From: "Shawn Barnhart" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:50:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.11.249.240 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 962391057 206.11.249.240 (Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:50:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:50:57 CDT Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58791 Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a "standard"? Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? Whenever I ask this, I'm here lots of explanations, none of which ring true: * "For support of higher performance, like gigabit on copper." (which is picky about which Cat 5 it will run on) * "The selection of cable is coincidental to the technology used on the cable" (ie, cable came first) * It's part of a structured cabling system that just happens to support ethernet"; (see above) It just strikes me as odd that there's many miles of copper basically going wasted, and even more odd that 2-pair only cabling isn't more common. Maybe I'm short-sighted, but I'd be a little surprised to see G-bit to the desktop reliably over existing Cat 5 cable plants anyway. I'm also suspicious of the "the cable came first" answers -- if the market needed two-pair Cat 5 (which is supposed to be a signaling spec, not a wire-pair count spec) we'd see two-pair Cat 5. Once in a while I'll use the other two pairs for a second ethernet line, but only when I have to because the user can't wait for the electricians to pull the cable. To this day I have a coworker who claims "in the old days" RJ45 was *not* a standard for 10Base connectors, although none of the ancient ethernet cards I've turned up have RJ11 or anything other than RJ45 connectors. -- swb+usenet@mobocracy.org Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 30 Jun 2000 21:40:50 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 82 Message-ID: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 962394050 441 10.0.3.2 (30 Jun 2000 19:40:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jun 2000 19:40:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58823 "Shawn Barnhart" writes: > Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when > only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a > "standard"? IEEE 802.3 Kommitee declared it that way. > Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? > > * It's part of a structured cabling system that just happens to support > ethernet"; (see above) Thats the one. RJ-45 can be used for phone, RS232, ethernet, tokenring, ..., whateveryouwant. > It just strikes me as odd that there's many miles of copper basically going > wasted, You can allways run 2 services that only want 2 pairs over it, say phone and ethernet, or 2 times ethernet. Just needs 2 adaptors. > and even more odd that 2-pair only cabling isn't more common. 2-pair services such as phone, ethernet, tokenring use different pairs. > I'm short-sighted, but I'd be a little surprised to see G-bit to the desktop > reliably over existing Cat 5 cable plants anyway. They are actually working on it. Apparently the price advantage over glass is so big, to justify the work. > I'm also suspicious of > the "the cable came first" answers But it did. RJ-45 is an fairly old extension to RJ-11 (phone cable). > -- if the market needed two-pair Cat 5 > (which is supposed to be a signaling spec, not a wire-pair count spec) we'd > see two-pair Cat 5. Why invent a new cabling system, that can only be used for ethernet? The cost of 4 extra wires is irrelevant relative to the cost of re-wiring an building (work time costs!). RJ-45 is universal cableing. > Once in a while I'll use the other two pairs for a second ethernet line, but > only when I have to because the user can't wait for the electricians to pull > the cable. That is a legitimate use. Also as permanent solution. > To this day I have a coworker who claims "in the old days" RJ45 was *not* a > standard for 10Base connectors, Ethernet originally [1] ran over fat (ca 1/2") "yellow cable" (10base5), later there came RG-58 "Cheapernet" (10base2). 10baseT and 100baseT are fairly new additions. [1] yes I know, in the beginning the was also an 3 MBit/s version at Xerox, but I do not know its official designation, nor cable type. > although none of the ancient ethernet cards > I've turned up have RJ11 or anything other than RJ45 connectors. Definitely you do not have real ancient cards. The card in the box I am writing this on has 10base5 and 10base2 (what I am using) connectors. And yes, I bought it second hand, from a firm that was changing to 10baseT. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Message-ID: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:42:58 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962397898 192.102.11.4 (Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:44:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:44:58 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58832 Shawn Barnhart wrote: > > Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when > only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a > "standard"? Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? The telephone precedent? Always strung with at least 2 pairs but only 1 pair is used. :-) ###### From: dowe@krikkit.localdomain (Dowe Keller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.106 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.106 Message-ID: <395d7943@news.sierratel.com> Date: 30 Jun 2000 21:53:23 -0700 X-Trace: 30 Jun 2000 21:53:23 -0700, 209.234.196.106 Organization: news.sierratel.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.155.26.10!news.sierratel.com!dowe Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58864 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:42:58 -0400, Alan T. Bowler wrote: >Shawn Barnhart wrote: >> >> Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when >> only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a >> "standard"? Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? > >The telephone precedent? Always strung with at least 2 pairs but only >1 pair is used. :-) FWIW: One can use speaker wire for quick and dirty phone hookups -- dowe@sierratel.com --- There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 45 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 06:37:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.154.98.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net X-Trace: monolith.news.easynet.net 962433609 194.154.98.206 (Sat, 01 Jul 2000 07:40:09 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 07:40:09 BST Organization: [posted via Easynet] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!monolith.news.easynet.net!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58920 In article <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >"Shawn Barnhart" writes: > >> Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when >> only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a >> "standard"? > >IEEE 802.3 Kommitee declared it that way. > > >> Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? >> >> * It's part of a structured cabling system that just happens to support >> ethernet"; (see above) > >Thats the one. RJ-45 can be used for phone, RS232, ethernet, >tokenring, ..., whateveryouwant. > > >> It just strikes me as odd that there's many miles of copper basically going >> wasted, > >You can allways run 2 services that only want 2 pairs over it, say >phone and ethernet, or 2 times ethernet. Just needs 2 adaptors. > > >> and even more odd that 2-pair only cabling isn't more common. > >2-pair services such as phone, ethernet, tokenring use different pairs. > > I have an exhibition wandering round the UK at the moment where I've had to use a common cable format for *everything* simply to ensure the flexibility the designer needs. CAT5 on RJ45 is handling 10baseT, 100BaseT, telephone, ISDN. DC controls, baseband video and audio. This is all seems to work - 100BaseT doesn't like Varicon/Edac 120 way connectors but I didn't really expect it to! - and the only problem I have is that the RJ45 connectors are insufficiently robust to survive the riggers yanking the cables out when we de-rig and move. -- barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 25 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:40:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962451659 203.96.152.26 (Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:40:59 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:40:59 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58888 Neil Franklin wrote: >"Shawn Barnhart" writes: >> although none of the ancient ethernet cards >> I've turned up have RJ11 or anything other than RJ45 connectors. > >Definitely you do not have real ancient cards. The card in the box I >am writing this on has 10base5 and 10base2 (what I am using) connectors. >And yes, I bought it second hand, from a firm that was changing to 10baseT. I assume he's referring to UTP cards. Which have only ever had RJ45s on 'em. Oh, there have been some oddball schemes running essentially 10base-2 style ethernet over a single twisted pair instead of co-ax, but these ain't a standard, and mostly were used to get 10base-2 across gaps where only UTP (or worse) existed. And I sertiously doubt that you have a 10base-5 connector on your box. You probably have a 15-pin AUI connector, but that isn't 10base-anything; it's part of the 802.3 spec for connecting transceivers, the transceiver being 10base-T, 10base-2, 10base-5, 10base-F or whatever. Nor is the big thick cable that plugs into it "thick ethernet", it's an AUI cable. (I always called these "etherpythons" for fairly obvious reasons.) Thick ethernet is the thick 10base-5 co-ax that you attach transceivers onto with vampire taps (or with N connectors). -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 34 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 15:21:44 EDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 19:21:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58928 In article <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com>, P98McCabe wrote: >Barnacle wrote: >>I have an exhibition wandering round the UK at the moment where I've had to >>use a common cable format for *everything* simply to ensure the flexibility >>the designer needs. > >Sorry guys, but I hate just this sort of thing. When faced with similar >connectors, the average user just starts plugging stuff in without any regard >as to *what* is actually connected. > >Some things _should not_ be "plug compatible." True. Perhaps the ideal solution is to provide male connectors with permanently removable pins and female connectors with permanently fillable holes. Then the designer need only pick several pins at random to remove for each distinct kind of connection. If you remove four pins out of 25, you get 12650 possible configurations, none of which will successfully plug into any of the others. (Evil users can remove pins and make "skeleton connectors", of course. And if you use DB-25, they may find skeleton connectors off-the-shelf.) >P.S. - Operators should not have flammable liquids in the machine room either. >Same operator finished his career (and nearly his life) by dumping his alcohol >into the top of a "hot" CRT. Was this an attempt to clean the CRT with the alcohol? :) -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:15:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.48.197.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 962482502 213.48.197.29 (Sat, 01 Jul 2000 21:15:02 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 21:15:02 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58876 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:31:06 -0400, "P Linnane" sprachen: >(The old standard was "thickwire" Ethernet - considerably more expensive, >replaced these days for shorter cable runs) That's the coaxial stuff from about 10 years ago right? What's the 15-pin D connector on old network cards for? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 30 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:52:24 EDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:52:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58919 In article <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk>, wrote: >On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:31:06 -0400, "P Linnane" > sprachen: >>(The old standard was "thickwire" Ethernet - considerably more expensive, >>replaced these days for shorter cable runs) > >That's the coaxial stuff from about 10 years ago right? > >What's the 15-pin D connector on old network cards for? The coaxial stuff from about 10 years ago --- the round cable under a centimeter in diameter, with T connectors to attach cables --- is thinnet (10Base2, I believe), not thicknet. It's actually cheaper than 10BaseT (no hub needed), so some people still use it. The 15-pin D connector is an AUI connector; it lets your NIC talk to an Ethernet transceiver, which handles the actual physical cabling. I'm not clear on why this separation of concerns existed, but I guess it did make it easier to switch to thinnet and then 10BaseT. My Sun 3/60, made in 1988, probably wasn't plugged into 10BaseT when it was new, but it happily plugs into 10BaseT now, because it has a 10BaseT transceiver attached to its AUI port. These days, longer cable runs tend to be fiber anyway, not thicknet. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 01 Jul 2000 17:17:07 -0600 Organization: NMSU Computer Science Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1bpuoxh24s.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 962493435 24929 128.123.64.113 (1 Jul 2000 23:17:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2000 23:17:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feedeast.news.agis.net!agis!atl1-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58883 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk writes: > On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:31:06 -0400, "P Linnane" > sprachen: > > >(The old standard was "thickwire" Ethernet - considerably more expensive, > >replaced these days for shorter cable runs) > > That's the coaxial stuff from about 10 years ago right? Ten years, 20 years... > What's the 15-pin D connector on old network cards for? For reasons that I'm sure made sense at the time, you'd use a multiple-conductor cable to go from your network card to the coax. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer VL 2000 Homepage: http://www.cs.orst.edu/~burnett/vl2000/ ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 1 Jul 2000 23:59:59 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 8 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> <1bpuoxh24s.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Jul 1 18:59:59 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !_<)41k-W],=[ca (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58862 On 01 Jul 2000 17:17:07 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >For reasons that I'm sure made sense at the time, you'd use a >multiple-conductor cable to go from your network card to the coax. Ever tried to run RG-9 (or whatever the doubleshielded, Teflon-insulated RG-8 sized cable was called) from the wall to a desktop, or tried fishing it down a wall? The stuff is hard to work with on that kind of scale. An AUI cable is easier to work with. Really. ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Lines: 26 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <2Ww75.289$t6.4028@news-west.usenetserver.com> X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 21:29:34 EDT Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 18:29:25 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58902 "Shawn Barnhart" wrote in message news:l_575.109$yO2.9937@news7.onvoy.net... > > Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when > only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a > "standard"? Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? > Ethernet is not the only signaling running over those wires. We use the same configuration to run RS-232 and twisted pair 10/100baseT. For RS-232 we get 8 wires, TX/Rx, RTS/CTS, DSR/DTR, and two grounds if we use RS-422 or RS-423. Our PBX uses 6 of the 8 eight wires if we run the telephone over it. And of course we had one customer with 100VG, the old HP attempt at 100mbit ethernet over all four pairs. It really is a case of the wire coming first, and one wire fits all. We have even split out the pairs to connect two RS-423 terminals through one cable when no more wire could be pulled. The cost of the extra copper in that case would have been exceeded in about 3 minutes if an electrician had to run new conduit. Worst abuse...one customer used the extra pairs to run an intercom and music. Cross talk wiped out everything else in the conduit. RF carrier and about 24 volts, audio waveform faithfully replicated on every pair in the cable. Jack Peacock ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? From: panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W. Johnson) Message-ID: <1ed3yw9.rfsppzxhfq3yN%panoptes@iquest.net> References: <2Ww75.289$t6.4028@news-west.usenetserver.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6 Lines: 14 Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:52:53 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.43.48.97 X-Trace: news1.iquest.net 962502774 209.43.48.97 (Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:52:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:52:54 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-out.nibble.net!news-in.nibble.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!209.43.20.105.MISMATCH!iquest!news1.iquest.net!panoptes Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58829 Jack Peacock wrote: > Worst abuse...one customer used the extra pairs to run an intercom and > music. Cross talk wiped out everything else in the conduit. Since the pairs are individually twisted, either the cable was defective, they didn't use the pairs as pairs, or they put way too much power in the extra signals. -- Daniel W. Johnson panoptes@iquest.net http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/ 039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W ###### From: Greg Menke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 01 Jul 2000 23:04:57 -0400 Lines: 17 Sender: gregm@europa Message-ID: References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> X-Trace: CpACePEWG3l0PpbVLRXKWORLSl+8S45ZEvY9A4tov/Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 03:05:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58852 > > The 15-pin D connector is an AUI connector; it lets your NIC talk to an > Ethernet transceiver, which handles the actual physical cabling. I'm > not clear on why this separation of concerns existed, but I guess it > did make it easier to switch to thinnet and then 10BaseT. My Sun 3/60, > made in 1988, probably wasn't plugged into 10BaseT when it was new, but > it happily plugs into 10BaseT now, because it has a 10BaseT transceiver > attached to its AUI port. As late as 1995, I had clients using the AUI thicknet for a Novell network. It was fairly small, maybe 5 or 6 machines in a FBI DNA matching lab. Kind of funcky seeing the thick cables snaking around everywhere, though I never saw what they plugged in to. It was an interesting contract, the clients could be rather surreal at times... Gregm ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <2Ww75.289$t6.4028@news-west.usenetserver.com> <1ed3yw9.rfsppzxhfq3yN%panoptes@iquest.