From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:30:54 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-dFJjE1f/oDk610WhY+etFC5HwTlCnZPgAjf1CPy2EGlIuP1eSpJwbDIsqADFT9s0zuae3yoff/o647S!/Tc5A4DpjJRqABI6zepssg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:30:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50196 On 22 Feb 2000 15:59:34 -0600, Caveman wrote: >On an unrelated topic, one wonders why modern computers are so >nondescript. Million dollar disk arrays in plain cabinets with no >external blinkenlights. Perhaps it's silly, but there's a certain human >comfort in watching the lights blink, "knowing" that something is >happening in there. Whether that something is productive is another >matter, of course. Compaq's disk arrays, both the older tray models and the new universal metal carrier models, have blinkenlights for drive activity, as well as drive configured and drive failed, easily visible from the front. (The latter two only work with Compaq array controllers, but disk activity is taken straight from the drive's activity light connection.) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Message-ID: <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.07 c06 Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:05:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 951332701 199.224.125.63 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:05:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:05:01 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50239 In , on 02/22/00 at 10:30 PM, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) said: >On 22 Feb 2000 15:59:34 -0600, Caveman wrote: >On >an unrelated topic, one wonders why modern computers are so >nondescript. >Million dollar disk arrays in plain cabinets with no >external >blinkenlights. Perhaps it's silly, but there's a certain human >comfort >in watching the lights blink, "knowing" that something is >happening in >there. Whether that something is productive is another >matter, of >course. Way back when we called it "pinball effect". -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org WarpTech 2000: May 26-28 in Phoenix - plan NOW to attend! www.warptech.org -- -- Windows the Roach Motel of Software: Bugs check in, never check out. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:24:30 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-BDNV2qlMkgLhI2dgXfq1bzxowBee9mogjCBnI9BgesPDnt0K7v8MuF3JvFXupZQSHJj11cmHI5WUtgf!mYCctarvWbP/0RW5/KEQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:24:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50261 On Thu, 24 Feb 00 13:30:16 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >when we had terminals in our offices away from the machines, >one could get pretty good at figuring out trouble based on >the hesitation :-). Only those familiar with timesharing >are going to understand this one. Yeah. For a while when I was doing MVS for a living, the oerators would wait for about 3 minutes before calling me with a system lockup - by then, either it'd resolve itself, or else I'd be in the machine room already... ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 13:30:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Trace: tcnsYM8Efm/LgcPcdRII+erdEuizXLP4eNUKi4MYTOA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2000 15:02:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-147 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50276 In article <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) wrote: >In , on 02/22/00 > at 10:30 PM, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) said: > >>On 22 Feb 2000 15:59:34 -0600, Caveman wrote: >On >>an unrelated topic, one wonders why modern computers are so >nondescript. >>Million dollar disk arrays in plain cabinets with no >external >>blinkenlights. Perhaps it's silly, but there's a certain human >comfort >>in watching the lights blink, "knowing" that something is >happening in >>there. Whether that something is productive is another >matter, of >>course. > >Way back when we called it "pinball effect". > I've never heard that one. I certainly could tell by the lights and clatters if the system was in trouble. Later, when we had terminals in our offices away from the machines, one could get pretty good at figuring out trouble based on the hesitation :-). Only those familiar with timesharing are going to understand this one. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Rick Lugg" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:58:08 +0200 Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 32 Message-ID: <895g62$bi1$1@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rsb53-01-p86.gt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp1.saix.net 951469058 11841 155.239.84.86 (25 Feb 2000 08:57:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:57:38 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ctb-nntp1!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50349 The Elliott systems that we sold in the UK as NCR 4100, had a speaker that made various noises as programs ran. We got quite good at recognising the sounds when object program tapes were being written at the end of compiles etc. Only then would we need to look up from Monopoly, scrabble or cards. We found that by dialling the extension of the console phone, leaving the line open and putting the ops room phone in an empty filing cabinet, we could amplify the sound sufficiently to be able to get on with our entertainment while the computer got on with its! -- Rick Lugg "Jay Maynard" wrote in message news:slrn8bajbf.8ck.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx... > On Thu, 24 Feb 00 13:30:16 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >when we had terminals in our offices away from the machines, > >one could get pretty good at figuring out trouble based on > >the hesitation :-). Only those familiar with timesharing > >are going to understand this one. > > Yeah. For a while when I was doing MVS for a living, the oerators would wait > for about 3 minutes before calling me with a system lockup - by then, either > it'd resolve itself, or else I'd be in the machine room already... ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 09:42:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: 7WqAiXOYxuZ1vo04hLxdEm763i2Av81vi6plgJaelgg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 11:15:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-129 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50340 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >On Thu, 24 Feb 00 13:30:16 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>when we had terminals in our offices away from the machines, >>one could get pretty good at figuring out trouble based on >>the hesitation :-). Only those familiar with timesharing >>are going to understand this one. > >Yeah. For a while when I was doing MVS for a living, >the oerators would wait for about 3 minutes before >calling me with a system lockup - by then, either >it'd resolve itself, or else I'd be in the machine room already... And did they think you were a god because you "read" their minds? :-) Or were they savvy operators? JMF's first job at DEC in 1970 was the project to get all kinds of computers to talk to each other at Oakridge. His job was the PDP-10 side. One time they had a problem (I can't recall the details of the problem). They tried debugging; they tried patches to catch the problem; they tried praying; they tried sacrificing virgins..not really but they were getting that desperate. They thought it was a hardware problem but field service couldn't find that out either. The project was in serious trouble. Then a stranger came in the middle of the night. Rumor had it that he had flown in from Maynard. Jim tells the story that this guy walked into the machine room, did a tweak, and walked out...never to be seen again. The problem went away and the project was successful. He said that he never knew the guy's name nor ever saw him again. I'm not sure I believe that but it makes for a fine story about magicians. [I'm going to break my rule and x-post this to the PDP-10 newsgroup.] /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 09:33:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <895nmk$p5j$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895g62$bi1$1@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net> X-Trace: PS+a6eotngCwnTUd20z/Oh0aW5RUZAmaxtNthP8LkXw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 11:05:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-129 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50346 In article <895g62$bi1$1@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net>, "Rick Lugg" wrote: >The Elliott systems that we sold in the UK as NCR 4100, had a speaker that >made various noises as programs ran. > >We got quite good at recognising the sounds when object program tapes were >being written at the end of compiles etc. Only then would we need to look >up from Monopoly, scrabble or cards. > >We found that by dialling the extension of the console phone, leaving the >line open and putting the ops room phone in an empty filing cabinet, we >could amplify the sound sufficiently to be able to get on with our >entertainment while the computer got on with its! > What a neat idea! Too bad there wasn't stereo :-) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:22:43 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-EjQwr9wqdXCt069HKYV2kwqS8DDJ8BO7+hhZicw9ouqc/Y1DtIlaZ46niyB9gItx83h2OcNrji85u5L!J6K92oUUkOg1Z70vRrcISQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:22:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50330 On Fri, 25 Feb 00 09:42:58 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >And did they think you were a god because you "read" their >minds? :-) Or were they savvy operators? Actually, it was easy to tell which operators had two clues to rub together, in part by this distinction... You should have seen the look on the operations manager's face one day when I walked into the machine room with screwdriver and soldering iron in hand, though...he retired early a couple of years later on medical disability for a heart condition, and he used to joke that I gave it to him... >I'm not sure I believe that but it makes for a fine story >about magicians. It does indeed... ###### From: Tony Wingo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Organization: not much References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:05:18 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.33.124.150 X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 951595504 232 207.33.124.150 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50478 In article <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JMF's first job at DEC in 1970 was the project to get all kinds >of computers to talk to each other at Oakridge. His job was >the PDP-10 side. One time they had a problem (I can't recall >the details of the problem). They tried debugging; they tried >patches to catch the problem; they tried praying; they tried >sacrificing virgins..not really but they were getting that >desperate. They thought it was a hardware problem but field >service couldn't find that out either. The project was in >serious trouble. > >Then a stranger came in the middle of the night. Rumor had >it that he had flown in from Maynard. Jim tells the story >that this guy walked into the machine room, did a tweak, >and walked out...never to be seen again. The problem >went away and the project was successful. He said that >he never knew the guy's name nor ever saw him again. I'm >not sure I believe that but it makes for a fine story >about magicians. > When I was working on PDP-10's in the early 70's in Washington DC there were stories circulating about a legendary DEC field service guy whose MO was as follows: He'd come in, ask some questions, poke around at the operators panel for a few minutes. Then he'd walk over to one of the boxes, open it up, put a chair down in front of it, sit in the chair backwards with his arms on the back, staring into the box. After meditating in this manner for anywhere from ten minutes to an hour and a half he's get up, make one tweak or replace one card (in the box he'd opened), and _voila_ everything would work again. Maybe it was the same guy... -t ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 From: Terry Kennedy Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) X-Complaints-To: Email abuse@spc.edu if this posting is inappropriate User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (BSD/OS/4.1 (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.tmk.com Organization: St. Peter's College, US Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: spcuna.spc.edu 951597986 7354 terry [204.141.35.61] Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:46:27 GMT Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.new-york.net!news.spc.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50461 In alt.folklore.computers Tony Wingo wrote: > When I was working on PDP-10's in the early 70's in Washington DC there > were stories circulating about a legendary DEC field service guy whose > MO was as follows: He'd come in, ask some questions, poke around at the > operators panel for a few minutes. Then he'd walk over to one of the > boxes, open it up, put a chair down in front of it, sit in the chair > backwards with his arms on the back, staring into the box. After > meditating in this manner for anywhere from ten minutes to an hour and a > half he's get up, make one tweak or replace one card (in the box he'd > opened), and _voila_ everything would work again. At a former job I had a IBM 3138 processor (370/138). It started getting an error where it would claim "irrecoverable I/O error" and the sense data would be all *'s (meaning that no error was detected). My usual IBM service guys (Bob and Leon) came out and couldn't find anything. The next day, they came back with a third guy (Dick) who was wearing a flannel shirt, jeans, and hiking boots. I said "They called you back from vacation, huh?" (since IBM had a strict dress code) and he said "No, I'm good enough I can dress like this". Dick figured out that if he kicked a particular place on the CPU cabinet, the error would happen, but reseating all the cards in that area had no effect. Late afternoon, Bob, Leon, and Dick had a huddle and said things like "Should we call *him*?" "You know what *he's* like" "But the customer has been down for 3 days now". They said they were going to have someone else come in tomorrow, and to not say *anything* if I thought anything odd was going on. The next day, my 3 techs are there and this other guy walks in. He's wearing a suit that might have been stylish in the late 50's (this was the early 80's) and a matching tie, and this guy has red patches all over. He really looked like he was taken out of a tub of formaldehyde or something. He goes over to the front panel, looks at some lights, and says "Dammit! I told her to fix that!". Next, he dials in some numbers on the console switches and pushes "set address and display". Dick says "Y'know, you can do that on the console CRT" (the 3138 had both lights-and-switches and a soft console - some other 370's only had one or the other). The odd-looking guy says "I never trusted the guy who wrote the console microcode - he was a Commie!". After a few more sets of displays, he goes around to the other side of the CPU from where Dick was kicking it, grabbed a tri-lead (an odd sort of flat coax ribbon cable IBM used) and ripped it off the backplane. He then said "change this, it'll work" and turned and pointed at Leon and said "You! Take me to the airport, I need to go to Saudi Arabia". After Leon and the odd guy left, I asked Bob and Dick who the hell that was. Bob said "That was the guy who designed the 138". Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 00 10:12:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: mqYJKgC8KoKBwnRDj+inPj+aVTkk4Oe7iGMem4ibeBI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2000 11:45:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-253 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50467 In article , Tony Wingo wrote: >In article <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> >>JMF's first job at DEC in 1970 was the project to get all kinds >>of computers to talk to each other at Oakridge. His job was >>the PDP-10 side. One time they had a problem (I can't recall >>the details of the problem). They tried debugging; they tried >>patches to catch the problem; they tried praying; they tried >>sacrificing virgins..not really but they were getting that >>desperate. They thought it was a hardware problem but field >>service couldn't find that out either. The project was in >>serious trouble. >> >>Then a stranger came in the middle of the night. Rumor had >>it that he had flown in from Maynard. Jim tells the story >>that this guy walked into the machine room, did a tweak, >>and walked out...never to be seen again. The problem >>went away and the project was successful. He said that >>he never knew the guy's name nor ever saw him again. I'm >>not sure I believe that but it makes for a fine story >>about magicians. >> > >When I was working on PDP-10's in the early 70's in Washington DC there >were stories circulating about a legendary DEC field service guy whose >MO was as follows: He'd come in, ask some questions, poke around at the >operators panel for a few minutes. Then he'd walk over to one of the >boxes, open it up, put a chair down in front of it, sit in the chair >backwards with his arms on the back, staring into the box. After >meditating in this manner for anywhere from ten minutes to an hour and a >half he's get up, make one tweak or replace one card (in the box he'd >opened), and _voila_ everything would work again. > >Maybe it was the same guy... Yup. It sure does sound like him :-). One of the reasons I liked working at DEC was I could watch artists do their thing. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> From: HerbalGypsy/justbobthebard Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net Organization: The Keltic League X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 62 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:09:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.39.168 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 951707390 138.88.39.168 (Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:09:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:09:50 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50556 Ok, my story...about a legendary guy in DEC field service. He worked in NJ/NY. I thought he was from Princeton. I was sent down from Maynard to help him at Murray Hill after the first Bell 208 modem prototypes melted down after being hooked to a PDP8e. I worked with him on a few problems beside that one, and at every shop, the customers called him by different names. I called him on this, he said that it really did not matter, As long as you were polite and the machine worked when you left, nobody ever remembered your name but if you screwed one up.... jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > Tony Wingo wrote: > >In article <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >> > >>JMF's first job at DEC in 1970 was the project to get all kinds > >>of computers to talk to each other at Oakridge. His job was > >>the PDP-10 side. One time they had a problem (I can't recall > >>the details of the problem). They tried debugging; they tried > >>patches to catch the problem; they tried praying; they tried > >>sacrificing virgins..not really but they were getting that > >>desperate. They thought it was a hardware problem but field > >>service couldn't find that out either. The project was in > >>serious trouble. > >> > >>Then a stranger came in the middle of the night. Rumor had > >>it that he had flown in from Maynard. Jim tells the story > >>that this guy walked into the machine room, did a tweak, > >>and walked out...never to be seen again. The problem > >>went away and the project was successful. He said that > >>he never knew the guy's name nor ever saw him again. I'm > >>not sure I believe that but it makes for a fine story > >>about magicians. > >> > > > >When I was working on PDP-10's in the early 70's in Washington DC there > >were stories circulating about a legendary DEC field service guy whose > >MO was as follows: He'd come in, ask some questions, poke around at the > >operators panel for a few minutes. Then he'd walk over to one of the > >boxes, open it up, put a chair down in front of it, sit in the chair > >backwards with his arms on the back, staring into the box. After > >meditating in this manner for anywhere from ten minutes to an hour and a > >half he's get up, make one tweak or replace one card (in the box he'd > >opened), and _voila_ everything would work again. > > > >Maybe it was the same guy... > > Yup. It sure does sound like him :-). One of the reasons > I liked working at DEC was I could watch artists do their > thing. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:08:09 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.143.85 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.143.85 X-Trace: 28 Feb 2000 03:08:10 -0700, 207.148.143.85 Lines: 66 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!news.idt.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.143.85 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50596 On 27 Feb 2000 22:35:04 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Unfortunately, the legendary DEC field service guy I remember from the >late-70s in Seattle was on the opposite end of the scale. I won't >give his name, but this one guy: > >- got so excited when telling a friend of mine about the self-parking > heads on the new disk drive that he shut off the circuit breaker to > demonstrate. The heads didn't park, and my friend described a cloud > of red dust blowing out the back of the drive (yes, DEC replaced > it). > >- Opened up a VAX 11/730 and pulled all the cages out -- without > without pulling out the stabilizer in front first. Right over on > its face. > >- Diagnosed a failed power supply in a DEC-20 without considering that > there might have been an underlying cause, and replaced it with the > only spare on the west coast. Which promptly died. > >There was a site at the University of Washington that kept this guy's >schedule posted, and if the machine went down when he was on duty >they'd wait until he was off before calling it in. I never met any like that in Scotland: most seemed to be ex-service vets who could shoot and replace at component level with a meter and scope. But I met a few when I came to Canada (GIA). A site I used to work at had a head crash on an RM05 (CDC OEM 20 heads/drive), so we called it in for head replacement. Remember that metallic smell of friction oxidized aluminum that you could smell as soon as you walked in a computer room, even with a couple of 20 ton units moving air? The guy they sent out couldn't smell it. We told him which drive was toast. He didn't believe us. He told us he was the expert and he would find out what was really wrong with the drive. He then proceeded to mount the diagnostic pack in the crashed drive. When it wouldn't boot, he moved the diagnostic pack to the other 4 drives on the system in turn. We were down for a week while DEC sourced heads from all over North America. Can't remember if he was the one who spent the week installing and aligning 100 heads in 5 drives. Don't think he was allowed back on the site after that. Had a similar experience with the ever hot and stressed 11/70 MMUs (KM-11?) which tended to be failure prone when you ran systems at 90% CPU for 12 hours/day, 5 days/week, months on end. We called in a system failure with MMU suspected. The expert came in and told us to clear the computer room, while he and his team diagnosed the problem. Three days later, they replaced the MMU! OTOH, most DEC FS staff I met were competent and confident enough to listen to what our staff told them, and check out parts we suggested might be a problem, before going the full system exerciser route. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 28 Feb 2000 11:29:08 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 7 Message-ID: <89dm64$gt3$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 951737348 17315 134.117.136.30 (28 Feb 2000 11:29:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2000 11:29:08 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50563 Joe Pfeiffer (pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu) writes: > Unfortunately, the legendary DEC field service guy I remember from the > late-70s in Seattle was on the opposite end of the scale. I won't > give his name, but this one guy: - should have his exploits posted to rec.humor judging by the pain in my laugh muscles. ###### From: mdeen@xs4.xs4all.nl (Maarten Deen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 28 Feb 2000 12:40:36 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, Networking for the masses Lines: 63 Message-ID: <89dmrk$gct$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xs4.xs4all.nl X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 951738038 17711 194.109.6.45 (28 Feb 2000 11:40:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2000 11:40:38 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!xs4.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50504 Brian Inglis writes: >On 27 Feb 2000 22:35:04 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer > wrote: >OTOH, most DEC FS staff I met were competent and confident enough >to listen to what our staff told them, and check out parts we >suggested might be a problem, before going the full system >exerciser route. I believe the DEC FS engineers that start talking about their RPG's do belong to those. The other one's ere those that... At our customers we always install DEC^h^higi^h^h^h^hCompaq machines to run our applications on. These applications are an SQL database and our own set of memory and CPU intensive applications. They are used to run an automated pick-by-light warehouse. At one of our customers we have 2 4100's, both with a diskarray. The array is software shadowed (yes, our mistake) and all disks have a label stuck to the housing to be able to identify them. One of the disks went bad. We exactly knew which, because our logfiles pointed it out. 'show dev dk' showed it, and the disk label (which was stuck to to the housing of the disk) led you to the right disk (where the error light was blinking). Apparently this was not enough for our FSE. He did his own checks. Well, tried to, because of the software shadowing, he couldn't find out which disk was faulty ('I'm a hardware FSE', he explained). After pointing out to him that 'show dev dk' gave him the info he needed, he continued. FSE: 'Can you shutdown the systems?' we: 'Rather not. It's a pain, we need them and we want to annoy you. anyway, the drives are hotpluggable and hotswappable, aren't they?' FSE: 'Y..e..s.. but... what if something happens?' we: 'Tough break, innit?' The FSE continued (mind you, 'we' were not on site. All conversation went by phone. The customer was on site, but knew diddly about these machines). The FSE did his thing and went home. Because he needed 5 hours for this, we already left for our beds and took his actions for granted (our relationship with the customer wasn't that good before we did this). Next morning, all hell broke loose. Nothing worked in our system. Upon closer inspection, both sides of the drive in the shadowset of which one had gone bad were dismounted. We tried to mount the good one. Didn't work. We phoned our customer for physical inspection of the disk cabinets. We weren't surprised to find out that the FSE took out the working disk, and left the site with the most important disk of all. The disk containing the layout of the warehouse and current location of all stock. The rest of the day was spent in search of our FSE. He didn't show up before late afternoon. We've had a history of FSE claiming to be software FSE and the problem is a hardware one, or claiming to be hardware FSE and the problem is a software one. Most problems would have taken half an hour to fix, even if we did it ourself, but that's not why you have a service contract. Maarten Deen ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <89dmrk$gct$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:46:55 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.70.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 951744752 194.168.70.115 (Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:32:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:32:32 GMT Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50500 "Maarten Deen" wrote in message news:89dmrk$gct$1@xs4.xs4all.nl... > Brian Inglis writes: > > >On 27 Feb 2000 22:35:04 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer > > wrote: > > >OTOH, most DEC FS staff I met were competent and confident enough > >to listen to what our staff told them, and check out parts we > >suggested might be a problem, before going the full system > >exerciser route. > > I believe the DEC FS engineers that start talking about their RPG's > do belong to those. The other one's ere those that... > > At our customers we always install DEC^h^higi^h^h^h^hCompaq machines to > run our applications on. These applications are an SQL database and our > own set of memory and CPU intensive applications. They are used to > run an automated pick-by-light warehouse. > Reminds me of a FSE for a UK Compaq reseller, who on swapping out the motherboard of one machine managed to wipe the contents of the entire RAID array. I spent 8 hours on the telephone telling him how to reinstall the OS on that machine. And I was the one who diagnosed the motherboard fault. This FSE hadn't a clue what was wrong, even though the machine was suffering from sporadic memory corruption, yet the memory had been replaced. I only got to tell him as I was in the area at the time. The only tools he appeared to have was a floppy disk containing a really obsolete DOS diagnostic program, itself over 5 years old. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 12:54:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <89e0k8$oj2$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89du7t$r75$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <89dvpg$1bg8$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> X-Trace: +yBaNcCdIIdOJ/oLndw2HlyB/0BwG1x1sF3n2Tigcgs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2000 14:27:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-190 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50519 In article <89dvpg$1bg8$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) wrote: >In article <89du7t$r75$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, > dkw@hera.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg) writes: > >> ...After no more than three minutes of >> this going on, in total silence, he stalks over to one of the cabinets >> -- pulls the door open -- open the card cage cover -- grabs one of the >> boards -- pulls it out [the machine is live, mind you] -- and >> *crushes* it in his bare hands. He then stalks out, without having >> ever said a word. > >Yes. Yes. Yes. :-) > >Hey, they interupted his vacation to let him do a 3 minute job, right? And he may have replaced that board before. There are a few boards at the bottom of the Assebet because refurbishing never threw anything away at DEC. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: dkw@hera.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 28 Feb 2000 13:46:37 GMT Organization: Brandeis University, Waltham MA Lines: 81 Message-ID: <89du7t$r75$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.cs.brandeis.edu X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!new-news.cc.brandeis.edu!hera.cs.brandeis.edu!dkw Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50585 In article , ... |> He goes over to the front panel, looks at some lights, and says "Dammit! |> I told her to fix that!". Next, he dials in some numbers on the console |> switches and pushes "set address and display". Dick says "Y'know, you can |> do that on the console CRT" (the 3138 had both lights-and-switches and a |> soft console - some other 370's only had one or the other). The odd-looking |> guy says "I never trusted the guy who wrote the console microcode - he was |> a Commie!". After a few more sets of displays, he goes around to the other |> side of the CPU from where Dick was kicking it, grabbed a tri-lead (an odd |> sort of flat coax ribbon cable IBM used) and ripped it off the backplane. |> He then said "change this, it'll work" and turned and pointed at Leon and |> said "You! Take me to the airport, I need to go to Saudi Arabia". After |> Leon and the odd guy left, I asked Bob and Dick who the hell that was. Bob |> said "That was the guy who designed the 138". |> |> Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com |> terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA Which sounds very like this story posted in the DEC "War Story" notes file in 1987: <<< RSTS32::USER$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WAR_STORY.NOTE;1 >>> ================================================================================ Note 96.0 My favorite repair story 4 replies WHYVAX::HETRICK "Brian Hetrick" 48 lines 2-MAR-1987 17:26 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to tell my favorite hardware repair story. In another life, I worked for a Massachusetts based US-wide retail chain. They always had the latest and greatest IBM machines. They always got the first of anything off the production line -- as a result, what they got was often rather flakey, since the first one or two of anything are always learning experiences for the production crew, even for IBM. The IBM 370 model 168 this company had was relatively unreliable -- it would crash every day or two. The local CEs (FS types to us Digits) couldn't find out what was wrong. The regional CEs couldn't find out what was wrong. The national CEs couldn't find out what was wrong. The Model 168 tiger team couldn't find out what was wrong. By the time all these folk had poked around in the machine's innards, the people owning the machine were getting pretty fed up. So, IBM called in -- The Designer, called in from his vacation in Europe. The Model 168 tiger team is carefully neutral about whether this is advisable, in marked contrast to IBM's usual attitude that whatever they's going to do is *just* what you need. [Now, I don't know if this guy actually had anything to do with the Model 168 design. But I sure hope so, 'cause if he didn't, they took an awful chance.] Came the day The Designer is to look at the machine. In through the machine room door comes this *huge* man -- at least 6 1/2 feet tall, 4 feet wide, 350 pounds if he was an ounce, and none of it slack bellied. He's wearing white buckskin with 2 foot long fringes along the arms and legs. He stalks -- that's the only word for it -- over to the console, and sits down. He watches the video display intently while manipulating the various dials and switches on the auxiliary console on his left, and flipping the multi-mode flashing lights display between several modes. After no more than three minutes of this going on, in total silence, he stalks over to one of the cabinets -- pulls the door open -- open the card cage cover -- grabs one of the boards -- pulls it out [the machine is live, mind you] -- and *crushes* it in his bare hands. He then stalks out, without having ever said a word. After we picked the CSs up off the floor, they power down the machine, replace the 18 inch by 24 inch, multi-layer board this hulk has just reduced to fiberglass splinters, and power the machine back up. No problem, then or since. Brian Hetrick -- --David Wittenberg dkw@cs.brandeis.edu ###### From: ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 28 Feb 2000 14:13:04 GMT Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <89dvpg$1bg8$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89du7t$r75$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cauchy.cs.uni-bonn.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de 951747184 44552 131.220.4.169 (28 Feb 2000 14:13:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2000 14:13:04 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!f.de.uu.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50587 In article <89du7t$r75$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, dkw@hera.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg) writes: > ...After no more than three minutes of > this going on, in total silence, he stalks over to one of the cabinets > -- pulls the door open -- open the card cage cover -- grabs one of the > boards -- pulls it out [the machine is live, mind you] -- and > *crushes* it in his bare hands. He then stalks out, without having > ever said a word. Yes. Yes. Yes. :-) Hey, they interupted his vacation to let him do a 3 minute job, right? -is -- * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) ###### Message-ID: <38BAB460.1C550E7A@aldon.com> From: Douglas Weber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <89dmrk$gct$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 95 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:44:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: aldongw.aldon.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:44:27 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newsin.iconnet.net!IConNet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50598 Having done the OS maint for many years on AS/400's where a disk problem is truely the end of the world, there is many a time I would have liked to have called out for the replacement of the 0x00CE FRU. Doug Weber For the TLA deficient: CE=Customer Engineer(IBM for tech repair) FRU =Field replacable unit-FRU is the current level of correction. Mostly boards etc. CE's used to have to know how things worked. Currently all they have to do is follow the MAP and find the most likely failing FRU. I will also comment that I have delt with many very knowledgable and helpful CE's. Maarten Deen wrote: > Brian Inglis writes: > > >On 27 Feb 2000 22:35:04 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer > > wrote: > > >OTOH, most DEC FS staff I met were competent and confident enough > >to listen to what our staff told them, and check out parts we > >suggested might be a problem, before going the full system > >exerciser route. > > I believe the DEC FS engineers that start talking about their RPG's > do belong to those. The other one's ere those that... > > At our customers we always install DEC^h^higi^h^h^h^hCompaq machines to > run our applications on. These applications are an SQL database and our > own set of memory and CPU intensive applications. They are used to > run an automated pick-by-light warehouse. > > At one of our customers we have 2 4100's, both with a diskarray. The > array is software shadowed (yes, our mistake) and all disks have a label > stuck to the housing to be able to identify them. > > One of the disks went bad. We exactly knew which, because our logfiles > pointed it out. 'show dev dk' showed it, and the disk label (which was > stuck to to the housing of the disk) led you to the right disk (where > the error light was blinking). Apparently this was not enough for our FSE. > > He did his own checks. Well, tried to, because of the software shadowing, > he couldn't find out which disk was faulty ('I'm a hardware FSE', he > explained). After pointing out to him that 'show dev dk' gave him the info > he needed, he continued. > FSE: 'Can you shutdown the systems?' > we: 'Rather not. It's a pain, we need them and we want to annoy you. > anyway, the drives are hotpluggable and hotswappable, aren't they?' > FSE: 'Y..e..s.. but... what if something happens?' > we: 'Tough break, innit?' > > The FSE continued (mind you, 'we' were not on site. All conversation > went by phone. The customer was on site, but knew diddly about these > machines). > The FSE did his thing and went home. Because he needed 5 hours for this, > we already left for our beds and took his actions for granted (our > relationship with the customer wasn't that good before we did this). > > Next morning, all hell broke loose. Nothing worked in our system. > Upon closer inspection, both sides of the drive in the shadowset of which > one had gone bad were dismounted. We tried to mount the good one. Didn't > work. We phoned our customer for physical inspection of the disk cabinets. > We weren't surprised to find out that the FSE took out the working disk, > and left the site with the most important disk of all. The disk containing > the layout of the warehouse and current location of all stock. > > The rest of the day was spent in search of our FSE. He didn't show up > before late afternoon. > > We've had a history of FSE claiming to be software FSE and the problem > is a hardware one, or claiming to be hardware FSE and the problem is > a software one. Most problems would have taken half an hour to fix, > even if we did it ourself, but that's not why you have a service > contract. > > Maarten Deen ###### Sender: meissner@tiktok.cygnus.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89du7t$r75$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <89dvpg$1bg8$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <89e0k8$oj2$3@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Michael Meissner Message-ID: Organization: Cygnus Solutions, A Red Hat company. Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Date: 28 Feb 2000 13:15:28 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.192.197.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 951761730 209.192.197.34 (Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:15:30 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:15:30 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50582 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > And he may have replaced that board before. There are a few > boards at the bottom of the Assebet because refurbishing never > threw anything away at DEC. Yes, we had that problem at Data General. They would rev all of the boards, and sooner or later some of the old rev boards would find their way back into the spares bin (because they still had the QA stickers on them). The lab manager threatened to use his circuit tester, which consisted of two wires connected to a normal 110 volt plug. After using his circuit tester, it was guaranteed that Field Circus could find the bad board :-) -- Michael Meissner, Cygnus Solutions, a Red Hat company. PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work: meissner@redhat.com phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: meissner@spectacle-pond.org fax: +1 978-692-4482 ###### From: Michael Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:28:50 +0000 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <88v0s6$fck@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ogCiPiAe7ojerxMBCYXQQuP0uhgMn1dpC8eRWp1YneY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Feb 2000 00:28:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50704 On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:08:09 -0700, Brian Inglis wrote: snip.. >I never met any like that in Scotland: most seemed to be >ex-service vets who could shoot and replace at component level >with a meter and scope. But I met a few when I came to Canada >(GIA). Scotland? You knew DEC10-era FS folks with DEC in Scotland? This has got my interest up because I've been trying for years to track down the last British KI10, which was dismantled in the SSHA in Edinburgh *with DEC FS help* and taken to the 'Scottish Museum of Computing' or somesuch - an organization that promptly vanished! Any clues or leads? Thanks Mike Rangers Catering Corps - 'We boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:27:39 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <9vombso46ssvrn03leetpikp852am3elcf@4ax.com> References: <38b42f5a$2$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <893h6o$if4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <895o8s$p5j$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.146.180 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.146.180 X-Trace: 28 Feb 2000 23:27:41 -0700, 207.148.146.180 Lines: 34 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.146.180 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50700 On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:28:50 +0000, Michael Ross wrote: >On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 03:08:09 -0700, Brian Inglis > wrote: > >snip.. > >>I never met any like that in Scotland: most seemed to be >>ex-service vets who could shoot and replace at component level >>with a meter and scope. But I met a few when I came to Canada >>(GIA). > >Scotland? You knew DEC10-era FS folks with DEC in Scotland? > >This has got my interest up because I've been trying for years to >track down the last British KI10, which was dismantled in the SSHA in >Edinburgh *with DEC FS help* and taken to the 'Scottish Museum of >Computing' or somesuch - an organization that promptly vanished! > >Any clues or leads? > >Thanks > >Mike > >Rangers Catering Corps - 'We boil for the One, we fry for the One' Sorry, it's been over 20 years since I worked there. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com Message-ID: <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> Date: 29 Feb 2000 13:04:51 -0500 X-Trace: 29 Feb 2000 13:04:51 -0500, dbit.dbit.com Lines: 25 XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!wilson Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50615 The horror stories sound familiar... I used to work for a company in Woburn, MA which had a VAX-11/780 on a DEC service contract. Our FS guy was a moron. Among the things he was reputed to have done (I only witnessed the last few before we canceled the contract) -- * arrived to perform PM when the system was working fine, and spent the rest of the day replacing heads because he crashed our RP06 * set the VAX on fire! luckily quickly extinguished. * I have trouble believing this one -- supposedly he managed to mung up the bitmap file on our system disk, but he figured no problem, he'd just DECnet another one from one of the MicroVAXes. * the last straw was just a piece of small-time idiocy, we told DEC we were canceling the $30K/year contract and switching to NS or something, and they said waaaaaiiiit!!!! they'd send the guy down to do such a whiz-bang job of PM that we'd change our minds. not only did he screw up everything he touched, but while feverishly trying to fix all it he started taking notes using a permanent felt tip pen, all over the *keyboard* of our new Tek 4105 graphics terminal which had cost us thousands of dollars!!! Needless to say we did switch to 3rd party FS. John Wilson D Bit ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 29 Feb 2000 14:22:52 -0500 Organization: Cornell University Program of Computer Graphics Lines: 22 Sender: westin@DIESEL Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: diesel.graphics.cornell.edu X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50779 Well, not DEC, but an FS story: An E&S PS390 display started to go bad: vertical lines creeping down the screen. Looked like a frame buffer going bad, so we called E&S in Munich, about 350 miles away. The guy says, "Oh, it's probably thermal. Just reach underneath and pull off the air filter; they get clogged. Call me back if it doesn't work" We figured it was a typical lazy tech trying to postpone the inevitable plane ride, but it worked! On his next visit, he applied the approved field service upgrade: flipping the fans to blow down, rather than sucking dirt off the floor. An E&S software guy happened to be visiting from E&S headquarters. The FS tech announced, "This will take about an hour and a half." Software says, "Back in Salt Lake, the guys tell us it takes four hours." FS: "Sure, if you do it the way they tell you to..." -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 29 Feb 2000 17:32:22 -0600 Organization: Disorganization, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!novia!newscene-east!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50786 In article , westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: > On his next visit, he applied the approved field service upgrade: > flipping the fans to blow down, rather than sucking dirt off the > floor. I've been surprised over the years at the number of otherwise well-designed machines that had cooling fans blowing *into* the box instead of *out*. Blowing air into a box is the worst possible way to cool the contents. Dave ###### From: jcmorris@jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 2 Mar 2000 14:23:33 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 24 Message-ID: <89lth5$k7b$1@top.mitre.org> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> Reply-To: jcmorris@linus.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 952007013 20715 128.29.251.13 (2 Mar 2000 14:23:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2000 14:23:33 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-x.support.nl!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jmorris-pc.MITRE.ORG!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50818 Dave writes: >westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: >> On his next visit, he applied the approved field service upgrade: >> flipping the fans to blow down, rather than sucking dirt off the >> floor. >I've been surprised over the years at the number of otherwise >well-designed machines that had cooling fans blowing *into* the box >instead of *out*. Blowing air into a box is the worst possible way to >cool the contents. Such as the DECsystem-10 we had (I don't recall if it was on our KI or KL box) which was on a typical computer center raised floor where the underfloor area was the cold-air plenum -- but which had fans at the top of each cabinet blowing air *down* into the box, preventing the cold air from coming up. DEC bought numerous memory modules under warranty/FS support because they experienced heat failure; FS eventually installed an ECO to turn the fans around and the Southern Fried Memory problem became nothing more than a war story. Joe Morris ###### From: Joshua Hesse <00093182@bigred.unl.edu> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 2 Mar 2000 18:01:52 GMT Organization: UNL Lines: 29 Message-ID: <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bigred.unl.edu X-HTML:
