From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 12:21:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> X-Trace: FovE2VdWjP1vpfhPmoH75lqU8BVi9Fl6j8I9+8hMxTI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 15:13:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-232-5 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58210 In article , Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >donald tees wrote: > >> And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. >> Donald > > Ah, that sounds good. It is a mainframe if it >needs a specially built >room all to itself. And attendants to bathe it, feed it and preserve it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: RE: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 10:20:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8iqf27$qfl$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> X-Trace: +vEAD1Ew65SgUh1LoveOE3tR76damXlJWwXm28vVAro= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:13:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-122 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58211 In article <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net>, "Philo" wrote: >All right all you young kids...everyone missed the point. It ain't a >mainframe unless it has at least 50,000 vacuum tubes in it...OK? >:) Philo Thanks :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 10:32:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8iqfnq$d9h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqfjv$74d$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: aaSmRJuiJ7NjPMuIr7VC0r7S5M8XA751nrztEg07ZPI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:25:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-122 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58213 In article <8iqfjv$74d$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >"donald tees" writes: > >>Philo wrote in message <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net>... > >>>All right all you young kids...everyone missed the point. It ain't a >>>mainframe unless it has at least 50,000 vacuum tubes in it...OK? > >>And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. > >And requires 3-phase power. > >And bills users based on the amount of CPU time their job consumes. And during the paper crisis, the number of pages printed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 10:21:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: +vEAD1Ew65SSw4HORcqRUbIBb2Jm3SMPYj0MonmCXRw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:14:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-122 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58215 In article <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >> WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? > >It's a small insect that feeds on bananas. Well, that one flew right over my head. Explanation, please? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 22 Jun 00 09:43:27 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <682.208T1368T5834861@sky.bus.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it1mf$cd$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-271.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58277 In article <8it1mf$cd$1@top.mitre.org> jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) writes: >cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > >>It might be a mainframe if... >> >>If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a >>mainframe. > >As a data point, the IBM 2314 disk storage box (which held nine >separate disk drives with removable disk packs) was widely known >as the "Pizza Oven" because of both its size and appearance. The size and shape of the drawers, and the way they slid out, made the more twisted among us refer to it as "the morgue". -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 22 Jun 00 09:49:52 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-270.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58281 In article <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >>If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it >>might be a mainframe. > >And this one brought back many memories. Females didn't have >suit protection. I was the one who wore a huge afghan around >body and head. And there were times that I considered making >charwoman's gloves but managed to survive with juidicious >armpit usage. It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. The temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room was just too much. It's much more important that the temperature not vary too much than that it be so damned cold. There's no reason why people and machines can't both be comfortable. None of the computers I ever worked with had cryogenic circuits, and I certainly don't. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 08:50:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8isu40$6dc$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqud9$ebe$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: E+ovsWxA8Ogqpbxsq0R/SIYIflbVpF8jHx4V/aRyfes= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:42:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-34 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58293 In article <8iqud9$ebe$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> In article <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, >> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>> WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? >>> >>>It's a small insect that feeds on bananas. >> >> Well, that one flew right over my head. >> >> Explanation, please? > >It's from The Secret Policeman's Ball, where Peter Cook is boring >the pants off John Cleese and then comes up with this line (to >paraphrase): "Did you know that the blue whale isn't a fish? It >is, in fact, a small insect that feeds on bananas." I sort of >liked the association between "blue whale" and "mainframe" for >some reason, but then again I am daft. Ah, thank you :-). We liked blue. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 10:27:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: KE19bLoTu5hxuBw3i98WC2ouMa7cvZD+IF/TddraRjo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 13:20:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-231-103 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58295 In article <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> And attendants to bathe it, feed it and preserve it. > >I haven't seen Tom Harrington in this thread, so I hope he >doesn't mind me posting his famed "It Might Be A Mainframe >If..." list on his behalf! Thanks. I hadn't seen this before now :-). >It might be a mainframe if... >----------------------------- >If it's so large that a dropped pen will slowly orbit it, it might be a >mainframe. I liked this one the best. We never tried this test. However, humans orbited ours alot. >If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it >might be a mainframe. And this one brought back many memories. Females didn't have suit protection. I was the one who wore a huge afghan around body and head. And there were times that I considered making charwoman's gloves but managed to survive with juidicious armpit usage. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 10:20:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8it3du$el3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8isu40$6dc$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <8it1k9$1iea$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: yDlLPMHtjDEQSaQQcV7QDICA9IpEh8JhgTwstoQ7pGc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 13:13:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-231-103 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58296 In article <8it1k9$1iea$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <8isu40$6dc$6@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>In article <8iqud9$ebe$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, >> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>In article <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>>> In article <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, >>>> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>>>> WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? >>>>> >>>>>It's a small insect that feeds on bananas. >>>> >>>> Well, that one flew right over my head. >>>> >>>> Explanation, please? >>> >>>It's from The Secret Policeman's Ball, where Peter Cook is boring >>>the pants off John Cleese and then comes up with this line (to >>>paraphrase): "Did you know that the blue whale isn't a fish? It >>>is, in fact, a small insect that feeds on bananas." I sort of >>>liked the association between "blue whale" and "mainframe" for >>>some reason, but then again I am daft. >> >>Ah, thank you :-). We liked blue. >> >>/BAH >> >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. > >Hey, wait a minute! I thought we were supposed to be the ones who liked >blue, like in "Big Blue". :*) But ours was a prettier blue. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 00 15:17:51 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <628.209T2559T9175836@sky.bus.com> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-716.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!skynet.be!208.171.248.21.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58359 In article <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >However, somebody forgot to turn off the A/Cs. It was so >cold in there, not even the manly types could stay for long. We had that happen once. The oil in the disk drive actuators congealed, and the heads wouldn't load until we had everything up and spinning for an hour or so. >Another class of people who believe that myth are OBGyns (of >course, you probably have never had that pleasure :-)). No, thank God. I shudder to even think about it. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 08:16:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8j24t6$d2c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> X-Trace: UFbcnKBq3s3wQRMGUw9o9mtSkO8nqyC76xNsqu5Qnnw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 11:09:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-174 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58381 In article <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net>, "donald tees" wrote: >We seem to have wandered here. Is this still mainframe related? >;<) Mainframes produced gods. You told a story of one :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 09:32:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: jHbPXYA1jMS4eNM1G7u06eqxZbAzXKNyo60ZqktR1G0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:25:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-50 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58390 In article <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) >writes: > >>>If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it >>>might be a mainframe. >> >>And this one brought back many memories. Females didn't have >>suit protection. I was the one who wore a huge afghan around >>body and head. And there were times that I considered making >>charwoman's gloves but managed to survive with juidicious >>armpit usage. > >It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. I know that. But just try to tell those men that. The same thing happened in the office area. > The >temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. >I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed >in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room >was just too much. Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. However, somebody forgot to turn off the A/Cs. It was so cold in there, not even the manly types could stay for long. > >It's much more important that the temperature not vary too much >than that it be so damned cold. There's no reason why people >and machines can't both be comfortable. None of the computers >I ever worked with had cryogenic circuits, and I certainly don't. Another class of people who believe that myth are OBGyns (of course, you probably have never had that pleasure :-)). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 11:06:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8ivqgr$7oh$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: ajGpmO9L0XeS2DSb8/qL2zDItyhHCb7RZAxp3cB20TU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:59:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-79 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58395 In article <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a >>threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the >>hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been >>my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and >>TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that >>was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. > >It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I >was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine >room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly >died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse >when you don't expect it. > >(It turned out that some brain-dead body in Facilities had brought in >an equally brain-dead technician to work on the fire alarm system >without even bothering to tell the supervisor about it. This klutz >managed to trip the circuit that kills the computers, network head-end >equipment, the UPS boxes, and all of the air conditioning systems.) Did you suddenly find yourself whispering, decide to talk out loud, then immediately go back to whispering? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: RE: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:19:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 5 Message-ID: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-250-72-35.htsnet.net X-Trace: 961550458 news.twtelecom.net 149 207.250.72.35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.inc.net!news.twtelecom.net!news.twtelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58243 All right all you young kids...everyone missed the point. It ain't a mainframe unless it has at least 50,000 vacuum tubes in it...OK? :) Philo ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 21 Jun 2000 08:04:21 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961578799 nnrp-08:1691 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 08:04:21 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58217 > WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? It's a small insect that feeds on bananas. Chris. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.0-STABLE (i386)) Message-ID: Lines: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:01:15 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.184.139.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 961599167 206.184.139.148 (Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:52:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:52:47 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58235 donald tees wrote: > And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. > Donald Ah, that sounds good. It is a mainframe if it needs a specially built room all to itself. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:23:11 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8iqfjv$74d$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 961593791 7309 128.29.251.13 (21 Jun 2000 13:23:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:23:11 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58203 "donald tees" writes: >Philo wrote in message <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net>... >>All right all you young kids...everyone missed the point. It ain't a >>mainframe unless it has at least 50,000 vacuum tubes in it...OK? >And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. And requires 3-phase power. And bills users based on the amount of CPU time their job consumes. Joe Morris ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:35:37 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8iqud9$ebe$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961614966 nnrp-14:595 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:35:37 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58304 In article <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, > cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>> WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? >> >>It's a small insect that feeds on bananas. > > Well, that one flew right over my head. > > Explanation, please? It's from The Secret Policeman's Ball, where Peter Cook is boring the pants off John Cleese and then comes up with this line (to paraphrase): "Did you know that the blue whale isn't a fish? It is, in fact, a small insect that feeds on bananas." I sort of liked the association between "blue whale" and "mainframe" for some reason, but then again I am daft. Chris. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:40:36 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961614967 nnrp-14:595 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:40:36 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58306 In article <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > And attendants to bathe it, feed it and preserve it. I haven't seen Tom Harrington in this thread, so I hope he doesn't mind me posting his famed "It Might Be A Mainframe If..." list on his behalf! Chris It might be a mainframe if... ----------------------------- If you could kill someone by tipping it over on them, it might be a mainframe. If the only "mouse" it has is the one living inside it, it might be a mainframe. If you need earth-moving equipment to relocate it, it might be a mainframe. (thanks to Tor Sjowall) If you've ever lost an oscilloscope inside of it, it might be a mainframe. (thanks to Tim Shoppa) If it's big enough to be used as an apartment, it might be a mainframe. If it has ever had a card-punch designed for it, it might be a mainframe. If it weighs more than an RV, it might be a mainframe. If lights in the neighborhood dim when it's powered up, it might be a mainframe. If it arrived in its own moving van, it might be a mainframe. If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a mainframe. If Michael Jordan would need his entire annual salary to buy one, it might be a mainframe. If keeping all of the manuals together creates a fire hazard, it might be a mainframe. If it's so large that a dropped pen will slowly orbit it, it might be a mainframe. If it's ever been mistaken for a refrigerator, (or if the disk drive has ever been mistaken for a washing machine), it might be a mainframe. If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it might be a mainframe. If it has a power supply that's bigger than your car, it might be a mainframe. If it has its own postal code, it might be a mainframe. If the operators considered the addition of COBOL to be an upgrade, it might be a mainframe. If it was designed before you were born, it might be a mainframe. If its main power cable is thicker than your neck, it might be a mainframe. If the designers have since died from old age, it might be a mainframe. ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:53:38 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttya1d.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 961610279 3872 216.58.99.61 (21 Jun 2000 17:57:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:57:59 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!216.58.1.11!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58191 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... >In article , > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>donald tees wrote: >> >>> And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. >>> Donald >> >> Ah, that sounds good. It is a mainframe if it >>needs a specially built >>room all to itself. > >And attendants to bathe it, feed it and preserve it. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNLT Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:17:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.29.103 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 961611477 209.63.29.103 (Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:17:57 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:17:57 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58239 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > Ah, that sounds good. It is a mainframe if it needs a specially built > room all to itself. when I was in school we had a 709 (something like serial number 1, 2, or 3, pretty sure <5) ... lots & lots of tubes ... and a room that had a 20ton rated air conditioner. we tried to interest ibm in it for a museum ... but finally sold it for scrap. guy that bought it, installed it in a barn and placed larger blower fans at the barn doors ... and would operate it when it when outside temp. was cool enuf. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com, finger for pgp key http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 21 Jun 2000 19:34:47 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8ir5cn$h83$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961617090 nnrp-13:22547 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 19:34:47 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58298 ...although given that list, what I'm using now could "almost" qualify as a mainframe... In article <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > If keeping all of the manuals together creates a fire hazard, it might > be a mainframe. Well, that's definitely true. > If it's ever been mistaken for a refrigerator, (or if the disk drive > has ever been mistaken for a washing machine), it might be a > mainframe. It has so far been mistaken for various kitchen appliances, along with questions as to why it makes so much noise. > If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it > might be a mainframe. I don't have air-con, so they're more likely to be fried. > If the operators considered the addition of COBOL to be an upgrade, it > might be a mainframe. I think it would, but maybe I'm just old-fashioned. > If its main power cable is thicker than your neck, it might be a > mainframe. Sadly, it's only single-phase, but it does need two power inputs. It's probably also big enough to cause someone serious injury if they got run over by it, and I have occasionally lost things inside it. However, in spite of the fact that it's bigger and noisier than a VAX-4000, I don't think that anything which uses a "motherboard" (what's that? Some sort of backplane, or a new switching system?) and the closest thing it has to channels are a pair of SCSI things, not to mention the lack of external boxes to house anything not directly related to the CPU, could ever be called a mainframe. It does use an almost-respectible operating system, though, as I feel that FreeBSD is a hell of a lot closer to TOPS, VMS, Multics, VM and so on than it is to the Micros~1 atrocities. Chris. ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:17:47 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttyd10.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 961554149 3055 216.58.99.176 (21 Jun 2000 02:22:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 02:22:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58192 Philo wrote in message <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net>... >All right all you young kids...everyone missed the point. It ain't a >mainframe unless it has at least 50,000 vacuum tubes in it...OK? >:) Philo > And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. Donald ###### From: Joona I Palaste Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:31:38 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 85 Message-ID: <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961669898 14661 128.214.205.27 (22 Jun 2000 10:31:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:31:38 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58327 Chris Hedley scribbled the following: : In article <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, : jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: :> And attendants to bathe it, feed it and preserve it. : I haven't seen Tom Harrington in this thread, so I hope he : doesn't mind me posting his famed "It Might Be A Mainframe : If..." list on his behalf! : Chris : It might be a mainframe if... : ----------------------------- : If you could kill someone by tipping it over on them, it might be a : mainframe. : If the only "mouse" it has is the one living inside it, it might be a : mainframe. : If you need earth-moving equipment to relocate it, it might be a : mainframe. (thanks to Tor Sjowall) : If you've ever lost an oscilloscope inside of it, it might be a : mainframe. (thanks to Tim Shoppa) : If it's big enough to be used as an apartment, it might be a : mainframe. : If it has ever had a card-punch designed for it, it might be a : mainframe. : If it weighs more than an RV, it might be a mainframe. : If lights in the neighborhood dim when it's powered up, it might be a : mainframe. : If it arrived in its own moving van, it might be a mainframe. : If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a : mainframe. : If Michael Jordan would need his entire annual salary to buy one, it : might be a mainframe. : If keeping all of the manuals together creates a fire hazard, it might : be a mainframe. : If it's so large that a dropped pen will slowly orbit it, it might be a : mainframe. : If it's ever been mistaken for a refrigerator, (or if the disk drive : has ever been mistaken for a washing machine), it might be a : mainframe. : If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it : might be a mainframe. : If it has a power supply that's bigger than your car, it might be a : mainframe. : If it has its own postal code, it might be a mainframe. : If the operators considered the addition of COBOL to be an upgrade, it : might be a mainframe. : If it was designed before you were born, it might be a mainframe. : If its main power cable is thicker than your neck, it might be a : mainframe. : If the designers have since died from old age, it might be a : mainframe. If it has enough mass to start and contain a nuclear fusion reaction in its core without outside energy input, it might be a mainframe. -- /-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\ | Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #80 D+ ADA N+++ | | http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ | \----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/ "I will never display my bum in public again." - Homer Simpson ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:42:49 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8it1k9$1iea$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8isu40$6dc$6@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58319 In <8isu40$6dc$6@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <8iqud9$ebe$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, > cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>In article <8iqf3r$qfl$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>> In article <8ipsu5$e3$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, >>> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>>> WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? >>>> >>>>It's a small insect that feeds on bananas. >>> >>> Well, that one flew right over my head. >>> >>> Explanation, please? >> >>It's from The Secret Policeman's Ball, where Peter Cook is boring >>the pants off John Cleese and then comes up with this line (to >>paraphrase): "Did you know that the blue whale isn't a fish? It >>is, in fact, a small insect that feeds on bananas." I sort of >>liked the association between "blue whale" and "mainframe" for >>some reason, but then again I am daft. > >Ah, thank you :-). We liked blue. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Hey, wait a minute! I thought we were supposed to be the ones who liked blue, like in "Big Blue". :*) Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:43:59 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8it1mf$cd$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 961677839 397 128.29.251.13 (22 Jun 2000 12:43:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:43:59 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58272 cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >It might be a mainframe if... >If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a >mainframe. As a data point, the IBM 2314 disk storage box (which held nine separate disk drives with removable disk packs) was widely known as the "Pizza Oven" because of both its size and appearance. Joe Morris ###### Message-ID: <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:02:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.50.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 961686130 63.15.50.15 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:02:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:02:10 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58289 donald tees wrote: > No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. > Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. And it was always best to keep the beer just adjacent to where the AC forced the air under the false floor cause that was the coldest spot. Of course this would obstruct the airflow to the machines, but what was important anyway, happy machines or happy operators..... Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Joona I Palaste Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:39:34 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 89 Message-ID: <8itj0m$c12$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961695574 12322 128.214.205.27 (22 Jun 2000 17:39:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:39:34 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58321 Joona I Palaste scribbled the following: : Chris Hedley scribbled the following: : : In article <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, : : jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: : :> And attendants to bathe it, feed it and preserve it. : : I haven't seen Tom Harrington in this thread, so I hope he : : doesn't mind me posting his famed "It Might Be A Mainframe : : If..." list on his behalf! : : Chris : : It might be a mainframe if... : : ----------------------------- : : If you could kill someone by tipping it over on them, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If the only "mouse" it has is the one living inside it, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If you need earth-moving equipment to relocate it, it might be a : : mainframe. (thanks to Tor Sjowall) : : If you've ever lost an oscilloscope inside of it, it might be a : : mainframe. (thanks to Tim Shoppa) : : If it's big enough to be used as an apartment, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If it has ever had a card-punch designed for it, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If it weighs more than an RV, it might be a mainframe. : : If lights in the neighborhood dim when it's powered up, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If it arrived in its own moving van, it might be a mainframe. : : If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If Michael Jordan would need his entire annual salary to buy one, it : : might be a mainframe. : : If keeping all of the manuals together creates a fire hazard, it might : : be a mainframe. : : If it's so large that a dropped pen will slowly orbit it, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If it's ever been mistaken for a refrigerator, (or if the disk drive : : has ever been mistaken for a washing machine), it might be a : : mainframe. : : If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it : : might be a mainframe. : : If it has a power supply that's bigger than your car, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If it has its own postal code, it might be a mainframe. : : If the operators considered the addition of COBOL to be an upgrade, it : : might be a mainframe. : : If it was designed before you were born, it might be a mainframe. : : If its main power cable is thicker than your neck, it might be a : : mainframe. : : If the designers have since died from old age, it might be a : : mainframe. : If it has enough mass to start and contain a nuclear fusion reaction : in its core without outside energy input, it might be a mainframe. If making the receipt for its payment requires cutting down all the forests in Canada, it might be a mainframe. -- /-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\ | Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #80 D+ ADA N+++ | | http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ | \----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/ "To know me IS to love me." - JIPsoft ###### Message-ID: <3952EEE9.5FDC69F3@worldnet.att.net> From: William Lynch Reply-To: wblynch@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:01:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.174.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 961736467 12.78.174.100 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:01:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:01:07 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58401 Philo wrote: > > All right all you young kids...everyone missed the point. It ain't a > mainframe unless it has at least 50,000 vacuum tubes in it...OK? C'mon, now, that's just an early mainframe. Modern ones have huge arrays of core memory. Bill L ###### Message-ID: <3952EFDD.F6549EAE@worldnet.att.net> From: William Lynch Reply-To: wblynch@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it1mf$cd$1@top.mitre.org> <682.208T1368T5834861@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:05:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.174.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 961736711 12.78.174.100 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:05:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:05:11 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58402 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <8it1mf$cd$1@top.mitre.org> jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG > (Joe Morris) writes: > > >cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > > > >>It might be a mainframe if... > >> > >>If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a > >>mainframe. > > > >As a data point, the IBM 2314 disk storage box (which held nine > >separate disk drives with removable disk packs) was widely known > >as the "Pizza Oven" because of both its size and appearance. > > The size and shape of the drawers, and the way they slid out, > made the more twisted among us refer to it as "the morgue". Probably depends on one's frame of reference. Happy to report that we called them pizza ovens. Bill L :-) ###### Message-ID: <3952F02D.6EA8DA94@worldnet.att.net> From: William Lynch Reply-To: wblynch@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:06:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.174.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 961736791 12.78.174.100 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:06:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:06:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58399 jchausler wrote: > > donald tees wrote: > > > No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. > > Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. > > And it was always best to keep the beer just adjacent to where the > AC forced the air under the false floor cause that was the coldest > spot. Of course this would obstruct the airflow to the machines, but > what was important anyway, happy machines or happy operators..... Which explains why the a/c had to be cranked up, the beer diverted much cooling from the equipment. Bill L ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:29:35 GMT Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Lines: 19 <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8itj0m$c12$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 961788091 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk26.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!feed.newsreader.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!12.127.17.134!attbtf!attcg2!S1044A3M, attcg1!news.bcs.moore.com!attbt1!ip.att.net!newsf1.elp.rr.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58435 In article <8itj0m$c12$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Joona I Palaste writes: [...] >: : If the designers have since died from old age, it might be a >: : mainframe. > >: If it has enough mass to start and contain a nuclear fusion reaction >: in its core without outside energy input, it might be a mainframe. > > If making the receipt for its payment requires cutting down all the > forests in Canada, it might be a mainframe. If it's older than the people who operate it, it might be a mainframe. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "I told you to make one longer than | Work: dg@tao-group.com | another, and instead you have made one | Play: dgiven@iname.com | shorter than the other -- the opposite." +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ --- Sir Boyle Roche ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:29:35 +0100 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8itj0m$c12$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 961788091 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk26.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58449 In article <8itj0m$c12$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Joona I Palaste writes: [...] >: : If the designers have since died from old age, it might be a >: : mainframe. > >: If it has enough mass to start and contain a nuclear fusion reaction >: in its core without outside energy input, it might be a mainframe. > > If making the receipt for its payment requires cutting down all the > forests in Canada, it might be a mainframe. If it's older than the people who operate it, it might be a mainframe. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "I told you to make one longer than | Work: dg@tao-group.com | another, and instead you have made one | Play: dgiven@iname.com | shorter than the other -- the opposite." +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ --- Sir Boyle Roche ###### From: zzassgl@twirl.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:33:58 +0100 Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: twirl.mcc.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!peernews.manap.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!twirl!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58454 In article <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. The > temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. > I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed > in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room > was just too much. You definitely don't want to get below the dewpoint. Water condensing on any part of your mainframe is really bad karma. -- /\ Geoff. Lane. /\ Manchester Computing /\ Manchester /\ M13 9PL /\ England /\ Today's Excuse: The Token fell out of the ring. Call us when you find it. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:42:12 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!tornews.torolab.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58427 In <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net>, jchausler writes: > > >donald tees wrote: > >> No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. >> Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. > >And it was always best to keep the beer just adjacent to where the >AC forced the air under the false floor cause that was the coldest >spot. Of course this would obstruct the airflow to the machines, but >what was important anyway, happy machines or happy operators..... > >Chris >AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE >$$ Does this mean that Europeans have an advantage when it comes to running mainframe installations? (e.g., Certain Europeans believe that beer should be consumed warm, not chilled.). :*) Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them (especially in this post!). ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:50:51 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 74 Message-ID: <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!tornews.torolab.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58429 In <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >>It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. > >I know that. But just try to tell those men that. The >same thing happened in the office area. > We used to frequently have thermostat wars in the office area. Well, of course, we had so much computing power in the offices that it seemed more like a machine room, but I'm digressing. When I finally got an office with a thermostat, I thought I had it made. My illusion was quickly shattered a few hours later when two programmers in adjacent offices showed up at the same instant to complain about the temperature. One was claiming that it was too hot while the other was claiming that it was too cold. I just gave up and let them fight it out. :-( >> The >>temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. >>I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed >>in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room >>was just too much. > >Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a >threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the >hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been >my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and >TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that >was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. > Don't worry. They're vastly overrated in terms of entertainment value. Now, the parties that are associated with them are a different matter. :*) There are few things as spooky as a machine room just after someone has hit the EPO button (EPO=Emergency Power Off). Until this has happened, you really don't know how loud absolute quiet is. >However, somebody forgot to turn off the A/Cs. It was so >cold in there, not even the manly types could stay for long. > You know you're in trouble when the atmosphere condenses into a puddle at your feet. :*) >> >>It's much more important that the temperature not vary too much >>than that it be so damned cold. There's no reason why people >>and machines can't both be comfortable. None of the computers >>I ever worked with had cryogenic circuits, and I certainly don't. > >Another class of people who believe that myth are OBGyns (of >course, you probably have never had that pleasure :-)). > I've heard stories that certain companies own a fleet of refridgerated trucks so that they can take a machine from the final test area, load it onto the cooled truck, ship it to the customer, and install it, without the machine ever having gone through an extreme temperature cycling. I can't verify that it's true, though. >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:41:32 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 961767692 23623 128.29.251.13 (23 Jun 2000 13:41:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:41:32 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58364 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a >threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the >hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been >my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and >TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that >was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse when you don't expect it. (It turned out that some brain-dead body in Facilities had brought in an equally brain-dead technician to work on the fire alarm system without even bothering to tell the supervisor about it. This klutz managed to trip the circuit that kills the computers, network head-end equipment, the UPS boxes, and all of the air conditioning systems.) Joe Morris ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:45:16 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8ivplc$9ar$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 961767916 9563 134.117.136.30 (23 Jun 2000 13:45:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:45:16 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58416 Joe Morris (jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG) writes: > > (It turned out that some brain-dead body in Facilities had brought in > an equally brain-dead technician to work on the fire alarm system > without even bothering to tell the supervisor about it. This klutz > managed to trip the circuit that kills the computers, network head-end > equipment, the UPS boxes, and all of the air conditioning systems.) And higher management declared this a successful test of emergency procedures, right? ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 14:35:38 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 21 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Jun 23 09:35:38 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !c4#F1k-VJ#VNaQ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!nntp.giganews.com!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58356 On 23 Jun 2000 13:41:32 GMT, Joe Morris wrote: >It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I >was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine >room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly >died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse >when you don't expect it. Try intermittent silence... One fine Friday afternoon, the building went dark. The outage only lasted for a second or two, and I made it to the machine room in good time to see operators watching things power up. Then, *blip*...and things got quiet, then noisy...a minute later, *blip*... After the third blip, the operations manager ordered everything powered off by hand until the situation settled down. The power went off hard about 25 minutes later, and stayed off a good long time. Seems an automatic breaker in the switching station just behind the building had gone nuts and kept tripping out. A friend who worked for the power company said that, by the time it was finished, a hunk of metal the size of a Volkswagen had been slagged. ###### From: "brucepbarrett" References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:11:42 -0400 Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers NNTP-Posting-Host: cov-oh5b-64.rasserver.net 205.186.159.64 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpmsnbbsb04!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58347 Spooky is when you are sitting at the console 3 oclock in the morning and you know you are the only person in the building and you sense movement behind you. Scared you check only to find that the lower roller of the print ribbon fell out and went rolling neatly across the floor. "Joe Morris" wrote in message news:8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org... > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a > >threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the > >hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been > >my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and > >TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that > >was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. > > It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I > was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine > room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly > died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse > when you don't expect it. > > (It turned out that some brain-dead body in Facilities had brought in > an equally brain-dead technician to work on the fire alarm system > without even bothering to tell the supervisor about it. This klutz > managed to trip the circuit that kills the computers, network head-end > equipment, the UPS boxes, and all of the air conditioning systems.) > > Joe Morris ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:31:54 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8j00tb$5d4$1@news.igs.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> <8ivqgr$7oh$7@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttya10.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 961775339 5540 216.58.99.48 (23 Jun 2000 15:48:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 15:48:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!216.58.1.11!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58341 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <8ivqgr$7oh$7@bob.news.rcn.net>... >In article <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org>, > jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >>>Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a >>>threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the >>>hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been >>>my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and >>>TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that >>>was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. >> >>It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I >>was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine >>room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly >>died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse >>when you don't expect it. >> >>(It turned out that some brain-dead body in Facilities had brought in >>an equally brain-dead technician to work on the fire alarm system >>without even bothering to tell the supervisor about it. This klutz >>managed to trip the circuit that kills the computers, network head-end >>equipment, the UPS boxes, and all of the air conditioning systems.) > >Did you suddenly find yourself whispering, decide to >talk out loud, then immediately go back to whispering? > You mean , loud , ? Or that the just *sounded* loud? ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:37:23 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttya10.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 961775668 5551 216.58.99.48 (23 Jun 2000 15:54:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 15:54:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!142.77.1.188!news.uunet.ca!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58340 Geoff Lane wrote in message <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl>... >In article <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com>, > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >> It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. The >> temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. >> I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed >> in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room >> was just too much. > > >You definitely don't want to get below the dewpoint. Water condensing on >any part of your mainframe is really bad karma. > I knew a techy once that had a favourite method for finding shorts on large circuit boards. First you place them in the deep freeze, and get the temp down to about 30 below. Then you take them out into the shop, and wait for the board to get a nice covering of frost. The put the power to it. ZIP. The "hot" circuit gets traced into the frost like magic. >-- >/\ Geoff. Lane. /\ Manchester Computing /\ Manchester /\ M13 9PL /\ England /\ > >Today's Excuse: The Token fell out of the ring. Call us when you find it. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:10:26 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8j05m2$33r$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961780338 nnrp-02:19809 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:10:26 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58386 In article <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com writes: > Does this mean that Europeans have an advantage when it comes to running > mainframe installations? (e.g., Certain Europeans believe that beer should > be consumed warm, not chilled.). :*) Urban myth time again, I see. Ales should be served at *cellar* temperature -- too warm is at least as bad as too cold, if not worse. Lager on the other hand needs to be served as cold as possible so that you can't taste how nasty it is. Chris. ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:59:07 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttyd07.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 961787775 10905 216.58.99.167 (23 Jun 2000 19:16:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 19:16:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!216.58.1.11!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58349 TheCentralScrutinizer.197@pobox.com wrote in message ... >On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:37:23 -0400, donald tees wrote: >>Geoff Lane wrote in message <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl>... >>>In article <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com>, >>> "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >>>> It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. The >>>> temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. >>>> I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed >>>> in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room >>>> was just too much. >>> >>> >>>You definitely don't want to get below the dewpoint. Water condensing on >>>any part of your mainframe is really bad karma. >>> >> >>I knew a techy once that had a favourite method for finding shorts on large >>circuit boards. First you place them in the deep freeze, and get the temp >>down to about 30 below. Then you take them out into the shop, and wait for >>the board to get a nice covering of frost. The put the power to it. ZIP. >>The "hot" circuit gets traced into the frost like magic. >> > >I worked @ a assembly plant where a 'bed of nails' tester would check all >the circuit nets for shorts. Sometime it would report a short between two >nets that shared no components in common. Solution: Connect a 30A power >supply to each of the nets that are shorted together. Flip the power >supply on. Short cleared. Check each of the two nets that they contain >all the nodes they're supposed to. Believe it or not, generally the short >is "weak" enough that the nets suffer no damage. The same fellow who used the "frost method" was really an expert at relay logic and industrial control. He is in his 80's now, and still building stuff with PC's. He has a huge model railroad set that he can even turn the lights on the trains off and on through his PC. He was a total madman when it came to wiring, though. He could fix damned near anything with the junk in his toolbox. One week, we were in a large aircraft plant doing some control systems revision during shutdown. One whole area of the plant kept blowing the main breaker, putting down about 4 acres of plant floor. After twelve hours of frustration, Red says "fuck, I''ll find the godamned short". He went to the main panel, and threw the main switch to off. He then bypassed the main fuse with triple ought copper(this is a 200 amp panel). He threw the switch back on. In the distance, there was a muffled "BOOM". Throwing the switch back off, and replacing the fuses, he muttered "Now we know what to bloody well fix". We seem to have wandered here. Is this still mainframe related? ;<) ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 19:33:20 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 5 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Jun 23 14:33:20 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !e2LA1k-XW)k!Y/ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58360 On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:59:07 -0400, donald tees wrote: >We seem to have wandered here. Is this still mainframe related? Sure is...after all, you need 200 amp service to run any decent-sized mainframe... ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:44:51 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3953BE33.174@compuserve.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58352 > > > I worked @ a assembly plant where a 'bed of nails' tester would check all > the circuit nets for shorts. Sometime it would report a short between two > nets that shared no components in common. Solution: Connect a 30A power > supply to each of the nets that are shorted together. Flip the power > supply on. Short cleared. Check each of the two nets that they contain > all the nodes they're supposed to. Believe it or not, generally the short > is "weak" enough that the nets suffer no damage. I once had to debug an S-100 card that someone had assembled and then cleaned up the solder joints with that horrible desoldering wick. He had left little pieces of the wick >everywhere<. Turns out a short tester containing a AA battery and a lightbulb drew enough current to zap the shorts. Got rid of all but one short that way; turns out there were >two< shorts in different places between the same two nets. I managed to find one by eyeballing it (mismatches in patterns leap out at me), and then blew the other short. Sam ###### From: "donald tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:45:06 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8j0fo2$brs$1@news.igs.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttya19.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 961790530 12156 216.58.99.57 (23 Jun 2000 20:02:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 20:02:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58351 Jay Maynard wrote in message ... >On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:59:07 -0400, donald tees wrote: >>We seem to have wandered here. Is this still mainframe related? > >Sure is...after all, you need 200 amp service to run any decent-sized >mainframe... Hey! A new definition. Maybe we should call it warez amps. ;<) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 961795006 1918 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:16:46 GMT Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58371 Jay Maynard writes: > Sure is...after all, you need 200 amp service to run any decent-sized > mainframe... Eh? The 3138 processor (370/138 CPU) used 60A 3-phase power (to run the motor/generator set). The 60A was just because of the surge at startup - if you used time-delay fuses instead of circuit breakers you could go down to 40A or so. And more powerful boxes (high-end 4381's) drew even less current (though of course they were newer). Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 23 Jun 2000 23:43:28 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: X-A-Notice: References line has been trimmed due to 512 byte limitation Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Jun 23 18:43:28 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !b)K^1k-X8#.CpW (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58362 On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:16:46 GMT, Terry Kennedy wrote: >Jay Maynard writes: >> Sure is...after all, you need 200 amp service to run any decent-sized >> mainframe... > Eh? The 3138 processor (370/138 CPU) used 60A 3-phase power (to run the >motor/generator set). The 60A was just because of the surge at startup - if >you used time-delay fuses instead of circuit breakers you could go down to >40A or so. And more powerful boxes (high-end 4381's) drew even less current >(though of course they were newer). Yeah, though one guy has a 4381-92E at his house complete with peripherals; the CPU didn't need three-phase power, but the DASD (3380s) did. This begs the question, of course: Does a 9370/9371-class system qualify? Beats the heck out of me, though I'm trying to lay hands on one... ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:16:00 GMT References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b164.std.com Organization: Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!195.25.12.36.MISMATCH!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!zur.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!world!jsaum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58337 In article <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com wrote: >I've heard stories that certain companies own a fleet of refridgerated >trucks so that they can take a machine from the final test area, load >it onto the cooled truck, ship it to the customer, and install it, without >the machine ever having gone through an extreme temperature cycling. I >can't verify that it's true, though. When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived in a refrigerated trailer. - Jim Saum ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:52:44 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.5e X-Server-Date: 24 Jun 2000 04:55:58 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58446 In article , jsaum@world.std.com says... > In article <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com wrote: > > >I've heard stories that certain companies own a fleet of refridgerated > >trucks so that they can take a machine from the final test area, load > >it onto the cooled truck, ship it to the customer, and install it, without > >the machine ever having gone through an extreme temperature cycling. I > >can't verify that it's true, though. > > When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived > in a refrigerated trailer. > > - Jim Saum > Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? -- friend, --------------------- Howard and Kelly Lute He: Electronics Instructor, Terrible Mechanic, Worse Plumber She: Patient eBay: kell EBay Rating: 660 LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 30 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:47:14 EDT Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:47:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58465 In article , Howard and Kelly Lute wrote: >In article , jsaum@world.std.com >says... >> When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived >> in a refrigerated trailer. >Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? From http://www.amdahl.com/about/timeline.htm: Founded in October 1970, the company's aims were to bring competition to the large systems marketplace by providing cost-efficient high-performance processors that outperformed the competition. From the date of its first delivery, a 470V/6 installed in June 1975 at NASA's New York Goddard Spaceflight Center, [hype omitted] Methods: type "amdahl founding 1976" into Google. Find nothing useful on first page of results. Search instead for "amdahl history". Notice that hit #1 includes chunks of the above quote. Follow link. Make pissy post to Usenet unjustifiably extrapolating original poster's apparent inability to spend forty seconds Googling out to general unfounded feelings of personal superiority over original poster. I'm sorry I'm so irritable today. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:36:04 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 33 Message-ID: <49d3a14dffa__fake__address@argonet.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: userak70.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 961844969 22101 62.188.134.44 (24 Jun 2000 11:09:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 11:09:29 GMT User-Agent: Pluto/1.14i (RISC-OS/4.03) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newsfeed.online.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58450 In article <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. The > temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. > I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed > in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room > was just too much. We used to have the opposite problem in our old computer room. The air conditioning was inadequate and the temperature was usually a nice, cosy 27 celcius in there. Sometimes the air conditioning failed due to the condensors being put where vandals could get to them. On those occasions you would walk into a wall of heat about twenty yards from the machine room. Suprisingly enough some of the equipment would still be running. I remember once we had to switch everything off after one failure and the processor cabinet was still warm to the touch twenty four hours later! It is amazing that the kit still worked (and works to this day) despite all the abuse it has received. At least in our new computer room we just open all the windows if the air conditioning fails. Dave Daniels -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 961845817 18931 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:23:37 GMT Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!nuq-feed.news.verio.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58379 Jay Maynard writes: > This begs the question, of course: Does a 9370/9371-class system qualify? Beats me - I had one when it first came out, and it never worked success- fully. I had various guys from Endicott camped out next to it for a few weeks, but they could never get it to run reliably. There were both periph- eral issues (flipping "test" on an attached 3278 would crash it) and CPU issues (attempting to apply COBOL service under VM/SP would put the system into a hard wait requiring a power cycle to clear it). IBM took it back and we bought a VAX instead. Another group at SPC has something in a box that looks a lot like a 9370, but it claims to be some flavor of 390. It's running VSE/ESA and I don't know a lot about it. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 13:00:46 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2D5D69D4CE0C1DBE.E12A1BEC1A7CC9CF.F3B29D62A2CA2CF2@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Jun 24 08:00:46 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !b1=<1k-Wj#$\L[ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58380 On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:23:37 GMT, Terry Kennedy wrote: > IBM took it back and we bought a VAX instead. Yow. That's definitely unusual for IBM. That's a small enough system that I'm surprised they didn't try swapping the whole box as a unit. For them to lose a sale like that must have been really hard on someone's career... > Another group at SPC has something in a box that looks a lot like a 9370, >but it claims to be some flavor of 390. It's running VSE/ESA and I don't >know a lot about it. Probably a PC Server 300 or 500, or Multiprise 2000. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:05:49 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8j2f7t$ee7$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 961855549 14791 128.29.251.13 (24 Jun 2000 14:05:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:05:49 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58479 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >One fine Friday afternoon, the building went dark. The outage only lasted >for a second or two, and I made it to the machine room in good time to see >operators watching things power up. Then, *blip*...and things got quiet, >then noisy...a minute later, *blip*... Add this to the list of Reasons Why Computer Managers Go Nuts. The facility I managed had UPS boxes, but when I took over the shop they weren't backed up by an emergency generator. When power failed and didn't come back up immediately the operators had about five minutes to do an orderly shutdown before the battery bank voltage dropped to the point that the UPS boxes powered themselves off. (We eventually were tied into the building emergency bus, but only after the generator was replaced by a much larger box.) The operators at the shop when I became manager told me that after the first UPS box (an Exide 4500 rectifier/inverter) was installed, both the frequency and severity of service calls to IBM were significantly reduced. This was due to two effects of the UPS: the computer no longer had power pulled out from under it when the utility feed failed, and the AC power out of the DC-to-AC inverter did not have the significant contamination that was present on the building AC power bus. >After the third blip, the operations manager ordered everything powered off >by hand until the situation settled down. The power went off hard about 25 >minutes later, and stayed off a good long time. Seems an automatic breaker >in the switching station just behind the building had gone nuts and kept >tripping out. A friend who worked for the power company said that, by the >time it was finished, a hunk of metal the size of a Volkswagen had been >slagged. It's been pointed out that when you're talking about the power levels going through the distribution network, you need solid-state switching devices -- as in "solid copper". Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:22:28 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 49 Message-ID: <8j2g74$el9$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <6vhvi8.0fb.ln@twirl> <8j017k$5df$1@news.igs.net> <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 961856548 15017 128.29.251.13 (24 Jun 2000 14:22:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:22:28 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58477 "donald tees" writes: >The same fellow who used the "frost method" was really an expert at relay >logic and industrial control. He is in his 80's now, and still building >stuff with PC's. He has a huge model railroad set that he can even turn the >lights on the trains off and on through his PC. He was a total madman when >it came to wiring, though. He could fix damned near anything with the junk >in his toolbox. At the risk of being called an "old fogey" (or worse), my opinion is that far too many of today's so-called "engineers" may be experts in their specialized corner as long as whatever problems develop are covered in their procedures manual and can be fixed by documented methods, but are sadly lacking in any understanding of how the rest of the world operates. The old-timers would look at the problem, and if it wasn't covered in the Official Manuals they would dig into the underlying level of technology to figure out (a) why the problem is occurring, and (b) what has to be done to fix it. They weren't perfect, and their ad-hoc procedures were all too frequently not documented, but when your system was on its back with all four paws in the air these were the engineers you wanted to show up at your door. >One week, we were in a large aircraft plant doing some control systems >revision during shutdown. One whole area of the plant kept blowing the main >breaker, putting down about 4 acres of plant floor. After twelve hours of >frustration, Red says "fuck, I''ll find the godamned short". He went to the >main panel, and threw the main switch to off. He then bypassed the main >fuse with triple ought copper(this is a 200 amp panel). He threw the switch >back on. In the distance, there was a muffled "BOOM". Throwing the switch >back off, and replacing the fuses, he muttered "Now we know what to bloody >well fix". If I were the company safety officer I would want to fire this guy. If I were the plant superintendent I would probably want to give him a medal. (Unless what blew up was my pet project, in which case I would agree with the safety officer.) >We seem to have wandered here. Is this still mainframe related? Are you forgetting that this is alt.folklore.computers, the home of thread drift? Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:43:58 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8j2hfe$etl$1@top.mitre.org> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 961857838 15285 128.29.251.13 (24 Jun 2000 14:43:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:43:58 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58481 glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com writes: >I've heard stories that certain companies own a fleet of refridgerated >trucks so that they can take a machine from the final test area, load >it onto the cooled truck, ship it to the customer, and install it, without >the machine ever having gone through an extreme temperature cycling. I >can't verify that it's true, though. Back in 1983 my shop took delivery of an IBM 3081 system which replaced one of our 3031 boxes. The installation went without *any* problems, due in part to the fact that the entire system had been tested on the factory floor, then moved into a climate-controlled moving van. The moving van came directly to our site; the result was that the trip on the sidewalk from where the van was parked into the building where our computer center was located was the first time that the boxes had ever been outside of a controlled environment. IBM apparently had a small cadre of (Allied?) moving vans and drivers whose sole job was to deliver large systems direct from the factory floor. The (well-trained) IBM CEs who were supervising the installation were quite happy to consult with the driver for assistance in getting each box into the computer room in the correct sequence; the driver probably had seen more 3081 installations than just about any IBMers. Joe Morris ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:56:07 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8j2i67$lat$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <49d3a14dffa__fake__address@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961858726 nnrp-09:11494 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:56:07 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58482 In article <49d3a14dffa__fake__address@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels writes: > We used to have the opposite problem in our old computer room. The > air conditioning was inadequate and the temperature was usually a > nice, cosy 27 celcius in there. Sometimes the air conditioning Something similar happened at a place I used to work. I think it was a simple case of equipment failure rather than vandalism, but the effect was similar, only hotter. The reported temperature (probably not the ambient one, but the one at which the equipment started tripping off) was 50oC; whatever, it was amusing that over this weekend the operators were having to turn up in shorts and tee-shirts in spite of it being early february with lots of snow on the ground! Chris. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 63 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:02:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.28.138 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 961858946 209.63.28.138 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:02:26 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:02:26 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58488 optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) writes: > Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? Amdahl had success selling in the university & MTS (michigan terminal system) market. In spring of '76 there was a great deal of consternation created when one of the large financial institutions in Hartford decided to replace one its many existing mainframes with an Amdahl (i believe it was consisered to be the first incursion at a "true-blue" customer). I don't think it was even a technical decision ... there was something going around about the customer being truely miffed by something the local branch manager had said or done. I got involved when somebody dreamed up the idea that the resource manager (first charged for "kernel" add-on piece of software, up until then there were charges for application software like compilers ... but the resource manager was the first kernel software to have a price-tag ... at $999/month license)) might not run as well on an Amdahl machine. Since the resource manager replaced existing kernel code with truely dynamic adaptive stuff ... it was hard to make the case that it faired better or worse on any hardware. An example was the unmodified, base kernel had a table of valid processor identifiers that was used at boot time to adjust various operating system parameters. The resource manager replaced the table with some code that timed sequences of instructions ... and operated based on the observed results. AMH=AMDAHL 70-10 AMDAHL CORP. STARTS BUSINESS AMH V/6 75-04?75-06 02 FIRST AMDAHL MACHINE, FIRST PCM CPU AMH V6-2 76-10 77-09 11 (1.05-1.15)*V6 WITH 32K BUFFER IBM 3033 77-03 78-03 12 VERY LARGE S/370+EF INSTRUCTIONS AMH V7 77-03 78-09 18 AMDAHL RESP. TO 3033 (1.5-1.7)* V6 ... PCM -- plug compatible machine I remember a seminar that Gene gave at MIT circa '73 or so. He was roundly bashed by a lot of the audience for where he was getting a lot of his funding & manufactoring. misc. ref: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#2 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#188 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#190 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.thml#191 There was another down=s9de to the dynamic nature ... that it could stick around for years and years as new machines were being introduced (automagically doing all its dynamic adaptive stuff). misc. ref. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#14 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@adcomsys.net, lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/ ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:25:57 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.7d X-Server-Date: 24 Jun 2000 15:35:07 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58492 In article , kragen@dnaco.net says... > In article , > Howard and Kelly Lute wrote: > >In article , jsaum@world.std.com > >says... > >> When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived > >> in a refrigerated trailer. > >Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? > > From http://www.amdahl.com/about/timeline.htm: > Founded in October 1970, the company's aims were to bring > competition to the large systems marketplace by providing > cost-efficient high-performance processors that outperformed the > competition. From the date of its first delivery, a 470V/6 installed > in June 1975 at NASA's New York Goddard Spaceflight Center, [hype > omitted] > > Methods: type "amdahl founding 1976" into Google. Find nothing useful > on first page of results. Search instead for "amdahl history". Notice > that hit #1 includes chunks of the above quote. Follow link. Make > pissy post to Usenet unjustifiably extrapolating original poster's > apparent inability to spend forty seconds Googling out to general > unfounded feelings of personal superiority over original poster. > > I'm sorry I'm so irritable today. > > I'm sorry I hurt your feelers...I roamed the streets and comp rooms all over the City in the 70's, worked for IBM, Potter and Comma (CDC). Gene was a friend of a friend of mine and tried to break into MANY of the markets through those years with a solid product and solid service. Stole lots of great FE's from the above. -- friend, --------------------- Howard and Kelly Lute He: Electronics Instructor, Terrible Mechanic, Worse Plumber She: Patient eBay: kell EBay Rating: 660 LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:54:59 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.138.150 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.138.150 X-Trace: 24 Jun 2000 10:55:00 -0700, 207.148.138.150 Lines: 76 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.138.150 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58497 On Fri, 23 Jun 00 09:32:15 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com>, > "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >>In article <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) >>writes: >> >>>>If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it >>>>might be a mainframe. >>> >>>And this one brought back many memories. Females didn't have >>>suit protection. I was the one who wore a huge afghan around >>>body and head. And there were times that I considered making >>>charwoman's gloves but managed to survive with juidicious >>>armpit usage. >> >>It's a myth that the machine room has to be ice-cold. > >I know that. But just try to tell those men that. The >same thing happened in the office area. > >> The >>temperature should be cool, but not necessarily freezing. >>I used to get into "thermostat wars" with people who believed >>in the myth too strongly. Wearing a parka in the machine room >>was just too much. > >Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a >threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the >hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been >my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and >TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that >was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. > >However, somebody forgot to turn off the A/Cs. It was so >cold in there, not even the manly types could stay for long. > >> >>It's much more important that the temperature not vary too much >>than that it be so damned cold. There's no reason why people >>and machines can't both be comfortable. None of the computers >>I ever worked with had cryogenic circuits, and I certainly don't. > >Another class of people who believe that myth are OBGyns (of >course, you probably have never had that pleasure :-)). > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Once spent most of one 96-hour week in an IBM machine room at their standard ~15C (~60F) and 40% humidity. We filtered the grounds out of a lot of their coffee, I can tell you. We were installing, running, tuning, benchmarking our database application on 9370s (at IBM's site) and VAXes (not at IBM). When we needed to load something from tape, we had to to go wait to borrow the rack-on-wheels, disable the drive on the system, halt the system, uncable the drive, and press continue; wheel the drive along the corridor, into the elevator, into the machine room, press halt, cable, enable, and continue; repeat in reverse once the tapes were loaded. Aaaaargh! What a week that was! After a week on hotel breakfasts, pizza and coffee, finishing up with an all-nighter, we blew a couple hundred dollars a head on a really good dinner in a really good restaurant; but I drew the line at going for the $300 bottles of wine: in our state, we wouldn't have appreciated it any more than the $50 bottles we settled for. Must have been the canny gene kicking in, overriding the payback instinct! Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:55:01 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.138.150 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.138.150 X-Trace: 24 Jun 2000 10:55:01 -0700, 207.148.138.150 Lines: 25 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.138.150 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58496 donald tees wrote: > No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. > Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. And the machine operators! We had a skinny little guy as a machine operator at one site. The manager asked him to run some cables from one side of the machine room to the other under the raised floor. So the operator said he'd do it right away. A while later, the manager wants to talk to the operator, so he wanders into the smallish machine room and looks around. Can't see him anywhere, so the manager calls out the operator's name. A floor tile flips up and crashes back on the floor, and the operator's head pops up. The manager freaks with the shock. The operator had decided it would be easier to pull the cables under the floor personally, than lift and replace tiles and feed the cables in the traditional manner. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### Message-ID: <39555AD4.F99E7005@altnews.com.au> From: Soulman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Cache-Post-Path: northcorp.internetnorth.com.au!unknown@c-5301-136.internetnorth.com.au X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:05:24 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.14.120.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 961895132 203.14.120.1 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:05:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:05:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58512 > There are few things as spooky as a machine room just after someone > has hit the EPO button (EPO=Emergency Power Off). Until this has > happened, you really don't know how loud absolute quiet is. My first day in the machine room as a trainee computer operator at the ripe old age of 17, we lost power and for some reason the battery backup failed as well. Spooky wasn't quite the word. The computer room was in the basement. No windows. So, all of a sudden it was pitch black! And I'll never forget the incredible multi-layered, super-quadrophonic total-surround-sound-Mr-Dolby-eat-your-heart-out descending note of about a million big heavy spinning things all going down at once. And then the screaming started (from the CE's room, when they realised what THEIR plans for the weekend had just become) Conversely, I think there's few things prettier than a computer room after lights-out. A veritable fairyland of glimmering LEDs and softly glowing terminals. Romantic, even :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:02:21 GMT References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b185.std.com Organization: Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!jsaum Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58499 In article , optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) wrote: >In article , jsaum@world.std.com >says... >> In article <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com wrote: >> >> >I've heard stories that certain companies own a fleet of refridgerated >> >trucks so that they can take a machine from the final test area, load >> >it onto the cooled truck, ship it to the customer, and install it, without >> >the machine ever having gone through an extreme temperature cycling. I >> >can't verify that it's true, though. >> >> When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived >> in a refrigerated trailer. >> >> - Jim Saum >> >Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? This was in July, 1976. IIRC, this was 470/V6 serial number 13. (Despite the unlucky number, the installation went well.) In the mid-1970s Gene Amdahl was a well-known figure in the mainframe world because of his prior work for IBM (in particular as one of the architects of S/360) but the Amdahl Corporation was an upstart that had just started delivering CPUs. At that point, there had already been a plug-compatible manufacturer (PCM) market for mainframe peripherals (mainly tape and disk drives) for some years, but not for CPUs. The PCM market for mainframe CPUs, however, was pioneered by Amdahl Corp. Shortly after the V6's installation, there was a service call on our IBM tape drives. The IBM CE came in, looked around the machine room, didn't see an IBM CPU, and ended up staring at the (non-IBM) CPU for a while before starting to work on the tape drives. Evidently it was his first visit to a shop with IBM peripherals but no IBM CPU. - Jim Saum ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:11:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.28.138 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 961881083 209.63.28.138 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:11:23 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:11:23 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-feeder.wcg.net!WCG!