this time to add subtile errors to your technical drawings (including patent applications) as a means of copy protecting your ideas. This would frustate anybody who tried to just use your published plans as a construction guide without really understanding the design. It's like the small intentional errors map companies put into their commercially sold maps today to catch anybody lifting and selling them as their own ... Regards, Alex. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ EMail : als@thangorodrim.de | WWW : http://www.thangorodrim.de/ If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have | Ceterum censeo Parva Mollia privacy. (Philip Zimmerman, author of PGP) | esse delendam. ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:38:07 +0100 Organization: None Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 964345090 nnrp-12:26453 NO-IDENT hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60364 In article <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net>, Tom =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ekl=F6f?= wrote: > It seems that the Engines that Babbage designed and built were indeed a > tad, er, buggy. From what I remember of an article about the Science Museum manufacturing process, their finished product was fairly based on the drawings produced by Babbage with no change to his design concepts. You have to bear in mind that what he drew was effectively a first-generation spec.: not even an alpha-test design. Since he had no opportunity to make the machine or even to study anything vaguely like it, it's very easy to see why his drawings would have a mistake or two. I'd imagine that these would have been caught in the assembly-stage -- perhaps analogous to assembler syntax errors. Imagine drawing a blueprint of, say, an internal combustion engine without ever having had the opportunity to see any such thing in real life. Simon. -- http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | If Servalan is a walking stereotype, then No junk email please. | Travis is doing a sprint right behind her. | -- Ariana ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.20.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:50:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.146.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 964345824 193.203.146.30 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:50:24 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:50:24 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60363 slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote, in : > From what I remember of an article about the Science Museum > manufacturing process, their finished product was fairly > based on the drawings produced by Babbage with no change to > his design concepts. > > You have to bear in mind that what he drew was effectively a > first-generation spec.: not even an alpha-test design. Since > he had no opportunity to make the machine or even to study > anything vaguely like it, it's very easy to see why his > drawings would have a mistake or two. I'd imagine that these > would have been caught in the assembly-stage -- perhaps > analogous to assembler syntax errors. Wasn't that what in the end happened? -- Nick Spalding ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 23 Jul 2000 13:34:29 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8les95$3mj$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 964359269 3795 134.117.136.30 (23 Jul 2000 13:34:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2000 13:34:29 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60351 Simon Slavin (slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost) writes: > ... > Imagine drawing a blueprint of, say, an internal combustion > engine without ever having had the opportunity to see any > such thing in real life. You obviously haven't worked in a traditional computer shop. Build it first, document it later. ###### From: bbreynolds@aol.comskipthis (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Jul 2000 20:31:38 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000723163138.06316.00000152@nso-fk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60420 In article , "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" writes: >> : The kinotrope is pure fantasy however. >> >> I must have gotten names confused then, because there was a similar device >> that existed in the 19th century, ofcourse it didn't project anything, and > >That's a kinetoscope. > I'm thinking "zoöpticon" for the device with a vertical axis drum and slit arrangement. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Independent/Legacy Systems Consultant: Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA---Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.20.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: <75mmns0shvmbmtf3bp7shcdkkiqaiquqsr@4ax.com> References: <20000723163138.06316.00000152@nso-fk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 11 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 20:44:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.145.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 964385063 193.203.145.213 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:44:23 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:44:23 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!194.176.220.129!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60377 Bruce B. Reynolds wrote, in <20000723163138.06316.00000152@nso-fk.aol.com>: > I'm thinking "zoöpticon" for the device with a vertical axis drum and slit > arrangement. Zeotrope was what I remember for that. I have actually played with one once in my childhood but don't remember where or when except that it was pre-1945. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <39852fa5.18442451@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> <8l9pen$mhd$2@newsflash.concordia.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:59:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.48.192.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 964439940 213.48.192.89 (Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:59:00 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:59:00 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60425 They're called Zoetropes, actually. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### From: ewd_tang@ece.concordia.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 24 Jul 2000 14:49:33 GMT Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8lhl1t$vd4$3@newsflash.concordia.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> <8l9pen$mhd$2@newsflash.concordia.ca> <39852fa5.18442451@news.cableinet.co.uk> Reply-To: ewd_tang@ewdtangstrudelcsperiodconcordiaperiodca.ece.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: ieeecs.concordia.ca NNTP-Posting-User: ewdt User-Agent: tin/1.5.1-20000103 ("Sumerland") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i486)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60431 greenaum@bollocksyahoo.co.uk wrote: : They're called Zoetropes, actually. Ok. I remember kinotrope, kinograph, vivascope, and vivagraph as appropriate names for the device... and that kinetoscope is the Edison invention for celluloid film. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964187807.875962@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <3978c56b$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964271152.22408@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <397cc207$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 24 Jul 2000 15:24:07 -0800 X-Trace: 24 Jul 2000 15:24:07 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60459 In article <964271152.22408@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, Don Stokes wrote: >In article <3978c56b$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >>Non electronic computers are important, because they illustrate that the >>principles are not confined to "doped semiconductors" to quote a friend. > >Perhaps, but in the history of computing, Babbage's designs are nothing >more than a curiosity, a cul-de-sac that was largely unknown to those ^ true. ^ true. >designing the machines that led to the development of digital computers, >and contributed nothing to the technology. I would have said contributed little. >Modern computers and >Babbage's designs share common ancestors such as the Jacquard loom, but >Turing's paper, _On_Computable_Numbers_, doesn't reference Babbage at >all, and subsequent proto-computers owe most of their technology to >radio and telecommunications, and Hollerith punched card machines. Basically agree. Telephone switching gear had an important set of impacts which few appreciate except EEs. There's an interesting interplay between theory and practice by a variety of disciplines working on machines. von Neumann clearly also deserves credit, but none of these guys are without mistakes. Electronics had many advantages. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:28:54 -0400 Organization: Kersur Technologies Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8liq3l$spm$1@news.kersur.net> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <964120664.125250@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8l7ls3$1vt$4@newsflash.concordia.ca> <397774A5.157A0C37@sunpoint.net> <8les95$3mj$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 14-118.024.popsite.net X-Trace: news.kersur.net 964488117 29494 216.126.163.118 (25 Jul 2000 01:21:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kersur.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2000 01:21:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.kersur.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60498 >... >> Imagine drawing a blueprint of, say, an internal combustion >> engine without ever having had the opportunity to see any >> such thing in real life. > > You obviously haven't worked in a traditional computer shop. > > Build it first, document it later. What? Document it? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <3978c56b$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964271152.22408@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <397cc207$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <964493916.693573@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:58:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 964493935 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:58:55 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:58:55 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!nntp.flash.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60521 In article <397cc207$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >Don Stokes wrote: >>Perhaps, but in the history of computing, Babbage's designs are nothing >>more than a curiosity, a cul-de-sac that was largely unknown to those > ^ true. ^ true. >>designing the machines that led to the development of digital computers, >>and contributed nothing to the technology. > >I would have said contributed little. Hmmm. I have a hard time thinking of anything in the history of computing that was contributed by Babbage. Note that this isn't the same thing as saying Babbage didn't think of key technologies first, just that the fact he did didn't affect subsequent developments, partly due to the fact none of his machines reached the stage of being able to demonstrate the new principles, and partly due to the personality of the man himself. -- don ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: 25 Jul 2000 03:36:13 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8lj1vd$cj1$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <3978c56b$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964271152.22408@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <397cc207$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964493916.693573@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 964496173 12897 134.117.136.30 (25 Jul 2000 03:36:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2000 03:36:13 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60518 Don Stokes (don@news.daedalus.co.nz) writes: > > Hmmm. I have a hard time thinking of anything in the history of > computing that was contributed by Babbage. Note that this isn't the > same thing as saying Babbage didn't think of key technologies first, > just that the fact he did didn't affect subsequent developments, partly > due to the fact none of his machines reached the stage of being able to > demonstrate the new principles, and partly due to the personality of the > man himself. He published, yet he perished. No tenure. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:25:28 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <964970728snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <397737D2.92A924CE@sunpoint.net> <3978c56b$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964271152.22408@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <397cc207$1@news.ucsc.edu> <964493916.693573@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 964974407 mail2news:15117 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60856 In article <964493916.693573@shelley.paradise.net.nz> don@news.daedalus.co.nz "Don Stokes" writes: > In article <397cc207$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: > >Don Stokes wrote: > >>Perhaps, but in the history of computing, Babbage's designs are nothing > >>more than a curiosity, a cul-de-sac that was largely unknown to those > > ^ true. ^ true. > >>designing the machines that led to the development of digital computers, > >>and contributed nothing to the technology. > > > >I would have said contributed little. > > Hmmm. I have a hard time thinking of anything in the history of > computing that was contributed by Babbage. Note that this isn't the > same thing as saying Babbage didn't think of key technologies first, > just that the fact he did didn't affect subsequent developments, partly > due to the fact none of his machines reached the stage of being able to > demonstrate the new principles, and partly due to the personality of the > man himself. Surely Babbage's contribution was that his AE project required a programmer, and Ada Lovelace took up that role. Indeed, since she is reputed to have completed "90% of the code" for the AE, she started a tradition which lasts to the present day. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, BT Labs ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: the difference engine References: Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 30 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 19:29:29 EDT Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:29:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60974 (sorry to respond to a moronic troll, but some people might be taken in) In article , fred bloggs wrote: >charles babbage did indeed design the differential engine "difference engine" > but the engineering was not up to actually building the thing. The team that actually built it this decade used Babbage's original engineering drawings, correcting some errors. >the problem was in cutting the teeth of the cogs with sufficient precision That's manufacturing, not engineering, and false too. The team that actually built it used no more precision than was available at the time. >countess ada lovelace , babbage's assistant, She was not Babbage's assistant. She listened to his talks and corresponded with him. In general, nobility do not work as assistants. -- Kragen Sitaker Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we ourselves possess. -- Gandalf the Grey [J.R.R. Tolkien, "Lord of the Rings"] ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: the difference engine References: Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <965183291.400807@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 02:28:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 965183310 203.96.152.26 (Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:28:30 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:28:30 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61038 Kragen Sitaker wrote: >fred bloggs wrote: >>the problem was in cutting the teeth of the cogs with sufficient precision > >That's manufacturing, not engineering, and false too. The team that >actually built it used no more precision than was available at the >time. References? I thought consistency was a problem. Quite a lot of the machine (12,000 parts or something like that) were made, and melted down as scrap. >>countess ada lovelace , babbage's assistant, Ada Augusta, Countess of Lovelace. >In general, nobility do not work as assistants. Indeed. Much science in that era was done by minor nobility working alone (or with employees to do the donkey work financed from personal fortunes). There was little infrastructure for science and research to work within. -- don ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: the difference engine Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <3998ed8f.3428142@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <965183291.400807@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:08:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.48.197.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 965340482 213.48.197.193 (Thu, 03 Aug 2000 23:08:02 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 23:08:02 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61169 On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 02:28:30 GMT, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) sprachen: >Ada Augusta, Countess of Lovelace. It's acceptable to call nobility by their titles, it's done all the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg