From: the.cat.in.the.hat@usa.net Subject: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Lotus Notes Release 5.0 (Intl) 30 March 1999 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Notes Client on Cris Koch(Release 5.0 (Intl)|30 March 1999) at 17/04/2000 08:41:28 AM, Serialize complete at 17/04/2000 08:41:28 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: syd-0307-141.ports.iprimus.net.au Message-ID: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Lines: 2 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:41:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.134.64.67 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:41:16 EST Organization: Another Optus Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news0.optus.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54275 Can anyone tell me what it was about, and if there are any free or cheap alternatives? (like Linux or something.) ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 16 Apr 2000 23:07:22 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <8ddh3a$pul$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 955926446 nnrp-08:23276 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Apr 2000 23:07:22 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54285 In article <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au>, the.cat.in.the.hat@usa.net writes: > Can anyone tell me what it was about, and if there are any free or cheap > alternatives? (like Linux or something.) A handy way of virtualising your hardware (did it so well it could IPL [boot] itself), which is useful on a multi-million quid mainframe as it enables multiple instances of operating systems to run, enabling the development shop to faff about with the system without affecting the production bods, as well as running that app that'll only work on VSE to still be accessible to what's intended to be an MVS environment. It's also a full-featured OS in its own right, and quite an interesting one at that. However, if you want to run it you'll need an IBM S/370 or above mainframe (although efforts to get it running on the Hercules mainframe emulator [which runs on Linux based PCs] are going on) Similar functionality is available for PCs using something called VMware; it's a commercial product but private/hobbyist licences are quite cheap. I find it quite useful for the odd instances I have to run NT when I don't want to reboot Linux, and it's also handy for a nasty OS development project I'm faffing about with, which I guess is in the spirit of the original VM. Chris. ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 17 Apr 2000 00:34:47 GMT Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: eskimo.com X-Trace: eskinews.eskimo.com 955931687 10670 204.122.16.13 (17 Apr 2000 00:34:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eskimo.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2000 00:34:47 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.eskimo.com!eskimo.com!dpeschel Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54312 In article <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au>, the.cat.in.the.hat@usa.net wrote: >Can anyone tell me what it was about, and if there are any free or cheap >alternatives? (like Linux or something.) In spite of your subject, VM does in fact stand for Virtual Machine. VM (the concept) means that you are using a computer with memory, peripherals, etc., but you can't tell whether it's the real hardware or you're sharing the real hardware with other programs. (I think there may be certain well-defined ways in which virtual machines can communicate.) VM (the software) is a framework allowing you to run a series of OSs on the same computer. It's not an OS itself (though it does have a control program, CP, that allows you to send commands to it). Instead, it manages virtual machines which the OSs run on. You can also run another copy of VM on one of the virtual machines! The problem is that the software works closely with the hardware (the 370 and 390 lines of computers, successors to the System/360 line of the 1960s). I don't know if there are any free emulators out there. In any case you would have to get an emulator and the VM software and an OS to run under VM and software for the OS. Your other alternative is to find some of the small PC/mainframe combinations that IBM produced several years ago. They are boards that go in an IBM PC and turn it into a very small 370 or 390 system. Unfortunately they tend to be unusable compared to the real hardware, according to everything I've heard. Note, I think IBM made other boards that go into the PC that turn it into a special IBM *terminal*. Those boards won't help you much unless you have something to connect your terminal to. About OSs -- There are several. - Some are close relatives of the original System/360 OSs and are meant for batch usage (i.e., you put in your stack of punch cards and wait). - MVS (Multiple Virtual Storage) is a more distant and modern relative of the System/360 OSs. It is a batch OS but you can also get TSO (Time-Sharing Option) which is an interactive front end. I think there is actually more than one version of MVS. - CMS (Conversational Montior System, originally Cambridge Monitor System) is a fully interactive OS that was created from scratch in the late '70s. It uses terminals (but note that IBM created its own terminals which tend not to use ASCII). - IBM has created some sort of UNIX layer for its 390 machines. I don't know the relationship between this layer and any of the other OSs and VM. The older OSs will work without VM (they were created before VM was). CMS basically requires VM. I think MVS will run without VM but I'm not sure. You might wonder, "What can I learn from this stuff? What is it good at?" In my opinion, the virtual-machine concept is very cool, and the software has some very clever ideas in it too. Actually using the software and hardware is another story. It's very complicated and deeply tied to the designs of the past. The interaction is not as direct as Linux (for example, the special IBM terminals I mentioned mostly talk to the computer a screen at a time, not a character at a time). Some other people on this newsgroup would disagree with me. They stress the speed and reliability of the hardware and software. You'll have to find an actual mainframe to see if that's true. -- Derek ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 58 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:35:55 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-q06FLhnOawLXMpBmhz7XMR7Xa9vo6CHyji+BqDqAIocnhPc3IPCzzIBN82XzB38EA8VZ5pDhBY0vcbK!SLto5FMO6UnB7rxqLRbRPw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:35:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54269 On 17 Apr 2000 00:34:47 GMT, Derek Peschel wrote: >The problem is that the software works closely with the hardware (the 370 >and 390 lines of computers, successors to the System/360 line of the 1960s). >I don't know if there are any free emulators out there. In any case you >would have to get an emulator and the VM software and an OS to run under VM >and software for the OS. There is indeed an emulator for both S/370 and S/390, named Hercules. You can find it at http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm . We haven't gotten it to run VM yet, though there's a more or less active effort under way - if we can lay hands on one of the public domain versions, that is (VM/370 r6 was the last PD version). We have gotten OS/360 MVT to run reasonably well under it, though, and MVS isn't too far behind, hopefully. >Your other alternative is to find some of the small PC/mainframe >combinations that IBM produced several years ago. They are boards that go >in an IBM PC and turn it into a very small 370 or 390 system. Unfortunately >they tend to be unusable compared to the real hardware, according to >everything I've heard. Depends on the vintage. The original XT/370 and AT/370 boards were