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 26 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:45:59 EDT Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 03:45:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58929 In article <1ed3yw9.rfsppzxhfq3yN%panoptes@iquest.net>, Daniel W. Johnson wrote: >Jack Peacock wrote: > >> Worst abuse...one customer used the extra pairs to run an intercom and >> music. Cross talk wiped out everything else in the conduit. > >Since the pairs are individually twisted, either the cable was >defective, they didn't use the pairs as pairs, or they put way too much >power in the extra signals. It's entirely possible they put way too much power in the extra signals; it sounded like it from Jack's post. If the interference is large compared to the signals being transmitted over the pairs, well, the voltage introduced by the interference on each side of the pair may more or less balance out, but it can still push the receivers outside of their linear region and make it impossible for them to receive. Ethernet ground loops are a more vicious manifestation of the same phenomenon, where the extra voltage comes not from induced emf but from differences in ground potential. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 2 Jul 2000 05:05:31 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 15 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <2Ww75.289$t6.4028@news-west.usenetserver.com> <1ed3yw9.rfsppzxhfq3yN%panoptes@iquest.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Jul 2 00:05:31 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !_?B<1k-Xe/F/oA (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58858 On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:52:53 -0500, Daniel W. Johnson wrote: >Jack Peacock wrote: >> Worst abuse...one customer used the extra pairs to run an intercom and >> music. Cross talk wiped out everything else in the conduit. >Since the pairs are individually twisted, either the cable was >defective, they didn't use the pairs as pairs, or they put way too much >power in the extra signals. This is probably more common than you would think... Ethernet uses pins 1, 2, 3, and 6. Since someone not sufficiently clued up in terminating Cat 5 will stick the wires in the connector shell with pairs in successive holes, this results in one pair of signals on a pair, but the other pair of signals on two different pairs. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50B75.2575$Dr3.171016@monolith.news.easynet.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 06:07:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.154.98.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net X-Trace: monolith.news.easynet.net 962518145 194.154.98.206 (Sun, 02 Jul 2000 07:09:05 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 07:09:05 BST Organization: [posted via Easynet] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!easynet-melon!easynet-uk!easynet.net!monolith.news.easynet.net!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58901 In article <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com>, p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) wrote: >Barnacle wrote: > >>I have an exhibition wandering round the UK at the moment where I've had to >>use a common cable format for *everything* simply to ensure the flexibility >>the designer needs. CAT5 on RJ45 is handling 10baseT, 100BaseT, telephone, >>ISDN. DC controls, baseband video and audio. This is all seems to work - >>100BaseT doesn't like Varicon/Edac 120 way connectors but I didn't really >>expect it to! - and the only problem I have is that the RJ45 connectors are >>insufficiently robust to survive the riggers yanking the cables out when we >>de-rig and move. > >Sorry guys, but I hate just this sort of thing. When faced with similar >connectors, the average user just starts plugging stuff in without any regard >as to *what* is actually connected. I have to say that on the whole I agree. But here I have a system where the only connections are made/changed by engineers who know the system and the implications. The point is that today cable 1119 may be carrying a video+audio feed, tomorrow it's ISDN and the day after, 10BaseT. The only alternative would be to carry cables/connectors for each type to each termination point - giving six times more cable (for a total of around 30km per rig) plus asociated connectors - greater cost in materials, rigging/derigging effort, and transport/storage. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do :( -- barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:50:24 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 24 Message-ID: <093nj8.s5q.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 962531919 18 9155 320013932329-0001 000702 09:58:39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.de X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #121 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.btx.dtag.de!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58865 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk writes: >What's the 15-pin D connector on old network cards for? It is the AUI (Attachment Unit Interface). The yellow cable was that heavy and stiff, that it was impossible to connect it to the back of a computer. So, the media attachment unit (today knows as tranciever) is directly attached to the yellow cable using these famous vampire taps. The yellow cable had marks every 2.5 meters, where these vampire taps were allowed to be mounted. The connection between the computer and the media attachment unit (which was hanging on the yellow cable) could be as far as 50 Meters. Furthermore, the AUI allows to change the physical media. Some computers used 10Base5 when they were new. Later they were switched to 10Base2 and today they use 10BaseT. The only interface, these computers have, is AUI. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 02 Jul 2000 15:35:00 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 962544900 685 10.0.3.2 (2 Jul 2000 13:35:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 13:35:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58942 "Alan T. Bowler" writes: > Shawn Barnhart wrote: > > > > Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when > > only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a > > "standard"? Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? > > The telephone precedent? Always strung with at least 2 pairs but only > 1 pair is used. :-) Telephone once used 2 pairs, 1 for each direction. This was a long time ago. Later the 3rd and 4th wire were used for such things like call hold, etc. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 02 Jul 2000 15:44:36 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 962545476 685 10.0.3.2 (2 Jul 2000 13:44:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 13:44:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58943 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > >"Shawn Barnhart" writes: > >> although none of the ancient ethernet cards > >> I've turned up have RJ11 or anything other than RJ45 connectors. > > > >Definitely you do not have real ancient cards. The card in the box I > >am writing this on has 10base5 and 10base2 (what I am using) connectors. > >And yes, I bought it second hand, from a firm that was changing to 10baseT. > > I assume he's referring to UTP cards. Which have only ever had RJ45s > on 'em. That is what I would call _new_ ethernet cards, not _ancient_ ethernet cards. He does seem to believe UTP=Ethernet. Which is nonsense. > Oh, there have been some oddball schemes running essentially > 10base-2 style ethernet over a single twisted pair instead of co-ax, but > these ain't a standard, and mostly were used to get 10base-2 across gaps > where only UTP (or worse) existed. A colleague of mine once used loud speaker cable, because he could not fit RG-58 in the space available. Was semi-reliable, lots of lost packets, but enough got through for having, after error correction, a slow but usable connection :-). > And I sertiously doubt that you have a 10base-5 connector on your box. > You probably have a 15-pin AUI connector, Of course :-). The cards are AUI plus an optional internal 10base2 transciever. I should really expect nit pickers in this group. > but that isn't 10base-anything; > it's part of the 802.3 spec for connecting transceivers, the transceiver > being 10base-T, 10base-2, 10base-5, 10base-F or whatever. Nor is the big > thick cable that plugs into it "thick ethernet", it's an AUI cable. (I > always called these "etherpythons" for fairly obvious reasons.) The AUIs? Now that would be a nice name for the yellow cable (I _once_ tried to lay one). > ethernet is the thick 10base-5 co-ax that you attach transceivers onto > with vampire taps (or with N connectors). N connectors? What are they? I have only ever seen the "vampires". -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Floyd Davidson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 02 Jul 2000 06:33:27 -0800 Organization: __________ Lines: 24 Sender: floyd@barrow.com Message-ID: <87n1k0r494.fld@barrow.com> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-176.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: gnus 5.8.3/XEmacs 21.1.9/Linux Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58946 Neil Franklin wrote: >"Alan T. Bowler" writes: > >> Shawn Barnhart wrote: >> > >> > Does anyone know why 10/100 BaseT ethernet is run on 4-pair cabling when >> > only two of those pairs are actually used? How did that become a >> > "standard"? Why RJ-45 connectors when only 2 pair are used as well? >> >> The telephone precedent? Always strung with at least 2 pairs but only >> 1 pair is used. :-) > >Telephone once used 2 pairs, 1 for each direction. This was a long >time ago. Later the 3rd and 4th wire were used for such things like >call hold, etc. I don't think so... A local loop was two wires even long before automatic switching was in use. Sometimes the connection to the telephone set itself included a third wire for ground to allow party line ringing. -- Floyd L. Davidson floyd@barrow.com Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 12:21:50 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 16 Message-ID: <395F6C1D.C1E29A09@prescienttech.com> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> <1bpuoxh24s.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: eZ8IMxuyOldwsXsiHVyj4brLLX00KkFU/ALEtEQjdis= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 16:21:51 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58954 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > For reasons that I'm sure made sense at the time, you'd use a > multiple-conductor cable to go from your network card to the coax. Transmit +/-, Receive +/-, and collision-detect +/-. IIRC, that is. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.167 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 16 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: Phillips Enterprises X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:22:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!sea-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58947 Hi, Neil! Neil Franklin wrote in message news:6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > The AUIs? Now that would be a nice name for the yellow cable (I _once_ > tried to lay one). You mean "Frozen Yellow Garden Hose" - which reflects how flexible the cable was! RwP ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 2 Jul 2000 18:13:48 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <8jnt8c$gc@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> <1bpuoxh24s.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <395F6C1D.C1E29A09@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962561970 nnrp-07:27110 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58949 Carl R. Friend (carl.friend@prescienttech.com) wrote: : Joe Pfeiffer wrote: : > : > For reasons that I'm sure made sense at the time, you'd use a : > multiple-conductor cable to go from your network card to the coax. : Transmit +/-, Receive +/-, and collision-detect +/-. And 2 wires for power (+12V and ground, normally) for the transceiver. The MAU ran off the power supply of the computer that was connected to it. The cable was somewhat unusual. There were 3 twisted pairs for the (essentially differential ECL) Tx, Rx and Collision signals. And a thicker pair (presumably with a less carefully controlled impedance) for the power connections. I once had to make up some special drop leads (my PERQs have normal jackposts, not slidelocks, on the AUI connectors), and getting the cable was an entertainment. -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 2 Jul 2000 18:16:39 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <8jntdn$gl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <87n1k0r494.fld@barrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962561972 nnrp-07:27110 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58950 Floyd Davidson (floyd@ptialaska.net) wrote: : >Telephone once used 2 pairs, 1 for each direction. This was a long : >time ago. Later the 3rd and 4th wire were used for such things like : >call hold, etc. : I don't think so... A local loop was two wires even long before : automatic switching was in use. Sometimes the connection to the : telephone set itself included a third wire for ground to allow : party line ringing. I've seen it said that the most expensive part of the public telephone system is the cable. And thus the whole system was designed so that a subscriber loop (the connection from the exchange to a telephone) was just 2 wires. 2 wires that carry voice, ringing signals, dialing pulses, etc. Of course for private exchanges connected to phones in the same building, it may have made sense to use more than 2 wires to the phones and thus simplify the circuitry somewhat. I doubt it was common, though, since it would have made sense to be able to use standard phones. -tony ###### From: hmv@port.ac.uk (Mike Meredith at home) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:44:56 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 27 Sender: mike@port.ac.uk Message-ID: <8k9oj8.3fl5.ln@lucifer> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com> <397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk> <093nj8.s5q.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-18.marine-betta.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 962546636 9378 62.137.39.146 (2 Jul 2000 14:03:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 14:03:56 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!lucifer!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58961 In article <093nj8.s5q.ln@ds9.klebsch.de>, mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) writes: > greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk writes: > >>What's the 15-pin D connector on old network cards for? > > It is the AUI (Attachment Unit Interface). The yellow cable was that > heavy and stiff, that it was impossible to connect it to the back of a Hell, it was difficult to lay in a cable run if it had been coiled. We used to lay bricks (why we had bricks lying around I've got no idea) on it to try and stop it leaping up and strangling passing PHB's. > computer. So, the media attachment unit (today knows as tranciever) is > directly attached to the yellow cable using these famous vampire > taps. The yellow cable had marks every 2.5 meters, where these vampire > taps were allowed to be mounted. Somebody pointed out that I had to attach vampire taps in 2.5 meter intervals, but failed to point out what the marks were for. I of course attached the taps in between the marks :( Hopefully I'm a bit more clueful these days. At least where I work now, most computers were attached to multi-port transcievers rather than the yellow stuff. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 02 Jul 00 11:41:56 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <536.218T2826T7015735@sky.bus.com> References: <962429173.233643@server16.cable.com><397d5131.40565256@news.cableinet.co.uk><093nj8.s5q.ln@ds9.klebsch.de> <8k9oj8.3fl5.ln@lucifer> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-478.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58978 In article <8k9oj8.3fl5.ln@lucifer> hmv@port.ac.uk (Mike Meredith at home) writes: >Hell, it was difficult to lay in a cable run if it had been >coiled. We used to lay bricks (why we had bricks lying around >I've got no idea) on it to try and stop it leaping up and >strangling passing PHB's. Damn, another missed opportunity for some much-needed natural selection. (Unless you were concerned that innocent bystanders might also get hurt.) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:58:54 +0100 Message-ID: <395FAD0E.E6B043D3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962572047 nnrp-08:27627 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59029 Neil Franklin wrote: > Telephone once used 2 pairs, 1 for each direction. This was a long > time ago. Later the 3rd and 4th wire were used for such things like > call hold, etc. British Telecom uses a six-contact plug. Normally four are used, the normal pair, recall and an indirect ring derived from the pair by a capacitor. When a loop-disconnect phone is dialling it shorts the indirect ring to ground to prevent all the other bells on parallel phones from tinkling. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Daedalus Consulting Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 54 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 00:22:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962583762 203.96.152.26 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:22:42 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:22:42 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59038 In article <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >That is what I would call _new_ ethernet cards, not _ancient_ ethernet I've seen new 10base-2/10base-T cards recently. >> And I sertiously doubt that you have a 10base-5 connector on your box. >> You probably have a 15-pin AUI connector, > >Of course :-). The cards are AUI plus an optional internal 10base2 >transciever. > >I should really expect nit pickers in this group. It;s been the best part of a decade since I put a 10base-5 transceiver on the end of an AUI cable. But I've put more 10base-2, 10base-T, 10base-F, pre-10base-F fibre standards and even microwave transceivers into AUI connectors than I care to count. Calling that connector a 10base-5 connector or a thick ethernet connector is Just Plain Wrong. Nor is AUI cable "thick ethernet" (and I've seen some pretty thin AUI cables), and anyway, there's nothing stopping you plugging small transceivers directly into the AUI socket. >> thick cable that plugs into it "thick ethernet", it's an AUI cable. (I >> always called these "etherpythons" for fairly obvious reasons.) > >The AUIs? Now that would be a nice name for the yellow cable (I _once_ >tried to lay one). The AUIs. 10base-5 cable was always "the big yellow cable", "the hose" or "etherhose". The hose was difficult to deal with but unless seriously mistreated tended to be predictable. Pythons on the other hand, being made of lots of separate pairs individually shielded, could go anywhere. >> ethernet is the thick 10base-5 co-ax that you attach transceivers onto >> with vampire taps (or with N connectors). > >N connectors? What are they? I have only ever seen the "vampires". Screw co-ax connectors. The things you attached the terminators to the hose with, ie the hose ended with an N connector to which you'd screw the terminator into. Sometimes transceivers had them -- you could join two lengths of hose, or with a barrel connector put the transceiver on the end of the cable with the terminator attached via a barrel connector. I've seen a few of these arrangements. Of course the N-connector equipped transceivers missed the whole point of the vampire tap, namely that you could install one without taking the network down. -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 02:07:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 962590047 24.91.12.15 (Sun, 02 Jul 2000 22:07:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 22:07:27 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59051 don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >Nor is AUI cable "thick ethernet" (and I've seen some pretty thin AUI >cables), and anyway, there's nothing stopping you plugging small >transceivers directly into the AUI socket. Nothing (in the Ethernet space) irks me more than people who call AUI cables thick Ethernet. :-) I guess that's one benefit of the switch to UTP (which I've never trusted, but it seems better than it used to be). >>> ethernet is the thick 10base-5 co-ax that you attach transceivers onto >>> with vampire taps (or with N connectors). >> >>N connectors? What are they? I have only ever seen the "vampires". >Screw co-ax connectors. Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC means Baby N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. However, I've heard believable but prosaic claimes that it really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <87n1k0r494.fld@barrow.com> <8jntdn$gl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 23 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:02:33 EDT Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:02:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58962 In article <8jntdn$gl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, Tony Duell wrote: >I've seen it said that the most expensive part of the public telephone >system is the cable. And thus the whole system was designed so that a >subscriber loop (the connection from the exchange to a telephone) was >just 2 wires. 2 wires that carry voice, ringing signals, dialing pulses, etc. . . . so you'd think they'd try not to use any more wires than necessary, right? >Of course for private exchanges connected to phones in the same building, >it may have made sense to use more than 2 wires to the phones and thus >simplify the circuitry somewhat. I doubt it was common, though, since it >would have made sense to be able to use standard phones. Most private-exchange phones I've seen are not standard phones; they include a wide variety of controls and displays standard phones don't have, and will not work at all if plugged into a standard phone line. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 68 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:03:02 EDT Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:03:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59057 In article , Ric Werme wrote: >Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC means Baby >N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. However, I've heard >believable but prosaic claimes that it really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. I thought it was a Bayonet N???? Connector. I'm not sure why I thought that, though . . . A quick Google suggests "Bayonet Neil-Concelman connector", "Bayonet Nut Connector", "Bayonet Nut Coupling", and "British Naval Connector". <6kk8up$bk1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> from sci.electronics.design from May 1998 suggests http://www.rane.com/par-b.htm, which looks pretty definitive: BNC (bayonet Neill-Concelman) A miniature bayonet locking connector for coaxial cable. It was developed in the late '40s by a collaboration of Paul Neill and Carl Concelman. In 1942, while at Bell Labs, Paul Neill developed what became known as the type N connector, named after him, which became a U.S. Navy standard. Carl Concelman, while at Amphenol, developed a bayonet version of the N connector, which became known as the type C connector, after him (the first true 50-ohm connector). Then, together, they developed a miniature bayonet locking version of the C connector and it was named the type BNC connector, after both of them. There is even an improved threaded version called the threaded Neill-Concelman or TNC connector See BNC RF Connectors for additional details, and JCM for examples. [Thanks to all who wrote me to help clarify this correct meaning. My condolences to all, who with passion, conviction, and great creativity, truly believe differently. It is a sad but true tale that BNC does NOT stand for "baby N connector," or "bayonet connector," or "bayonet Naval connector," or "British Naval Connector" (sorry Microsoft). For further verification search the web for info on Paul Neill and Carl Concelman.] It's beyond me what they have to do with bayonets, which, as far as I know, are six-inch knives used to kill people and commonly attached to the ends of guns. From http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gsj/apr94.htm: During WW2 Radar required a better connector and two designs followed. The first was to make a connector look like a piece of 50 ohm cable as near as possible and this was designed by Mr. Paul Neill at the Bell Laboratories and known as the type 'N' connector. A Carl Concelman however realised that there was a small bit of inductance where the centre pins of the N connector meet. By changing the position of the dielectric used to fill the connector he was able to introduce some reactive cancellation and this type 'C' connector allows it to be used well into the GHz's. Shortly after this Neill and Concelman co-operated on the design of a miniature bayonet locking connector. This combined Neill's mechanical design with Concelman's reactive dielectric and his twist on locking ring. The Bayonet Neill Concelman (BNC) connector had arrived. I'm a little bit puzzled by this "50 ohm cable" stuff. I would expect the resistance of a piece of cable to be proportional to its length, and its impedance to be dependent on frequency and decrease with length (for low frequencies, where capacitive reactance is dominant) or increase with length (for high frequencies, where inductive reactance is dominant). I guess I should have taken some EE classes; can someone explain it in short, simple words? -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <962595026.290928@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-68.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 23:28:41 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962594862 204.92.64.17 (Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:27:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:27:42 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!142.77.1.188!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59006 "Ric Werme" wrote in message news:zzS75.14318> > Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC means Baby > N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. However, I've heard > believable but prosaic claimes that it really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. > -- http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/B/BNC_connector.html And you thought AOL was useless . . . ? ###### From: dowe@krikkit.localdomain (Dowe Keller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) NNTP-Posting-Host: 20923419672.sierratel.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 20923419672.sierratel.com Message-ID: <396019b4@news.sierratel.com> Date: 2 Jul 2000 21:42:28 -0700 X-Trace: 2 Jul 2000 21:42:28 -0700, 20923419672.sierratel.com Organization: news.sierratel.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.155.26.10!news.sierratel.com!dowe Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58991 On Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:03:02 GMT, Kragen Sitaker wrote: > >It's beyond me what they have to do with bayonets, which, as far as I >know, are six-inch knives used to kill people and commonly attached to >the ends of guns. Well, obviously bayonet connectors were originally used to attach those bayonet thingies to guns. When the war ended and people no longer needed to run around and stick people with six-inch knives attached to the end of guns, there were an abundance of these bayonet connectors laying around. somebody got the bright idea to use the connectors to attach cables (after all cables are round like gun-barrels, you see) to the backs of computers. Thus out of the nastiness of war computer networking was born! -- dowe@sierratel.com --- There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 3 Jul 2000 11:16:44 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8jpsms$bgd$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59032 In article , Kragen Sitaker wrote: >I'm a little bit puzzled by this "50 ohm cable" stuff. I would expect >the resistance of a piece of cable to be proportional to its length, >and its impedance to be dependent on frequency and decrease with length >(for low frequencies, where capacitive reactance is dominant) or >increase with length (for high frequencies, where inductive reactance >is dominant). I guess I should have taken some EE classes; can someone >explain it in short, simple words? I'll try: Co-axial cable has some amount of capacitance per unit length (call it 'C'), and some velocity of propogation of signals down the cable (call it 'v'). If you start with a discharged cable, and apply a voltage ('V') across the core and screen at one end, you start a rising edge running along the cable. Thus, in time 't', an extra length 'v * t' of cable gets charged to voltage 'V'. That length of cable has capacitance 'C * v * t', and thus requires a charge of 'C * v * t * V' to charge it up. Thus we're putting charge into the cable at a rate of 'C * v * V'. This is the current into the cable necessary to maintain our end at a voltage of 'V'. Since this varies linearly with 'V', it's equivalent to a pure resistance 'C * v'. This is the characteristic impedence of the cable, which is what's meant in terms like '50ohm cable'. -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 3 Jul 2000 14:22:57 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8jq7k1$a7j$1@top.mitre.org> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <87n1k0r494.fld@barrow.com> <8jntdn$gl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 962634177 10483 128.29.251.13 (3 Jul 2000 14:22:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 14:22:57 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58977 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >Of course for private exchanges connected to phones in the same building, >it may have made sense to use more than 2 wires to the phones and thus >simplify the circuitry somewhat. I doubt it was common, though, since it >would have made sense to be able to use standard phones. Frequently (but not always) true if the subscriber instrument is a single-line unit without special features. Once you add goodies (multiple lines, hold button, privacy lockout, lighted buttons, etc.) to an analog phone the number of wires required skyrockets. And of course two wires won't do the job if the PABX is configured to use ground-start instead of loop-start to signal when the receiver goes off-hook. (I have no feel for how many PABX systems actually used ground-start. Comments from anyone?) One unplanned advantage of this was that when digital PABX systems began to replace the older analog units and huge multiline consoles could be fed from a single RJ12, the now-obsolete 50-pin harmonica connectors that once fed a single desktop instrument could be used to feed several phones and/or non-telephone devices by intalling harmonica-to-RJ12 adapters. New offices don't have them, but older offices will frequently have a harmonica connector, usually hanging from a cable through an oversized hole in the drywall where a plastic box once concealed it. Joe Morris ###### Message-ID: <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:28:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.101.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 962634488 63.15.101.184 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:28:08 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:28:08 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58988 To add something new to this thread, I note in my Black Box catalog that they have three different schemes for cat 5 cables, what they call 568A, 568B, and USOC. Now USOC (what does it stand for?) is not wired for "standard" 10/100BaseT" but it appears that 568A and 568B are the same wiring. What's the difference? Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 15:30:42 +0100 Message-ID: <3960A392.9FE39848@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8jpsms$bgd$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962637041 nnrp-06:3426 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59025 Ben Harris wrote: [A beautiful description of characteristic impedance] > resistance 'C * v'. This is the characteristic impedence of the cable, > which is what's meant in terms like '50ohm cable'. For the sake of completeness I'd just like to add that if the far end is open, then the fact that the current has stopped flowing when it gets to the far end is reflected back at the same speed. If the far end is a dead short the same thing happens to the message about the voltage not being able to rise. And inbetween these if there is a resistor exactly equal to the characteristic impedance at the far end, nothing comes back. That's what terminators are for. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 16:53:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.154.98.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net X-Trace: monolith.news.easynet.net 962643275 194.154.98.206 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:54:35 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:54:35 BST Organization: [posted via Easynet] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!monolith.news.easynet.net!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59048 In article <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: > >To add something new to this thread, I note in my Black Box catalog >that they have three different schemes for cat 5 cables, what they >call 568A, 568B, and USOC. Now USOC (what does it stand >for?) is not wired for "standard" 10/100BaseT" but it appears that >568A and 568B are the same wiring. What's the difference? >Chris >AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE >$$ > > IIRC 568A and 568B use different colour pairs - swap the green and the orange pair over I think. Quite why they do this I do not know but it's a b****y nuisance when some enterprising jester wires one end of a cable in A and the other in B (as just happened to me in Kiev where the contractor ran out of A sockets and used a single B socket, and his wireman just joined the dots...except where he also managed to swap orange for orange-white and vice-versa. Curiously, he claimed to have tested *all* the cables) I have no idea what USOC stands for. -- barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 3 Jul 2000 19:26:03 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <8jqlrr$it@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962651059 nnrp-09:3877 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59005 Ric Werme (werme@nospam.mediaone.net) wrote: : Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC means Baby : N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. However, I've heard : believable but prosaic claimes that it really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. The explanation I've always believed is that it stands for Bayonet Neill-Concelman (or some similar spelling), after the names of the designers. The 'N' connector is the Neill connector (of course), and the 'C' connector (a sort-of oversized BNC) was designed by Concelman This, of course, also explains the TNC connector (a screwlock version of the BNC) as the Threaded Neill Concelman. Most other explanations of the BNC name can't explain this one ;-) -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 3 Jul 2000 19:28:51 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <8jqm13$j5@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <395FAD0E.E6B043D3@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962651061 nnrp-09:3877 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!feeder.qis.