From: fake@fake.com (kiNg_bEe) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Punch Card Computers Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:06:29 GMT Organization: New Mexico Internet Access Lines: 7 Message-ID: <38df860c.261349459@news.nmia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: knme-0023.unm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hume.nmia.com 954174218 26499 129.24.50.213 (27 Mar 2000 16:23:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@nmia.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Mar 2000 16:23:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.166.11.MISMATCH!nmia!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53023 I am looking for card punchers and card readers. I would like to purchase these items if possible. Would anyone who has information on where I could aquire this hardware please contact me. Thank you Pete kingbee(remove this)@nmia.com ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52980 > I am looking for card punchers and card readers. I would like to > purchase these items if possible. Would anyone who has information on > where I could aquire this hardware please contact me. There is no such thing. There are tabulating machines that work independently, and periperphal devices connected to a computer. You need to be more specific. ###### From: fake@fake.com (kiNg_bEe) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:29:34 GMT Organization: New Mexico Internet Access Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: knme-0023.unm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hume.nmia.com 954257436 32493 129.24.50.213 (28 Mar 2000 15:30:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@nmia.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 2000 15:30:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!nexus.news.chello.be!news.tvd.be!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.166.11.MISMATCH!nmia!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53089 On 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: >> I am looking for card punchers and card readers. I would like to >> purchase these items if possible. Would anyone who has information on >> where I could aquire this hardware please contact me. > >There is no such thing. > >There are tabulating machines that work independently, and periperphal >devices connected to a computer. > >You need to be more specific. OK, I want the peripherals. I want peripheral devices that punch and read cards relaying data back to a computer. So I suppose I want punch card I/O devices. Parrallel port I/O would be great. If you know of somehting similar let me know. Part of the problem of locating this stuff has been that I don't know what to call it, I don't know maker/model names, and I don't know which models do what I want them to do. Thanks Pete kingbee(remove this)@nmia.com ###### From: jeffreyb@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Organization: The George Washington University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8bqtkc$q9c@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:28:28 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.164.127.252 X-Complaints-To: news@nit.gwu.edu X-Trace: grover.nit.gwu.edu 954266906 128.164.127.252 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:08:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:08:26 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!grover.nit.gwu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53211 In article <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com>, kiNg_bEe wrote: >On 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: >If you know of somehting similar let me know. Part of the problem of >locating this stuff has been that I don't know what to call it, I >don't know maker/model names, and I don't know which models do what I >want them to do. What do you want them to do? What operating system are you using with the card puncher/readers? What size cards are you punching and how many columns/rows? (Personally, I just want a puncher/reader 'cause having one would be fun. :-) ) Yours Truly, Jeffrey Boulier ###### From: "Bart Cotton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 63 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:53:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.107.48 X-Complaints-To: root@cwo.com X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 954276827 209.63.107.48 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:53:47 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:53:47 MST Organization: Coastal Web Online NewsReader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53228 I don't know where you can locate them, but for starters, here are some numbers of IBM "Unit Record" models that read and punch cards: 010 Keypunch 031 Keypunch 024 Keypunch 026 Printing Keypunch 514 Reader/Punch 519 Printing Reader/Punch 528 Accumulating Reader/Punch 082 Card Sorter 083 Card Sorter 084 Card Sorter 077 Collator 088 Collator 552 Card Interpreter/Printer 557 Card Interpreter/Printer 402 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) 407 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) Most of this stuff was made prior to 1960 and was not considered peripheral equipment to computers at that time. Each machine was stand alone and was grouped with the Accounting Machines to get the work done. They were all programable through various methods. Anything that was attached to computers was considered a peripheral. Some of the above reached that status as Input/Output (I/O) devices, or later to be called peripherals. Maybe this old trivia will get you started. "If you didn't live it, it doesn't exist." kiNg_bEe wrote in message news:38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com... > On 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: > > >> I am looking for card punchers and card readers. I would like to > >> purchase these items if possible. Would anyone who has information > on > >> where I could aquire this hardware please contact me. > > > >There is no such thing. > > > >There are tabulating machines that work independently, and > periperphal > >devices connected to a computer. > > > >You need to be more specific. > > OK, I want the peripherals. I want peripheral devices that punch and > read cards relaying data back to a computer. So I suppose I want > punch card I/O devices. Parrallel port I/O would be great. > > If you know of somehting similar let me know. Part of the problem of > locating this stuff has been that I don't know what to call it, I > don't know maker/model names, and I don't know which models do what I > want them to do. > > Thanks > Pete > kingbee(remove this)@nmia.com ###### From: "normanr" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:18:12 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 93 Message-ID: <8bse99$ng1$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-84-186.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Forwarded: by - (DeleGate/5.6.9) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53249 Hi I'm a newbie to newsgroups so sorry if I'm butting in where I shouldn't. It's just that I was pointed here to see if I could find out some information, and this topic just happened to appear. I was clearing out an old storage room recently and found a manual hand punch. I used these back in the 60s and 70s but I've never seen one like this so I would like to know how old it is etc. I should also say that it is in beautiful condition - even the keypads are unmarked. The machine was made by the Accounting and Tabulating Corporation of Great Britain, is described as a "Numerical Printing Punch", serial number 4/095. It punches round holes, and obviously has a printing capability. It sits on a wooden drawer-like stand (part of the original or made to measure?) which has indentations for the punch's feet and a hole in the top for the chad to fall into the drawer. The drawer contains what looks the like the original registration template. Am I right in thinking ACTGB became International Computers & Tabulators which became ICL? Any info would be appreciated Thanks Norman Reid (normanr@scotlegal.com) Bart Cotton wrote in message news:vZ8E4.107$nT2.21268@news-west.eli.net... > I don't know where you can locate them, but for starters, here are some > numbers of IBM "Unit Record" models that read and punch cards: > > 010 Keypunch > 031 Keypunch > 024 Keypunch > 026 Printing Keypunch > 514 Reader/Punch > 519 Printing Reader/Punch > 528 Accumulating Reader/Punch > 082 Card Sorter > 083 Card Sorter > 084 Card Sorter > 077 Collator > 088 Collator > 552 Card Interpreter/Printer > 557 Card Interpreter/Printer > 402 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) > 407 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) > Most of this stuff was made prior to 1960 and was not considered peripheral > equipment to computers at that time. Each machine was stand alone and was > grouped with the Accounting Machines to get the work done. They were all > programable through various methods. > > Anything that was attached to computers was considered a peripheral. Some of > the above reached that status as Input/Output (I/O) devices, or later to be > called peripherals. > > Maybe this old trivia will get you started. > > "If you didn't live it, it doesn't exist." > > kiNg_bEe wrote in message > news:38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com... > > On 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: > > > > >> I am looking for card punchers and card readers. I would like to > > >> purchase these items if possible. Would anyone who has information > > on > > >> where I could aquire this hardware please contact me. > > > > > >There is no such thing. > > > > > >There are tabulating machines that work independently, and > > periperphal > > >devices connected to a computer. > > > > > >You need to be more specific. > > > > OK, I want the peripherals. I want peripheral devices that punch and > > read cards relaying data back to a computer. So I suppose I want > > punch card I/O devices. Parrallel port I/O would be great. > > > > If you know of somehting similar let me know. Part of the problem of > > locating this stuff has been that I don't know what to call it, I > > don't know maker/model names, and I don't know which models do what I > > want them to do. > > > > Thanks > > Pete > > kingbee(remove this)@nmia.com > > ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 29 Mar 2000 14:13:08 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 954339188 162 128.29.251.13 (29 Mar 2000 14:13:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 14:13:08 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!kane.uswmedia.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53166 I'm drawing on rather old and bit-rotted memory here, but... "Bart Cotton" writes: >I don't know where you can locate them, but for starters, here are some >numbers of IBM "Unit Record" models that read and punch cards: >514 Reader/Punch 514 Reproducing Punch. Yes, it had a reader, but only as a data source for the punch part of the machine. >519 Printing Reader/Punch 519 Reproducing Punch -- this was a gussied-up cousin to the 514; I don't recall that it had the ability to print on the cards. >552 Card Interpreter/Printer >557 Card Interpreter/Printer Um..."Interpreter" *means* "printer". These units could read a card and print on it human-readable characters from what was punched into the card and/or constant text; they had no ability to print on other media (such as paper). The interpreters always irritated me because they could only print 60 characters across the card; to interpret an entire 80-character card required two passes through the interpreter, and printed 60 characters on one line (usually above 12-row) and 20 characters on another (usually between 12-row and 11-row). Even assuming that you wired the plugboard to map the first 60 card columns to the 60 printwheels the printed characters didn't line up with the card columns. >402 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) >407 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) You missed the 403 Accounting Machine. The 402/403/407 boxes were just what their name implied: accounting machines, with the ability to read cards, store numbers, add and subtract numbers, remember what type of data card had previously been read, and create reports based on all of this data -- and all of this was done using plugboards. Also, the 407 (and earlier?) machines could be connected to the 519 to permit the accounting machine to output data to punched cards; in this configuration the 519 was a "Summary Punch". Joe Morris ###### From: John Atkinson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:49:25 +0100 Organization: Webseen Ltd Message-ID: References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: webseen.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: webseen.demon.co.uk:193.237.179.214 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 954341424 nnrp-01:18760 NO-IDENT webseen.demon.co.uk:193.237.179.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!webseen.demon.co.uk!john Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53245 In article <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com>, kiNg_bEe writes >On 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: > >>> I am looking for card punchers and card readers. I would like to >>> purchase these items if possible. Would anyone who has information >on >>> where I could aquire this hardware please contact me. >> >>There is no such thing. >> >>There are tabulating machines that work independently, and >periperphal >>devices connected to a computer. >> >>You need to be more specific. > >OK, I want the peripherals. I want peripheral devices that punch and >read cards relaying data back to a computer. So I suppose I want >punch card I/O devices. Parrallel port I/O would be great. > >If you know of somehting similar let me know. Part of the problem of >locating this stuff has been that I don't know what to call it, I >don't know maker/model names, and I don't know which models do what I >want them to do. > >Thanks >Pete >kingbee(remove this)@nmia.com I have 3 IBM 2501 Card readers in the UK these are IBM channel attach devices for Mainframes. They can be attached to a PC with a channel card but this is probably not what you are looking for. I also have IBM 029 and card 129 punches. Documation (the printer people that became part of Storage Technology) Made or put there badge on a desk top model that had a Dataproducts interface as well as a channel interface. This card reader was also attached to a number of mini computers as well as IBM Mainframe. What is it that you want to achieve ? Good luck John Atkinson Webseen Ltd e.mail:johna@webseen.co.uk Please visit our on line Computer Museum http://www.punch-card.co.uk ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 29 Mar 2000 15:19:10 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8bt6te$d5m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu X-Trace: flood.weeg.uiowa.edu 954343150 13494 128.255.28.3 (29 Mar 2000 15:19:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uiowa.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 15:19:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!skynet.be!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!marge.eaglequest.com!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53230 From article , by John Atkinson : > Documation (the printer people that became part of Storage Technology) > Made or put there badge on a desk top model that had a Dataproducts > interface as well as a channel interface. Dataproducts made one of the early small card readers for minicomputer applications. It used a vacuum card pick and a simple straight-line card path past a photoelectric read head, but it wasn't perfect. Documation made a reader that was plug compatable with the Dataproducts reader, but faster, more reliable, and in every way. I've used both readers. I vaguely recall that the designer who did the Dataproducts reader left the company and joined Documation to do their followup. I vaguely recall that the Dataproducts reader was 200 cpm, while the Documation reader could do something like 1000 cpm without sweating. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 29 Mar 2000 15:51:38 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 7 Message-ID: <8bt8qa$c9r$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 954345098 12603 134.117.136.30 (29 Mar 2000 15:51:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 15:51:38 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53229 John Atkinson (john@feemaint.demon.co.uk) writes: > > I also have IBM 029 and card 129 punches. Speaking of 129s, does anyone recall the outcome of the lawsuit brought against IBM turned out? Reminds me of the variable speed windshield wiper story, ie. a lone gut versus the bullies, er biggies. ###### From: John Atkinson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:23:45 +0100 Organization: Webseen Ltd Message-ID: References: <8bt6te$d5m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: webseen.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: webseen.demon.co.uk:193.237.179.214 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 954347054 nnrp-07:11475 NO-IDENT webseen.demon.co.uk:193.237.179.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!webseen.demon.co.uk!john Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53237 In article <8bt6te$d5m$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 writes >From article , >by John Atkinson : > >> Documation (the printer people that became part of Storage Technology) >> Made or put there badge on a desk top model that had a Dataproducts >> interface as well as a channel interface. > >Dataproducts made one of the early small card readers for minicomputer >applications. It used a vacuum card pick and a simple straight-line >card path past a photoelectric read head, but it wasn't perfect. > >Documation made a reader that was plug compatable with the Dataproducts >reader, but faster, more reliable, and in every way. I've used both >readers. > >I vaguely recall that the designer who did the Dataproducts reader left >the company and joined Documation to do their followup. I vaguely recall >that the Dataproducts reader was 200 cpm, while the Documation reader >could do something like 1000 cpm without sweating. > > Doug Jones > jones@cs.uiowa.edu Thanks Doug That's the one I as was thinking of. Not perfect is an excellent description. John Atkinson Webseen Ltd e.mail:johna@webseen.co.uk Please visit our on line Computer Museum http://www.punch-card.co.uk ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:56:49 -0600 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38E251F1.42A8F01A@plano.net> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt8qa$c9r$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53420 Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > > John Atkinson (john@feemaint.demon.co.uk) writes: > > > > I also have IBM 029 and card 129 punches. > > Speaking of 129s, does anyone recall the outcome of the lawsuit > brought against IBM turned out? Reminds me of the variable speed > windshield wiper story, ie. a lone gut versus the bullies, er biggies. > If you are talking about the lawsuits and counter-suits that went on for ten years between Documation and IBM, I think they finally settled it for one dollar. I do *not* know who got the dollar. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Bart Cotton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org> Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 63 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:43:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.107.25 X-Complaints-To: root@cwo.com X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 954359026 209.63.107.25 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:43:46 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:43:46 MST Organization: Coastal Web Online NewsReader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53333 You're right on the 519. It didn't print but it did something that the 514 didn't do but I can't remember what it was. Many of these units were used as the summary punches for the Western Electric AMS relay computer which read the 27 channel paper tapes generated by telephone calls at the phone company. The tape was converted to cards so they could be read by the 1401's which in turn calculated the phone bills, and printed them along with the envelopes. "more trivia" Joe Morris wrote in message news:8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org... > I'm drawing on rather old and bit-rotted memory here, but... > > "Bart Cotton" writes: > > >I don't know where you can locate them, but for starters, here are some > >numbers of IBM "Unit Record" models that read and punch cards: > > >514 Reader/Punch > > 514 Reproducing Punch. Yes, it had a reader, but only as a data source > for the punch part of the machine. > > >519 Printing Reader/Punch > > 519 Reproducing Punch -- this was a gussied-up cousin to the 514; I > don't recall that it had the ability to print on the cards. > > >552 Card Interpreter/Printer > >557 Card Interpreter/Printer > > Um..."Interpreter" *means* "printer". These units could read a card > and print on it human-readable characters from what was punched into > the card and/or constant text; they had no ability to print on > other media (such as paper). > > The interpreters always irritated me because they could only print > 60 characters across the card; to interpret an entire 80-character > card required two passes through the interpreter, and printed 60 > characters on one line (usually above 12-row) and 20 characters on > another (usually between 12-row and 11-row). Even assuming that > you wired the plugboard to map the first 60 card columns to the > 60 printwheels the printed characters didn't line up with the card > columns. > > >402 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) > >407 Accounting Machine (Tabulator) > > You missed the 403 Accounting Machine. The 402/403/407 boxes were > just what their name implied: accounting machines, with the ability to > read cards, store numbers, add and subtract numbers, remember what > type of data card had previously been read, and create reports based > on all of this data -- and all of this was done using plugboards. > > Also, the 407 (and earlier?) machines could be connected to the 519 > to permit the accounting machine to output data to punched cards; in > this configuration the 519 was a "Summary Punch". > > Joe Morris ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38e28b17$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:00:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.97 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 954370842 199.224.125.97 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:00:42 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:00:42 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53338 In <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org>, on 03/29/00 at 02:13 PM, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) said: >519 Reproducing Punch -- this was a gussied-up cousin to the 514; I > don't recall that it had the ability to print on the cards. The 519 had a feature that would allow it to imprint 6 (or was it 8) digits in fairly large type sideways on the card, somewhere around or west of column 70. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- Friends don't let friends use Windows. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38e28b78$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:02:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.97 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 954370938 199.224.125.97 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:02:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:02:18 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!korova.insync.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53342 In <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org>, on 03/29/00 at 02:13 PM, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) said: >Also, the 407 (and earlier?) machines could be connected to the 519 to >permit the accounting machine to output data to punched cards; in this >configuration the 519 was a "Summary Punch". There was another machine (don't remember the number) also used as a summary punch; it only had a single card feed. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- Error: Keyboard not attached. Press F1 to continue. ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 30 Mar 2000 00:56:44 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8bu8oc$qeh@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53267 > The interpreters always irritated me because they could only print > 60 characters across the card; to interpret an entire 80-character > card required two passes through the interpreter, and printed 60 > characters on one line (usually above 12-row) and 20 characters on > another (usually between 12-row and 11-row). Even assuming that > you wired the plugboard to map the first 60 card columns to the > 60 printwheels the printed characters didn't line up with the card > columns. I was always frustrated using the interpreter because of the misaligned columns. In my use, it was a utility machine for output decks punched from the computer or reproduced. These were either computer data or source programs. However, I wonder if that usage was the primary intent of the interpreter. In the above context, card column alignment is pretty important because the card itself is being closely analyzed by a human--perhaps updated in a keypunch and exact column contents are required. But in a production unit record environment (or even as computer output), I think the interpreter was intended to produce readable contents not needed to relate to exact columns. I remember our phone bill return document was an interpretered punch card. It contained marked fields with our phone number, date, amount due, etc. As the customer, we didn't have to match the columns, and I don't think anyone else did either. I believe the amount we sent back with our check with be keypunched (or mark sensed) into the card and it fed back into the billing cycle. So having alignment was not important. Other interpreted cards wer used as inventory cards--I remember even in relatively recent years seeing them as reorder cards behind greeting card displays (now they're op-scan). Again, the human read the title, but didn't align contents. I understand the interpreter had additional functions not as often seen. For example, it could put data all over the card, not just at the top. This gave added flexibility for turnaround documents. It also could edge print a thick bold number sideways to aid in filing. Lastly, I remember even 80 columns could get interpreted in one pass. We also had a 029 that had an interpreting function built in. It wasn't used too much as it was slow. ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 30 Mar 2000 01:00:10 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53266 > Many of these units were used as the summary punches for the Western > Electric AMS relay computer which read the 27 channel paper tapes generated > by telephone calls at the phone company. The tape was converted to cards so > they could be read by the 1401's which in turn calculated the phone bills, > and printed them along with the envelopes. In the unit record machine days there were several conversion machines that converted various punched paper tapes into standard punched cards (and vice versa). This seems awfully wasteful, I wonder why a better converter process couldn't have been developed. In other words, instead of repunched telegraph tapes to cards, have a telegraph tape reader on the 1401, or a card reader on the telegraph machine. Other uses were converting the sales tickets from dept stores. ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.14.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:21:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.144.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 954411695 193.203.144.213 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:21:35 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:21:35 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.esat.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53410 lwin wrote: > In the unit record machine days there were several conversion machines > that converted various punched paper tapes into standard punched cards > (and vice versa). This seems awfully wasteful, I wonder why a better > converter process couldn't have been developed. In other words, instead > of repunched telegraph tapes to cards, have a telegraph tape reader on > the 1401, or a card reader on the telegraph machine. I had an IBM paper tape reader on a 1440 that I looked after around 1965-67. It was used to read 5-hole Baudot tapes but would read up to 8. I haven't any recollection of its model number. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 30 Mar 2000 13:29:37 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8bvks1$lm5$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt8qa$c9r$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 954422977 22213 128.29.251.13 (30 Mar 2000 13:29:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 13:29:37 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53297 ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > Speaking of 129s, does anyone recall the outcome of the lawsuit > brought against IBM turned out? Reminds me of the variable speed > windshield wiper story, ie. a lone gut versus the bullies, er biggies. Um...which lawsuit? Maybe I'm not sufficiently awake this morning, but I don't recall one associated with the 129. Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 30 Mar 2000 13:46:58 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8bvlsi$m0n$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8bu8oc$qeh@netaxs.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 954424018 22551 128.29.251.13 (30 Mar 2000 13:46:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 13:46:58 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53304 lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: >I was always frustrated using the interpreter because of the misaligned >columns. In my use, it was a utility machine for output decks punched >from the computer or reproduced. These were either computer data or >source programs. >However, I wonder if that usage was the primary intent of the interpreter. [...] >But in a production unit record environment (or even as computer output), >I think the interpreter was intended to produce readable contents >not needed to relate to exact columns. No arguments here; an 80-80 [1] interpret function was clearly something that would be inappropriate if the intent was to make the information punched into the card usable by (for example) a retail customer to whom it was sent as an account statement. [1] "80-80" is used to describe a process on a punched-card device in which the 80 columns of the card are copied sequentially to the output media. An 80-80 duplication, for example, would be a process to duplicate all 80 columns of a card; an 80-80 interpretation would print the data from all 80 columns onto the card. >Lastly, I remember even 80 columns could get interpreted in one pass. Um...to my knowledge this wasn't possible on any normal production interpreter from IBM, or at least not until the 129 keypunch came out. The 557 print wheels were far too large to squeeze eighty of them into the width of a card. Although it's possible that the interpreter could print on two rows in a single pass that's a feature I don't remember. >We also had a 029 that had an interpreting function built in. It >wasn't used too much as it was slow. Was this a standard feature or an RPQ? It's been years (and far too many of them) since I had to configure a keypunch order but I don't recall seeing an interpret option. Joe Morris ###### Message-ID: <38E37CBB.DFAF613F@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8bu8oc$qeh@netaxs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 65 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:21:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.101.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 954433269 63.15.101.113 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:21:09 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:21:09 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53316 lwin wrote: > I was always frustrated using the interpreter because of the misaligned > columns. In my use, it was a utility machine for output decks punched > from the computer or reproduced. These were either computer data or > source programs. > > However, I wonder if that usage was the primary intent of the interpreter. > > In the above context, card column alignment is pretty important because > the card itself is being closely analyzed by a human--perhaps updated > in a keypunch and exact column contents are required. > > But in a production unit record environment (or even as computer output), > I think the interpreter was intended to produce readable contents > not needed to relate to exact columns. > > I remember our phone bill return document was an interpretered punch > card. It contained marked fields with our phone number, date, amount > due, etc. As the customer, we didn't have to match the columns, and > I don't think anyone else did either. I believe the amount we sent > back with our check with be keypunched (or mark sensed) into the > card and it fed back into the billing cycle. So having alignment > was not important. > > I understand the interpreter had additional functions not as often seen. > For example, it could put data all over the card, not just at the top. > This gave added flexibility for turnaround documents. It also could > edge print a thick bold number sideways to aid in filing. > > Lastly, I remember even 80 columns could get interpreted in one pass. Yes, it could interpret 80 columns all at once but it would have to print the data on two rows because as stated, the width of the printed characters was wider than the punch columns. IIRC the unit at CMU printed columns beyond whatever was the max which would fit above the 12 line between a couple of the rows about half way down the card. The remaining rows were right justified on the card. IIRC, the print column and row mapping from a punch column was all set up on the plug board. I believe you could print the same data more than once on a card but I am not sure whether you could print the same data more than once on the same line on the card. I'm no plug board programmer, but the unit would "cycle" the print mechanism once for each row. Each row could be a new operation. My use of it was as yours was, looking at copies of my source decks or data decks and the alignment was a problem. The normal use was to print data so "normal" humans who did not have to concern themselves with punching the card could read the data. I would sometimes look through the interpreted cards to find one I wanted to change and then duplicate that card on a keypunch to find the column I needed to change. A lot easier than hand duplicating an entire deck on a keypunch but still not as convenient as having cards printed with the characters over the columns. As always, the human adapts and uses what he has available to get the job done. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <38E38391.467A2C59@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:50:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.101.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 954435014 63.15.101.113 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:50:14 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:50:14 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53301 Nick Spalding wrote: > I had an IBM paper tape reader on a 1440 that I looked after around > 1965-67. It was used to read 5-hole Baudot tapes but would read up to > 8. I haven't any recollection of its model number. Do you remember whether the unit was actually manufactured by IBM or they just included someone else's unit in their box? There were many third party manufacturers of paper tape handling machines and it was common for computer manufacturers to use these units. I'm looking at the maintenance manual for the "PT-10" for the Bendix G-20 and it uses a Digitronics reader and (as many did) a Teletype BRPE punch. They then added their own (or maybe another manufacturer's) spooler/tensioners to each and put it all in a box. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.14.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <38E38391.467A2C59@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:17:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.145.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 954440261 193.203.145.10 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:17:41 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:17:41 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53270 jchausler wrote: > Nick Spalding wrote: > > > I had an IBM paper tape reader on a 1440 that I looked after around > > 1965-67. It was used to read 5-hole Baudot tapes but would read up to > > 8. I haven't any recollection of its model number. > > Do you remember whether the unit was actually manufactured > by IBM or they just included someone else's unit in their box? > There were many third party manufacturers of paper tape > handling machines and it was common for computer > manufacturers to use these units. I'm looking at the > maintenance manual for the "PT-10" for the Bendix G-20 > and it uses a Digitronics reader and (as many did) a > Teletype BRPE punch. They then added their own > (or maybe another manufacturer's) spooler/tensioners > to each and put it all in a box. I don't remember, but would not be at all surprised if were a third party device. The hardware worked fine but I do remember there were problems with the supplied driver software - a deck of cards in those days. -- Nick Spalding ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38e3ba4c$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:34:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 954448462 199.224.125.32 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:34:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:34:22 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53515 In <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com>, on 03/30/00 at 01:00 AM, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) said: >In the unit record machine days there were several conversion machines >that converted various punched paper tapes into standard punched cards >(and vice versa). This seems awfully wasteful, I wonder why a better >converter process couldn't have been developed. In other words, instead >of repunched telegraph tapes to cards, have a telegraph tape reader on >the 1401, or a card reader on the telegraph machine. The conversion machines dated back to when phone billing was done on EAM equipment. Once that was replaced by the 1401, using the converter was probably much more cost effective than an RPQ for an AMA tape reader. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- Windows the Roach Motel of Software: Bugs check in, never check out. ###### From: fake@fake.com (kiNg_bEe) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:21:21 GMT Organization: New Mexico Internet Access Lines: 37 Message-ID: <38e3c410.2313211@news.nmia.com> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bqtkc$q9c@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: knme-0023.unm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hume.nmia.com 954451339 13449 129.24.50.213 (30 Mar 2000 21:22:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@nmia.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 21:22:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.166.11.MISMATCH!nmia!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53438 Idealy I want to produce and read punched cards from a linux box. Any kind of parrallel port interface would do. I suppose I could even get by with a hand card puncher. I could put together a way to control the punching, to automate it. The hardest part is likely to be reading the punched cards. I could use the hardware from a reader to manage the cards and build a device to detect and report the data on the cards back to the PC. Pete On 28 Mar 2000 13:28:28 -0500, jeffreyb@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier) wrote: >In article <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com>, kiNg_bEe wrote: >>On 27 Mar 2000 21:23:56 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: >>If you know of somehting similar let me know. Part of the problem of >>locating this stuff has been that I don't know what to call it, I >>don't know maker/model names, and I don't know which models do what I >>want them to do. > >What do you want them to do? What operating system are you using with the >card puncher/readers? What size cards are you punching and how many >columns/rows? > >(Personally, I just want a puncher/reader 'cause having one would be fun. >:-) ) > > Yours Truly, > Jeffrey Boulier ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 31 Mar 2000 03:59:22 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 57 Message-ID: <8c17qq$5uj@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53558 > >Lastly, I remember even 80 columns could get interpreted in one pass. > > Um...to my knowledge this wasn't possible on any normal production > interpreter from IBM, or at least not until the 129 keypunch came out. > The 557 print wheels were far too large to squeeze eighty of them into > the width of a card. Although it's possible that the interpreter > could print on two rows in a single pass that's a feature I don't > remember. The print width was still 60 columns with an overflow to the next line and it obviously wasn't aligned. But it did all 80 in a single pass, IIRC. > >We also had a 029 that had an interpreting function built in. It > >wasn't used too much as it was slow. > > Was this a standard feature or an RPQ? It's been years (and far too > many of them) since I had to configure a keypunch order but I don't > recall seeing an interpret option. I don't know. Knowing my then employer, I doubt very much it would've been a special order due to expense. I think there was an extra toggle switch on the console for Interpret, and extra hardware over the read station. Noisy and slow. BTW, my then employer had the 129s (to my surprise since they were the advanced model over the 129) since they could do double duty as an a verifier and it was cheaper and more flexible than to have separate machines. But I heard in the early days of the shop they had keypunches without printers since they were cheaper to rent. I understand that shop opened with a 1401 about about 1967-1968. I heard IBM had a sale special on IBM's with hospital software about that time as a way of finding a use for them displaced by S/360s. About 1973 they had to replace the 1401 with a S/360-30 since hardware maintenance was difficult (no nearby available backup machines), and then got a S/360-40 to handle increased volume. They were still heavy into emulation when I was there in 1976. The IBM supplied hospital application programs were quite sophisticated given only 16K and 2Meg disks. What was interesting was the market penetration of IBM mainframe computers. We were in an industrial/residential section of the city, and our IBM C/E had a very small geographic area--there were enough customers in a small sector that he was always close by. I don't think he used a beeper (they did exist back then in limited use), but they came quick if we had a catatrosphic hardware failure. In contrast, the Univac C/E at my next job served the entire city and suburbs. (Of course, back then, I think preventive maintenance required 4 hours once a week, so at best a C/E could serve ten sites). (When I was a little kid IBM had a branch-branch office in my own neighborhood and I always wanted to visit--wished I did while it was still open. Of course I wouldn't have appreciated what was there. Now if I could go back in time with a video camera...) ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:07:12 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8c27u0$fss$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org> <38e28b78$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 954508032 16284 128.29.251.13 (31 Mar 2000 13:07:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:07:12 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53441 jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) writes: > jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) said: >>Also, the 407 (and earlier?) machines could be connected to the 519 to >>permit the accounting machine to output data to punched cards; in this >>configuration the 519 was a "Summary Punch". >There was another machine (don't remember the number) also used as a >summary punch; it only had a single card feed. Last night I dug out my old 407 manual and looked up the section on using the summary punch feature. It listed the devices that could be attached for the purpose as the 514 and 519 (which have been listed upthread) and also the 523, a machine type I'm completely unfamiliar with. Could this be your single-feed punch? Joe Morris ###### From: diskette@shell2.fdn.com (STD DIALUP) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 9 Message-ID: <2F6F4.375$G1.105428@news1.atlantic.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:04:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.199.0.138 X-Trace: news1.atlantic.net 954529470 216.199.0.138 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:04:30 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:04:30 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.nerdc.ufl.edu!news1.atlantic.net!shell2!diskette Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53507 Back in those daze, the parallel port was used for only one purpose. Printing. The card punchers & readers were usually interfaced to a RS-232 port & ran between 110 & 300 baud. kiNg_bEe (fake@fake.com) wrote: : OK, I want the peripherals. I want peripheral devices that punch and : read cards relaying data back to a computer. So I suppose I want : punch card I/O devices. Parrallel port I/O would be great. ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 31 Mar 2000 17:34:56 -0500 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8c396g$rds$1@panix.com> References: <38E38391.467A2C59@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 954542096 27123 166.84.0.226 (31 Mar 2000 22:34:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 22:34:56 GMT X-Newsposter: trn 4.0-test55 (26 Feb 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53555 >> > I had an IBM paper tape reader on a 1440 that I looked after around >> > 1965-67. It was used to read 5-hole Baudot tapes but would read up to >> > 8. I haven't any recollection of its model number. >> Do you remember whether the unit was actually manufactured >> by IBM or they just included someone else's unit in their box? >> There were many third party manufacturers of paper tape >> handling machines and it was common for computer >> manufacturers to use these units. It's a bit later (1970s) but the IBM system 1130 had lotsa old peripherals: 1442 card reader/punch, 1055 (?) paper tape punch. We didn't have the card reader but the photos sure looked identical to the Tally reader I had from the General Precision LGP-21. Little star wheels read the 8 columns, Even the internals seemed identical: 24 volt solenoids activated the clutch for forward or reverse. A 115volt AC motor spun the tension reels and spun the tape gear so long as a clutch was activated. I never got around to making the cable for that since the interface was already in the 1130, it was just a matter of moving the jumper that DISABLED it! The 1620 (?) plotter had an IBM nameplate but it was really made by Calcomp. I still have it: beautiful solid wood case for the pens and parts! -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### From: "Bart Cotton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 01:01:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.107.24 X-Complaints-To: root@cwo.com X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 954550893 209.63.107.24 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:01:33 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:01:33 MST Organization: Coastal Web Online NewsReader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.nerdc.ufl.edu!easynews!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53508 lwin wrote in message news:8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com... > > Many of these units were used as the summary punches for the Western > > Electric AMS relay computer which read the 27 channel paper tapes generated > > by telephone calls at the phone company. The tape was converted to cards so > > they could be read by the 1401's which in turn calculated the phone bills, > > and printed them along with the envelopes. > > In the unit record machine days there were several conversion machines > that converted various punched paper tapes into standard punched cards > (and vice versa). This seems awfully wasteful, I wonder why a better > converter process couldn't have been developed. In other words, instead > of repunched telegraph tapes to cards, have a telegraph tape reader on > the 1401, or a card reader on the telegraph machine. > > > Other uses were converting the sales tickets from dept stores. The telegraph tape reader on the 1401 came later. There wer so many summary punches converting telegraph tape to punch cards that it usually took the major portion of a Customer Engineer's time (IBM Maintenance type) just to keep them running and properly maintained. ###### From: "Bart Cotton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <38e3ba4c$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 01:01:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.107.24 X-Complaints-To: root@cwo.com X-Trace: news-west.eli.net 954550893 209.63.107.24 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:01:33 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:01:33 MST Organization: Coastal Web Online NewsReader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.online.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-west.eli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53509 How about the 1402 reader punches that converted Remington Rand round hole cards to IBM 80 column cards? "If you didn't live it, it doesn't exist" Julian Thomas wrote in message news:38e3ba4c$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net... > In <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com>, on 03/30/00 > at 01:00 AM, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) said: > > >In the unit record machine days there were several conversion machines > >that converted various punched paper tapes into standard punched cards > >(and vice versa). This seems awfully wasteful, I wonder why a better > >converter process couldn't have been developed. In other words, instead > >of repunched telegraph tapes to cards, have a telegraph tape reader on > >the 1401, or a card reader on the telegraph machine. > > The conversion machines dated back to when phone billing was done on EAM > equipment. Once that was replaced by the 1401, using the converter was > probably much more cost effective than an RPQ for an AMA tape reader. > > -- > Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt > remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) > In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! > Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org > WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org > -- -- > Windows the Roach Motel of Software: Bugs check in, never check out. > ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bojhc$rv4@netaxs.com> <38e0ceb1.330362@news.nmia.com> <8bt31k$52$1@top.mitre.org> <38e28b78$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <8c27u0$fss$1@top.mitre.org> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38e63456$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:39:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 954610777 199.224.125.30 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:39:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:39:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53570 In <8c27u0$fss$1@top.mitre.org>, on 03/31/00 at 01:07 PM, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) said: >It listed the devices that could >be attached for the purpose as the 514 and 519 (which have been listed >upthread) and also the 523, a machine type I'm completely unfamiliar >with. Could this be your single-feed punch? Sounds about right. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill. ###### From: p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Apr 2000 18:42:48 GMT References: <8bqtkc$q9c@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000402144248.02612.00001511@ng-cg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53568 The problem isn't getting the punch, the reader, or writing the software -- the problem is getting the cards. I've bought them where I can find them, but the supply is getting low. Recently, I tried making a die to produce them myself but got dismal results due to variations in thickness of the cardstock. Using older machines (IBM 024 Keypunch and a Documation Reader), the transport mechanism is finicky, even when well adjusted. The original application I used to justify the hardware purchase was to read old decks from school into text files on a "modern" computer (pdp-11.) Now, I like to demonstrate the use of card equipment to disbelieving children and folks who think their new PC is so efficient. I just wish that I'd bought the sorter when I had the chance :(. --- p98mccabe@alltel.net Micheal H. McCabe ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 3 Apr 2000 02:09:39 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 7 Message-ID: <8c8uh3$2cj@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!panix!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53672 > The problem isn't getting the punch, the reader, or writing the software -- the > problem is getting the cards. Punch Cards, AFAIK, are still made by paper companies for use as an index card stock. I'm sure some phone calls to major paper companies would turn up a lead. ###### Message-ID: <38E8C457.1B7F0E79@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:18:32 -0700 From: Larry Anderson Reply-To: foxnhare@jps.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <38E38391.467A2C59@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.224.154.54 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.224.154.54 X-Trace: 3 Apr 2000 09:18:39 -0700, 216.224.154.54 Lines: 57 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.224.240 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!news.jps.net!216.224.154.54 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53669 Here are two IBM models for the 1440/1620 (from Computers and Computer Languages - 1966). the 2671 (rather large box like most of the 1440 component boxes), and the 1621 (which resembles a reel to reel tape deck) jchausler wrote: > > Nick Spalding wrote: > > > I had an IBM paper tape reader on a 1440 that I looked after around > > 1965-67. It was used to read 5-hole Baudot tapes but would read up to > > 8. I haven't any recollection of its model number. > > Do you remember whether the unit was actually manufactured > by IBM or they just included someone else's unit in their box? > There were many third party manufacturers of paper tape > handling machines and it was common for computer > manufacturers to use these units. I'm looking at the > maintenance manual for the "PT-10" for the Bendix G-20 > and it uses a Digitronics reader and (as many did) a > Teletype BRPE punch. They then added their own > (or maybe another manufacturer's) spooler/tensioners > to each and put it all in a box. > > Regards, > Chris > AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE > $$ > > ^t!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail > Xref: news.jps.net alt.folklore.computers:6070 > > Nick Spalding wrote: > > > I had an IBM paper tape reader on a 1440 that I looked after around > > 1965-67. It was used to read 5-hole Baudot tapes but would read up to > > 8. I haven't any recollection of its model number. > > Do you remember whether the unit was actually manufactured > by IBM or they just included someone else's unit in their box? > There were many third party manufacturers of paper tape > handling machines and it was common for computer > manufacturers to use these units. I'm looking at the > maintenance manual for the "PT-10" for the Bendix G-20 > and it uses a Digitronics reader and (as many did) a > Teletype BRPE punch. They then added their own > (or maybe another manufacturer's) spooler/tensioners > to each and put it all in a box. > -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html SiliCon 6 Gaming/Gathering-04/01/2000 - http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/silicon.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 ###### From: "The Bakers" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38E38391.467A2C59@earthlink.net> <8c396g$rds$1@panix.com> Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 02:09:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.240.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954900559 12.79.240.90 (Wed, 05 Apr 2000 02:09:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 02:09:19 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53693 Jeff Jonas wrote in message news:8c396g$rds$1@panix.com... > The 1620 (?) plotter had an IBM nameplate but it was really made by > Calcomp. I still have it: beautiful solid wood case for the > pens and parts! The IBM 1130 plotter (OEM'd by Calcomp as you mentioned) was the IBM 1627.......a bit of 1620 heritage there in the 1130 "family" :-) Many happy (?) moments spent with the pens, etc.....unclogging & cleaning them in a little ultrasonic cleaner (although I do remember a piece of thin wire which was used on occasion to clear the ink path), and refilling them too] back in the days when people still tended to wear white shirts to work :-( And I can picture the little wooden box that you have. That pen assembly which screwed onto the plotter carriage and held the actual pen was quite a precision piece of machining and relatively hefty for its size, if I'm not mistaken. IIRC, we had one set of pens/ink for plotting on the "normal" paper and another for plotting on mylar. And how about programming the plotter with the FORTRAN subroutines supplied.......... ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 5 Apr 2000 12:25:21 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8cfbbh$6mv$1@top.mitre.org> References: <38E38391.467A2C59@earthlink.net> <8c396g$rds$1@panix.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 954937521 6879 128.29.251.13 (5 Apr 2000 12:25:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Apr 2000 12:25:21 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53684 "The Bakers" writes: >The IBM 1130 plotter (OEM'd by Calcomp as you mentioned) was the IBM >1627.......a bit of 1620 heritage there in the 1130 "family" :-) For some reason I'm drawing [sorry...] a blank on the Calcomp model numbers of their drum plotters. The IBM 1627 was the small (12"?) one; there was also a larger model of similar design that would handle 30" (?) paper. Calcomp also marketed a control unit (Calcomp model 110) that attached their standard plotters directly to an IBM S/360 channel. The design was absurd; I recall having to break out my soldering pencil to change the address and priority options, which at the time (early 1970s in this case) were *always* implemented as simple jumpers on a circuit card -- except by Calcomp. Software support was also lousy; we had to write our own SYSOUT spooling package for it. (I recall finding a way to read the sense switches on the controller back into the driver even when the device was opened for output only...kludge city.) >Many happy (?) moments spent with the pens, etc.....unclogging & cleaning >them in a little ultrasonic cleaner (although I do remember a piece of thin >wire which was used on occasion to clear the ink path), and refilling them >too] The plotter pens were essentially the same as the traditional "technical" drafting pen, complete with the dohickey (whose official name I never learned) inside the ink reservoir that had a tiny wire attached to it. This tiny wire: * ran through the steel tip and protruded slightly; when the pen touched the surface the wire lifted the dohickey and allowed ink to flow; * was *very* easy to bend, making it unusable. I speak from experience. I assume that typical college book-and-supply stores still carry Kooh-I-Noor drafting pens; these are the same design as the liquid ink pens used by plotters. I'm not sure when they first became common, but eventually felt-tip pens became popular for routine plots, with liquid ink pens available on request for high-precision work. > back in the days when people still tended to wear white shirts to work >:-( And I can picture the little wooden box that you have. That pen >assembly which screwed onto the plotter carriage and held the actual pen was >quite a precision piece of machining and relatively hefty for its size, if >I'm not mistaken. Hefty, because it had to contain a hefty electromagnet to drive the pen assembly onto and away from the paper as commanded by pen-down and pen-up orders in the data stream. Joe Morris ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 6 Apr 2000 13:33:44 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8cihpo$f3s$1@panix.com> References: <8bqtkc$q9c@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> <20000402144248.02612.00001511@ng-cg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 955042425 15660 166.84.0.226 (6 Apr 2000 17:33:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 17:33:45 GMT X-Newsposter: trn 4.0-test55 (26 Feb 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53718 >The problem isn't getting the punch, the reader, or writing the software -- the >problem is getting the cards. Ya, so many were used for shopping lists by now :-) I'm unsure of the truth of this, but a friend-of-a friend reported that a Russian student was seen using a micrometer to measure the THICKNESS of his deck of punch cards. He was astounded - they were all within tolerance, for in Russia, punched cards were often too thick, ... -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 6 Apr 2000 13:44:40 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8ciie8$gf2$1@panix.com> References: <8c8uh3$2cj@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 955043085 15859 166.84.0.226 (6 Apr 2000 17:44:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 17:44:43 GMT X-Newsposter: trn 4.0-test55 (26 Feb 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53781 >> The problem isn't getting the punch, the reader, or writing the software >> -- the problem is getting the cards. >Punch Cards, AFAIK, are still made by paper companies for use as an >index card stock. I'm sure some phone calls to major paper companies >would turn up a lead. They may have the same paper stock and thickness but are they the proper finish/coating for abrasion resistance? Index cards are different sizes than punched cards. index cards are 3 x 5 inches, 4 x 6, 6 x 8 (I think). I don't have a punched card here to measure but the aspect ratio is about 2:1 (height to width). For a while micro fiche was available in punched card size so all those racks, cabinets and trays could be re-used. I haven't seen a punched card rack for years, which is a shame since they were so heavily and ruggedly built. That's one thing I really REALLY miss about computing: the tactile part. You used to touch and feel the cards, the trays and such. Large, heavy substantial parts were often moved around. (oaky, I *don't* miss the fanfold printouts >2 inches thick just to see a few lines of a core dump or the entire rooms full of waste paper gathered for recycling). -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 6 Apr 2000 15:00:42 -0400 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 49 Message-ID: <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com> References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 955047643 17134 166.84.0.226 (6 Apr 2000 19:00:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 19:00:43 GMT X-Newsposter: trn 4.0-test55 (26 Feb 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53747 >> > Many of these units were used as the summary punches for the Western >> > Electric AMS relay computer which read the 27 channel paper tapes > >generated by telephone calls at the phone company. ... >> Other uses were converting the sales tickets from dept stores. Now that we store *everything* on disk it's hard to remember when disk spare was so precious that it was not wasted on source code or data files unless *really* necessary. I worked on the IBM system 1130 for a while. It used 1 meg 14" platters. I was in heaven when we got the Calcomp 11 platter 20 meg washing-machine sized disk drive (yes, removable platters, clear top to see the heads move!). The OS, compilers and executable files were on hard disk but - it had to boot from punched card. I guess ROM was not yet invented :-) A single binary punched card got the disk bootstrap running, but it was still a card only boot (could have been paper tape if we had the reader). - all the compilers and such read CARD INPUT but used the disk for intermediate files and the final object file. (MIT and others made their own batch and spooling systems that allowed file input instead of cards, but I don't believe that the standard IBM software had any such concept). - getting the source code on disk would do little good anyway, there were no editors! [that would haunt me in 1982 when working on an IBM system 3. The company was so cheap they has NO console: only punched card input, Only 1 line printer. No tape backup: only disk packs. Only RPG. I had to write programs every time I needed to edit a file]. - the exception to this: interactive environments such as APL allowed you to work at the console-as-terminal and saved the entire workspace (source code and all variables). Seriously, cards were still the primary storage medium to the 1980s. Not unitl floppies were plentiful and used as file system with named files was there are reasonable way to move around small or large files with ease. People were comfortable with punched cards too. If you saved all the decks, you had an archive of all work, unlike the early folks who tended to save disk space by deleting files after only a month or 2 and then finding that they needed 'em again! -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### Sender: marc@hana.