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58526 jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) writes: > had just started delivering CPUs. At that point, there had already > been a plug-compatible manufacturer (PCM) market for mainframe > peripherals (mainly tape and disk drives) for some years, but not for > CPUs. The PCM market for mainframe CPUs, however, was pioneered by > Amdahl Corp. someplace there is old article crediting the origins of the 360 PCM controller market with a project I had worked on as an undergraduate to replace a 2702 telecommunications with an interdata/3 and a wire-wrap channel attach board (that then grew into a box with an interdata/4 with multiple interdata/3s). tape & disk PCMs came later (lots of guys from san jose plant site went off and started them, similar to gene doing CPU PCM). there has also been claims that a lot of the characteristics of 3705s, NCP, and VTAM came about because of the appearance of that box and market. random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#30 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#37 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#12 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#63 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#36 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#37 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@adcomsys.net, lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net> <2D5D69D4CE0C1DBE.E12A1BEC1A7CC9CF.F3B29D62A2CA2CF2@lp.airnews.net> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 961881731 29703 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:22:11 GMT Lines: 85 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58509 Jay Maynard writes: > Yow. That's definitely unusual for IBM. That's a small enough system that > I'm surprised they didn't try swapping the whole box as a unit. For them to > lose a sale like that must have been really hard on someone's career... Hopefully somebody's career went down in flames on that deal - we'd had a 4331 running VM with assorted old peripherals (3420 tapes, 1403N1 printer, 2501 reader, and 3340 disks) and wanted to upgrade. We were operating with a limited budget (this was, after all, Academic Computing) and I'd lined up a 4381, some 3370's, and so forth for a price we could afford, and still have money left over to buy new software releases from IBM, since we were running an old VM (we wanted to go to SP5 or SP6, whichever was current then) as well as ancient compilers (F-level Fortran, Cobol, PL/I) and a scruffy assembler, all running in a DOS/VS Rel 32(!) VM. So we invited our IBM sales team in (two women - Cynthia A. and Nancy some- body) and we explained what we wanted to do, and that we wanted to purchase all this new software. They took notes and said they'd get back to us with a quote. The next thing we hear is that they went to the Financial VP and told him that we didn't know what we were doing and that we'd wind up costing the college a fortune in electricity and service contracts, and that he should pre-empt this by buying a 9370 config and software at a price somewhere near a quarter of a million bucks. Well, down in Academic Computing we were pretty steamed, but since we'd be getting a brand new box, we decided to go along with it. So we got the 9370, a gaggle of disks, some 3422 tapes, and so forth, along with all of the software. It arrived, got set up, and didn't work. There were all sorts of problems with the box. Meanwhile, there's no compilers for teaching classes. The guys from Endicott are dialed in to the box full-time, and there's a parade of folks coming through to try swapping parts. Somebody decides that I don't know VM, and they come down to "fix" the installation. They render the sys- tem unbootable until I restore from backups. Another group says I'm install- ing the COBOL service incorrectly, and offers to come do it for me. I say "fine, but you have to stay here until it's successfully applied - bring your sleeping bag". They don't believe me, but agree to stay. I brought my sleeping bag, and I kept the guy on-site for more than 48 hours in a row, until he gives up and leaves. During all this, IBM is clamoring for us to accept the box, saying "we will fix it - just accept it to make our paperwork people happy" and I say we will *not* accept it until it works. This winds up being a stalemate for more than half a year. Finally, I attend a DECUS Symposium, where IBM has a big booth in the DEXPO trade show area, and I grab a high-ranking guy from there and tell him my tale of woe. Of course, by this time we have a VAX and are running all of the language compilers we need on it (including RPGII, which isn't offered under VM - and we didn't want to maintain the DOS/VS guest on the IBM anyway, just for RPG). He sets up a meeting between me, my boss, and some IBM VP. IBM offers to take the 9370 system back, without admitting fault, and void the sale agree- ment, as long as we wouldn't talk about it for five years. And that is how IBM lost SPC Academic Computing as an account - we'd had IBM gear since the IBM 360. A brief history follows: o 360/25 (I think) o 360/40 (there may have been something in between) o 370/115 o 370/125 (with screwball MAI memory and a Selectric console that crashed the system if you opened the cover) o 370/135 o 370/138 o Dual 370/138's (split of Academic Computing from Data Processing) o Dual 4331's o 9370 >> Another group at SPC has something in a box that looks a lot like a 9370, >>but it claims to be some flavor of 390. It's running VSE/ESA and I don't >>know a lot about it. > > Probably a PC Server 300 or 500, or Multiprise 2000. I'll ask and report back. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 22:39:43 GMT Organization: Gorilla & Hamster Zoo of Toronto Lines: 20 Message-ID: <961886377.368100@elaine.furryape.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8j0d1v$akp$1@news.igs.net> <8j2g74$el9$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: elaine.furryape.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test60 (5 October 1997) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.furryape.com!gorilla@localhost X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.2.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!206.66.160.22!news-reader.ntrnet.net!news.onramp.ca!elaine.drink.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58518 In article <8j2g74$el9$1@top.mitre.org>, Joe Morris wrote: >At the risk of being called an "old fogey" (or worse), my opinion is that >far too many of today's so-called "engineers" may be experts in their >specialized corner as long as whatever problems develop are covered in >their procedures manual and can be fixed by documented methods, but are >sadly lacking in any understanding of how the rest of the world operates. Even worse than that, most 'engineers' are really just board swappers. That works ok if you've got a consistant fault, but it's no good for intermittant problems, or design problems. I've lost count of the number of times I've had someone in to fix a problem, they've swapped a board that 'might' be the problem, and had to call them back within a few hours of them leaving. Some problems have never been fixed, I had a server which would consistantly detect a disk failure in one of it's slots. Power cycling the server would make it think the disk was OK again, but by the time we gave up on it, we'd switched almost every component in the system, yet it never made any difference. ###### From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 24 Jun 2000 22:42:49 GMT Organization: Gorilla & Hamster Zoo of Toronto Lines: 9 Message-ID: <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: elaine.furryape.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test60 (5 October 1997) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.furryape.com!gorilla@localhost X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.2.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!news.onramp.ca!elaine.drink.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58520 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >The operator had decided it would be easier to pull the cables >under the floor personally, than lift and replace tiles and feed >the cables in the traditional manner. I company I used to work for had a machine room with a 8 foot raised floor for exactly this reason. It's the only underfloor cabling that I've seen that was actually reasonably tidy. ###### Message-ID: <39555E4A.463A37CE@altnews.com.au> From: Soulman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Cache-Post-Path: northcorp.internetnorth.com.au!unknown@c-5301-136.internetnorth.com.au X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 27 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:20:10 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.14.120.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 961896019 203.14.120.1 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:20:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:20:19 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58513 > There are few things as spooky as a machine room just after someone > has hit the EPO button (EPO=Emergency Power Off). Until this has > happened, you really don't know how loud absolute quiet is. My first day in the machine room as a trainee computer operator at the ripe old age of 17, we lost building power and for some reason the battery backup failed as well. Spooky wasn't quite the word. The computer room was in the basement. No windows. So, all of a sudden it was pitch black! And I'll never forget the incredible multi-layered, super-quadrophonic total-surround-sound-Mr-Dolby-eat-your-heart-out descending note of about a million big heavy spinning things all going down at once. And then the screaming started (from the CE's room, when they realised what THEIR plans for the weekend had just become) Apart from that, total silence. I think that anechoic materials had been used on the ceiling and walls as well, plus there wasn't a lot of empty space in there, so our voices seemed to be swallowed by the room, adding to the air of quiet. Really, really quiet. Conversely, I think there's few things prettier than a computer room after lights-out. A veritable fairyland of glimmering LEDs and softly glowing terminals. Romantic, even :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 13 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:25:39 EDT Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:25:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58545 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >there has also been claims that a lot of the characteristics of 3705s, >NCP, and VTAM came about because of the appearance of that box and >market. What characteristics are these? I read your references (always good reading) but found no clues. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:47:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.28.138 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 961901220 209.63.28.138 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:47:00 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:47:00 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.aros.net!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58529 kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) writes: > In article , > Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > >there has also been claims that a lot of the characteristics of 3705s, > >NCP, and VTAM came about because of the appearance of that box and > >market. > > What characteristics are these? I read your references (always good > reading) but found no clues. there was/is a very complex division of function between pu4 (aka ncp) and pu5 (aka vtam) with complex interface protocol ... significantly increasing the investment to create a 37xx/pu4/ncp PCM (especially compared to the interdata-based 270x PCM we created when I was undergraduate). the (referenced) implementation on S/1 had a lot more added value (than straight-forward 37xx PCM) since it did both pu4/ncp & pu5/vtam and used cross-domain protocol to talk to the mainframe (providing significant availability and performance improvements) misc. ref http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#70 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@adcomsys.net, lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 09:54:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8j4v1s$85b$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: /5jjuQQSDs4Dq7M1Rg+A2LGpJ9p9goY2x27g7bwGWyU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2000 12:47:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-30 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58565 In article , jsaum@world.std.com (Jim Saum) wrote: >In article , >optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) wrote: > >>In article , jsaum@world.std.com >>says... >>> In article <8ivmfb$1adm$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com wrote: >>> >>> >I've heard stories that certain companies own a fleet of refridgerated >>> >trucks so that they can take a machine from the final test area, load >>> >it onto the cooled truck, ship it to the customer, and install it, without >>> >the machine ever having gone through an extreme temperature cycling. I >>> >can't verify that it's true, though. >>> >>> When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived >>> in a refrigerated trailer. >>> >>> - Jim Saum >>> >>Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? > >This was in July, 1976. IIRC, this was 470/V6 serial number 13. >(Despite the unlucky number, the installation went well.) > >In the mid-1970s Gene Amdahl was a well-known figure in the mainframe >world because of his prior work for IBM (in particular as one of the >architects of S/360) but the Amdahl Corporation was an upstart that >had just started delivering CPUs. At that point, there had already >been a plug-compatible manufacturer (PCM) market for mainframe >peripherals (mainly tape and disk drives) for some years, but not for >CPUs. The PCM market for mainframe CPUs, however, was pioneered by >Amdahl Corp. > >Shortly after the V6's installation, there was a service call on our >IBM tape drives. The IBM CE came in, looked around the machine room, >didn't see an IBM CPU, and ended up staring at the (non-IBM) CPU for a >while before starting to work on the tape drives. Evidently it was his >first visit to a shop with IBM peripherals but no IBM CPU. I'm surprised that he didn't go home. One of the "conditions" of a 1620 contract with IBM was that this machine had to be in a room by itself. IBM wouldn't have honored the contract if the 1620 was in the same room as a PDP-10. Guess which machine ended up with not attention. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 09:51:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8j4ush$85b$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> X-Trace: Fo66ptaKoI6ZtvqReY1Vo4J+xLnbQEGs4K400QaKXq0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2000 12:45:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-30 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58568 In article <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com>, gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) wrote: >In article , >Brian Inglis wrote: >>The operator had decided it would be easier to pull the cables >>under the floor personally, than lift and replace tiles and feed >>the cables in the traditional manner. > >I company I used to work for had a machine room with a 8 foot >raised floor for exactly this reason. It's the only underfloor >cabling that I've seen that was actually reasonably tidy. Wow! I didn't know that there existed somebody who could think when designing machine rooms. That activity seemed to attract all the loser managers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3956479C.3CBA8FFB@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 65 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:57:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.120.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 961955869 63.15.120.41 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:57:49 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:57:49 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58559 Jay Maynard wrote: > On 23 Jun 2000 13:41:32 GMT, Joe Morris wrote: > >It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I > >was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine > >room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly > >died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse > >when you don't expect it. > > Try intermittent silence... > > One fine Friday afternoon, the building went dark. The outage only lasted > for a second or two, and I made it to the machine room in good time to see > operators watching things power up. Then, *blip*...and things got quiet, > then noisy...a minute later, *blip*... > > After the third blip, the operations manager ordered everything powered off > by hand until the situation settled down. The power went off hard about 25 > minutes later, and stayed off a good long time. Seems an automatic breaker > in the switching station just behind the building had gone nuts and kept > tripping out. A friend who worked for the power company said that, by the > time it was finished, a hunk of metal the size of a Volkswagen had been > slagged. Several years ago I was at a customer site up in Canada replacing an existing system based on several DG Eclipse processors, complete with "washing machine" disks with our current system based on networked PC's. Part of the new system was a "score board" mounted outside on a large pole. It was not working well although most of the rest of the system was. Eventually I got them to bring the sign inside, one line at a time (each line was a separate unit based on "flip dot" style displays and could be carried, just, by two people). Separately each line worked fine. Eventually I gave up and had them bring in the whole sign. I had the individual line units scattered about on the machine room floor interconnected by clip leads. (The problem turned out to be cold solder joints on the circuit cards in the individual signs.) Anyway, while testing this mess, I accidentally tripped over one of my clip leads and shorted out 110. This 110 was going through two levels of power strips with breakers and then to a rack mount unit with a GFI. Did any of these trip, no, the main UPS for the whole room tripped. OOPS! Silence. I immediately went around turning off the various computers in our new system while the customer technician went in to look at the UPS. Now a side story. A typical contract item in these systems the the day they are cut over for service from the previous system permanently. This is always a problem cause whenever something happens, usually due to operator error, the first thing they want to do is go back to the old system. This installation was no different. Anyway, back to our story. The customer technician recycles the UPS. It comes on for about two seconds and then drops out. He then recycles it again, it comes on for about a second and drops out. A third time and it stays on for about five seconds and drops out. Now every time he does this you can almost hear the equipment in the room protesting due to the high inrush currents and and resulting lower than normal voltages. Of course, if you recall, I had already shut off all the serious stuff on my side of the room. The fourth time the customer technician recycles the UPS it stays up. I turn my stuff back on again and its all well. The Eclipse based system......it never ran again. Cut-over complete :-) I'm saving this technique for the next time this becomes a problem ;-) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <39564AF8.8A6F136C@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <39555E4A.463A37CE@altnews.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:12:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.120.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 961956761 63.15.120.41 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:12:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:12:41 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58557 Soulman wrote: > The computer room was in the basement. No windows. So, all of a sudden > it was pitch black! And I'll never forget the incredible multi-layered, > super-quadrophonic total-surround-sound-Mr-Dolby-eat-your-heart-out > descending note of about a million big heavy spinning things all going > down at once. And then the screaming started (from the CE's room, when > they realised what THEIR plans for the weekend had just become) The college I went to received an UNIVAC ATHENA missile launch computer in 65 or so which was used as an under grad toy. I t was driven by a redundant pair of MG sets. When running they just gave out a loud rushing air noise, but when starting, sounded like a siren winding up. You could hear it all over campus, particularly at 3AM in the morning :-) (They didn't make a corresponding noise when turned off, unfortunately) > Conversely, I think there's few things prettier than a computer room > after lights-out. > A veritable fairyland of glimmering LEDs and softly glowing terminals. When working graveyard shift at this same school, when we'd run out the job queue, we would frequently turn off the machine room lights. As one who is very nearsighted, I would then take my glasses off. The lamps would become flickering orbs, quite pretty, and since this was the late 60's quite psychedelic as well :-) The 360/67 was good but the UNIVAC 1108 was the best. > Romantic, even :) My lips are sealed :-) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <961979642.378642@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-85.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:32:52 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 961979524 204.92.64.17 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:32:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:32:04 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58573 . . . and you shoulda seen the look on your face . . . priceless Rick "Brian Inglis" wrote in message news:v419lsg3ba7moqqnapf1eklrghbf7emfqv@4ax.com... > donald tees wrote: > > No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. > > Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. > And the machine operators! > > We had a skinny little guy as a machine operator at one site. > The manager asked him to run some cables from one side of the > machine room to the other under the raised floor. So the operator > said he'd do it right away. > > A while later, the manager wants to talk to the operator, so he > wanders into the smallish machine room and looks around. Can't > see him anywhere, so the manager calls out the operator's name. > > A floor tile flips up and crashes back on the floor, and the > operator's head pops up. The manager freaks with the shock. > > The operator had decided it would be easier to pull the cables > under the floor personally, than lift and replace tiles and feed > the cables in the traditional manner. > > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada > -- > Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) > use address above to reply ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 26 Jun 2000 13:38:45 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8j7md5$13v4$4@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58592 In <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net>, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:16:46 GMT, Terry Kennedy wrote: >>Jay Maynard writes: >>> Sure is...after all, you need 200 amp service to run any decent-sized >>> mainframe... >> Eh? The 3138 processor (370/138 CPU) used 60A 3-phase power (to run the >>motor/generator set). The 60A was just because of the surge at startup - if >>you used time-delay fuses instead of circuit breakers you could go down to >>40A or so. And more powerful boxes (high-end 4381's) drew even less current >>(though of course they were newer). > >Yeah, though one guy has a 4381-92E at his house complete with peripherals; >the CPU didn't need three-phase power, but the DASD (3380s) did. > >This begs the question, of course: Does a 9370/9371-class system qualify? >Beats the heck out of me, though I'm trying to lay hands on one... Well, I think a 9370/9371 is a mainframe, although it is a bit obscure. I used to work with a guy who had one in his kitchen in Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, I don't know if it required three phase power or not (I'm thinking it didn't but I'm VERY fuzzy on that.). I remember that the 9370s had some specialized DASD. Was it possible to run MVS on them? Were they S/370 architecture only? I'm thinking that a 4381-92E may have been an ESA capable machine, although I'm not for certain. Do the 3380s use synchronous motors? That's one application where three-phase power is very useful. Another reason for using it is that it makes the electrical filtering process (part of the conversion from AC to DC) much easier. Of course, 400Hz also makes that easier, too. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 26 Jun 2000 15:29:14 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <0DA67986A5D48E3A.56254E206D5E7987.5A260E7AFD650A1F@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <5B428477D5BB881C.2962B738EE19BD51.1FFCEB7649A6D402@lp.airnews.net> <8j7md5$13v4$4@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Jun 26 10:29:14 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !b*W)1k-XX#*uZW (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58555 On 26 Jun 2000 13:38:45 GMT, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >I remember that the 9370s had some specialized DASD. Was it possible to >run MVS on them? Were they S/370 architecture only? I'm thinking that a >4381-92E may have been an ESA capable machine, although I'm not for certain. The 9370s and 9371s used FBA DASD, and so wouldn't run MVS; they typically ran VM of some flavor, with VSE guests if CICS was needed. I think they were 370 only. The 4381-9xE series was ESA/370-capable. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 10:19:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8ja99k$4ec$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: xen8BYURuQ9sAWneSmkB/7rE9K2wDLu7NrVhcfd5v6U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 2000 13:13:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-176 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58630 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Fri, 23 Jun 00 09:32:15 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >Once spent most of one 96-hour week in an IBM machine room at >their standard ~15C (~60F) and 40% humidity. We filtered the >grounds out of a lot of their coffee, I can tell you. I think I'd be wearing my snowpants. > >We were installing, running, tuning, benchmarking our database >application on 9370s (at IBM's site) and VAXes (not at IBM). > >When we needed to load something from tape, we had to to go wait >to borrow the rack-on-wheels, disable the drive on the system, >halt the system, uncable the drive, and press continue; wheel the >drive along the corridor, into the elevator, into the machine >room, press halt, cable, enable, and continue; repeat in reverse >once the tapes were loaded. Aaaaargh! Wait a minute. You had to bring the machine to the tape? DEC let people bring the tapes to the machine in the early days I don't know what those VMSers insisted upon; the last time I dealt with a VMS tape, I found that VMS had great difficulty reading a 2400' 1600BPI tape in less than 6 hours. Another reason it was senile. > >What a week that was! After a week on hotel breakfasts, pizza and >coffee, finishing up with an all-nighter, we blew a couple >hundred dollars a head on a really good dinner in a really good >restaurant; but I drew the line at going for the $300 bottles of >wine: in our state, we wouldn't have appreciated it any more than >the $50 bottles we settled for. Must have been the canny gene >kicking in, overriding the payback instinct! Well, of course it was that gene. Everybody knows that when the clouds clear, the managers signing the expense form will forget the trouble they were in (since they're now in trouble with accounts payable). JMF had a story about putting a $300 phone bill on his expense report. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:13:50 +0100 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 962047254 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58661 In article , "brucepbarrett" writes: > Spooky is when you are sitting at the console 3 oclock in the morning and > you know you are the only person in the building and you sense movement > behind you. Scared you check only to find that the lower roller of the > print ribbon fell out and went rolling neatly across the floor. Scary is when you've been in the lab for far too long are are starting to have minor hallucinations, and in the corner of your eye something sticks its head around the lab door and waves some antennae at you. Not fun. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "[SF is not about predicting the future.] | Work: dg@tao-group.com | We are not prophets; in fact, if we were | Play: dgiven@iname.com | much worse at it, we'd be economists." --- +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ Stephen Dedman ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNLT Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:12:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.29.113 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 962050377 209.63.29.113 (Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:12:57 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:12:57 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58654 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > someplace there is old article crediting the origins of the 360 PCM > controller market with a project I had worked on as an undergraduate > to replace a 2702 telecommunications with an interdata/3 and a > wire-wrap channel attach board (that then grew into a box with an > interdata/4 with multiple interdata/3s). tape & disk PCMs came later > (lots of guys from san jose plant site went off and started them, > similar to gene doing CPU PCM). > > there has also been claims that a lot of the characteristics of 3705s, > NCP, and VTAM came about because of the appearance of that box and > market. > > random refs: > > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#30 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#37 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#12 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#63 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#36 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#37 misc. more references on sna, pcm, CICS, some from previous threads & some repeats http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15 unit record & other controllers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#16 unit record & other controllers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#52 Measuring Virtual Memory http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#54 How Do the Old Mainframes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#14 characters http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#30 interdata and perkin/elmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#37 interdata & perkin/elmer machines http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#39 Mainframes & Unix http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#9 cics http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#15 OSes commerical, history http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#33 cics ... from posting from another list http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#34 cics ... from posting from another list http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#49 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#106 IBM Mainframe Model Numbers--then and now? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#12 Old Computers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#63 System/1 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#64 Old naked woman ASCII art http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#66 System/1 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#67 System/1 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#189 Internet Credit Card Security http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#195 Anti trust suits--IBMs' compared to Microsoft http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#234 Computer of the century http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#16 Computer of the century http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#50 APPN vs TCP/IP http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#90 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#0 "Mainframe" Usage http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#36 Interdata, Perkin-Elmer, et al. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#37 Interdata, Perkin-Elmer, et al. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com, finger for pgp key http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8ivkvf$58q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8ivpec$n27$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 962062314 6733 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:31:55 GMT Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58618 David Given writes: > Scary is when you've been in the lab for far too long are are starting to > have minor hallucinations, and in the corner of your eye something sticks > its head around the lab door and waves some antennae at you. Not fun. I never had those, but after 15 or 16 hours alone in the machine room terminating cables, I used to start getting auditory hallucinations. That's when I knew it was time to go home and crash. I think it's caused by the loud noise of the systems and air conditioners. Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 28 Jun 2000 19:39:00 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u1.farm.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u1.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58719 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: : donald tees wrote: : > And requires at least least a fifteen ton air conditioner. : > Donald : Ah, that sounds good. It is a mainframe if it needs a specially built : room all to itself. Computers, like diamonds, cost significantly more the larger they become. Likening a mainframe to a multi-carat diamond and a PC to a sub-carat diamond sort of equates the two in financial terms. Perhaps a mint condition Cray 1 is akin to the Hope Diamond of mainframes? Maybe not. :) Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 28 Jun 2000 19:50:01 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: u1.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u1.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58721 [...] : : It might be a mainframe if... : : ----------------------------- If it crashes and that means the end of the work day, it might be a mainframe. If it uses a 36 or 60 bit word, it might be a mainframe. If "IPL" is necessarly to get it running, then it might be a mainframe. If there are 20-50 terminals connected to it and they are all RS-232 based, then it might be a mainframe. Eric ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 28 Jun 2000 23:31:30 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 9 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Jun 28 18:31:31 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Wf8G1k-W0AJNcK (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!nntp.giganews.com!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58708 On 28 Jun 00 15:14:38 -0800, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely >a mainframe. Coax, yes; twinax, not necessarily. I wouldn't call the System/3x or AS/400 series mainframes, and they're all twinax-connected (well, at least the dedicated terminals are; AS/400s can also use native ASCII terminals and, amazingly enough, Macs as though they were 5250 terminals, including as the system console if you get the right CPU feature). ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962245656.89982@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 17 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:27:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962245674 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:27:54 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:27:54 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58733 In article , Jay Maynard wrote: >On 28 Jun 00 15:14:38 -0800, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely >>a mainframe. > >Coax, yes; twinax, not necessarily. I wouldn't call the System/3x or AS/400 P'raps. Some of the Wang monstrosities with dual co-ax terminal connections didn't come close to being mainfraims, IMAO. Wang OIS, anyone? (Admittedly th closest I came to these was in the fact we had a connection from the ugly thing to a VAX via an IBM bisync serial link. ) -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 21 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:10:39 EDT Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:10:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58740 In article <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >If it uses a 36 or 60 bit word, it might be a mainframe. Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? >If "IPL" is necessarly to get it running, then it might be a mainframe. IPL is necessary to get almost any computer running, with the exception of those with their OS in ROM. >If there are 20-50 terminals connected to it and they are all RS-232 >based, then it might be a mainframe. Or it might just be a VAX. (You don't think of VAXen as mainframes, do you?) -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: Marvin E. Kurtti Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:10:16 -0500 Organization: MK Computers Lines: 3 Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <395ab2bd$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30.1784 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58736 .It's a mainframe if you can walk among it. marv ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 29 Jun 2000 17:25:10 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8jg0pm$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58723 jchausler wrote: : donald tees wrote: : > No no no! The air conditioner is for the beer and machine operators. : > Damned mainframes can't run without a place to hide the beer. : And it was always best to keep the beer just adjacent to where the : AC forced the air under the false floor cause that was the coldest : spot. Of course this would obstruct the airflow to the machines, but : what was important anyway, happy machines or happy operators..... ^^^^^^^^^ Which leads to another, "it might be a mainframe if" statement: If the support staff is called "operators" rather than SysAdmins as in the Unix world, it might be a mainframe. Eric ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 29 Jun 2000 17:42:47 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 6 Message-ID: <6F43776D44DBAC12.48FBEC21A30F5DF1.8FE59E15D3570BC1@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8jg0pm$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Jun 29 12:42:47 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Y>kf1k-X=FL0#_ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.germany.net!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58709 On 29 Jun 2000 17:25:10 GMT, Eric Chomko wrote: >If the support staff is called "operators" rather than SysAdmins as in the >Unix world, it might be a mainframe. That should be "If the support staff has several different titles instead of just "sysadmin", it might be a mainframe." ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 29 Jun 2000 17:46:28 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8jg21k$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8i NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58717 Joe Morris wrote: : jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: : >Once, the whole machine room had to be shut down due to a : >threat of a hurricane. The weathermen cancelled the : >hurricane, much to my consternation..it would have been : >my first one. So I went in to work (about 4:00) JMF and : >TW were there, too. Not a single roar in the room; that : >was one of the _spookiest_ times in my life. : It's amazing how loud silence can be. Back in Ye Olde Days when I : was the manager of a mainframe computer center I was in the machine : room talking to my operations supervisor when all the machines suddenly : died: having all the systems off is spooky enough, but it's worse : when you don't expect it. : (It turned out that some brain-dead body in Facilities had brought in : an equally brain-dead technician to work on the fire alarm system : without even bothering to tell the supervisor about it. This klutz : managed to trip the circuit that kills the computers, network head-end : equipment, the UPS boxes, and all of the air conditioning systems.) Not a spooky story but a funny one regarding computer mainframe shut down. A good friend and coworker that happened to be on the same softball team as me finally hit a home run after years of trying. Now this guy was a singles hitter at best as he was all of 5' 10" maybe and was less than 150lbs. Well, about an hour before game time a week later, while still at work, this guy's telling everyone how he's going deep again! Hands clapping and then suddenly the silence. Yep, the back of one his hand hits the off switch of a SEL/Gould/Encore 32/77. All the heads in the room turn to finally pay attention to this guy, by now red as a beet and a lot less cocky than he was about 2 seconds ago. I think we went 1 for 4 that day with an infield hit. Eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Message-ID: <395b8ff6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.19zf/19zf Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:05:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 962301945 199.224.125.106 (Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:05:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:05:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58730 In <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com>, on 06/28/00 at 03:14 PM, "Charlie Gibbs" said: >If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely a >mainframe. Huh? I have 3 PC's networked using 10Base2 (thin coax) ethernet. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- Headline: Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 29 Jun 2000 19:25:48 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <8jg7rs$2onr$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8jg0pm$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962312711 nnrp-07:24642 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 19:25:48 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newspeer.highwayone.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58792 In article <8jg0pm$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko writes: > If the support staff is called "operators" rather than SysAdmins as in the > Unix world, it might be a mainframe. We had both; the operators did things like change tapes, collate printouts and do various admin things. My lot, the sysadmins, did other stuff like account maintenance, software installation, system planning and doing sysgens. There were frequent arguments from both camps about who should have root access. I wasn't interested in all that political stuff so part of my personal armoury were a standard boot tape and a couple of screwdrivers to deal with particularly troublesome systems. And operators. Chris. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395c0710$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 29 Jun 2000 19:33:52 -0800 X-Trace: 29 Jun 2000 19:33:52 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58820 In article , Kragen Sitaker wrote: >In article <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, >Eric Chomko wrote: >>If it uses a 36 or 60 bit word, it might be a mainframe. >Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? Midis. 60? CDC machines. I thought mainframes were 32 bit or 36 bit for Univacs. >>If there are 20-50 terminals connected to it and they are all RS-232 >>based, then it might be a mainframe. > >Or it might just be a VAX. (You don't think of VAXen as mainframes, do you?) What's a VAX 9000? Not that I am certain myself (I know that DEC tried to pass it off as a super w/o success). ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 30 Jun 2000 16:29:53 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8jihu1$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8it3rb$el3$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1051.208T2631T5895552@sky.bus.com> <8i NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58779 Kragen Sitaker wrote: : In article , : Howard and Kelly Lute wrote: : >In article , jsaum@world.std.com : >says... : >> When we took delivery of an Amdahl 470/V6 system in 1976, it arrived : >> in a refrigerated trailer. : >Date Check...??? 1976?! Amdahl anything? : From http://www.amdahl.com/about/timeline.htm: : Founded in October 1970, the company's aims were to bring : competition to the large systems marketplace by providing : cost-efficient high-performance processors that outperformed the : competition. From the date of its first delivery, a 470V/6 installed : in June 1975 at NASA's New York Goddard Spaceflight Center, [hype : omitted] I would have never believe it unless I saw on the site as well. Where in God's name is "NASA's New York Goddard Spaceflight Center?!" I am intimately aware of NASA's Maryland Goddard Spaceflight Center, but have never, ever, heard of NY GSFC. There is a Goddard Space Scienec Insitute, also in Maryland a ways from MD GSFC. But NASA in NY, and GSFC in NY at that. : I'm sorry I'm so irritable today. But not more confused than am I about your finding. Eric ###### Message-ID: <395CD2F5.1DBF36F4@thinkage.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <395c0710$1@news.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:03:49 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962384749 192.102.11.4 (Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:05:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:05:49 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58756 > In article , > Kragen Sitaker wrote: > >In article <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, > >Eric Chomko wrote: > >>If it uses a 36 or 60 bit word, it might be a mainframe. > >Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? > > >>If there are 20-50 terminals connected to it and they are all RS-232 > >>based, then it might be a mainframe. > > > >Or it might just be a VAX. (You don't think of VAXen as mainframes, do you?) Actually I generally do. I watched a computer science prof giving a tour to some visitors of our machine room once. He pointed at the Honeywell DPS-8/49 and disparagingly called it a mainframe, and then pointed proudly to the VAX 780 and called it a super mini. The two systems cost the same, took the same footprint of floorspace, ran did computations at about the same speed. The VAX had more memory at that time, and more disk space I concluded that the VAX was a mainframe. There was of course a big difference in the operating systems and how the I/O was organized. The VAX could run larger individual programs, but the Gcos system supported two to three times the number of concurrent users. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:24:36 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58778 Kragen Sitaker wrote: : In article <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, : Eric Chomko wrote: : >If it uses a 36 or 60 bit word, it might be a mainframe. : Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? Oh no, they are Midis, not to be confused with the music interface. : >If "IPL" is necessarly to get it running, then it might be a mainframe. : IPL is necessary to get almost any computer running, with the exception : of those with their OS in ROM. Yes, but the minis that I used required a hex keypad entry small boot program. : >If there are 20-50 terminals connected to it and they are all RS-232 : >based, then it might be a mainframe. : Or it might just be a VAX. (You don't think of VAXen as mainframes, do : you?) Vaxs, short of the miniVAXs, were mainframes or perhaps Midis. But I don't recall seeing 50 terminals on a VAX, not to say that they couldn't. And, the qualifier "might" did appear in each item above, as the terms mini, mainframe and midi do blur lines when trying to fit them neatly, as I discovered in a paper on the subject a little over 20 years ago in college. Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:32:48 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8jilk0$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <395ab2bd$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58777 Eugene Miya wrote: : In article <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, : Eric Chomko wrote: : >Computers, like diamonds, cost significantly more the larger they become. : >Likening a mainframe to a multi-carat diamond and a PC to a sub-carat : >diamond sort of equates the two in financial terms. : Except for the fact that until the advent of the PC, more expensive : computers were getting smaller. A Cray 4 CPU is smaller than than Cray : 3 CPU which is smaller than a Cray 2 CPU which is smaller than a Cray 1 CPU. : The disk is another question. Then these newer systems were becoming more white (or blue) in color and away from the gray and yellow. So my diamond analogy still holds! And the newer technology becoming finer can also be considered like a superior cut, so I yet one attribute ahead in regards to the four Cs of diamonds. : >Perhaps a mint condition Cray 1 is akin to the Hope Diamond of mainframes? : >Maybe not. :) : Depends what you want to do with it. I saw the English crown jewels : last week. A lot of value is in utility. Jewels don't really have much : utility. Our museum has 3 Cray-1 chassies. I like the Cray-2 chassie : more (clear plastic windows into the tank), but I am biased having : worked on it. If one wants to buy a Cray-1, a person will tend to have : a 7 figure income as a minimum, and their run $10K and more in aesthetic : but not runnable condition. People just seem to like to sit on the seat. Damn yuppie collectors! : The place to buy is Tony's Cole's www.memorybilia.com, but if you have : to ask the price, you can't afford. You can get boards for much less. : This all creates problems for Museums. Yes, there is only one Hope Diamond and any rich fool can own a Cray, so I stand corrected. : It can be the Hope diamond on MWF; and not on TTS. The Hope Diamond is unique and is a proper name. The Cray 1 is a series name not a single name. : But a Cray is not a mainframe. Oh no? I guess being a supercomputer makes it not? Or is it the fact that it tended to be single user? Eric ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:36:53 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8jilrl$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <395ab2bd$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58789 Marvin E. Kurtti wrote: : .It's a mainframe if you can walk among it. I don't know I was inside a tape archive unit a few weeks past, a silo they call it. It felt like it was HAL in 2001. It wasn't a mainframe. Eric : marv ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:50:49 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8jimlp$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqvn7$3p0$1@news.igs.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8jg0pm$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8jg7rs$2on NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58786 Chris Hedley wrote: : In article <8jg0pm$1eh@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, : Eric Chomko writes: : > If the support staff is called "operators" rather than SysAdmins as in the : > Unix world, it might be a mainframe. : We had both; the operators did things like change tapes, collate : printouts and do various admin things. My lot, the sysadmins, did : other stuff like account maintenance, software installation, system : planning and doing sysgens. : There were frequent arguments from both camps about who should have : root access. I wasn't interested in all that political stuff so : part of my personal armoury were a standard boot tape and a couple : of screwdrivers to deal with particularly troublesome systems. And : operators. Not necessarily in that order either I take it? As a lowly programmer being at the operator's whims was a constant pain, especially if they were ornery. One gal had the nasty habit of bringing down the system for back-ups when she wanted to and not sending out a broadcast message to the effect that the system will come down in five minutes, etc. I broke her of that habot one day by scheduling a customer demo at precisely the wrong (right) time. A new (existing) policy came into effect after that incident about forewarning people when the system was to come down. Eric ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 01 Jul 00 13:11:23 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com> <395b8ff6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-277.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58851 In article <395b8ff6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) writes: >In <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com>, on 06/28/00 >at 03:14 PM, "Charlie Gibbs" said: > >>If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely a >>mainframe. > >Huh? I have 3 PC's networked using 10Base2 (thin coax) ethernet. But they're full computers, not just terminals. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 00 07:41:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8jn5uo$q20$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> <8j4ush$85b$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com> X-Trace: j2fMCKOiHMoyx6s3tn8nKjuMGa6Po/dT20wseRkEqu0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 10:36:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-118 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58869 In article , kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: >In article <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com>, >Brian Inglis wrote: >>On Sun, 25 Jun 00 09:51:44 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>Wow! I didn't know that there existed somebody who could >>>think when designing machine rooms. That activity seemed >>>to attract all the loser managers. > >I haven't been able to read BAH's posts for quite a while --- they >never show up on my NNTP server, isp-east.usenetserver.com. What's her >NNTP-Posting-Host? OK, Kragen. Here is the post from the ISP I usually use that I e-mailed you about this morning. Please reply (only Kragen, please...nobody else) if you see it. If you don't see this post, you may ignore it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <395ab2bd$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jilk0$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395d4088$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:51:20 -0800 X-Trace: 30 Jun 2000 17:51:20 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58936 In article <8jilk0$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote: >Eugene Miya wrote: >: In article <8jdk8k$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, >: Eric Chomko wrote: >: >Computers, like diamonds, cost significantly more the larger they become. >: >Likening a mainframe to a multi-carat diamond and a PC to a sub-carat >: >diamond sort of equates the two in financial terms. > >: Except for the fact that until the advent of the PC, more expensive >: computers were getting smaller. A Cray 4 CPU is smaller than than Cray >: 3 CPU which is smaller than a Cray 2 CPU which is smaller than a Cray 1 CPU. >: The disk is another question. > >Then these newer systems were becoming more white (or blue) in color and >away from the gray and yellow. So my diamond analogy still holds! And the >newer technology becoming finer can also be considered like a superior >cut, so I yet one attribute ahead in regards to the four Cs of diamonds. That's an interesting addition. I also refer your to my acquaintance's Neal's book The Diamond Age. There are other issues which you might be aware, but I am not at liberty to discuss. >: >Perhaps a mint condition Cray 1 is akin to the Hope Diamond of mainframes? >: >Maybe not. :) > >: If one wants to buy a Cray-1, a person will tend to have >: a 7 figure income as a minimum, and their run $10K and more in aesthetic >: but not runnable condition. People just seem to like to sit on the seat. > >Damn yuppie collectors! True, that's a problem. I feel like Indiana Jones in the 3rd film. Sometimes very frustating. >: The place to buy is Tony's Cole's www.memorybilia.com, but if you have >: to ask the price, you can't afford. You can get boards for much less. >: This all creates problems for Museums. > >Yes, there is only one Hope Diamond and any rich fool can own a Cray, >so I stand corrected. Well, your correction is right in that modern machines are aggregations to achieve performance. Previously, it was technology which gave it. >: It can be the Hope diamond on MWF; and not on TTS. > >The Hope Diamond is unique and is a proper name. The Cray 1 is a series >name not a single name. You mean models and serial numbers and the like. Implementations. >: But a Cray is not a mainframe. > >Oh no? I guess being a supercomputer makes it not? Or is it the fact that >it tended to be single user? No. Yes, generally. Most tend to be used multi-user, but for some of my work, I can use it for brief period stand alone. Not as fun as that might sound (can be frustating). ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:24:35 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.142.89 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.142.89 X-Trace: 30 Jun 2000 20:24:38 -0700, 207.148.142.89 Lines: 40 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.142.89 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58900 On 28 Jun 2000 19:50:01 GMT, Eric Chomko wrote: >[...] >: : It might be a mainframe if... >: : ----------------------------- > >If it crashes and that means the end of the work day, it might be a >mainframe. True 20 years ago, but not 10 years ago. >If it uses a 36 or 60 bit word, it might be a mainframe. > >If "IPL" is necessarly to get it running, then it might be a mainframe. > >If there are 20-50 terminals connected to it and they are all RS-232 >based, then it might be a mainframe. Nah, that's a PDP-11; if it's fewer, it might be a VAX; more, it's a RISC box. Most mainframes had >100 (up to several thousand) coax attached terminals in clusters; remotely attached clusters and other systems would hang off telco leased lines with massive DSUs. Some of the remote lines used RS-232 interfaces of the full 25 wire sync variety (try wiring a null modem including secondary channel and clock pins for amusement some time) and never exceeding 25 feet (10 feet was more reliable -- they worked as if the minimum allowed voltage was generated on the pins). You'd be lucky to see a mainframe with more than a very few async RS-232 terminals connected in any manner -- they overloaded the line scanners like crazy. YMMV if you were not true blue! >Eric Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:24:37 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <395229F5.CBAFC491@earthlink.net> <8ivlv4$1adm$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> <8j4ush$85b$6@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.142.89 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.142.89 X-Trace: 30 Jun 2000 20:24:40 -0700, 207.148.142.89 Lines: 32 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.142.89 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58835 On Sun, 25 Jun 00 09:51:44 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com>, > gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) wrote: >>In article , >>Brian Inglis wrote: >>>The operator had decided it would be easier to pull the cables >>>under the floor personally, than lift and replace tiles and feed >>>the cables in the traditional manner. >> >>I company I used to work for had a machine room with a 8 foot >>raised floor for exactly this reason. It's the only underfloor >>cabling that I've seen that was actually reasonably tidy. > >Wow! I didn't know that there existed somebody who could >think when designing machine rooms. That activity seemed >to attract all the loser managers. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. That's about the third or fourth site I've ever heard of with that arrangement -- a two storey computer room. I heard they relied on the 8 foot tile jacks at 2 foot intervals to carry the load. Must have been weird working between all those jacks, underneath all that weight. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> <8j4ush$85b$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 15 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 01:15:22 EDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 05:15:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58922 In article <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote: >On Sun, 25 Jun 00 09:51:44 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>Wow! I didn't know that there existed somebody who could >>think when designing machine rooms. That activity seemed >>to attract all the loser managers. I haven't been able to read BAH's posts for quite a while --- they never show up on my NNTP server, isp-east.usenetserver.com. What's her NNTP-Posting-Host? -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <395ab2bd$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jilk0$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395d4088$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 30 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 01:21:12 EDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 05:21:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58940 In article <395d4088$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >In article <8jilk0$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, >Eric Chomko wrote: >>Eugene Miya wrote: >>: If one wants to buy a Cray-1, a person will tend to have >>: a 7 figure income as a minimum, and their run $10K and more in aesthetic >>: but not runnable condition. People just seem to like to sit on the seat. >> >>Damn yuppie collectors! > >True, that's a problem. > >I feel like Indiana Jones in the 3rd film. >Sometimes very frustating. The good news is that the damn yuppie collectors will keep the Crays out of the scrap crushers for a few decades. Then, when they die, some of them will leave them to museums, especially if they get joy from visiting the museums during their lives. Damn yuppie collectors are, ultimately, your friends. ;) The software is likely to be the hard thing to keep intact, as most of it won't last those decades. If you can get in good with the damn yuppie collectors, you may be able to read it and copy it for archival onto Kodak CD-Rs. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 30 Jun 2000 22:21:47 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 30 Jun 2000 22:27:06 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.yosemite.net!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!rn.area.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58894 >> Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? Eric Chomko writes: > Oh no, they are Midis, not to be confused with the music interface. I don't know where this "midi" term came from, as it's not one of the customary classifications. And I don't have any idea what criteria you're setting for the dividing lines between minis, "midis", and mainframes. So I'll pose a question: Was the IBM 360/50 a mainframe? If so, the PDP-10 (except for the 2020) was definitely a mainframe. The PDP-10, as introduced in 1968, was comparable in size, power dissipation, and environmental requirements, and had better performance. If you *don't* consider the 360/50 to be a mainframe, I suggest that your criteria must be fairly bizarre. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <0gg75.10735$I96.311031@news-east.usenetserver.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 12 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 02:36:29 EDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 06:36:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58941 In article <0gg75.10735$I96.311031@news-east.usenetserver.com>, Kragen Sitaker wrote: > (something unbelievably stupid) Please don't bother to reply to that post; let me blush in peace. I just canceled it, but I know some newsservers these days don't support cancels. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <962393579.256248@server16.cable.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962454375.913064@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 34 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:26:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962454394 203.96.152.26 (Sun, 02 Jul 2000 00:26:34 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 00:26:34 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58887 In article <962393579.256248@server16.cable.com>, P Linnane wrote: >With the exception of a bare 750, which stood at perfect standing coffee >table height (and unlike a certain mfrs. early model printer . . .), the >(higher model) "VAXen" I've encountered certainly meet the physical >size/weight/power/cooling requirements. I also tend not to think of native >clustering as being a mini-computer attribute. Perhaps they deserve their >own classification ? I think the answer to that question is, "it depends." The site I sysprogged at until '91 operated a CI VAXcluster with three main CPUs (6, 4 and 1 MIPS), two HSCs, 18 460 and 600 MB disks and three 9-track tape drives. This occupied about 20 cabinets, or about 40 feet long if you joined all the cabinets together side to side. Ten of those cabinets were CPUs, CI controllers, I/O controllers etc, not actual peripheral devices. I haven't tried to count the terminal servers and other network gear. I have difficulty calling something that is 40 feet long, 20 excluding the actual disk and tape drives, requiring 100 kVA worth of three-phase power and computer room aircon, a minicomputer. And this was a pretty basic VAXcluster; more than an order of magnitude smaller in every respect than what was possible for VAXes and VAXclusters at the time. On the other hand, I wouldn't have any problem at all calling a configuration consisting of one of those processors (even the biggest), with a cabinet or two of directly connected disks and a tape drive a minicomputer. The poor little 11/730 that sat in the corner of a client's machine room, dwarfed by the IBM (or Amdahl, I forget) dinosaur surrounding it most definitely was not a mainframe... -- don ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 2 Jul 2000 11:53:16 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8jnafc$a55$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <395b8ff6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com> <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: libra.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58957 In article <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley wrote: >In article <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com>, > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >>>>If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely a >>>>mainframe. >>> >>>Huh? I have 3 PC's networked using 10Base2 (thin coax) ethernet. >> >> But they're full computers, not just terminals. > >And the cable's the wrong impedance and topology. OTOH, when I had >less nous about networking, I confess that I *did* try to use 75ohm >3270 cabling for an ethernet connection... oops. I've seen a manual for a thinnet transceiver that had a switch to set the impedence, so you could use 75ohm or 93ohm cable instead of 50ohm if that was what you had installed. -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce. ###### From: wiss@eelwing.arda (Jonas Wissting) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 17:06:24 +0200 Organization: Utfors AB Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <395b8ff6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com> <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8jnafc$a55$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: md46911a2.utfors.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: yggdrasil.utfors.se 962550378 10873 212.105.17.162 (2 Jul 2000 15:06:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utfors.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 15:06:18 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.utfors.se!luthien.arda!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58948 In article <8jnafc$a55$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) writes: > In article <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, > Chris Hedley wrote: >>In article <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com>, >> "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >>>>>If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely a >>>>>mainframe. >>>> >>>>Huh? I have 3 PC's networked using 10Base2 (thin coax) ethernet. >>> >>> But they're full computers, not just terminals. >> >>And the cable's the wrong impedance and topology. OTOH, when I had >>less nous about networking, I confess that I *did* try to use 75ohm >>3270 cabling for an ethernet connection... oops. > > I've seen a manual for a thinnet transceiver that had a switch to set the > impedence, so you could use 75ohm or 93ohm cable instead of 50ohm if that > was what you had installed. But the tranciver has to be hi-impedance. A voltage-sence reciver and current-driving transmiter. So the cabel-impedance is of no major importance to the tranciver, as long as you use the same cabel-impedance. Or am I wrong? Jonas -- http://wiss.unx.nu http://linux.unx.nu Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:50:29 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 64 Message-ID: <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zlNFbGK6IWpAY9KhWI6CWel2n9QHbvy/N0r1giub5Ps= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 15:50:44 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58953 Eric Smith wrote: > > >> Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? > > Eric Chomko writes: > > Oh no, they are Midis, not to be confused with the music interface. > > I don't know where this "midi" term came from, as it's not one of the > customary classifications. The first time I ran across the term was in "Computer Engineering, a Digital Perscpective". The volume may be found at: http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering and is a very good read. > Was the IBM 360/50 a mainframe? If so, the PDP-10 (except for the > 2020) was definitely a mainframe. Chapter 21 of the above is a good introduction to the development of the -10. The original intent was to produce a simple machine to be used for timesharing; interestingly, one "mainframe" concept the designers wished to avoid was the use of programmable I/O channels. Personally, I draw the "mainframe" "line" at whether the system has integral programmable data-channels. That notion of mainframe/midi/mini does produce the oddity of making the early -10s (whacking great) minis (or midis - a term I tend not to use), and the later -10s (with RH-20 channels) mainframes. The 2020 falls into the mainframe class at it sports programmable channels via its internal RH-11s. KAs, KIs, and KL-10As/Bs could be _used_ as "mainframes" with the addition of the external DF-10 data- channel device. > The PDP-10, as introduced in 1968, was comparable in size, power > dissipation, and environmental requirements, and had better > performance. _Technically_ one could run a minimal -10 is a non-air-conditioned room and get away with it. A KA-10 with DECtapes on it would be quite happy doing real-time control on a factory floor, for instance (which is why the cooling fans originally blew _down_). However, once disks got added that requirement changed dramaically. > If you *don't* consider the 360/50 to be a mainframe, I suggest that > your criteria must be fairly bizarre. The criteria may include all manner of things, and have never been fully accepted by everybody. Some things other than architecture may enter the equation, such as what the system was used for. To date, I've not seen a single "catch-all" definition of what really makes the difference between a "large system" and a "mainframe". Go figure. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 2 Jul 2000 18:25:09 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <8jnttl$hi@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962561974 nnrp-07:27110 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58951 Jonas Wissting (wiss@eelwing.arda) wrote: : > I've seen a manual for a thinnet transceiver that had a switch to set the : > impedence, so you could use 75ohm or 93ohm cable instead of 50ohm if that : > was what you had installed. Eeek!!! Presumably it would only work with other similar transceivers if used on other-than-50-ohm cable. : But the tranciver has to be hi-impedance. A voltage-sence reciver and : current-driving transmiter. So the cabel-impedance is of no major : importance to the tranciver, as long as you use the same cabel-impedance. The transceiver consists of a current source as the transmitter which sees a 25 ohm load (the 2 50 ohm cables/terminators in parallel). The current pulse that it transmits for a '1' (IIRC) thus becomes a voltage pulse on the cable which is detected by the voltage-detecting receivers. Now, what is a 'collision'? It's when 2 transmitters try to send at the same time. So 2 current sources pass current through the 25 ohm 'load' at the same time. This causes a higher-than-normal voltage pulse on the cable. Which is detected by the transceivers as a 'collision'. That's what the collision detection signal on the AUI connector is -- a signal that says a voltage pulse about some threshold has been detected on the cable. So, if you use 75 ohm cable with 50 ohm terminators you have a mismatch. It might work, but there are likely to errors due to reflections at the ends of the cable. If you use 75 ohm terminators, then the 'normal' voltage pulse will be higher than it should be (same current through a larger resistor). Some transceivers are going to see this as a collision, even though only one transmitter is actually transmitting. So either way you'll have problems! -tony ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 08:17:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: 5dulVkR0WVwWxPOTxNkJytdheYbB5TZelrUUE16Pbwk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 11:12:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-136 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59000 In article <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> Is this the whole book ["Computer Engineering"] on line, or excerpts >> from the published work??? Chapter 21 on line seems awfully short... > > It's the whole thing, and it's kind of like visiting an old >friend. > > Sadly, chapter 21 was the shortest section of the book. Remember >that "Computer Engineering" suffers badly from an NIH syndrome as >applied to one Gordon Bell. He wasn't much involved in the 36-bit >world and will minimise the impact of same to match. Remember, the >victors write the history -- small-computer thinking won the war. > Very well said [solemn emoticon here]. They didn't win--I don't count a total destruction as winning. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbah@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 09:17:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8jpvv1$7pf$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> <8j4ush$85b$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com> <8jn5uo$q20$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jpskt$9ds$4@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: z7wiMP57Gp6GG+Ezz+5G84cviPOTR2nHUVXHJEHALTY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 12:12:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-136 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59002 In article <8jpskt$9ds$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <8jn5uo$q20$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>In article , >> kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: Now I'm going to try to post from RCN without my spamimmolation screen. Let's see if Kragen and my AOL access can see this. Hypothsis: some kind of filter is pinging for invalid userids, but only for specified newsgroups. /BAH ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 08:21:06 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8jpskt$9ds$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <961886567.679271@elaine.furryape.com> <8j4ush$85b$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com> <8jn5uo$q20$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: 5dulVkR0WVxSabaLBi4OQfmIx+UZrwOURMKuTzPlhNE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 11:15:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-136 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59009 In article <8jn5uo$q20$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: >>In article <2dgolsskvi1tstto3mh8nesvlsiqq2egp0@4ax.com>, >>Brian Inglis wrote: >>>On Sun, 25 Jun 00 09:51:44 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>Wow! I didn't know that there existed somebody who could >>>>think when designing machine rooms. That activity seemed >>>>to attract all the loser managers. >> >>I haven't been able to read BAH's posts for quite a while --- they >>never show up on my NNTP server, isp-east.usenetserver.com. What's her >>NNTP-Posting-Host? > >OK, Kragen. Here is the post from the ISP I usually use that >I e-mailed you about this morning. Please reply (only Kragen, >please...nobody else) if you see it. If you don't see this >post, you may ignore it. I guess Kragen can't see my posts from this RCN ISP. Curiously, I can't see them from my AOL ISP either. My RCN posts to this newsgroup (and one other newsgroup) can't be seen from AOL. However, my postings to a different newsgroup do get propogated to AOL. Now does anybody have any suggestions about trying to figure out what is happening? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: wiss@eelwing.arda (Jonas Wissting) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:02:18 +0200 Organization: Utfors AB Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jnttl$hi@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: md4692031.utfors.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: yggdrasil.utfors.se 962568279 12986 212.105.32.49 (2 Jul 2000 20:04:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utfors.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 20:04:39 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.utfors.se!luthien.arda!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58983 In article <8jnttl$hi@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: ... > If you use 75 ohm terminators, then the 'normal' voltage pulse will be > higher than it should be (same current through a larger resistor). Some > transceivers are going to see this as a collision, even though only one > transmitter is actually transmitting. Ok. didnt think about collisions. Jonas -- http://wiss.unx.nu http://linux.unx.nu Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 16:01:38 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 26 Message-ID: <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59049 "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > > >> Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? > > > > Eric Chomko writes: > > > Oh no, they are Midis, not to be confused with the music interface. > > > > I don't know where this "midi" term came from, as it's not one of the > > customary classifications. > > The first time I ran across the term was in "Computer Engineering, > a Digital Perscpective". The volume may be found at: > > http://www.research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering > > and is a very good read. > Is this the whole book on line, or excerpts from the published work??? Chapter 21 on line seems awfully short... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:44:48 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 21 Message-ID: <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: Ft0MLpiCEBySJHCR5wBrfaaFq+E9nBE0J0KMFtP4Q5Y= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 00:44:51 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59015 Charles Richmond wrote: > > Is this the whole book ["Computer Engineering"] on line, or excerpts > from the published work??? Chapter 21 on line seems awfully short... It's the whole thing, and it's kind of like visiting an old friend. Sadly, chapter 21 was the shortest section of the book. Remember that "Computer Engineering" suffers badly from an NIH syndrome as applied to one Gordon Bell. He wasn't much involved in the 36-bit world and will minimise the impact of same to match. Remember, the victors write the history -- small-computer thinking won the war. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 3 Jul 2000 14:31:00 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8jq834$ach$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <359.214T1910T9145135@sky.bus.com> <395b8ff6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com> <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 962634660 10641 128.29.251.13 (3 Jul 2000 14:31:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 14:31:00 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58975 cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >And the cable's the wrong impedance and topology. OTOH, when I had >less nous about networking, I confess that I *did* try to use 75ohm >3270 cabling for an ethernet connection... oops. 3270 cable is 93-ohm, so your impedence mismatch is almost 2:1 if you're using it in an environment that expects 50-ohm cable. I assume that there's some reason that 3270 cable is 93 ohms instead of the much more common 75 (or even 50) ohm cable, but I don't know what it might be. Joe Morris ###### Message-ID: <3960D90A.F33CE6FF@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jnttl$hi@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:21:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.121.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 962648466 63.15.121.203 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:21:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:21:06 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsf1.elp.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58995 Tony Duell wrote: > Jonas Wissting (wiss@eelwing.arda) wrote: > : > I've seen a manual for a thinnet transceiver that had a switch to set the > : > impedence, so you could use 75ohm or 93ohm cable instead of 50ohm if that > : > was what you had installed. > > Eeek!!! Presumably it would only work with other similar transceivers if > used on other-than-50-ohm cable. > > : But the tranciver has to be hi-impedance. A voltage-sence reciver and > : current-driving transmiter. So the cabel-impedance is of no major > : importance to the tranciver, as long as you use the same cabel-impedance. > > The transceiver consists of a current source as the transmitter which > sees a 25 ohm load (the 2 50 ohm cables/terminators in parallel). The > current pulse that it transmits for a '1' (IIRC) thus becomes a voltage > pulse on the cable which is detected by the voltage-detecting receivers. > > Now, what is a 'collision'? It's when 2 transmitters try to send at the > same time. So 2 current sources pass current through the 25 ohm 'load' at > the same time. This causes a higher-than-normal voltage pulse on the > cable. Which is detected by the transceivers as a 'collision'. That's > what the collision detection signal on the AUI connector is -- a signal > that says a voltage pulse about some threshold has been detected on the > cable. > > So, if you use 75 ohm cable with 50 ohm terminators you have a mismatch. > It might work, but there are likely to errors due to reflections at the > ends of the cable. > > If you use 75 ohm terminators, then the 'normal' voltage pulse will be > higher than it should be (same current through a larger resistor). Some > transceivers are going to see this as a collision, even though only one > transmitter is actually transmitting. > > So either way you'll have problems! > I've never seen one for 75 ohm but I have for 93 ohm. Black Box makes a "modular concentrator" (hub) with plug in cards for various net types. Their 10Base2 plug in which supports six 10Base2 cables (part no. LE6422) has an option for either 50 ohm cable or 93 ohm cable. I've never, however, seen any other card which would support it. The only thing I can guess is that ARCNET is popular in industrial environments and it is 93 ohms. So maybe if you were upgrading a site to a new system and they didn't want to pull new cable....... (in our case when that happens, we just continue using ARCNET) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ > > -tony ###### Message-ID: <3960E16E.4F740AB8@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago - Anthropology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 sparc64) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jnttl$hi@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <3960D90A.F33CE6FF@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.77 X-Trace: uchinews 962650477 128.135.145.77 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:54:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:54:37 CDT Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:54:38 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58976 jchausler wrote: > > I've never seen one for 75 ohm but I have for 93 ohm. In the analogue video realm 75 ohm terminators are the standard. When I ran an edit suite it was a nightmare trying to make sure I was using 50 ohm for ethernet and 75 ohm for video. Neither were interchangeable. Swapping lead to bad (or no) network and obscene looking video. -- Simon Allaway | "It is the year 2000, and there University of Chicago | are no flying cars... where are Haskell Hall - M136 | all the flying cars? " - IBM ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 09:12:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: sJ01L8aPOb77kaAeAQESoYt8etA918wWoZ49bmcJXyE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 12:07:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-43 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59078 In article <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. So >> why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? > > The key word in my quote was, "thinking". The approach that the >-11 and VAX folks took was _very _ different from the tack the -10 >people did. The -11 folks were happy enough to say, "OK, so you have >to reboot it every so often" (a la Microsoft -- look where some of the >key playes wound up); ... " ...and don't worry about your data--it'll remain in core for the next time you want to read it." > ... the -10 people would not stand for that at all. >When one mentions the "thinking" behind the machine one must remember >the use to which a machine is to be put. > > The machines were meant for different purposes. The -11 was >(typically) used in a small, limited-user, environment; the -10 (even >though I class the machine as a _big_ mini) was, in its ultimate >incarnation, meant as a timesharing system to support dozens of >simultaneous users. Ahem, if the -10 was running TOPS-10, you should change that "dozens" to "hundreds". And the effect of this timesharing system, both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, is that the PDP-10 _appeared_ to be a personal machine to each and every user. > >> I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the >> building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That >> way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a >> PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were >> general enough... > > The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard >rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All >this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one >size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. > And I would object to this design because it would require a reboot. That's anathema to us "mainframe" OS developers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 11:06:55 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: lvEzvmZ9fo6STxxat11+8hFBYCB1juM3ddwkCxNu9RE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 14:01:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-160 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59079 In article <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com>, >> "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >> >Charles Richmond wrote: >> > >> >> I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the >> >> building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That >> >> way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a >> >> PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were >> >> general enough... >> > >> > The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard >> >rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All >> >this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one >> >size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. >> > >> And I would object to this design because it would require a >> reboot. That's anathema to us "mainframe" OS developers. > > I suspect that a machine could be constructed which would "change >personalities" during a context-switch without requiring a reboot. Then you're no longer talking at the level of microcode. This context-switch would be at the user mode level. > If >we've got a big enough control-store, there's no technical reason why >we couldn't load in all the different machine profiles and swap between >them during scheduling changes. Again, this is no longer at the microcode level, it's merely an aspect of user mode execution. For that matter, do you really need user mode execution simulation or do you just need a user interface simulation. > > Of course, it goes without saying that the I/O system on such a >mongrel would be an unmitigated nightmare.... > Not at all. It's been done before. Look at what the -20 group did with clusters and what was done w.r.t. HSCs on both OSes. And then look at all the distributed processing schemes that manufacturers produced. For that matter, in a very simple case, take a look at how the frontend of a KL was done. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 09:08:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8jsjqo$5ss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> X-Trace: h/jZ1Y5tVlfEKLaInAfzOErqnFjnWUJpR1USqujwe8Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 12:03:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-43 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59085 In article <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com>, >> "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >> >Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> >> >> Is this the whole book ["Computer Engineering"] on line, or excerpts >> >> from the published work??? Chapter 21 on line seems awfully short... >> > >> > It's the whole thing, and it's kind of like visiting an old >> >friend. >> > >> > Sadly, chapter 21 was the shortest section of the book. Remember >> >that "Computer Engineering" suffers badly from an NIH syndrome as >> >applied to one Gordon Bell. He wasn't much involved in the 36-bit >> >world and will minimise the impact of same to match. Remember, the >> >victors write the history -- small-computer thinking won the war. >> > >> Very well said [solemn emoticon here]. They didn't win--I >> don't count a total destruction as winning. >> >Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. There now exists a company that builds a PDP-10. When I said "total destruction", I meant all the knowledge that we had accumulated is gone. Hardware without the software is just a boat anchor (and a very ineffective one at that). And that's something that Bell and Co. never got through their very, very thick skulls. > So >why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? I read somewhere >on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the building of a micro- >processor with a writable microcode store. That way, one could load >microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or >whatever...if the chip internals were general enough... No more >emulators...just *become* the computer you want. > I proposed something like that (although not at the microcode level since I didn't want to interrupt computer service just for one user) in 1985. I was looked at as if I had grown two or three heads. I've taken a look at what the Java people did; they went just a tad further than I would have dared :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 03 Jul 2000 13:25:52 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 962666752 6961 128.171.80.135 (3 Jul 2000 23:25:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 23:25:52 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59108 >>>>> "Charles" == Charles Richmond writes: Charles> Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. Charles> So why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? I read Charles> somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the Charles> building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. Charles> That way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, Charles> a PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were Charles> general enough... No more emulators...just *become* the computer Charles> you want. e.g., the Burroughs B1700, ca. 1970 :-) ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 16:40:01 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 33 Message-ID: <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59114 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com>, > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > >Charles Richmond wrote: > >> > >> Is this the whole book ["Computer Engineering"] on line, or excerpts > >> from the published work??? Chapter 21 on line seems awfully short... > > > > It's the whole thing, and it's kind of like visiting an old > >friend. > > > > Sadly, chapter 21 was the shortest section of the book. Remember > >that "Computer Engineering" suffers badly from an NIH syndrome as > >applied to one Gordon Bell. He wasn't much involved in the 36-bit > >world and will minimise the impact of same to match. Remember, the > >victors write the history -- small-computer thinking won the war. > > > Very well said [solemn emoticon here]. They didn't win--I > don't count a total destruction as winning. > Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. So why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the building of a micro- processor with a writable microcode store. That way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were general enough... No more emulators...just *become* the computer you want. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:39:51 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 37 Message-ID: <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: RQJ68E9G9SLjPJVZBtSfUkOKRUpC8snn3SZeEvCLwL4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 01:39:54 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59090 Charles Richmond wrote: > > Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. So > why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? The key word in my quote was, "thinking". The approach that the -11 and VAX folks took was _very _ different from the tack the -10 people did. The -11 folks were happy enough to say, "OK, so you have to reboot it every so often" (a la Microsoft -- look where some of the key playes wound up); the -10 people would not stand for that at all. When one mentions the "thinking" behind the machine one must remember the use to which a machine is to be put. The machines were meant for different purposes. The -11 was (typically) used in a small, limited-user, environment; the -10 (even though I class the machine as a _big_ mini) was, in its ultimate incarnation, meant as a timesharing system to support dozens of simultaneous users. > I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the > building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That > way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a > PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were > general enough... The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:07:45 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: vIQYXZN3ztoJj8OdcUIjHb7dQcJfIFLHTiDv2QggQO8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2000 13:07:46 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59093 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com>, > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > >Charles Richmond wrote: > > >> I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the > >> building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That > >> way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a > >> PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were > >> general enough... > > > > The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard > >rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All > >this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one > >size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. > > > And I would object to this design because it would require a > reboot. That's anathema to us "mainframe" OS developers. I suspect that a machine could be constructed which would "change personalities" during a context-switch without requiring a reboot. If we've got a big enough control-store, there's no technical reason why we couldn't load in all the different machine profiles and swap between them during scheduling changes. Of course, it goes without saying that the I/O system on such a mongrel would be an unmitigated nightmare.... -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Sender: azz@cartman.azz.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Adam Sampson Message-ID: <877lb2ww4y.fsf@cartman.azz.net> Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Date: 04 Jul 2000 01:56:45 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.29.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 962740807 212.159.29.16 (Tue, 04 Jul 2000 21:00:07 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 21:00:07 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!btnet-peer0!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!cartman.azz.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59153 Charles Richmond writes: > I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the > building of a micro- processor with a writable microcode store. > That way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a > PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were > general enough... No more emulators...just *become* the computer > you want. ... you mean, like the Transmeta Crusoe CPUs, or even some of the later Pentiums (which do have upgradable microcode)? -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 5 Jul 2000 13:35:08 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 92 Message-ID: <8jvdic$1jma$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!tivoli.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59167 In <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com>, > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> In article <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com>, >>> "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >>> >Charles Richmond wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the >>> >> building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That >>> >> way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a >>> >> PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were >>> >> general enough... >>> > >>> > The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard >>> >rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All >>> >this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one >>> >size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. >>> > >>> And I would object to this design because it would require a >>> reboot. That's anathema to us "mainframe" OS developers. >> >> I suspect that a machine could be constructed which would "change >>personalities" during a context-switch without requiring a reboot. > >Then you're no longer talking at the level of microcode. This >context-switch would be at the user mode level. > > >> If >>we've got a big enough control-store, there's no technical reason why >>we couldn't load in all the different machine profiles and swap between >>them during scheduling changes. > >Again, this is no longer at the microcode level, it's merely >an aspect of user mode execution. For that matter, do you >really need user mode execution simulation or do you just >need a user interface simulation. > >> >> Of course, it goes without saying that the I/O system on such a >>mongrel would be an unmitigated nightmare.... >> >Not at all. It's been done before. Look at what the -20 group >did with clusters and what was done w.r.t. HSCs on both >OSes. And then look at all the distributed processing schemes >that manufacturers produced. For that matter, in a very simple >case, take a look at how the frontend of a KL was done. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Actually, one of the early great machines did do microcode swapping on a job/user/task basis. I think it was one of the Burroughs machines. The B1600 comes to mind, but I may be totally off with the number. The concept was that one set of microcode would be used for a Fortran job, while another would be used for a Cobol job. This would let the designers optomize the processor for each language. I don't know that it was extremely successful, but it did exist. Many large machines are microprogrammable, only not dynamically. I know that most of the large IBM mainframes are microprogrammable. For example, the 308x series could be either S/370 or 370/XA architecture, depending upon the microcode. I'm told that some of the 3090 machines could be either 370/XA or ESA/370 depending upon the microcode. Then, of course, there were the S/360 machines that had the ability to emulate older machines with custom microcode. I'm not aware of any of these that can have the microcode changed dynamically; however, an interesting side note is that the 308x machines did not have enough control store to contain all of the microcode. Thus, part of the main storage was partitioned and used to hold the excess microcode, which would be loaded into the control store when needed. The control store was pagable! This was documented in the Functional Characteristics manual for the 308x series. I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't be possible to have user programmable control store. A couple of problems would be that it would expose the architecture of the processor, and this could be problemmatic if different processors implemented the architecture differently. Additionally, it would probably be a very slow operation to load the control store. And, the operating system would have to make sure it preserved the contents of the control store across task switches in case another user was exploiting the ability. And, finally, there would be the issue of preventing an unpriviledged user from performing priviledged operations. But, theoretically, it's possible. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for the, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 5 Jul 2000 13:40:56 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8jvdt8$1jma$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!tivoli.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59165 In <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >In article <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com>, > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >>>>If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely a >>>>mainframe. >>> >>>Huh? I have 3 PC's networked using 10Base2 (thin coax) ethernet. >> >> But they're full computers, not just terminals. > >And the cable's the wrong impedance and topology. OTOH, when I had >less nous about networking, I confess that I *did* try to use 75ohm >3270 cabling for an ethernet connection... oops. > >Chris. It's 93 ohm cable, not 75 ohm. I think the designator is RG-62. I used to have a quantity of it here, but I can't find it at the moment (but, if you've ever seen my office, you'd understand why). I seem to remember that there were matching transformers available to convert it from the 95 ohm unbalanced (coax) to the whatever-impedance required by token-ring cards (or, vice versa). I remember running a 3279 terminal over a token ring cable for a while. I also have heard of someone who obtained a quantity of the 3270 style coax via the surplus market and tried to use it to hook up a CB radio. He wasn't real pleased with the results. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 10:08:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 93 Message-ID: <8k2042$mph$10@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jvdic$1jma$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: flAkf9V9tefV/yuS9V6aIipvlYj8Be2RzURxr2bUgd0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2000 13:04:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-27 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59227 In article <8jvdic$1jma$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>In article <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com>, >> "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>> In article <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com>, >>>> "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >>>> >Charles Richmond wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >> I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the >>>> >> building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That >>>> >> way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a >>>> >> PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were >>>> >> general enough... >>>> > >>>> > The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard >>>> >rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All >>>> >this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one >>>> >size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. >>>> > >>>> And I would object to this design because it would require a >>>> reboot. That's anathema to us "mainframe" OS developers. >>> >>> I suspect that a machine could be constructed which would "change >>>personalities" during a context-switch without requiring a reboot. >> >>Then you're no longer talking at the level of microcode. This >>context-switch would be at the user mode level. >> >> >>> If >>>we've got a big enough control-store, there's no technical reason why >>>we couldn't load in all the different machine profiles and swap between >>>them during scheduling changes. >> >>Again, this is no longer at the microcode level, it's merely >>an aspect of user mode execution. For that matter, do you >>really need user mode execution simulation or do you just >>need a user interface simulation. >> >>> >>> Of course, it goes without saying that the I/O system on such a >>>mongrel would be an unmitigated nightmare.... >>> >>Not at all. It's been done before. Look at what the -20 group >>did with clusters and what was done w.r.t. HSCs on both >>OSes. And then look at all the distributed processing schemes >>that manufacturers produced. For that matter, in a very simple >>case, take a look at how the frontend of a KL was done. >Actually, one of the early great machines did do microcode swapping on a >job/user/task basis. So the microcode is a part of the user's address space (even if it wasn't counted as that). The 1620 had the same idea with its job cards. Having to load a microcode as a preliminary for each context switch just sounds barfy. If I had system requirements for that, I would hook up n CPUs, where n is the number of microcodes I'd have to supply to my users, and just have each CPU dedicated for each microcode. Now the problem becomes a response mess rather than a scheduling and run mess. > I think it was one of the Burroughs machines. The >B1600 comes to mind, but I may be totally off with the number. The concept >was that one set of microcode would be used for a Fortran job, while >another would be used for a Cobol job. This would let the designers >optomize the processor for each language. I don't know that it was >extremely successful, but it did exist. And in the case of the 1620, it was the operators, not the designers, who did the optimization. Look, you can't have the designers decide what the users are going to want. Designers are so far removed from the actual users that I consider it arrogant for designers to tell users what they have to do. Designers (and we are talking about CPU hardware designers here) should never have to care about how the data of an application on a customer site is organized. The corollary that these designers not prevent the customer from organizing his data is also true. If these desigers really have to "know", then what we've got is another Gates...and this business doesn't need that. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 10:10:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8k206e$mph$11@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8jvdt8$1jma$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: pshvbKxuuMmIkY+ZlyKo3Y9KYMpLg3prsWs0e5muYYs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2000 13:05:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-27 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59241 In article <8jvdt8$1jma$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <8jmu22$tlh$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >>In article <491.217T1156T7914909@sky.bus.com>, >> "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >>>>>If they're connected by coax or twinax, it's almost definitely a >>>>>mainframe. >>>> >>>>Huh? I have 3 PC's networked using 10Base2 (thin coax) ethernet. >>> >>> But they're full computers, not just terminals. >> >>And the cable's the wrong impedance and topology. OTOH, when I had >>less nous about networking, I confess that I *did* try to use 75ohm >>3270 cabling for an ethernet connection... oops. >> >>Chris. > >It's 93 ohm cable, not 75 ohm. I think the designator is RG-62. I used >to have a quantity of it here, but I can't find it at the moment (but, >if you've ever seen my office, you'd understand why). Did your supervisor make you clean your office, too? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 10:06:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8k78nv$daf$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <8jsjqo$5ss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: aoTppFZPZq38WeopeJQiKu3B/AS5TpDTYwf2TKArHUo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 2000 13:01:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-248-213 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59247 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> There now exists a company that builds a PDP-10. > >Are you certain? There was a few years ago, but I don't think they >build them any longer. The last time one of the employees posted here, the implication was that XKL still was manufacturing them. The project that stopped three years ago was the development work to get TOPS10 to run on it. I'm not a stockholder so I don't have their current plans. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 09:40:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 89 Message-ID: <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: zyC43G3plN4I3RpoCgp4ksBvK0aQmUuz+JCTLNAZDdM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jul 2000 12:35:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-133 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59254 In article <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com>, >> "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >> > I suspect that a machine could be constructed which would "change >> >personalities" during a context-switch without requiring a reboot. >> >> Then you're no longer talking at the level of microcode. This >> context-switch would be at the user mode level. > > I hadn't thought of putting the switch facility in user-land. My >idea was that during a context switch, the microcode bank would be >fiddled, thereby setting up the "new machine", and finally executed >as the last act of the scheduler before control goes to the next >user. Think of a TOPS-10 rate of scheduling when there are 500 users requesting services. If each of those users required a special flavor of microcode, most of the CPU cycle would be spent establishing a microcode environment. One of the reasons SMP was developed was because of a similar problem where all of those users caused a rescheduling because of a request to an I/O service (I/O had to be scheduled and dealt with on the master CPU). That left the other CPU twiddling its feathers rather than doing useful work. Your idea isn't bad, it just needs a bit more thought of what real CPU service means. > > Getting back is another matter altogether, and would probably >require special microcode hooks to set the machine back to a "known" >state for interrupt and scheduling tasks. Not if the microcode is in user mode. > It's inelegant at best, >and useless at worst if a programmer is going to try to do interrupt >processing on a Virtual Machine, Type "X". Or ^C, now run my VMS program. > >> Again, this is no longer at the microcode level, it's merely >> an aspect of user mode execution. For that matter, do you >> really need user mode execution simulation or do you just >> need a user interface simulation. > > User-mode would obviously be the easiest, but would also allow >some measure of control by the controlling OS. I think the interface would be easier than user mode. > The I/O systems of, >say, a Packard Bell 250, a MicroEclipse, and a -10 just simply >would not play well together. Well, now you're opening the can of worms called data base format. > > DEC did manage to stitch together -8s, -11s, and -10s successfully, >but the results were sometimes bizarre. The DL-10, in point (which, >while an interesting device, seems to be almost universally loathed). Well, like I said in another post, that hardware stuff was a guy thing ;-). Remind me, what hung off the DL-10? IIRC, that was just a way to hardwire terminals into the -10. My answer to that is ANF-10. > > Imagine the possible simulation of an unlimited number of computers >on a single device, then try time-sharing that device. There would >almost _have_ to be some form of "sanity control" if the thing was to >be multi-user/multi-architecture. Now you're confusing systems with devices. > > Of course, too, it's possible I haven't seen daylight for a while. > > OK, I did the insert. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 19:06:21 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: gNf8davoOITlcxEKl0JU91Z/zqqE1uVgWJQX4DM43WY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2000 23:06:23 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59286 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com>, > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > I suspect that a machine could be constructed which would "change > >personalities" during a context-switch without requiring a reboot. > > Then you're no longer talking at the level of microcode. This > context-switch would be at the user mode level. I hadn't thought of putting the switch facility in user-land. My idea was that during a context switch, the microcode bank would be fiddled, thereby setting up the "new machine", and finally executed as the last act of the scheduler before control goes to the next user. Getting back is another matter altogether, and would probably require special microcode hooks to set the machine back to a "known" state for interrupt and scheduling tasks. It's inelegant at best, and useless at worst if a programmer is going to try to do interrupt processing on a Virtual Machine, Type "X". > Again, this is no longer at the microcode level, it's merely > an aspect of user mode execution. For that matter, do you > really need user mode execution simulation or do you just > need a user interface simulation. User-mode would obviously be the easiest, but would also allow some measure of control by the controlling OS. The I/O systems of, say, a Packard Bell 250, a MicroEclipse, and a -10 just simply would not play well together. DEC did manage to stitch together -8s, -11s, and -10s successfully, but the results were sometimes bizarre. The DL-10, in point (which, while an interesting device, seems to be almost universally loathed). Imagine the possible simulation of an unlimited number of computers on a single device, then try time-sharing that device. There would almost _have_ to be some form of "sanity control" if the thing was to be multi-user/multi-architecture. Of course, too, it's possible I haven't seen daylight for a while. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 7 Jul 2000 17:00:53 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8k52c5$aoc@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u1.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u1.