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58993 Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) (unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) wrote: : British Telecom uses a six-contact plug. Normally four are used, the Which, FWIW is mechanically totally different from the RJ11/RJ45/etc... : normal pair, recall and an indirect ring derived from the pair by a : capacitor. When a loop-disconnect phone is dialling it shorts the : indirect ring to ground to prevent all the other bells on parallel It shorts it to one side of the line, not to ground IIRC. The circuit is basically a capacitor (1.8uF) in the master socket between one side of the line and the ring wire, and then the bells in the phones between the ring wire and the other side of the line (so all bells in parallel). The anti-tinkle switch shorts out the bells by connecting the ring wire to the appropriate line wire. : phones from tinkling. -tony ###### From: eben@pc.tampabay.rr.com (Hactar) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8jqqc0$6ir$1@pc.tampabay.rr.com> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> x-no-archive: yes X-No-ahbou: yes X-GetARealNewsreader: , Neil Franklin wrote: >"Alan T. Bowler" writes: > >Telephone once used 2 pairs, 1 for each direction. This was a long >time ago. Later the 3rd and 4th wire were used for such things like >call hold, etc. Home telephone (at least in fl.us, in the places I've been) is 4 wires -- RYGK. R+G are line 1, K+Y are line 2. I forget the polarity, but a meter can tell you. -- -eben eben@gate.net http://home.tampabay.rr.com/hactar/ AQUARIUS: There's travel in your future when your tongue freezes to the back of a speeding bus. Fill the void in your pathetic life by playing Whack-a-Mole 17 hours a day. -- Weird Al, _Your Horoscope for Today_ ###### Message-ID: <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 16:46:36 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 962657196 13824 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59087 Ric Werme wrote: > > Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC means Baby > N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. However, I've heard > believable but prosaic claimes that it really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. The company you're thinking of is "Berkeley Nucleonics Corporation", most likely. (Even though the connector may well get its name from somewhere else.) According to www.berkeleynucleonics.com, they've only been in business since 1960 or so. I *thought* the BNC connector was older than that, but I could be wrong. Certainly lots of test equipment through the late 60's used the big screw-on UHF connectors. OTOH, I know for a fact that the LEMO company invented the LEMO connector :-). I first ran across it in nuclear physics instrumentation, of course, but a quick web search shows that they're in all sorts of ruggedized equipment these days. Funny, the never seemed very rugged to me! Tim. ###### From: Juergen Nickelsen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 04 Jul 2000 00:26:07 +0200 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 24 Sender: ni@goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de Message-ID: References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8jqlrr$it@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip184.berlin63.pub-ip.de.psi.net X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59124 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Ric Werme (werme@nospam.mediaone.net) wrote: > : Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC > : means Baby N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. > : However, I've heard believable but prosaic claimes that it > : really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. > > The explanation I've always believed is that it stands for Bayonet > Neill-Concelman (or some similar spelling), after the names of the > designers. The 'N' connector is the Neill connector (of course), and the > 'C' connector (a sort-of oversized BNC) was designed by Concelman I've heard it only as Bolt Nut Connector, which sounds quite reasonable to me. > This, of course, also explains the TNC connector (a screwlock version of > the BNC) as the Threaded Neill Concelman. Most other explanations of the > BNC name can't explain this one ;-) Threaded Nut Connector? Just a guess. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962664129.652959@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:42:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962664147 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 04 Jul 2000 10:42:27 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 10:42:27 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59105 jchausler wrote: >To add something new to this thread, I note in my Black Box catalog >that they have three different schemes for cat 5 cables, what they >call 568A, 568B, and USOC. Now USOC (what does it stand >for?) is not wired for "standard" 10/100BaseT" but it appears that >568A and 568B are the same wiring. What's the difference? 568B is the old AT&T standard. The main difference (or at least the one that will actuall cause grief if you don't know what you're doing) is in the numbering and therefore colour coding of the pairs; the A standard are 4&5, 3&6, 1&2, 7&8, whereas for the B standard, the pairs go 4&5, 1&2, 3&6, 7&8. Therefore, if you wire your cable plant with outlets colour or pair coded for the A standard and B coded patch panels, you'll end up with a bunch of re-work to do. I'm not sure who uses the USOC scheme; I've never seen it in the wild, 568B is taking a while to die, I used to always have to make sure the standard to use was stated when preparing specs for cabling jobs. -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 13 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:14:22 EDT Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:14:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59122 In article <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa wrote: >According to www.berkeleynucleonics.com, they've only been in >business since 1960 or so. I *thought* the BNC connector >was older than that, but I could be wrong. It dates from WWII, apparently. See my other post. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net> <962664129.652959@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 962674091 7125 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 01:28:11 GMT Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59063 Don Stokes writes: > 568B is taking a while to die, I used to always have to make sure the > standard to use was stated when preparing specs for cabling jobs. All of my jobs are spec'd as 568B. In other sites I've visited, 568B is more popular. Perhaps it's a regional thing? 568B has the advantage of letting you punch down T1's using the "normal" pair color codes - punching onto the blue and orange pairs on a 568B panel will get you the right pins for T1. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: korpela@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 4 Jul 2000 02:32:39 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8jric7$274$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu X-Trace: agate.berkeley.edu 962677959 2276 128.32.18.173 (4 Jul 2000 02:32:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@berkeley.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 02:32:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!agate.berkeley.edu!agate!ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59086 In article <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Now that would be a nice name for the yellow cable (I _once_ >tried to lay one). I don't think I've ever been that drunk. :) Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### From: couperusNOSPAM@mindspring.com (Jitze Couperus) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:36:35 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 23 Message-ID: <39614bbd.78219396@news.mindspring.com> References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.c2.ce X-Server-Date: 4 Jul 2000 02:35:37 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59098 On Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:03:02 GMT, kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: > >It's beyond me what they have to do with bayonets, which, as far as I >know, are six-inch knives used to kill people and commonly attached to >the ends of guns. > As was remarked in another post, bayonets were fixed to the end of guns by a similar twist-and-lock gizmo with two bits sticking out and spring-loaded to prevent untwisting except by first pressing in. But your unfamiliarity with the use of this term raises the question for me - are there no lightbulbs at all in use in the USA with such a fitting? I know that both the common domestic lightbulb (110v) and flashlight bulbs in the US are screw-in - but on the other side of the pond (UK) such bulbs have "bayonet" type fittings IIRC. Thus the term is familiar to most. ###### From: korpela@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 4 Jul 2000 02:37:01 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8jrikd$27j$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu X-Trace: agate.berkeley.edu 962678221 2291 128.32.18.173 (4 Jul 2000 02:37:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@berkeley.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 02:37:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!agate.berkeley.edu!agate!ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59092 In article , Ric Werme wrote: >Lessee, I guess this is the appropriate point to assert that BNC means Baby >N Connector, right? That's what my father claimed. However, I've heard >believable but prosaic claimes that it really means the Bxxx Nuclear Company. There is, in fact, a Berkeley Nucleonics Corporation that goes by the name BNC. They didn't name the connector, however. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 4 Jul 2000 03:07:26 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 14 Message-ID: <0C9F17AD734697D4.98037E330DA1FEB5.36CB5A6114A12EC7@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <39614bbd.78219396@news.mindspring.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Jul 3 22:07:26 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Y+WE1k-WWBh[7D (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59067 On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:36:35 GMT, Jitze Couperus wrote: >But your unfamiliarity with the use of this term raises >the question for me - are there no lightbulbs at all >in use in the USA with such a fitting? I know that both >the common domestic lightbulb (110v) and flashlight >bulbs in the US are screw-in - but on the other side of >the pond (UK) such bulbs have "bayonet" type >fittings IIRC. Thus the term is familiar to most. Automobile light bulbs - aside from sealed-beam headlamps - use bayonet fittings, but people don't refer to them that way. I first heard the term as applied to 35mm SLR camera lens mounts. It's not a common term in the general population at all. ###### Sender: azz@cartman.azz.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Adam Sampson Message-ID: <87puouuk1d.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Date: 04 Jul 2000 14:01:02 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.29.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 962740809 212.159.29.16 (Tue, 04 Jul 2000 21:00:09 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 21:00:09 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!btnet-peer0!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!cartman.azz.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59154 kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) writes: > It's beyond me what they have to do with bayonets, which, as far as I > know, are six-inch knives used to kill people and commonly attached to > the ends of guns. "Bayonet" is the common description (at least in the UK) for the locking mechanism used by BNC connectors and lightbulbs. I'd always assumed that bayonets fitted onto gun barrels in the same way, although I'm probably completely wrong. -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <39614bbd.78219396@news.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <962739189.129674@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-87.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 15:31:12 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962739014 204.92.64.17 (Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:30:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:30:14 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59148 "Jitze Couperus" wrote in message news:39614bbd.78219396@news.mindspring.com... > On Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:03:02 GMT, kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) > wrote: > > > > >It's beyond me what they have to do with bayonets, which, as far as I > >know, are six-inch knives used to kill people and commonly attached to > >the ends of guns. > > > > As was remarked in another post, bayonets were fixed > to the end of guns by a similar twist-and-lock gizmo > with two bits sticking out and spring-loaded to prevent > untwisting except by first pressing in. > > But your unfamiliarity with the use of this term raises > the question for me - are there no lightbulbs at all > in use in the USA with such a fitting? I know that both > the common domestic lightbulb (110v) and flashlight > bulbs in the US are screw-in - but on the other side of > the pond (UK) such bulbs have "bayonet" type > fittings IIRC. Thus the term is familiar to most. > Some flashlight bulbs are bayonet-type (and now I learn what the term is for them); certain types of cameras take "bayonet mounted" lenses; I've also encountered non-nomeclatured items (tent poles eg:). Meanwhile the military has changed to a different method of locking. Recently several members of my family switched residences trans-Atlanticly for a few weeks. "I went to change/remove the lightbulb . . . " was stories common to both. I have to admit that when I first read "Bayonet Neills Conceillman" alongside "British Naval Connector", I thought it was a joke. After seeing it again from another independent source, I thought "this Neills Conceillman guy must've really ticked some people off . . ." Rick ###### Message-ID: <39620BEB.60EAA61D@trailing-edge.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:08:11 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <87puouuk1d.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 962741292 18805 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59151 Adam Sampson wrote: > > kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) writes: > > > It's beyond me what they have to do with bayonets, which, as far as I > > know, are six-inch knives used to kill people and commonly attached to > > the ends of guns. > > "Bayonet" is the common description (at least in the UK) for the > locking mechanism used by BNC connectors and lightbulbs. I'd always > assumed that bayonets fitted onto gun barrels in the same way, > although I'm probably completely wrong. Yep, you're right, light bulbs and coaxial connectors fit onto gun barrels in exactly the same way. (Oh, think of the interchangability if all three applications used the same connectors!) Tim. ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 22:15:49 +0100 Message-ID: <39625405.ADC36D45@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <39614bbd.78219396@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962745671 nnrp-06:12155 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59157 Jitze Couperus wrote: > the pond (UK) such bulbs have "bayonet" type > fittings IIRC. Thus the term is familiar to most. This is at least in part to allow the brassware of the cap and the receptacle to be separately isolated and grounded - remember we *only* use 3-pin plugs here. Grabbing hold of a cap with 240 volts on it can be non-habit-forming in that you don't survive to try a second time. Our bayonet lamps have two contacts on the base for the power pair. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <396f6b3a.3656831@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8jric7$274$1@agate.berkeley.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:06:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.48.197.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 962816768 213.48.197.59 (Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:06:08 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:06:08 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59158 On 4 Jul 2000 02:32:39 GMT, korpela@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) sprachen: >I don't think I've ever been that drunk. :) I was wondering what you were on about, cos "lay a cable" has a completely different juvenile meaning round here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### Message-ID: <396370F4.6BBE320D@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8jric7$274$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <396f6b3a.3656831@news.cableinet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 962818233 128.135.145.16 (Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:30:33 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:30:33 CDT Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:31:32 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59137 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: > > >I don't think I've ever been that drunk. :) > > I was wondering what you were on about, cos "lay a cable" has a > completely different juvenile meaning round here. I think he was implying he'd have to be extremely drunk to perform that very same juvenile behaviour. Simon ###### From: "Peter Smith" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <87n1k0r494.fld@barrow.com> <8jntdn$gl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:41:44 -0700 Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip160.gte3.rb1.bel.nwlink.com Message-ID: <396372e7$1_1@news.nwlink.com> X-Trace: 5 Jul 2000 10:39:51 -0700, ip160.gte3.rb1.bel.nwlink.com Organization: Northwest Link Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!news.nwlink.com!ip160.gte3.rb1.bel.nwlink.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59141 I love the Gutenberg press! From Casson -- The History of the Telephone. Gutenberg #819 and a quick search in a text editor, I find the following quote: "So enormous has been the use of copper wire since then by the telephone companies, that fully one-fourth of all the capital invested in the telephone as gone to the owners of the copper mines." Early wire, btw, was iron. Lots of configurations were tried, mostly with indifferent success. Early phone companies seem to resigned themselves to replacing all their original wiring within five years or so. Peter "Tony Duell" wrote in message news:8jntdn$gl@p850ug1.demon.co.uk... > Floyd Davidson (floyd@ptialaska.net) wrote: > : >Telephone once used 2 pairs, 1 for each direction. This was a long > : >time ago. Later the 3rd and 4th wire were used for such things like > : >call hold, etc. > > : I don't think so... A local loop was two wires even long before > : automatic switching was in use. Sometimes the connection to the > : telephone set itself included a third wire for ground to allow > : party line ringing. > > I've seen it said that the most expensive part of the public telephone > system is the cable. And thus the whole system was designed so that a > subscriber loop (the connection from the exchange to a telephone) was > just 2 wires. 2 wires that carry voice, ringing signals, dialing pulses, etc. > > Of course for private exchanges connected to phones in the same building, > it may have made sense to use more than 2 wires to the phones and thus > simplify the circuitry somewhat. I doubt it was common, though, since it > would have made sense to be able to use standard phones. > > -tony > ###### From: "Michael A. Gray" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 15:35:09 -0400 Organization: Lucent Technologies Lines: 16 Message-ID: <39638DEC.E4386DCB@lucent.com> References: <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 135.22.43.79 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-CCK-MCD EMS-1.4 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news-fra.pop.de!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59175 "USOC" stands for "Uniform Service Order Code", an old Bell System abbreviation from pre-divestiture days (~1984) which survived for a while after divestiture. AT&T had a set of BSPs (Bell System Practices) that covered the "right way" to do anything in the system. Hundreds of large volumes. Mike Gray > In article <3960A26B.7BE59601@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: > > I have no idea what USOC stands for. > > -- > barnacle > > http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### Message-ID: <3964E008.B4B1CA3@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:40:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.120.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 962912407 63.15.120.137 (Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:40:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:40:07 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59213 Kragen Sitaker wrote: > In article <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com>, > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >According to www.berkeleynucleonics.com, they've only been in > >business since 1960 or so. I *thought* the BNC connector > >was older than that, but I could be wrong. > > It dates from WWII, apparently. See my other post. The inter-module signalling for Whirlwind (late 40's) was all coax using BNC connectors (it must have been a rat's nest). I've always wondered why all the photo's I've seen show the backs of the modules rather than the fronts (where the cables were connected :-) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com> <3964E008.B4B1CA3@earthlink.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 17 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:48:06 EDT Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:48:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59364 In article <3964E008.B4B1CA3@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: >The inter-module signalling for Whirlwind (late 40's) was all >coax using BNC connectors (it must have been a rat's nest). >I've always wondered why all the photo's I've seen show the >backs of the modules rather than the fronts (where the cables >were connected :-) You worked on Whirlwind? I suppose that makes you quite senior to almost everybody else here :) What was the project like? -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Message-ID: <396607C5.5F628EA6@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com> <3964E008.B4B1CA3@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:42:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.50.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 962988124 63.15.50.53 (Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:42:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:42:04 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!cyclone.rdc-detw.rr.com!news.mw.mediaone.net!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59219 Kragen Sitaker wrote: > In article <3964E008.B4B1CA3@earthlink.net>, > jchausler wrote: > >The inter-module signalling for Whirlwind (late 40's) was all > >coax using BNC connectors (it must have been a rat's nest). > >I've always wondered why all the photo's I've seen show the > >backs of the modules rather than the fronts (where the cables > >were connected :-) > > You worked on Whirlwind? I suppose that makes you quite senior to > almost everybody else here :) > > What was the project like? Sorry :-), not quite that old........ The only detailed information I have on the project is from the Redmond & Smith book published in 1980 by Digital Press. An interesting book although more on the project as a whole than on any technical detail. This is where most of the photos I've seen are from too. I do, however, have a Whirlwind module in my collection (Register Driver Type I, Serial No. 3) and its studded with BNC's for the various signals. I think its basically a collection of pulse amplifiers. For a number of years I have tried to get further information on the machine from the Computer Museum with little response. Anyway, Whirlwind is my "favorite" early computer. An article about a Bill Wolf who restored the machine to operation cause he "loved it" in a late 1964 issue of "LIFE" magazine is what turned me on to and started me studying about computers back when I was in high school. (I still have that issue as well :-) The pictures in the R&S book show numerous modules (from the back or circuit side) of this type scattered about the machine, many in the ALU. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <3965D157.E44B6A7@trailing-edge.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:47:19 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com> <3964E008.B4B1CA3@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 962988440 8673 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59271 jchausler wrote: > > Kragen Sitaker wrote: > > > In article <3960C36B.2A523A57@trailing-edge.com>, > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >According to www.berkeleynucleonics.com, they've only been in > > >business since 1960 or so. I *thought* the BNC connector > > >was older than that, but I could be wrong. > > > > It dates from WWII, apparently. See my other post. > > The inter-module signalling for Whirlwind (late 40's) was all > coax using BNC connectors (it must have been a rat's nest). > I've always wondered why all the photo's I've seen show the > backs of the modules rather than the fronts (where the cables > were connected :-) Probably because the mat of cables (RG-58? RG-59? there are other possiblities too) could easily be a foot thick! I've been involved with several high-energy physics experiements where the front of the NIM and CAMAC bins was that thick in cable. The Whirlwind modules probably aren't as high in density as late-70's or 80's ECL, though there may be other factors. Tim. ###### From: Joshua Hesse <00093182@bigred.unl.edu> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 7 Jul 2000 23:17:03 GMT Organization: People Eating Tasty Animals, UNL chapter Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8k5odf$7vd$1@unlnews.unl.edu> References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8jqqc0$6ir$1@pc.tampabay.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bigred.unl.edu X-HTML:
X-URL: http://straylight.unl.edu/concussion/ User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!amsnews01.chello.com!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59239 Hactar wrote: :Home telephone (at least in fl.us, in the places I've been) is 4 wires -- :RYGK. R+G are line 1, K+Y are line 2. I forget the polarity, but a meter :can tell you. Green is positive. Red is... er... not quite ground. -- "I have also mastered pomposity, even if I do say so myself." -Kryten ###### Message-ID: <3966CE4B.8AF8BF89@cmc.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:46:35 -0700 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <395D0652.E02377A@thinkage.ca> <6uituod5a3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8jqqc0$6ir$1@pc.tampabay.rr.com> <8k5odf$7vd$1@unlnews.unl.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.90.88 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 963038760 194 207.154.90.88 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59360 Joshua Hesse wrote: > Green is positive. Red is... er... not quite ground. The positive side is grounded. This reduces the electrolytic corrosion when cables buried in the ground get wet ... -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277 ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <3971fd2e.35873499@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <962451640.857974@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <6ug0psd4u3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8jric7$274$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <396f6b3a.3656831@news.cableinet.co.uk> <396370F4.6BBE320D@uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:30:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.48.197.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 963181820 213.48.197.76 (Sun, 09 Jul 2000 23:30:20 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 23:30:20 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59574 No, this is a *different* juvenile meaning. Think of ships crossing the Atlantic, or something. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### From: lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 11 Jul 2000 13:27:57 GMT Organization: Northern Telecom Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars05r.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!qcarh002.nortelnetworks.com!bcarh189.ca.nortel.com!bmerhc5e.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!wcars05r.ca.nortel.com!lingman Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59576 kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: > Perhaps the ideal solution is to provide male connectors with > permanently removable pins and female connectors with permanently > fillable holes. Then the designer need only pick several pins at > random to remove for each distinct kind of connection. If you remove > four pins out of 25, you get 12650 possible configurations, none of > which will successfully plug into any of the others. (Evil users can > remove pins and make "skeleton connectors", of course. And if you use > DB-25, they may find skeleton connectors off-the-shelf.) Worse - in my experience, when faced with connectors that look like they can go together, users will make them do so. DB-25 pins are not very strong, and users are often rather determined. Dan. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 24 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:25:03 EDT Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:25:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!east3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59687 In article <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, Danny Lingman wrote: >kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: >> Perhaps the ideal solution is to provide male connectors with >> permanently removable pins and female connectors with permanently >> fillable holes. Then the designer need only pick several pins at >> random to remove for each distinct kind of connection. If you remove >> four pins out of 25, you get 12650 possible configurations, none of >> which will successfully plug into any of the others. (Evil users can >> remove pins and make "skeleton connectors", of course. And if you use >> DB-25, they may find skeleton connectors off-the-shelf.) > >Worse - in my experience, when faced with connectors that look like >they can go together, users will make them do so. DB-25 pins are not >very strong, and users are often rather determined. I agree --- DB-25 pins are too small. Making the connectors out of steel with ceramic inlays, with the pins made of 10-gauge copper wire bonded to the ceramic inlays, would probably suffice. -- Kragen Sitaker Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we ourselves possess. -- Gandalf the Grey [J.R.R. Tolkien, "Lord of the Rings"] ###### From: Louis RAPHAEL Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-No-Archive: Yes References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Organization: Societe pour la promotion du petoncle vert User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.6 (sun4m)) Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:56:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.206.51.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 963399392 132.206.51.205 (Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:56:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:56:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59669 Danny Lingman wrote: : Worse - in my experience, when faced with connectors that look like : they can go together, users will make them do so. DB-25 pins are not : very strong, and users are often rather determined. I heard of a user who "made" a DB-25 go together upside down... then placed a service call that the printer didn't work! --L -- #include ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <963403489.78796@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 37 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:05:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 963403507 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:05:07 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:05:07 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59670 In article , Louis RAPHAEL wrote: >Danny Lingman wrote: > >: Worse - in my experience, when faced with connectors that look like >: they can go together, users will make them do so. DB-25 pins are not >: very strong, and users are often rather determined. > >I heard of a user who "made" a DB-25 go together upside down... then >placed a service call that the printer didn't work! --L I had one of those! I didn't think it was possible either. Suffice to say, the printer worked fine with the plug in it the right way up. To be fair, I have subsequently found amongst my junk a pair of male and female DB25s that will in fact mate solidly with one plug upside down. The male plug has only 3 pins (TXD, RXD, GND), and therefore can be persuaded into the holes. The shell of the male pin is just sufficiently oversized in both width and height that the female plug can be jammed into it, albeit hard against the long edge of the shell. It helps that the shell is thin and just a little flexible. I believe the male plug in question is similar to the one jammed upside down into the printer, but it's been a while. And again, to be fair, the printer (a small HP laserprinter) did have its serial connectir buried in a recess under the back of the printer where it was very hard to see what one was doing. But even so, "DB25 installed upside down" certainly hadn't been on my list of things to check for before this incident. Mind you, "check that there is mains power available" got added after someone reported a communications line fault. "The guy from the phone company called back, there's no power." "What to the modem?" "Nah, to the building." -- don ###### Message-ID: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:07:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.101.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 963421628 63.15.101.136 (Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:07:08 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:07:08 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59637 Kragen Sitaker wrote: > I agree --- DB-25 pins are too small. Making the connectors out of > steel with ceramic inlays, with the pins made of 10-gauge copper wire > bonded to the ceramic inlays, would probably suffice. TOO SMALL!! How about those SCSI-2 and SCSI-3 D connectors? A piece of fluff on one connector will cause a pin to bend and you won't even feel it. I've been moving around DB-25 connectors since the mid 60's and have yet to even remotely bend a pin............ One thing IBM got right IMHO with the PC was the gender of the connectors. I've dealt with too many vendors who use male connectors on DCE's and female connectors on DTE's both 9 and 25 pin flavors. It's nice to look at a connector and know what type of interface it is !! (assuming RS-232 of course :-) What's more, if I see a female DB-25 on a computer these days I can almost always assume its a printer port, not a serial port. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Mike Tomlinson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:02:32 +0100 Organization: The Pub Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8jpsms$bgd$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-170.tin.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 963473116 15092 62.136.41.170 (13 Jul 2000 07:25:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 07:25:16 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!jasper.org.uk!mike Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59702 In article <8jpsms$bgd$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Ben Harris writes >I'll try: Co-axial cable has some amount of capacitance per unit length >(call it 'C'), and some velocity of propogation of signals down the cable >(call it 'v'). If you start with a discharged cable, and apply a voltage >('V') across the core and screen at one end, you start a rising edge >running along the cable. Thus, in time 't', an extra length 'v * t' of >cable gets charged to voltage 'V'. That length of cable has capacitance 'C >* v * t', and thus requires a charge of 'C * v * t * V' to charge it up. >Thus we're putting charge into the cable at a rate of 'C * v * V'. This is >the current into the cable necessary to maintain our end at a voltage of >'V'. Since this varies linearly with 'V', it's equivalent to a pure >resistance 'C * v'. This is the characteristic impedence of the cable, >which is what's meant in terms like '50ohm cable'. That was a beautifully clear explanation which knocks any text-book description I've ever read into a cocked hat. Thank you. -- Mike Tomlinson mike@jasper.org.uk ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 34 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:54:00 EDT Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:54:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!east3.