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8c8uh3$2cj@netaxs.com> <8ciie8$gf2$1@panix.com> From: Marco S Hyman Date: 06 Apr 2000 17:16:19 -0700 Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. (www.snafu.org) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.54.48.250 X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 955066579 203 marc@206.54.48.250 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53764 jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) writes: > For a while micro fiche was available in punched card size > so all those racks, cabinets and trays could be re-used. > I haven't seen a punched card rack for years, > which is a shame since they were so heavily and ruggedly built. Heh... saw one just a few weeks ago. A friend who owns a tool-and-die shop picked it up surplus -- I think he said it came from the local community college -- and is now using it to hold misc odds-and-ends. As his odd-and-ends are usually made of steel and are quite heavy the ruggedly built card rack is appreciated. This one was by Tab. // marc ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 7 Apr 2000 03:13:45 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53745 > The OS, compilers and executable files were on hard disk but > - it had to boot from punched card. I guess ROM was not yet invented :-) > A single binary punched card got the disk bootstrap running, > but it was still a card only boot > (could have been paper tape if we had the reader). > - all the compilers and such read CARD INPUT but used the disk for > intermediate files and the final object file. The above facilities were a powerful productivity enhancement over the earlier card-only computers. Once you got an exec module you didn't have to worry about library cards anymore, only your JCL cards (which were quite brief). Before disks, one had to load in the compiler program, then retrieve object cards that were punched (and that took time). The object deck then had to be reloaded every time. > Seriously, cards were still the primary storage medium to the 1980s. > Not unitl floppies were plentiful and used as file system with named files > was there are reasonable way to move around small or large files with ease. Our S/360 converted everything to a 2314 disk in the mid 1970s. We weren't online yet, but we used a batch editor named Librarian (by ADR, still in use today as a source module storage control). Putting the source on disk made things a lot easier, even with a batch update. By the 1970s, disk space costs were coming down, such as the IBM 100/200 meg 3330. Source libraries were put online with monitors such as ROSCOE, VOLLIE, or TSO. Disk space certainly wasn't as freely available as today, but it certainly was available enough to warrant source storage. > People were comfortable with punched cards too. > If you saved all the decks, you had an archive of all work, > unlike the early folks who tended to save disk space by deleting files > after only a month or 2 and then finding that they needed 'em again! Until you dropped a deck that wasn't sequenced. Decks were not that easy to manage. They'd get warped. They'd get torn being read through. They were very big and bulky to store. Card handling machines (ie duplicators, sorters) were noisy and big. ###### Message-ID: <38EE9982.6DD8F812@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 74 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:29:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.121.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 955117770 63.15.121.161 (Fri, 07 Apr 2000 07:29:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 07:29:30 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsf1.elp.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53756 Jeff Jonas wrote: > Now that we store *everything* on disk it's hard to remember when > disk spare was so precious that it was not wasted on source code or > data files unless *really* necessary. > > I worked on the IBM system 1130 for a while. It used 1 meg 14" platters. > I was in heaven when we got the Calcomp 11 platter 20 meg washing-machine > sized disk drive (yes, removable platters, clear top to see the heads move!). My first "real" job out of college involved the DG Nova 1200. Our development system had a single "Alphadisk" (IIRC) which I believe stored 256K x 16 bits. Using DG's RDOS we would read our source decks onto the disks and then do the typical CLG testing. We would edit on-line using DG's line editor. However, typically a couple times a week someone would walk around the department with a directory listing of the entire disk asking who owned such and such (large) files and could you delete them. If it was your file, at the time your only choice was to punch out the source on paper tape (we had the 029 to prepare decks but no card punch on the computer) or just get a listing and from it update your decks manually. You might ask why bother editing on line at all, but the little desk top card reader was so marginal that getting a few edit passes on line was much preferred to having to tease your deck through the reader every time. (note, the reader was not a Documation which were all very good and the "Alphadisk" was what DG was providing before they came out with their own (ill-fated) unit, the Nova Disk.) > - getting the source code on disk would do little good anyway, > there were no editors! Line editors were available back into the 60's at least on mini's. I believe even TECO goes back that far (I never liked it). My story above is 73 ish. > [that would haunt me in 1982 when working on an IBM system 3. > The company was so cheap they has NO console: only punched card input, > Only 1 line printer. No tape backup: only disk packs. > Only RPG. I had to write programs every time I needed to edit a file]. We got half inch mag tape for back-up and file storage about 76 or so along with the the Diablo 31's, front load single platter packs. 2.5MB IIRC. > Seriously, cards were still the primary storage medium to the 1980s. > Not unitl floppies were plentiful and used as file system with named files > was there are reasonable way to move around small or large files with ease. I think we stopped using them seriously in 78 or 79 although we had an 029 up until the mid 80's. As a cost cutting measure we stopped maintenance in the early 80's and during an edit crunch in the mid 80's found that it no longer functioned. It went in the dumpster at that time. In 92 we had a company wide clean out and all our punch card sources from the 70's were tossed. At that time quite a few of those systems were still in service at various customer sites but our management wasn't interested in providing support for them. > People were comfortable with punched cards too. > If you saved all the decks, you had an archive of all work, > unlike the early folks who tended to save disk space by deleting files > after only a month or 2 and then finding that they needed 'em again! I still have some small decks from the 60's, still quite readable. I also have quite a few half inch tapes, but of course, they're useless (most are 7 track UNIVAC 1108). Oh well. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:40:22 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Corporation Lines: 28 Message-ID: <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: saturn.cfht.hawaii.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 955147226 22354 128.171.80.131 (7 Apr 2000 22:40:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Apr 2000 22:40:26 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/735) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53790 lwin wrote: > > The OS, compilers and executable files were on hard disk but > > - it had to boot from punched card. I guess ROM was not yet invented :-) Did you look at how the 1130 read cards? It may not have used a "ROM", but loading in that first card was surely non-trivial. > > A single binary punched card got the disk bootstrap running, > > but it was still a card only boot > > (could have been paper tape if we had the reader). > > - all the compilers and such read CARD INPUT but used the disk for > > intermediate files and the final object file. > > Before disks, one had to load in the compiler program, then retrieve > object cards that were punched (and that took time). The object deck > then had to be reloaded every time. Never heard of mag tapes, I guess :-) Many systems ran just fine with compilers, scratch, and resulting executables on tape. E.g., IBM 1410's booted off tape and stored the assembler and FORTRAN/COBOL compilers on the system tape. And before that there were two pass assemblers which read the source deck twice before punching the object deck, with the source inserted in the middle of the assembler deck. Then there was the "amazing" IBM 1401 FORTRAN card based compiler that was (approx, it's been a few years :-) a 69 pass thingy that stored the intermediate form in memory. ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 8 Apr 2000 02:09:59 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8cm4dn$5dp@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53814 > Never heard of mag tapes, I guess :-) Many systems ran just fine with compilers, > scratch, and resulting executables on tape. E.g., IBM 1410's booted off tape and > stored the assembler and FORTRAN/COBOL compilers on the system tape. Tape is sequential, and impratical to act as a load library. The computer would still have to have some sort of search program loaded first, then a tape searched for the right program. It would be simpler to load the object program, randomly selected by the operator from the cabinet. (The operator would still have to select the program library tape to load it, mount the reel, etc.) ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.14.0 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:14:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.146.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 955188879 193.203.146.118 (Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:14:39 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:14:39 BST Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53837 Jim Thomas wrote: > And before that there were two pass assemblers which read the source deck twice > before punching the object deck, with the source inserted in the middle of the > assembler deck. Then there was the "amazing" IBM 1401 FORTRAN card based > compiler that was (approx, it's been a few years :-) a 69 pass thingy that stored > the intermediate form in memory. As did the RPG compiler, the language being invented to wean people off tabulators onto the 1401. You had to distribute the cards for the individual sections, Input, Calcs, Output etc., between segments of the compiler deck which was about a box and a half of cards IIRC. At the end of the compile you had the compiler in one stacker (which of course you had to unload as you went along), the source in another, a self-loading object deck in one of the punch stackers and the program ready to run in the machine. This compiler was ported to the 360/20 where it operated in just the same way. -- Nick Spalding ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 00:53:08 -0400 References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-165.his.com X-Trace: 9 Apr 2000 00:53:06 -0400, pm9-165.his.com Lines: 41 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53845 In article <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu>, Jim Thomas wrote: > assembler deck. Then there was the "amazing" IBM 1401 FORTRAN card based > compiler that was (approx, it's been a few years :-) a 69 pass thingy that > stored > the intermediate form in memory. 63 passes. And not really card-based -- the compiler was run fromtape, and the source was only read in once from the card-reader, which would have had to be done even if it was being spooled to tape or disk. "Anatomy of a Compiler," by J.A.N. Lee, now a professor at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg, VA -- a terrific book to introduce people to what a compiler needs to do and the approximate order. (Probably still in print, too, although now in a second edition.) My copy (first edition, I should get it signed some day) sits about five feet from where I'm typing. In article <8cm4dn$5dp@netaxs.com>, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) wrote: > Tape is sequential, and impratical to act as a load library. Tape is sequential, but when the alternative is to load object decks or even source from the card reader every single time, tape makes a TERRIFIC load library. Module order can be adjusted to suit installation (or user) needs [1], fairly simple (compact and fast) tools can do the job of locating and loading modules, and in many ways it's a /fine/ system. ehr [1] By which I mean, if the installation runs 75% FORTRAN, 15% IBMAP, and 10% "other" code, it makes sense for the system library tape mounted on A1 to have the FORTRAN compiler followed by the system assembler for the first two modules on the tape. Especially since IBFTC produced output that was fed into IBMAP. ###### From: p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 09 Apr 2000 05:06:42 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000409010642.03467.00000443@ng-fu1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53869 For what it's worth: Cardamation Company 1041 W. Bridge St. Box 7 Phoenixville, PA 19460 1-800-848-1718 http://www.cardamation.com/ Stills makes a full line of punched card equipment. U S Card Corporation 210 Wall Street Tiffin, OH 44883 1-419-447-3012 Is still reputed to make punch cards - this I can't verify right now, but I plan to contact them and get specifics soon. --- p98mccabe@alltel.net Micheal H. McCabe ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Mon, 10 Apr 00 10:10:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> X-Trace: wSr60hd+cEDZXkk73RoUd0/R6Yp9wG/h7i6uEoM05bM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2000 12:51:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-142 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53920 In article <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: > >[unattributed] > >>> People were comfortable with punched cards too. >>> If you saved all the decks, you had an archive of all work, >>> unlike the early folks who tended to save disk space by deleting files >>> after only a month or 2 and then finding that they needed 'em again! > >>Until you dropped a deck that wasn't sequenced. > >Note the use of the word "until" and the absence of the word "if". > >Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one >dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a >"Real Programmer". Really?!? I would have used the adjective "foolish". Anything that had more than 100 cards had a diagonal line on the top. > >Joe Morris (who by the above criterion became a Real Programmer > many times over) If you say so....:-)))) I actually liked handling cards because, if they were dropped, one could carefully pick them up still in order...except for those few that got blown across the room by the fans. Finding the correct place for the blown cards was simply a matter of putting the last few pieces in the jigsaw puzzle. You couldn't do that with paper tape....I hated paper tape. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38f0e94f$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:34:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 955312466 199.224.125.53 (Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:34:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:34:26 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53927 In <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com>, on 04/06/00 at 03:00 PM, jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) said: >Seriously, cards were still the primary storage medium to the 1980s. I think you underestimate the role of mag tape, which was in wide use in some environments as early as 1955. The classic file updating program model used 4 tapes: - old master - change data - new master - print data (or other output) - payroll, inventory, etc. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- All power corrupts, but we need the electricity. ###### Message-ID: <38F16EEF.3A9F9976@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com> <38EE9982.6DD8F812@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:04:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 955346671 194.16.221.33 (Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:04:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:04:31 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed1.telia.no!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53904 jchausler wrote: > > Jeff Jonas wrote: > > > - getting the source code on disk would do little good anyway, > > there were no editors! > > Line editors were available back into the 60's at least on mini's. > I believe even TECO goes back that far (I never liked it). My > story above is 73 ish. Yes, TECO existed in the '60s, and no, TECO isn't a line editor. :-) It's a character editor. TECO don't care about lines. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 10 Apr 2000 12:43:47 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 955370627 5814 128.29.251.13 (10 Apr 2000 12:43:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2000 12:43:47 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53897 lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: [unattributed] >> People were comfortable with punched cards too. >> If you saved all the decks, you had an archive of all work, >> unlike the early folks who tended to save disk space by deleting files >> after only a month or 2 and then finding that they needed 'em again! >Until you dropped a deck that wasn't sequenced. Note the use of the word "until" and the absence of the word "if". Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a "Real Programmer". Joe Morris (who by the above criterion became a Real Programmer many times over) ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 10 Apr 2000 12:54:46 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8csium$5qd$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 955371286 5965 128.29.251.13 (10 Apr 2000 12:54:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2000 12:54:46 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53899 jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) writes: >- getting the source code on disk would do little good anyway, > there were no editors! >- the exception to this: interactive environments such as APL allowed > you to work at the console-as-terminal and saved the entire workspace > (source code and all variables). Um..."no editors" for what system and what time frame? If by the word "editor" you mean an online application where a user sits down and enters tranactions to modify a file, that clearly requires the existence of an interactive capability, but even in the days of the early mainframes you had "update" programs (batch-oriented, of course) which would take an online (usually tape-resident) source file plus an update file and output the new composite file to be fed to the assembler. I spent many, many years using the update facility to maintain IBSYS on 704x systems, and IEBUPDTE to keep OS/360 up to date. Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:13:22 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 955372402 6282 128.29.251.13 (10 Apr 2000 13:13:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:13:22 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53895 ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: >Jim Thomas wrote: > > Tape is sequential, and impratical to act as a load library. >Tape is sequential, but when the alternative is to load object decks or >even source from the card reader every single time, tape makes a TERRIFIC >load library. Module order can be adjusted to suit installation (or user) >needs [1], fairly simple (compact and fast) tools can do the job of >locating and loading modules, and in many ways it's a /fine/ system. Yup, although figuring out how to optimize a tape system was an art. Oddly, I was cleaning up my bookshelves at home recently and ran across the output of a build of a 2-tape IBSYS system from 1969. Decent systems (such as IBSYS) were smart enough to know in many cases what core load (known as a "phase") would be required next, so after loading one phase and passing control to it the system would continue to move the system tape to position it to the start of the next phase. Clearly, a sequential device like a tape drive is *lousy* for true random-access applications (especially if they write ramdomly!) but system library storage doesn't fall into that category. Given my 'druthers, of course, I'll prefer to use random-access storage for the operating system applications and libraries, but with a little common-sense planning in the OS design a tape isn't too bad as the system device. >[1] By which I mean, if the installation runs 75% FORTRAN, 15% IBMAP, and >10% "other" code, it makes sense for the system library tape mounted on A1 >to have the FORTRAN compiler followed by the system assembler for the first >two modules on the tape. Especially since IBFTC produced output that was >fed into IBMAP. On a tape system you would have the five phases for IBFTC (SCAN, STAL, ATR, IXAN, INGEN) in that order on the system tape, but once the INGEN ("INstruction GENeration") phase had been loaded and given control, the system would reposition the system tape to prepare to load MAP010, which was the compiler-assembler interface module. As a practical matter, a heavy FORTRAN shop would put MAP010 immediately after INGEN on the tape, but the same MAP010 phase would be required by the COBOL compiler (on a binary, word-oriented machine -- ugh!) and by some third-party compilers that used the MAP assembler as a back-end processor (such as the Grenoble ALGOL compiler). Joe Morris ###### From: sohara@curunir.elsevier.nl (Steve O'Hara Smith) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:44:50 GMT Organization: Elsevier Science B.V. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <955374246.684270@caiman.elsevier.nl> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: caiman.elsevier.nl X-Trace: news.surfnet.nl 955374290 26597 145.36.5.3 (10 Apr 2000 13:44:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.surfnet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2000 13:44:50 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Cache-Post-Path: caiman.elsevier.nl!unknown@curunir.elsevier.nl X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!surfnet.nl!news.surfnet.nl!curunir!sohara Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53921 Jim Thomas (thomas@cfht.hawaii.edu) wrote: : lwin wrote: : > > The OS, compilers and executable files were on hard disk but : > > - it had to boot from punched card. I guess ROM was not yet invented :-) : Did you look at how the 1130 read cards? It may not have used a "ROM", but : loading in that first card was surely non-trivial. This one I remember :) The boot card for an 1130 was a binary image (the packing was odd), there was a really small ROM that could read an image from card to core and run the resultant code. The next stage was to read a block from the system disc and execute that, which would load the OS. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:27:39 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-YztPW6vWCO+FcjivGT4SNnjhXL3we2AAauKEyeTxWmBnGgwome7NP5LEtd21b39DFsFkN8XRYPNIfsc!vKPlcrGZeTb2lHoSXyN1NA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:27:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53896 On Mon, 10 Apr 00 10:10:57 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one >>dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a >>"Real Programmer". >Really?!? I would have used the adjective "foolish". Anything >that had more than 100 cards had a diagonal line on the top. I'd be really, really surprised if you, or someone you knew, hadn't learned that lesson the hard way. A saying from aviation is apropos here: "There are two kinds of retractable gear pilots: those who have landed gear-up, and those who will." The same can be said of dropping unsequenced decks. ###### Message-ID: <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:57:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.102.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 955378641 63.15.102.130 (Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:57:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:57:21 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53900 Joe Morris wrote: > >Until you dropped a deck that wasn't sequenced. > > Note the use of the word "until" and the absence of the word "if". > > Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one > dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a > "Real Programmer". > > Joe Morris (who by the above criterion became a Real Programmer > many times over) Well gee, I was both a user and an operator and I dropped both my own unsequenced decks as well as others more than once. What does that make me :-) I tended to keep my sources on half inch mag tape as a result (although one could drop and damage a tape as the plastic spools would break and sometimes damage the tape itself. I saw this but never did it.) Re the discussion above on line/text editors. Most systems supported a batch based editing function. I would keep moving out the tape with each new edit so I had an audit trail of my changes. The edit decks were small and less likely to be dropped :-) I also used such a system (an RJE, remote job entry) from TTY's just typing in the edits. About once a week I would copy the source tape (all files) to another just for back-up. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 10 Apr 00 16:21:05 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 49 Message-ID: <2192.135T298T9813687@sky.bus.com> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-458.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53954 In article spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) writes: >Jim Thomas wrote: > >> And before that there were two pass assemblers which read the source >> deck twice before punching the object deck, with the source inserted >> in the middle of the assembler deck. Then there was the "amazing" >> IBM 1401 FORTRAN card based compiler that was (approx, it's been a >> few years :-) a 69 pass thingy that stored the intermediate form in >> memory. > >As did the RPG compiler, the language being invented to wean people off >tabulators onto the 1401. You had to distribute the cards for the >individual sections, Input, Calcs, Output etc., between segments of the >compiler deck which was about a box and a half of cards IIRC. At the >end of the compile you had the compiler in one stacker (which of course >you had to unload as you went along), the source in another, a >self-loading object deck in one of the punch stackers and the program >ready to run in the machine. > >This compiler was ported to the 360/20 where it operated in just the >same way. Oh wow, I hadn't thought of a multi-stacker card reader being able to separate the decks again. I cut my teeth on the Univac 9300 equivalent of that big RPG deck, and since the card reader only had a single stacker, you had to separate your source code chunks out again after the compilation was complete. To do a card assembly you fed in the assembler pass 1 deck, the source deck, the assembler pass 2 deck, then the source deck again. If your source deck was thick enough (800 cards or so) you could pull bits of it out of the stacker and drop it right back into the hopper so that the assembly would run non-stop. And, of course, during the second pass you'd drop the cross-reference utility onto the back and cycle the source deck a third time; you still had to boot the cross-reference utility separately, but at least the cards were ready to go. There was something satisfyingly physical about handling cards. BTW if anyone is interested, a deck contains about 150 cards per inch of thickness. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 11 Apr 00 11:26:43 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <1745.136T2195T6865844@sky.bus.com> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38F3D2CE.D0F26715@earthlink.net> <38F33435.52632FB9@space.physics.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-099.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53959 In article <38F33435.52632FB9@space.physics.uiowa.edu> wtr@space.physics.uiowa.edu (William Robison) writes: >jchausler wrote: > >> Most tape drives I've used had vacuum columns, my favorite being >> UNIVAC UNISERVO VIII's which tended not to damage the tapes >> even with a vacuum column failure (in my experience). The biggest >> problem I had was with the IBM drives which used a pinch roller >> capstan instead of a vacuum capstan. > >Like the UNISERVO-VI But then, the favourite way a UNISERVO VI-C (like the pair I have in my basement) would eat a tape was during rewind, when it would carefully pull the tape out of the vacuum columns and then crank up the feed reel, depending on tape tension to drive the takeup reel instead of using the motor. Our one attempt to try using 3600-foot tapes on those beasts was disastrous - if you tried rewinding from near the beginning of the tape, the outermost layer would slip off the others and crumple itself around the hub between the flange and the rest of the tape on the reel. (Although if you ran the tape all the way to the end before rewinding, you might get away with it.) Many sites had to replace all their tapes when they switched from VI-Cs to newer drives like the 10s, which were much more gentle. Old tapes could develop wrinkles that rendered them unreadable on the newer drives, but that didn't bother the VI-Cs because they applied enough tension to the tape to stretch it flat again. If the wrinkling got bad enough to cause errors on the VI-C, you could use a lint-free cloth to press the tape against the head firmly enough to read it one last time and copy it to a new tape. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Tue, 11 Apr 00 10:12:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8cv77c$imc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: b2o8+PEWdgAsBg63s4i1D6eI+GXhtjE1n7uzWm80iI0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2000 12:53:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-116 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53970 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >On Mon, 10 Apr 00 10:10:57 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one >>>dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a >>>"Real Programmer". >>Really?!? I would have used the adjective "foolish". Anything >>that had more than 100 cards had a diagonal line on the top. > >I'd be really, really surprised if you, or someone you >knew, hadn't learned that lesson the hard way. I was told how to prevent random card distribution. Since I had an imagination, I heeded the advice. > >A saying from aviation is apropos here: "There are two >kinds of retractable >gear pilots: those who have landed gear-up, and those who will." The same >can be said of dropping unsequenced decks. I listened to my elders. One little act prevented headaches. The retractable gear pilots don't have that luxury of prevention. Your analogy applies more to on-line typing. The possiblity of screwing up every time a new line is typed applies to your pilot analogy. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:42:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 955431767 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:42:47 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:42:47 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53998 In article <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: >Well gee, I was both a user and an operator and I dropped both my >own unsequenced decks as well as others more than once. What >does that make me :-) I tended to keep my sources on half inch >mag tape as a result (although one could drop and damage a tape >as the plastic spools would break and sometimes damage the tape >itself. I saw this but never did it.) Re the discussion above on There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a tape in opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they allow enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before the tape whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to be longer, thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) -- don ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:13:20 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-fv0dbOwh9c3Betr1INMqoFjtkvBgv7As5MFHU26N2W3OslRq8zE1OwnB1K76CMD9U33QsZt0sZvBQt1!eKGZ+yWnQyMRqp4or8Q1Zg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:13:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53946 On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:42:47 GMT, Don Stokes wrote: >There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a >tape in opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they >allow enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before >the tape whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to >be longer, thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) I'd always understood vacuum column tape drives (or at least the IBM 3420, the only one with which I have any experience) used the columns to perform the actual tape motion, moving the tape across the head by precise control of the vacuum, and the reel motors were there only to keep the columns supplied. This was about the only way they could get the tape to slow from 200 IPS to a dead stop and speed it back up again in the 0.3 inches of a block gap at 6250 BPI. Watching a 3420-8 in operation was a fascinating experience when the program was using short blocks; the tape would let out a moan if everything was just right. ###### From: John Atkinson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:08:23 +0100 Organization: Webseen Ltd Message-ID: References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: webseen.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: webseen.demon.co.uk:193.237.179.214 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 955458526 nnrp-12:12719 NO-IDENT webseen.demon.co.uk:193.237.179.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news-x.support.nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!webseen.demon.co.uk!john Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54005 In article , Jay Maynard writes >On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:42:47 GMT, Don Stokes wrote: >>There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a >>tape in opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they >>allow enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before >>the tape whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to >>be longer, thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) > >I'd always understood vacuum column tape drives (or at least the IBM 3420, >the only one with which I have any experience) used the columns to perform >the actual tape motion, moving the tape across the head by precise control >of the vacuum, and the reel motors were there only to keep the columns >supplied. This was about the only way they could get the tape to slow from >200 IPS to a dead stop and speed it back up again in the 0.3 inches of a >block gap at 6250 BPI. Watching a 3420-8 in operation was a fascinating >experience when the program was using short blocks; the tape would let out a >moan if everything was just right. The capstan controls the movement of the tape across the head on the 3420 and other single capstan tapes drives. The capstan was a by- directional DC motor with very fast start stop speeds controlled by fast switching transistors formed into what was commonly known as an H switch (as were the reel motors). The first single capstan tapes were developed by Potter and I believe IBM paid royalties on all there 3420,s and similar devices. Prior to the single capstan tape drive the IBM 2400 range used prolays. These were basically pinch rollers to move the tape. John Atkinson Webseen Ltd e.mail:johna@webseen.co.uk Please visit our on line Computer Museum http://www.punch-card.co.uk ###### Message-ID: <38F3290C.52800BB0@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 50 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:30:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 955459854 194.16.221.33 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:30:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:30:54 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!newsfeed1.telia.no!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53960 Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:42:47 GMT, Don Stokes wrote: > >There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a > >tape in opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they > >allow enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before > >the tape whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to > >be longer, thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) > > I'd always understood vacuum column tape drives (or at least the IBM 3420, > the only one with which I have any experience) used the columns to perform > the actual tape motion, moving the tape across the head by precise control > of the vacuum, and the reel motors were there only to keep the columns > supplied. This was about the only way they could get the tape to slow from > 200 IPS to a dead stop and speed it back up again in the 0.3 inches of a > block gap at 6250 BPI. Watching a 3420-8 in operation was a fascinating > experience when the program was using short blocks; the tape would let out a > moan if everything was just right. I kindof doubt it. Vacuum is extremely bad for such precise stuff. The general idea is that the vacuum is used to have some slack at each side of the read head. Then you have a small motor which runs the tape back and forth over the head. The reels are actuated by vacuum switches in the columns, so that when you get too little slack, more tape will roll out, and when you get too much slack, some will be taken up. The short piece of tape running over the head, and between the columns represent very little mass, and thus can be accelerated very fast. If you were to use the columns for this, it would mean that you had to find balance between the two columns, change the vacuum for different operations, run the reel motors with more intelligence and balance them against the columns, and the problems will be huge, not to speak of the trick of finely position the tape. Thinking of it; no way you've seen a tape drive where the vacuum columns were used for moving the tape. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### Message-ID: <38F3D2CE.D0F26715@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:35:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.50.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 955460128 63.15.50.94 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:35:28 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:35:28 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53962 Don Stokes wrote: > In article <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net>, > jchausler wrote: > >Well gee, I was both a user and an operator and I dropped both my > >own unsequenced decks as well as others more than once. What > >does that make me :-) I tended to keep my sources on half inch > >mag tape as a result (although one could drop and damage a tape > >as the plastic spools would break and sometimes damage the tape > >itself. I saw this but never did it.) Re the discussion above on > > There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a > tape in opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they > allow enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before > the tape whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to > be longer, thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) Most tape drives I've used had vacuum columns, my favorite being UNIVAC UNISERVO VIII's which tended not to damage the tapes even with a vacuum column failure (in my experience). The biggest problem I had was with the IBM drives which used a pinch roller capstan instead of a vacuum capstan. This would frequently "age" the tapes quickly. I've had very little problem with the "friction capstan" drives either. Now tension arm drives are another matter :-) Anyway, even with a number of vacuum column unloads, I've never lost a tape to them. Safety's tended to cut off the drive motors when the columns unloaded. Bigger problems would happen it the sensor for the reflective strip BOT marker failed as the tape would continue rewinding past the beginning. This would sometimes physically damage the very beginning of the tape but this was (should have been) way before any data was recorded. Some people would put the reflective strips too close to the physical beginning of the tape and they got what they deserved.... Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALOGL,TAPE $$ ###### From: William Robison Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:18:29 -0500 Organization: University of Iowa Lines: 14 Message-ID: <38F33435.52632FB9@space.physics.uiowa.edu> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38F3D2CE.D0F26715@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wtrpc.physics.uiowa.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: flood.weeg.uiowa.edu 955462497 23460 128.255.33.89 (11 Apr 2000 14:14:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uiowa.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Apr 2000 14:14:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54006 jchausler wrote: > > Most tape drives I've used had vacuum columns, my favorite being > UNIVAC UNISERVO VIII's which tended not to damage the tapes > even with a vacuum column failure (in my experience). The biggest > problem I had was with the IBM drives which used a pinch roller > capstan instead of a vacuum capstan. Like the UNISERVO-VI :-) -Willy ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Organization: Daedalus Consulting Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <955489254.147421@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 54 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:41:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 955489270 203.96.152.26 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:41:10 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:41:10 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54051 In article , Jay Maynard wrote: >On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:42:47 GMT, Don Stokes wrote: >>There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a >>tape in opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they >>allow enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before >>the tape whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to >>be longer, thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) > >I'd always understood vacuum column tape drives (or at least the IBM 3420, >the only one with which I have any experience) used the columns to perform >the actual tape motion, moving the tape across the head by precise control It was a DEC (really Pertec) TA79 drive that I had do this to me. The tape was being rewound. Both the reel and take-up spool were powered for this. What I think was supposed to happen was that the reel would rewind at a fixed speed, and the take-up spool's speed would be regulated (by optical sensors in the vacuum columns) to keep the tape slack enough to stay in the columns. Anyway, the tape had snagged somehow in the take-up spool so that instead of spooling off it, it started being pulled back on itself. By the time the slack in the columns was taken up (and the take-up spool would be *accelerated* to try to put more slack in the tape), there was enough tape wrapped the wrong way around the take-up spool that the snag wouldn't pull free and the reels had reached sufficient speed that the force applied when the slack ran out snapped the tape. It takes a *lot* of force to snap a half inch magtape, and the broken ends of the tape looked more like wires than a half-inch strip of mylar. >of the vacuum, and the reel motors were there only to keep the columns >supplied. This was about the only way they could get the tape to slow from >200 IPS to a dead stop and speed it back up again in the 0.3 inches of a >block gap at 6250 BPI. Watching a 3420-8 in operation was a fascinating >experience when the program was using short blocks; the tape would let out a >moan if everything was just right. I think other posters are correct about there being additional control on tape motion near the head. IIRC, the TA79 had powered suction wheels; the wheel had pinholes that supplied negative pressure to pull the (back of) the tape against it to supply enough drag for positive control. I think the idea was that when the tape was streaming, positive pressure could be applied to turn the thing into an air bearing, but I can't remember for sure. I did once see tape wrapped around one of these so many times it had filled the space between the wheel and the chassis (and then some) and bent the wheel's axle. The tape had to be chipped away at with a sharp knife to remove it. That was another tape that didn't live to have its data recovered... -- don ####### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 12 Apr 2000 17:55:16 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 53 Message-ID: <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 955562116 27200 128.29.251.13 (12 Apr 2000 17:55:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Apr 2000 17:55:16 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54077 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: >>lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: >> >>[unattributed] >> >>>> People were comfortable with punched cards too. >>>> If you saved all the decks, you had an archive of all work, >>>> unlike the early folks who tended to save disk space by deleting files >>>> after only a month or 2 and then finding that they needed 'em again! >> >>>Until you dropped a deck that wasn't sequenced. >> >>Note the use of the word "until" and the absence of the word "if". >> >>Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one >>dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a >>"Real Programmer". >Really?!? I would have used the adjective "foolish". Anything >that had more than 100 cards had a diagonal line on the top. Well...there are a few problems with that: * Lots of decks were large enough that adjacent cards were marked at essentially the same place. Assuming that you had a single stripe on the deck (see below), *and* the stripe appeared on every card (also see below) you could catch card number 10 if it was stuck in the back near card 900, but you had far less probability of catching a mis-sequence if cards 9 and 10 were switched. * Although (as noted upthread) the cards were manufactured to very exacting mechanical specs, it was easy to have them slightly out of alignment in a handheld deck or one in a card box. This meant that if you striped the slightly out-of-alignment deck, adjacent cards could be marked slightly to the left or right of where they should, and if there was a slight vertical misalignment the higher card could "shield" an adjacent, lower card and prevent it from being marked at all. * And of course the decks were seldom static, so what was once a perfectly marked deck would accumulate gaps where new cards were added, and the original stripe would have jagged sections where cards were remove, or even relocated to other parts of the deck. Decks for programs under development would often get multiple stripes as the programmer from time to time would get a different-colored Magic Marker to put yet another stripe on the deck. Joe ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 12 Apr 2000 17:59:34 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8d2di6$qlo$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 955562374 27320 128.29.251.13 (12 Apr 2000 17:59:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Apr 2000 17:59:34 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!128.223.220.26!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54085 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >On Mon, 10 Apr 00 10:10:57 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>Nobody who hadn't dropped a deck of unsequenced cards (or had one >>>dropped for them by the computer operator) could call themselves a >>>"Real Programmer". >>Really?!? I would have used the adjective "foolish". Anything >>that had more than 100 cards had a diagonal line on the top. >I'd be really, really surprised if you, or someone you knew, hadn't learned >that lesson the hard way. >A saying from aviation is apropos here: "There are two kinds of retractable >gear pilots: those who have landed gear-up, and those who will." The same >can be said of dropping unsequenced decks. Perhaps a more appropriate version of the saying is: "There are three types of retractable gear pilots: those who have landed gear-up, those who will, and those who will do so again." Joe Morris / 1703860CFII / who hasn't (yet) landed gear-up ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2di6$qlo$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:14:27 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-s1ora3OEaMCIXXAmh6VJRkc3k2w++YA2Bk0wf066Tgnuol33ie0LbdVs5A/32yxK6Jf1G1TnioufXzq!Nu7ZUraw9pFu5kPocfuf X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:14:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54078 On 12 Apr 2000 17:59:34 GMT, Joe Morris wrote: >Perhaps a more appropriate version of the saying is: "There are three >types of retractable gear pilots: those who have landed gear-up, those >who will, and those who will do so again." Yeah, well...since all of my measly 170 hours are in fixed-gear aircraft, I can't really speak to that, yet...perhaps one day when I get rich. I can speak to having dropped unsequenced card decks, though. :-( ###### Message-ID: <38F58603.DB6BE783@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38F3D2CE.D0F26715@earthlink.net> <38F33435.52632FB9@space.physics.uiowa.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:32:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.50.156 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 955571545 63.15.50.156 (Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:32:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:32:25 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54090 William Robison wrote: > jchausler wrote: > > > > Most tape drives I've used had vacuum columns, my favorite being > > UNIVAC UNISERVO VIII's which tended not to damage the tapes > > even with a vacuum column failure (in my experience). The biggest > > problem I had was with the IBM drives which used a pinch roller > > capstan instead of a vacuum capstan. > > Like the UNISERVO-VI > > :-) Yea, I dealt with one VI, it was tied to a 1004. Originally this was used for off-line listing for an IBM 7040 (the VI was much better than the IBM 7330 drives on the 7040, IMHO :-) Later, with a special plug board for the 1004 it was used to drive a Calcomp drum plotter. The VI tended (it was old and beat) to unload a lot but to my knowledge it never harmed the tape, certainly never one of my tapes. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8bu8uq$qq2@netaxs.com> <8cimsq$rtj$1@panix.com> <8csium$5qd$1@top.mitre.org> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38f76030$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:15:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 955736114 199.224.125.74 (Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:15:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:15:14 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54126 In <8csium$5qd$1@top.mitre.org>, on 04/10/00 at 12:54 PM, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) said: >even in the days of the >early mainframes you had "update" programs (batch-oriented, of course) >which would take an online (usually tape-resident) source file plus an >update file and output the new composite file to be fed to the >assembler. Univac I had DTMB-OMNIBUS which allowed manual updating of data on tapes from the console. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- This computer ain't junk. This is an antique! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:57:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 955738648 199.224.125.74 (Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:57:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:57:28 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54132 In <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, on 04/11/00 at 05:42 AM, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) said: >There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a tape in >opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they allow >enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before the tape >whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to be longer, >thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) Or a tape drive that merrily despooled all the tape onto the floor :-( -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- Programming today is a race between software engineers stirring to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: <38f76a74$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.1 c10 Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:59:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 955738742 199.224.125.74 (Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:59:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:59:02 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54133 In , on 04/11/00 at 02:08 PM, John Atkinson said: >The first single capstan tapes were developed by Potter and I believe IBM >paid royalties on all there 3420,s and similar devices. There were also the Datamatic-Honeywell drives with 2 vacuum capstans. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- You said Windows was a Power Tool??? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 14 Apr 00 18:36:09 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 62 Message-ID: <3055.139T465T11164234@sky.bus.com> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-456.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54185 In article ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: >Major and minor indices: one stripe across the entire deck from column >1 through 40, roughly; and then a series of sharper-angle stripes from >40-through-80, repeated several times for each set of a few hundred >cards. Worked just fine! > >Of course, once you moved a section of code around, it was all >screwed up. And that's why, long before I ever encountered a COBOL compiler, I had already outgrown that silly (albeit standard) practice of putting sequential numbers in front of labels in the procedure division, e.g. 000-INITIALIZE. In the first shop where I worked, the only languages we had on our 16K Univac 9300 card system were RPG and assembly. The card assembler only accepted 4-character labels (actually it ignored any characters after the fourth, which opened the door to some interesting bugs), and when I started there most programs had labels like A001, A002, etc. I quickly learned the folly of such a practice when I had to move a section of code, and promptly switched over to mnemonic labels (for sufficiently small values of "mnemonic" :-). It could have been worse. A nearby shop had a 9200 that was stripped down to the bare minimum: 8K of memory, a 96-position printer, and no multiply/divide/edit hardware (you had to call subroutines to interpret MP, DP, and ED instructions). That didn't give the assembler much room for a symbol table, which meant you had to resort to such abominable practices as branching to *+8 (or even worse, *-36) to save labels - which made program modifications perilous indeed. >I sometimes had stripes on top that no longer meant anything, >and stripes on the bottom of the deck that I paid attention to. >If the interpreter had 80 columns, this would not have been a big >deal, but if I duped the deck and interpreted the duped deck, I >could only see the first sixty characters of printing on the top >line (a second interpreter pass put the next 20 on the next line, >if you re-plugged the board), which was less than satisfactory. I learned to hate the 557 at university for that reason, but at least they had preprinted cards so you could read the column numbers. Out in the Real World [tm] I worked in small Univac shops and never saw a 557 again. The Univac 1710 keypunch could interpret a deck - and get 80 characters across the card, too - but we seldom found it worth the effort to reproduce and interpret source decks. If a source deck did originally have a diagonal stripe, it would blur as we moved cards around, and fade as we replaced cards - so we eventually gave up on striping source decks. After all, there was always the hard-copy listing if the worst happened - but as anyone who's dropped a few decks knows, with a bit of practice you can get rather good at picking it up in the proper order, with only a few individual cards or groups of cards to re-file according to the listing. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first peri ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Sat, 15 Apr 00 10:38:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 85 Message-ID: <8d9q8b$k24$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> <3055.139T465T11164234@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: BpmEuUUpY0E74SUKbYZ3UAsSFgxhZi2EmgmInCzUqFo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2000 13:19:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-55 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54192 In article <3055.139T465T11164234@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article ehrice@his.com >(Edward Rice) writes: > >>Major and minor indices: one stripe across the entire deck from column >>1 through 40, roughly; and then a series of sharper-angle stripes from >>40-through-80, repeated several times for each set of a few hundred >>cards. Worked just fine! >> >>Of course, once you moved a section of code around, it was all >>screwed up. > >And that's why, long before I ever encountered a COBOL compiler, >I had already outgrown that silly (albeit standard) practice of >putting sequential numbers in front of labels in the procedure >division, e.g. 000-INITIALIZE. > >In the first shop where I worked, the only languages we had on >our 16K Univac 9300 card system were RPG and assembly. The card >assembler only accepted 4-character labels (actually it ignored >any characters after the fourth, which opened the door to some >interesting bugs), and when I started there most programs had >labels like A001, A002, etc. I quickly learned the folly of >such a practice when I had to move a section of code, and promptly >switched over to mnemonic labels (for sufficiently small values >of "mnemonic" :-). I wonder if that was the beginning of MACRO-10? Not in your specific area, but in the evolution of computer programming. I've always been interested in trying to figure out how an assembler got started. I mean, did there exist a day when the hardware designer just threw up his hands and said, "THAT'S IT! I have HAD IT up to here". And immediately began to punch a tape that took over the toggles that had become repeatable. Wait a minute...that implies there was a tape reader. > >It could have been worse. A nearby shop had a 9200 that was >stripped down to the bare minimum: 8K of memory, a 96-position >printer, and no multiply/divide/edit hardware (you had to call >subroutines to interpret MP, DP, and ED instructions). That >didn't give the assembler much room for a symbol table, which >meant you had to resort to such abominable practices as branching >to *+8 (or even worse, *-36) to save labels - which made program >modifications perilous indeed. I remember those absolute addresses. I even remember eliminating a few in some CUSPs that were purposely ignored until I became the repository of all orphan CUSPs. > >>I sometimes had stripes on top that no longer meant anything, >>and stripes on the bottom of the deck that I paid attention to. >>If the interpreter had 80 columns, this would not have been a big >>deal, but if I duped the deck and interpreted the duped deck, I >>could only see the first sixty characters of printing on the top >>line (a second interpreter pass put the next 20 on the next line, >>if you re-plugged the board), which was less than satisfactory. > >I learned to hate the 557 at university for that reason, but >at least they had preprinted cards so you could read the column >numbers. Out in the Real World [tm] I worked in small Univac >shops and never saw a 557 again. The Univac 1710 keypunch could >interpret a deck - and get 80 characters across the card, too - >but we seldom found it worth the effort to reproduce and interpret >source decks. If a source deck did originally have a diagonal >stripe, it would blur as we moved cards around, and fade as we >replaced cards - so we eventually gave up on striping source decks. >After all, there was always the hard-copy listing if the worst >happened - but as anyone who's dropped a few decks knows, with >a bit of practice you can get rather good at picking it up in >the proper order, with only a few individual cards or groups >of cards to re-file according to the listing. Heh. You got to deal with programs. I dealt with the data I keypunched in. Isn't it true that an indication of a project being done is a neat line across the deck? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Sat, 15 Apr 00 10:48:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 78 Message-ID: <8d9qri$k24$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <38f81a3d.87469905@news.mindspring.com> X-Trace: Z4AqGlbGMX5DhtvZOSI+Jro/Gk6i4VCor1J3oFiJYXs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2000 13:29:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-55 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54197 In article <38f81a3d.87469905@news.mindspring.com>, couperusNOSPAM@mindspring.com (Jitze Couperus) wrote: >On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:57:28 GMT, jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) >wrote: > >>In <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, on 04/11/00 >> at 05:42 AM, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) said: >> >>>There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a tape in >>>opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they allow >>>enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before the tape >>>whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to be longer, >>>thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) >> >>Or a tape drive that merrily despooled all the tape onto the floor :-( >> > >The amount of tape in the vccuum column was detected by >means of multiple photo-sensors - and depending on their >state, extra tape would be fed from or taken up on the feed >and take-up reels. > >Scene - official opening of a large mainframe with 14 tape >drives in a row. > >Government Minister to cut ribbon. > >Site support analyst (me) asked to write a program >to randomly cause 14 tapes to write, backspace, rewind, >or whatever. To make it look good for TV they said. > >Program written and tested, > >All preparations checked and ready. > >TV cameras set up by local news station. Sound checks, >focusing, what have you. > >Minister arrives, delivers first part of speech. > >Tape diddling program started. > >Minister handed scissors preparatory to cutting ribbon. > >TV crew fires up their klieg lights. > >14*n photocells react to brighter than usual light - including >extra light reflected off back of vacuum columns and around >the edges of the tape. This effectively instructs all 28 >tape reel motors to open up full throttle. > >In fractions of a second, 28 vacuum columns filled up >with concertinaed tape and the excess overflows upwards >behind the glass that covers the spinning reels and >head/capstan unit. > >After maybe 5 seconds all 14 drives are hopelessly >jammed with excess tape coming out of their ears. > >News at 11.... What a wonderful Murphy's Law story. :-))) I think that's why dress rehearsals exist. JMF used to tell a story (can't remember any details save the customer site but I'm not gonna get into trouble mentioning them here). Things went so badly wrong (it had to do with the salesman demo-ing the in-house Marketing machine to a customer. Everything (that had been tested to oomph degree) went wrong. The salesman spent the day trying to smooth the presentation. Just before the saleman and the customer left, the salesman said to Jim, "Maybe they'll buy the thing if I give them a blow job on the way to the airport." The demo was that bad. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:29:48 -0400 References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-243.his.com X-Trace: 14 Apr 2000 15:29:37 -0400, pm8-243.his.com Lines: 48 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54189 In article <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: > As a practical matter, a heavy FORTRAN shop would put MAP010 > immediately after INGEN on the tape, but the same MAP010 phase > would be required by the COBOL compiler (on a binary, word-oriented > machine -- ugh!) and by some third-party compilers that used the > MAP assembler as a back-end processor (such as the Grenoble ALGOL > compiler). Our university computing center ran a mix something like this on the 7094: 70% Fortran 10% MAP (assembler) and BEFAP 10% object decks (most people compiled each time) 10% weird stuff like FORMAC, LISP, JOBSHOP Later on, AFBIC, a batch-BASIC, came along and grew to 5-10% of the machine's workload. We didn't have COBOL on our system, and I can't recall a COBOL manual or ever seeing a COBOL run. I did see one -- exactly one -- job run that called for CT, IBM's "Commercial Translator" (COBOL wannabe) product: our chief systems programmer, Al Kacala, wanted to find out if it really worked so he ran one short test-compile. It worked, and nobody ever, ever used it. On the 1401, which was a production machine (later we had several active at once), the mix was entirely different, more like: 75% object originally written in Autocoder 25% Autocoder development 5% production runs submitted in Autocoder The exception to that was that I was rather enchanted at the idea of a FORTRAN compiler with unlimited word-length, and I would occasionally dust off the FORTRAN tape and run a long-word-length problem just to watch the PROCESS light grow dim while the machine hardware-executed a 3000-digit multiply. For the record, this was the Johns Hopkins University Computing Center, at the Homewood (main) campus of the university, in the late 1960's. The JHU Applied Physics Laboratory was running multiple 7094-II's in 1966-1968, and when they acquired their 360/91 they shifted pretty much all of their workload for R&D over to that machine, and decommissioned their 7094 as quickly as they could. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:29:50 -0400 References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-243.his.com X-Trace: 14 Apr 2000 15:29:39 -0400, pm8-243.his.com Lines: 27 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54188 In article <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org>, jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) wrote: > * Lots of decks were large enough that adjacent cards were marked > at essentially the same place. Assuming that you had a single > stripe on the deck (see below), *and* the stripe appeared on > every card (also see below) you could catch card number 10 if > it was stuck in the back near card 900, but you had far less > probability of catching a mis-sequence if cards 9 and 10 > were switched. Major and minor indices: one stripe across the entire deck fromcolumn 1 through 40, roughly; and then a series of sharper-angle stripes from 40-through-80, repeated several times for each set of a few hundred cards. Worked just fine! Of course, once you moved a section of code around, it was all screwed up. I sometimes had stripes on top that no longer meant anything, and stripes on the bottom of the deck that I paid attention to. If the interpreter had 80 columns, this would not have been a big deal, but if I duped the deck and interpreted the duped deck, I could only see the first sixty characters of printing on the top line (a second interpreter pass put the next 20 on the next line, if you re-plugged the board), which was less than satisfactory. ###### From: hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 14 Apr 2000 15:24:24 -0500 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8d7upp$3fq$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawkins.cba.uni.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uni.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54211 In article <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, Julian Thomas wrote: >Or a tape drive that merrily despooled all the tape onto the floor :-( Heck, I've got a two year old that can do that :) I had to respool a tape of baby songs the other night. Hmm, I've got *two* two year olds that can do that; it's just that only one of them did it that particular time, or i'm sure the tape would have been a goner . . . hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (319) 266-7114 http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:28:13 -0500 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54175 Edward Rice wrote: > > [sinp...] [snip...] [snip...] > > For the record, this was the Johns Hopkins University Computing Center, at > the Homewood (main) campus of the university, in the late 1960's. The JHU > Applied Physics Laboratory was running multiple 7094-II's in 1966-1968, and > when they acquired their 360/91 they shifted pretty much all of their > workload for R&D over to that machine, and decommissioned their 7094 as > quickly as they could. > When I worked for General Dynamics in San Diego, CA, an aero engineer got an old simulation source listing from AFWAL (Air Force Weapons and Armaments Lab). This was an 8 1/2" by 11" xerox copy of a 15" wide listing from the '60's and in FORTRAN IV of course. But in the upper right-hand corner of each page, the original listing had a distinctive "7090" in decorative script. Did your installation use computer paper (green bar) like this with the special mark??? I wish I had a few sheets of that green bar...it was really spiffy! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 15 Apr 2000 02:43:08 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8d8kvs$21f@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54221 > installation use computer paper (green bar) like this with the special mark??? We have some coding sheets left over from our RCA Spectra machine. They have the old RCA log (lightning bolt circle), then an atomic symbol. The old logo looks very dated to be a computer logo. The atomic symbol looks odd given how out of fashion it has become. (Today the old RCA logo appears, with Nipper, ironically on music CD's. The new logo is on TVs and VCRs. Both are licensed uses as RCA no longer exists.) ###### Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:56:21 -0500 From: "Robert J. Stevens" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <8d7upp$3fq$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38f7e8da$0$19893@news.execpc.com> Organization: ExecPC Internet - Milwaukee, WI NNTP-Posting-Host: 543e8d16.news.execpc.com X-Trace: 0RW8S?BXNaRI5[332>a9Y[bfNiaEHUgJWRYcgIRLSUE]cfgf3j5FNKW?6N4N15EY<]hA;042eB`H^YdN__\LJQDUF]oQm9]^\AR X-Complaints-To: abuse@execpc.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.execpc.com!reader2-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54202 And then there's the New Modern Tapes that we all use to back up our Puter's I bought one the other day and it was already De-Spooled - a real bear to fix. Bob hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu wrote: > In article <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, > Julian Thomas wrote: > > >Or a tape drive that merrily despooled all the tape onto the floor :-( > > Heck, I've got a two year old that can do that :) I had to respool > a tape of baby songs the other night. > > Hmm, I've got *two* two year olds that can do that; it's just that only > one of them did it that particular time, or i'm sure the tape would > have been a goner . . . > > hawk > > -- > Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. > hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu > (319) 266-7114 http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk > These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer. ###### From: couperusNOSPAM@mindspring.com (Jitze Couperus) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 07:43:42 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 60 Message-ID: <38f81a3d.87469905@news.mindspring.com> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.c4.79 X-Server-Date: 15 Apr 2000 07:44:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54213 On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:57:28 GMT, jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) wrote: >In <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, on 04/11/00 > at 05:42 AM, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) said: > >>There speaks one who never saw a vacuum column tape drive pull a tape in >>opposite directions. (The vacuum columns are important -- they allow >>enough slack for the reels to get up to a fearsome speed before the tape >>whips out of the columns and goes taut. The result tends to be longer, >>thinner and somewhat less readable than one would like.) > >Or a tape drive that merrily despooled all the tape onto the floor :-( > The amount of tape in the vccuum column was detected by means of multiple photo-sensors - and depending on their state, extra tape would be fed from or taken up on the feed and take-up reels. Scene - official opening of a large mainframe with 14 tape drives in a row. Government Minister to cut ribbon. Site support analyst (me) asked to write a program to randomly cause 14 tapes to write, backspace, rewind, or whatever. To make it look good for TV they said. Program written and tested, All preparations checked and ready. TV cameras set up by local news station. Sound checks, focusing, what have you. Minister arrives, delivers first part of speech. Tape diddling program started. Minister handed scissors preparatory to cutting ribbon. TV crew fires up their klieg lights. 14*n photocells react to brighter than usual light - including extra light reflected off back of vacuum columns and around the edges of the tape. This effectively instructs all 28 tape reel motors to open up full throttle. In fractions of a second, 28 vacuum columns filled up with concertinaed tape and the excess overflows upwards behind the glass that covers the spinning reels and head/capstan unit. After maybe 5 seconds all 14 drives are hopelessly jammed with excess tape coming out of their ears. News at 11.... Jitze ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Sun, 16 Apr 00 08:15:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8dc69j$7le$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> X-Trace: 9qa8Fo59ngkbGTyn8CrilMKNb1tHVZ+eARC+2MDa0Hw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Apr 2000 10:56:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-180 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54231 In article , ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) wrote: >In article <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: > > > in FORTRAN IV of course. But in the upper right-hand corner of each >page, > > the original listing had a distinctive "7090" in decorative script. Did >your > > installation use computer paper (green bar) like this with the special >mark??? >And then there were the carbon papers -- 8.5x11 and 11x17 (full computer >pages) in two-part with carbon in the middle, 3-part, and the dreaded >6-part. That last was really hard to keep moving through the printer, >didn't stack at all well, and you had to /really/ set >the impact control on the 1403 just right or the last several >layers would be entirely illegible. Oh, I remember that! I had a job that involved making carbon copies on the 407. There was a specially made stacker and if you set up the listing just right and made sure that nobody breathed in the machine room, the stacker would separate the paper from the carbon paper and fanfold the paper. The carbon was allowed to fly out in between the fanfolded paper. What a mess. And it had to be babysat constantly. If I stopped looking at the printer, the paper flow went berserk. Maybe that's when I learned that working with computers was mostly magical incantations. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:37:02 GMT References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: HappyNet Bungalow Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!bdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54223 In article , Jay Maynard wrote: >A saying from aviation is apropos here: "There are two kinds of retractable >gear pilots: those who have landed gear-up, and those who will." The same >can be said of dropping unsequenced decks. This would've been a lot more interesting if you'd said "fixed gear pilots". -brian. -- --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- My subconscious is a whirling sea of glowing lutefisk. -- K. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:03:34 -0400 References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-193.his.com X-Trace: 16 Apr 2000 03:03:18 -0400, pm9-193.his.com Lines: 60 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.lightlink.com!news4.his.com!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54246 In article <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > in FORTRAN IV of course. But in the upper right-hand corner of each page, > the original listing had a distinctive "7090" in decorative script. Did your > installation use computer paper (green bar) like this with the special mark??? > > I wish I had a few sheets of that green bar...it was really spiffy! Nope. University, not DoD, budget. Higher education, not a billion dollar corporation. We used plain white paper, with medium-weight lines across the page every 1/2 inch (three lines, anyway -- wasn't that a half inch?). For special occasions, we also had 20-pound (somewhat sturdier than the usual) plain white paper, fairly reflective -- when someone needed to publish or distribute something, they asked for that. I was no longer a computer operator and was working elsewhere as a systems programmer, but when Victor McKusick used to run off publication copies of his first index of known chromosomes of the human genome, around 1970, that was the paper he used. Of course, for production-type users, our paper room had a scad of other papers and forms. We had crescent-shaped tape labels, half-inch standard address labels in one-up and three-up pages (all sprocket-feed, of course), 8.5-inch-by-11-inch standard USAn paper with sprockets on both sides, non-sticky labels designed to go into a special label machine, and some funny forms specially printed for bills, transcripts, course registration forms, etc. We had postcards, 8.5 by 11 card stock pre-printed with various forms, library overdue notices on 3" by 11" flimsy paper, just about anything a body could want in the way of special forms. And then there were the carbon papers -- 8.5x11 and 11x17 (full computer pages) in two-part with carbon in the middle, 3-part, and the dreaded 6-part. That last was really hard to keep moving through the printer, didn't stack at all well, and you had to /really/ set the impact control on the 1403 just right or the last several layers would be entirely illegible. The worst of all were things called "Heat Transfer" labels. This was pretty much plain paper of a special flimsiness, which we'd run through the printer with a sheet of carbon paper set /backwards/ against it. Heat transfer forms required three boxes of paper going in, and I'm not sure anybody in the history of the university OR the universe ever ran a heat transfer job without having major printer hiccups. (This was in the days before "heat death of the universe" was a common phrase, or else there'd have been some good jokes out of the disasters.) These sheets would be taken to a special machine off-campus and the carbon printing that stuck to the back of the "front" sheet of the run would be affixed to mailings using a heating process (thus the name). The other bad thing was, I had to manually de-collate all those runs, and take special care not to smear the reverse-carbon image because then the resulting labels wouldn't be usable. Oh, did I ever hate heat transfer label runs. About doubled-up (five boxes of paper and carbons going into the printer) heat transfer runs, I refuse to speak. ehr ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 17 Apr 00 11:30:13 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 80 Message-ID: <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-349.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54263 In article ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: >Nope. University, not DoD, budget. Higher education, not a billion >dollar corporation. We used plain white paper, with medium-weight >lines across the page every 1/2 inch (three lines, anyway -- wasn't >that a half inch?). Only if you were printing at 6 lines per inch. :-) I worked in a shop that printed at 8 lines per inch (which is quite readable with the proper paper), and they saved a bundle by not having to pay extortionate prices to Wright Line for exotic storage cabinets - at 8 lpi you could get two more lines on a sheet of 8 1/2-inch deep paper than you could on the standard "bedsheet format" 11x15 paper at 6 lpi (68 lines vs. 66), and you could use standard legal-size file folders, cabinets, etc. that were already abundant in your average office. I managed to convince a couple of other shops to make the switch. It also saved acres of desk space when you had to have a couple of listings open. >Of course, for production-type users, our paper room had a scad >of other papers and forms. We had crescent-shaped tape labels, >half-inch standard address labels in one-up and three-up pages >(all sprocket-feed, of course), 8.5-inch-by-11-inch standard USAn >paper with sprockets on both sides, non-sticky labels designed to >go into a special label machine, and some funny forms specially >printed for bills, transcripts, course registration forms, etc. >We had postcards, 8.5 by 11 card stock pre-printed with various >forms, library overdue notices on 3" by 11" flimsy paper, just >about anything a body could want in the way of special forms. Accounts receivable statement forms and pay cheques, both generic and ones with the customer's logo for those who were willing to pay the extra. I wrote an assembly-language hack that would find and alter the LFD name (Univac-ese for DDname, I guess) for a file, which meant that in one run we could print cheques for a dozen sites without having to define a separate file for each one. I think later I hacked even deeper into the system so we didn't even need a separate line of JCL for each form. >And then there were the carbon papers -- 8.5x11 and 11x17 (full >computer pages) in two-part with carbon in the middle, 3-part, >and the dreaded 6-part. That last was really hard to keep moving >through the printer, didn't stack at all well, and you had to >/really/ set the impact control on the 1403 just right or the >last several layers would be entirely illegible. We never dared to use 6-part paper - the most we'd do was 4. Even then, the last copy was starting to look a bit grungy. I think we would have lost more time clearing jams and re-running things on 6-part paper than we would have saved by making fewer passes through the printer. Besides, no PHB worth his salt would accept a carbon copy anyway, no matter how legible it was or how little he really needed to read it. We had a number of reports where we had to print multiple copies on 1-part because of this, even though a single pass on 3- or 4-part paper would have done the job. The ultimate PHB trick, of course, was to insist on regular copies of a 1000-page report, even though you'd just glance at the bottom line and then throw the whole thing into the recycle bin. I guess there's something gratifying in knowing that all that effort is being made on your behalf, whether you need it or not. >The worst of all were things called "Heat Transfer" labels. Urgh. Reminds me of NCR paper. I automatically assumed that NCR stood for "National Cash Register", but had a hard time figuring out just what one thing had to do with the other. It was years later that I had it explained to me that NCR in this case stood for "No Carbon Required". But from the way it smelled, it just had to be carcinogenic. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 17 Apr 2000 13:09:00 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8df2dc$mi6$1@top.mitre.org> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> <3055.139T465T11164234@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 955976940 23110 128.29.251.13 (17 Apr 2000 13:09:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 2000 13:09:00 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54264 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >After all, there was always the hard-copy listing if the worst >happened - but as anyone who's dropped a few decks knows, with >a bit of practice you can get rather good at picking it up in >the proper order, with only a few individual cards or groups >of cards to re-file according to the listing. ...the modern equivalent of which is trying to figure out how to rethread sectors on a hard disk after sombody's brain-dead program has cheerfully scribbled on both sets of FAT sectors -- on the day before the once-a-year backup of irreplacable data files. (In a previous incarnation I recall having to unscramble the hard disk on the computer that belonged to the daughter of the CEO -- she ran into a virus that wiped numerous sectors from the disk, running from the MBR through most of the root directory...) Joe Morris ###### Message-ID: <38FB372B.BEB8EB20@thinkage.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> <3055.139T465T11164234@sky.bus.com> <8d9q8b$k24$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:09:15 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 955987753 192.102.11.4 (Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:09:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:09:13 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54257 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Heh. You got to deal with programs. I dealt with the data > I keypunched in. Isn't it true that an indication of a project > being done is a neat line across the deck? Projects get done??? :-) Mine just keep evolving. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 17 Apr 00 20:19:19 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <475.142T951T12194640@sky.bus.com> References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <38fb9bcb.26266074@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-696.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54335 In article <38fb9bcb.26266074@news.shuswap.net> genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: [paper savings when printing on legal-size paper at 8 lpi] > Simon Fraser University did that. Was that you? It was indeed >much friendlier when going through a listing. No, I can't take credit for that one. Glad you liked it, though. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Tue, 18 Apr 00 10:28:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8dhmrm$p6h$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <8csinq$rmg$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8d2da4$qi0$1@top.mitre.org> <3055.139T465T11164234@sky.bus.com> <8d9q8b$k24$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <38FB372B.BEB8EB20@thinkage.ca> X-Trace: eNYIrQQeY6cwuEVpEjdbHeUEAoVaaA7j4vQ9DKCsyis= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 13:10:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-248-16 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54344 In article <38FB372B.BEB8EB20@thinkage.ca>, "Alan T. Bowler" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Heh. You got to deal with programs. I dealt with the data >> I keypunched in. Isn't it true that an indication of a project >> being done is a neat line across the deck? > >Projects get done??? :-) Mine just keep evolving. ROTFL. Good point. When you're a keypunch operator, there usually is an end to the pile. I'd have hung myself if there hadn't been ;-). Keypunching data for those forms collectors was a damn good inducement to learn how to program or some other skill. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:30:50 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 35 Message-ID: <38fb9bcb.26266074@news.shuswap.net> References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-14.