From: "river" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:06:09 +1000 Organization: Pacific Internet (Australia) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: kyle93.zip.com.au X-Trace: nina.pacific.net.au 961584122 8694 61.8.17.221 (21 Jun 2000 10:42:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacific.net.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:42:02 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!newsfeed.zip.com.au!news.syd.pacific.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58231 Hi, I read the other day that the transistor could of come from alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? The article reckoned that mankind was on the wrong track and wouldn't of invented the trannie except for checking out some alien wreckage. At that time the design of the trannie was going nowhere and the valve reigned supreme. So, goodbye valve computers the size of football fields and welcome transistor and SSI/MSI/LSI technology? I thought this news group would probably know more about this than others. river ###### From: scottdav@nospam.com (Scott Davidson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 21 Jun 2000 16:32:48 GMT Organization: LGP21 Users Group Lines: 47 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> References: Reply-To: scottdav@nospam.com NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager2.eng.sun.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!denver-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!namche.sun.com!ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews1.eng.sun.com!voyager2!scottdav Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58236 In article 506941@news-west.usenetserver.com, "Jack Peacock" writes: >"river" wrote in message >news:8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au... >> Hi, >> >> I read the other day that the transistor could of come from >> alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the >> Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? >> >> The article reckoned that mankind was on the wrong track >> and wouldn't of invented the trannie except for checking out >> some alien wreckage. At that time the design of the trannie >> was going nowhere and the valve reigned supreme. >> >EE Times did an excellent history on the development of the transistor, >I believe on the 50th anniversary. Mankind was not on the wrong track, >semiconductor diodes had already been built, proceeding to a three layer >device was a natural progression. The invention was in line with >advances in physics. Like the telephone and laser, several researchers >were all close, it's just that the Bell Labs guys got there first. > >Consider this, if you were presented with truly advanced electronics in >1948, say a 3D monolithic photonic circuit built at a molecular level >utilizing quantum effects, what would you do with it? Anyone capable of >interstellar spacecraft would have electronic equivalents well in >advance of today's electronics. In 1948 you wouldn't even have the >tools to take it apart or the basic knowledge to understand what you are >looking at. What would a research scientist in 1848 do with a .18 >micron K7 chip? > Jack Peacock > > > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would they make of ICs in 1945? Imagine how much worse it would be for an advanced alien technology! Scott "Never saw even one ET in Murray Hill" Davidson ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.19.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:14:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.144.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 961611246 193.203.144.177 (Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:14:06 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:14:06 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!diablo.theplanet.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58254 Scott Davidson wrote: > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. An American one maybe but not a British or even more so a German one. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Lines: 30 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:47:31 EDT Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:45:32 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58259 "river" wrote in message news:8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au... > Hi, > > I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? > > The article reckoned that mankind was on the wrong track > and wouldn't of invented the trannie except for checking out > some alien wreckage. At that time the design of the trannie > was going nowhere and the valve reigned supreme. > EE Times did an excellent history on the development of the transistor, I believe on the 50th anniversary. Mankind was not on the wrong track, semiconductor diodes had already been built, proceeding to a three layer device was a natural progression. The invention was in line with advances in physics. Like the telephone and laser, several researchers were all close, it's just that the Bell Labs guys got there first. Consider this, if you were presented with truly advanced electronics in 1948, say a 3D monolithic photonic circuit built at a molecular level utilizing quantum effects, what would you do with it? Anyone capable of interstellar spacecraft would have electronic equivalents well in advance of today's electronics. In 1948 you wouldn't even have the tools to take it apart or the basic knowledge to understand what you are looking at. What would a research scientist in 1848 do with a .18 micron K7 chip? Jack Peacock ###### From: stupid@aol.com (Eric Von Dumigan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:56:53 GMT Organization: netINS, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8iqhj5$8fe$1@ins21.netins.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: desm-28-021.dialup.netins.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.netins.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58209 In article , peacock@simconv.com says... > >"river" wrote in message >news:8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au... >> Hi, >> >> I read the other day that the transistor could of come from >> alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the >> Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? >> >> The article reckoned that mankind was on the wrong track >> and wouldn't of invented the trannie except for checking out >> some alien wreckage. At that time the design of the trannie >> was going nowhere and the valve reigned supreme. >> >EE Times did an excellent history on the development of the transistor, >I believe on the 50th anniversary. Mankind was not on the wrong track, >semiconductor diodes had already been built, proceeding to a three layer >device was a natural progression. The invention was in line with >advances in physics. Like the telephone and laser, several researchers >were all close, it's just that the Bell Labs guys got there first. > >Consider this, if you were presented with truly advanced electronics in >1948, say a 3D monolithic photonic circuit built at a molecular level >utilizing quantum effects, what would you do with it? Anyone capable of >interstellar spacecraft would have electronic equivalents well in >advance of today's electronics. In 1948 you wouldn't even have the >tools to take it apart or the basic knowledge to understand what you are >looking at. What would a research scientist in 1848 do with a .18 >micron K7 chip? > Jack Peacock > This is all based on the premise that mankind is too stupid to develop anything from scratch even with years and years of research and development leading up to it but can reverse engineer advanced alien technology in a matter of months. This is usually put forth but people who are unable to figure out how man could ever come up with the idea you could build a pyramid by stacking blocks of stone on top of other blocks of stone. Eric ###### Message-ID: <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:35:45 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 961598146 26435 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58223 Jack Peacock wrote: > Consider this, if you were presented with truly advanced electronics in > 1948, say a 3D monolithic photonic circuit built at a molecular level > utilizing quantum effects, what would you do with it? Anyone capable of > interstellar spacecraft would have electronic equivalents well in > advance of today's electronics. In 1948 you wouldn't even have the > tools to take it apart or the basic knowledge to understand what you are > looking at. Where do you hook up filament voltage and B+ to it? Does it plug into an octal socket? Tim. ###### From: "Liberal Republican" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:47:32 +0100 Message-ID: <961606211.14973.0.nnrp-02.9e98250c@news.demon.co.uk> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cemetery.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cemetery.demon.co.uk:158.152.37.12 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961606211 nnrp-02:14973 NO-IDENT cemetery.demon.co.uk:158.152.37.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 79 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cemetery.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58251 Jack Peacock wrote in message news:TH345.10593$w7.506941@news-west.usenetserver.com... > "river" wrote in message > news:8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au... > > Hi, > > > > I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > > alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > > Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? > > > > The article reckoned that mankind was on the wrong track > > and wouldn't of invented the trannie except for checking out > > some alien wreckage. At that time the design of the trannie > > was going nowhere and the valve reigned supreme. > > > EE Times did an excellent history on the development of the transistor, > I believe on the 50th anniversary. Mankind was not on the wrong track, > semiconductor diodes had already been built, proceeding to a three layer > device was a natural progression. The invention was in line with > advances in physics. Like the telephone and laser, several researchers > were all close, it's just that the Bell Labs guys got there first. You might like his.... SemiConductor Theory -------------------- (c) 1997 by Gareth Alun Evans A transistor is rather like the human alimentary canal, after the typical USA diet of burgers and chips; - it constipates, as do semiconductor diodes with no applied bias - the available holes get filled in and nothing can move. The base current is like a small application of laxative; some of the constipation passes through, until the effect of the laxative wears off. The total throughput depends upon the Mobility. By applying a continuous feed of laxative, then a continuous current passes through. Applying too much laxative results in saturation - ie, there is a limit to the maximum throughput, depending on the external circuit; in this case, the maximum rate at which you can feed in the burgers at one end. (If you are a customer of MacDonalds's, here in Chippenham, Wiltshire, UK then this rate is very low - I have been there twice, and both times, the service was *APPALLING*.) The difference between PNP and NPN is the direction. In the old days, PNP was used, whereby one injected from the rear end, using a sort of huge syringe - hence PNP - "Put-in Near Poo". More recently NPN is more common, where the laxative is entered via a carrier of some sort, usually chocolate and so we have NPN - "Now Pleasant Nutrient". Despite the adverse effects, the USA diet of burgers and chips carries on, and recourse has to be made once again to the chocolate. Now the ratio of the carriers of the constipation, the burgers and chips, is much higher than that of the chocolate. Thus they are referred to as the Majority Carriers and the Minority Carriers. If you indulge too much, you find that the vendor will provide you with a paper bag, known as an Excess Carrier. More recently, there are problems with impurities and you find that the opposite effect occurs. You have no time to reach home before diarrhoea takes over. You have no option but to stop the car and nip over a gate into a field. Hence the Field Effect Transistor. This time you have to inject something to STOP the flow. Now, assuming that there was a certain control over events; nothing happened until the Gate was encountered, you then became the Source of flow, and the field itself acted as the Drain. What was originally dirt, became grass, was consumed by the Cow, you ate it as a burger, and it has now returned to the topsoil, an effect known in the trade as Surface Recombination. (Incidentally, did you know that Diarrhoea is hereditary? Apparently it runs in the jeans.) Some of the impurities accumulate in your rear end, and no matter how valiently you try, you cannot rid yourself of them. Hence In-de-Bum is known as a Try-Valient Impurity. In the same way, Arse-nic, well known for its ill-effects and accumulation in the body tissues is known as a Pent-Up-Valient Impurity. -- 73's etc de Gareth G4SDW (nee G8DXY) GQRP 3339 ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:06:45 +0300 Organization: Compugen, Ltd. Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 961607205 20507 194.90.227.153 (21 Jun 2000 17:06:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:06:45 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58232 "Jack Peacock" writes: > "river" wrote in message > news:8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au... > > Hi, > > > > I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > > alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > > Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? > > > > The article reckoned that mankind was on the wrong track > > and wouldn't of invented the trannie except for checking out > > some alien wreckage. At that time the design of the trannie > > was going nowhere and the valve reigned supreme. > > > EE Times did an excellent history on the development of the transistor, > I believe on the 50th anniversary. Mankind was not on the wrong track, > semiconductor diodes had already been built, proceeding to a three layer > device was a natural progression. The invention was in line with > advances in physics. Like the telephone and laser, several researchers > were all close, it's just that the Bell Labs guys got there first. The company is called "American ". They also have some amazing computing devices, which they don't seem to be using for anything much. The Bell Labs story is just a US government coverup. Naturally, any aliens wanting to crash-land would crash in the US, fully equipped with devices within the manufacturing capacity of the US at the time. Presumably they used the time machine to crash at precisely the right historical moment (a few years before, and it's WWII; a few years later, and some jokers from Bell Labs will already have invented the transistor). [...] -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: rivie@server.logan.teraglobal (Roger Ivie) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> Reply-To: rivie@teraglobal.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.186.13.23 Date: 21 Jun 2000 12:07:54 -0500 X-Trace: 21 Jun 2000 12:07:54 -0500, 208.186.13.23 Lines: 25 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!216.65.16.3!news-out.nibble.net!news-in.nibble.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!corp.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!rivie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58200 In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like that. -- Roger Ivie Speaking only for myself TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1770 North Research Park Way Suite 100 Logan, UT 84341 mailto:rivie@teraglobal.com phoneto:(435)787-0555 faxto:(435)787-0516 -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 16 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:24:21 EDT Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:22:27 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58333 "Nick Spalding" wrote in message news:rb12lsg3nqoo7hbah9056mmlbq7tkh9qbf@4ax.com... > Scott Davidson wrote: > > > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog > > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this > > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be > > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. > > An American one maybe but not a British or even more so a German one. > -- The US jet program was out at what later became Edwards AFB, east of Los Angeles. The prototypes were camoflauged with fake propellers over the intake. Hmm, was it the P-50? Jack Peacock ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 22 Jun 2000 00:52:41 GMT Organization: LGP21 Users Group Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> References: Reply-To: scottdav@nospam.com NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager2.eng.sun.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!denver-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!namche.sun.com!ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews1.eng.sun.com!voyager2!scottdav Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58309 In article 26635@news-west.usenetserver.com, "Jack Peacock" writes: >"Nick Spalding" wrote in message >news:rb12lsg3nqoo7hbah9056mmlbq7tkh9qbf@4ax.com... >> Scott Davidson wrote: >> >> > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog >> > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this >> > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be >> > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. >> >> An American one maybe but not a British or even more so a German one. >> -- >The US jet program was out at what later became Edwards AFB, east of Los >Angeles. The prototypes were camoflauged with fake propellers over the >intake. Hmm, was it the P-50? > Jack Peacock > Actually, the issue was not the jet engines, which could have been understood, but rather the electronics inside the cockpit, which would have been a lot harder to understand. For instance (using more modern examples) they would not have the technology to etch away the layers to even see the routing, even assuming they had some reason to think there was interconnect in there. And if they put a scope on the outputs (assuming they got the thing running) they would see nothing. Scott ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:01:50 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58264 Scott Davidson wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would > they make of ICs in 1945? > You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. Ultimately, Germany would *have* to lose...they were matching their production capability with the production capability of the rest of the world practically. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 22 Jun 2000 13:04:37 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8it2t5$1iea$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!abq.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58320 In <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond writes: >Scott Davidson wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog >> in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this >> subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be >> by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would >> they make of ICs in 1945? >> >You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about >the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built >a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel >that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in >WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the >company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the >jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. >Ultimately, Germany would *have* to lose...they were matching their >production capability with the production capability of the rest of >the world practically. > >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Charles and Francis Richmond | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Also, don't forget that the V-1 was based on pulse jet technology. And, then, there's ram jet technology. Can you imagine someone based in reciprocating engines attempting to understand a ram jet? "It's just a hollow tube. How can it provide power?" Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Message-ID: <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:21:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.50.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 961687277 63.15.50.15 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:21:17 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:21:17 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58288 Nick Spalding wrote: > Scott Davidson wrote: > > > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog > > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this > > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be > > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. > > An American one maybe but not a British or even more so a German one. The comedian Bob Newhart had a routine as a take off on the fact that a number of Japanese soldiers trapped on islands in the Pacific didn't know the war was over. Bob's routine was that a couple of Germans out in the woods somewhere didn't know either. At one point in the routine an airplane flies over. One German notes to the other that it's an american plane. The other says that obviously Germany must be winning the war cause obviously the americans were short of material, the plane didn't have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact that the only jet planes active in WWII were German....... Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: scottdav@nospam.com (Scott Davidson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 22 Jun 2000 16:33:52 GMT Organization: LGP21 Users Group Lines: 45 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8itf5g$cqk$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> References: <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> Reply-To: scottdav@nospam.com NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager2.eng.sun.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!namche.sun.com!ebaynews1.EBay.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews1.eng.sun.com!voyager2!scottdav Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58311 In article 3DC32F6C@dallas.net, Charles Richmond writes: >Scott Davidson wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog >> in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this >> subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be >> by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would >> they make of ICs in 1945? >> >You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about >the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built >a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel >that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in >WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the >company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the >jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. >Ultimately, Germany would *have* to lose...they were matching their >production capability with the production capability of the rest of >the world practically. > >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Charles and Francis Richmond | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Actually, he said that the jet part would not be much of a mystery. The electronics, however, would be a different story. Perhaps the design details of the German jets were secret, but not the jets themselves. My father actually saw a few in flight in Europe before the War ended. We were talking about alien transistors, right? Scott ###### From: Greg Menke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:37:27 -0500 Lines: 46 Sender: gregm@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> X-Trace: saSTXknVtFlnlE52Y76v+goNNg/IG5aMdDn+E142M/IHRd8CyF0NtQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 16:29:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58317 Charles Richmond writes: > Scott Davidson wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog > > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this > > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be > > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would > > they make of ICs in 1945? > > > You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about > the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built > a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel > that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in > WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the > company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the > jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. > Ultimately, Germany would *have* to lose...they were matching their > production capability with the production capability of the rest of > the world practically. Some time ago I had a WW2 flight combat simulation game, "Chuck Yeager's Air Combat" or something, it was great fun to play. Hop in an F-16 and dogfight 15 or so ME-109's... lol.. IIRC, Yeager spoke about the 262, basically one flew past him, leaving his P-51 standing still- he was impressed & unable to do much of anything. I dont' remember if he discussed fighting one... One problem with the 262 was it needed pretty fancy parts, and German industry was suffering pretty badly by that time in the war; ie the 262 engines would give out after just a few missions because of part quality problems. But, also off topic, but related to tube issues, was the V-2 development- which was very innovative as well. To believe the book about it written by one of the principal project leads (forget his name...), they could target a few hundred yard radius in London from across the channel- radio guided most of the way (and presumably weather permitting). I can't judge his accuracy, but the story's a good read. Chilling stuff indeed. Gregm ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 21 Jun 00 17:10:08 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1122.207T435T10303640@sky.bus.com> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-843.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58278 In article peacock@simconv.com (Jack Peacock) writes: >"Roger Ivie" wrote in message >news:slrn8l1tk0.1g9s.rivie@server.logan.teraglobal... > >> In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: >> >> >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from >> >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the >> >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? >> >> The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. >> >> I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests >> claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen >> based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like >> that. > >Now if it had been the DEC Rainbow, then it would make sense... >aliens attempting to retard progress in computers by 20-30 years. That didn't work, though. Their next attempt, however, succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. The aliens made a successful landing this time - in Redmond, Washington. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 21 Jun 00 13:18:23 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <1773.207T1185T7984946@sky.bus.com> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-308.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58284 In article peacock@simconv.com (Jack Peacock) writes: >Consider this, if you were presented with truly advanced electronics in >1948, say a 3D monolithic photonic circuit built at a molecular level >utilizing quantum effects, what would you do with it? Anyone capable >of interstellar spacecraft would have electronic equivalents well in >advance of today's electronics. In 1948 you wouldn't even have the >tools to take it apart or the basic knowledge to understand what you >are looking at. What would a research scientist in 1848 do with a .18 >micron K7 chip? The late John W. Campbell addressed this issue on one of his editorials in Analog Science Fiction/Fact. The title, "No Copying Allowed", suggests his stance. He was taking to task the many SF writers in whose stories the Good Guys obtained alien artifacts of one form or another and figured them out enough to build devices with which to destroy or repel the Bug-Eyed Monsters. But he didn't even have to invoke aliens, just a time machine. What would an electronics engineer of the '20s do with a modern (which at the time meant the '60s) semiconductor device? To him it would look like a piece of absolutely pure silicon, because he wouldn't be able to detect the doping that gives it its essential properties. Reproducing the device would be impossible. A microwave transmitter's waveguides would be equally baffling: a series of pipes that start nowhere, go nowhere, and carry nothing. No radio of the time would be able to detect radiation in the multi-GHz range. Damn, it all seems so simple until some spoilsport points out things like this... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 08:47:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> X-Trace: E+ovsWxA8Oh15eDpnkwY/jEle7B0HhPqZNkwxXTD2E4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:40:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-34 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58297 In article <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Jack Peacock wrote: >> >> "Roger Ivie" wrote in message >> news:slrn8l1tk0.1g9s.rivie@server.logan.teraglobal... >> > In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: >> > >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from >> > >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the >> > >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? >> > >> > The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. >> > >> > I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests >> > claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen >> > based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like >> > that. >> > >> Now if it had been the DEC Rainbow, then it would make sense...aliens >> attempting to retard progress in computers by 20-30 years. >> >Yeah, it's too bad the Soviets did *not* try to steal the DEC Rainbow >technology...the cold war could have been over a lot sooner. > I disagree. Those guys were clever and managed to produce magic. Given bad and flakey hardware, they still could program miracles. If they had Rainbows, there's no telling what they could have done. On second thought, if we gave them the Rainbows with the proviso that they also had to take the product managers... /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 21 Jun 2000 19:36:03 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8ir5f3$o2c$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu X-Trace: flood.weeg.uiowa.edu 961616163 24652 128.255.28.3 (21 Jun 2000 19:36:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uiowa.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 2000 19:36:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58307 From article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, by "river" : > > I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? You got it! BS indeed. The point contact transistor is a vary natural followup to the point-contact (cat's whisker) diode, and point-contact diodes, after being ignored for several decades, were hot stuff in the World War II era because nothing else available at the time was fast enough to handle the jobs of microwave modulation and detection (I have several boxes of point-contact diodes from that era; they're quite interesting). If you're interested in point-contact diodes and want to study how they work, one obvious thing to do is to build a piece of apparatus with a point contact diode and a second point used as a probe (no current flows through the second point, you're just using it to monitor the voltage at a spot very close to the diode). The resulting apparatus looks just like the famous Bardeen, Shockley, Noyce transistor. Having this second contact, you could spend a long time doing interesting experiments, but one valuable experiment that comes to mind if you start thinking about what's going on is to use the second contact to perturb the charge carrier density. That's the experiment that leads straight to the point-contact transistor! Of course, this road is obvious only when you're looking at it in retrospect. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:52:29 +0100 Message-ID: <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961620983 nnrp-07:21631 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.vas-net.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newshub.bart.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58313 Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > The company is called "American ". They also have some Which explains everything. From their point of view all the technology did come from aliens. It's just that we prefer to be called not "aliens" but "British". -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: a.krennmair@aon.at (Andreas Krennmair) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: a.krennmair@aon.at X-Signature-Color: green Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Date: 21 Jun 2000 21:28:08 GMT Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.183.68.69 X-Trace: newsreader01.vienna.highway.telekom.at 961622888 17602 root@212.183.68.69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.highway.telekom.at!newsreader01.vienna.highway.telekom.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58294 On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:52:29 +0100, Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: > > The company is called "American ". They also have some > > Which explains everything. From their point of view all the technology > did come from aliens. It's just that we prefer to be called not "aliens" > but "British". So the MiG-15 is also based on alien technology?? Andreas Krennmair -- NO, you cannot dial 911, I'm downloading my mail!!! ###### From: Ron Wellsted Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:45:12 GMT Organization: Customer of gradwell dot com Ltd Lines: 43 Sender: rjwellsted@ppp-1-76.cvx5.telinco.net Message-ID: <20000621.21451200@ron-ws.wellsted.ukf.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-1-76.cvx5.telinco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: t2.gradwell.net 961651867 63501 212.1.152.76 (22 Jun 2000 05:31:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@gradwell.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 05:31:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Newsreader: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.1; Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!news.gradwell.net!tux!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58318 On 21/06/00, 14:35:45, Tim Shoppa wrote=20 regarding Re: The Transistor was alien technology?????: > Jack Peacock wrote: > > Consider this, if you were presented with truly advanced electronics= =20 in > > 1948, say a 3D monolithic photonic circuit built at a molecular leve= l > > utilizing quantum effects, what would you do with it? Anyone capabl= e=20 of > > interstellar spacecraft would have electronic equivalents well in > > advance of today's electronics. In 1948 you wouldn't even have the > > tools to take it apart or the basic knowledge to understand what you= =20 are > > looking at. > Where do you hook up filament voltage and B+ to it? Does it plug > into an octal socket? > Tim. What do you mean it behaves like a pentode, but it's only got 3=20 terminals! -9V? For the heater (filament)? What an odd voltage! It might work in=20 cars, but the current you'll need for power. Not to mention the=20 output transformer will have almost the same primary impedance as the=20 secondary It will never catch on, you mark my words. --=20 Ron Wellsted ron@wellsted.org.uk http://www.wellsted.org.uk ###### Message-ID: <39513AF4.C9C261D3@uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway Organization: University of Chicago - Anthropology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 sparc64) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.77 X-Trace: uchinews 961624820 128.135.145.77 (Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:00:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:00:20 CDT Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:00:20 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58270 "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: > > From their point of view all the technology > did come from aliens. It's just that we prefer to be called not "aliens" > but "British". Hurrah! Score one for old blighty! Simon (ex-pat') ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Lines: 16 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:20:20 EDT Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:18:26 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58331 "Tim Shoppa" wrote in message news:39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com... > > Where do you hook up filament voltage and B+ to it? Does it plug > into an octal socket? > I believe there was some attempt to retrofit transistors into tube sockets, though I doubt they were pin compatible. IIRC it took quite a few years to make a reliable cheap transistor horizontal flyback. I had a Zenith Color TV in the 70s that was nearly all solid state except for the mechanical tuner and tubes for the rectifier and flyback. Tubes never failed, it was the tuner that eventually wore out. AFAIK it's still running, the guy I gave it to put in a new tuner and hauled it off to his goat farm. Jack Peacock ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Lines: 18 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:34:48 EDT Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:32:54 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58332 "Roger Ivie" wrote in message news:slrn8l1tk0.1g9s.rivie@server.logan.teraglobal... > In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: > >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? > > The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. > > I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests > claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen > based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like > that. > Now if it had been the DEC Rainbow, then it would make sense...aliens attempting to retard progress in computers by 20-30 years. Jack Peacock ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 22 Jun 2000 00:19:58 GMT Organization: Neosoft (using Airnews.net!) Lines: 8 Message-ID: <29099DEEEA44D772.F05D95F1B1101FEE.0E0CB55F687F951D@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Jun 21 19:19:58 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !X^b01k-XFDM[,Q (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58285 On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:18:26 -0700, Jack Peacock wrote: >I believe there was some attempt to retrofit transistors into tube >sockets, though I doubt they were pin compatible. I can't speak to TVs, but there was a company that sold a kit of transistorized replacements for the tubes in the Collins S-line of ham radio gear for several years...dunno what became of them. They were pin-compatible. ###### From: Alistair@caribsurf.com (Alistair Gale) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 22 Jun 2000 01:12:12 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: alistair@caribsurf.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-567.newsdawg.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!Alistair Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58279 On 21 Jun 2000 21:28:08 GMT, Andreas Krennmair wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:52:29 +0100, Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) > wrote: >> > The company is called "American ". They also have some >> >> Which explains everything. From their point of view all the technology >> did come from aliens. It's just that we prefer to be called not "aliens" >> but "British". >So the MiG-15 is also based on alien technology?? > >Andreas Krennmair Well the jet engine on the MiG-15 was copied from Whittle's designs. (Oops I guess Frank was an alien not an ally - pinhead!) -- alistair The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face. -- Jack Handey ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <961645586.9140@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 03:46:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 961645603 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:46:43 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:46:43 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58316 Alistair Gale wrote: >Well the jet engine on the MiG-15 was copied from Whittle's designs. >(Oops I guess Frank was an alien not an ally - pinhead!) All gas turbine engines are based on Frank Whittle's pre-war work -- the developers of the German jet engines just read Whittle's patents, which weren't considered secret at the time. The Germans figured out axial flow compressors long before the British (and many British engines still had centrifugal compressors into the late 50s), but the principles remained true to Whittle's work. The secrecy of the jet engine finished after the war, with the the knowledge developed during the war combined with captured German technology. The Soviets also had access to German material. -- don ###### From: dowe@krikkit.localdomain (Dowe Keller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <961645586.9140@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) NNTP-Posting-Host: 2092341961.sierratel.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 2092341961.sierratel.com Message-ID: <39519136@news.sierratel.com> Date: 21 Jun 2000 21:08:22 -0700 X-Trace: 21 Jun 2000 21:08:22 -0700, 2092341961.sierratel.com Organization: news.sierratel.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.155.26.10!news.sierratel.com!dowe Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58283 On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 03:46:43 GMT, Don Stokes wrote: >Alistair Gale wrote: >>Well the jet engine on the MiG-15 was copied from Whittle's designs. >>(Oops I guess Frank was an alien not an ally - pinhead!) > >All gas turbine engines are based on Frank Whittle's pre-war work -- the >developers of the German jet engines just read Whittle's patents, which >weren't considered secret at the time. The Germans figured out axial >flow compressors long before the British (and many British engines still >had centrifugal compressors into the late 50s), but the principles >remained true to Whittle's work. > >The secrecy of the jet engine finished after the war, with the the >knowledge developed during the war combined with captured German >technology. The Soviets also had access to German material. > >-- don Yea, but the MIG-15 used an exact copy of a british engine. -- dowe@sierratel.com --- There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:51:36 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3951D398.144DCB37@dallas.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58263 "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: > > Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > > > The company is called "American ". They also have some > > Which explains everything. From their point of view all the technology > did come from aliens. It's just that we prefer to be called not "aliens" > but "British". > Hey, I have heard you called a hell of a lot worse... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:53:23 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58262 Jack Peacock wrote: > > "Roger Ivie" wrote in message > news:slrn8l1tk0.1g9s.rivie@server.logan.teraglobal... > > In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: > > >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > > >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > > >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? > > > > The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. > > > > I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests > > claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen > > based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like > > that. > > > Now if it had been the DEC Rainbow, then it would make sense...aliens > attempting to retard progress in computers by 20-30 years. > Yeah, it's too bad the Soviets did *not* try to steal the DEC Rainbow technology...the cold war could have been over a lot sooner. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: nasadowsk@mail.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 05:32:04 -0400 Organization: Student/biker/metalhead from HELL!!! Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <961645586.9140@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <39519136@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: wdM/5Q1sYk3vC/sr46US7ikOqWqi+Na6Y1td9A/jdvs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 09:32:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nasadowsk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58329 In article <39519136@news.sierratel.com>, dowe@krikkit.localdomain (Dowe Keller) wrote: > Yea, but the MIG-15 used an exact copy of a british engine. And early American ones were too. Pratt & Whittney's museum in East Hartford points out that their J-42 was a copy of the Rolls "Nene" engine. Of course, it wasn't because Pratt didn't have a clue how to build one (they didn't), but because they "respected the engineering talent of Rolls Royce" and wanted to "colaberate" on a jet engine with them. Anyway, it's a copy. I'm guessing the extent of the colaberation was Rolls mailing them the plans and maybe an engineer or two to help out. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:53:51 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8it28v$1iea$4@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> <29099DEEEA44D772.F05D95F1B1101FEE.0E0CB55F687F951D@lp.airnews.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!tornews.torolab.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58322 In <29099DEEEA44D772.F05D95F1B1101FEE.0E0CB55F687F951D@lp.airnews.net>, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:18:26 -0700, Jack Peacock wrote: >>I believe there was some attempt to retrofit transistors into tube >>sockets, though I doubt they were pin compatible. > >I can't speak to TVs, but there was a company that sold a kit of >transistorized replacements for the tubes in the Collins S-line of ham radio >gear for several years...dunno what became of them. They were >pin-compatible. There were a couple of problems of retrofitting transistors into circuits designed for tubes. Most tube circuits operated at a fairly high voltage, and the early transistors did not like high voltages (e.g., a typical tube might be operated at 200 volts, but the early transistors operated at something like 6 to 12 volts.). Early transistors were bipolar devices, and the theory of operation was based on a small current in the base controlling a larger current in the collector. Tubes, however, operated on the theory that a small voltage change on the base controlled a current in the plate. The difference is that the input impedance of a tube is extremely high, while that of a transistor is fairly low. Plus, the biasing circuits of the two are different. Also, the output impedance of a transistor is fairly low, while that of a tube is moderately high. There are also differences in interelectrode capacities, which can affect tuned circuit design. Thus, early attempts to directly replace tubes with transistors ran into problems. It was, of course, possible in most cases to redesign the circuits for transistors, but this was little help to an already existing device. When FET transistors became readily available, this allowed some substitution. The operation of an FET closely resembles the operating characteristic of a tube. However, by that time, most manufacturers had already made the switch to bipolar transistor design, and the market was rather limited for the solid-state, pin-compatible tube substitutes. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Message-ID: <39522C88.D5D5F96@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> <29099DEEEA44D772.F05D95F1B1101FEE.0E0CB55F687F951D@lp.airnews.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:13:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.50.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 961686790 63.15.50.15 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:13:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:13:10 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58282 Jay Maynard wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:18:26 -0700, Jack Peacock wrote: > >I believe there was some attempt to retrofit transistors into tube > >sockets, though I doubt they were pin compatible. > > I can't speak to TVs, but there was a company that sold a kit of > transistorized replacements for the tubes in the Collins S-line of ham radio > gear for several years...dunno what became of them. They were > pin-compatible. Heathkit, for their classic bench VTVM sold replacement "solid state" tubes, both were small metal cans which plugged into the 9-pin tube sockets. I recall there was also a minor wiring change required. After buying this "upgrade kit" I decided the unit was "cooler" with the tubes still in it and never upgraded it. I still have the meter and the upgrade kit however....... Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 23 Jun 00 15:04:33 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <971.209T1655T9045280@sky.bus.com> References: <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> <3953399D.C55837C5@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-713.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58357 In article <3953399D.C55837C5@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk (AKA Uncle Bob) writes: >One day they were on the way home and a Superfortress came up on the >Lanc. They slowly drew ahead and the pilot made a Very Rude Sign. The >Lanc pilot switched to the jet and overtook the SF with all four props >feathered... Since we're drifting this far off topic anyway, this reminds me of the fighter pilot flying escort for a B-52. He was making a nuisance of himself and finally boasted, "Anything you can do, I can do better." The B-52 pilot replied that he would rise to the challenge, but didn't appear to do anything. After a couple of minutes the fighter pilot asked, "What did you do?" The B-52 pilot replied, "I shut down three engines." (An alternate punchline has him saying, "I went downstairs for a coffee and had a chat with the radio operator.") -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 23 Jun 00 14:53:56 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <1039.209T2808T8935681@sky.bus.com> References: <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-715.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58370 In article <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> paul.grayson@virgin.net (Paul Grayson) writes: >Nick Spalding wrote: > >> Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: >> >> > jchausler wrote: >> > >> > > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact >> > > that the only jet planes active in WWII were German....... >> > >> > Er Gloucester Meteor? >> >> Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the >> Far East I don't know. > >Served in Europe towards the end of the war. Fought against V1 flying >bombs. > >I've also a photo somewhere of some Lockheed P-80s being towed through >a German street not long after the war was over. Weren't some of the last prop-driven fighters (Spitfire, Hurricane) able to catch up with a V1? I once read how some pilots got their jollies slipping a wingtip under a V1's wingtip and flipping it over. This would topple the V1's gyros, and it would tumble out of control into the sea. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:08:20 +0100 Message-ID: <39525614.D2ABB7C7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961698052 nnrp-14:1795 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58417 Greg Menke wrote: > industry was suffering pretty badly by that time in the war; ie the Mainly it was suffering from the RAF. > about it written by one of the principal project leads (forget his > name...), they could target a few hundred yard radius in London from > across the channel- radio guided most of the way (and presumably This is not quite true. Very few missiles had any sort of radio guidance. In the main the V2 was steered by the "strahlruders" (sp) in the jet stream during the initial powered phase in response to a simple gyro setup. Once the engine burned out it simply continued ballistic to the target and had a rather poor accuracy. The V1 was steered by a magnetic compass autopilot and an air log was used to record distance. When it reached the target the autopilot deflected the elevators to full down and the missile dived into the ground. Quite often the increased airspeed would cause a flameout in the Argus tube, leading to the myth about the fuel being cut off to make the missile descend. The whole story more or less is in RV Jones's book "Most Secret War." It includes the details of how the Nazis were spoofed into making errors in the autopilot settings, dropping many of the missiles into green fields. Very few of the impact craters are still visible. But when I was growing up there were holes in quite a few places in London. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:09:42 +0100 Message-ID: <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961698053 nnrp-14:1795 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58413 jchausler wrote: > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact that the > only > jet planes active in WWII were German....... Er Gloucester Meteor? -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.19.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:46:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.145.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 961699561 193.203.145.28 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:46:01 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:46:01 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58461 Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: > jchausler wrote: > > > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact that the > > only > > jet planes active in WWII were German....... > > Er Gloucester Meteor? Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the Far East I don't know. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Greg Menke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 22 Jun 2000 15:12:12 -0500 Lines: 29 Sender: gregm@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <85ya3x5vc3.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39525614.D2ABB7C7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: UFYq2y2Ue+OPVTPYP06IwolZfnsP9P2Il+KlvkuZs+zRvL//AC6Erw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2000 19:04:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58422 > > about it written by one of the principal project leads (forget his > > name...), they could target a few hundred yard radius in London from > > across the channel- radio guided most of the way (and presumably > > This is not quite true. Very few missiles had any sort of radio > guidance. In the main the V2 was steered by the "strahlruders" (sp) in > the jet stream during the initial powered phase in response to a simple > gyro setup. Once the engine burned out it simply continued ballistic to > the target and had a rather poor accuracy. Funny how accounts differ.. The author of the book discussed the guidance systems in some detail, he did suggest the rockets were guided more often than not- and discussed the problems caused by the subsequent jamming of the signals. He also asserted accuracy was fairly good but I suppose it was relative to the V1. I've wondered about the veracity of his account- and I do take his book with a grain of salt considering his involvement. > The whole story more or less is in RV Jones's book "Most Secret War." > It includes the details of how the Nazis were spoofed into making errors > in the autopilot settings, dropping many of the missiles into green > fields. lol.. he didn't talk about that part. Gregm ###### From: "GerardS" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:48:46 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.149.17.239 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 961727976 208.149.17.239 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:39:36 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:39:36 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58409 |"Charles Richmond" wrote: |> Scott Davidson wrote: |> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] |> There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog |> in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this |> subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be |> by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would |> they make of ICs in 1945? | You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about | the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built | a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel | that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in | WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the | company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the | jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. ------[---more-snipping---]------ No, WW-II couldn't have lasted much longer (in Europe). The Allies were developing the A-bomb for one reason, Germany. Gerard S. ###### X-Originating-Host: 193.131.222.100 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 25 From: martin2305 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: <0e0a2d9c.6926ce02@usw-ex0103-018.remarq.com> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> Bytes: 613 X-Wren-Trace: eJm8lJWMy4HK1MOFncCUn5mqjJCPmM+GmYfYmZ/DldLWzoDL2YjfxtvKz87ZiNre Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:33:18 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.18 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 961752932 10.0.2.18 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:35:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 02:35:32 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58426 Nick Spalding wrote: >Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: > >> jchausler wrote: >> >> > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact that the >> > only >> > jet planes active in WWII were German....... >> >> Er Gloucester Meteor? > >Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the >Far East I don't know. I *think* you're mistaken... I'm fairly sure they were found to be use in chasing V-1s in late 1944, BICBW. Martin Taylor Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.19.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:46:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.147.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 961753570 193.203.147.137 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:46:10 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:46:10 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58432 Nick Spalding wrote: > Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the > Far East I don't know. I was wrong - the Gloster (not Gloucester) Meteor entered service in July 1944. Many more Me262s were built and they saw more combat service. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:19:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3953399D.C55837C5@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961757647 nnrp-10:875 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58415 Nick Spalding wrote: > I was wrong - the Gloster (not Gloucester) Meteor entered service in > July 1944. Many more Me262s were built and they saw more combat > service. That sounds right. When I was an undergrad Frank Whittle used to come back to Cambridge once a year and give a lecture on jet engines. I thought that was what he said - but remember that my undergrad years were half way between WW2 and now. He also used to tell a story, illustrated with slides, of how they had fitted an early jet engine in the tail of a Lancaster. The were a bit concerned about reliability, so they used the Merlins to take off and land, switching to the jet for test flying at a safe altitude. One day they were on the way home and a Superfortress came up on the Lanc. They slowly drew ahead and the pilot made a Very Rude Sign. The Lanc pilot switched to the jet and overtook the SF with all four props feathered... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: Chris Weston Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:03:12 +0100 Organization: () Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: snorter.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: snorter.demon.co.uk:194.222.67.116 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961780034 nnrp-09:17016 NO-IDENT snorter.demon.co.uk:194.222.67.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S <2sKqwMKJUEOwdsCpCMPYex0iaV> Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!snorter.demon.co.uk!CWeston Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58423 In article <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com>, Scott Davidson writes >Actually, the issue was not the jet engines, which could have >been understood, but rather the electronics inside the cockpit, >which would have been a lot harder to understand. > >For instance (using more modern examples) they would not have the >technology to etch away the layers to even see the routing, even assuming >they had some reason to think there was interconnect in there. And >if they put a scope on the outputs (assuming they got the thing running) >they would see nothing. This might well be an old urban myth, and I have a strong suspicion that it is, but here goes - I was told a story about ten years ago about a Soviet pilot who decided to defect, and flew his fighter to the US (or US soil). The USAF took his fighter and dismantled it, to find out about the latest Soviet technology, and proceeded to laugh their dinner up through their noses at some of the stuff in there, valves and stuff. The tears of laughter flowed, and just before they called the President to tell him to go ahead and invade Leningrad, they had a bit of a think. Now, I don't know enough about this to say whether it's true or not, so I'll leave it to those of you who listened in Physics classes. The USAF techies realised that the electronics in the USSR jet were old, but would survive any electromagnetic pulse caused by a nuclear blast - whereas the US force would drop out of the sky in a Y2K-like catastrophe - the fighter was *designed* to be free of FET gear. You see, when I heard this (when I was a lad) it rang true just enough to believe, but every time I think of it now I just think it's bullshit. Now that this thread has meandered off topic enough, I can let it rip. Any takers? -- Chris Weston ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 31 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:13:39 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:11:59 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58469 "Chris Weston" wrote in message news:MJXe6RAQh5U5EwNb@snorter.demon.co.uk... > I was told a story about ten years ago about a Soviet pilot who decided > to defect, and flew his fighter to the US (or US soil). The USAF took > his fighter and dismantled it, to find out about the latest Soviet > technology, and proceeded to laugh their dinner up through their noses > at some of the stuff in there, valves and stuff. The tears of laughter > flowed, and just before they called the President to tell him to go > ahead and invade Leningrad, they had a bit of a think. > I think you are referencing the MiG-25 that landed in northern Japan when the pilot defected, I believe from a Soviet Far East base in Sakhalein. The plane was returned to the USSR but only after a delay of several days while various US agencies went over the plane, with the connivance of the Japanese government. Among other things they discovered the airframe was stainless steel instead of titanium (remember the MiG-25 was supposed to be an interceptor for the B-70 and SR-71), and that the electronics were 60's vintage. The Klimov engines could indeed hit Mach 3 but not without extended downtime afterward. As for EMP, it was a very real concern, though I believe Russia has been using solid-state avionics for quite a while now. I would not be surprised to find tubes in the old MiG-23s the Chinese still keep in service, but I doubt there are any avionics that old in Russia, they have always kept the very best for domestic consumption. EMP does fry electronics though...quite a few PDP-8s and PDP-11s were converted into plasma beneath the Nevada desert. Jack Peacock ###### Message-ID: <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> From: Paul Grayson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.4.0-test1 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:35:30 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.58.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 961789022 194.168.58.203 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:37:02 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:37:02 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!shippo.virgin.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58339 Nick Spalding wrote: > > Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: > > > jchausler wrote: > > > > > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact that the > > > only > > > jet planes active in WWII were German....... > > > > Er Gloucester Meteor? > > Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the > Far East I don't know. Served in Europe towards the end of the war. Fought against V1 flying bombs. I've also a photo somewhere of some Lockheed P-80s being towed through a German street not long after the war was over. -- Paul Grayson - paul.grayson@virgin.net Squawk! Pieces of Nine! Squawk! Pieces of Nine! SYSTEM HALTED - PARROTTY ERROR. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 41 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:54:07 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:54:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58472 In article , Chris Weston wrote: >This might well be an old urban myth, and I have a strong suspicion that >it is, but here goes - > >I was told a story about ten years ago about a Soviet pilot who decided >to defect, and flew his fighter to the US (or US soil). The USAF took >his fighter and dismantled it, to find out about the latest Soviet >technology, and proceeded to laugh their dinner up through their noses >at some of the stuff in there, valves and stuff. The tears of laughter >flowed, and just before they called the President to tell him to go >ahead and invade Leningrad, they had a bit of a think. > >Now, I don't know enough about this to say whether it's true or not, so >I'll leave it to those of you who listened in Physics classes. The USAF >techies realised that the electronics in the USSR jet were old, but >would survive any electromagnetic pulse caused by a nuclear blast - >whereas the US force would drop out of the sky in a Y2K-like catastrophe >- the fighter was *designed* to be free of FET gear. > >You see, when I heard this (when I was a lad) it rang true just enough >to believe, but every time I think of it now I just think it's bullshit. >Now that this thread has meandered off topic enough, I can let it rip. I used to work with a woman who worked with folks from the Soviet space program during the 1980s; from listening to her, it sounds like the Soviets were much less into high-tech than the Americans, and much more into getting the job done. That is, if there was a high-tech and a low-tech way of doing a job, NASA tended to choose the high-tech way and scorn the low-tech way, while the Soviet space program tended to do it the low-tech way. This probably has a lot to do with why the Soviet space program has been so much more successful than the American space program, despite unavailability of resources. Perhaps this is related to your MiG story. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: quirk@swcp.com (Taki Kogoma) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:16:50 -0600 Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorrow Afternoon Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8j0nki$dv@boofura.swcp.com> References: <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: boofura.swcp.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.136.4.MISMATCH!feeder.swcp.com!sloth.swcp.com!boofura.swcp.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58383 On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:35:30 +0100, did Paul Grayson , to alt.folklore.computers decree... >Nick Spalding wrote: >> Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: >> > jchausler wrote: >> > > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact that the >> > > only >> > > jet planes active in WWII were German....... >> > >> > Er Gloucester Meteor? >> >> Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the >> Far East I don't know. > >Served in Europe towards the end of the war. Fought against V1 flying >bombs. > >I've also a photo somewhere of some Lockheed P-80s being towed through a >German street not long after the war was over. The P-80 was undergoing operational trials in Italy c. V-E Day. -- Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be quirk @ swcp.com | superior to what I have now." Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:21:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 961806097 24.91.12.15 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:21:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:21:37 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58445 scottdav@nospam.com (Scott Davidson) writes: And >if they put a scope on the outputs (assuming they got the thing running) >they would see nothing. Well, not all signals are toggling at Microwave rates! My father brought home an old oscilloscope from work in the mid-60s for me. 150 Khz, err, I guess it said 150 kc. There are a lot of signals these days that wouldn't make it past the probe.... -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:22:10 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com> References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58344 Kragen Sitaker wrote: > This probably has a lot to do with why the Soviet space program has > been so much more successful than the American space program, despite > unavailability of resources. Perhaps this is related to your MiG story. Oh? how many men have they sent to the MOON? And, how many have come BACK? Define SUCCESS! Bill Tucson, AZ ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> <1039.209T2808T8935681@sky.bus.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <961813966.532827@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-4.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:31:45 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 961813861 204.92.64.17 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:31:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:31:01 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58392 The later version Spitfires (bubble canopied), maybe, the Hurricane, probably not. I believe the best at that sortof thing was the Hawker Tempest (radial engined, huge, fast). "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:1039.209T2808T8935681@sky.bus.com... > In article <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> paul.grayson@virgin.net > (Paul Grayson) writes: > > >Nick Spalding wrote: > > > >> Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: > >> > >> > jchausler wrote: > >> > > >> > > have any propellers........ Bob, of course, ignored that fact > >> > > that the only jet planes active in WWII were German....... > >> > > >> > Er Gloucester Meteor? > >> > >> Not in service before VE day I think. Whether they ever went to the > >> Far East I don't know. > > > >Served in Europe towards the end of the war. Fought against V1 flying > >bombs. > > > >I've also a photo somewhere of some Lockheed P-80s being towed through > >a German street not long after the war was over. > > Weren't some of the last prop-driven fighters (Spitfire, Hurricane) > able to catch up with a V1? I once read how some pilots got their > jollies slipping a wingtip under a V1's wingtip and flipping it over. > This would topple the V1's gyros, and it would tumble out of control > into the sea. > > -- > cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) > Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. > ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 24 Jun 2000 02:50:55 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8j17mf$gat$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 961815055 16733 134.117.136.30 (24 Jun 2000 02:50:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 2000 02:50:55 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58412 bill_h (bill_h@azstarnet.com) writes: > Kragen Sitaker wrote: > >> This probably has a lot to do with why the Soviet space program has >> been so much more successful than the American space program, despite >> unavailability of resources. Perhaps this is related to your MiG story. > > Oh? how many men have they sent to the MOON? And, how many have come > BACK? > > Define SUCCESS! IIRC, the Luna program was a success for the Russkies. Didn't need men, but got the job done. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 55 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:02:01 EDT Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:02:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58468 In article <39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com>, bill_h wrote: >Kragen Sitaker wrote: > >> This probably has a lot to do with why the Soviet space program has >> been so much more successful than the American space program, despite >> unavailability of resources. Perhaps this is related to your MiG story. > >Oh? how many men have they sent to the MOON? And, how many have come >BACK? > >Define SUCCESS! It does indeed depend on one's definition of success. They did launch the first satellite, the first satellite with a living creature, the first space probe to escape Earth's gravity, the first space probe to land on the moon (about ten years before Neil Armstrong), the first satellites to photograph the far side of the moon, the first man in space (in orbit --- unlike the month-later suborbital flight of Alan Shepard, America's first astronaut), the first *woman* in space, the first spacewalk, the first space probe to Venus, the first spacecraft to soft-land on the moon, the first spacecraft to orbit the moon, the first space probe to photograph the Earth from the moon, the first spacecraft to accidentally kill an astronaut (oops!), the first Venusian probe to return useful data from inside Venus's atmosphere, the first spacecraft to orbit the moon and return, the first in-space docking, the first robotic probe to return lunar soil to Earth, the first space probe to soft-land on Venus, the first manned space station (whose occupants accidentally died on reentry), the first space probe to send pictures of Venus back to Earth, the first space probe to do a Venusian soil analysis, and the first man to spend a year in space. To be sure, the US also has an impressive list of firsts, including the first person on the moon and a number of firsts related to Mars and outer-solar-system exploration and violence in space. The Russian space program still has a space station in space --- something the US hasn't had since the 1970s. It still works, despite being 14 years old and badly in need of repairs (remember, the country that was taking care of it collapsed eight years ago). NASA's single-minded pursuit of the ambitious Space Shuttle project cost it years of progress on other fronts, as the shuttle first overran its schedule and then exploded, nearly shutting down the space program for years. Still, after spending some time reading about the Soviet space program while writing this post, I'm no longer as enthusiastic about it as I was. :) -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <8HW45.107$5L3.2030@insync> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:20:26 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.113.110.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@insync.net X-Trace: insync 961820484 209.113.110.154 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:24 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:24 CDT Organization: Insync Internet Services, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!korova.insync.net!insync!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58453 Scott Davidson wrote in message <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com>... >There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog >in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this >subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be >by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. What would >they make of ICs in 1945? > > It was a fantastic article - slight correction though...it wasn't a jet fighter, it was a ramjet powered drone used to monitor a nuclear test, and I believe it wnet back further than WWII, because he made a point of the fact that they would be totally perplexed at the propulsion technique. He also pointed out that the materials in the semiconductors, though "doped" with imputies from our point of view, would be more pure than the purest silicon and germanium they could produce at that time. ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:22:45 +0100 Message-ID: <395461C5.26783FB7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> <1039.209T2808T8935681@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961831772 nnrp-03:12006 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58414 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> paul.grayson@virgin.net > Weren't some of the last prop-driven fighters (Spitfire, Hurricane) > able to catch up with a V1? I once read how some pilots got their This was just possible. The trick was not to touch the missile, but to overlap the wings so that lift increased on one side to the point that the autopilot couldn't cope and over it went. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 11:00:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8ivq4n$7oh$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> X-Trace: okTUYV4XuPHzQwlTib0JJcAXQ/HHGmSkXAjMW5PuckA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:53:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-79 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58389 In article <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >Jack Peacock wrote: >> >> >> >> "Roger Ivie" wrote in message >> >> news:slrn8l1tk0.1g9s.rivie@server.logan.teraglobal... >> >> > In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: >> >> > >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from >> >> > >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the >> >> > >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? >> >> > >> >> > The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. >> >> > >> >> > I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests >> >> > claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen >> >> > based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like >> >> > that. >> >> > >> >> Now if it had been the DEC Rainbow, then it would make sense...aliens >> >> attempting to retard progress in computers by 20-30 years. >> >> >> >Yeah, it's too bad the Soviets did *not* try to steal the DEC Rainbow >> >technology...the cold war could have been over a lot sooner. >> > >> I disagree. Those guys were clever and managed to produce >> magic. Given bad and flakey hardware, they still could >> program miracles. If they had Rainbows, there's no telling >> what they could have done. On second thought, if we gave >> them the Rainbows with the proviso that they also had >> to take the product managers... >> >Yeah, the managers too...and think about it. The Soviets could *not* >nuke the US because they would have to buy their *formatted* floppy >diskettes from DEC... Or wait for the work order to grace every desk in the plant before getting hooked up to the net. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:43:35 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 41 Message-ID: <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58335 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >Jack Peacock wrote: > >> > >> "Roger Ivie" wrote in message > >> news:slrn8l1tk0.1g9s.rivie@server.logan.teraglobal... > >> > In article <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au>, river wrote: > >> > >I read the other day that the transistor could of come from > >> > >alien technology - I suppose that means it came from the > >> > >Roswell crash. Isn't this BS? > >> > > >> > The world just hasn't been the same since Art Bell retired. > >> > > >> > I was once listening to Art Bell when I heard one of his guests > >> > claim that the PDP-1 architecture had been handed to Ken Olsen > >> > based on the Roswell crash. You can't _buy_ entertainment like > >> > that. > >> > > >> Now if it had been the DEC Rainbow, then it would make sense...aliens > >> attempting to retard progress in computers by 20-30 years. > >> > >Yeah, it's too bad the Soviets did *not* try to steal the DEC Rainbow > >technology...the cold war could have been over a lot sooner. > > > I disagree. Those guys were clever and managed to produce > magic. Given bad and flakey hardware, they still could > program miracles. If they had Rainbows, there's no telling > what they could have done. On second thought, if we gave > them the Rainbows with the proviso that they also had > to take the product managers... > Yeah, the managers too...and think about it. The Soviets could *not* nuke the US because they would have to buy their *formatted* floppy diskettes from DEC... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <395489EE.F09F0000@virgin.net> From: Paul Grayson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.4.0-test1 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <39522E6D.4BA8A0F1@earthlink.net> <39525666.63881A8D@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <2kn4ls8altddd7qtu6jssj2pavf54be1dq@4ax.com> <3953BC02.C6637E34@virgin.net> <1039.209T2808T8935681@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:14:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.56.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 961861557 194.168.56.186 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:45:57 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:45:57 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!shippo.virgin.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58475 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > >Served in Europe towards the end of the war. Fought against V1 flying > >bombs. > > > >I've also a photo somewhere of some Lockheed P-80s being towed through > >a German street not long after the war was over. > > Weren't some of the last prop-driven fighters (Spitfire, Hurricane) > able to catch up with a V1? I once read how some pilots got their > jollies slipping a wingtip under a V1's wingtip and flipping it over. > This would topple the V1's gyros, and it would tumble out of control > into the sea. > Late model Spitfires, particularly those with the Griffon Engine and the Hawker Tempest (radial or inline model) were used, together with the Meteor. The Hurricane was obsolete by then. We are drifting seriously off topic - never mind! -- Paul Grayson - paul.grayson@virgin.net Squawk! Pieces of Nine! Squawk! Pieces of Nine! SYSTEM HALTED - PARROTTY ERROR. ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 13 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:13:22 EDT Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:11:46 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58495 "bill_h" wrote in message news:39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com... > Oh? how many men have they sent to the MOON? And, how many have come > BACK? > > Define SUCCESS! > How about being able to put a space station in orbit and not have it fall out of the sky over Australia? Funny how with all the criticism about the Russkies being late on the new space station we never hear about Skylab these days. Jack Peacock ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:54:54 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39512B0D.98586F98@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <961645586.9140@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <39519136@news.sierratel.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.138.150 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.138.150 X-Trace: 24 Jun 2000 10:54:55 -0700, 207.148.138.150 Lines: 25 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.138.150 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58494 On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 05:32:04 -0400, nasadowsk@mail.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski) wrote: >In article <39519136@news.sierratel.com>, dowe@krikkit.localdomain (Dowe >Keller) wrote: > >> Yea, but the MIG-15 used an exact copy of a british engine. > >And early American ones were too. Pratt & Whittney's museum in East >Hartford points out that their J-42 was a copy of the Rolls "Nene" >engine. Of course, it wasn't because Pratt didn't have a clue how to >build one (they didn't), but because they "respected the engineering >talent of Rolls Royce" and wanted to "colaberate" on a jet engine with >them. Anyway, it's a copy. I'm guessing the extent of the colaberation >was Rolls mailing them the plans and maybe an engineer or two to help out. IIRC it was RR's ability to machine extremely accurately that P&W learned from their collaboration. Once they had that down, they could build an engine that would not demolish the test bed, from RR's design. The rest was tuning. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: Judge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:09:03 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58498 >Some time ago I had a WW2 flight combat simulation game, "Chuck >Yeager's Air Combat" or something, it was great fun to play. Hop in >an F-16 and dogfight 15 or so ME-109's... lol.. Yeager did in fact shoot down a Me-262 Sturmvoegel ("stormbird"). Was this due to his superior skill as a fighter pilot? No... it should be credited to his unholy streak of luck! You see, the 262 was landing, and Chuck shot him in the back... (it was war! as in - "anything fair in love and..") The Germans would have won the war handily had they had two things - one, a better leader. Two, fuel and other raw materials. Hitler (predicted by Nostradamus hundreds of years earlier, only missing his name by one letter - "Hisler") it must be remembered, sent the inventors of the jet airplane to the Russian Front as common foot soldiers - for their continuing development on the jet platform even after he said it was not needed and to be forgotten. Lucky for him (and us, indirectly) they survived almost 3 years on the frozen tundra to be returned post haste, and get back to work on the revolutionary war machine. The 262 was so good, even though it only served for a short, short time - it has been regarded as the greatest threat of WW2. Considering the atomic bomb's one-size-kills-all potential, this is really saying something. Also consider the F86 Sabre and the MiG-15's designs - very similar, no? Because they were both based on captured German research. The electronics, which is what this thread is based on, would have dumbfounded the Allied scientists before the end of the war. However with the end of the war bringing together the best of all minds available - it would be interesting how they would handle LCD screens, CPU's, ram chips, etc. Imagine where we would be today had Tesla been funded and fueled by Government money and power.. I am getting misty eyed just thinking about it. This is my first time reading this group, as I am a (gasp, hiss) Wintel kinda guy. I had as a kid played with some of the "good old days" machines, but most of my time was spent playing with cars and chasing women. I had more luck with cars than women, much to my chagrin. Today, I spend more time tweaking the bios than tuning the hot rod but I enjoy reading about you're opinions, memories and thoughts. On a last note - For those of you who might or do enjoy combat aircraft and technology, take a peek at a certain mission in Air Warrior 3. Its where you take a 262 out alone against a fully armed B-17 bomber.. guess what - that 17 will whip your ass every time! You see, the 262's speed is in fact its weakness when attempting to dogfight a "deathstar" (a deathstar is a bomber with a full complement of gunners). Also remember my favorite of the BUF's - the B-36 peacemaker. The great handshake of technology - 6 turnin' and 4 burnin' - piston engines and jet engines on the same aircraft. At high altitudes this, the largest operational warplane of all time, could out fly and maneuver a MiG. The wings on this badboy were over 7 feet thick! Its weight is off the scale, and its wingspan was damn near a football field in length. And a transistor is how big? Aint technology grand. Judge >IIRC, Yeager spoke about the 262, basically one flew past him, leaving >his P-51 standing still- he was impressed & unable to do much of >anything. I dont' remember if he discussed fighting one... > >One problem with the 262 was it needed pretty fancy parts, and German >industry was suffering pretty badly by that time in the war; ie the >262 engines would give out after just a few missions because of part >quality problems. > >But, also off topic, but related to tube issues, was the V-2 >development- which was very innovative as well. To believe the book >about it written by one of the principal project leads (forget his >name...), they could target a few hundred yard radius in London from >across the channel- radio guided most of the way (and presumably >weather permitting). I can't judge his accuracy, but the story's a >good read. Chilling stuff indeed. > >Gregm ###### From: azz@cartman.azz.net (Adam Sampson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Lines: 13 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:17:04 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.20.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 961883420 212.159.20.237 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:50:20 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:50:20 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!btnet-peer0!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!azz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58534 In article , Kragen Sitaker wrote: >That is, if there was a high-tech and a low-tech way of doing a job, >NASA tended to choose the high-tech way and scorn the low-tech way, >while the Soviet space program tended to do it the low-tech way. My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the "Space Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just used pencils. -- Adam Sampson azz@gnu.org ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:08:07 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 101 Message-ID: <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58503 Judge wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] > > The Germans would have won the war handily had they had two things - > one, a better leader. Two, fuel and other raw materials. Hitler > (predicted by Nostradamus hundreds of years earlier, only missing his > name by one letter - "Hisler") > Actually, Nostradamus called the name "Hister", and some believe it is referring to the Hister River...but I will give him credit for predicting Hitler. > > it must be remembered, sent the > inventors of the jet airplane to the Russian Front as common foot > soldiers - for their continuing development on the jet platform even > after he said it was not needed and to be forgotten. Lucky for him > (and us, indirectly) they survived almost 3 years on the frozen tundra > to be returned post haste, and get back to work on the revolutionary > war machine. The 262 was so good, even though it only served for a > short, short time - it has been regarded as the greatest threat of > WW2. Considering the atomic bomb's one-size-kills-all potential, this > is really saying something. > Yes, if Hitler had given more importance to German technical innovations like the V2 rocket and the jet fighters earlier in the war, he could have made a much better fight out of it. But the allies could out-produce the Germans...after all, *not* many allied airplane factories were being bombed. > > Also consider the F86 Sabre and the MiG-15's designs - very similar, > no? Because they were both based on captured German research. > Yes, and a lot of Russian and U.S. rocket and bomb research after WW II was based on German work...and much of it done for Russia and the U.S. by the German scientists themselves. > > The electronics, which is what this thread is based on, would have > dumbfounded the Allied scientists before the end of the war. However > with the end of the war bringing together the best of all minds > available - it would be interesting how they would handle LCD screens, > CPU's, ram chips, etc. Imagine where we would be today had Tesla been > funded and fueled by Government money and power.. I am getting misty > eyed just thinking about it. > Yes, but in the 1940's, Tesla was feeding the pidgoens on the steps of the New York City Library...Tesla died alone in his room, a forgotten man...even after all he accomplished in his life. > > This is my first time reading this group, as I am a (gasp, hiss) > Wintel kinda guy. I had as a kid played with some of the "good old > days" machines, but most of my time was spent playing with cars and > chasing women. I had more luck with cars than women, much to my > chagrin. Today, I spend more time tweaking the bios than tuning the > hot rod but I enjoy reading about you're opinions, memories and > thoughts. > Get a Mac, or at least a Linux box...you have to re-load the OS a lot less often. IMHO being a Wintel kinda guy means you do *not* know what you are doing, and just follow along with the crowd who are following Mr. Bill over the cliff... > > On a last note - For those of you who might or do enjoy combat > aircraft and technology, take a peek at a certain mission in Air > Warrior 3. Its where you take a 262 out alone against a fully armed > B-17 bomber.. guess what - that 17 will whip your ass every time! You > see, the 262's speed is in fact its weakness when attempting to > dogfight a "deathstar" (a deathstar is a bomber with a full complement > of gunners). > I am *not* so sure that the ME-262 did so bad against the B-17...I am pretty sure it did well against Allied fighter planes. > > Also remember my favorite of the BUF's - the B-36 peacemaker. The > great handshake of technology - 6 turnin' and 4 burnin' - piston > engines and jet engines on the same aircraft. At high altitudes this, > the largest operational warplane of all time, could out fly and > maneuver a MiG. The wings on this badboy were over 7 feet thick! Its > weight is off the scale, and its wingspan was damn near a football > field in length. > The Peacemaker seemed a plane without a mission...at least it *never* actually bombed anyone... It was too big, too noisy, too costly, and used too much fuel. When they flew it to the SAC bases in Alaska, it would *not* fit into the hangers, which were designed for those dinky little B-29's. So to keep the wings and fuel from freezing, they had to cover it with a tarp and pump in hot air. IMHO it was the Baby Huey of the Air Force at that time... (Baby Huey was an over-sized cartoon character with a child-like brain.) > > And a transistor is how big? Aint technology grand. > Making it smaller and smaller and smaller is the point...unfortunately, with the common proliferation of computer power, most people have lost any respect they have had for the ability to calculate and solve fantastic problems... It is amazing how fast people can absorb new technology. It only seems to stay "gee-whiz" for about two weeks... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-64.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:01:13 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 961892892 204.92.64.17 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:28:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:28:12 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58514 > Yes, if Hitler had given more importance to German technical innovations > like the V2 rocket and the jet fighters earlier in the war, he could have > made a much better fight out of it. . . . true, but the appearance of jet powered fighters in the sky over Britain would've seen an amazing increase in funding to Frank Whittle, getting a Meteor type up and running sooner. That and the P-59 would've been groundwork for better and faster craft - we may have even seen Sabres and Vampires in production before war's end. >But the allies could out-produce the Germans...after all, *not* many allied >airplane factories were being bombed. which might have been different had the Arado 234 had gotten into production sooner. It was designed specifically to "bomb New York"(A.Hitler). The Germans were also, according to history, very close to producing an atomic bomb, themselves (of course this is very much a "horseshoes and hand grenades" type of thing). I think the world was very lucky WWII did not go on much longer- most of us would still be "glowing in the dark" http://www.stormbirds.com/classic/index.htm - a resurrection of technology that was, or dictatorship that could've been ? >Get a Mac, or at least a Linux box...you have to re-load the OS a lot >less often. IMHO being a Wintel kinda guy means you do *not* know what >you are doing, and just follow along with the crowd who are following >Mr. Bill over the cliff... Lemme guess, your're running Linux or BSD (out and out ripoffs of UNIX (a mini/mainframe distributed server os designed specifically for multiple users on character-based dumb terminals)) standalone, with a GUI, probably logged on as "root", too for convenience. Concurrent with the "mainstreaming"(apologies to the English language) of Linux, and the porting over of applications with proprietary/special/competing/bloated/nonsensical resource requirements, in a couple of years, the users who want to "remain current"(ie: run all the applications that are presently on their wintel boxes) will be stuck in at least as much daisychained kludgefixing as a win user, probably more. And when did a Mac user *ever* have to know what he's doing ? Regards Rick ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 25 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:09:06 EDT Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:09:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58543 In article , Judge wrote: > . . . Hitler >(predicted by Nostradamus hundreds of years earlier, only missing his >name by one letter - "Hisler") it must be remembered, sent the >inventors . . . > >This is my first time reading this group, as I am a (gasp, hiss) >Wintel kinda guy. I had as a kid played with some of the "good old >days" machines, but most of my time was spent playing with cars and >chasing women. I had more luck with cars than women, much to my >chagrin. Today, I spend more time tweaking the bios than tuning the >hot rod but I enjoy reading about you're opinions, memories and >thoughts. I don't hang out with Wintel kinda guys much these days; are bad luck with women and belief in Nostradamus common in this crowd? :) Just joking, of course. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: "W. Ivey" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:59:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.194.203.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 961909163 208.194.203.6 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:59:23 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:59:23 CDT Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58516 Adam Sampson wrote in message news:slrn8l9up0.cc.azz@cartman.azz.net... > In article , Kragen > Sitaker wrote: > >That is, if there was a high-tech and a low-tech way of doing a job, > >NASA tended to choose the high-tech way and scorn the low-tech way, > >while the Soviet space program tended to do it the low-tech way. > > My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the "Space > Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just used pencils. Urban Legend Alert: NASA didn't fund the Space Pen. Fisher patented it in 1965 after working on it for some time. NASA tested it for two years and accepted it for use on Apollo 7 in 1968, but they didn't pay for development. (Not that Fisher didn't reap rewards from being associated with the space program.) -Wm ###### From: Judge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:34:50 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58536 >http://www.stormbirds.com/classic/index.htm - a resurrection of technology >that was, or dictatorship that could've been ? ahhh... I didnt put this in, but I was aware of it. Perhaps when one of these new/old birds take to the skies, we can get a test against a Mig15 or Sabre - since there are alot of those still flying. Again - off topic, but a fella can dream :) >>Get a Mac, or at least a Linux box...you have to re-load the OS a lot >>less often. IMHO being a Wintel kinda guy means you do *not* know what >>you are doing, and just follow along with the crowd who are following >>Mr. Bill over the cliff... > > >Lemme guess, your're running Linux or BSD (out and out ripoffs of UNIX (a >mini/mainframe distributed server os designed specifically for multiple >users on character-based dumb terminals)) standalone, with a GUI, probably >logged on as "root", too for convenience. > > >Concurrent with the "mainstreaming"(apologies to the English language) of >Linux, and the porting over of applications with >proprietary/special/competing/bloated/nonsensical resource requirements, >in a couple of years, the users who want to "remain current"(ie: run all the >applications that are presently on their wintel boxes) will be stuck in at >least as much daisychained kludgefixing as a win user, probably more. > >And when did a Mac user *ever* have to know what he's doing ? >Regards >Rick Yeah, what he said :) Rick, you said it all, no sense adding to it. A Mac? a MAC? Say, isnt that middle rip-off? I mean, you had Xerox then Apple, THEN Windows, then, aww forget it.. Judge ###### From: greg@apple2.com.invalid Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Organization: II Infinitum References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: &@UA7$)=n9C7!qu%-5s},3tR@NEy+B>8PW"^,8?A>%."0{J2c1Yr]NKw';5/( J\r@/{UADjCdE~iRnOEOfbre(/1Y=$TS3Wt7B`a4sz, Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 00:48:54 CDT X-Trace: sv2-QoUZPPrzV6i259JeW5NpcAdXV0HHh5k9yLznYEDbOpYdmYip45ZiPfZLm+6ZVat4sgj7yB84Jf3gUiF!rP6DeU31IqNPO6ElHoZ3eN0Pig== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 00:49:00 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!greg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58533 In article , azz@cartman.azz.net (Adam Sampson) wrote: > My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the > "Space Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just > used pencils. And have all that graphite dust and eraser rubbings floating around? And waste mass on vacuum-assisted pencil sharpeners? -- __ _____________ __ \ \_\ \__ __/ /_/ / .\ __ \ | | / __ /---------------------------------------------------- ^ \_\ \_\|_|/_/ /_/ Don't mail me, I'll mail you. ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:45:23 +0100 Message-ID: <3955FEE3.DB510A1B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 961937830 nnrp-01:23461 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58590 "W. Ivey" wrote: > development. (Not that Fisher didn't reap rewards from being associated > with the space program.) -Wm The Fisher pens also worked well in incremental plotters. Ordinary ballpoints couldn't feed ink fast enough for really high speed plotting and the Rotring pens could be awkward and messy. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### Sender: bereza@pinky.bereza.localnet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> From: Bill Bereza Message-ID: <87pup5recw.fsf@pinky.bereza.localnet> Organization: http://www.pobox.com/~bereza/ Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:04:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.215.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 961945487 24.4.215.67 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:04:47 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:04:47 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58597 Judge writes: > Yeager did in fact shoot down a Me-262 Sturmvoegel ("stormbird"). Was > this due to his superior skill as a fighter pilot? No... it should be > credited to his unholy streak of luck! You see, the 262 was landing, > and Chuck shot him in the back... (it was war! as in - "anything fair > in love and..") > That was standard procedure for shooting down 262s. The jet engines were slow at acceleration, so they were vulnerable when landing or taking off. Of course, shooting them on the ground was another good tactic. -- Bill Bereza bereza@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~bereza/ Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes. (H. D. Thoreau) ###### From: adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 25 Jun 2000 11:56:55 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8j5a47$6iu$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 961948616 13593 166.84.0.228 (25 Jun 2000 15:56:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:56:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58564 In article , Kragen Sitaker wrote: >In article , >Chris Weston wrote: >>This might well be an old urban myth, and I have a strong suspicion that >>it is, but here goes - >> >>I was told a story about ten years ago about a Soviet pilot who decided >>to defect, and flew his fighter to the US (or US soil). The USAF took >>his fighter and dismantled it, to find out about the latest Soviet >>technology, and proceeded to laugh their dinner up through their noses >>at some of the stuff in there, valves and stuff. The tears of laughter >>flowed, and just before they called the President to tell him to go >>ahead and invade Leningrad, they had a bit of a think. >> >>Now, I don't know enough about this to say whether it's true or not, so >>I'll leave it to those of you who listened in Physics classes. The USAF >>techies realised that the electronics in the USSR jet were old, but >>would survive any electromagnetic pulse caused by a nuclear blast - >>whereas the US force would drop out of the sky in a Y2K-like catastrophe >>- the fighter was *designed* to be free of FET gear. >> >>You see, when I heard this (when I was a lad) it rang true just enough >>to believe, but every time I think of it now I just think it's bullshit. >>Now that this thread has meandered off topic enough, I can let it rip. > >I used to work with a woman who worked with folks from the Soviet space >program during the 1980s; from listening to her, it sounds like the >Soviets were much less into high-tech than the Americans, and much more >into getting the job done. > >That is, if there was a high-tech and a low-tech way of doing a job, >NASA tended to choose the high-tech way and scorn the low-tech way, >while the Soviet space program tended to do it the low-tech way. > >This probably has a lot to do with why the Soviet space program has >been so much more successful than the American space program, despite >unavailability of resources. Perhaps this is related to your MiG story. >-- This also makes a knee-jerk justification of a western strategic antiballistic missile system prablematic. And we do have a lot of knees, and jerks. -- Al Dykes ----------- adykes@panix.com ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:43:29 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 67 Message-ID: <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.13.28.125!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58546 Judge wrote: > > >http://www.stormbirds.com/classic/index.htm - a resurrection of technology > >that was, or dictatorship that could've been ? > > ahhh... I didnt put this in, but I was aware of it. Perhaps when one > of these new/old birds take to the skies, we can get a test against a > Mig15 or Sabre - since there are alot of those still flying. Again - > off topic, but a fella can dream :) > > >>Get a Mac, or at least a Linux box...you have to re-load the OS a lot > >>less often. IMHO being a Wintel kinda guy means you do *not* know what > >>you are doing, and just follow along with the crowd who are following > >>Mr. Bill over the cliff... > > > > > >Lemme guess, your're running Linux or BSD (out and out ripoffs of UNIX (a > >mini/mainframe distributed server os designed specifically for multiple > >users on character-based dumb terminals)) standalone, with a GUI, probably > >logged on as "root", too for convenience. > > > > > >Concurrent with the "mainstreaming"(apologies to the English language) of > >Linux, and the porting over of applications with > >proprietary/special/competing/bloated/nonsensical resource requirements, > >in a couple of years, the users who want to "remain current"(ie: run all the > >applications that are presently on their wintel boxes) will be stuck in at > >least as much daisychained kludgefixing as a win user, probably more. > > > >And when did a Mac user *ever* have to know what he's doing ? > >Regards > >Rick > > Yeah, what he said :) > > Rick, you said it all, no sense adding to it. A Mac? a MAC? Say, isnt > that middle rip-off? I mean, you had Xerox then Apple, THEN Windows, > then, aww forget it.. > As for Linux and BSD being "rip-offs"...much of the code in System V Release 4 came from the BSD version that was coded at Berkeley. So the best you could say here is cross-pollinated. Linux is a reverse-engineered version of UNIX, much like Mark William's Coherent...or even AOS from Data General. As for "daisychained kudgefixing", the problem that needs fixing with WinXX from Micro$oft is the WinXX code itself!!! You do *not* have to wait to have problems with applications...you can spend all your time keeping WinXX running. As for the Mac GUI being a ripoff of Xerox...Apple obtained rights *from* Xerox to create this GUI in a deal that included buying a large chuck of Xerox stock. Micro$oft "learned" their first GUI information from developing applications for the Mac under contract with Apple. At first, Micro$oft had a deal with Apple for the use of the GUI and had a contract will Apple. M$ later just dropped the contract...and got sued. As for Mac users being intellectually defective...I will let Rick and Judge write to Douglas Addams and Tom Clancy and tell them they know *not* what they are doing... Both these men wrote all their books on Macs, and both are proponents of the Macintosh. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:04:47 EDT Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:04:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58605 In article <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >As for the Mac GUI being a ripoff of Xerox...Apple obtained rights >*from* Xerox >to create this GUI in a deal that included buying a large chuck of Xerox stock. What year was this deal? I thought it was several years after the Mac became a commercial success, and still further after the Lisa. >Micro$oft "learned" their first GUI information from developing applications >for the Mac under contract with Apple. I thought billg had a visit to PARC too, pre-Mac. >As for Mac users being intellectually defective...I will let Rick and Judge >write to Douglas Addams and Tom Clancy and tell them they know *not* what >they are doing... Both these men wrote all their books on Macs, and both >are proponents of the Macintosh. According to the alt.fan.douglas-adams FAQ (http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/dna/faqs/dnafaq.html), the first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book was released in the UK in 1979 and in the US in 1980; the second was released in the UK in 1980 and in the US in 1982. It would have been quite a feat to have written these two books on Macs, unless his writing about time travel is actually based on his personal experience. :) But he is indeed an ardent Mac proponent. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: scottdav@voyager2.eng.sun.com (Scott Davidson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 25 Jun 2000 22:12:39 GMT Organization: LGP21 Users Group Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: <8j604n$fs9$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> References: Reply-To: scottdav@voyager2.eng.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager2.eng.sun.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!chicago-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!denver-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!namche.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews1.eng.sun.com!voyager2!scottdav Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58585 In article 189563@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net, Ric Werme writes: >scottdav@nospam.com (Scott Davidson) writes: > And >>if they put a scope on the outputs (assuming they got the thing running) >>they would see nothing. > >Well, not all signals are toggling at Microwave rates! My father >brought home an old oscilloscope from work in the mid-60s for me. 150 >Khz, err, I guess it said 150 kc. There are a lot of signals these >days that wouldn't make it past the probe.... > >-- >Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete I don't know much about military electronics, but on your average processor board I don't think you'd see much with a scope running under 1 MHz. Even boundary scan signals are running in the 10s if MHz these days. I suppose you'd see something on busses that weren't toggling, but not enough to figure anything out. Scott ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 101 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-85.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:26:46 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 961979159 204.92.64.17 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:25:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:25:59 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!142.77.1.188!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58571 Hi Chuck, "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net... >snipsnipsnip > As for Linux and BSD being "rip-offs"...much of the code in System V Release > 4 came from the BSD version that was coded at Berkeley. So the best you could > say here is cross-pollinated. Linux is a reverse-engineered version of UNIX, > much like Mark William's Coherent...or even AOS from Data General. > My typo, I meant to type "FreeBSD". PLEASE correct, or moderately flame me if I'm wrong, but I don't think FreeBSD is connected with BSD. If they were, I'd buy one. > As for "daisychained kludgefixing", the problem that needs fixing with WinXX > from Micro$oft is the WinXX code itself!!! You do *not* have to wait to have > problems with applications...you can spend all your time keeping WinXX running. I haven't had an opportunity to try out Win2000 yet, but my woes vis a vis getting stuff to work on a new design mb and graphics card under win95 are documented in ##$%^~? detail in other new groups. Mostly, I just wanted to use the phrase "daisychained kludgefixing"(say that three times, fast, it starts to sound more accurate the more dyslexic it gets) > As for the Mac GUI being a ripoff of Xerox...Apple obtained rights > *from* Xerox > to create this GUI in a deal that included buying a large chuck of Xerox stock. > Micro$oft "learned" their first GUI information from developing applications > for the Mac under contract with Apple. At first, Micro$oft had a deal with > Apple for the use of the GUI and had a contract will Apple. M$ later just > dropped the contract...and got sued. I think that qualifies as an attempted "ripping off" re Microsoft. > > As for Mac users being intellectually defective...I will let Rick and Judge > write to Douglas Addams and Tom Clancy and tell them they know *not* what > they are doing... Both these men wrote all their books on Macs, and both > are proponents of the Macintosh. ????????? I'm not sure which thread you were following . . . a couple of not so minor points? . . . a) The ReplyTo option you used to write your post is usually used for "replying to" a post, ie: your message was to Judge specifically, followed by myself(P "Rick" Linnane) as owner of this little sub-chain from several posts back, followed by . . . , etc., followed by the ng populace at large. Or, bluntly "Are you talkin' to me?" . . . which brings me to my next points . . . b) Judge made no reference to the intellectual properties of Mac users at all, and . . . c) Concerning the only statement I made, >>>And when did a Mac user *ever* have to know what he's doing ? <<<, the context was explicitly regarding operating system maintenance, and the statement was not written tongue-in-cheek: it is common knowledge that Macs require less "computer savvy" to use. d) I'm an ardent fan of both authors, what's your point ? . . . by the way . . . Thats my real name on the header I deal with Mac users, most of whom are capable of reading newsgroups Your implication of a statement I did not make fit the legal definition of "libel" - do you live in North America ? Thanks a bunch, Rick PS: If you're trying to start a Mac/PC war, there are other groups where it (might) be appropriate, here its pretty "penny ante". ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:46:51 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 161 Message-ID: <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58547 P Linnane wrote: > > Hi Chuck, > > "Charles Richmond" wrote in message > news:395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net... > > >snipsnipsnip > > > As for Linux and BSD being "rip-offs"...much of the code in System V > > Release 4 came from the BSD version that was coded at Berkeley. So > > the best you could say here is cross-pollinated. Linux is a reverse- > > engineered version of UNIX, much like Mark William's Coherent...or > > even AOS from Data General. > > > > My typo, I meant to type "FreeBSD". > PLEASE correct, or moderately flame me if I'm wrong, but I don't think > FreeBSD is connected with BSD. If they were, I'd buy one. > From some of the FreeBSD WEB pages, an excerpt from "A Brief History of FreeBSD": > > The first CDROM (and general net-wide) distribution was FreeBSD 1.0, > released in December of 1993. This was based on the 4.3BSD-Lite > (``Net/2'') tape from U.C. Berkeley, with many components also provided > by 386BSD and the Free Software Foundation. It was a fairly reasonable > success for a first offering, and we followed it with the highly successful > FreeBSD 1.1 release in May of 1994. > So you see, FreeBSD is connected with BSD from Berkeley, and is built up from that foundation. I am *not* sure what you are going to buy...FreeBSD is *free*. You could buy a set of Walnut Creek FreeBSD CD-ROM's...it would be cheaper than WinXX. > > > As for "daisychained kludgefixing", the problem that needs fixing with > > WinXX from Micro$oft is the WinXX code itself!!! You do *not* have to wait > > to have problems with applications...you can spend all your time keeping > > WinXX running. > > I haven't had an opportunity to try out Win2000 yet, but my woes vis a vis > getting stuff to work on a new design mb and graphics card under win95 are > documented in ##$%^~? detail in other new groups. > > Mostly, I just wanted to use the phrase "daisychained kludgefixing" > (say that three times, fast, it starts to sound more accurate the more > dyslexic it gets) > I certainly agree..."daisychained kludgefixing" *does* have a nice ring to it. I wish I knew what it meant...but maybe it can mean whatever the hell I want it to mean. :-) > > > As for the Mac GUI being a ripoff of Xerox...Apple obtained rights > > *from* Xerox to create this GUI in a deal that included buying a large > > chuck of Xerox stock. Micro$oft "learned" their first GUI information > > from developing applications for the Mac under contract with Apple. > > At first, Micro$oft had a deal with Apple for the use of the GUI and > > had a contract will Apple. M$ later just dropped the contract...and > > got sued. > > I think that qualifies as an attempted "ripping off" re Microsoft. > Err...yes, IMHO Micro$oft did some of its traditional ripping off here... but I believe that Apple got the GUI rights from Xerox in a much more honorable manner. So I feel it is unfair to say that Apple ripped off Xerox...certainly Apple did *not* originate the idea of a GUI, nor did Xerox...the GUI was originally suggested by Doug Englebart back in the 1960's. Xerox made changes to Englebarts ideas...and Apple made changes to Xerox's ideas... > > > > As for Mac users being intellectually defective...I will let Rick and > > Judge write to Douglas Addams and Tom Clancy and tell them they know > > *not* what they are doing... Both these men wrote all their books on > > Macs, and both are proponents of the Macintosh. > > ????????? > > I'm not sure which thread you were following . . . a couple of not so minor > points? . . . > > a) The ReplyTo option you used to write your post is usually used for > "replying to" a post, ie: your message was to Judge specifically, followed > by myself(P "Rick" Linnane) as owner of this little sub-chain from several > posts back, followed by . . . , etc., followed by the ng populace at large. > > Or, bluntly "Are you talkin' to me?" . . . which brings me to my next points > . . . > > b) Judge made no reference to the intellectual properties of Mac users at > all, and . . . > Your quoted post specifically said: "And when did a Mac user *ever* have to know what he's doing ?" And Judge's post said: "Yeah, what he said :-)", implying that Judge agreed with *everything* you had posted... Now, perhaps you *meant* that Mac users did *not* have to have technical knowledge, but I interpreted your statement differently...I admit that I may have been somewhat over-sensative here... All I did was to quote the *entire* post that Judge made...the mixed references to other's material was inherited from Judge's post...in retrospect, *not* a good thing, since Judge may have made some attribution errors... > > c) Concerning the only statement I made, >>>And when did a Mac user *ever* > have to know what he's doing ? <<<, the context was explicitly regarding > operating system maintenance, and the statement was not written > tongue-in-cheek: it is common knowledge that Macs require less "computer > savvy" to use. > Agreed...you can get useful work out of a Mac with *less* computer saavy... But there is a sub-set of Mac users (*not* an empty sub-set) who *do* understand the OS in depth and can develop and code applications... > > d) I'm an ardent fan of both authors, what's your point ? > Only that these Mac users know what they are doing...*not* perhaps in a computer technical sense...but that they are gifted and intelligent people. This comes from my taking a different meaning from the statement "And when did a Mac user *ever* have to know what he's doing ?" > > . . . by the way . . . > > Thats my real name on the header > I deal with Mac users, most of whom are capable of reading newsgroups > Your implication of a statement I did not make fit the legal definition of > "libel" - do you live in North America ? > Yup, I live in North America...but I fail to see a case for libel here... and indeed my real name is on my header also...it's interesting that you deal with Mac users...unfortunately there is a large body of users (both Mac and PC) who are woefully ignorant of the workings of the machines that they depend on. > > PS: If you're trying to start a Mac/PC war, there are other groups where it > (might) be appropriate, here its pretty "penny ante". > I agree that a Mac/PC war is definitely out of place here...I am *not* a super Mac proponent, but I do *not* like to see Mac's or Linux boxes trashed beyond what they legitimately deserve...IMHO just because they are *not* what is considered main stream. No, I am *not* a real Mac proponent, although I use a Mac as my main machine. What I am is an anti-Micro$oft, anti-Bill Gates, anti-WinXX person...and I know quite a few other people who fit this category to differing degrees. So someone saying that "WinXX is good" can set me off faster than someone saying "Macs are bad". As for Tom Clancy and Douglas Addams writing all their books on a Mac...I really only saw this assertion made by Tom Clancy in an article...but I too know that Douglas Addams is a Mac proponent...so maybe I overstepped a little here... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 99 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-85.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:34:34 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962012028 204.92.64.17 (Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:33:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:33:48 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58570 Hi, again > From some of the FreeBSD WEB pages, an excerpt from "A Brief History of > FreeBSD": > > > > The first CDROM (and general net-wide) distribution was FreeBSD 1.0, > > released in December of 1993. This was based on the 4.3BSD-Lite > > (``Net/2'') tape from U.C. Berkeley, with many components also provided > > by 386BSD and the Free Software Foundation. It was a fairly reasonable > > success for a first offering, and we followed it with the highly successful > > FreeBSD 1.1 release in May of 1994. > > > So you see, FreeBSD is connected with BSD from Berkeley, and is built up from > that foundation. I am *not* sure what you are going to buy...FreeBSD is *free*. > You could buy a set of Walnut Creek FreeBSD CD-ROM's...it would be > cheaper than > WinXX. Think I'll check Berkely's pages for references to FreeBSD, if that's true, I will purchase a copy (56K modem). > I certainly agree..."daisychained kludgefixing" *does* have a nice ring > to it. I wish I knew what it meant...but maybe it can mean whatever the > hell I want it to mean. :-) Hmm . . . where to start . . . In (granted, archaic) programming terms, a "daisychain" is piece of code where module "A" calls module "B" which calls module "C" . . .etc . . . which calls module "A" (thus starting the whole thing over again). It's a very useful, efficient and aesthetically pleasing method of coding, and a real pain in the ass to debug unless a) you're the person who wrote it, and b) you remember how you wrote it, and c) it worked "right out of the box" when you wrote it. Most commonly used in Assembler and Fortran, C programmers refer to it as "re-entrant" coding, I believe. It required so much intuition *and* attention to detail that later versions of some languages dropped support for it altogether (eg: COBOL). A "kludge" is uh, well . . . a "kludge", the result of yet another "programming style" consisting of patching existing non-viable coding with really unaesthetic, sloppy fixes to make it work. I developed this term after reinstalling W95 several times from scratch on a recently designed motherboard (what actually came out of my mouth was *much* less aesthetic). Glad you like it. > > > Only that these Mac users know what they are doing...*not* perhaps in a computer > technical sense...but that they are gifted and intelligent people. This comes > from my taking a different meaning from the statement "And when did a > Mac user > *ever* have to know what he's doing ?" > > > > . . . by the way . . . > > > > Thats my real name on the header > > I deal with Mac users, most of whom are capable of reading newsgroups > > Your implication of a statement I did not make fit the legal definition of > > "libel" - do you live in North America ? > > > Yup, I live in North America...but I fail to see a case for libel here... > and indeed my real name is on my header also...it's interesting that you deal > with Mac users...unfortunately there is a large body of users (both Mac > and PC) > who are woefully ignorant of the workings of the machines that they > depend on. libel - slander in writing slander - a deliberate misstatement of facts damaging to a legal entity(person, corporation)'s reputation grammar - yer mama's mama *or* the difference between "have to know" and "know" :-) (okay, I give in a little, I reread the article, and at first glance it looks like Mac bait) anyways . . . AHA! SO THE TRANSISTOR WAS ALIEN TECHNOLOGY ! Rick ###### Message-ID: <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:28:12 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 75 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 962018893 24334 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58578 P Linnane wrote: > Someone else wrote: > > I certainly agree..."daisychained kludgefixing" *does* have a nice ring > > to it. I wish I knew what it meant...but maybe it can mean whatever the > > hell I want it to mean. :-) > > Hmm . . . where to start . . . > In (granted, archaic) programming terms, a "daisychain" is piece of code > where module "A" calls module "B" which calls module "C" . . .etc . . . > which calls module "A" (thus starting the whole thing over again). The accepted English term for this is "indirect recursion". What do you call it in your native language? > It's a > very useful, efficient and aesthetically pleasing method of coding, and a > real pain in the ass to debug unless a) you're the person who wrote it, and > b) you remember how you wrote it, and c) it worked "right out of the box" > when you wrote it. It's a PITA to debug if d) You don't know how to write code. Indirect recursion is *hardly* a rare technique. > Most commonly used in Assembler and Fortran, FORTRAN? Which FORTRAN? Recursion abilities of any kind are not required by either the FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 language standard. (I don't think FORTRAN 90 can possibly be considered "folkloric" yet.) That doesn't mean that some, many, or most FORTRAN implementations didn't support recursion, just that the language spec didn't specify it. Recursion tends to imply that there's some sort of local stack available for temporary variables. This isn't necessarily the case for code produced by many FORTRAN compilers. > C programmers refer to it as "re-entrant" coding, I believe. "reentrancy" is related to recursion, but not exactly the same. C compilers will generate re-entrant code quite happily if you feed them re-entrant source, and all the libraries you're using happen to be re-entrant too :-). Note that FORTRAN I/O is *not* re-entrant. So, for instance, you cannot write: PROGRAM X WRITE(5,*) (A(I),I=1,10) END FUNCTION A(I) WRITE(5,*) I A=I RETURN END and have a legal, portable, functioning program: $ fort x $ link x $ run x %FOR-F-RECIO_OPE, recursive I/O operation unit 5 file user PC 0000044A > It required so > much intuition *and* attention to detail that later versions of some > languages dropped support for it altogether (eg: COBOL). The concept of an expanding local data stack is a very recent development in computer architecture compared to COBOL and FORTRAN... I do believe that you've got history very backwards! Tim. ###### From: fjord@norgate.com (Fjord Prefect) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 26 Jun 2000 13:43:23 GMT Organization: netINS, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8j7mlr$ovo$1@ins21.netins.net> References: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: desm-28-093.dialup.netins.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news.netins.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58569 In article <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com>, kragen@dnaco.net says... > >In article <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: >>As for the Mac GUI being a ripoff of Xerox...Apple obtained rights >>*from* Xerox >>to create this GUI in a deal that included buying a large chuck of Xerox stock. > >What year was this deal? I thought it was several years after the Mac >became a commercial success, and still further after the Lisa. > >>Micro$oft "learned" their first GUI information from developing applications >>for the Mac under contract with Apple. > >I thought billg had a visit to PARC too, pre-Mac. > >>As for Mac users being intellectually defective...I will let Rick and Judge >>write to Douglas Addams and Tom Clancy and tell them they know *not* what >>they are doing... Both these men wrote all their books on Macs, and both >>are proponents of the Macintosh. > >According to the alt.fan.douglas-adams FAQ >(http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/dna/faqs/dnafaq.html), the >first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book was released in the UK in >1979 and in the US in 1980; the second was released in the UK in 1980 >and in the US in 1982. It would have been quite a feat to have written >these two books on Macs, unless his writing about time travel is >actually based on his personal experience. :) > That's just how good the Mac is!!!! >But he is indeed an ardent Mac proponent. >-- > Kragen Sitaker >The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! > >The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:59:43 -0400 From: Charlton Wilbur X-Sender: cwwilbur@lessing.oit.umass.edu Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-Host: lessing.oit.umass.edu X-Trace: 26 Jun 2000 09:59:44 -0500, lessing.oit.umass.edu Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.umass.edu!oit.umass.edu!lessing.oit.umass.edu!cwwilbur Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58562 On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Kragen Sitaker wrote: > I don't hang out with Wintel kinda guys much these days; are bad luck > with women and belief in Nostradamus common in this crowd? :) Well, as far as bad luck with women goes, I can't speak to that, not being a Wintel sort myself - but as far as Nostradamus goes, how *else* do you explain why it crashes so often? Charlton -- Charlton Wilbur | Wer bin ich, waer' ich deine Wille nicht? University of Massachusetts | -- Bruennhilde cwwilbur@music.umass.edu | 1832 - 1841 - 1976 - 1992 - 2001 ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 26 Jun 2000 14:39:09 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 193 Message-ID: <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.lightning.net!abq.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58595 In <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond writes: >Judge wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] >> >> The Germans would have won the war handily had they had two things - >> one, a better leader. Two, fuel and other raw materials. Hitler >> (predicted by Nostradamus hundreds of years earlier, only missing his >> name by one letter - "Hisler") >> >Actually, Nostradamus called the name "Hister", and some believe it is >referring to the Hister River...but I will give him credit for predicting >Hitler. >> >> it must be remembered, sent the >> inventors of the jet airplane to the Russian Front as common foot >> soldiers - for their continuing development on the jet platform even >> after he said it was not needed and to be forgotten. Lucky for him >> (and us, indirectly) they survived almost 3 years on the frozen tundra >> to be returned post haste, and get back to work on the revolutionary >> war machine. The 262 was so good, even though it only served for a >> short, short time - it has been regarded as the greatest threat of >> WW2. Considering the atomic bomb's one-size-kills-all potential, this >> is really saying something. >> >Yes, if Hitler had given more importance to German technical innovations >like the V2 rocket and the jet fighters earlier in the war, he could have >made a much better fight out of it. But the allies could out-produce the >Germans...after all, *not* many allied airplane factories were being bombed. Isn't there a complete branch of history where people try to predict the outcome based on slight changes to the initial conditions? I can't remember the name of this field of study. While it's currently fashionable to portray Hitler as a complete madman, I'm not sure this is really totally correct. Some sources indicate that one of the earlier stratagies was to conquer Europe, including England. One possibility was the the United States would have remained neutral, or, in the worst case, they wouldn't have been able to successfully launch a European invasion without England to use as a forward base. Next, Russia would have been taken out, and this would have resulted in the capture of important mineral resources. The problem, though, is that England refused to be conquered, mainly due to the heroics of the RAF. In any case, the theory was that the war would be over in a very short time period, and thus there was no need to expend resources on long range technology programs at that time, especially given that the diversion of these resources into short range goals might even allow the war to be concluded quicker. In terms of military usefullness, the V-2 was essentially worthless. Given the amount of resources needed to build it, and the limited amount of payload it could deliver, and the accuracy which it delivered it, there was almost no chance that it could have changed the outcome of the war, even if the numbers launched had been much greater. There is the possibility that if nuclear weapons had been used on it, it might have mattered. But, as has been stated elsewhere, Heisenburg had made significant errors in the German nuclear program. I seem to remember that his estimates of the amount of fissionable material needed was a couple of orders of magnitude too large. Thus, the possibility of obtaining the needed amount of material was extremely remote. There was apparently some dissention between Germany and Japan about the attack by the Japanese against the United States. And, of course, there were some of the high ranking Japanese military figures that realized that an attack against the United States would be militarily suicide given the tremendous industrial capacity that was possible. >> >> Also consider the F86 Sabre and the MiG-15's designs - very similar, >> no? Because they were both based on captured German research. >> >Yes, and a lot of Russian and U.S. rocket and bomb research after WW II >was based on German work...and much of it done for Russia and the U.S. >by the German scientists themselves. A significant number of the German scientists wanted to be captured by the western powers. I seem to remember that von Braun specifically took steps to be captured by the western powers. Some of this was due to recognition of the higher technical abilities of the west; but some was due to fear about how the Russians would treat them, especially after some of the attrocities committed during the battles in Russia. I'm aware of quite a few rocket scientists being captured, along with some of the nuclear scientists, but I'm not aware of any electroncis or computer scientists being captured. >> >> The electronics, which is what this thread is based on, would have >> dumbfounded the Allied scientists before the end of the war. However >> with the end of the war bringing together the best of all minds >> available - it would be interesting how they would handle LCD screens, >> CPU's, ram chips, etc. Imagine where we would be today had Tesla been >> funded and fueled by Government money and power.. I am getting misty >> eyed just thinking about it. >> >Yes, but in the 1940's, Tesla was feeding the pidgoens on the steps of >the New York City Library...Tesla died alone in his room, a forgotten >man...even after all he accomplished in his life. Tesla was a bit of an eccentric. I think Cliff Pickover has included Tesla in his book "Strange Brains and Genius": http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/strange.htm Chief among the scientists is Nikola Tesla, father of alternating current and countless other electrical devices, who could be seen on New York City streets covered in pigeons, was obsessed with the number three, and repulsed by jewelry, particularly pearls. >> >> This is my first time reading this group, as I am a (gasp, hiss) >> Wintel kinda guy. I had as a kid played with some of the "good old >> days" machines, but most of my time was spent playing with cars and >> chasing women. I had more luck with cars than women, much to my >> chagrin. Today, I spend more time tweaking the bios than tuning the >> hot rod but I enjoy reading about you're opinions, memories and >> thoughts. >> >Get a Mac, or at least a Linux box...you have to re-load the OS a lot >less often. IMHO being a Wintel kinda guy means you do *not* know what >you are doing, and just follow along with the crowd who are following >Mr. Bill over the cliff... Or, he could get an OS/2 box (Hey, this a.f.c!). :*) >> >> On a last note - For those of you who might or do enjoy combat >> aircraft and technology, take a peek at a certain mission in Air >> Warrior 3. Its where you take a 262 out alone against a fully armed >> B-17 bomber.. guess what - that 17 will whip your ass every time! You >> see, the 262's speed is in fact its weakness when attempting to >> dogfight a "deathstar" (a deathstar is a bomber with a full complement >> of gunners). >> >I am *not* so sure that the ME-262 did so bad against the B-17...I am >pretty sure it did well against Allied fighter planes. I'm aware of one project where a B-17 was turned into a gunship, primarily for use as a ground attack fighter. I don't remember the specifics, but it was fairly awesome. This seems in stark contrast to the attempt to use the ME-262 as a bomber, a role it was completely unsuited for. >> >> Also remember my favorite of the BUF's - the B-36 peacemaker. The >> great handshake of technology - 6 turnin' and 4 burnin' - piston >> engines and jet engines on the same aircraft. At high altitudes this, >> the largest operational warplane of all time, could out fly and >> maneuver a MiG. The wings on this badboy were over 7 feet thick! Its >> weight is off the scale, and its wingspan was damn near a football >> field in length. >> >The Peacemaker seemed a plane without a mission...at least it *never* >actually bombed anyone... It was too big, too noisy, too costly, and >used too much fuel. When they flew it to the SAC bases in Alaska, it >would *not* fit into the hangers, which were designed for those dinky >little B-29's. So to keep the wings and fuel from freezing, they had >to cover it with a tarp and pump in hot air. IMHO it was the Baby Huey >of the Air Force at that time... (Baby Huey was an over-sized cartoon >character with a child-like brain.) For those people who'd like to see a B-36, there is one on exhibit at the US Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/ >> >> And a transistor is how big? Aint technology grand. >> >Making it smaller and smaller and smaller is the point...unfortunately, >with the common proliferation of computer power, most people have lost >any respect they have had for the ability to calculate and solve >fantastic problems... It is amazing how fast people can absorb new >technology. It only seems to stay "gee-whiz" for about two weeks... > Two weeks? That long? I thought gee-whiz stuff only lasted for a day now. :*) >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Charles and Francis Richmond | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Message-ID: <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:22:30 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 962032955 24334 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58583 glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: > In terms of military usefullness, the V-2 was essentially worthless. Given > the amount of resources needed to build it, and the limited amount of payload > it could deliver, and the accuracy which it delivered it, there was almost > no chance that it could have changed the outcome of the war, even if the > numbers launched had been much greater. You could say roughly the same thing about the A-bomb. Germany could launch dozens of V-2's a month if it set its mind to it; the US could make a couple of A-bombs a year. And in terms of the amount of physical damage actually done, the A-bomb was way behind a good conventional firebombing in effectiveness. In the end, of course, the A-bomb is what forced Japan to surrender, not because of the physical damage that it actually did, but for the psychological effect of how it changed toughts of continuing the war. This was entirely how the Germans were positioning the V-2 as a weapon, though they did so much less effectively. > There is the possibility that if > nuclear weapons had been used on it, it might have mattered. But, as has > been stated elsewhere, Heisenburg had made significant errors in the German > nuclear program. I seem to remember that his estimates of the amount of > fissionable material needed was a couple of orders of magnitude too large. > Thus, the possibility of obtaining the needed amount of material was > extremely remote. There has been much argument in the past decade over whether or not Heisenberg purposefully led the German A-bomb effort down the wrong path. One of the best discussions, IMHO, is Thomas Powers' _Heisenberg's War_. Not everybody agrees with the conclusion that it favors, but Powers' book gives an even-handed treatment of all the possibilities. Tim. ###### From: newtrounn@aol.com (Ned Newtroun) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 26 Jun 2000 16:44:04 GMT Organization: netINS, Inc. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8j818k$6on$1@ins21.netins.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: desm-28-135.dialup.netins.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news.netins.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58558 In article <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com says... snip >There has been much argument in the past decade over whether or not >Heisenberg purposefully led the German A-bomb effort down the wrong >path. One of the best discussions, IMHO, is Thomas Powers' >_Heisenberg's War_. Not everybody agrees with the conclusion that >it favors, but Powers' book gives an even-handed treatment of all >the possibilities. > The Germans made a serious miscalculation in the usefulness of graphite as a moderator (it wasn't Heisenberg but someone else) that made them draw the conclusion that heavy water was the only suitable substance. This was not corrected for over a year. They had the major supplier of heavy water in Norway and White Chapel? recordings of their conversations after their capture in '45 suggest that even then they considered themselves to be at least 10 years ahead of the allies in nuclear research. The climate for research and development of weapons in Germany in 39-42 was to cancel or downgrade any projects that were not close to completion in the next few months due to the war would be over soon. The nuclear research was done by two factions in Germany, one led by Heisenburg, who fought over the available uranium and heavy water. Each group had their own design for a reactor to test their theories and Germany had only enough uranium and heavy water to build one of them. They were at the point of assembling one of them at the end of the war, they were no where near constructing a bomb. Heisenberg claims after the fact that he "kept" Germany from building the bomb, others claim that he simply made a mistake and won't admit it, another possibility is that he promised things in the long run to the military and Hitler but not the short run to keep from getting into trouble for not producing and to keep himself and his friends (other scientists) out of the military. The V2 had a couple of advantages over the V1. First was that it even though it carried the same warhead as the V1, the way it impacted resulted in more damage being caused. Second, it was supersonic, there was no warning prior to impact and no way to intercept it. If it cost ten times as much as the V1 but more than ten V1s where intercepted before they hit the target, then the V2 would be more cost effective. The V1's advantage was that it tied up major resources (radar, AA guns, fighters, men) back in England. Back to the what-ifs, probably the best chance for Germany would have been in late '41 if Japan had assisted its ally and attacked Russia. Japan had fought Russia in the 30s in Manchuria but was soundly beaten by Zhukov. They sign a non-aggression pact with Russia every year up to and including 1945. This allowed Russia to transfer all their troops from the east to fight the Germans. It was the Siberian troops that held Germany out of Moscow at the end of '41. If Japan had attacked Russia in the fall of 41, and tied up even a few divisions, it may have made the difference by allowing Germany to capture Moscow (a main hub or rail transport for the Russians) in '41. By doing that instead of Pearl Harbor, the US would have not entered the war until later. Remember, the US did not declare war on Germany, Germany declared war on the US. Russia and Japan honored the non-aggression pact between them until the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima where-upon Russia informed Japan they were breaking it. They continued to fight the Japanese in Manchuria for over a month after the Japanese surrendered. >Tim. Ned ###### From: quirk@swcp.com (Taki Kogoma) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 26 Jun 2000 11:28:09 -0600 Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorrow Afternoon Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8j83r9$hrn@boofura.swcp.com> References: <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> <8j818k$6on$1@ins21.netins.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: boofura.swcp.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.136.4.MISMATCH!feeder.swcp.com!sloth.swcp.com!boofura.swcp.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58567 On 26 Jun 2000 16:44:04 GMT, did newtrounn@aol.com (Ned Newtroun), to alt.folklore.computers decree... >The V2 had a couple of advantages over the V1. First was that it even though >it carried the same warhead as the V1, the way it impacted resulted in more >damage being caused. Actually, I've read that the V-2 was less effective than the V-1 because the former's high velocity impact would burry the warhead some ways below the surface before detonating, so as to cause a reduced blast radius. -- Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider. ###### Message-ID: <39576472.7FE5705D@trailing-edge.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:10:58 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> <8j818k$6on$1@ins21.netins.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 962043060 28336 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58579 Ned Newtroun wrote: > > In article <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com > says... > snip > >There has been much argument in the past decade over whether or not > >Heisenberg purposefully led the German A-bomb effort down the wrong > >path. One of the best discussions, IMHO, is Thomas Powers' > >_Heisenberg's War_. Not everybody agrees with the conclusion that > >it favors, but Powers' book gives an even-handed treatment of all > >the possibilities. > > > > The Germans made a serious miscalculation in the usefulness of graphite as a > moderator (it wasn't Heisenberg but someone else) that made them draw the > conclusion that heavy water was the only suitable substance. "Miscalculation" isn't the way to describe it. The problem is that common chemically-refined graphite has a lot of boron in it, and boron will suck up all your neutrons if it's in the moderator. So common graphite is pretty useless to use as a moderator, and that is exactly what the Germans measured. OTOH, electrolytically refined graphite can be very useful as a moderator. This is much more of a materials science issue, though it's a vitally important materials science issue if you want to build a reactor. So yes, the Germans had the wrong numbers for using pure graphite as a moderator. But they had the wrong numbers because electrolytically refined graphite wasn't available to them. The numbers they had were correct for the boron that they had available. >This was not > corrected for over a year. They had the major supplier of heavy water in > Norway and White Chapel? recordings of their conversations after their capture > in '45 suggest that even then they considered themselves to be at least 10 > years ahead of the allies in nuclear research. German espionage was woefully out of touch with the reality of the Manhattan project. The Russian espionage was on the right track, but of course they had the advantage of being on our side! In fact, far before the war ended, Russia was requesting that the US send them large quantities of electrolytically refined graphite, supposedly for arc discharge lamps, but you don't need pure graphite for arc discharge lamps :-). Tim. ###### Message-ID: <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:14:11 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 962043252 28336 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.online.be!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58581 Charles Richmond wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > [sinp...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > FORTRAN? Which FORTRAN? Recursion abilities of any kind are > > not required by either the FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 language > > standard. (I don't think FORTRAN 90 can possibly be considered > > "folkloric" yet.) > > > I understand that one criteria this group has is that things need > to be at least 10 years old to be considered "on topic". But with > some things, might it be possible that they are obsolete when they > are released??? I have little direct knowledge of FORTRAN 90, but > from what I know it seems an attempt to graft a lot of C stuff on > to FORTRAN... This seems unnecessary...if you want C, use C. So > IMHO FORTRAN 90 *might* be obsolete even before it was released... FORTRAN 90 is an attempt to make FORTRAN even better at what C is lousy at but which FORTRAN has always been good at: crunching large matrices and vectors. Yeah, a lot of structured programming leaked in from elsewhere, but if you want to trace this back to its source you should point your finger at ALGOL, not at C. Tim. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:03:03 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58548 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > [sinp...] [snip...] [snip...] > > FORTRAN? Which FORTRAN? Recursion abilities of any kind are > not required by either the FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 language > standard. (I don't think FORTRAN 90 can possibly be considered > "folkloric" yet.) > I understand that one criteria this group has is that things need to be at least 10 years old to be considered "on topic". But with some things, might it be possible that they are obsolete when they are released??? I have little direct knowledge of FORTRAN 90, but from what I know it seems an attempt to graft a lot of C stuff on to FORTRAN... This seems unnecessary...if you want C, use C. So IMHO FORTRAN 90 *might* be obsolete even before it was released... Is this happening to all the old languages??? Is COBOL 85 an attempt to un-COBOL COBOL??? Are we dragging the past into the future by giving these languages harmone shots and trying to pump them up into something resembling C++/JAVA??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 26 Jun 00 14:07:19 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <776.212T980T8473825@sky.bus.com> References: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-554.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!207.211.168.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58619 In article <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) writes: >According to the alt.fan.douglas-adams FAQ >(http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/dna/faqs/dnafaq.html), the >first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book was released in the UK in >1979 and in the US in 1980; the second was released in the UK in 1980 >and in the US in 1982. It would have been quite a feat to have written >these two books on Macs, unless his writing about time travel is >actually based on his personal experience. :) > >But he is indeed an ardent Mac proponent. And indeed, he specifically mentions Macs in _Dirk_Gently's_Holistic_Detective_Agency_. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 26 Jun 00 14:13:52 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <668.212T2610T8536047@sky.bus.com> References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-555.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!do.de.uu.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58622 In article greg@apple2.com.invalid (greg) writes: >In article , >azz@cartman.azz.net (Adam Sampson) wrote: > >> My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the >> "Space Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just >> used pencils. > >And have all that graphite dust and eraser rubbings floating around? >And waste mass on vacuum-assisted pencil sharpeners? On the other hand, the clunky old Russian electronics wouldn't be shorted out by the graphite dust... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:58:55 +0100 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 962047243 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!netnews.com!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58662 In article , "Jack Peacock" writes: > "bill_h" wrote in message > news:39541B52.4B97@azstarnet.com... >> Oh? how many men have they sent to the MOON? And, how many have come >> BACK? >> >> Define SUCCESS! >> > How about being able to put a space station in orbit and not have it > fall out of the sky over Australia? Funny how with all the criticism > about the Russkies being late on the new space station we never hear > about Skylab these days. ...not to mention that they've been launching supply capsules to Mir every couple of months for about fifteen years now and I don't think they've lost *one*. They basically designed a few standard components that worked well and stuck with them. Has the Soyez ferry design been updated noticeably since it went into service? You can sum up the US space program by pointing out that Rotary Rocket, who are working on a privately-funded SSTO, have managed to fly a manned atmospheric prototype on less money than the *interest* on the *cost overrun* on the official NASA SSTO project. Which hasn't launched anything yet, AFAIR. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "[SF is not about predicting the future.] | Work: dg@tao-group.com | We are not prophets; in fact, if we were | Play: dgiven@iname.com | much worse at it, we'd be economists." --- +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ Stephen Dedman ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:00:10 +0100 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 962047252 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.yosemite.net!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58659 In article , greg@apple2.com.invalid writes: [...] >> My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the >> "Space Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just >> used pencils. > > And have all that graphite dust and eraser rubbings floating around? > And waste mass on vacuum-assisted pencil sharpeners? 50p pencil sharpener in a bag, anyone? Or if you want to get really expensive, how about a 1.50 UKP mechanical pencil? -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "[SF is not about predicting the future.] | Work: dg@tao-group.com | We are not prophets; in fact, if we were | Play: dgiven@iname.com | much worse at it, we'd be economists." --- +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ Stephen Dedman ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:38:17 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> <8j818k$6on$1@ins21.netins.net> <8j83r9$hrn@boofura.swcp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.73 X-Server-Date: 26 Jun 2000 19:11:48 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58660 In article <8j83r9$hrn@boofura.swcp.com>, quirk@swcp.com says... > On 26 Jun 2000 16:44:04 GMT, did newtrounn@aol.com (Ned Newtroun), > to alt.folklore.computers decree... > >The V2 had a couple of advantages over the V1. First was that it even though > >it carried the same warhead as the V1, the way it impacted resulted in more > >damage being caused. > > Actually, I've read that the V-2 was less effective than the V-1 > because the former's high velocity impact would burry the warhead some > ways below the surface before detonating, so as to cause a reduced blast > radius. > > Most were fused to explode at a height of 250 feet over the terrain. -- friend, I am: Howard Lute LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### From: greg@apple2.com.invalid Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Organization: II Infinitum References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: &@UA7$)=n9C7!qu%-5s},3tR@NEy+B>8PW"^,8?A>%."0{J2c1Yr]NKw';5/( J\r@/{UADjCdE~iRnOEOfbre(/1Y=$TS3Wt7B`a4sz, Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:12:36 CDT X-Trace: sv2-7MIgqpwdxnGYSahjdwpZYyTI7j0NVuNCeBXcK4qRigCt+5eiJ7dYZtFDIvJLrf6V0DedH2NOX9Y0qqs!aueG9mHG0a77Y/U9OZjpfKS6LA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:12:42 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!greg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58652 In article , dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote: >greg@apple2.com.invalid writes: >>azz@cartman.azz.net (Adam Sampson) wrote: >>> My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the >>> "Space Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just >>> used pencils. >> And have all that graphite dust and eraser rubbings floating around? >> And waste mass on vacuum-assisted pencil sharpeners? > 50p pencil sharpener in a bag, anyone? Or if you want to get really > expensive, how about a 1.50 UKP mechanical pencil? There's still the graphite dust to consider. It doesn't adhere to paper nearly as well as ink does. -- __ _____________ __ \ \_\ \__ __/ /_/ / .\ __ \ | | / __ /---------------------------------------------------- ^ \_\ \_\|_|/_/ /_/ Don't mail me, I'll mail you. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962060303.945952@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:58:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962060322 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:58:42 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:58:42 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58656 In article <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: >I'm aware of one project where a B-17 was turned into a gunship, >primarily for use as a ground attack fighter. I don't remember the >specifics, but it was fairly awesome. There was the YB-40 escort fighter, a version of the B-17 that was basically a gunship; by not carrying bombs it could carry more guns and ammunition. It was used to escort long bombing missions that fighters didn't have the range for. Eventually, P-51s were able to match the range of the bombers. Some tired B-17s were turned into radio controlled missiles, flying 12,000 pounds of high explosive into U-boat shelters. -- don ###### From: John Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:29:16 -0700 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3957E74C.DB082904@cisco.com> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-5!unknown@dhcp-171-68-135-18.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.man.poznan.pl!news.task.gda.pl!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58666 Charles Richmond wrote: > Heck, I also > am interested in learning more about ALGOL 60!!! > Good for you. Not only was it "better than all its predecessors it was better than most of its successors". http://www.masswerk.at/algol60/report.htm has the Algol 60 report - the perfect place to start learning Algol. Does anyone know whether the old ACM Algorithms in Algol are available on - line anywhere? Otherwise go to a library and look at CACM in the 60s 70s and 80s. JKA -- Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 962063115 6733 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:45:15 GMT Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58624 Tim Shoppa writes: > FORTRAN 90 is an attempt to make FORTRAN even better at what C > is lousy at but which FORTRAN has always been good at: crunching large > matrices and vectors. Yeah, a lot of structured programming leaked > in from elsewhere, but if you want to trace this back to its source > you should point your finger at ALGOL, not at C. Which vendor voted "no" on F90 ballots, saying something like "this is a wonderful language, it just shouldn't be called FORTRAN"? Was it DEC? Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: greg@apple2.com.invalid Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Organization: II Infinitum References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <668.212T2610T8536047@sky.bus.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: &@UA7$)=n9C7!qu%-5s},3tR@NEy+B>8PW"^,8?A>%."0{J2c1Yr]NKw';5/( J\r@/{UADjCdE~iRnOEOfbre(/1Y=$TS3Wt7B`a4sz, Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:18:02 CDT X-Trace: sv2-FiVroSJIgEHShtbYOZtllqm+FqDT12xylt7eVScHT7VqlFPm+ou/vTnM57YGJFCItykRZzcAASqbrXl!uqLtT9BZC4x45J4QCrFR+yqSag== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:18:46 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!greg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58653 In article <668.212T2610T8536047@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >greg@apple2.com.invalid (greg) writes: >>azz@cartman.azz.net (Adam Sampson) wrote: >>> My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the >>> "Space Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just >>> used pencils. >> And have all that graphite dust and eraser rubbings floating around? >> And waste mass on vacuum-assisted pencil sharpeners? > On the other hand, the clunky old Russian electronics wouldn't be > shorted out by the graphite dust... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be breathing it into my lungs, or gumming up the air scrubbers. -- __ _____________ __ \ \_\ \__ __/ /_/ / .\ __ \ | | / __ /---------------------------------------------------- ^ \_\ \_\|_|/_/ /_/ Don't mail me, I'll mail you. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:32:16 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58612 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > > [sinp...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > > > FORTRAN? Which FORTRAN? Recursion abilities of any kind are > > > not required by either the FORTRAN IV or FORTRAN 77 language > > > standard. (I don't think FORTRAN 90 can possibly be considered > > > "folkloric" yet.) > > > > > I understand that one criteria this group has is that things need > > to be at least 10 years old to be considered "on topic". But with > > some things, might it be possible that they are obsolete when they > > are released??? I have little direct knowledge of FORTRAN 90, but > > from what I know it seems an attempt to graft a lot of C stuff on > > to FORTRAN... This seems unnecessary...if you want C, use C. So > > IMHO FORTRAN 90 *might* be obsolete even before it was released... > > FORTRAN 90 is an attempt to make FORTRAN even better at what C > is lousy at but which FORTRAN has always been good at: crunching large > matrices and vectors. Yeah, a lot of structured programming leaked > in from elsewhere, but if you want to trace this back to its source > you should point your finger at ALGOL, not at C. > That fires up my interest in FORTRAN 90...but I am *not* sure about where the changes to FORTRAN 90 came from. The C language has ALGOL at its roots...that's where the "switch" keyword in C came from (IMHO). I have done my share of FORTRAN 77 (5 years for a defense contractor) and now I would be interested to learn more about this FORTRAN 90. Heck, I also am interested in learning more about ALGOL 60!!! For those who are *not* fond of C, I appologize for saying it is related to ALGOL...but I believe that it is... Personally, I *like* C very much... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962072843.876607@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:27:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962072862 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:27:42 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:27:42 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58657 In article , Terry Kennedy wrote: >Tim Shoppa writes: >> FORTRAN 90 is an attempt to make FORTRAN even better at what C >> is lousy at but which FORTRAN has always been good at: crunching large >> matrices and vectors. Yeah, a lot of structured programming leaked >> in from elsewhere, but if you want to trace this back to its source >> you should point your finger at ALGOL, not at C. > > Which vendor voted "no" on F90 ballots, saying something like "this is a >wonderful language, it just shouldn't be called FORTRAN"? Was it DEC? Hmm. It seemed to me that a lerge number of structured programming weenieisms arrived in FORTRAN-77. What was added in F90? -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 36 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:00:08 EDT Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:00:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58615 In article <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >The C language has ALGOL at its >roots...that's where the "switch" keyword in C came from (IMHO). Well, not to burst your bubble, but essentially all of C comes from ALGOL except for the punctuation. Block structure, structs, while, the statement/expression distinction, the block-is-a-statement syntax, most of the set of data types, the static typing . . . it's easier to list the things that differ between Algol and C than to list the similarities. ALGOL-60 begat CPL at U Cambridge and U London; and CPL begat Martin Richards' and Colin Whitby-Stevens' BCPL, a simplified version without types and with a much smaller syntax, in 1969; BCPL begat B out of Thompson, removing most of the pure functional stuff and lots of the control constructs; B begat ancient C out of Thompson and Ritchie (and Kernighan, and a bunch of others, I think --- someone can correct me on this attribution) by gaining static typing and, I think, case-sensitivity; and then they added structs and unions and such things, and changed arrays so that they didn't always have a physical pointer pointing to their beginning, and got K&R C. An interesting thing to notice here is that lots of stuff got removed by the time Algol had simplified to B, and then got integrated back in along the path to C. >For those who are *not* fond of C, I appologize for saying it is related >to ALGOL...but I believe that it is... Personally, I *like* C very much... I'm not sure why you should apologize for saying that; it's just a matter of well-documented historical fact. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.19.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> <8j818k$6on$1@ins21.netins.net> <8j83r9$hrn@boofura.swcp.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:00:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.144.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 962092855 193.203.144.236 (Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:00:55 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:00:55 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.man.poznan.pl!news.task.gda.pl!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58664 Howard and Kelly Lute wrote, in : > Most were fused to explode at a height of 250 feet over the terrain. In that case most of them misfired. One bloody great hole in the ground was the normal result of a V2. How was this fuse supposed to have worked anyway? Coming in at supersonic speed 250 feet is a very small margin of error. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 27 Jun 2000 13:26:03 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8jaa1b$f38$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <962060303.945952@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.lightning.net!abq.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58651 In <962060303.945952@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >In article <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, > wrote: >>I'm aware of one project where a B-17 was turned into a gunship, >>primarily for use as a ground attack fighter. I don't remember the >>specifics, but it was fairly awesome. > >There was the YB-40 escort fighter, a version of the B-17 that was >basically a gunship; by not carrying bombs it could carry more guns and >ammunition. It was used to escort long bombing missions that fighters >didn't have the range for. Eventually, P-51s were able to match the >range of the bombers. > >Some tired B-17s were turned into radio controlled missiles, flying >12,000 pounds of high explosive into U-boat shelters. > >-- don Yes, maybe it was the YB-40 that I was thinking of. I remember that it was used, at least once, as a ground attack fighter, although now that I think about it, that may have been a secondary use. I was just reading about the B-17s that were turned into the radio controlled missiles last night. Was this operation Aphrodite that you were referring to? You don't happen to read "World War II" magazine, do you? http://www.thehistorynet.com/WorldWarII/previous/2000/0500.htm It seems that they were turned into an open cockpit design to assist the pilot/co-pilot in exiting the plane. They were flown by a crew of two from the take-off point until they had achieved stable flight, and then the crew bailed out, with the remainder of the flight being controlled by a remote control/autopilot system. Unfortunately, they were not very successful, with some crashing/exploding on take off, some being shot down, and others experiencing control problems resulting in erratic flight. It might be interesting to see if anyone has any information on the control systems used. Were they analog computers? (Yikes! Did this post suddenly drift back onto topic for a.f.c?!?) Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:22:16 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <39573CF6.4AEFAA38@trailing-edge.com> <8j818k$6on$1@ins21.netins.net> <8j83r9$hrn@boofura.swcp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.73 X-Server-Date: 27 Jun 2000 15:32:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58663 In article , spalding@iol.ie says... > Howard and Kelly Lute wrote, in > : > > > Most were fused to explode at a height of 250 feet over the terrain. > > In that case most of them misfired. One bloody great hole in the > ground was the normal result of a V2. > > How was this fuse supposed to have worked anyway? Coming in at > supersonic speed 250 feet is a very small margin of error. > The actuator used sensed a number of conditions, atmospheric pressure sampled at lift-off, time of flight thru a clock-work device, and engine out (no pad "events" from warhead). Set point for the atmospheric was most critical, of course. -- friend, I am: Howard Lute LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:29:51 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 48 Message-ID: <395900B0.884C4037@dallas.net> References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <961979276.931144@server16.cable.com> <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> <3957E74C.DB082904@cisco.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58611 John Ahlstrom wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > Heck, I also > > am interested in learning more about ALGOL 60!!! > > > > Good for you. Not only was it "better than all its predecessors > it was better than most of its successors". > > http://www.masswerk.at/algol60/report.htm > > has the Algol 60 report - the perfect place to start > learning Algol. > Thanks...I will download a copy. But I already have a copy in a book edited by Ellis Horowitz titled: _Programming Languages: A Grand Tour_, Ellis Horowitz, third edition, Computer Science Press, Rockville, MD, 1987, ISBN: 0-88175-142-1 A tutorial it's *not*...the information in the report is thick with technical detail. I once borrowed the _Implementing ALGOL_ (may be the wrong title) by Randle and someone from the library on interlibrary loan. My thought was to see how hard it would be to implement an ALGOL compiler... but this book may *not* be the best way to go about it... > > Does anyone know whether the old ACM Algorithms in Algol > are available on - line anywhere? Otherwise go to a > library and look at CACM in the 60s 70s and 80s. > The best that I have found is this page: IMHO most alogrithms were published in ALGOL before a certain date...after that, it seems most algorithms were published in C. You might also check the following WEB page for a list of sites that have alogithms: -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:24:06 +0100 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6fkaj8.a66.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 962133646 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58692 In article , greg@apple2.com.invalid writes: [...] >> 50p pencil sharpener in a bag, anyone? Or if you want to get really >> expensive, how about a 1.50 UKP mechanical pencil? > > There's still the graphite dust to consider. It doesn't adhere to paper > nearly as well as ink does. Non-graphite pencil, available from any art shop? -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "[SF is not about predicting the future.] | Work: dg@tao-group.com | We are not prophets; in fact, if we were | Play: dgiven@iname.com | much worse at it, we'd be economists." --- +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ Stephen Dedman ###### From: Will Salt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:08:34 +0100 Organization: Pretty disorganised Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> <776.212T980T8473825@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-92-27.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!candle.btinternet.com!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58689 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > In article <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> > kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) writes: > > >According to the alt.fan.douglas-adams FAQ > >(http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/dna/faqs/dnafaq.html), the > >first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book was released in the UK in > >1979 and in the US in 1980; the second was released in the UK in 1980 > >and in the US in 1982. It would have been quite a feat to have written > >these two books on Macs, unless his writing about time travel is > >actually based on his personal experience. :) > > > >But he is indeed an ardent Mac proponent. > > And indeed, he specifically mentions Macs in > _Dirk_Gently's_Holistic_Detective_Agency_. The acknowlegements in my copy of that book state that it was written and prepared using a Mac, and also IIRC names the software and printer used (can't find the book right now). As you say, there are also mentions of Macs (and specific Midi equipment, IIRC) in the book; one of the main characters is a computer programmer. -- Will Salt ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <962060303.945952@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8jaa1b$f38$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962145009.417188@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:30:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962145027 203.96.152.26 (Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:30:27 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:30:27 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58686 In article <8jaa1b$f38$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: >Yes, maybe it was the YB-40 that I was thinking of. I remember that >it was used, at least once, as a ground attack fighter, although now >that I think about it, that may have been a secondary use. Hmmm. I would have thought a B-17 at low level would be terribly vulnerable to AA fire, not being terribly maneuverable. Mind you, it does compare with the more modern AC-130... >I was just reading about the B-17s that were turned into the radio >controlled missiles last night. Was this operation Aphrodite that >you were referring to? Yep, I was thinking of the Aphrodite birds. Lots more B-17s got turned into target drones after the war. >It might be interesting to see if anyone has any information on the >control systems used. Were they analog computers? (Yikes! Did >this post suddenly drift back onto topic for a.f.c?!?) -- don ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:47:59 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 23 Message-ID: <39593D30.C1023C7@dallas.net> References: <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> <435.213T805T7624334@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58667 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> richmond@dallas.net > (Charles Richmond) writes: > > >For those who are *not* fond of C, I appologize for saying it is > >related to ALGOL...but I believe that it is... Personally, I *like* > >C very much... > > I like C myself - and I think you should also apologize to people > like me who don't like Algol. :-) > Oh, and I do apologize to you also!!! However, since this group is dedicated to the *older* computers and languages, disliking ALGOL may be rather more serious than disliking C... Actually, my apology for C was an attempt to annoy Mr. Shoppa...IIRC he is *not* fond of C. Apparently this attempt has backfired... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 28 Jun 2000 00:02:49 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 6 Message-ID: <8jbfb9$d09$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> <435.213T805T7624334@sky.bus.com> <39593D30.C1023C7@dallas.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 962150569 13321 134.117.136.30 (28 Jun 2000 00:02:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 00:02:49 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58682 Charles Richmond (richmond@dallas.net) writes: > > Actually, my apology for C was an attempt to annoy Mr. Shoppa...IIRC > he is *not* fond of C. Apparently this attempt has backfired... Perhaps you confused T.S. and me. ###### From: greg@apple2.com.invalid Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Organization: II Infinitum References: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> <776.212T980T8473825@sky.bus.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: &@UA7$)=n9C7!qu%-5s},3tR@NEy+B>8PW"^,8?A>%."0{J2c1Yr]NKw';5/( J\r@/{UADjCdE~iRnOEOfbre(/1Y=$TS3Wt7B`a4sz, Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:28:40 CDT X-Trace: sv2-G6PP86ME+l7g5YPLEGdRhia+sYmhlgr2MnIlXcOVTiRsd1cejvx3CKot1wvx/I6Ys8U4OV+UF7oHbeR!7hXmXSGuMJPAGK1QMUXhsAtEYw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:28:46 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!greg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58684 In article , Will Salt wrote: > The acknowlegements in my copy of that book state that it was written > and prepared using a Mac, and also IIRC names the software and printer > used (can't find the book right now). > > As you say, there are also mentions of Macs (and specific Midi > equipment, IIRC) in the book; one of the main characters is a > computer programmer. He also referred to them in pun form as well with the Monk being replaced by the Monk Plus. -- __ _____________ __ \ \_\ \__ __/ /_/ / .\ __ \ | | / __ /---------------------------------------------------- ^ \_\ \_\|_|/_/ /_/ Don't mail me, I'll mail you. ###### Message-ID: <39592560.3F8DB559@trailing-edge.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:06:25 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <3956D22B.16A7F264@dallas.net> <962012148.229699@server16.cable.com> <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@dallas.net> <39576533.61DB5DD2@trailing-edge.com> <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> <435.213T805T7624334@sky.bus.com> <39593D30.C1023C7@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 962157986 848 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58679 Charles Richmond wrote: > > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > > In article <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> richmond@dallas.net > > (Charles Richmond) writes: > > > > >For those who are *not* fond of C, I appologize for saying it is > > >related to ALGOL...but I believe that it is... Personally, I *like* > > >C very much... > > > > I like C myself - and I think you should also apologize to people > > like me who don't like Algol. :-) > > > Oh, and I do apologize to you also!!! However, since this group is > dedicated to the *older* computers and languages, disliking ALGOL may > be rather more serious than disliking C... > > Actually, my apology for C was an attempt to annoy Mr. Shoppa...IIRC > he is *not* fond of C. Apparently this attempt has backfired... Oh, certainly, I'm not fond of C, even though I code in it all the time... Fortran 90 did pick up many "structured programming" features that weren't present in earlier standards, but I think it's unfair to say that it inherited them from C. It'd be like saying that Ford copied the design for the wheel from the folks who made Yugos. Not only is it factually wrong, but it's chronologically backwards as well. Tim. ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:46:10 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> <39596136$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.4c X-Server-Date: 28 Jun 2000 02:46:03 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58693 In article <39596136$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu says... > In article <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov>, > Greg Menke wrote: > >IIRC, Yeager spoke about the 262, basically one flew past him, leaving > >his P-51 standing still- he was impressed & unable to do much of > >anything. I dont' remember if he discussed fighting one... > > My copy of one of his biographies is at home. > I think he got a kill of a 262 as it was landing or taking off at an air > field. Easily checked. > > Yeah, He shot it from behind while it was taking off. -- friend, I am: Howard Lute LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39595d06$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:03:50 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:03:50 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58701 In article , Jack Peacock wrote: >"Nick Spalding" wrote in message >news:rb12lsg3nqoo7hbah9056mmlbq7tkh9qbf@4ax.com... >> Scott Davidson wrote: >> > There was an excellent editorial by John Campbell in Analog >> > in the early '60s called "No Copying Allowed" on just this >> > subject. He discussed how confused a WWII scientist would be >> > by a jet fighter that somehow found its way back in time. Depends on the speciality. There were turbo jet engines in the UK in the 1930s and flying jets in the UK, Germany, England, and Japan (and probably Italy) in the 1940s. They were big deals to people working in the field except the leading edge of technology. They were bigger deals to the naive public who grew used to planes with props. >> An American one maybe but not a British or even more so a German one. >> -- >The US jet program was out at what later became Edwards AFB, east of Los >Angeles. The prototypes were camoflauged with fake propellers over the >intake. Hmm, was it the P-50? P-59. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <962161680.522451@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:08:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 962161698 203.96.152.26 (Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:08:18 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:08:18 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58685 In article <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya wrote: >In article <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net>, >Having just returned from England, the English are just lucky about >stupid German decisions and other factors. But isn't hind sight wonderful. One could argue that any conflict is won by the side making the least stupid decisions... -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:13:18 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:13:18 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!gip.net.MISMATCH!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58671 In article <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about >the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built >a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel >that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in Yep. >WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the >company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the >jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. >Ultimately, Germany would *have* to lose...they were matching their >production capability with the production capability of the rest of >the world practically. Quantitative analysis is essential. Most people don't have an ideas of the numbers. There were a few other things as well. Most people thought German infrastructure was shot. It wasn't, there was lots still producing, but you are right in that it was them against the world. Having just returned from England, the English are just lucky about stupid German decisions and other factors. But isn't hind sight wonderful. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <8it2t5$1iea$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3959605e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:18:06 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:18:06 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58702 In article <8it2t5$1iea$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: >Also, don't forget that the V-1 was based on pulse jet technology. Just saw several V-1s are various Museums in England. >And, then, there's ram jet technology. >Can you imagine someone based >in reciprocating engines attempting to understand a ram jet? >"It's just a hollow tube. How can it provide power?" On the contrary. That's not enough. People who would have studied combustion would see. All kinds of combustion chambers existed from the early 1900s. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39596136$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:21:42 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:21:42 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58697 In article <853dm57h2g.fsf@quahog.gsfc.nasa.gov>, Greg Menke wrote: >IIRC, Yeager spoke about the 262, basically one flew past him, leaving >his P-51 standing still- he was impressed & unable to do much of >anything. I dont' remember if he discussed fighting one... My copy of one of his biographies is at home. I think he got a kill of a 262 as it was landing or taking off at an air field. Easily checked. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395965d4$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:41:24 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:41:24 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58703 In article , John Varela wrote: >On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 00:01:13, "P Linnane" >wrote: >> The Germans were also, according to history, very close to producing an >> atomic bomb, themselves If they were close, then, what method of isotope separation were they using? >Not so. Heisenberg led them down a blind alley. Whether deliberately >or not is a matter of speculation. John is basically right. They were no where near close. The Farm Hall transcripts prove this and Sam Goudsmit's Alsos book published in 1982 confirms this. I also just saw Copenhagen in London last week which had an amusing line about a lack of German cyclotrons. The US spent 10% of it's entire wartime budget to jump start its nuclear program. It employed over 100,000 people. It paled all other efforts at the time by orders of magnitude. Heisenberg never heard of plutonium until August 1945. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <3957060C.2882017F@trailing-edge.com> <3957B6F7.5A6E09C1@d <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39596996$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:57:26 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:57:26 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58700 In article <3957F610.FF77D1A@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >For those who are *not* fond of C, I appologize for saying it is related >to ALGOL...but I believe that it is... Personally, I *like* C very much... I like C a lot, too. Could use a couple more features.... It's related to ALGOL 68 to a tiny degree as in trying to avoid featuritis like it. A partial a68 compiler was briefly available on an early version of Unix. You could flag dmr to give you details. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <776.212T980T8473825@sky.bus.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39596c78$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 20:09:44 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 20:09:44 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58705 There's a fine book titled Crystal Fire by a guy at SLAC and UCSC and a woman at UIUC. Most of the articles publised in places like EE Times are excerpts from this nice book. The building which was Shockley Transistor is photographed in the book next to the Mountain View Sears (MV so far has not memorialized the site [the owner has] because of Shockley's views on race [largely taken out of context]). No far down and off San Antonio Road is California State historic monument 1000: where Noyce et al left to start Fairchild and go on to Intel, etc. --Michael Riordan/Lillian Hoddeson Crystal Fire: The Birth of the Information Age, 1997. A lot of other guys worked with BB&S. It was an amazing story. I was standing with our Museum's curator next to one of BB&S's photos (the classic one). He's going to run over to my old boss (who was BB&S's boss when he was at Bell Labs [he was my boss at JPL]) and going to run over to John's rest home to try to get him to sign this photo. Unfortunately, I can't get any of the BTL guys to come visit John. But I am playing messenger between John and Marvin Minsky. And it's a little fun. ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <962167567.660220@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-38.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:20:10 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962167435 204.92.64.17 (Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:43:55 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:43:55 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58675 Heinkel developed a jet fighter that never made production, designation escapes me, but I believe the name was "Peoples Fighter"(Volks . . . ) :I didn't know they developed an ejection seat (learn something new every day), I'm pretty sure the Sabre didn't have one, though the SuperSabre did (F-100 same company different design). "Eugene Miya" wrote in message news:39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu... > In article <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >You mean a jet fighter like the Messerschmit ME-262??? Or how about > >the ME-163 rocket plane??? I used to think that the Nazis just built > >a couple of experimental models, then I heard on the history channel > >that they built *400* ME-262's!!! Also, another German company in > > Yep. > > >WWII developed the ejection seat for their jet plane...I think the > >company was Hankel. Indeed, if Hitler had put his money more into the > >jet and rocket programs, WWII could have lasted several more years. > >Ultimately, Germany would *have* to lose...they were matching their > >production capability with the production capability of the rest of > >the world practically. > > Quantitative analysis is essential. Most people don't have an ideas of > the numbers. There were a few other things as well. Most people > thought German infrastructure was shot. It wasn't, there was lots > still producing, but you are right in that it was them against the world. > > Having just returned from England, the English are just lucky about > stupid German decisions and other factors. But isn't hind sight wonderful. > ###### From: Luis Fernandes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 28 Jun 2000 09:04:02 -0400 Organization: Ryerson Polytechnic University Lines: 12 Sender: elf@genesis Message-ID: References: <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <3951D5FE.3DC32F6C@dallas.net> <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962161680.522451@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: sulfur.ee.ryerson.ca X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.42/Emacs 19.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news3.bellglobal.com!torn!news.ryerson.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58680 >>>>> "don" == Don Stokes writes: don> One could argue that any conflict is won by the side making don> the least stupid decisions... I'm currently reading "The Codebreakers" by David Kahn (I bought the hardcover for my personal library-- $CND 88.00). In addition to being an excellent history of cryptology, it is also an excellent history of the sheer amount of stupidity that takes place in the heat of the battle and the resulting cost in number of lives lost. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 27 Jun 00 12:44:50 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: <543.213T2537T7645474@sky.bus.com> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-351.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!207.211.168.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58672 In article bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) writes: >That is so true with all revolutionary (as opposed to evolutionary) >developments. The future changes so great the originators could >never envision them, just as Edison could see nothing more from >movies than cheap entertainment nor use the phonograph for anything >more than dictation. You're right - now they're _both_ used for cheap entertainment. :-) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 08:19:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8jcmk8$j3s$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <39595e72$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Trace: d9TE46SJUfzd4ix1R0nyCtkHUKhxS+mZtFG6M0qxwIg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 11:13:12 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-207 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58674 In article <39595e72$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >In article <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: >>Yeah, it's too bad the Soviets did *not* try to steal the DEC Rainbow >>technology...the cold war could have been over a lot sooner. > >But they did. >I've got a Soviet bloc VAX clone in a building not far from me. You missed the joke, the point, and etc. The Rainbow I used was not a VAX. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 08:21:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Trace: a8PY/4vM61Q2Bph+scZ+sHuQH9lxyjKLdCodN8NF4j4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 11:15:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-207 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58677 In article <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >>> I disagree. Those guys were clever and managed to produce >>> magic. Given bad and flakey hardware, they still could >>> program miracles. If they had Rainbows, there's no telling >>> what they could have done. On second thought, if we gave >>> them the Rainbows with the proviso that they also had >>> to take the product managers... > >They had their own bad managers. > >In article <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: >>Yeah, the managers too...and think about it. The Soviets could *not* >>nuke the US because they would have to buy their *formatted* floppy >>diskettes from DEC... > >It didn't have to be floppies. Sigh! You sure don't know how DEC screwed itself. He was slyly commenting on pricing and selling policies that made no sense to anybody in DEC (that I could find). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 28 Jun 2000 00:01:15 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8jbf8b$cta$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <543.213T2537T7645474@sky.bus.com> <39593C63.3CBE4460@dallas.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 962150475 13226 134.117.136.30 (28 Jun 2000 00:01:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 00:01:15 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58683 Charles Richmond (richmond@dallas.net) writes: > I am just wondering how GPS will be used for entertainment...I am sure > someone will figure that out... Well, for suitable values of entertainment, it's been done. As the price of GPS recievers went down from military procurement only to - private aircraft, in the order of biz jets to homebuilts; - private boats, descending from yachts to kayaks; - hikers and other outdoor sports; - luxury cars sporting builtin moving maps a la 007 in Goldfinger to handhelds assisting motorists seeking restaurants or brothels. And I'm guessing the confinement business has hooked up an untamper- able GPS-Internet appliance to keep track of miscreants under house arrest. (If not, I've got dibs on that idea!) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39595e72$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:09:54 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:09:54 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58704 In article <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Yeah, it's too bad the Soviets did *not* try to steal the DEC Rainbow >technology...the cold war could have been over a lot sooner. But they did. I've got a Soviet bloc VAX clone in a building not far from me. I have spoken with Russians who programmed that model (it ran VMS). There's an IEEE Annuals of the History of Computing special issue on East Block computing which covers all this. Von Neumann saw the problem back in the 1960s when he visited, and one of the ex-Soviets wrote a great article extrapolating on how he was right. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 27 Jun 2000 19:27:17 -0800 X-Trace: 27 Jun 2000 19:27:17 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58699 >> I disagree. Those guys were clever and managed to produce >> magic. Given bad and flakey hardware, they still could >> program miracles. If they had Rainbows, there's no telling >> what they could have done. On second thought, if we gave >> them the Rainbows with the proviso that they also had >> to take the product managers... They had their own bad managers. In article <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Yeah, the managers too...and think about it. The Soviets could *not* >nuke the US because they would have to buy their *formatted* floppy >diskettes from DEC... It didn't have to be floppies. Pulling a board out of the Robotron is something. The ICs are a mix of Eastern and Western (mostly Western) companies: most US: Motorola, and the like, but also Western European (like Feranti). The Eastern ICs were mostly Tesla. They weren't stupid however. They did upgrade from the 8 inch floppies to 5.25 inch, and they used a CRT for the console rather than a DECwriter. However on the inside is a bizzare mix of 110v and 220v plugs. I think this contributed to their problems...... The James Bond money where Bond gets a medal for saving Silicon Valley is closer to truth than most people realize. ###### From: Will Salt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 28 Jun 2000 20:20:20 +0100 Organization: Pretty disorganised Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <961893003.576400@server16.cable.com> <395652D2.6100E098@dallas.net> <3mv55.2958$fB2.48540@news-east.usenetserver.com> <776.212T980T8473825@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-83-249.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!candle.btinternet.com!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58734 greg@apple2.com.invalid writes: > In article , > Will Salt wrote: > > > The acknowlegements in my copy of that book state that it was written > > and prepared using a Mac, and also IIRC names the software and printer > > used (can't find the book right now). > > > > As you say, there are also mentions of Macs (and specific Midi > > equipment, IIRC) in the book; one of the main characters is a > > computer programmer. > > He also referred to them in pun form as well with the Monk being > replaced by the Monk Plus. Can't help thinking that I could do with a Monk G4, to believe everything I see on the Web for me :-) -- Will Salt ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962161680.522451@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395ab021$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 28 Jun 2000 19:10:41 -0800 X-Trace: 28 Jun 2000 19:10:41 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58706 In article , Luis Fernandes wrote: >>>>>> "don" == Don Stokes writes: > don> One could argue that any conflict is won by the side making > don> the least stupid decisions... > >I'm currently reading "The Codebreakers" by David Kahn (I bought the >hardcover for my personal library-- $CND 88.00). Boy I remember when this book first came out. Quite a stink. I was in junior high. The photos and the technology are seriously out of date (even for 1968). But the history is well written. I'm currently reading Cryptonomicron. I would guess that one of these days I might chance to run into Kahn as part of work. It's just a matter of time. >In addition to being an excellent history of cryptology, it is also >an excellent history of the sheer amount of stupidity that takes >place in the heat of the battle and the resulting cost in number of >lives lost. True. That's part of why it's called the fog of war. You have to be careful attempting to apply logic to warfare. While I was in the hospital last year, Gwen Bell phoned me up and said that I had to read Gordon Welchman's The Hut Six Story. After I got out I hear her copy. She is right. Excepting a few poorly made diagrams, it's an important work. Welchman died 3 years later after being stripped of his clearance. Saturday last, I stood next to Hut 6 at Bletchley. The real trick is to ask the right questions. I am not clear that many, myself included, can do that. If you go down this literature path, you will get to reports/author/historians like Bamford and Burrows. The challenge is for those outside those circles knowing what's real, what's hyped up, and what's false. I think I'd rather stay with remote sensing technologies. That's its own story. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 08:09:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8jfae3$93b$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Trace: zZYCE1W6ZNs5GMzQUO7/rm7XtYZCYVdz443wkxdjh8I= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 11:03:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-168 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58713 In article , optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) wrote: >In article <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu says... >> In article <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >> >Sigh! You sure don't know how DEC screwed itself. He was >> >slyly commenting on pricing and selling policies that made >> >no sense to anybody in DEC (that I could find). >> >> Oh, actually, I have a pretty good idea. >> I work with Gordon Bell. And his wife on their Museum. >> >> Economics never is supposed to make sense. It only has to appear to >> make sense. That's how people make money in the margins. The airlines >> are a good current example. >> >> >> >> In 1978 I needed an RS-232 cable. DEC wanted $120 for it. >> I went down to the Byte Shop in Pasadena and got it for $20. >> Lockheed wasn't the only firm to make "$600" tiolet seats and expensive >> hammers. >> >> >> >Yeah in 1978 DEC had machines in a SF computer store...along side Apple >I's, first IBM PC...the difference...cost. They were astronomically >expensive IF well built. We did??!!! I don't remember going retail back then. Are you sure it wasn't a third party package? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 08:08:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Trace: FmluH4m9lcd6t93TpRyEY4a88Zc3iqpgCr8Cf9E98A0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 11:02:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-168 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58716 In article <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >In article <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>Sigh! You sure don't know how DEC screwed itself. He was >>slyly commenting on pricing and selling policies that made >>no sense to anybody in DEC (that I could find). > >Oh, actually, I have a pretty good idea. >I work with Gordon Bell. And his wife on their Museum. That explains it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <39595e72$1@news.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Lines: 14 Organization: Simco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:18:46 EDT Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:18:28 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58745 "Eugene Miya" wrote in message news:39595e72$1@news.ucsc.edu... > But they did. > I've got a Soviet bloc VAX clone in a building not far from me. > I have spoken with Russians who programmed that model (it ran VMS). > If you put the VAX at one end of DEC engineering achievements, along with the PDP-10, then at the other end would be the Rainbow, a me-too sorta PC clone with both a Z80 and an 8088, combining the worst features of both. Neither the Soviets or anyone else bothered to copy that design. It was obsolete before it was out the door, enjoying a short life only because of the DEC badge on the case. Jack Peacock ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:51:14 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.60 X-Server-Date: 29 Jun 2000 01:51:03 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58735 In article <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu says... > In article <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >Sigh! You sure don't know how DEC screwed itself. He was > >slyly commenting on pricing and selling policies that made > >no sense to anybody in DEC (that I could find). > > Oh, actually, I have a pretty good idea. > I work with Gordon Bell. And his wife on their Museum. > > Economics never is supposed to make sense. It only has to appear to > make sense. That's how people make money in the margins. The airlines > are a good current example. > > > > In 1978 I needed an RS-232 cable. DEC wanted $120 for it. > I went down to the Byte Shop in Pasadena and got it for $20. > Lockheed wasn't the only firm to make "$600" tiolet seats and expensive > hammers. > > > Yeah in 1978 DEC had machines in a SF computer store...along side Apple I's, first IBM PC...the difference...cost. They were astronomically expensive IF well built. -- friend, I am: Howard Lute LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 29 Jun 2000 02:12:32 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 962244752 29068 134.117.136.30 (29 Jun 2000 02:12:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 02:12:32 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58731 Eugene Miya (eugene@cse.ucsc.edu) writes: > > In 1978 I needed an RS-232 cable. DEC wanted $120 for it. > I went down to the Byte Shop in Pasadena and got it for $20. Betcha if your DEC apparatus quit, the blame was on the cheapo non-approved, (and if not every D25 pin was connected) cable and any service agreement went out the window. But you knew that. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 30 Jun 2000 16:45:12 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8jiiqo$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <8iro0p$6gl$1@engnews1.eng.s NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58787 Adam Sampson wrote: : In article , Kragen : Sitaker wrote: : >That is, if there was a high-tech and a low-tech way of doing a job, : >NASA tended to choose the high-tech way and scorn the low-tech way, : >while the Soviet space program tended to do it the low-tech way. : My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the "Space : Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just used pencils. It seems like deja vu all over again (sorry Yogi). I swear I read this thread about two years ago. Anyway, does this mean that the pencil is mightier than both sword and pen in zero Gee? Eric ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 07:47:41 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8jhthd$15a$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> X-Trace: UWi9PhIJPDT78F60C1QhquEjAKPEMYXIEYWy7oDgxNM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jun 2000 10:41:49 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-233 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58775 In article <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com>, "P Linnane" wrote: >How many software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb ? We preferred to be comfortable and used a bed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "P Linnane" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Lines: 4 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> Cache-Post-Path: server16.cable.com!unknown@vp1-75.xcessible.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:44:20 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.92.64.17 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 962311407 204.92.64.17 (Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:43:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:43:27 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58783 How many software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb ? ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:29:22 +0100 Message-ID: <395BCDC2.59FD4E20@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962317934 nnrp-06:1374 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58799 P Linnane wrote: > > How many software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb ? None, it's a hardware problem. How many M$ sales execs does it take to change a light bulb? None, dark is the default in the next version. (From uk.religion.christian) How many trinitarians does it take to change a lightbulb? Three, but they are really all the same person. How many anglicans does it take to change a light bulb? Change? Anglicans don't change anything. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jfae3$93b$3@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:56:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 962319382 24.91.12.15 (Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:56:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:56:22 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58811 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>Yeah in 1978 DEC had machines in a SF computer store...along side Apple >>I's, first IBM PC...the difference...cost. They were astronomically >>expensive IF well built. >We did??!!! I don't remember going retail back then. Are you >sure it wasn't a third party package? The timeframe sure was right. Not long after I left DEC (July 1978) and moved to New Hampshire, DEC opened a retail store in the Mall of NH. IIRC, you could buy preformatted floppies there. :-) I think DEC kept it open for a couple years before deciding retail wasn't the place to be. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:02:50 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 11 Message-ID: <395BE3AA.C3911A89@dallas.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58751 P Linnane wrote: > > How many software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb ? > None...that's a hardware problem. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395c02fc$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 29 Jun 2000 19:16:28 -0800 X-Trace: 29 Jun 2000 19:16:28 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58747 In article <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu>, > eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >>Oh, actually, I have a pretty good idea. >>I work with Gordon Bell. And his wife on their Museum. > >That explains it. I'm using Gwen's iMac at the moment. They are an interesting pair. One realizes that one can argue with Gordon to a draw at best (I have successfully done this, once). Good people in computing tend to be fairly head strong and lacking in time, and their Museum has given me wonderful opportunities to meet people whom I read about while as a student, get nice endorsements (Knuth), share a drink (Backus). And dinners are fun, too. I can borrow our Museum's Enigma (within the USA). I can speak for the Museum (I troll historic artifacts for them). The term transistor was coined by my boss the Chief Engineer of JPL at the time, John Pierce. I took Gwen to see him in his rest home. I was in a rest home exactly a year ago for pneumonia so I know exactly what John is going thru. I tried to get other Bell Labbies to try to visit John without a great deal of success (hard when you are 3K miles away in NJ). I'm trying to answer a question for another long time friend who knew Pierce, but John can't remember the answer. That's age. Our Museum curator wants to take a picture of the original transistor for John to autograph. I'm just trying to keep my former boss' brain active, but it's hard, and the home is not populated by EEs (even in the middle of "Silicon Valley"). ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jfae3$93b$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.49 X-Server-Date: 30 Jun 2000 03:22:19 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58808 In article , werme@nospam.mediaone.net says... > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >>Yeah in 1978 DEC had machines in a SF computer store...along side Apple > >>I's, first IBM PC...the difference...cost. They were astronomically > >>expensive IF well built. > > > >We did??!!! I don't remember going retail back then. Are you > >sure it wasn't a third party package? > > The timeframe sure was right. Not long after I left DEC (July 1978) and > moved to New Hampshire, DEC opened a retail store in the Mall of NH. IIRC, > you could buy preformatted floppies there. :-) > > I think DEC kept it open for a couple years before deciding retail wasn't > the place to be. > -- > Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net > http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete > The time is pretty close, my friend and I were working the Commodore Pet OS (THATS another story) and the DEC looked pretty good to us at the time, BYTE mag was 1/2" thick too! I coveted that DEC but couldn't believe the price! Orange Micro had a store across the street with every available dot matrix printer ever made...wide carriages, narrow carriages, the noisiest shop you were EVER in! LOL -- friend, I am: Howard Lute LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### From: optcamel@ix.netcom.com (Howard and Kelly Lute) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:17:11 -0700 Organization: Optimum Camel Companies, Ltd. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> <395BE3AA.C3911A89@dallas.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.df.a8.49 X-Server-Date: 30 Jun 2000 03:22:51 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58806 In article <395BE3AA.C3911A89@dallas.net>, richmond@dallas.net says... > P Linnane wrote: > > > > How many software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb ? > > > None...that's a hardware problem. > > > Take a core dump... -- friend, I am: Howard Lute LPFM Site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~optcamel/fmradio.htm Try this site BEFORE you buy -->http://www.epinions.com ###### Message-ID: <395C2AFB.63D76FDA@cmc.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:07:07 -0700 From: Lars Poulsen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers To: Eugene Miya Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <395c02fc$1@news.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.90.88 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 962341576 194 207.154.90.88 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58813 Eugene Miya wrote: > [Gordon Bell and Gwen and "their" Museum] > Good people in computing tend to be fairly head strong and lacking in time, > and their Museum has given me wonderful opportunities to meet people I'm jealous. This is one of the few advantages I see to living in the Bay area. Well, I guess I'll have to make do with work, beach and mountains down here ... I presume that it's the Computer Museum History Center at Moffett you are talking about. Would love to see it some time; can one just drop in on a Saturday afternoon? I could not find exhibit hours anywhere on the web-site (http://www.computerhistory.org/) I admire Gordon Bell's work, read his retrospective of DEC designs twice. It still jolts me to see him now working for "the evil empire". -- / Lars Poulsen - http://www.cmc.com/lars - lars@cmc.com 125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277 ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:54:49 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8jimt9$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.u NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.axxsys.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58780 P Linnane wrote: : How many software engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb ? It depends on if they are from Caltech or MIT. All others: one Eric ###### From: John Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:28:00 -0700 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 8 Message-ID: <395CE6B0.BE7666AD@cisco.com> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <3951D403.AF334CA0@dallas.net> <8istuq$6dc$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <39531527.F2000766@dallas.net> <39596285$1@news.u <8jimt9$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-5!unknown@dhcp-171-68-135-18.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58746 How many Californians does it take to screw in a light bulb? We don't screw in light bulbs; we screw in hot tubs. -- Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket? ###### Message-ID: <395E5B9C.CE80348E@mail.bcpl.net> From: Ken McMonigal X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? References: <776.212T980T8473825@sky.bus.com> <39596c78$1@news.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:59:08 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.242.127.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bcpl.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 962485038 208.242.127.17 (Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:57:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:57:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58861 Eugene Miya wrote: > There's a fine book titled Crystal Fire by a guy at SLAC and UCSC > and a woman at UIUC. Most of the articles publised in places like EE > Times are excerpts from this nice book. The building which was Shockley > Transistor is photographed in the book next to the Mountain View Sears > (MV so far has not memorialized the site [the owner has] because of > Shockley's views on race [largely taken out of context]). No far down > and off San Antonio Road is California State historic monument 1000: where > Noyce et al left to start Fairchild and go on to Intel, etc. > > --Michael Riordan/Lillian Hoddeson > Crystal Fire: The Birth of the Information Age, 1997. > > A lot of other guys worked with BB&S. It was an amazing story. > I was standing with our Museum's curator next to one of BB&S's photos > (the classic one). He's going to run over to my old boss (who was BB&S's > boss when he was at Bell Labs [he was my boss at JPL]) and going to run over > to John's rest home to try to get him to sign this photo. > Unfortunately, I can't get any of the BTL guys to come visit John. > But I am playing messenger between John and Marvin Minsky. > And it's a little fun. I remember Shockley's appearance at Case Tech around 1975. There was a bomb threat and auditorium was cleared for awhile. Balcony crowd used noisemakers to disrupt speech. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Sun, 02 Jul 00 07:47:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8jn6a6$q20$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <395c02fc$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395C2AFB.63D76FDA@cmc.com> <395d3f12$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net> X-Trace: evghlmAKXKv4y82/SNzMOyrhG8tSOz9+rZjVvJCghuk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2000 10:42:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-118 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58867 In article <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Eugene Miya wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] >> >> We have a growing cadre of good volunteers who work on weekends. >> One group restored an IBM 1620 to working condition. >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >Kind of a Cadet cadre, huh.... >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> You can meet and work with Gordon, too. >> He's actually quite approachable if sometimes salty in tongue. >> You hook him right, and he will be your friend, too. >> We are going to have a DEC retrospective seminar with Dave Cutler and a >> slew of others who worked under Gordon in the coming months. >> >You do *not* have to tell Dave Cutler that you like Windows NT, do you??? >Some of the old DEC people would have a hard time telling him that they >like VMS, much less WNT. > It won't matter. He won't listen, either. Cutler and Bell were cut from the same cloth. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:15:25 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 27 Message-ID: <395D0DED.7CF62D76@dallas.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> <395BE3AA.C3911A89@dallas.net> <8jgjrn$ha57$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58842 "S.C.Sprong" wrote: > > [various light bulb jokes deleted] > Man: "How many women with PMS does it take to change a light bulb?" Woman: "It takes one hundred and three..." Man: "Why one hundred and three???" Woman: "Because it just does, okay!!!" > > And to keep it folkloric: what are the first geeky computer related > jokes? That idiotic James Barry, who Just Doesn't Get It, writes in > his book 'Technobabble' that CS types have no sense of humour, but I > have never found more extensive collections of jokes, quips, and other > humoria, related to computers or not, than on a computer. > The man you are talking about is Dave Barry, and he does write some very humorous books... There was a very good section in his book _Clawing Your Way to the Top_ that concerned how to attend a meeting... very funny and very true...kind of pre-Dilbert Dilbert. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <395c02fc$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395C2AFB.63D76FDA@cmc.com> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395d3f12$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:45:06 -0800 X-Trace: 30 Jun 2000 17:45:06 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58825 In article <395C2AFB.63D76FDA@cmc.com>, Lars Poulsen wrote: >Eugene Miya wrote: >> [Gordon Bell and Gwen and "their" Museum] >> Good people in computing tend to be fairly head strong and lacking in time, >> and their Museum has given me wonderful opportunities to meet people > >I'm jealous. This is one of the few advantages I see to living >in the Bay area. Well, I guess I'll have to make do with work, >beach and mountains down here ... Our Museum has open (largely) public events. These are the best time for casual visits during the receptions. A problem a couple months ago was with one paroled felon, who had a misunderstanding. It's still a Federal facility (one where the President frequently lands). >I presume that it's the Computer Museum History Center at Moffett >you are talking about. Would love to see it some time; can one just >drop in on a Saturday afternoon? I could not find exhibit hours >anywhere on the web-site (http://www.computerhistory.org/) No set hours. Yet. We have to build a building (in planning). But an interesting part of the collection is visible. We have a growing cadre of good volunteers who work on weekends. One group restored an IBM 1620 to working condition. I work with a group trying to restore our Enigma (that gives interesting opportunities). We still have others interested in Multics. Another group interested in getting SpaceWar running on a PDP-1. I want our Robotron running again. We direct many first time seers to come Wednesday afternoons, but people bearing historic artifacts, we bend over backward for. One of the Bletchley guys will be visiting us in August. >I admire Gordon Bell's work, read his retrospective of DEC designs >twice. It still jolts me to see him now working for "the evil empire". You can meet and work with Gordon, too. He's actually quite approachable if sometimes salty in tongue. You hook him right, and he will be your friend, too. We are going to have a DEC retrospective seminar with Dave Cutler and a slew of others who worked under Gordon in the coming months. ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:14:57 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 22 Message-ID: <49d74ab3c4a__fake__address@127.0.0.1> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> <395BCDC2.59FD4E20@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: userco87.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 962457361 23793 62.188.156.17 (1 Jul 2000 13:16:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2000 13:16:01 GMT User-Agent: Pluto/1.14i (RISC-OS/4.03) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58874 In article <395BCDC2.59FD4E20@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob) wrote: > How many anglicans does it take to change a light bulb? > Change? Anglicans don't change anything. Q: How many Tangerine Dream fans does it take to change a light bulb? A: None. It sounds much better in the dark. Dave Daniels -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:15:07 +0100 Message-ID: <395E0AFB.3401E6A8@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> <395BCDC2.59FD4E20@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <49d74ab3c4a__fake__address@127.0.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962464650 nnrp-08:5373 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58880 Dave Daniels wrote: > Q: How many Tangerine Dream fans does it take to change a light bulb? > A: None. It sounds much better in the dark. That takes you back. I had an account on an IBM 370/165 when "stratosfear" was released. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:18:56 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 26 Message-ID: <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jfabn$93b$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <395c02fc$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395C2AFB.63D76FDA@cmc.com> <395d3f12$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58830 Eugene Miya wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] > > We have a growing cadre of good volunteers who work on weekends. > One group restored an IBM 1620 to working condition. > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > Kind of a Cadet cadre, huh.... > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > You can meet and work with Gordon, too. > He's actually quite approachable if sometimes salty in tongue. > You hook him right, and he will be your friend, too. > We are going to have a DEC retrospective seminar with Dave Cutler and a > slew of others who worked under Gordon in the coming months. > You do *not* have to tell Dave Cutler that you like Windows NT, do you??? Some of the old DEC people would have a hard time telling him that they like VMS, much less WNT. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <395C2AFB.63D76FDA@cmc.com> <395d3f12$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395e7a97$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 1 Jul 2000 16:11:19 -0800 X-Trace: 1 Jul 2000 16:11:19 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58827 In article <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Eugene Miya wrote: >> One group restored an IBM 1620 to working condition. >> >Kind of a Cadet cadre, huh.... Our volunteers are great. We could not exist without them. And you can become one if you want, too. And we have a really long way to go. I've seen far more fanatic volunteers having just come back from England. >You do *not* have to tell Dave Cutler that you like Windows NT, do you??? No. 8^) >Some of the old DEC people would have a hard time telling him that they >like VMS, much less WNT. Oh, yes, I know what you mean. I think it's a problem with not just Dave (re: NT). I'd bet Rashid is up with them. Gwen invited me to join them watch Dave race cars, but that's not my thing. There's quite a few other racers in computing. ###### From: Luis Fernandes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: 02 Jul 2000 10:47:49 -0400 Organization: Ryerson Polytechnic University Lines: 24 Sender: elf@genesis Message-ID: References: <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962161680.522451@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <395ab021$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sulfur.ee.ryerson.ca X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.42/Emacs 19.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!news.ryerson.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58952 >>>>> "eugene" == Eugene Miya writes: eugene> Boy I remember when this book first came out. Quite a eugene> stink. I was in junior high. The photos and the eugene> technology are seriously out of date (even for 1968). eugene> But the history is well written. I'm a bit further into the book now and it seems to have quite an American bias to it-- Turing and the Enigma is hardly mentioned. The one impression I've come away from reading this book is how common cryptology was throughout history. Watching any period movie, for example, "Elizabeth" or even "the Three Muskeeters" cryptology is *never* mentioned or even hinted at. Typically, a note is quickly scribbled off on a piece of parchment by the monarch and handed to the messenger who runs off to his horse. While the book tells how Elizabeth I, Cardinal Richieleu, etc. encoded their correspondence (or decrypted their enemy's correspondence) lest their messenger be captured and the plaintext message read. eugene> ... Gordon Welchman's The Hut Six Story.... Noted. It is on my summer reading list after _Fermat's Enigma_, by Singh and _Anil's Ghost_, by Ondaatje. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <395d3f12$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net> <8jn6a6$q20$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <395f7633$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 2 Jul 2000 10:04:51 -0800 X-Trace: 2 Jul 2000 10:04:51 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58960 In article <8jn6a6$q20$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >It won't matter. He won't listen, either. Cutler and Bell were >cut from the same cloth. Actually, I would say that most people are like this to some degree, usually it's only the topic which varies. And with success, the person gets reinforced more and more. ###### Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? From: Jeff Hellige Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: <030720001425579735%jhellige@earthlink.net> References: <39552336.B2BBF74D@dallas.net> <8j7pud$13v4$5@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <962060303.945952@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8jaa1b$f38$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1 Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:21:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.23.231.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 962648466 63.23.231.30 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:21:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:21:06 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsf1.elp.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59036 In article <8jaa1b$f38$2@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: > It seems that they were turned into an open cockpit design to assist > the pilot/co-pilot in exiting the plane. They were flown by a crew > of two from the take-off point until they had achieved stable > flight, and then the crew bailed out, with the remainder of the > flight being controlled by a remote control/autopilot system. > Unfortunately, they were not very successful, with some > crashing/exploding on take off, some being shot down, and others > experiencing control problems resulting in erratic flight. A large number of B-17's were also used as unpiloted drones here in the U.S. throughout the 1950's for various reasons. Jeff -- http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ file ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 08:12:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8jps4h$9ds$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <395d3f12$1@news.ucsc.edu> <395E4420.DBFEB90@dallas.net> <8jn6a6$q20$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <395f7633$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Trace: ncpBmIDbWZ8aIVhrmDpiVdWHYNPs+uCGwRyxC0kjxEA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2000 11:06:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-136 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58999 In article <395f7633$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >In article <8jn6a6$q20$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>It won't matter. He won't listen, either. Cutler and Bell were >>cut from the same cloth. > >Actually, I would say that most people are like this to some degree, >usually it's only the topic which varies. And with success, the person >gets reinforced more and more. > I noticed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <395FA971.281F17E4@buckhorn.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 15:43:29 -0500 From: Bob Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.129.165.66 X-Trace: 2 Jul 2000 15:42:43 -0500, 208.129.165.66 Lines: 28 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!local-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!spamkiller.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!208.129.165.66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58979 Jack Peacock wrote: > > "Tim Shoppa" wrote in message > news:39509A81.6A327456@trailing-edge.com... > > > > Where do you hook up filament voltage and B+ to it? Does it plug > > into an octal socket? > > > I believe there was some attempt to retrofit transistors into tube > sockets, though I doubt they were pin compatible. IIRC it took quite a > few years to make a reliable cheap transistor horizontal flyback. I had > a Zenith Color TV in the 70s that was nearly all solid state except for > the mechanical tuner and tubes for the rectifier and flyback. Tubes > never failed, it was the tuner that eventually wore out. AFAIK it's > still running, the guy I gave it to put in a new tuner and hauled it off > to his goat farm. > Jack Peacock RCA and Zenith both made transistorized 9 pin tube replacements in the late 60's and early 70's. It was cheaper for them to build replacement "tubes" with transistors/ic than it was to make them the old fashioned way. You can still get them (transistor tubes) from speciality electronics stores. Bob -- "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jgjrn$ha57$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> <395D0DED.7CF62D76@dallas.net> <8joj30$11jf3$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 32 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 00:19:04 EDT Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:19:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58963 In article <8joj30$11jf3$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de>, S.C.Sprong wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >No, I am referring to the merkin journalist John Barry who writes, or By "merkin", do you mean "Merkin" aka "Yankee"? >John Barry is actually speaking from the marketing side of computer >business, where his book is, or was, rather well-known. For me, the >value of "Technobabble" lies in its compact display of Suit-Think. The author's suitthink, or somebody else's? >In contrast, Dave Barry is a newspaper journalist whose columns are >widely quoted by the computer literate, for example in the BSD >'fortune' file. IMHO, Dave Barry is, at present, a humorist, not a journalist. >Widely copied and found on many hard drives. ("To really succeed in a >business or organization, it is sometimes helpful to know what your job >is, and whether it involves any duties..., etc.") Another rather nice >piece is his "Cyberspace". I was most amused when I read that book to discover that his canonical example of a Usenet conversation was an alt.sex.wizards thread I'd participated in. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### From: "Simon Bowring" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:31:18 +0100 (BST) Organization: MPC Data Limited Distribution: World Message-ID: References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> Reply-To: "Simon Bowring" NNTP-Posting-Host: bath.mpc-data.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mpc-data.demon.co.uk:158.152.55.245 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 962648408 nnrp-10:24155 NO-IDENT mpc-data.demon.co.uk:158.152.55.245 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: PMINews 2.00.1205 For OS/2 Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mpc-data.demon.co.uk!burton.mpc-data.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:58992 On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:40:55 GMT, Bill Vermillion wrote: >"3D will have more impact on the motion >picture industry than either color or sound". In time, maybe it will (just not the 3D that he meant) ;-) ###### Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? From: Jeff Hellige Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: <030720001434562203%jhellige@earthlink.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <543.213T2537T7645474@sky.bus.com> <39593C63.3CBE4460@dallas.net> <8jbf8b$cta$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1 Lines: 29 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:30:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.23.231.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 962649006 63.23.231.30 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:30:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:30:06 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!cyclone.rdc-detw.rr.com!news.mw.mediaone.net!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59034 In article <8jbf8b$cta$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > Charles Richmond (richmond@dallas.net) writes: > > > I am just wondering how GPS will be used for entertainment...I am sure > > someone will figure that out... > > Well, for suitable values of entertainment, it's been done. As the > price of GPS recievers went down from military procurement only to > - private aircraft, in the order of biz jets to homebuilts; > - private boats, descending from yachts to kayaks; > - hikers and other outdoor sports; > - luxury cars sporting builtin moving maps a la 007 in Goldfinger > to handhelds assisting motorists seeking restaurants or brothels. I had access to an interesting GPS navigation system built around a Macintosh computer where the Mac took the positioning data from the GPS and overlaid it on detailed maps of the eastern U.S. coast. These maps could be zoomed as far in or out as you wished and were used on a fairly large (200 ton) boat. It was quite an interesting system, with the Mac and a 19-21" display hidden inside a cabinet and most of the interaction with it was done with a trackball. Jeff -- http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ file ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:46:10 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <39595f3e$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962161680.522451@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <395ab021$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.137.17 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.137.17 X-Trace: 4 Jul 2000 00:46:10 -0700, 207.148.137.17 Lines: 21 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!hekyl.ab.tac.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.137.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59118 On 02 Jul 2000 10:47:49 -0400, Luis Fernandes wrote: >>>>>> "eugene" == Eugene Miya writes: > > eugene> Boy I remember when this book first came out. Quite a > eugene> stink. I was in junior high. The photos and the > eugene> technology are seriously out of date (even for 1968). > eugene> But the history is well written. > >I'm a bit further into the book now and it seems to have quite an >American bias to it-- Turing and the Enigma is hardly mentioned. Look for a small book entitled: "The Big Idea: Turing and the Computer", Paul Strathern, Anchor Books, May 1999, ISBN 0-385-49243-X. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: Kirk Is Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology?? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8iqqng$24c$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com> <8jiiqo$h17@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Lines: 30 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 06:25:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.64.23.37 X-Complaints-To: news@tufts.edu X-Trace: news.tufts.edu 963815152 130.64.23.37 (Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:25:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:25:52 EDT Organization: Tufts University Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59874 Eric Chomko wrote: > Adam Sampson wrote: > : In article , Kragen > : Sitaker wrote: > : >That is, if there was a high-tech and a low-tech way of doing a job, > : >NASA tended to choose the high-tech way and scorn the low-tech way, > : >while the Soviet space program tended to do it the low-tech way. > : My favourite example being that NASA funded the development of the "Space > : Pen" for writing in zero gravity, whereas the Soviets just used pencils. > It seems like deja vu all over again (sorry Yogi). I swear I read this > thread about two years ago. > Anyway, does this mean that the pencil is mightier than both sword and > pen in zero Gee? Well, I'll add in what I read, probably in a similar thread as well- the expensive space pen vs. pencil thing says more than most people give it credit-- fact is, a pencil in a self-contained environment such as a spacecraft is a less than optimal solution, given the wood shavings and little bits of graphite assoicated with it, and sensitive(ish) systems like life support. Soviet design was often cheap + cheerful, but also made compromises that the USA wouldn't, since it had the option of throwing more money at it. (Not that they aren't guilty of the occasional over-engineering, under-thought-out project....) -- Kirk Israel [spamblock in effect, use kirk@alienbill.com] DEALING WITH MORTALITY: A Skeptic's Guide - http://kisrael.com/mortal/ ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Transistor was alien technology????? Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:35:41 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3972B74E.F58785C7@ev1.net> References: <8iq65q$8fm$1@nina.pacific.net.au> <8jcmol$j3s$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <395aa778$1@news.ucsc.edu> <8jebag$scc$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <395ab466$1@news.ucsc.edu> <962311550.148876@server16.cable.com> <395BE3AA.C3911A89@dallas.net> <8jgjrn$ha57$1@ID-21098.news.cis.dfn.de> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:59926 "S.C.Sprong" wrote: > > [various light bulb jokes deleted] > Man: "How many women with PMS does it take to change a light bulb?" Woman: "It takes one hundred and three..." Man: "Why one hundred and three???" Woman: "Because it just does, okay!!!" > > And to keep it folkloric: what are the first geeky computer related > jokes? That idiotic James Barry, who Just Doesn't Get It, writes in > his book 'Technobabble' that CS types have no sense of humour, but I > have never found more extensive collections of jokes, quips, and other > humoria, related to computers or not, than on a computer. > The man you are talking about is Dave Barry, and he does write some very humorous books... There was a very good section in his book _Clawing Your Way to the Top_ that concerned how to attend a meeting... very funny and very true...kind of pre-Dilbert Dilbert. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+