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59731 In article <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: >Kragen Sitaker wrote: >> I agree --- DB-25 pins are too small. Making the connectors out of >> steel with ceramic inlays, with the pins made of 10-gauge copper wire >> bonded to the ceramic inlays, would probably suffice. > >TOO SMALL!! How about those SCSI-2 and SCSI-3 D connectors? >A piece of fluff on one connector will cause a pin to bend and you won't >even feel it. I've been moving around DB-25 connectors since the mid >60's and have yet to even remotely bend a pin............ The context of the discussion was preventing users from forcing together connectors that didn't belong together. I agree that those dense connectors are much worse. >(assuming RS-232 of course :-) Yes, that is nice. >What's more, if I see a female DB-25 >on a computer these days I can almost always assume its a printer port, >not a serial port. What's up with using a DB-25 connector for connections to Centronics parallel ports, anyway? Centronics connectors are *so* much nicer. *Nobody* ever bent a pin on a Centronics connector without using heavy-duty tools, let alone by accident. And they release in a reasonable fashion. -- Kragen Sitaker Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we ourselves possess. -- Gandalf the Grey [J.R.R. Tolkien, "Lord of the Rings"] ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Message-ID: <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:15:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.217.159 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 963483439 130.244.217.159 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:17:19 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:17:19 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59722 In article <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net>, Jay Maynard wrote: > This was a limitation of the IBM PC: there wasn't enough room on the card > bracket to put both a 36-pin ribbon connector and the DB-9 for the > monochrome monitor. They could have used the E sized DE-9 instead of the B sized DB-9 and gained some space. Btw, I have never seen a DB-9, what else have they been used for? :-) -- Göran Larsson Senior Systems Analyst hoh AT approve DOT se begin LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.vbs I'm a signature virus. Please copy me to help me spread! end ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 13 Jul 2000 15:53:56 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59707 jchausler wrote: : Kragen Sitaker wrote: : > I agree --- DB-25 pins are too small. Making the connectors out of : > steel with ceramic inlays, with the pins made of 10-gauge copper wire : > bonded to the ceramic inlays, would probably suffice. : TOO SMALL!! How about those SCSI-2 and SCSI-3 D connectors? : A piece of fluff on one connector will cause a pin to bend and you won't : even feel it. I've been moving around DB-25 connectors since the mid : 60's and have yet to even remotely bend a pin............ : One thing IBM got right IMHO with the PC was the gender of the : connectors. I've dealt with too many vendors who use male connectors : on DCE's and female connectors on DTE's both 9 and 25 pin flavors. : It's nice to look at a connector and know what type of interface it is !! : (assuming RS-232 of course :-) What's more, if I see a female DB-25 : on a computer these days I can almost always assume its a printer port, : not a serial port. And the Mac II's? That DB-25 connector on the back is for another terminal, right? Modem? Actually, I think the DB-9 connector as a more compact version of the DB-25 RS-232 interface was the best aspect of IBM and the PC. Apple using the DB-25 as an external SCSI connector was a liitle arrogant IMO. Eric ###### From: bmeyer@cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 19 Sender: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Message-ID: <8kkr9v$cbe$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <962583744.188184@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8jpsms$bgd$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> Reply-To: bmeyer@cs.monash.edu.au Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:30:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.194.64.238 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:30:01 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news0.optus.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59732 Mike Tomlinson writes: >That was a beautifully clear explanation which knocks any text-book >description I've ever read into a cocked hat. Thank you. I second that motion. The scary part is that I actually passed that exam in my EE degree 5 years ago, and yet when reading this explanation, it was the first time that I *understood* it. Almost makes me want to go back to EE and see whether all that other stuff in that subject makes more sense now --- I positively hate "knowledge" that just consists of knowing what formula to plug which numbers into. Bernie -- Giving money and power to government is like giving whisky and car keys to teenage boys P.J. O'Rourke American journalist, 1947-- ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 13 Jul 00 10:37:03 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-869.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59753 In article <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) writes: >In article ><525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net>, >Jay Maynard wrote: > >> This was a limitation of the IBM PC: there wasn't enough room on the >> card bracket to put both a 36-pin ribbon connector and the DB-9 for >> the monochrome monitor. > >They could have used the E sized DE-9 instead of the B sized DB-9 >and gained some space. Btw, I have never seen a DB-9, what else >have they been used for? :-) I was about to succumb once again to the urge to jump into this discussion about D-submini shell sizes, but you've taken care of it beautifully. BTW I've used what arguably could be called a DB-9. Back when it was common to get empty shells and insert only the pins you needed, I'd often come across DB-25s that only had pins 1 through 8 and 20. DE-15: VGA connector DA-15: AUI connector -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Tony Wingo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:54:06 -0700 Organization: not much Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: br150.bearriver.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 963514416 62621 207.33.124.150 (13 Jul 2000 18:53:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 18:53:36 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!wingo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59776 In article <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: > >Actually, I think the DB-9 connector as a more compact version of the >DB-25 RS-232 interface was the best aspect of IBM and the PC. Apple using >the DB-25 as an external SCSI connector was a liitle arrogant IMO. We'll it was expeditious and it saved space. Unfortunately, it also resulted in numerous disasters, because plugging an RS-232 device into it (and there was ALWAYS someone who would) smoked the motherboard. -t ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <963518498.123760@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-7.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:58:14 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 963518265 204.92.64.17 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:57:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:57:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59767 "Tony Wingo" wrote in message news:wingo-52B75E.11540613072000@nntp.best.com... > In article <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko > wrote: > > > > >Actually, I think the DB-9 connector as a more compact version of the > >DB-25 RS-232 interface was the best aspect of IBM and the PC. Apple using > >the DB-25 as an external SCSI connector was a liitle arrogant IMO. > > We'll it was expeditious and it saved space. Unfortunately, it also > resulted in numerous disasters, because plugging an RS-232 device into > it (and there was ALWAYS someone who would) smoked the motherboard. "I didn'doit, I wasn'there and you can't prove it !" Bart Simpson Rick "We are gathered here today, in memory of this MicroVAX 2k . . . " > > -t ###### Sender: marc@hana.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> From: Marco S Hyman Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. -- http://www.snafu.org/ Lines: 10 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Date: 13 Jul 2000 13:09:27 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.54.48.250 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: nuq-read.news.verio.net 963518968 206.54.48.250 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:09:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:09:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nuq-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59770 Eric Chomko writes: > Actually, I think the DB-9 connector as a more compact version of the > DB-25 RS-232 interface was the best aspect of IBM and the PC. Apple using Nope. A DB-9 has the exact same form factor as a DB-25, albeit with only 9 pins instead of 25. Perhaps you mean a DE-9? DB/DE describes the shell size. // marc ###### From: AES Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:16:12 -0700 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunet-s5as01-1-dynamic-8.stanford.edu Mail-Copies-To: poster User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.stanford.edu!siegman Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59785 Every time I have to reconnect a bunch of phone and computer stuff using RJ-11 and RJ-45 connectors I end up cursing because when you try to pull the cables out from behind desks or underneath furniture, the little springy tabs on the connectors hang up on table legs, rug edges, other cables, and everything else. Yanking just breaks off the tab, rendering the cable useless. I have the impression these connectors were designed back in the good old Ma Bell era, when everything associated with phone equipment was designed to function flawlessly and forever. How did such an obviously bad design get loosed on the world? ###### Message-ID: <396E34B0.329F578A@trailing-edge.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:29:20 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 963538161 17966 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59771 AES wrote: > > Every time I have to reconnect a bunch of phone and computer stuff using > RJ-11 and RJ-45 connectors I end up cursing because when you try to pull > the cables out from behind desks or underneath furniture, the little > springy tabs on the connectors hang up on table legs, rug edges, other > cables, and everything else. Yanking just breaks off the tab, rendering > the cable useless. > > I have the impression these connectors were designed back in the good > old Ma Bell era, when everything associated with phone equipment was > designed to function flawlessly and forever. How did such an obviously > bad design get loosed on the world? They certainly aren't as heavy-duty as the previous generation of connectors - you know, those square blocks with four pins in a pattern like this: --------- | X | | X | | | | | | X X | --------- Yeah, that's pretty poor ASCII art, but IIRC it wasn't exactly a square pattern so that there'd be polarization. What's the "official" name for this connector? I'm willing to bet it's something like "octothorpe", my other favorite Bell System word :-). Tim. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 01:55:38 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8klruq$raf$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 963539738 27983 134.117.136.30 (14 Jul 2000 01:55:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2000 01:55:38 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59778 AES (siegman@stanford.edu) writes: > ... > I have the impression these connectors were designed back in the good > old Ma Bell era, when everything associated with phone equipment was > designed to function flawlessly and forever. How did such an obviously > bad design get loosed on the world? Ask Adam about women. ###### From: William Donzelli Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:33:38 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8km572$l35$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.254.191.118 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jul 14 04:33:38 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC, Nav) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.254.191.118 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaw288 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59750 In article <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > BTW I've used what arguably could be called a DB-9. Back when it > was common to get empty shells and insert only the pins you needed, > I'd often come across DB-25s that only had pins 1 through 8 and 20. The likely is a real DB-9, but the pins would be something odd. The D shell system was tied to the military back in the 1950s (or early 60s), and the number of variations available to the engineers was staggering. The original shells were around (DA..DE), but with them a whole bunch of pin styles (regular, high current, coaxial, etc.) and densities. Somewhere I have a catalog showing all of the MIL-STD D shell connectors available. One of these days it will surface. William Donzelli Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Extra Strength Flufferin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 00:49:03 -0400 Organization: Easier on your stomach than ground glass Lines: 33 Message-ID: <87aeflxqo0.fsf@litterbox.meowing.net> References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <396E34B0.329F578A@trailing-edge.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Mail-Copies-To: never X-Meow: Wouf X-Face: #!n`o'kqzEiF(\CL4IR$H.F-||!S*5wv~g8~prn}Z<+F/-^?oJ:#_V#QP?G}!!yayV0]i\' GTb6:]Tic*!vjH}wm>ILhZBn8U0XEjh'l~yrjB?4Iiph5N9:kwqd/}86UTr9i|LCu]Bd)~G1R9U(qJ KOyEQK8*? User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Capitol Reef) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59783 Tim Shoppa wrote: > They certainly aren't as heavy-duty as the previous generation > of connectors - you know, those square blocks with four pins in > a pattern like this: > --------- > | X | > | X | > | | > | | > | X X | > --------- More like: --------- | | | | X | X | | | | | | X X | | | --------- > What's the "official" name for this connector? 404B. > I'm willing to bet it's something like "octothorpe", my other > favorite Bell System word :-). I guess if you ignore the letter, it could be a palindrome. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 13:52:46 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8kn5ve$57i@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59763 AES wrote: : Every time I have to reconnect a bunch of phone and computer stuff using : RJ-11 and RJ-45 connectors I end up cursing because when you try to pull : the cables out from behind desks or underneath furniture, the little : springy tabs on the connectors hang up on table legs, rug edges, other : cables, and everything else. Yanking just breaks off the tab, rendering : the cable useless. : I have the impression these connectors were designed back in the good : old Ma Bell era, when everything associated with phone equipment was : designed to function flawlessly and forever. How did such an obviously : bad design get loosed on the world? The main reason was that the phone wires used to be hardwired into the handset, and the wall connector was this funky four pronged thing. The whole idea of "modular" (mid-70s, I believe) phone components came from this. Going from nothing to something (modular) was considered a great improvement, despite what you call a bad design. I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before modular, one used to have to use one of those nasty acoustic couplers, which really was overkill and unnecessary, IMO. Eric ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 14:14:42 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8kn78i$one$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8kn5ve$57i@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 963584082 25326 134.117.136.30 (14 Jul 2000 14:14:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2000 14:14:42 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59775 Eric Chomko (chomko@IDT.NET) writes: > ... > I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) > that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the > modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before Holy bandwidth, Batman - with practice, he can be our radar detector when we blast out in the Batmobile! ###### From: linley@megami.org (Bruce Linley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 10:45:10 -0700 Organization: Megami no Belldandy-sama no deshi Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> References: <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8kn5ve$57i@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59749 In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... > >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? >modular, one used to have to use one of those nasty acoustic couplers, >which really was overkill and unnecessary, IMO. But they looked so cool! Unfortunately, acoustic couplers are all but useless as phone handsets no longer conform to the "standard" shape. -- Bruce James Robert Linley | +---+---+--_ | "Ocha tte nigai demo... hito no chi linley at megami dot org | | |NV | UT | wa atatakakute tottemo amai no" Programmer, Fortunet Inc. | \ CA \ |___ | "Tea is always bitter... but blood Las Vegas, Nevada, USA ---------> \*| AZ | is warm and sweet" - Miyu ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 19:30:56 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8knppg$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8kn78i$one$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59813 Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: : Eric Chomko (chomko@IDT.NET) writes: : > : ... : > I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) : > that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the : > modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before : Holy bandwidth, Batman - with practice, he can be our radar detector : when we blast out in the Batmobile! No, a real trick would he able to mimic that sound with your mouth. Somehow, that guy in the "Police Academy" movies would be a good candiate for such a thing. Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 14 Jul 2000 19:40:12 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59812 Bruce Linley wrote: : In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... : > : >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) : >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the : >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before : Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? It's 2 Hertz? The whistle sound from an answer modem, anyone know the frequency? Btw, I do have excellent hearing. :) : >modular, one used to have to use one of those nasty acoustic couplers, : >which really was overkill and unnecessary, IMO. : But they looked so cool! Unfortunately, acoustic couplers are all : but useless as phone handsets no longer conform to the "standard" : shape. You know, I think I picked up one of those acoustic couplers from Anderson Jacobson awhile back, on a lark. I still have it someplace. Eric ###### Message-ID: <3970A904.53AEFDD4@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:12:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.121.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 963684766 63.15.121.14 (Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:12:46 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:12:46 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59805 Eric Chomko wrote: > Bruce Linley wrote: > : In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... > : > > : >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) > : >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the > : >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before > > : Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? > > It's 2 Hertz? The whistle sound from an answer modem, anyone know the > frequency? > > Btw, I do have excellent hearing. :) It must be, 2Hz.....you mean 2KHz :-) Actually IIRC the frequencies were 1070/1270 Hz originate and 2025/2225 Hz answer. I used to repair acoustic couplers (Omnitec ??) and would frequently whistle about the answer frequencies to see that the acoustic coupler (usually only capable of originate) would respond. This was about 1970. > : >modular, one used to have to use one of those nasty acoustic couplers, > : >which really was overkill and unnecessary, IMO. > > : But they looked so cool! Unfortunately, acoustic couplers are all > : but useless as phone handsets no longer conform to the "standard" > : shape. That's why you keep handy a classic Bell desk phone, I have a couple of them. I used them in the late 70's with the pair of Novation CAT acoustic modems (one of which unfortunately has died and I have been unable to locate any documentation.....any ideas out there) which I purchased for my hobby computing activities. IIRC the Novation CAT was the first commercially manufactured modem marketed specifically to the home computer user. IIRC Eric, like me you were also into the 6800. I recall to save money calling the FLEXNET bbs which was in Oklahoma (I'm in NY) at 2 in the morning to save money, and transferring files at 30 cps, praying the line wouldn't drop. Those were the days............. > You know, I think I picked up one of those acoustic couplers from Anderson > Jacobson awhile back, on a lark. I still have it someplace. Also in the late 70's I acquired a cast off AJ acoustic modem nicely mounted in a wooden box. It would do both originate and answer modes, supported normal and inverted frequency sense and both RS232 and current loop (20 MA) terminals. All that was wrong with it was that the microphone had been physically damaged. I was able to get a replacement unit at a local radio parts store. The only problem with the modem was a fair amount of 60 Hz hum but the filters seemed to take care of that. I came across it sometime in the last year, powered it up, whistled at it and it responded :-) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.167 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 27 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: Phillips Enterprises X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:38:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!sea-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59861 Howdy! Eric Chomko wrote in message news:8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net... > Bruce Linley wrote: > : In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... > : > > : >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) > : >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the > : >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before > > : Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? > > It's 2 Hertz? The whistle sound from an answer modem, anyone know the > frequency? Hmmm ... IIRC, it was more like 1100 Hz, or 1.1KHz, or .0011MHz. In any case, it was between 300Hz and 3,300 Hz (due to the limits of the phone company). RwP ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 17 Jul 2000 12:46:36 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8kuv7c$odv$1@top.mitre.org> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net <3970A904.53AEFDD4@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 963837996 25023 128.29.251.13 (17 Jul 2000 12:46:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 2000 12:46:36 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59860 jchausler writes: >It must be, 2Hz.....you mean 2KHz :-) Actually IIRC the frequencies were >1070/1270 Hz originate and 2025/2225 Hz answer. I used to repair >acoustic couplers (Omnitec ??) and would frequently whistle about the >answer frequencies to see that the acoustic coupler (usually only capable >of originate) would respond. This was about 1970. *chuckle*. I too used the trick of whistling into a telephone to trigger the modem on the other end, and usually got rather uncertain looks from anyone who saw me doing it... >> You know, I think I picked up one of those acoustic couplers from Anderson >> Jacobson awhile back, on a lark. I still have it someplace. >Also in the late 70's I acquired a cast off AJ acoustic modem nicely mounted >in a wooden box. It would do both originate and answer modes, supported >normal and inverted frequency sense and both RS232 and current loop (20 MA) >terminals. Yup; I remember using the A-J modems; some of the boxes looked like they came from a cabinetmaker's shop, not a modern (for 1970) manufacturer. Them wuz the days when you worried about keeping the line up if you were using long distance: operators on the AT&T Long Lines desk would notice that the connection had been up for longer than was usual, so they would open the line to their headsets, hear the two modems talking to each other, conclude that something was broken, and break the connection. Bummer. "Operator, this is a data call. Do you know what a data call is?" was a common question while trying to place the long-distance data calls. Joe Morris ###### From: Tony Wingo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:49:21 -0700 Organization: not much Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <3970A904.53AEFDD4@earthlink.net> <8kuv7c$odv$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: br150.bearriver.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 963848930 21408 207.33.124.150 (17 Jul 2000 15:48:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 2000 15:48:50 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!wingo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59895 In article <8kuv7c$odv$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: > >Yup; I remember using the A-J modems; some of the boxes looked like they >came from a cabinetmaker's shop, not a modern (for 1970) manufacturer. > >Them wuz the days when you worried about keeping the line up if you were >using long distance: operators on the AT&T Long Lines desk would notice >that the connection had been up for longer than was usual, so they would >open the line to their headsets, hear the two modems talking to each >other, conclude that something was broken, and break the connection. >Bummer. > This was especially a problem if you were logged in to a system that didn't automatically log you off in the event of disconnection. The connect time clock would merrily keep running (ka-ching!) while you kept dialing in, hoping to get the same modem in the pool so you could log your session off. -t ###### Message-ID: <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.16 X-Trace: uchinews 963869162 128.135.145.16 (Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:26:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:26:02 CDT Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:27:48 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59947 Ralph Wade Phillips wrote: > >Hmmm ... IIRC, it was more like 1100 Hz, or 1.1KHz, or .0011MHz. > >In any case, it was between 300Hz and 3,300 Hz (due to the limits of > the phone company). Wasn't it 2600Hz? Hence the alt.2600 group? -- Simon Allaway | "It is the year 2000, and there University of Chicago | are no flying cars... where are Haskell Hall - M136 | all the flying cars? " - IBM ###### From: als@thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 17 Jul 2000 23:22:59 GMT Organization: Home of the BOFH Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> Reply-To: als@usenet.thangorodrim.de NNTP-Posting-Host: bofh.csn.tu-chemnitz.de X-Trace: narses.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de 963876179 5542 134.109.108.7 (17 Jul 2000 23:22:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.tu-chemnitz.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 2000 23:22:59 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!als Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59984 On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:27:48 -0500, Simon Allaway wrote about Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair?: > > >Ralph Wade Phillips wrote: >> >>Hmmm ... IIRC, it was more like 1100 Hz, or 1.1KHz, or .0011MHz. >> >>In any case, it was between 300Hz and 3,300 Hz (due to the limits of >> the phone company). > >Wasn't it 2600Hz? Hence the alt.2600 group? No, the 2600 Hz frequency was used in the early phone switching system as an inband control signal (usually a _bad_ idea). Regards, Alex. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ EMail : als@thangorodrim.de | WWW : http://www.thangorodrim.de/ If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have | Ceterum censeo Parva Mollia privacy. (Philip Zimmerman, author of PGP) | esse delendam. ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 18 Jul 2000 14:20:31 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> References: <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 963930031 28251 207.229.143.40 (18 Jul 2000 14:20:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 2000 14:20:31 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.5-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59969 Alexander Schreiber wrote: : On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:27:48 -0500, Simon Allaway wrote about Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair?: :> :> :>Ralph Wade Phillips wrote: :>> :>>Hmmm ... IIRC, it was more like 1100 Hz, or 1.1KHz, or .0011MHz. :>> :>>In any case, it was between 300Hz and 3,300 Hz (due to the limits of :>> the phone company). :> :>Wasn't it 2600Hz? Hence the alt.2600 group? : No, the 2600 Hz frequency was used in the early phone switching system as : an inband control signal (usually a _bad_ idea). In band signalling still exists on a fair number of trunks. It's still a bad idea, but phone companies are loath to toss anything. -- dscheidt@enteract.com But I simply can't find it anywhere in me to imagine that someone might want to stick sharp pasta spikes down into his penis. -D.M. Procida ###### From: Floyd Davidson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 18 Jul 2000 12:22:32 -0800 Organization: __________ Lines: 48 Sender: floyd@barrow.com Message-ID: <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> References: <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-045.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: gnus 5.8.3/XEmacs 21.1.9/Linux Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60021 David Scheidt wrote: >Alexander Schreiber wrote: >:Simon Allaway wrote: >:>Ralph Wade Phillips wrote: >:>> >:>>Hmmm ... IIRC, it was more like 1100 Hz, or 1.1KHz, or .0011MHz. >:>> >:>>In any case, it was between 300Hz and 3,300 Hz (due to the limits of >:>> the phone company). >:> >:>Wasn't it 2600Hz? Hence the alt.2600 group? > >: No, the 2600 Hz frequency was used in the early phone switching system as >: an inband control signal (usually a _bad_ idea). > >In band signalling still exists on a fair number of trunks. It's still a >bad idea, but phone companies are loath to toss anything. Actually, you will be very hard pressed to find 2600 Hz SF being used for signaling on any trunks today, given 1) the ubiquitous nature of SS7, which uses Common Channel Signaling, and 2) the fact that the entire long distance network is digital and has been for many years now (meaning that even per channel signaling does not use 2600 Hz SF). Incidentally, it should probably be pointed out that when 2600 Hz SF signaling was used, the technology which has since replaced it was simply not available. As the replacement technology became available it was indeed replaced. Which is to say that just because it is a bad idea today does not mean it was a bad idea in 1930 or in 1950. And the particular reasons that have been discussed in this thread are actually not at all what makes it a bad idea in the year 2000! It is rather easy with today's technology to avoid the problems of subscribers introducing 2600 Hz tones into a telephone line. It is not so easy to use 2600 Hz SF and pass the amount of information that Equal Access requires be made available to all companies involved in origination, transport, and termination of a telephone call! Actually, it is probably impossible to do with 2600 Hz signaling... which is the specific reason it has been replace. Floyd -- Floyd L. Davidson floyd@barrow.com Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 963956633 5313 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:43:54 GMT Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60028 Floyd Davidson writes: > And the particular reasons that have been discussed in this > thread are actually not at all what makes it a bad idea in the > year 2000! It is rather easy with today's technology to avoid > the problems of subscribers introducing 2600 Hz tones into a > telephone line. But 2600Hz subscriber-side detect is still a feature on many switches (which is sometimes ignored and sometimes logged - the telco folks get a few chuckles out of seeing newbies trying it). > It is not so easy to use 2600 Hz SF and pass > the amount of information that Equal Access requires be made > available to all companies involved in origination, transport, > and termination of a telephone call! True. > Actually, it is probably > impossible to do with 2600 Hz signaling... which is the > specific reason it has been replace. One of the original driving forces behind moving out-of-band was national security. With radio/microwave systems, it was really easy to listen to the traffic with in-band signalling and select the traffic you wanted to eaves- drop on based on the numbers passed in-band. Moving it out-of-band meant that you'd have to listen to all calls on the transmission path to find the one(s) you were interested in. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: Floyd Davidson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 18 Jul 2000 18:06:20 -0800 Organization: __________ Lines: 35 Sender: floyd@barrow.com Message-ID: <87lmyyj2lf.fld@barrow.com> References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-628.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: gnus 5.8.3/XEmacs 21.1.9/Linux Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60027 Terry Kennedy wrote: >Floyd Davidson writes: > >> Actually, it is probably >> impossible to do with 2600 Hz signaling... which is the >> specific reason it has been replace. > > One of the original driving forces behind moving out-of-band was national >security. With radio/microwave systems, it was really easy to listen to the >traffic with in-band signalling and select the traffic you wanted to eaves- >drop on based on the numbers passed in-band. Moving it out-of-band meant that >you'd have to listen to all calls on the transmission path to find the one(s) >you were interested in. > Hmmm... that is an interesting perspective that I'd never heard a thing about before. Perhaps due to the location (i.e., our proximity to Russia) and the massive use of satellite circuits here, we were never concerned with that type of problem. Not because it couldn't be done, but just because we employed a large number of LC-76 style DS1 encryption units, which meant that on those particular DS1's it was indeed impossible to monitor the signaling anyway! Actually it was thought at one time that we would by now be encrypting *all* satellite circuits! We pretty much always assumed that everything which was not encrypted was being monitored. Floyd -- Floyd L. Davidson floyd@barrow.com Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ###### From: Alistair@caribsurf.com (Alistair Gale) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 19 Jul 2000 03:03:11 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> Reply-To: alistair@caribsurf.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-494.newsdawg.