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 956020973 25064 139.142.177.144 (18 Apr 2000 01:22:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 01:22:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54347 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) >writes: > >>Nope. University, not DoD, budget. Higher education, not a billion >>dollar corporation. We used plain white paper, with medium-weight >>lines across the page every 1/2 inch (three lines, anyway -- wasn't >>that a half inch?). > >Only if you were printing at 6 lines per inch. :-) I worked in a >shop that printed at 8 lines per inch (which is quite readable with >the proper paper), and they saved a bundle by not having to pay >extortionate prices to Wright Line for exotic storage cabinets - >at 8 lpi you could get two more lines on a sheet of 8 1/2-inch deep >paper than you could on the standard "bedsheet format" 11x15 paper >at 6 lpi (68 lines vs. 66), and you could use standard legal-size >file folders, cabinets, etc. that were already abundant in your >average office. I managed to convince a couple of other shops >to make the switch. It also saved acres of desk space when you >had to have a couple of listings open. Simon Fraser University did that. Was that you? It was indeed much friendlier when going through a listing. [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> Organization: Daedalus Consulting X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Message-ID: <956043993.903194@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:46:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.152.26 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 956044009 203.96.152.26 (Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:46:49 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:46:49 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54356 In article <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >Only if you were printing at 6 lines per inch. :-) I worked in a >shop that printed at 8 lines per inch (which is quite readable with >the proper paper), and they saved a bundle by not having to pay >extortionate prices to Wright Line for exotic storage cabinets - >at 8 lpi you could get two more lines on a sheet of 8 1/2-inch deep >paper than you could on the standard "bedsheet format" 11x15 paper >at 6 lpi (68 lines vs. 66), and you could use standard legal-size >file folders, cabinets, etc. that were already abundant in your >average office. I managed to convince a couple of other shops >to make the switch. It also saved acres of desk space when you >had to have a couple of listings open. When I was (briefly) a poor student, I made sure the varsity printers I used printed on the goldbar side of the 8.5x15" paper they were fed with, then took the listings I made home and fed the individual sheets sideways through my trusty Epson 80 column printer, printing on the white side. -- don ###### From: Deborah Gronke Bennett Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 18 Apr 2000 17:14:50 -0700 Organization: Sun Microsystems, Microelectronics Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <8csia3$5lm$1@top.mitre.org> <38F29481.CC7404AC@earthlink.net> <955431752.34245@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <38f76a16$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <38f81a3d.87469905@news.mindspring.com> <8d9qri$k24$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mayfield.eng.sun.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!denver-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!namche.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54387 > >On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:57:28 GMT, jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) > >wrote: > > [snip] > >Minister arrives, delivers first part of speech. > > > >Tape diddling program started. > > > >Minister handed scissors preparatory to cutting ribbon. > > > >TV crew fires up their klieg lights. > > > >14*n photocells react to brighter than usual light - including > >extra light reflected off back of vacuum columns and around > >the edges of the tape. This effectively instructs all 28 > >tape reel motors to open up full throttle. > > > >In fractions of a second, 28 vacuum columns filled up > >with concertinaed tape and the excess overflows upwards > >behind the glass that covers the spinning reels and > >head/capstan unit. > > > >After maybe 5 seconds all 14 drives are hopelessly > >jammed with excess tape coming out of their ears. > > An early prototype of the Sun 4/490 (codename Galaxy) had an incredible shortage of working CPU chips. The story I heard is that there were only 3 chips which worked from a certain early lot, and because there was some mixup with the package dimensions, the actual chips, attached to the little gold wires, were physically outside of the package unit (hanging in midair) and had no protective windows over them. The engineering group managed to boot UNIX on one of these boxes, and wanted to commemorate the occasion with a picture. The flash in the camera caused enough current in the exposed chip to melt the little gold wires, and also blow up one of the only three precious chips available. The sign on the lab door got amended to No food No drinks No flash photography ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:10:10 -0400 References: <8cjjp9$bpo@netaxs.com> <38EE63D5.EB478106@cfht.hawaii.edu> <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-194.his.com X-Trace: 21 Apr 2000 18:10:08 -0400, pm9-194.his.com Lines: 51 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54553 In article <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > Only if you were printing at 6 lines per inch. :-) I worked in a > shop that printed at 8 lines per inch (which is quite readable with > the proper paper), and they saved a bundle by not having to pay > extortionate prices to Wright Line for exotic storage cabinets - > at 8 lpi you could get two more lines on a sheet of 8 1/2-inch deep > paper than you could on the standard "bedsheet format" 11x15 paper > at 6 lpi (68 lines vs. 66), and you could use standard legal-size Well, we did 8 LPI work, too. That was mostly an issue of carriage control tapes (about which the newsgroup has spoken at length in the past) and flipping a lever inside the 1401. Surely, you mean 88 lines/page at 8 LPI, versus 66 at 6 LPI? And 11"x17" dimensions for the "bedsheet" paper? > Urgh. Reminds me of NCR paper. I automatically assumed that NCR > stood for "National Cash Register", but had a hard time figuring > out just what one thing had to do with the other. It was years > later that I had it explained to me that NCR in this case stood > for "No Carbon Required". But from the way it smelled, it just > had to be carcinogenic. Uh... so far as I know, "NCR" paper was invented by the National Cash Register people, so that their registers could retain a copy of the transaction tape while another copy was given to the customer. Or am I being hauled out of the water splashing, having bitten on a hook you set out for my dinner? Nobody's mentioned a decollator. (Pronounced, roughly, DECK-ul-ay-ter, not de-COLL-ayt-er.) These were strictly Unit Record gear, not computing gear, so they came from companies like UARCO and Moore, not IBM. You fed multi-part carbon into one side, and they split out the parts as the paper passed through. We didn't have one at the Homewood Computing Center, but there was one that the J.H. Hospital used that I got to play with downtown, at my next place-of-employment. We also had, perhaps one in each place, a burster. Bursters were mostly used for single-part paper, or for de-collated output from the decollator. You'd set the paper length just so (or start swearing just after turning it on), and it would pass the continuous forms (which could still have carbon and Nth-copy sheets included, if you were brave) through, giving the paper a loud SNAP as each set of perforations between pages passed by. If all went well and the Paper Gods were pleased, you ended up with all your sheets broken apart, in a tidy stack, facing the same way, split at the perfs and not everywhere in between, and an /amazed/ look on anybody else in the unit record room. But most of the time, a certain amount of swearing happened instead. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,comp.sys.dec,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: light bulbs for DEC front panels References: <8dtj3n$fse@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <39025B02.7A199BA6@jetnet.ab.ca> <39025E73.A421B816@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 24 Apr 2000 14:49:55 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 24 Apr 2000 14:49:57 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54734 Ben Franchuk writes: > I knew I saw some bulbs somewhere. About $.33 each. > > http://www.jameco.com/cfm/detail.cfm?sub_class_code=2G1&name=LEDs%20and%20Lamps Good find. That one is 5V, 60mA, 25000 hour. Unfortunately they don't have the 15V ones, so I guess I'll have to pay more for them. But since DEC is selling the official part for $2, that's at least an upper bound on what I'll have to pay. Eric ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 24 Apr 00 23:57:48 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 67 Message-ID: <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-232.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54696 In article ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: >In article <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com>, >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > > > Only if you were printing at 6 lines per inch. :-) I worked in a > > shop that printed at 8 lines per inch (which is quite readable with > > the proper paper), and they saved a bundle by not having to pay > > extortionate prices to Wright Line for exotic storage cabinets - > > at 8 lpi you could get two more lines on a sheet of 8 1/2-inch deep > > paper than you could on the standard "bedsheet format" 11x15 paper > > at 6 lpi (68 lines vs. 66), and you could use standard legal-size > >Well, we did 8 LPI work, too. That was mostly an issue of carriage >control tapes (about which the newsgroup has spoken at length in the >past) and flipping a lever inside the 1401. Surely, you mean 88 >lines/page at 8 LPI, versus 66 at 6 LPI? And 11"x17" dimensions >for the "bedsheet" paper? Maybe you're thinking of the big 11x17 paper that some photocopiers can handle these days: the next step up from 8 1/2 x 11 as you double the area of a sheet. The computer forms I worked with were typically 15 inches wide, which made sense: 132 characters at 10 characters per inch, plus half an inch on each side for the sprocket holes, plus a bit for margins. What we did was replace 11x15 paper at 6 lpi (which gave 66 lines per page) with 8 1/2 x 15 paper at 8 lpi (which gave 68 lines per page and was much easier to file). > > Urgh. Reminds me of NCR paper. I automatically assumed that NCR > > stood for "National Cash Register", but had a hard time figuring > > out just what one thing had to do with the other. It was years > > later that I had it explained to me that NCR in this case stood > > for "No Carbon Required". But from the way it smelled, it just > > had to be carcinogenic. > >Uh... so far as I know, "NCR" paper was invented by the National Cash >Register people, so that their registers could retain a copy of the >transaction tape while another copy was given to the customer. Or am >I being hauled out of the water splashing, having bitten on a hook you >set out for my dinner? To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure. I think I heard from my wife, who worked in print shops, that to them NCR stood for "No Carbon Required". Whether this was an official term or not, I can't say. And the paper could well have been invented by NCR. [snipped comments on decollators and bursters] They were fun, weren't they. How often did you see multi-part forms not separate cleanly in a decollator, so that forms and carbon paper would start winding up in huge balls? Bursters were fun too. We had one run that would print on file cards. They sounded like a machine gun going through the burster. The really deluxe models would strip the sprocket holes off the sides at the same time. My theory is that the perfs between pages strengthen the paper so that it tears down the middle of the page instead. :-) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: "The Bakers" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:32:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.240.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 956705557 12.79.240.121 (Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:32:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:32:37 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54771 Charlie Gibbs wrote in message news:3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com... > To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure. I think I heard from my > wife, who worked in print shops, that to them NCR stood for "No Carbon > Required". Whether this was an official term or not, I can't say. > And the paper could well have been invented by NCR. > I believe that the "Systemedia" division of National Cash Register was the corporate entity which took care of 'NCR' paper products, etc. ###### From: cpkc@datanet.ab.ca (Colin Campbell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 04:58:06 GMT Message-ID: <39067664.1531370@news.datanet.ab.ca> References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.20.151 X-Trace: 25 Apr 2000 21:37:42 -0700, 207.153.20.151 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.oanet.com!207.153.20.151 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54769 On 24 Apr 00 23:57:48 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" gave forth: >[snipped comments on decollators and bursters] > > >My theory is that the perfs between pages strengthen the paper so that >it tears down the middle of the page instead. :-) > >-- You might ponder the following: A perforation consists of a bit of paper followed by a bit of nothing, then a bit of paper and so on for the desired length. Given that the paper tears first, we seem to have shown that nothing is stronger than paper. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> <39067664.1531370@news.datanet.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:01:38 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 956761432 129.85.24.56 (Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:03:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:03:52 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54821 On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 04:58:06 GMT, cpkc@datanet.ab.ca (Colin Campbell) wrote: >On 24 Apr 00 23:57:48 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" gave >forth: > > >>[snipped comments on decollators and bursters] >> > >> >>My theory is that the perfs between pages strengthen the paper so that >>it tears down the middle of the page instead. :-) >> >>-- >You might ponder the following: > A perforation consists of a bit of paper followed by a bit of nothing, >then a bit of paper and so on for the desired length. Given that the >paper tears first, we seem to have shown that nothing is stronger than >paper. Also Charlie's theory jibes with this old Russian joke: There was a time when Soviet-made planes started having strange mechanical problem - their wings will break at exactly the same line on each plane, and nobody could find why or how to fix it. Finally, a popular contest was announced, and every idea, however silly sounded, was tried. The winner was an old Jew who suggested making a line of perforations along the break line. When asked how he came to the idea, he said that he noticed it first with toilet paper: it _never_ tears along perforations ;-) [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:15:38 -0400 References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm11-155.his.com X-Trace: 26 Apr 2000 14:15:21 -0400, pm11-155.his.com Lines: 51 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!192.168.1.3!news1.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54803 In article <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >lines/page at 8 LPI, versus 66 at 6 LPI? And 11"x17" dimensions > >for the "bedsheet" paper? > > Maybe you're thinking of the big 11x17 paper that some photocopiers > can handle these days: the next step up from 8 1/2 x 11 as you > double the area of a sheet. The computer forms I worked with were > typically 15 inches wide... I just checked -- 11x15 it is. So what was "bedsheet" that someone mentioned? > What we did was replace 11x15 paper at 6 lpi (which gave 66 lines per > page) with 8 1/2 x 15 paper at 8 lpi (which gave 68 lines per page > and was much easier to file). Ah, I got it now. Yes, that was a nice solution. I preferred the larger print, larger spaces when I was doing layout work, though -- making columns line up or tables look perfect always seemed easier when the characters were more distant. > To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure. I think I heard from my > wife, who worked in print shops, that to them NCR stood for "No Carbon > Required". Whether this was an official term or not, I can't say. > And the paper could well have been invented by NCR. See, among other links: http://www.paperhall.org/inductees/bios/96/busch.html I've sent a query to NCR itself, to ask whether the "NCR" stood for the company name, the marketing slogan, or possibly both. I also asked another company or two on the web. http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/bytopic/repro/nadeau1.html #45 1953 CARBONLESS PAPER* Transfer, chemical type, produced by Appleton Coated Paper for NCR. (NHPR 413a). This often produced a purple image. Mostly used for multiple-copy business forms. 3M's "Action" line of papers, introduced in 1963, seems to have jump-started the popularity of the product, however. I can't imagine 3M (then the Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Company) having used the "No Carbon Required" slogan or calling it "NCR paper", though -- talk about anti-advertising! ###### From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Message-ID: References: <8csk1i$64a$1@top.mitre.org> <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> Organization: ErsteSoft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:46:45 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.103.86.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: news.swbell.net 956817941 216.103.86.8 (Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:45:41 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:45:41 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!news.swbell.net.POSTED!hnsngr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54899 In article <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > What we did was replace 11x15 paper at 6 lpi (which gave 66 lines per > page) with 8 1/2 x 15 paper at 8 lpi (which gave 68 lines per page > and was much easier to file). At our shop, we cut the paper size from 11x15 (actually 11 by 14 7/8) to 8 1/2 by 14 7/8, but kept to 6 lines per inch. That reduced the number of lines per page from 66 to 51. After allowing for the page break, the number of printable lines per page went from 62 to 48. To make forms fit right, we took advantage of the fact the most of the report writing programs happened to have the following line of code: 77 SIXTY-TWO PIC 99 COMP VA 62. All other line calculations were derived from that, so it was a simple matter to change the line to: 77 SIXTY-TWO PIC 99 COMP VA 48. The change actually happened before I got there, but that was the explanation I got for why every program in the shop seemed to define 62 as 48. -Ron Hunsinger ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: 27 Apr 00 09:01:34 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1039.152T1711T5414584@sky.bus.com> References: <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-152.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54944 In article ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) writes: >In article <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com>, >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > > > >lines/page at 8 LPI, versus 66 at 6 LPI? And 11"x17" dimensions > > >for the "bedsheet" paper? > > > > Maybe you're thinking of the big 11x17 paper that some photocopiers > > can handle these days: the next step up from 8 1/2 x 11 as you > > double the area of a sheet. The computer forms I worked with were > > typically 15 inches wide... > >I just checked -- 11x15 it is. So what was "bedsheet" that someone >mentioned? That was just me ranting. Open a couple of 11x15 listings on your desk and you don't have room left for anything else. Those things covered your desk like, well, bedsheets. (And then your phone rings and you have to first find it, then figure out a way to pick up the receiver without sending everything crashing to the floor...) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch Card Computers Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:38:19 -0700 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 20 Message-ID: <390A916C.C377A146@dallas.net> References: <38F7A98D.2D3A6316@plano.net> <3945.142T654T6903887@sky.bus.com> <3107.149T2445T14375398@sky.bus.com> <1039.152T1711T5414584@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: richmond@dallas.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54912 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > [snip..] [snip..] [snip...] > > That was just me ranting. Open a couple of 11x15 listings on your > desk and you don't have room left for anything else. Those things > covered your desk like, well, bedsheets. > Think of the 11x15 listings as a desk pad. They cover up the surface of your desk, and you can make all the notes you want on them. From the listings I have worked with in the past, there was ample space remaining for notes and added code to be written right there on the listing. Then you take your listing back with you to the computer center, and there is the new code to be punched up...right at the spot on the listing where it should be inserted... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+