fairly crippled, but the later P/370 and P/390 systems were supposed to be pretty good; the latest P/390s will run anything IBM makes. Of course, the board itself runs for US$5000 or so on the used market, and then there's the software licensing on top of that... > - MVS (Multiple Virtual Storage) is a more distant and modern > relative of the System/360 OSs. It is a batch OS but you can also > get TSO (Time-Sharing Option) which is an interactive front end. > I think there is actually more than one version of MVS. Indeed. There are four major variants of MVS: MVS 3.8 and earlier were public domain, and pretty basic; MVS/SP version 1 (also referred to as MVS/370, confusingly enough) was a more advanced program product (licensed) OS for the 370 architecture, which could take advantage of things like dual address spaces; MVS/XA (technically, MVS/SP v2) exploited the 31-bit address space extensions and restructured I/O subsystem of the 370/Extended Architecture; and MVS/ESA (MVS/SP v3 and higher) and OS/390, which added multiple data address space support to MVS/XA, as well as support for the more modern S/390 hardware. Of these, unless you're rolling in money, you're interested in MVS 3.8. (Just for reference, a copy of OS/390 to run on that $5000 P/390 will cost you nearly $40K.) > - CMS (Conversational Montior System, originally Cambridge Monitor > System) is a fully interactive OS that was created from scratch > in the late '70s. It uses terminals (but note that IBM created > its own terminals which tend not to use ASCII). Did CMS support the ASCII terminals you could hook up to a 37x5? Most folks used 3270 block-mode terminals with it, at least in the 80s and 90s. >The older OSs will work without VM (they were created before VM was). CMS >basically requires VM. I think MVS will run without VM but I'm not sure. Yes, MVS will run standalone; in fact, until MVS/SP 1.3 and VM/SP, they'd run together, but not well: they'd fight over who should do paging. ###### From: "Gerard S." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Lines: 65 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:53:16 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.149.17.230 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 955943222 208.149.17.230 (Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:47:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:47:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54302 |Derek Peschel wrote in message ... |>Can anyone tell me what it was about, and if there are any free or cheap |>alternatives? (like Linux or something.) | |In spite of your subject, VM does in fact stand for Virtual Machine. | |VM (the concept) means that you are using a computer with memory, |peripherals, etc., but you can't tell whether it's the real hardware or |you're sharing the real hardware with other programs. (I think there may be |certain well-defined ways in which virtual machines can communicate.) Yes, VM in theory, will create an invironment in which you should be able to do anything in (or on) a virtual machine as you would on a real machine, provided you have access to (say) the I/O gear that you would normally have access to. That't what allows you to run MVS and other operating systems under VM. If there was anything that could break a supervising operating system, it would be MVS or another copy of VM (running under VM). You can even run VM under VM under VM under VM ... The story goes that it was done seven layers deep by a development lab somewhere. VM allows you to really test software with ease, you can trace individual instructions, display the register, examine real/virtual storage, etc. Of course, with PER, that is a lot easier now. |VM (the software) is a framework allowing you to run a series of OSs on the |same computer. It's not an OS itself (though it does have a control |program, CP, that allows you to send commands to it). Instead, it manages |virtual machines which the OSs run on. You can also run another copy of VM |on one of the virtual machines! VM (the software) IS an OS itself. Of course, you may define OS to have this and to have that, but in the truest sense, it still is an operating system. It has a spooling and paging system, accounting, security (userids, passwords, etc), a directory that among other things, controls who/what you are, authority classes (to issue what level of commands), what I/O devices you have access and/or control over, amount of real storage, machine settings (or options, if you prefer), what I/O devices to simulate/emulate, etc. VM also has an I/O system, communications (local and remote), timing processes, task scheduling (multi-tasking support), support for AP and MP(s) configurations (multiple CPU enginies), emulation of hardware that may not be present, simulation or emulation of certain CPU instructions, provides inter/intra user communication, a command language, yada, yada, yada. I'm sure I left out way to much to give VM the credit it deserves. ---[snip-snip-snip]--- | - CMS (Conversational Montior System, originally Cambridge Monitor | System) is a fully interactive OS that was created from scratch | in the late '70s. It uses terminals (but note that IBM created | its own terminals which tend not to use ASCII). VM (and CMS) was around since the late 1960s, I was exposed to it in 1968, but it wasn't much more than a toddler then, maybe one or two years old (as a guess). Of course, it was called CP/67 back then (before the name changed to VM/370). The first terminals (that I remember) used where 1050s and 1052s (as I recall, the granddaddies of the 3215), and VM also supported TTY's (ASCII). A version also supported 2260s, but I don't know if that was allowed to go to the users. When 3270s became available in the market, VM was there using them. Gerard S. ###### From: jwstephens@home.nospam.com (Jim Stephens) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Message-ID: <38faa1d8.17519935@news> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:33:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.16.179.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.alsv1.occa.home.com 955949628 24.16.179.69 (Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:33:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:33:48 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.alsv1.occa.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54325 On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:35:55 GMT, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >Did CMS support the ASCII terminals you could hook up to a 37x5? Most folks >used 3270 block-mode terminals with it, at least in the 80s and 90s. I don't think IBM supported anything ascii but terminals emulating the block mode 3270's, witness the 7171. One could talk ascii to them after a fashion though, but it was painful. > >>The older OSs will work without VM (they were created before VM was). CMS >>basically requires VM. I think MVS will run without VM but I'm not sure. > >Yes, MVS will run standalone; in fact, until MVS/SP 1.3 and VM/SP, they'd >run together, but not well: they'd fight over who should do paging. most mvs shops have evicted vm in favor or lpars. what they don't know (hardware vm is still vm) won't hurt them. Jim ###### From: "Lee Courtney" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:46:35 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54301 wrote in message news:38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au... > Can anyone tell me what it was about, and if there are any free or cheap > alternatives? (like Linux or something.) VMWare (www.vmware.com) is marketing a VM interface which (it appears) allows multiple instances of Windows and LINUX OS's to run simultaneously on the same Intel architecture. Haven't used the software, but appears to be a (IBM) VM like concept. From looking at their web page they have a student/hobbyist version. I have no connection with the company and have not used the software, but sounds like they have an interesting piece of technology. Interested in any feedback others may have had. Of course we all know a product does not a business make, and I'm not sure if this isn't another academic 'research project' disguised as a business that will make a long-term impact on operating systems and the Win/Linux marketplace. Time (and the NASDAQ slide) will tell! Lee Courtney President Monterey Software Group Inc. 1350 Pear Avenue, Suite J Mountain View, California 94043-1302 (650) 964-7052 voice, (650) 964-6735 fax www.editcorp.com/Businesses/MontereySoftware ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 17 Apr 2000 15:08:31 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 104 Message-ID: <8df9df$pa0$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!an02.austin.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54310 In , dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: >In article <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au>, the.cat.in.the.hat@usa.net wrote: >>Can anyone tell me what it was about, and if there are any free or cheap >>alternatives? (like Linux or something.) > >In spite of your subject, VM does in fact stand for Virtual Machine. > >VM (the concept) means that you are using a computer with memory, >peripherals, etc., but you can't tell whether it's the real hardware or >you're sharing the real hardware with other programs. (I think there may be >certain well-defined ways in which virtual machines can communicate.) > >VM (the software) is a framework allowing you to run a series of OSs on the >same computer. It's not an OS itself (though it does have a control >program, CP, that allows you to send commands to it). Instead, it manages >virtual machines which the OSs run on. You can also run another copy of VM >on one of the virtual machines! > >The problem is that the software works closely with the hardware (the 370 >and 390 lines of computers, successors to the System/360 line of the 1960s). >I don't know if there are any free emulators out there. In any case you >would have to get an emulator and the VM software and an OS to run under VM >and software for the OS. > >Your other alternative is to find some of the small PC/mainframe >combinations that IBM produced several years ago. They are boards that go >in an IBM PC and turn it into a very small 370 or 390 system. Unfortunately >they tend to be unusable compared to the real hardware, according to >everything I've heard. Note, I think IBM made other boards that go into >the PC that turn it into a special IBM *terminal*. Those boards won't help >you much unless you have something to connect your terminal to. > >About OSs -- There are several. > > - Some are close relatives of the original System/360 OSs > and are meant for batch usage (i.e., you put in your stack > of punch cards and wait). > > - MVS (Multiple Virtual Storage) is a more distant and modern > relative of the System/360 OSs. It is a batch OS but you can also > get TSO (Time-Sharing Option) which is an interactive front end. > I think there is actually more than one version of MVS. > > - CMS (Conversational Montior System, originally Cambridge Monitor > System) is a fully interactive OS that was created from scratch > in the late '70s. It uses terminals (but note that IBM created > its own terminals which tend not to use ASCII). > > - IBM has created some sort of UNIX layer for its 390 machines. > I don't know the relationship between this layer and any of > the other OSs and VM. > >The older OSs will work without VM (they were created before VM was). CMS >basically requires VM. I think MVS will run without VM but I'm not sure. > >You might wonder, "What can I learn from this stuff? What is it good at?" >In my opinion, the virtual-machine concept is very cool, and the software has >some very clever ideas in it too. Actually using the software and hardware >is another story. It's very complicated and deeply tied to the designs of >the past. The interaction is not as direct as Linux (for example, the >special IBM terminals I mentioned mostly talk to the computer a screen at a >time, not a character at a time). > >Some other people on this newsgroup would disagree with me. They stress the >speed and reliability of the hardware and software. You'll have to find an >actual mainframe to see if that's true. > >-- Derek I'll have to disagree with the statement that the boards that go into a PC and turn it into a very small 370 or 390 system are unusable. I've used one for quite a number of years, and I find it VERY useful. I'm running with a P/370 card in my machine, and, while it isn't nearly as powerful as one of the water-cooled mainframes, it's plenty powerful enough to be useful (I've actually run applications on it faster than the response I've gotten from the mainframe.). The processor runs at (very roughly, and totally unofficial) 4 MIPS, which is about the same speed that a 4381 processor runs at. The I/O channel speed is a little worse, but, given that these are typically used by single users, I've found performance to be very acceptable. Of course, the P/370 is obselete, and has been for a number of years. It has been replaced by the P/390, which is even more powerful, and implements the full S/390 architecture (while the P/370 only implemented the S/370 architecture). The 7437 box, which attached to a PS/2, was definitely a lot slower than a P/370, but was still fast enough to be useful. I seem to remember that it performed at about 750 KIPS, although it did have the full 16M of real storage. I will agree, though, that the XT/370 and AT/370 card sets were pretty useless (with the only possible exception being in an academic setting). These cards only performed at about 50 KIPS, and, even worse, did not implement the full S/370 architecture. Plus, with only 512K of real memory (and a 4M address space limit), performance was rather awful for real-world sized programs (The P/370 implements the full 16M of real storage, while the P/390 implements up to 256M of real storage, I think.). Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNLT Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:02:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.29.111 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 955987351 209.63.29.111 (Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:02:31 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:02:31 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54309 "Gerard S." writes: > VM/370). The first terminals (that I remember) used where 1050s and 1052s > (as I recall, the granddaddies of the 3215), and VM also supported TTY's > (ASCII). A version also supported 2260s, but I don't know if that was > allowed to go to the users. When 3270s became available in the market, > VM was there using them. I did the TTY support for CP/67 while an undergraduate ..there is a tale about a bug in the code ... misc. ref http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#44 and as indicated also worked on a project that took some interdata hardware (early precursor to box used for one of the non-DEC ports of UNIX) and simulated an ibm mainframe controller (supposedly credited with originating the ibm plug-compatible market). They were line/print (tty33 & 35) ascii terminals at 110buad ... but not too long afterwards 300 baud line terminals with heat sensitive paper & then screens (like adm3a) that simulated line terminals ... but you could play games with cursor re-positioning -- -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com, finger for pgp key http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 17 Apr 2000 16:43:04 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 955990797 nnrp-06:29642 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2000 16:43:04 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54290 In article , "Lee Courtney" writes: > VMWare (www.vmware.com) is marketing a VM interface which (it appears) > allows multiple instances of Windows and LINUX OS's to run simultaneously on > the same Intel architecture. Haven't used the software, but appears to be a > (IBM) VM like concept. It is a bit like that; I'd personally like something a bit less tied to X-windows, but that's really just splitting hairs considering what it does. > From looking at their web page they have a student/hobbyist version. I have > no connection with the company and have not used the software, but sounds > like they have an interesting piece of technology. Interested in any > feedback others may have had. I have the hobbyist licence which I use for running multiple instances of Linux on the same box (handy for checking out new distributions without the risk of twatting my disc partitions or the hassle or rebooting the host system), doing odd bits of development using the IA32 "bare iron" as well as successfully running other systems like Minix, Solaris etc. My girlfriend even uses it to run NT so she can do things with Office (I'm still persuading her to use StarOffice) although the performance can be a bit slow when running the display on the end of a 10Mbit connection! (I suppose I should upgrade it to a 100Mbit hub at some point) Except for that bit of silliness, the performance of guest operating systems seems to be pretty good, although (unsurprisingly) it can eat up large chunks of your core, so you'll also need to invest in more RAM or put up with lots of swapping if you're running a couple of "serious" VMs. > Of course we all know a product does not a business make, and I'm not sure > if this isn't another academic 'research project' disguised as a business > that will make a long-term impact on operating systems and the Win/Linux > marketplace. Time (and the NASDAQ slide) will tell! It seems to be doing well; I have nothing to do with VMware inc. but I'd like to see them survive as this is a pretty useful and unique (at the moment) product that they have... Chris. ###### From: "Gerard S." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:06:15 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.149.16.222 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 955994398 208.149.16.222 (Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:59:58 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:59:58 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54291 |Jim Stephens wrote in message: |On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:35:55 GMT, (Jay Maynard) wrote: |>>The older OSs will work without VM (they were created before VM was). CMS |>>basically requires VM. I think MVS will run without VM but I'm not sure. |>Yes, MVS will run standalone; in fact, until MVS/SP 1.3 and VM/SP, they'd |> run together, but not well: they'd fight over who should do paging. |most mvs shops have evicted vm in favor or lpars. what they don't |know (hardware vm is still vm) won't hurt them. |Jim ____________________________________________________________ I always liked to tease the MVS bigots about LPAR just being a covered up VM; of course, they didn't believe me. You could IPL the system, and go into the appropiate console frame and see the VM IPLing (I forgot which flavor of VM is was, maybe a VM/SP modified to handle XA ?). Later of course, ESA support was added along with other stuff. Gerard S. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNLT Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:46:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.29.110 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 956000794 209.63.29.110 (Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:46:34 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:46:34 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54314 "Gerard S." writes: > I always liked to tease the MVS bigots about LPAR just being a covered up > VM; of course, they didn't believe me. You could IPL the system, and go into > the appropiate console frame and see the VM IPLing (I forgot which flavor > of VM is was, maybe a VM/SP modified to handle XA ?). Later of course, > ESA support was added along with other stuff. > > Gerard S. 3090 for the console & service processor had a pair of 4361s running a highly modified version of VM Release 6 (not even SP, hpo, etc) & all the service processor panels were driven from CMS IOS3270. I'm sure it has had numerous modifications & enhancements since then. The basic LPAR is effectively enhanced version of the origianl VM microcode assist or, if you will, the virtual machine SIE infrastructure with some additional configuration wrappers built around it thru service processor support. -- -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com, finger for pgp key http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:03:09 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-pjNm/DDKS3kFMOD52uxNVlGfJd1/SUtzbiCehey5sl2I7qLVg7Km1G45paz37r79wFvZRPlWFXZ0F0c!lisNwJ6UQnNHgxu82tNZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:03:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54266 On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:46:34 GMT, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >I'm sure it has had numerous modifications & enhancements since >then. The basic LPAR is effectively enhanced version of the origianl >VM microcode assist or, if you will, the virtual machine SIE >infrastructure with some additional configuration wrappers built >around it thru service processor support. Okkay, so what does SIE do, exactly? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 00 10:36:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: i2PCu6nyFAoFKLnCsl0jTMDBul2JFbEMn28zX+TzEGk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 13:18:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-248-16 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54342 In article <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >I have the hobbyist licence which I use for running multiple instances >of Linux on the same box (handy for checking out new distributions >without the risk of twatting my disc partitions Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time I've had my disk partitions twatted. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNLT Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:41:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.29.113 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 956014867 209.63.29.113 (Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:41:07 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:41:07 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.ruhrgebiet.individual.net!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!feeder.qis.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed.newsreader.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54355 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > Okkay, so what does SIE do, exactly? on 360 & 370 it was possible to swap from supervisor state & problem state and address space mode all in a single instruction (LPSW). For XA ... that was no longer possible ... i.e. the bare bones XA architecture was much more MVS oriented where the supervisor (aka kernel) code was resident in all address spaces ... and didn't switched back & forth between kernel mode and application mode w/o having to also switch address space. The CP/VM kernel code had its own address space and needed to be able to simultaneous switch between priviledge & non-priviledge mode while at the same time switching between the kernel address space and the application address space. SIE was introduced in XA architecture to support CP operation ... & while they where at it they threw in various VM performance assists i.e. effectively microcode for instructions that would follow the rules for how an instruction operated in virtual machine mode ... as opposed to how it might operate natively. For simulation of a virtual machine ... CP might follow slightly different rules when simulating a priviledge instruction ... effectively those virtual machine "rules" for instruction execution was dropped into the microcode of the machine. For those things ... it was no longer necessary for CP to simulate a priviledge instruction according to virtual machine rules ... many of the instructions ... if they were in "SIE" mode ... would automatically perform the instruction according to virtual machine rules. LPARS ... are logical partitions ... a physical processing complex can be partition into multiple "logical" (or virtual) machines. In some sense, a logical partition alwas operates in "SIE" mode ... following the rules for instruuction execution laid down for it. Rather than actually needing VM operating system to manage the machine ... the "microcode" (aka service processor) sets up the configuration operations governing LPAR operation. -- -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com, finger for pgp key http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 18 Apr 2000 12:40:51 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8dhl4j$fvn$1@top.mitre.org> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 956061651 16375 128.29.251.13 (18 Apr 2000 12:40:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 12:40:51 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54337 "Gerard S." writes: >I always liked to tease the MVS bigots about LPAR just being a covered up >VM; of course, they didn't believe me. You could IPL the system, and go into >the appropiate console frame and see the VM IPLing (I forgot which flavor >of VM is was, maybe a VM/SP modified to handle XA ?). Later of course, >ESA support was added along with other stuff. Of course, VM users were *never* bigots about their operating system: how can you be called a bigot if you're only reflecting the Ultimate Truth about the computer? ...which somehow leads to the following question: Especially in the 1970s and 1980s, many programmers active in mainframe support obtained vanity license plates for their vehicles that reflected their favorite vendor, hardware, or operating system. How many of these license plates are still in service? (I can report that there is at least one: my motorcycle still shows Virginia license VM-HPO even though many years ago I closed the computer center where I used it.) At one time there were enough in the Washington DC area that they could almost be called "common" although that's probably a little too strong a word for their real numbers. There was, however an interesting problem at one of the local "go-away-we-don't-exist" intelligence agencies where two vehicles had the same VM-related license plate: one from Virginia and one from Maryland. Joe Morris ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:57:17 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-VPR3I0I9uZyQpID4D0fl5+alVYvDo2jabYgPxdz5oSNeY+DtWmbR6/u4fzlHt4kwd6E1XlYxziDBfc7!zjrpSnnqYgqJ1cy8NUdO1Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:57:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54334 On Tue, 18 Apr 00 10:36:56 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, > cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>I have the hobbyist licence which I use for running multiple instances >>of Linux on the same box (handy for checking out new distributions >>without the risk of twatting my disc partitions >Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time >I've had my disk partitions twatted. Two people separated by a common language... I suspect he means that to express some variation of "destroyed". Uhm, Chris, in the US, "twat" is obscene slang for the female genitalia... ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:00:43 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-OHiPODwTeAZV9S9XfDNdsflJOnfShLvAhEVESuwAnaM+GXiLPnNXL/uBBrFJIdVb9cJWerx931aN2/D!1PMIAN+Z8N6kP++sLHkw1g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:00:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54332 On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:41:07 GMT, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >on 360 & 370 it was possible to swap from supervisor state & problem >state and address space mode all in a single instruction (LPSW). How can you switch address spaces in S/370 mode without either dual address space support or reloading CR1? Turn DAT off entirely? (For that matter, DAS didn't really help there because of the unpredictability of where you loaded instructions from in secondary-space mode.) (In case you can't tell, I'm an MVS geek, though that may have to change soon if I wind up with a 9370...) >The CP/VM kernel code had its own address space and needed to be able >to simultaneous switch between priviledge & non-priviledge mode while >at the same time switching between the kernel address space and the >application address space. I didn't know this, but it makes sense...else you'd never be able to give a guest the full 16 MB of "real" storage. >For those things ... it was no longer necessary for CP to simulate a >priviledge instruction according to virtual machine rules ... many of >the instructions ... if they were in "SIE" mode ... would automatically >perform the instruction according to virtual machine rules. Effectively, SIE flipped a microcode switch that changed how some instructions operated, then. Makes it kinda hard to emulate. BTW, was there an Exit Interpretive Mode (or whatever) instruction that made the machine follow the POO again? How'd the VM nucleus get the POO behavior for those same instructions? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 00 09:37:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8dk877$2aq$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <8diefh$gaq$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: Es2toPv6k+mK3je5Z8ZUkhV1ccMTP6IjzqCQnNz4uIs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Apr 2000 12:18:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-231-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54384 In article <8diefh$gaq$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time >> I've had my disk partitions twatted. > >In this context, breaking or damaging, rather than some bizarrelly >obscene contortion... Then you know what I was trying to picture in my head when I read your original blurb. I've seen many ways to destroy disks, but .... /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 18 Apr 2000 19:52:10 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <8dieda$gaq$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 956087673 nnrp-07:27706 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 19:52:10 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54402 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >>Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time >>I've had my disk partitions twatted. > > Two people separated by a common language... > > I suspect he means that to express some variation of "destroyed". > > Uhm, Chris, in the US, "twat" is obscene slang for the female genitalia... Erm, quite. Over here it depends somewhat on context; as a direct referral either to genitalia or as an insult (specifically to men, oddly enough) it has that meaning, but when used to specify an action it generally means to hit, break or (to confuse matters further) "knacker." The latter was popularised by the TV SF comedy series Red Dwarf but was already in reasonably common usage AFAIK. Chris. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 18 Apr 2000 19:53:21 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <8diefh$gaq$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 956087674 nnrp-07:27706 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 19:53:21 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54403 In article <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time > I've had my disk partitions twatted. In this context, breaking or damaging, rather than some bizarrelly obscene contortion... Chris. ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 18 Apr 2000 21:51:33 GMT Organization: None.. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8dild5$fbu$4@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-99-48-20.btinternet.com User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.13 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54422 Jay Maynard wrote: >On Tue, 18 Apr 00 10:36:56 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>In article <8dfeuo$tcr$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, >> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>I have the hobbyist licence which I use for running multiple instances >>>of Linux on the same box (handy for checking out new distributions >>>without the risk of twatting my disc partitions >>Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time >>I've had my disk partitions twatted. >Two people separated by a common language... >I suspect he means that to express some variation of "destroyed". >Uhm, Chris, in the US, "twat" is obscene slang for the female genitalia... UK too... -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your second shot perfect. -- Robert A Heinlein. ###### Message-ID: <38FE5B45.6A999870@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> <8dhl4j$fvn$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:20:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.120.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 956150429 63.15.120.32 (Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:20:29 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:20:29 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54382 Joe Morris wrote: > Especially in the 1970s and 1980s, many programmers active in mainframe > support obtained vanity license plates for their vehicles that reflected > their favorite vendor, hardware, or operating system. How many of these > license plates are still in service? It wasn't just mainframe programmers. How about MIKBUG for a plate (Motorola 6800 debug ROM) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 19 Apr 2000 13:56:47 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8dkduv$1iqq$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> <8dhl4j$fvn$1@top.mitre.org> <38FE5B45.6A999870@earthlink.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54424 In <38FE5B45.6A999870@earthlink.net>, jchausler writes: > > >Joe Morris wrote: > >> Especially in the 1970s and 1980s, many programmers active in mainframe >> support obtained vanity license plates for their vehicles that reflected >> their favorite vendor, hardware, or operating system. How many of these >> license plates are still in service? > >It wasn't just mainframe programmers. How about MIKBUG for a >plate (Motorola 6800 debug ROM) > >Chris >AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE >$$ > I think I remember one here (Kentucky) that said "ILUVVM" (I LUV VM). And, I think I've seen some of those bumper stickers that state "I VM". Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 19 Apr 2000 14:07:04 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8dkei8$1iqq$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dk877$2aq$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54423 In <8dk877$2aq$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <8diefh$gaq$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, > cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>In article <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>> Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time >>> I've had my disk partitions twatted. >> >>In this context, breaking or damaging, rather than some bizarrelly >>obscene contortion... > > Then you know what I was trying to picture in my >head when I read your original blurb. I've seen many >ways to destroy disks, but .... > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Isn't that what happens to a hard disk when someone has been downloading too many of images from some of *those* sites? :*) Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 122 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:58:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.28.138 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 956163521 209.63.28.138 (Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:58:41 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:58:41 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54414 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > Okkay, so what does SIE do, exactly? load program status word was used in 360 & 370 to switch between kernel mode and virtual machine mode. CP kernel ran in "real mode" (no address translation) and supervisor mode (all instructions were executable). The address space control register pointed to the virtual address space tables and CP would use the "load real address" instruction to do virtual->real address translation before operating on virtual machine/address storage. The target of a LPSW instruction was an 8byte field that contained the new instruction address, the supervisor/problem mode bit, and the real/virtual address (DAT, or dynamic address translation) mode bit. To start execution of a virtual machine, a LPSW instruction was executed that had a target of a virtual instruction address in the virtual address space, the supervisor/problem mode bit set to problem mode, and the DAT mode bit turned on. All hardware interrups occured by loading an 8byte PSW field from fixed location in real storage and storing the current PSW (current instruction address & state information) in a seperate real storage location . The kernel code had initialized the "new PSW" fields to a real instruction address in the kernel, supervisor/problem mode bit set to supervisor and the DAT mode bit turned off. Any attempt to execute a "supervisor" instruction while in problem mode would result in storing the current 8byte PSW in the "OLD PSW field" in fixed real storage along with the reason for the interrupt and loading a new PSW from fixed real storage. CP's kernel was mapped to real storage and not included in the virtual address mapping of any virtual machine. It was possible for CP to switch to virtual machine mode by first loading the appropriate address space table in the address space control register and then executing a LPSW that switched: 1) instruction address, 2) problem mode, and 3) address translation mode. Any interrupt (supervisor, program, exception, page fault, I/O, machine, timer, external, etc) would switch back to 1) cp kernel instruction address, 2) supervisor mode, and 3) non-DAT mode. 370 introduced BC/EC mode (bit 12 ... former ascii/ebcdic bit in 360 mode). in 360/BC mode, the first 8 bits of the PSW were the channel interrupt mask (if the corresponding bit was one, the processor would take I/O interrupts from that channel). In EC/mode, the channel mask was moved to a 32bit control register and replaced with a single summary bit which would disabled all I/O interrupts (or enabled the control register mask). Following (dated '85) reference contains more detailed description of interrupts & PSW processing for CMS bc-mode operation (about half-way down the document): http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2260/vmcom25.html SIE stands for "start interpretive execution" following from: http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/bookmgr-cgi/bookmgr.cmd/BOOKS/HCSF8A02/3%2e1%2e1%2e2?SHELF=HCSH2A08 3.1.1.2 Interpretive-Execution Facility One of the key differences between processors that support ESA/370 or ESA/390 architectures and System/370 processors is the interpretive-execution facility. CP depends on the interpretive-execution facility to process work for virtual machines. A virtual machine currently running under the control of the interpretive-execution facility is said to be running in interpretive-execution mode. When the virtual machine runs in interpretive-execution mode, the interpretive-execution