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59248 Eric Smith wrote: : >> Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? : Eric Chomko writes: : > Oh no, they are Midis, not to be confused with the music interface. : I don't know where this "midi" term came from, as it's not one of the : customary classifications. And I don't have any idea what criteria : you're setting for the dividing lines between minis, "midis", and : mainframes. So I'll pose a question: : Was the IBM 360/50 a mainframe? If so, the PDP-10 (except for the 2020) : was definitely a mainframe. The PDP-10, as introduced in 1968, was : comparable in size, power dissipation, and environmental requirements, : and had better performance. : If you *don't* consider the 360/50 to be a mainframe, I suggest that your : criteria must be fairly bizarre. I'll try and dig up the classification specs for what constitutes a midi from a mainframe. Eric ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <8jsjqo$5ss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 07 Jul 2000 17:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 5 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 7 Jul 2000 17:22:06 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.he.net!rn.area.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59330 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > There now exists a company that builds a PDP-10. Are you certain? There was a few years ago, but I don't think they build them any longer. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <8jsjqo$5ss$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 19 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:49:54 EDT Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:49:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59386 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> There now exists a company that builds a PDP-10. > >Are you certain? There was a few years ago, but I don't think they >build them any longer. XKL built several TOAD-1s, but I don't think they're doing it any more. They're still running them, though, and Paul Allen has one with reputedly open access. I understand CompuServe bought a PDP-10 cloner many years back and made its own PDPs for a while. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:00:07 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 57 Message-ID: <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ofI4oYWHZkiEU01jI2jDmAPIulsCIHjwypKrIb9EsnM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 2000 13:00:10 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59288 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > Think of a TOPS-10 rate of scheduling when there are 500 > users requesting services. If each of those users required > a special flavor of microcode, most of the CPU cycle would > be spent establishing a microcode environment. My original idea was if a large enough control-store was available, then switching microcode would be as simple as changing a relocation pointer to the CS or bank-switching it With, perhaps, five or ten architecture "personalities" in control-store at the same time, one should be able to cover the most common bases without ever having to reload. Needless to say, the control-store would need to be quite large. > Not if the microcode is in user mode. User-writable (well, with OS permission) microcode does, or at least did, exist. A few of the DG Eclipse machines featured it. > > > It's inelegant at best, and useless at worst if a programmer is > >going to try to do interrupt processing on a Virtual Machine, > >Type "X". > > Or ^C, now run my VMS program. Simple: The ^C, as a command to the OS is trapped by the front- end and forces the microcode to bank-switch back to the machine's "native" personality to do the scheduling. Once that's done, another bank-switch sets up the VAX u-code and enters it when the scheduler exits. Mostly in hardware. Yeah, it's a "guy thing". ;-) > Well, like I said in another post, that hardware stuff was a > guy thing ;-). Remind me, what hung off the DL-10? IIRC, > that was just a way to hardwire terminals into the -10. > My answer to that is ANF-10. The DL-10 was an interface between four pdp11s (usually either 11/40s or 11/34s) which gave the -11s a window into the -10s memory. Interface to the -10-world was by both -6-style I/O bus and a bus to the memories; the 11s connected to the DL via their UNIBUSses (and sometimes had to have the timeout period lengthened). For the 11/40 and 11/34, the DL-10, under command from the host -10, could exercise control over the -11s front panel and halt/set-addr/ start the 11. At ADP, we used 'em to connect the comms processors (KAs) to the first-tier of "routing" nodes which were all 11/40s. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 08 Jul 2000 22:39:58 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 74 Message-ID: <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 963088798 1007 10.0.3.2 (8 Jul 2000 20:39:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 2000 20:39:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59399 "Carl R. Friend" writes: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > Think of a TOPS-10 rate of scheduling when there are 500 > > users requesting services. If each of those users required > > a special flavor of microcode, most of the CPU cycle would > > be spent establishing a microcode environment. > > My original idea was if a large enough control-store was available, > then switching microcode would be as simple as changing a relocation > pointer to the CS or bank-switching it With, perhaps, five or ten > architecture "personalities" in control-store at the same time, one > should be able to cover the most common bases without ever having to > reload. > > Needless to say, the control-store would need to be quite large. Looks like the Xerox Alto processor. Control store was 1-2k words of PROM and 1-3k words RAM. There were 16 "tasks" (control store instruction pointers) selected by an 4 bit "NTASK" register. Additonally it selected (via an 16*3bit "CTASK" register) which of the 8 user level register sets (32x16bit) were to be used. Task (and implicit an possible register set) change was from one cycle to the next (i.e. not time lost) driven via an priority encoder from the I/O boards request lines. This feature was intended for running I/O (3 Task for video out, 2 for disk I/O, 2 for Ethernet I/O, 1 for user programs). But it was also used to replace the PROM based DG Nove like instruction set (intended for BCPL) with ones optimised for Mesa, Smalltalk or Lisp. Of course that particular machine was too small for anything more than one user program and its one instruction set (64k*16bit memory of which nearly 1/2 was the video display bitmap (808x606pixelx1bit). Above all from an (very interesting) article by the machines designer Chuck Thacker in "A History of Personal Workstations", by Adele Goldberg (ed), from acm Press. > > Not if the microcode is in user mode. > > User-writable (well, with OS permission) microcode does, or at > least did, exist. A few of the DG Eclipse machines featured it. And the Alto. Of course, as this was an early workstation, there was no concept of system/user modes as in multi-user machines. > > > It's inelegant at best, and useless at worst if a programmer is > > >going to try to do interrupt processing on a Virtual Machine, > > >Type "X". > > > > Or ^C, now run my VMS program. > > Simple: The ^C, as a command to the OS is trapped by the front- > end and forces the microcode to bank-switch back to the machine's > "native" personality to do the scheduling. Once that's done, another > bank-switch sets up the VAX u-code and enters it when the scheduler > exits. Mostly in hardware. Yeah, it's a "guy thing". ;-) Or simpler: ^C is essentially user input, i.e. it arrives as an keyboard interrupt. Have any interrupt set not just an new instruction pointer, but also select the instruction set. Zero time loss. Yes, also an hardware/guy thing. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 08:52:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 79 Message-ID: <8k9op8$pre$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: HS7THl3ceW4MfoWc54Pde1sR3f3zvP0ITS8XvEVlrIs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 2000 11:47:52 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-30 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59425 In article <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >"Carl R. Friend" writes: > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > Think of a TOPS-10 rate of scheduling when there are 500 >> > users requesting services. If each of those users required >> > a special flavor of microcode, most of the CPU cycle would >> > be spent establishing a microcode environment. >> >> My original idea was if a large enough control-store was available, >> then switching microcode would be as simple as changing a relocation >> pointer to the CS or bank-switching it With, perhaps, five or ten >> architecture "personalities" in control-store at the same time, one >> should be able to cover the most common bases without ever having to >> reload. >> >> Needless to say, the control-store would need to be quite large. > >Looks like the Xerox Alto processor. > >Control store was 1-2k words of PROM and 1-3k words RAM. There were >16 "tasks" (control store instruction pointers) selected by an 4 bit >"NTASK" register. Additonally it selected (via an 16*3bit "CTASK" >register) which of the 8 user level register sets (32x16bit) were >to be used. > >Task (and implicit an possible register set) change was from one cycle >to the next (i.e. not time lost) driven via an priority encoder from >the I/O boards request lines. > >This feature was intended for running I/O (3 Task for video out, 2 for >disk I/O, 2 for Ethernet I/O, 1 for user programs). But it was also >used to replace the PROM based DG Nove like instruction set (intended >for BCPL) with ones optimised for Mesa, Smalltalk or Lisp. > >Of course that particular machine was too small for anything more than >one user program and its one instruction set (64k*16bit memory of which >nearly 1/2 was the video display bitmap (808x606pixelx1bit). > >Above all from an (very interesting) article by the machines designer >Chuck Thacker in "A History of Personal Workstations", by Adele >Goldberg (ed), from acm Press. > > >> > Not if the microcode is in user mode. >> >> User-writable (well, with OS permission) microcode does, or at >> least did, exist. A few of the DG Eclipse machines featured it. > >And the Alto. Of course, as this was an early workstation, there was >no concept of system/user modes as in multi-user machines. > > >> > > It's inelegant at best, and useless at worst if a programmer is >> > >going to try to do interrupt processing on a Virtual Machine, >> > >Type "X". >> > >> > Or ^C, now run my VMS program. >> >> Simple: The ^C, as a command to the OS is trapped by the front- >> end and forces the microcode to bank-switch back to the machine's >> "native" personality to do the scheduling. Once that's done, another >> bank-switch sets up the VAX u-code and enters it when the scheduler >> exits. Mostly in hardware. Yeah, it's a "guy thing". ;-) > >Or simpler: ^C is essentially user input, i.e. it arrives as an >keyboard interrupt. Have any interrupt set not just an new instruction >pointer, but also select the instruction set. Zero time loss. Yes, >also an hardware/guy thing. > > NNNOOOooooo!!!! Don't do that! Now you're taking away my type-ahead. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <396796B5.C956FD47@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net Organization: The Keltic League X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net> <8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:56:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.32.65 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 963089771 138.88.32.65 (Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:56:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:56:11 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59442 "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > > Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. So > > why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? > > The key word in my quote was, "thinking". The approach that the > -11 and VAX folks took was _very _ different from the tack the -10 > people did. The -11 folks were happy enough to say, "OK, so you have > to reboot it every so often" (a la Microsoft -- look where some of the > key playes wound up); the -10 people would not stand for that at all. > When one mentions the "thinking" behind the machine one must remember > the use to which a machine is to be put. > > The machines were meant for different purposes. The -11 was > (typically) used in a small, limited-user, environment; the -10 (even > though I class the machine as a _big_ mini) was, in its ultimate > incarnation, meant as a timesharing system to support dozens of > simultaneous users. > > > I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the > > building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That > > way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a > > PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were > > general enough... > > The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard > rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All > this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one > size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. 11/60 and KMC/DMC11 IO processors were Harvard Architecture and thus micromachines. So, you are very precisely correct (as usual Carl!) in your comparison! If someone hunted down Roland Belanger (aka Rollie), one might be able to determine the exact date of the KL running 370 code and I think it was VM. I want to say winter of 75 or 76... just bob > > -- > +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | > | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ > | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | > +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 9 Jul 2000 02:26:12 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8k8ns4$848@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <3950187a$1$149$39368dfe@news.twtelecom.net><8ip8t5$2vf$1@news.igs.net> <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8 NNTP-Posting-Host: u1.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u1.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59413 Eric Chomko wrote: : Eric Smith wrote: : : >> Do you think of PDP-10s as mainframes? : : Eric Chomko writes: : : > Oh no, they are Midis, not to be confused with the music interface. : : I don't know where this "midi" term came from, as it's not one of the : : customary classifications. And I don't have any idea what criteria : : you're setting for the dividing lines between minis, "midis", and : : mainframes. So I'll pose a question: : : Was the IBM 360/50 a mainframe? If so, the PDP-10 (except for the 2020) : : was definitely a mainframe. The PDP-10, as introduced in 1968, was : : comparable in size, power dissipation, and environmental requirements, : : and had better performance. : : If you *don't* consider the 360/50 to be a mainframe, I suggest that your : : criteria must be fairly bizarre. : I'll try and dig up the classification specs for what constitutes a midi : from a mainframe. It's not in: Encyclopedia of Computer Science by Van Nostrad Reinhold Company (c) 1976 IIRC, it was from the non-techincal books related to "computers in society"; more at meta-'computer science'. : Eric ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 10:47:54 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3968909A.37808402@prescienttech.com> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: TUqM6U/pz8xhHmXfpX0G1b3rZ/9zSvgsH7MjVSoy++U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 2000 14:48:27 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59447 Neil Franklin wrote: > > "Carl R. Friend" writes: > > > Needless to say, the control-store would need to be quite large. > > Looks like the Xerox Alto processor. > > Control store was 1-2k words of PROM and 1-3k words RAM. > [...] > Task (and implicit an possible register set) change was from one cycle > to the next (i.e. not time lost) driven via an priority encoder from > the I/O boards request lines. > > This feature was intended for running I/O [...]. But it was also > used to replace the PROM based DG Nove like instruction set (intended > for BCPL) with ones optimised for Mesa, Smalltalk or Lisp. *boggle* I thought that the Alto was primarily a Nova clone.... > Above all from an (very interesting) article by the machines designer > Chuck Thacker in "A History of Personal Workstations", by Adele > Goldberg (ed), from acm Press. It looks like it's Public Library time. What was the time-frame of the article? -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 10:53:38 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 32 Message-ID: <396891F2.8A2AE327@prescienttech.com> References: <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8k9op8$pre$7@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: +loA3JFqqAUvTpMKaUGr2b7/q3+dyncf7xJg2orA22U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 2000 14:53:39 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59452 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: [Large edit here] > >Or simpler: ^C is essentially user input, i.e. it arrives as an > >keyboard interrupt. Have any interrupt set not just an new > >instruction pointer, but also select the instruction set. Zero time > >loss. Yes, also an hardware/guy thing. > > > NNNOOOooooo!!!! Don't do that! Now you're taking away > my type-ahead. Not at all. On interrupt, the system would need to revert to its "native" mode for I/O handling. Once there, it'd examine the character and, if it wasn't interested in it, would simply toss it back onto the user's input queue and resume what it was doing (possibly with a different "persona"). There'd be no loss of type-ahead in that case. Did a ^C flush the input buffer on the -10? I seem to remember that it did, but I may be mistaken. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 09 Jul 2000 22:26:27 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6u1z13qccs.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3968909A.37808402@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 963174387 391 10.0.3.2 (9 Jul 2000 20:26:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 2000 20:26:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59488 "Carl R. Friend" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > "Carl R. Friend" writes: > > > > > Needless to say, the control-store would need to be quite large. > > > > Looks like the Xerox Alto processor. > > *boggle* I thought that the Alto was primarily a Nova clone.... > > > Above all from an (very interesting) article by the machines designer > > Chuck Thacker in "A History of Personal Workstations", by Adele > > Goldberg (ed), from acm Press. > > It looks like it's Public Library time. What was the time-frame > of the article? ISBN 0-201-11259-0 Published in 1988 Article/paper (it is a conference proceedings) starts page 267. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 11:09:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <8kcl73$bnn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8k9op8$pre$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <396891F2.8A2AE327@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: V8W3bDID4I0rG05s6TBckdtbL7BpQ4oMkYJ/FBQ4Z/g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2000 14:05:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-134 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59527 In article <396891F2.8A2AE327@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >> Neil Franklin wrote: > > [Large edit here] > >> >Or simpler: ^C is essentially user input, i.e. it arrives as an >> >keyboard interrupt. Have any interrupt set not just an new >> >instruction pointer, but also select the instruction set. Zero time >> >loss. Yes, also an hardware/guy thing. >> > >> NNNOOOooooo!!!! Don't do that! Now you're taking away >> my type-ahead. > > Not at all. On interrupt, the system would need to revert to its >"native" mode for I/O handling. Ooohhh, you're getting awfully complicated here. Always do simple things simply. Start thinking about what interrupts would generate a switch to native mode. Should it be done when I fill all of my buffers? Or should it be done when I do an OUT UUO. And then begin to think about all those silly network protocol layers that had to be swallowed. > Once there, it'd examine the character >and, if it wasn't interested in it, would simply toss it back onto the >user's input queue :-)) > ...and resume what it was doing (possibly with a >different "persona"). There'd be no loss of type-ahead in that >case. > > Did a ^C flush the input buffer on the -10? I seem to remember >that it did, but I may be mistaken. Well, there was also this little feature called ^C intercept, too. I invoked programs that used that when my monitor commands had to be sequential. I was never patient enough to set at my terminal and wait for things to get done before I typed my next command...except editing, of course. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:39:44 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 121 Message-ID: <6uzono765r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <8jsk2g$5ss$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3961E1A0.A84C9AF4@prescienttech.com> <8jsqo5$ev3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3963BF6D.45891987@prescienttech.com> <8k4ir4$ohu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <396725D7.58F5C5D8@prescienttech.com> <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8k9op8$pre$7@bob.news.rcn.net> <396891F2.8A2AE327@prescienttech.com> <8kcl73$bnn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 963347985 20690 10.0.3.2 (11 Jul 2000 20:39:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:39:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59625 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <396891F2.8A2AE327@prescienttech.com>, > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article <6u8zvc73vl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > >> Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > [Large edit here] > > > >> >Or simpler: ^C is essentially user input, i.e. it arrives as an > >> >keyboard interrupt. Have any interrupt set not just an new > >> >instruction pointer, but also select the instruction set. Zero time > >> >loss. Yes, also an hardware/guy thing. > >> > > >> NNNOOOooooo!!!! Don't do that! Now you're taking away > >> my type-ahead. > > > > Not at all. On interrupt, the system would need to revert to its > >"native" mode for I/O handling. > > Ooohhh, you're getting awfully complicated here. Always do simple > things simply. Actually not more complicated than things have been on any decent computer for decades. > Start thinking about what interrupts > would generate a switch to native mode. Every interrupt that results in an switch from user/problem mode to system/supervisor mode. Actually one would use one (default?) instruction set for all system mode code, and then let each user mode task demand its own instruction set (say, by what type of file its executable binary is in). Instruction set switching would be done by a) the _existing_ system/user mechanism (with just a bit more functionality hooked off it) and b) an user-instr-set register (set by system mode code while doing the existing context switch stuff). > Should it be done ###### > when I fill all of my buffers? The word Interrupts as I (and possibly Carl) are using it applies only to when the processor is interrupted by an signal from external hardware requiring the processors attention (keyboard character arrived, timer run down, buffer from disk full, buffer to ethernet empty, and so on). > Or should it be done when I > do an OUT UUO. Sorry, I do not know PDP-10 terminology enough to understand that one. > And then begin to think about all those > silly network protocol layers that had to be swallowed. They are: - either in the kernel, and so supervisor code, and so system instruction set, and so no switches are needed - or in an special process (like the file daemon you described) and so possibly switched on every system call, like any other process. That would require the processor to also do switches on traps, so we should generalise interrupts->exeptions (int+trap). Oops, you have just found a bug in my first implementation. > > Once there, it'd examine the character > >and, if it wasn't interested in it, would simply toss it back onto the > >user's input queue > > :-)) Standard fare actually: Character arrives, device issues interrupt, character is grabbed from device, checked for special characters such as ^C, if special it is reacted on (say setting an terminate signal flag for that terminals active process), else it goes into that processes input data buffer. When the process becomes active (direct after end of interrupt handling (if it was running before interruption), or after resheduling (if annother process was running)) it will have to process all pending signals [1], else it will fetch the input. [1] If terminate is set and no handler registered, the process will be killed instead of run. If a handler is set the process will be run, with continuation set to the handler [2]. Else it will work on and some time fetch its input from the buffer. Fetching input (or any other system call) requires an trap to system mode to retrieve the data from the input buffer. [2] the OS code to patch in the continuations would have to be user instruction set dependant. This is standard fare today, even an Intel 386 (15 years old microprocessor) can do that. Adding multi-instruction-set support would only add an instruction set switch to the interrupt, return-from-interrupt, os-call-trap and return-from-trap operations (and of course the RAM space to load the new instruction sets). Nothing difficult at all. I would assume the microcoded PDP-10s (KL-10/KS-10 AFAIK) could have added this and run IBM S/360 parallel to running the 10s instruction set with the technology available when they were made. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:42:13 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <8iqm3b$hf6$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8iqumk$ebe$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8ispua$ea5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8jdkt9$b34@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <8jil4k$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <395F64C5.3B13762C@prescienttech.com> <395FC9D3.AE5959D@ev1.net> <395FE200.F0FC050D@prescienttech.com> <8jpse9$9ds$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39612450.5C4A4AF4@ev1.net> <39614067.B39DD157@prescienttech.com> <396796B5.C956FD47@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.131.123 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.131.123 X-Trace: 11 Jul 2000 23:42:14 -0700, 207.148.131.123 Lines: 54 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!news.idt.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.131.123 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59696 On Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:56:11 GMT, hg/jb wrote: > > >"Carl R. Friend" wrote: >> >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> > >> > Well, it is perfectly possible to build a PDP-10 microprocessor. So >> > why can't the -10 exist in a small computer world??? >> >> The key word in my quote was, "thinking". The approach that the >> -11 and VAX folks took was _very _ different from the tack the -10 >> people did. The -11 folks were happy enough to say, "OK, so you have >> to reboot it every so often" (a la Microsoft -- look where some of the >> key playes wound up); the -10 people would not stand for that at all. >> When one mentions the "thinking" behind the machine one must remember >> the use to which a machine is to be put. >> >> The machines were meant for different purposes. The -11 was >> (typically) used in a small, limited-user, environment; the -10 (even >> though I class the machine as a _big_ mini) was, in its ultimate >> incarnation, meant as a timesharing system to support dozens of >> simultaneous users. >> >> > I read somewhere on Usenet a post that effectively suggested the >> > building of a micro-processor with a writable microcode store. That >> > way, one could load microcode and make the machine a PDP-11, a >> > PDP-10, an Elliot 803, or whatever...if the chip internals were >> > general enough... >> >> The 11/60 was such a machine (just to name one), and I've heard >> rumours that a KL-10 was once microprogrammed to run S/370 code. All >> this is possible, given a wide enough word width. It's just that one >> size in computers, like clothing, does _not_ fit all. >11/60 and KMC/DMC11 IO processors were Harvard Architecture and thus >micromachines. So, you are very precisely correct (as usual Carl!) in >your comparison! >If someone hunted down Roland Belanger (aka Rollie), one might >be able to determine the exact date of the KL running 370 code >and I think it was VM. I want to say winter of 75 or 76... >just bob What a sick puppy -- where can I learn more? I cut my teeth on 18 and 36 bit (-15 and -10) 5x7 ASCII machines then moved to 32 bit blue boxes with VM. I'd guess Olsen didn't want to even offer a PCM mode or box, unlike others who made money out of it for years? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply