From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:56:49 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 46 Message-ID: <392C5021.6099@azstarnet.com> References: <8fanf1$ih4@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <3919CF26.FC2EDFA3@earthlink.net> <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391C1918.19BF831E@earthlink.net> <8fhgm1$9g7@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391D895C.EFB52F2E@earthlink.net> <8fnong$eql@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8fud4d$5j1@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3923F80C.5E7A6E9A@earthlink.net> <8g3hkr$hbq@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <39294069.F0406D83@earthlink.net> <8ge9p3$sfn@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <6u3dn9t530.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8ggol2$7e4@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <6un1lf22n0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57012 Neil Franklin wrote: > From Byte Sept 1990, Page 414ff: > > The Creation of the IBM PC, by David J Bradley (one of its designers) And what would be the relative titles/positions of Mr Bradley as opposed to Bill Sydnes? I wouldn't bother asking, but I can't find any ''Bradley'' mentioned at all in ''Blue Magic'', subtitled ''The People, Power, and Politics Behind the IBM Personal Computer'' published in 1988. In this book, Sydnes quite clearly says they (the Boca Raton PC design group) went with the 8088 because the IBM minicomputer people would have KILLED the PC project if they had used a 'real' 16 bit chip. In other words internal politics dictated a severely crippled, limited function machine. The Index alone lists at least TWENTY-SEVEN references to material about Sydnes, some running to ten pages. But no Bradley. Who is Bradley? Bear in mind that IBM did not, publicly, expect a smashing success; and internally they only geared up to build maybe 10,000 machines in the first twelve months, causing severe shortages lasting months. Do you really think, in hindsight, and given the fortunes made (and sometimes lost) once the PC architecture became ''industry standard'' there is any conceivable reason for IBM to ever admit having intentionally crippled their machines? Or do you imagine that the approximately HALF of the 200 or 300 competitors who came along wanted to throw money away on a supposedly more expensive 8086-based design? Then why did so many use them? And also, IBM already HAD THE MASKS from Intel and was MAKING THEIR OWN 8086 chips. Do you seriously think IBM got to pay LESS for ANYTHING they bought from Intel than whatever it cost them to make their OWN 8086's? At the time IBM ran the biggest chip foundry in the world. Just a few troubling questions. Bill Tucson, AZ ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <3934491a.4426605@news.cableinet.co.uk> References: <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391C1918.19BF831E@earthlink.net> <8fhgm1$9g7@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391D895C.EFB52F2E@earthlink.net> <8fnong$eql@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8fud4d$5j1@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3923F80C.5E7A6E9A@earthlink.net> <8g3hkr$hbq@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <39294069.F0406D83@earthlink.net> <8ge9p3$sfn@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <6u3dn9t530.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8ggol2$7e4@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <6un1lf22n0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C5021.6099@azstarnet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:26:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.48.192.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net X-Trace: news3.cableinet.net 959531173 213.48.192.55 (Sun, 28 May 2000 17:26:13 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:26:13 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news3.cableinet.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57206 What about the support chips etc? Did IBM make those too? Maybe that would have made the whole thing cheaper, as well as simpler to design. Not that I don't believe you, it sounds credible. At the time, wasn't the PC the only credible computer to buy anyway? CP/M sucked, and wasn't made to support more than 64K. The Apple ][ I think was a bit too "hobbyist". For an off-the-shelf turnkey type first computer for a business, was there an alternative? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:25:32 -0600 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <5g41js88fn3p55s60c58c96rgr5rgpgu0n@4ax.com> References: <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391C1918.19BF831E@earthlink.net> <8fhgm1$9g7@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391D895C.EFB52F2E@earthlink.net> <8fnong$eql@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8fud4d$5j1@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3923F80C.5E7A6E9A@earthlink.net> <8g3hkr$hbq@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <39294069.F0406D83@earthlink.net> <8ge9p3$sfn@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <6u3dn9t530.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8ggol2$7e4@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <6un1lf22n0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C5021.6099@azstarnet.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.139.15 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.139.15 X-Trace: 28 May 2000 13:25:33 -0700, 207.148.139.15 Lines: 52 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.139.15 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57293 On Wed, 24 May 2000 14:56:49 -0700, bill_h wrote: >Neil Franklin wrote: > >> From Byte Sept 1990, Page 414ff: >> >> The Creation of the IBM PC, by David J Bradley (one of its designers) > >And what would be the relative titles/positions of Mr Bradley as >opposed to Bill Sydnes? I wouldn't bother asking, but I can't find >any ''Bradley'' mentioned at all in ''Blue Magic'', subtitled ''The >People, Power, and Politics Behind the IBM Personal Computer'' >published in 1988. In this book, Sydnes quite clearly says they >(the Boca Raton PC design group) went with the 8088 because the >IBM minicomputer people would have KILLED the PC project if they >had used a 'real' 16 bit chip. In other words internal politics >dictated a severely crippled, limited function machine. > >The Index alone lists at least TWENTY-SEVEN references to material >about Sydnes, some running to ten pages. But no Bradley. > >Who is Bradley? From "Assembly Language Programming for the IBM Personal Computer", David J. Bradley (IBM Corporation), Prentice-Hall, 1984: "The author was a member of the team that designed and built the IBM Personal Computer." ... "I would like to thank all of the people in the Personal Computer organization who have helped me during the preparation of his text. Special thanks go to Dave O'Connor and Jud McCarthy, my managers during this period." ... ISTM that Bradley may have been a BIOS, device driver or hardware level programmer at IBM: one of the grunts who did the actual work, rather than a pinhead who played politics and had a big mouth. He seems to be very happy describing all the hardware and software details of interfacing to every device, and discussing the details of the POST and BIOS routines. [snip] >Bill >Tucson, AZ Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Date: 28 May 2000 21:07:10 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8gs1pu$c8t$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <391C1918.19BF831E@earthlink.net> <8fhgm1$9g7@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391D895C.EFB52F2E@earthlink.net> <8fnong$eql@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8fud4d$5j1@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3923F80C.5E7A6E9A@earthlink.net> <8g3hkr$hbq@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <39294069.F0406D83@earthlink.net> <8ge9p3$sfn@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <6u3dn9t530.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8ggol2$7e4@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <6un1lf22n0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C5021.6099@azstarnet.com> <5g41js88fn3p55s60c58c96rgr5rgpgu0n@4ax.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 959548030 12573 134.117.136.30 (28 May 2000 21:07:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 2000 21:07:10 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57283 Brian Inglis (Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca) writes: > > From "Assembly Language Programming for the IBM Personal > Computer", David J. Bradley (IBM Corporation), Prentice-Hall, > 1984: > > "The author was a member of the team that designed and built the > IBM Personal Computer." I just blew an eighths inch of dust off the spine of that book, to verify the post. It's in damn near pristine condition now. Hope he did blow his royalty on the copy I bought on 0.03 of a beer! ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:23:56 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3931C6AC.7408@azstarnet.com> References: <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391C1918.19BF831E@earthlink.net> <8fhgm1$9g7@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391D895C.EFB52F2E@earthlink.net> <8fnong$eql@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8fud4d$5j1@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3923F80C.5E7A6E9A@earthlink.net> <8g3hkr$hbq@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <39294069.F0406D83@earthlink.net> <8ge9p3$sfn@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <6u3dn9t530.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8ggol2$7e4@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <6un1lf22n0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C5021.6099@azstarnet.com> <5g41js88fn3p55s60c58c96rgr5rgpgu0n@4ax.com> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone-transit.snfc21.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57347 Brian Inglis wrote: > From "Assembly Language Programming for the IBM Personal > Computer", David J. Bradley (IBM Corporation), Prentice-Hall, > 1984: > > "The author was a member of the team that designed and built the > IBM Personal Computer." > > ... "I would like to thank all of the people in the Personal > Computer organization who have helped me during the preparation > of his text. Special thanks go to Dave O'Connor and Jud McCarthy, > my managers during this period." ... > > ISTM that Bradley may have been a BIOS, device driver or hardware > level programmer at IBM: one of the grunts who did the actual > work, rather than a pinhead who played politics and had a big > mouth. He seems to be very happy describing all the hardware and > software details of interfacing to every device, and discussing > the details of the POST and BIOS routines. Okay, don't see any mention of McCarthy, but O'Conner took over running the JUNIOR operation after Sydnes screwed it up, about summer, 1983. So it's possible if Bradley was working on his book while working on the JUNIOR, keeping costs to a minimum MAY have been a big deal, and very much on his mind at the time. There are a number of really silly mistakes in ''Blue Magic'', but the Sydnes business about producing a machine that would get past CMC approval was in quotation marks. So I would say it probably carries more weight than an accedote in a book about programming. Among the mistakes? the PC had a 65 VOLT power supply? Ouch! EVERYBODY was using the 8088, which came out BEFORE the 8086? Anyway, thanks for clarifying. Bill Tucson, AZ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Date: 31 May 2000 20:40:12 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6uya4qimwj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391C1918.19BF831E@earthlink.net> <8fhgm1$9g7@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <391D895C.EFB52F2E@earthlink.net> <8fnong$eql@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <8fud4d$5j1@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <3923F80C.5E7A6E9A@earthlink.net> <8g3hkr$hbq@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <39294069.F0406D83@earthlink.net> <8ge9p3$sfn@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <6u3dn9t530.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8ggol2$7e4@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <6un1lf22n0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <392C5021.6099@azstarnet.com> <5g41js88fn3p55s60c58c96rgr5rgpgu0n@4ax.com> <3931C6AC.7408@azstarnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959798412 403 10.0.3.2 (31 May 2000 18:40:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2000 18:40:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57382 bill_h writes: > Among the mistakes? the PC had a 65 VOLT power supply? Ouch! Erm. I assume you wanted to say 65 WATT. And yes, totally underpowered. They like any other mains powered electric equipment had 95-240 Volt, depending on what voltage the country they went to uses. Else *BANG*. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars References: <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <5g41js88fn3p55s60c58c96rgr5rgpgu0n@4ax.com> <3931C6AC.7408@azstarnet.com> <6uya4qimwj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: None X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) Lines: 24 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:10:35 EDT Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:10:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57389 In article <6uya4qimwj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >bill_h writes: > >> Among the mistakes? the PC had a 65 VOLT power supply? Ouch! > >Erm. I assume you wanted to say 65 WATT. And yes, totally underpowered. Although bill_h's rants are often hard to understand due to idiosyncratic punctuation and capitalization, I think he was trying to explain that the book claimed the PC's power supply had 65-volt output, and that that constituted a mistake in the book. >They like any other mains powered electric equipment had 95-240 Volt, >depending on what voltage the country they went to uses. Else *BANG*. FWIW, power supplies have output voltages as well; it's entirely reasonable to build a 65-volt-output power supply that runs from mains power. The PC didn't; its PS supplied +5V, +12V, and -12V. -- Kragen Sitaker The Internet stock bubble didn't burst on 1999-11-08. Hurrah! The power didn't go out on 2000-01-01 either. :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: IBM/ibm Wars Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 02:38:00 -0400 References: <8fekci$m33@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <5g41js88fn3p55s60c58c96rgr5rgpgu0n@4ax.com> <3931C6AC.7408@azstarnet.com> <6uya4qimwj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-167.his.com X-Trace: 2 Jun 2000 02:38:00 -0400, pm9-167.his.com Lines: 13 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!192.168.1.3!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:57443 In article , kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote: > FWIW, power supplies have output voltages as well; it's entirely > reasonable to build a 65-volt-output power supply that runs from mains > power. The PC didn't; its PS supplied +5V, +12V, and -12V. Can you confirm that it had a "world" power supply, able to take most common line voltages, from the start? I thought it began with country-specific versions, and only came along with the universal supply about three years after the first ones were produced.