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!Alistair Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60014 On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:43:54 GMT, Terry Kennedy wrote: > One of the original driving forces behind moving out-of-band was national >security. With radio/microwave systems, it was really easy to listen to the >traffic with in-band signalling and select the traffic you wanted to eaves- >drop on based on the numbers passed in-band. Moving it out-of-band meant that >you'd have to listen to all calls on the transmission path to find the one(s) >you were interested in. So what is your explanation for the Digital Telephony Bill/CALEA? The FBI (and No Such Agency) say its difficult to snoop on digital signals. I bet the gummint snoops would love it if the network was still analog and inband signalling. -- alistair ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 963982490 17523 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:54:50 GMT Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60024 Alistair Gale writes: > So what is your explanation for the Digital Telephony Bill/CALEA? Either massive stupidity or an obvious attempt to bypass getting a warrant - see below. > The FBI (and No Such Agency) say its difficult to snoop on digital signals. > I bet the gummint snoops would love it if the network was still > analog and inband signalling. The traditional method for intercepting these calls still works - you get a judge to agree that a wiretap is necessary and you then contact the relevant telco and tell them you have a warrant for X's traffic. The telco then gives it to you via a previously-agreed-upon method. This works for voice, data, etc. All of this "new crimes need new laws" stuff seems to either be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how telecommunications works, or a desire to intercept traffic *without* having to get a warrant and involve the rele- vant telcos. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> <87lmyyj2lf.fld@barrow.com> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 963982948 17523 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 05:02:29 GMT Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.flash.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60015 Floyd Davidson writes: > Hmmm... that is an interesting perspective that I'd never heard > a thing about before. Perhaps due to the location (i.e., our > proximity to Russia) and the massive use of satellite circuits > here, we were never concerned with that type of problem. Not > because it couldn't be done, but just because we employed a > large number of LC-76 style DS1 encryption units, which meant > that on those particular DS1's it was indeed impossible to > monitor the signaling anyway! On the New York / Washington DC microwave route, there was an interesting pattern to the distribution of property owned by / leased to assorted for- eign governments. This pre-dates digital transmission - certainly you could use in-band signalling on an encrypted T1. BTW, I'm told that one of the reasons for the government wanting unframed T1's is so that you can't tell how/if it is channelized (you can't just take "DS0 #4" and analyze it) - an unframed encrypted T1 w/ 24 voice channels has substantial additional randomization because of the multiple independent voice channels. > We pretty much always assumed that everything which was not > encrypted was being monitored. These days it's probably possible (see published rumors about Echelon, for example). But in the timeframe when the decison to go out-of-band was made, some foreign "monitoring" apparently consisted of boxes that decoded the in-band signaling and activated tape recorders if a number of interest was found. Monitoring "everything" would have been a needle-in-the-haystack proposition. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:35:59 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8l4otv$2guq$1@news.enteract.com> References: <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <39737A54.FE2BB0F1@uchicago.edu> <8l1p3f$rir$1@news.enteract.com> <87d7kbjiif.fld@barrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 964028159 82906 207.229.143.40 (19 Jul 2000 17:35:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:35:59 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.5-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:60053 Terry Kennedy wrote: : All of this "new crimes need new laws" stuff seems to either be based on : a fundamental misunderstanding of how telecommunications works, or a desire : to intercept traffic *without* having to get a warrant and involve the rele- : vant telcos. Bingo. Law enforcement is taking advantage of people not understanding how things work to get new powers. No suprise there. -- David Scheidt The presumption of the flamers is, I assume, that folks barging in to AFU with tired old stories and off-topic drivel have already ignored the polite and subtle clues, and require a thwack with the clue-by-four. -- Andrew Reid ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Message-ID: References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:25:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.251.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 965449558 168.191.251.30 (Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:25:58 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:25:58 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61328 On 14 Jul 2000 19:40:12 GMT, Eric Chomko wrote: >Bruce Linley wrote: >: In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... >: > >: >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) >: >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the >: >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before > >: Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? > >It's 2 Hertz? The whistle sound from an answer modem, anyone know the >frequency? > >Btw, I do have excellent hearing. :) 2 Hertz is 2 vibrations per second; you would hear this as a thump every half-second, not as a sound. 2 MHz is well above the upper range of hearing. 2 KHz (two thousand Hertz) seems more likely. -- John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@poboxes.com PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/ -- "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Message-ID: References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:25:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.251.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 965449559 168.191.251.30 (Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:25:59 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:25:59 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61331 On 13 Jul 2000 13:09:27 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote: >Eric Chomko writes: > >> Actually, I think the DB-9 connector as a more compact version of the >> DB-25 RS-232 interface was the best aspect of IBM and the PC. Apple using > >Nope. A DB-9 has the exact same form factor as a DB-25, albeit with >only 9 pins instead of 25. Perhaps you mean a DE-9? DB/DE describes >the shell size. If this is the case, then a lot of manufacturers mislabel their connectors. The small 9-pin shell connectors, such as have become standard for serial mice, are usually labelled as DB-9's on the package. -- John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@poboxes.com PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/ -- "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson ###### Message-ID: <398BC63A.68E156D0@rmi.net> From: Reed Organization: None whatsoever X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? References: <6un1k3hs8t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <8kkomk$jrq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:46:02 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.93.219.238 X-Complaints-To: news@rmi.net X-Trace: den-news1.rmi.net 965460741 166.93.219.238 (Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:32:21 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:32:21 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!natasha.rmii.com!den-news1.rmi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61326 Exactly. Mis-labeled. Over time, any shell with the trapezoid shape of the D-Sub series came to be called "DB". see http://epl.harvard.edu/Engineering/d-subminiature.html for more info Along the same line, the term "RJ-45" has been usurped by the LAN folks. The term RJ-45 actually describes a telephony connection for use with data modems, much like RJ-11 for ordinary telephones. Just because they use an 8 pin modular plug/jack does not make it a true RJ-45 applicatiion. See http://www.ameritech.com/products/data/teamdata/hardware/1201stjk.html for some of the other actual RJ specs. --Reed "John F. Eldredge" wrote: > > On 13 Jul 2000 13:09:27 -0700, Marco S Hyman wrote: > > >Eric Chomko writes: > > > >> Actually, I think the DB-9 connector as a more compact version of the > >> DB-25 RS-232 interface was the best aspect of IBM and the PC. Apple using > > > >Nope. A DB-9 has the exact same form factor as a DB-25, albeit with > >only 9 pins instead of 25. Perhaps you mean a DE-9? DB/DE describes > >the shell size. > > If this is the case, then a lot of manufacturers mislabel their > connectors. The small 9-pin shell connectors, such as have become > standard for serial mice, are usually labelled as DB-9's on the > package. > -- > John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@poboxes.com > PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/ > -- > "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; > not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 05 Aug 2000 23:56:31 +0300 Organization: Compugen, Ltd. Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 965508991 3060 194.90.227.168 (5 Aug 2000 20:56:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2000 20:56:31 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61371 TheCentralScrutinizer.199@pobox.com () writes: > On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:25:58 GMT, John F. Eldredge wrote: > >On 14 Jul 2000 19:40:12 GMT, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > >>Bruce Linley wrote: > >>: In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... > >>: > > >>: >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) > >>: >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the > >>: >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before > >> > >>: Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? > >> > >>It's 2 Hertz? The whistle sound from an answer modem, anyone know the > >>frequency? > >> > >>Btw, I do have excellent hearing. :) > > > >2 Hertz is 2 vibrations per second; you would hear this as a thump > >every half-second, not as a sound. 2 MHz is well above the upper > >range of hearing. 2 KHz (two thousand Hertz) seems more likely. > > No you wouldn't. You're describing a 2hz square wave which is 2hz plus > every other harmonic ad infinitum. A 2hz sinewave woule be inaudible. A 2hz square wave would also be inaudible, even assuming a near-perfect shape. You're basically looking at a DC second switching twice a second. Square waves have all odd harmonics, decreasing as 1/n. By the time you're audible above the basses (say 40Hz), you've got 1/20 the amplitude of the base frequency. But if you're generating 2Hz with a relay, you'll hear it like you hear the clicks when your dashboard turn signal is on... 2KHz, on the other hand, is nicely audible, square, sine or triangular. -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 20:01:00 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8mia0t$oq2$1@news.igs.net> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttyd09.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 965520221 25410 216.58.99.169 (6 Aug 2000 00:03:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2000 00:03:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!172.31.25.103!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!216.58.1.11!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61339 TheCentralScrutinizer.199@pobox.com wrote in message ... > >No you wouldn't. You're describing a 2hz square wave which is 2hz plus >every other harmonic ad infinitum. A 2hz sinewave woule be inaudible. It's been a while since I studied any of this stuff, but is not a square wave the sum of the *ODD* harmonics only? ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Message-ID: <2ljpos8ejuffe2cc0goq9f88p5mfu1l0n7@4ax.com> References: <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 02:36:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.26.5.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 965529398 63.26.5.74 (Sat, 05 Aug 2000 19:36:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 19:36:38 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61375 On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 15:41:51 GMT, TheCentralScrutinizer.199@pobox.com () wrote: >On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:25:58 GMT, John F. Eldredge wrote: >>On 14 Jul 2000 19:40:12 GMT, Eric Chomko wrote: >> >>>Bruce Linley wrote: >>>: In ye olden post Eric Chomko spake... >>>: > >>>: >I loved it because at the time I was using a homebrew modem (300 baud) >>>: >that required I disconnect the wire from the handset and plug it into the >>>: >modem when I heard the 2Mhz beep after dialing a remote system. Before >>> >>>: Wow! You can hear a 2 MHz beep? >>> >>>It's 2 Hertz? The whistle sound from an answer modem, anyone know the >>>frequency? >>> >>>Btw, I do have excellent hearing. :) >> >>2 Hertz is 2 vibrations per second; you would hear this as a thump >>every half-second, not as a sound. 2 MHz is well above the upper >>range of hearing. 2 KHz (two thousand Hertz) seems more likely. > >No you wouldn't. You're describing a 2hz square wave which is 2hz plus >every other harmonic ad infinitum. A 2hz sinewave woule be inaudible. Which is why I said that you would hear this as a thump (vibration), rather than as sound. If a subsonic sound is loud enough, you can sense the pressure change, but you sense it as pressure on the eardrum, not as sound. -- John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@poboxes.com PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/ -- "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 6 Aug 2000 02:47:03 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8mijj7$a64$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 965530023 10436 134.117.136.30 (6 Aug 2000 02:47:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2000 02:47:03 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61360 (TheCentralScrutinizer.199@pobox.com) writes: > On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:25:58 GMT, John F. Eldredge wrote: >> >>2 Hertz is 2 vibrations per second; you would hear this as a thump >>every half-second, not as a sound. 2 MHz is well above the upper >>range of hearing. 2 KHz (two thousand Hertz) seems more likely. > > No you wouldn't. You're describing a 2hz square wave which is 2hz plus > every other harmonic ad infinitum. A 2hz sinewave woule be inaudible. (I tried to edit out the lines attributed to others in the post.) Recently, one of those disgusting [*] educational nature shows (TVO's Vista) had an item about elephant's subaudible communication. I don't recall what the bottom frequency was, but judging by the size of the beast, ear resonances in the teens of Hz doesn't seem farfetched. Humans can appreciate 2 Hz in those vibrating beds flogged, er, sold by Gordy Tapp in Canada. * Why do they put those nature shows featuring fighting, fleeing, fu, um, mating and birthing at supper time? Puts me off my feed. ###### Lines: 19 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: bbreynolds@aol.comskipthis (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 06 Aug 2000 04:01:09 GMT References: <3970A904.53AEFDD4@earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Message-ID: <20000806000109.02775.00003316@nso-bd.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61358 In article <3970A904.53AEFDD4@earthlink.net>, jchausler writes: >It must be, 2Hz.....you mean 2KHz :-) Actually IIRC the frequencies were >1070/1270 Hz originate and 2025/2225 Hz answer. I used to repair >acoustic couplers (Omnitec ??) and would frequently whistle about the >answer frequencies to see that the acoustic coupler (usually only capable >of originate) would respond. This was about 1970. I often would whistle tones to get relucant 300/1200 baud acoustic couplers to connect; I carried the technique further---as a brass player, I knew double-tongue and triple-tongue techniques---whistling the third variation from Arban's would generate "'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves..." on a glass TTY. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Independent/Legacy Systems Consultant: Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA---Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 05:04:38 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 28 Message-ID: <398cec3f.33339271@news.shuswap.net> References: <20000701065009.19348.00000395@ng-fh1.aol.com> <8kf7ct$p5l$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <396CA529.3B5E2996@earthlink.net> <525849CF68B224DF.01596731FDBF4ADE.1CA5851AC7C19D38@lp.airnews.net> <2000Jul13.101552.12763@lorelei.approve.se> <1068.229T192T6373181@sky.bus.com> <8knjj6$7vs$1@megami.org> <8knqas$odt@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> <8mia0t$oq2$1@news.igs.net> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-10.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 965538159 4959 139.142.177.140 (6 Aug 2000 05:02:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2000 05:02:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61356 TheCentralScrutinizer.199@pobox.com () wrote: >On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 20:01:00 -0400, donald tees wrote: >> >>TheCentralScrutinizer.199@pobox.com wrote in message ... >> >>> >>>No you wouldn't. You're describing a 2hz square wave which is 2hz plus >>>every other harmonic ad infinitum. A 2hz sinewave woule be inaudible. >> >>It's been a while since I studied any of this stuff, but is not a square >>wave >>the sum of the *ODD* harmonics only? > >I think so. I was sure wether was odd or even so I just said ever >other harmonic. And as "every other" can mean "all of the other" as well as "every second" (in a counting sense), lo confusion. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Alistair@caribsurf.com (Alistair Gale) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 10/100BaseT -- Why RJ45 and why 4 pair? Date: 6 Aug 2000 13:27:38 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3970A904.53AEFDD4@earthlink.net> <20000806000109.02775.00003316@nso-bd.aol.com> Reply-To: alistair@caribsurf.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-699.newsdawg.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.sovam.com!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!Alistair Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:61345 On 06 Aug 2000 04:01:09 GMT, Bruce B. Reynolds wrote: > >I carried the technique further---as a brass player, I knew >double-tongue and triple-tongue techniques---whistling the third variation from >Arban's would generate "'Twas brillig, and the slithy >toves..." on a glass TTY. Gosh, you must have been popular wit' the ladies! -- alistair Ah, Blackadder. Started talking to yourself, I see. Yes...it's the only way I can be assured of intelligent conversation. -- Melchett and Edmund : Potato