facility: Handles most privileged and nonprivileged instructions. Handles the virtual interval timer, the clock comparator, and the processor timer. Translates and applies prefixing to storage addresses. For instance, the facility performs the double-page translation required to page third-level storage into first-level storage. Subtopics: 3.1.1.2.1 Assists Supported by the Interpretive-Execution Facility a listing of CP performance facilities: http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/bookmgr-cgi/bookmgr.cmd/BOOKS/HCSI1A02/2%2e1%2e4?SHELF=HCSH2A08 The online VM bookshelf is at: http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/os390/bkserv/vm/ it is possible to select "interpretive execution" text search for VM/ESA V2 R3.0 bookshelf can be done at: http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/os390/bkserv/vm/vm23_srch.html#text which gets the following list: http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/bookmgr-cgi/bookmgr.cmd/Shelves/HCSH2A08?searchRequest=interpretive+execution&action=Search and possibly more than anybody wanted to know about LPARs: http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/bookmgr-cgi/bookmgr.cmd/BOOKS/DA2A8003/CCONTENTS http://www.s390.ibm.com:80/bookmgr-cgi/bookmgr.cmd/BOOKS/DA2A8004/CCONTENTS random other refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@adcomsys.net, lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dk877$2aq$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8dkei8$1iqq$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <956186417.222102@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 13 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:20:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 956186433 203.96.152.26 (Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:20:33 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:20:33 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-feed.fnsi.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54470 In article <8dkei8$1iqq$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: >Isn't that what happens to a hard disk when someone has been downloading >too many of images from some of *those* sites? :*) > >Dave > >P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. I wonder if anyone else found some amusment in the juxtaposition of your post and disclaimer? 8-) -- don ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 00 10:30:59 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8dpk4i$c6s$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <8dk877$2aq$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8dkei8$1iqq$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Trace: nxivCePERFH/wMl8nUZlxkbBjgPghde1uvBSNfKG6Qo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Apr 2000 13:12:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-116 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54502 In article <8dkei8$1iqq$3@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >In <8dk877$2aq$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>In article <8diefh$gaq$2@teabag.demon.co.uk>, >> cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>>In article <8dhnar$p6h$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>>> Twatting. Definition, please? I can't imagine any time >>>> I've had my disk partitions twatted. >>> >>>In this context, breaking or damaging, rather than some bizarrelly >>>obscene contortion... >> >> Then you know what I was trying to picture in my >>head when I read your original blurb. I've seen many >>ways to destroy disks, but .... >> >>/BAH >> >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. > >Isn't that what happens to a hard disk when someone has been downloading >too many of images from some of *those* sites? :*) Of course! And that's why floppies aren't big enough! /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:11:14 -0400 References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> <38faa1d8.17519935@news> <8dhl4j$fvn$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-166.his.com X-Trace: 22 Apr 2000 14:11:09 -0400, pm9-166.his.com Lines: 16 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54605 In article <8dhl4j$fvn$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: > problem at one of the local "go-away-we-don't-exist" intelligence > agencies where two vehicles had the same VM-related license plate: > one from Virginia and one from Maryland. Not quite mainframe in 1984-1985, but I once drove the Beltway from Tysons past Bethesda and saw both UNIX-TM and MT-XINU. Over at the Honeywell building at Tysons, or at SHakey's Pizza in the evenings after we had Explorer Post meetings, there were usually several computing license plates. I recall MULTCS (we only had six letters then), EMACS, MULTIX, and I know there were a few others. ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Date: 29 Apr 2000 00:19:51 GMT Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: eskimo.com X-Trace: eskinews.eskimo.com 956967591 12868 204.122.16.13 (29 Apr 2000 00:19:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eskimo.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Apr 2000 00:19:51 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!204.122.16.44!news.eskimo.com!eskimo.com!dpeschel Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:55102 In article , Gerard S. wrote: > |Derek Peschel wrote in message ... > |VM (the software) is a framework allowing you to run a series of OSs on the > |same computer. It's not an OS itself (though it does have a control > |program, CP, that allows you to send commands to it). Instead, it manages > |virtual machines which the OSs run on. You can also run another copy of VM > |on one of the virtual machines! > > >VM (the software) IS an OS itself. Of course, you may define OS to have this >and to have that, but in the truest sense, it still is an operating system. It >has [lots of stuff] Two people have now corrected me on this. I see I was mistaken. So what _programs_ run under VM, besides CP? (I'm not counting guest OSs as programs, because I thought you needed CP to IPL them.) Note to the acronym haters following along: IPL is IBMese for "boot". -- Derek ###### From: "Gerard S." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) Lines: 66 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:44:37 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.149.16.239 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 956972271 208.149.16.239 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:37:51 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:37:51 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news.good.net!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:55093 Derek Peschel wrote in message ... |In article , Gerard S. wrote: |> |Derek Peschel wrote in message ... | |> |VM (the software) is a framework allowing you to run a series of OSs on the |> |same computer. It's not an OS itself (though it does have a control |> |program, CP, that allows you to send commands to it). Instead, it manages |> |virtual machines which the OSs run on. You can also run another copy of VM |> |on one of the virtual machines! |> |>VM (the software) IS an OS itself. Of course, you may define OS to have this |>and to have that, but in the truest sense, it still is an operating system. It |>has | [lots of stuff] | |Two people have now corrected me on this. I see I was mistaken. | |So what _programs_ run under VM, besides CP? (I'm not counting guest OSs as |programs, because I thought you needed CP to IPL them.) | |Note to the acronym haters following along: IPL is IBMese for "boot". | |-- Derek __________________________________________ VM is essentially CP (Control Program), along with it support programs such as CMS. CMS of course, runs under VM, as well as RSCS and for that matter, anything that will run on a 370 or 390 class machine will most probably run under VM (this includes all flavors of MVS, VS/1, DOS, ACP, TCP, all the stand-alone programs (DARdump, etc), and, of course, you can run VM under VM. If it can IPL (Inital Program Load) under native hardware, VM (CP) can support it. But I gather that you mean what kind of application programs run under VM ? Amost all programs need some kind of operating system, supervisor, monitor, or whatever you want to call it. Every compiler that runs under MVS (as far as I know) also runs under CMS. Almost all programs that don't reply on specific or unique operating system features can be exploited under CMS as well. All the usuall GETMAIN/FREEMAINs, TPUT/TGET, WTO/WTOR, WTL, OPEN/CLOSE, and other "common" SVCs, etc are supported in CMS, as well as a real CVT, plus the usual access methods (SAM, BSAM, QSAM, BPAM, VSAM, etc.). I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but that's what CMS was designed for, program and operating system development and testing, plus supporting a large interactive user base --- way back in 1968 or so when it all started. Every IBM compiler except two (as I heard) was developed under CMS first, then transplanted to MVS, released to the world, and then re-transplanted to CMS for later release. Boy, talk about a circuitous route. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 113 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:20:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.28.138 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 956974803 209.63.28.138 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:20:03 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:20:03 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!test-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.flash.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:55079 dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > So what _programs_ run under VM, besides CP? (I'm not counting guest OSs as > programs, because I thought you needed CP to IPL them.) > > Note to the acronym haters following along: IPL is IBMese for "boot". > > -- Derek CP is the software that provides & manages the virtual machine operation (i.e. effectively simulates the real machine in a virtual machine environment). Essentially, any of the operating systems that can be booted on a real IBM mainframe ... can be booted in a virtual machine ... including a copy of CP itself. Normally CP provides a virtual machine that is a replica of the real machine that CP is running on. However, there have been exceptions to that. Early in the development of 370 (which had additional supervisor state instructures and different virtual memory hardware implementation structure than 360/67) ... a copy of CP/67 was modified that provided 370 virtual machines (in place of 360 & 360/67 virtual machines). This was at 545 tech sq ... and the operation there provided time-sharing services that included access by various MIT personel & students. To not expose & protect the unnounced 370 details ... this modified "CP-H" system was booted in a virtual 360/67 virtual machine (running under CP/67 ... running on the 360/67). A further modification was then made to CP-H so that it would run on a real 370 machine (instead of 360/67 machine). This CP-I system was then booted in a 370 virtual machine provided by the CP-H system that had been booted in a 360/67 virtual machine provided by CP/67 running on a real 360/67. Then "CMS" (conversational monitor system) was booted in a virtual machine provided by the CP-I system that had been booted in a 370 virtual machine provided by the CP-H system that had been booted in a 360/67 virtual machine provided ty by the CP/67 system that had been booted on the real 360/67. This configuration was running and operational a year before the first engineering hardware model was operational. A year later, when the first engineering 370 model was up and running a copy of the "CP-I" system was booted on the machine (boot button on this machine turned out to be a knife switch rather than buttons seen on most 360s & 370s). This boot failed ... it turned out that the hardware engineers had swapped two of the new 370 instructions (the software was correct, but the hardware was wrong). After quick patch to the software, the CP-I system was re-booted on the real 370 and came up succesfully (the engineering machine implementation was eventually corrected to correspond to the hardware specifications). The common mainframe operating systems that have been run under CP have been CMS, DOS, PCP, MFT, MVT, DOS/VS, VS1, SVS, MVS. Other operating systems that have run under CP have been TSS/360 & TSS/370, several flavors of Unix ports, PARS/ACP/TPF (airline control program, now called transaction processing facility ... various financial networks make use of TPF in addition to the airline operations), and MTS (michigan terminal system). There were also a variety of card & tape-based "monitors" (code on tape or cards that could be booted). More recently I believe I saw some reference to thousands of copies of Linux running concurrently under a single CP. There are also a couple of projects that have "CP" that have been implemented on i86 architecture platfroms that provide ibm mainframe virtual machines. http://www.funsoft.com/ http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360/ Most current IBM mainframes provide an abbreviated version of "CP" built into the machine itself that provides "LPARS" (i.e. logical partitions). some information & background of VM/CP http://pucc.princeton.edu/~melinda/ misc. other references: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#20 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#48 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#27 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#20 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#135 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#197 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#49 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#28 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#43 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#54 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.htmo#50 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.htmo#51 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.htmo#52 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@adcomsys.net, lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) References: <38fa418b@news.iprimus.com.au> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 04:14:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.28.138 X-Complaints-To: support@adcomsys.net X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 956981678 209.63.28.138 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 22:14:38 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 22:14:38 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:55081 Some postings from vmesa-l mailing list circa feb this year. This tests running linux images under VM/CP running in a LPAR (logical partition ... subset of the real machine resources). ... > Reason for the question: I want to see just how many Linux images I can cram > onto one CP before it goes casters up. > > (BTW, current count: 10,045 concurrent images. I can now duplicate any WWW > hosting facility on the planet in 10x10 square feet. Admittedly, it's > getting a bit sluggish with only 2 real CPUs, but wait until I get on a box > where I have the FULL resources of the setup instead of a capped > LPAR....8-))) .... > My test LPAR finally ran out of gas (no resources available) at: > > 41,400 > > separate Linux images. Yes, FORTY-ONE THOUSAND WWW servers on a single > physical system. The last few hundred were painful as CP was fighting for > resources against a LPAR cap, but it did it. I finally ran out of storage > at 41K and change. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@adcomsys.net, lynn@garlic.com http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/