X-URL: http://straylight.unl.edu/concussion/ User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50849 Dave wrote: : In article , : westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: :> On his next visit, he applied the approved field service upgrade: :> flipping the fans to blow down, rather than sucking dirt off the :> floor. : I've been surprised over the years at the number of otherwise : well-designed machines that had cooling fans blowing *into* the box : instead of *out*. Blowing air into a box is the worst possible way to : cool the contents. I dunno about that. The original NeXT cubes ('030s) had the fan in the back mounted so that it would blow the air *out* instead of in. The problem was that the air coming into the cube would come in right through the optical drive slot. (not enough vent holes) Dust is bad for MO drives. Having all the dust-laden air come in through that slot didn't help any. The fan was turned around later, of course. -Josh -- "Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general This post (C)2000, Josh Hesse. Ignored material is (C) of the person quoted. |ess|ngr|nl.| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL email: jh|e@e|s.u|edu /||\ DREAMLANDS .Sigfile freshness date:10-28-99 "I have also mastered pomposity, even if I do say so myself." -Kryten ###### Message-ID: <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:55:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.101.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 952026923 63.15.101.161 (Thu, 02 Mar 2000 11:55:23 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 11:55:23 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50824 Joshua Hesse wrote: > The problem was that the air coming into the cube would come in right > through the optical drive slot. (not enough vent holes) > Dust is bad for MO drives. Having all the dust-laden air come in through > that slot didn't help any. The fan was turned around later, of course. > > -Josh I don't believe its good for any removable disk drive. I've had lotsof problems with floppies due to this very situation. I wish they would build a separate "air-tight" box around the floppy drive(s) so the air being sucked into the box wouldn't come through the disk opening. It's even worse in an "industrial" environment. I normally keep a "sacrificial" floppy available to put in the drive and format before using the floppy I want to access/write. This usually cleans them enough. Over the phone, I always have customers take a new blank floppy and format it, then throw it away, before using the drive for real. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 00 12:44:51 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <89ohju$bcq$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> X-Trace: gW0DdZ948SUX/7A+0FKi3suzoQeakq8Y60bD3d13jHs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2000 14:18:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-131 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50985 In article , Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On 3 Mar 2000, Erno Palonheimo wrote: > >> >> Followups to alt.folklore.computers... >> >> jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >> >> > I always knew Stephanie was smart about computers..would you want YOUR >> > children learning AIX? >> >> Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating >> system? And, please show me which other UNIX systems allow you to add > > > >Oh, come on, not in this thread! Dammit, I wanna hear more war stories, >not another OS credentials-dicksize war. Take it to the other flame >thread. I assure you; I have not been comparing dicksizes. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 2 Mar 2000 22:11:43 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 952035103 63412 10.0.0.43 (2 Mar 2000 22:11:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2000 22:11:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!netscum.int!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51047 I don't know why people want to have fans *sucking* rather than blowing. It's much better to have the fan blowing air, through a filter, through ductwork that feeds filtered outside air to the components that most need it, than to have dust-laden air sucked in through any random gap in the housing. The best cooling system I ever saw was in the IBM RS-6000. I really wish I could have talked my wife into letting me buy one of those used just for the case. Little molded plastic ducts all over the place. Yes, of course, you don't want to do stupid things like having fans blowing against each other or drawing air from areas that accumulate dust, but all other things being equal it's better to blow rather than suck. -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:26:04 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-g9k9zgzUi0CUrqqzVBzaKuknbCU3ppvmwH/BUl3y6UCd76iDNXRmKcU0UxNtWrPQNZDsMp868hYJXzp!V/ly/SnWMW1OoYqiC4cx+w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 23:26:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50947 On 2 Mar 2000 22:11:43 GMT, Peter da Silva wrote: >The best cooling system I ever saw was in the IBM RS-6000. I really wish I >could have talked my wife into letting me buy one of those used just for the >case. Little molded plastic ducts all over the place. I always knew Stephanie was smart about computers..would you want YOUR children learning AIX? >[...] all other things being equal it's better to blow rather than suck. This is sigfile material. ###### From: chris 'fufas' grace Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:19:14 +1300 Organization: transdata corporation ltd, auckland n.z. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <38BF1312.767B325A@transdata.co.nz> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.36.43.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: aklobs.kc.net.nz 952046299 16762 202.36.43.34 (3 Mar 2000 01:18:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@kcbbs.gen.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2000 01:18:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.iprolink.co.nz!kcbbs!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50976 Peter da Silva wrote: > but all > other things being equal it's better to blow rather than suck. > > -- > This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references I think you have created a better sig line right above! -- For a dining "experience" visit the "Killer Prawn" in Whangarei! Be served and charged for food *without even ordering it*! Let the staff treat you with undisguised condescension and contempt! Experience the total incompetence of the management! Book today! ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 3 Mar 2000 03:21:36 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <89nb40$29eb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 952053696 75211 10.0.0.43 (3 Mar 2000 03:21:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2000 03:21:36 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!netscum.int!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51025 In article , Jay Maynard wrote: >On 2 Mar 2000 22:11:43 GMT, Peter da Silva wrote: >>The best cooling system I ever saw was in the IBM RS-6000. I really wish I >>could have talked my wife into letting me buy one of those used just for the >>case. Little molded plastic ducts all over the place. >I always knew Stephanie was smart about computers..would you want YOUR >children learning AIX? I wasn't going to keep the motherboard... just the case. The RS6000 case would have held the 486/66 EISA motherboard that bonkers.taronga.com ran on just fine. >>[...] all other things being equal it's better to blow rather than suck. >This is sigfile material. It OOCQs better the other way around. -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. ###### From: Erno Palonheimo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 03 Mar 2000 05:56:34 +0200 Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ebola.hut.fi X-Trace: nntp.hut.fi 952055799 16950 130.233.224.78 (3 Mar 2000 03:56:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntp.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2000 03:56:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!nntp.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50981 Followups to alt.folklore.computers... jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > I always knew Stephanie was smart about computers..would you want YOUR > children learning AIX? Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating system? And, please show me which other UNIX systems allow you to add more disks to a volume group and then resize _any_ partition to use the additional space on the volume groups without users even notifying the change? Also you could tell me which operating systems have an environment variable which specifies which processes should not be killed if the system runs out of swap space and starts to shoot processes down at random. Etc, etc, etc... I think AIX gets bashed way too much only because of incompetent system administrators who can't think in any other way than pure BSD or pure SysV. ;-) -- Erno Palonheimo - Helsinki University of Technology - + 358 50 560 4765 ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1YGv4.3184$%A3.72966@ptah.visi.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 04:11:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 952056701 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:11:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:11:41 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50972 In article , Erno Palonheimo wrote: >Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating >system? And, please show me which other UNIX systems allow you to add >more disks to a volume group and then resize _any_ partition to use >the additional space on the volume groups without users even notifying >the change? Very few right now, but believe me, the feature has been noted, and will be assimilated. >Also you could tell me which operating systems have an >environment variable which specifies which processes should not be >killed if the system runs out of swap space and starts to shoot >processes down at random. Uhm. Whose environment? I can't figure out how you can make this sensical; no one can normally set a parent's environment, so if it's not a user shell, how is it set, and if it's a user shell, how does the OS know which one? For that matter, why on earth is it shooting processes down at random? The only correct behavior is for allocations to fail, and programs (which are, of course, correctly written) will fail gracefully and exit. It should never be the default to allocate resources you don't really have; it's too dangerous. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 06:58:03 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-A7L9kkfg0f9urixS/hjQQml3LPy2EwtmPis2EWIMvHTARMTwrVdVWmo50r7gLyZqBwhnWwINOKsjzBs!8XbRmaxl4BOUvjb5nm/jxA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:58:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50958 On 03 Mar 2000 05:56:34 +0200, Erno Palonheimo wrote: >Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating >system? As Unix systems go, AIX is fscking *WEIRD*. Having spent many years in the IBM world, I can understand why IBM did what they did; it's the result of trying to make Unix administration more like administering an AS/400. If all you ever do is AIX, it's not bad. The problem is that AIX has its own database of how the system is configured *on top of the standard Unix facilities to do the same thing*. You *can't* treat an AIX box like any other Unix system from an administration viewpoint. If you ignore smit, as many of us would love to do, you *will* screw the system up horribly in very short order. No other Unix has this problem. It's quite possible to ignore SAM on an HP, or scoadmin on SCO, or admintool on a Sun, and the system will operate just the same. Don't try this on AIX, though. > And, please show me which other UNIX systems allow you to add >more disks to a volume group and then resize _any_ partition to use >the additional space on the volume groups without users even notifying >the change? I pointed out this very feature earlier in the thread. Nothing is completely good or completely bad, and AIX does have its good points. >I think AIX gets bashed way >too much only because of incompetent system administrators who can't >think in any other way than pure BSD or pure SysV. ;-) Smile when you say that, pardner...I have, among my computer collection, an RS/6000 running AIX 3.2.5 (haven't sprung for the upgrade to 4.x yet, but I haven't seen any differences in the way 4.x boxes are administered), as well as the other OSes I mention above. AIX would be much less reviled if smit weren't mandatory. ###### From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 3 Mar 2000 15:05:38 GMT Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <89okc2$nvj$1@relay.lsl.co.uk> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <1YGv4.3184$%A3.72966@ptah.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.9.200.129 X-Server-Date: 3 Mar 2000 15:05:38 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!fuse.lsl.co.uk!benh Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50967 Peter Seebach (seebs@plethora.net) wrote: : For that matter, why on earth is it shooting processes down at random? The : only correct behavior is for allocations to fail, and programs (which are, : of course, correctly written) will fail gracefully and exit. It should never : be the default to allocate resources you don't really have; it's too : dangerous. But that's the way Unix seems to work. You get copy-on-write and zero-on- write pages. Just writing to them can kill your process if there's no more swap available. -- Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:12:38 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 952092181 198.199.189.6 (Fri, 03 Mar 2000 08:03:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 08:03:01 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51060 On 3 Mar 2000, Erno Palonheimo wrote: > > Followups to alt.folklore.computers... > > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > > > I always knew Stephanie was smart about computers..would you want YOUR > > children learning AIX? > > Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating > system? And, please show me which other UNIX systems allow you to add Oh, come on, not in this thread! Dammit, I wanna hear more war stories, not another OS credentials-dicksize war. Take it to the other flame thread. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.172.150.110 Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 23 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:48:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.nero.net!news.uidaho.edu!sea-feed.news.verio.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50969 Howdy! Jay Maynard wrote in message ... >On 03 Mar 2000 05:56:34 +0200, Erno Palonheimo wrote: >>Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating >>system? > >As Unix systems go, AIX is fscking *WEIRD*. "AIX looks like an alien came to Earth and looked at Unix. He then went to another planet and described it to another species of alien. However, their universal translators were broken, and there were a LOT of hand guestures ... " Not sure if that's literal or not, but it's ONE of the taglines that make me chuckle every time I see it ... Oh - Author Unknown by me. RwP ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 3 Mar 2000 17:52:06 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <89ou46$9rb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <89nb40$29eb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 952105926 10091 10.0.0.43 (3 Mar 2000 17:52:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2000 17:52:06 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!netscum.int!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51024 In article <89nb40$29eb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: >In article , >Jay Maynard wrote: >>On 2 Mar 2000 22:11:43 GMT, Peter da Silva wrote: >>>The best cooling system I ever saw was in the IBM RS-6000. I really wish I >>>could have talked my wife into letting me buy one of those used just for the >>>case. Little molded plastic ducts all over the place. >>I always knew Stephanie was smart about computers..would you want YOUR >>children learning AIX? >I wasn't going to keep the motherboard... just the case. Sorry, I just checked my old mail. It wasn't an RS-6000, it was the RT-PC deskside case, so it would have been AOS, not AIX. Anyway, it was a really nice case. -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:23:36 +0000 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8vvo98.tsb.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <1YGv4.3184$%A3.72966@ptah.visi.com> <89okc2$nvj$1@relay.lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 952114832 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51058 In article <89okc2$nvj$1@relay.lsl.co.uk>, benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: [...] > But that's the way Unix seems to work. You get copy-on-write and zero-on- > write pages. Just writing to them can kill your process if there's no more > swap available. Shouldn't the process get suspended until swap *is* available? -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Does a Con Neumann machine run a Make | Play: dgiven@iname.com | Machines Fast scam? +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: drifkind@acm.deleteme.org (David Rifkind) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Win32) Lines: 32 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 21:27:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.145.227 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 952118857 216.161.145.227 (Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:27:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:27:37 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!drifkind Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51010 On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:55:23 GMT, jchausler wrote: > > >Joshua Hesse wrote: > >> The problem was that the air coming into the cube would come in right >> through the optical drive slot. (not enough vent holes) >> Dust is bad for MO drives. Having all the dust-laden air come in through >> that slot didn't help any. The fan was turned around later, of course. >> >> -Josh > >I don't believe its good for any removable disk drive. I've had lotsof problems >with floppies due to this very situation. I wish they >would build a separate "air-tight" box around the floppy drive(s) >so the air being sucked into the box wouldn't come through the >disk opening. It's even worse in an "industrial" environment. >I normally keep a "sacrificial" floppy available to put in the >drive and format before using the floppy I want to access/write. >This usually cleans them enough. Over the phone, I always >have customers take a new blank floppy and format it, then >throw it away, before using the drive for real. I just had to blow about a year's worth of fluff out of my floppy drive to make it work. Roedy Green used to say that the inside of his computer looked like sheep had been nesting there. Mine looks like sheep have been using it as a crack house. -- "The privileged being which we call human is distinguished from other animals only by certain double-edged manifestations which in charity we can only call 'inhuman.'" -- Epiktistes ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 23:23:50 GMT Message-ID: <952125830.16304.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <1YGv4.3184$%A3.72966@ptah.visi.com> <89okc2$nvj$1@relay.lsl.co.uk> <8vvo98.tsb.ln@127.0.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 952125830 nnrp-10:16304 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.13 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51057 David Given wrote: >In article <89okc2$nvj$1@relay.lsl.co.uk>, > benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: >[...] >> But that's the way Unix seems to work. You get copy-on-write and zero-on- >> write pages. Just writing to them can kill your process if there's no more >> swap available. >Shouldn't the process get suspended until swap *is* available? So freezes, rather than exiting? It's not quite as simple as it might seem, though there are ways of picking processes to kill, better than just random ones that happen to need another byte of memory. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- My inner child can beat up your inner child. - Alex Greenbank ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 3 Mar 2000 23:39:07 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: <89pier01ogt@news2.newsguy.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-583.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51004 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > On 03 Mar 2000 05:56:34 +0200, Erno Palonheimo wrote: > >Please, go ahead and tell us why AIX is such a horrible operating > >system? > As Unix systems go, AIX is fscking *WEIRD*. Having spent many years in the > IBM world, I can understand why IBM did what they did; it's the result of > trying to make Unix administration more like administering an AS/400. If all > you ever do is AIX, it's not bad. Much as I hate to even take notice of another stupid OS religious war... I've been administering and developing software on AIX, half a dozen other Unix variants, and OS/400 for over a decade, and AIX is *nothing like OS/400* in any way, shape, or form, except for the IBM label. And AIX is far from "all [I] ever do", and it's still not bad. I've yet to see a convincing argument to the contrary, and I've read a lot of them over the years. > The problem is that AIX has its own database of how the system is configured > *on top of the standard Unix facilities to do the same thing*. The ODM isn't used for (pseudo)standard Unix configuration, like inetd, any more - not since AIX 3, which IBM dropped support for years ago. It's still used for things like installed software tracking and device configuration, but there's no consistency for those among other Unix variants anyway. > You *can't* > treat an AIX box like any other Unix system from an administration > viewpoint. If you ignore smit, as many of us would love to do, you *will* > screw the system up horribly in very short order. No you won't. smit doesn't do anything that can't be done from the command line, and the commands it uses are documented. I use smit for sysadmin tasks I rarely do, because it's easier than the man -k / man / command sequence, but for anything I do regularly the command line works well. > I have, among my computer collection, an > RS/6000 running AIX 3.2.5 (haven't sprung for the upgrade to 4.x yet, but I > haven't seen any differences in the way 4.x boxes are administered), as well > as the other OSes I mention above. You're several years behind the times. > AIX would be much less reviled if smit weren't mandatory. AIX has plenty of supporters, and smit isn't mandatory. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University Pocket #9: A complete "artificial glen" with rocks, and artificial moon, and forester's station. Excellent for achieving the effect of the sublime without going out-of-doors. -- Joe Green ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <89pier01ogt@news2.newsguy.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:30:22 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-z8FKXmWJe46Ki5fx9y2g4HEbUrEBe+bBEO+cZtJ5cny9DEOz8OxwX39QJqCAADev+hSGyqdmQA05Nss!HLwNjl43yOhTArdIq3S41Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 15:30:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51148 On 3 Mar 2000 23:39:07 GMT, Michael Wojcik wrote: >I've been administering and developing software on AIX, half a dozen >other Unix variants, and OS/400 for over a decade, and AIX is >*nothing like OS/400* in any way, shape, or form, except for the IBM >label. I said *more* like administering an AS/400, not *like* it. smit is the same menu-driven lead-you-by-the-hand paradigm as the OS/400 admin tool. >The ODM isn't used for (pseudo)standard Unix configuration, like >inetd, any more - not since AIX 3, which IBM dropped support for >years ago. It's still used for things like installed software >tracking and device configuration, but there's no consistency for >those among other Unix variants anyway. Good...IBM finally listened to the screams of Unix admins. >No you won't. smit doesn't do anything that can't be done from >the command line, and the commands it uses are documented. I use >smit for sysadmin tasks I rarely do, because it's easier than the >man -k / man / command sequence, but for anything I do regularly >the command line works well. Are the commands standard? Can I treat it like some mix of SysV and BSD and have things work as expected? (For those facilities that are present in SysV or BSD, that is; things like expanding a filesystem need their own commands that won't be found anywhere else for obvious reasons.) >> AIX would be much less reviled if smit weren't mandatory. >AIX has plenty of supporters, and smit isn't mandatory. Can it be deleted from the system with no ill effects? Perhaps, one of these days, I'll pay the $325 or so upgrade fee for that box to the current AIX...but there are other things higher on the priority list. Once upon a time, I was making buttons to order for ClariNet at Usenix...one of the most popular was "smit happens". Integrated, all-in-one handholding admin tools like smit aren't the Unix Way, and experienced multiplatform Unix admins loathe and avoid them. AIX earned its reputation by forcing one on the admin, and only with v4 (if that's true) is that reputation undeserved. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 6 Mar 2000 16:43:33 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!an02.austin.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51232 In , Dave writes: >In article , >westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: > > >> On his next visit, he applied the approved field service upgrade: >> flipping the fans to blow down, rather than sucking dirt off the >> floor. > >I've been surprised over the years at the number of otherwise >well-designed machines that had cooling fans blowing *into* the box >instead of *out*. Blowing air into a box is the worst possible way to >cool the contents. > >Dave Ok, I'll confess that I'm missing the point here. Why is blowing air into a box a bad way to cool it as opposed to sucking air out of it? Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 18 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 17:27:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 952363625 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:27:05 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:27:05 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51162 In article <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wrote: >Ok, I'll confess that I'm missing the point here. Why is blowing air >into a box a bad way to cool it as opposed to sucking air out of it? Apparently, if you suck air out of it, and it comes in through holes, you get nice, consistent, behavior in how the air comes in, so you can *control* the air flow. If you blow air into it, you can get weird turbulence problems, and it doesn't behave as consistently. Of course, either way, you can get a fair amount of dust. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: plugh@NO.SPAM.PLEASE (Caveman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Organization: Crystal Cave Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8a0u3s$8rs@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Date: 6 Mar 2000 12:41:00 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.61.138.75 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: news.swbell.net 952368075 216.61.138.75 (Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:41:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:41:15 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!news.swbell.net.POSTED!news.swbell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51129 In article , Peter Seebach wrote: > >Apparently, if you suck air out of it, and it comes in through holes, you get >nice, consistent, behavior in how the air comes in, so you can *control* the >air flow. If you blow air into it, you can get weird turbulence problems, and >it doesn't behave as consistently. The real problem here is that there are two issues. One is controlling dust entry. That is a filter and environmental problem. The other is cooling. In terms of cooling, there is a significant advantage to blowing air into the box. First of all, doing so permits easy direction of that air to critical components by proper ducting. Second, there is a theoretical efficiency gain by having positive static pressure inside the box. Trivial in good designs, but it can save you in poor ones. It also keeps unfiltered air from entering through unintended sources such as chassis seams. If you know where it comes in, you can filter it. Relying on air "coming in" through multiple ports is consistently mediocre and occasionally very bad, particularly when some critical part of the path gets clogged by dust entering by a myriad of uncontrolled and unfiltered "holes." Your "weird turbulence problems" are about as credible to a mechanical engineer as "weird latency problems" are to you. Sadly, even engineers and scientists seem to be subject to absurd superstition about some kind of "magic" imposed by "passive" multiple routes of air entry. It's too hard to understand, therefore it must be better. The main issue is simply to get smart people to design things right in the first place, and that is a management problem. -- "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all different." ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8a0u3s$8rs@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 25 Message-ID: <_wUw4.704$F7.16169@ptah.visi.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 20:27:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 952374458 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:27:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:27:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!209.98.98.64!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51169 In article <8a0u3s$8rs@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net>, Caveman wrote: >In terms of cooling, there is a significant advantage to blowing air >into the box. First of all, doing so permits easy direction of that air >to critical components by proper ducting. Second, there is a >theoretical efficiency gain by having positive static pressure inside >the box. Trivial in good designs, but it can save you in poor ones. It >also keeps unfiltered air from entering through unintended sources such >as chassis seams. If you know where it comes in, you can filter it. Very good points. >Relying on air "coming in" through multiple ports is consistently >mediocre and occasionally very bad, particularly when some critical >part of the path gets clogged by dust entering by a myriad of uncontrolled >and unfiltered "holes." Huh. That's a point; never thought about that, but it makes sense. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 6 Mar 2000 22:25:14 -0600 Organization: Hey Pal - Organize This! Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!novia!newscene-east!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51210 On 6 Mar 2000 16:43:33 GMT, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >Ok, I'll confess that I'm missing the point here. Why is blowing air >into a box a bad way to cool it as opposed to sucking air out of it? > Because it's *much* more efficient to pull air than to push it, for the same reasons it's easier to pull a rope along the ground than to push it. The idea of a simple cooling fan sucking air out of a box is to maintain an air flow of presumably cooler outside air thru the box. It exhausts the box. Blowing air into it accomplishes little in terms of airflow thru the entire box. Try this experiment some calm, non-windy day. Open all the windows in your house. In one of them, place the biggest fan you can get - a big square one preferably - blowing in. See what kind of airflow you have on the other side of the house. Hint: there won't be any. Now turn the fan around so it blows *out*. You will have air coming *in* thru every window in the house and going out thru the fan. It will actually flow down hallways and around corners. Now imagine that there are lots of little heat producing gizmos in every room and the outside air is cooler than the inside, and you see the advantage to sucking air out of a box rather than blowing in. Dave ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: Chez Inwap From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Date: 07 Mar 2000 07:24:17 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <38c4aea1$0$214@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 952413857 214 inwap@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51170 The best designs I've seen use two fans: The primary (bigger) fan draws air through a filter, producing a stream of clean, dust-free air. The secondary (smaller) fan is mounted on the power supply, where it can draw air over the hotest components and exhaust it outside the box. The relative sizes of the fans are designed to achieve positive pressure to keep dust out of the box's cracks and crevices. (One should NOT suck air through the floppy/Zip/CD/DVD slot.) -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: prs@gol.com (Jacqui or (maybe) Pete) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Message-ID: <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 12:52:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.43.79 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 952433533 203.216.43.79 (Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:52:13 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:52:13 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!nnrp.gol.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51140 On 6 Mar 2000 22:25:14 -0600, Dave wrote: ... >Because it's *much* more efficient to pull air than to push it, for >the same reasons it's easier to pull a rope along the ground than to >push it. OK, I've posted a couple of very dumb questions to this group recently, so here's another one: why? i.e. how do you know which side of a fan is which? >The idea of a simple cooling fan sucking air out of a box is to >maintain an air flow of presumably cooler outside air thru the box. >It exhausts the box. Blowing air into it accomplishes little in terms >of airflow thru the entire box. I see that drawing air out one place drags air in through all other holes. Can't see that's a good thing? >Try this experiment some calm, non-windy day. Open all the windows in >your house. In one of them, place the biggest fan you can get - a big >square one preferably - blowing in. See what kind of airflow you have >on the other side of the house. Hint: there won't be any. > >Now turn the fan around so it blows *out*. You will have air coming >*in* thru every window in the house and going out thru the fan. It >will actually flow down hallways and around corners. Now imagine that >there are lots of little heat producing gizmos in every room and the >outside air is cooler than the inside, and you see the advantage to >sucking air out of a box rather than blowing in. Why's that then? What's the difference in creating positive pressure to creating negative pressure? As you will no doubt have realised, I know jack shit about this stuff - but I'm genuinely interested. Pete ###### Message-ID: <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 17:50:44 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader0.news.uu.net 952469445 18876 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader0.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51320 Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote: > > On 6 Mar 2000 22:25:14 -0600, Dave wrote: > > ... > >Because it's *much* more efficient to pull air than to push it, for > >the same reasons it's easier to pull a rope along the ground than to > >push it. > > OK, I've posted a couple of very dumb questions to this group > recently, so here's another one: why? i.e. how do you know which side > of a fan is which? I've been trying to figure out Dave's comment as well. The flow of air *is* conserved; i.e. for every mole of air that you're pulling in the inlet, there's exactly mole of air going out the other side. So it's impossible to push without pulling, or to pull without pushing. (Unless Dave has figured out some way to create or destroy mass inside the fan, that is.) Now, if Dave wants to start talking about laminar vs turbulent flow, that's a different matter. But he better be able to back up his statements with something more substantial than "rope" and his bogus arguments about fans and houses, i.e. he should include some dimensionless numbers named after famous physicists if he wants to get any credibility with the crowd I hang out with. Tim. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 8 Mar 2000 09:40:05 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8a575l$ila$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 952508405 19114 134.117.136.30 (8 Mar 2000 09:40:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Mar 2000 09:40:05 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51332 Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) writes: > > I've been trying to figure out Dave's comment as well. The > flow of air *is* conserved; i.e. for every mole of air that you're > pulling in the inlet, there's exactly mole of air going out the > other side. So it's impossible to push without pulling, or to pull > without pushing. > > (Unless Dave has figured out some way to create or destroy mass inside > the fan, that is.) Theory B: Do the sides of the box bulge while powered on? Does the box exhale when switched off? Could the fan not run the building's electric meter backwards? ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 11:38:22 GMT Organization: Easynet Group plc Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8a5e9s$l67$1@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a575l$ila$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 952515708 21703 194.154.98.206 (8 Mar 2000 11:41:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Mar 2000 11:41:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51350 In article <8a575l$ila$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: >Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) writes: >> >> I've been trying to figure out Dave's comment as well. The >> flow of air *is* conserved; i.e. for every mole of air that you're >> pulling in the inlet, there's exactly mole of air going out the >> other side. So it's impossible to push without pulling, or to pull >> without pushing. >> >> (Unless Dave has figured out some way to create or destroy mass inside >> the fan, that is.) > > Theory B: Do the sides of the box bulge while powered on? Does the > box exhale when switched off? Could the fan not run the building's > electric meter backwards? Not being an aerodymanicist, I don't even pretend to know about Reynolds numbers...but I do seem to recall that some fans work much better on one direction of rotation that the other - something to do with the shape of the blade? Perhaps this is what Dave meant? -- barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 16:20:56 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 31 Message-ID: <38c60478.5072011@news.shuswap.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <8a0u3s$8rs@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> <_wUw4.704$F7.16169@ptah.visi.com> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-45.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 952532275 6088 139.142.177.175 (8 Mar 2000 16:17:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Mar 2000 16:17:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51311 seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: >In article <8a0u3s$8rs@adsl-216-61-138-75.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net>, >Caveman wrote: >>In terms of cooling, there is a significant advantage to blowing air >>into the box. First of all, doing so permits easy direction of that air >>to critical components by proper ducting. Second, there is a >>theoretical efficiency gain by having positive static pressure inside >>the box. Trivial in good designs, but it can save you in poor ones. It >>also keeps unfiltered air from entering through unintended sources such >>as chassis seams. If you know where it comes in, you can filter it. > >Very good points. > >>Relying on air "coming in" through multiple ports is consistently >>mediocre and occasionally very bad, particularly when some critical >>part of the path gets clogged by dust entering by a myriad of uncontrolled >>and unfiltered "holes." > >Huh. That's a point; never thought about that, but it makes sense. I had two floppy drives killed by dust! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 8 Mar 2000 12:45:46 -0600 Organization: Organize This! Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!novia!newscene-east!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51384 On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 17:50:44 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Now, if Dave wants to start talking about laminar vs turbulent >flow, that's a different matter. But he better be able to back >up his statements with something more substantial than "rope" and >his bogus arguments about fans and houses, i.e. >he should include some dimensionless numbers named after >famous physicists if he wants to get any credibility with >the crowd I hang out with. There's nothing like an experiment to prove a point. Do try the fan in the house experiment and let us know your results. Be honest. Do you have a PC? Does it have a fan on the power supply? Which way is it blowing? Out you say? Good. I'll wager the top/sides of the case are cool to the touch. All of mine are. Now turn it around so it blows *in*. Come back and tell us how the top/sides of the case feel now. I recently did just this. I recently picked up a used Gateway tower case. After installing motherboard, cards, drives, etc and running it for an hour or so, the top and sides were *very* warm. I've never seen such a warm PC before. After checking it out for a few minutes I noticed the fan was blowing *in*. It was obviously installed backwards because we have other samples of this exact same case where the fan blows out. I turned the fan around so it blows out, put it back together and now the case and the interior are quite cool. Once again, you can't beat sucking air out of a box for cheap cooling. Blowing air in does nothing to create an even airflow. Dave ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:55:11 -0600 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg2.micro.umn.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51382 Dave wrote in message ... >Once again, you can't beat sucking air out of a box for cheap cooling. >Blowing air in does nothing to create an even airflow. > >Dave > All my HP and Tek equipment have fans that blow in. This was even true on the 585 oscilloscope, that drew about 650 watts. So Dave is right, HP and Tektronix are wrong. Funny that not one of the thousands of engineers at those firms figured this out. Another thing, if the fan blows out, then dust comes in through every little hole and poor-fitting edge. If the fan blows in, you only need to put ONE filter over the fan to catch the dust. ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 9 Mar 2000 01:25:19 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 174 Message-ID: <8a6uhv0ds7@news2.newsguy.com> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> <89mouv$1ttk$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <89pier01ogt@news2.newsguy.com> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-749.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51471 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > On 3 Mar 2000 23:39:07 GMT, Michael Wojcik wrote: > >I've been administering and developing software on AIX, half a dozen > >other Unix variants, and OS/400 for over a decade, and AIX is > >*nothing like OS/400* in any way, shape, or form, except for the IBM > >label. > I said *more* like administering an AS/400, not *like* it. smit is the same > menu-driven lead-you-by-the-hand paradigm as the OS/400 admin tool. They may have somewhat similar look & feel (though I wouldn't say so), but their capabilities, designs, and implementations are radically different. SMIT (or "smit", if you prefer; it's an acronym, but I'm not fond of block capitals, and the command itself is "smit") is an extensible application with a menu-based UI and a scripting backend. (It just invokes sh, actually.) OTOH, that's the OS/400 "shell" (CL), not an "admin tool" per se. CL is an environment which provides a page-based UI to a variety of objects, including menus, forms (where the user fills in fields and presses action keys to perform operations), commands (which are just shortcuts to forms - to define a command, you have to construct the form), and program objects (which can be called directly from a command line and passed parameters with the "call" command, or called from other programs, regardless of what language either is written in). CL also provides a primitive (almost no control structures) compiled programming language, which is not directly available from command lines. (A "command line", by the way, is just any input field on a form that's defined to take a CL command string.) And after all there are many menu-based applications that have nothing to do with the AS/400, and indeed many of them were created long before the AS/400. My point is that SMIT isn't any more "AS/400-like" than it is, say, "Windows-like" or "Macintosh-like", except that it's text-based rather than bitmapped and uses IBM CUA conventions (unfortunately). And the design for SMIT from the beginning was to be optional. From "System Management: an Architecture" (Robert Fabbio and Patrick Goal, _IBM RISC System/6000 Technology_, SA23-2619-00, 174-77, 1990): The [SMIT] user interface is an interchangeable entity within the architecture and other presentation techniques can be substituted if desired without disrupting other layers. . . . The high-level commands can also be invoked from the shell without a sophisticated user interface. [A later paragraph makes a similar point about low-level commands.] > >The ODM isn't used for (pseudo)standard Unix configuration, like > >inetd, any more - not since AIX 3, which IBM dropped support for > >years ago. > Good...IBM finally listened to the screams of Unix admins. Yes. ODM arguably wasn't a bad idea in itself (though it can quickly become one if poorly implemented - the Windows Registry a prime example), but using it for things that had well-established configuration mechanisms was wrong. > >smit doesn't do anything that can't be done from > >the command line, and the commands it uses are documented. > Are the commands standard? Can I treat it like some mix of SysV and BSD and > have things work as expected? (For those facilities that are present in SysV > or BSD, that is; things like expanding a filesystem need their own commands > that won't be found anywhere else for obvious reasons.) That's difficult to answer in the general case. Certainly AIX 3 (and later) did ship with many commands in /usr/ucb; and certainly there were efforts (as with the various flavors of stty) to at least provide multiple versions of a command when SysV and BSD differed. There are some things in AIX that I can think of off the top of my head that still differ from most of the other Unix flavors I use: there's no useradd (though there is a moral equivalent, adduser, with somewhat different syntax), for example. I'm not sure how well useradd was established in 1990. AIX 3 did pay a lot of attention to published standards like POSIX and X/Open, sometimes in subtle ways. From Fabbio and Goal: The low-level commands are written following the argument syntax and rules as defined by POSIX 1003.2 Section 2.8. That's for commands introduced with AIX, not for ones used in other Unixes. Similarly, AIX doesn't use a simple counter for assigning process IDs because predictable PIDs are a covert channel, which some applicable security standard (Orange Book, maybe) forbids. > >> AIX would be much less reviled if smit weren't mandatory. > >AIX has plenty of supporters, and smit isn't mandatory. > Can it be deleted from the system with no ill effects? Yes, assuming reasonable values of "no ill effects". (If you have a violent-tempered AIX sysadmin who relies on SMIT, and you get rid of it, I don't think AIX can be blamed for any ill effects you suffer. If it's your own machine, you'll be fine.) *Everything* SMIT does is done by invoking external commands or shell scripts. It even keeps a record of the most recent script in ~/smit.script, and there's a function key that will show you what it's about to do. Many AIX sysadmins use SMIT to document an "approved" approach to an unfamiliar task, then actually perform it themselves on the command line (judging from comments in comp.unix.aix). > Perhaps, one of these days, I'll pay the $325 or so upgrade fee for that box > to the current AIX...but there are other things higher on the priority list. Sure. I don't think you have to like AIX, or want to use it. > Once upon a time, I was making buttons to order for ClariNet at Usenix...one > of the most popular was "smit happens". Integrated, all-in-one handholding > admin tools like smit aren't the Unix Way, and experienced multiplatform > Unix admins loathe and avoid them. AIX earned its reputation by forcing one > on the admin, and only with v4 (if that's true) is that reputation > undeserved. I'm an "experienced multiplatform Unix admin", and I like SMIT, though I don't use it for stuff I do frequently. (OTOH, I find admintool useless, I don't like SAM, and I have mixed feelings about scoadmin.) And AIX didn't force it on the admin, even in v3. That was an unfortunate misperception - albeit one engendered largely by IBM. Frankly, I'm highly suspicious of claims about "the Unix Way". Is csh part of tUW? You certainly wouldn't think so from comp.unix.shell (and they have good reasons for disliking it), but it sure was big in the BSD world for a long time, and may still be for all I know. Is TLI/XTI part of tUW? No one that I know of uses it (despite a few possible advantages over sockets), but it came from USL. How many different Unix shared library implementations have you had to deal with? (I've fought with SysV, HP-UX, AIX, and SCO OSR 3.) Which of those is tUW? Is Perl tUW, or does the sh-awk-sed combination have superior tUW nature? And AIX had some actual very nice features (besides JFS and volume management, which have already been noted). SRC (the System Resource Controller), for instance, which added a much better control interface to daemons without removing the old one. "kill -HUP pid-of-inetd" still worked, but "refresh -s inetd" was cleaner. And you could add any daemon to SRC with just a SMIT menu or a few commands: whatever the command line to start it, "startsrc -s service" would work; if SIGTERM told it to clean up and exit, then "stopsrc -s service" worked; and if SIGHUP told it to reread its configuration file, "refresh -s service" worked. And you could enable remote SRC if you wanted - less of a gaping security hole than r-commands. But certainly AIX was always something of a departure from the two poles of USL and BSD. (So was HP-UX, but that's another question.) And certainly there are valid arguments to be made against AIX; I don't find any of them compelling (they're significant, but not so significant they engender any strong dislike of AIX in me), but that's me. I don't think that makes me a false prophet, but neither does it make those who disagree with me. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University Pocket #9: A complete "artificial glen" with rocks, and artificial moon, and forester's station. Excellent for achieving the effect of the sublime without going out-of-doors. -- Joe Green ###### From: "Simo Tuominen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:37:02 +0200 Organization: Heinrich Heine Universitaet Duesseldorf Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8aa6rt$p41@poseidon.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lan1.miu.uni-duesseldorf.de X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51551 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message news:8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu... > > Dave wrote in message ... > > >Once again, you can't beat sucking air out of a box for cheap cooling. > >Blowing air in does nothing to create an even airflow. [snip] > Another thing, if the fan blows out, then dust comes in through every > little hole and poor-fitting edge. If the fan blows in, you only need to > put ONE filter over the fan to catch the dust. So you use a few that blow and a few that suck, so there's a preference in where the air comes from. ###### Message-ID: <38C813CD.16F931A6@aldon.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 13:12:45 -0800 From: Douglas Weber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: aldongw.aldon.com X-Trace: 9 Mar 2000 13:06:14 -0800, aldongw.aldon.com Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!den-news-01.qwest.net!qwest!news01.m-l.net!aldongw.aldon.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51570 Tim Shoppa wrote: > Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote: > > > > On 6 Mar 2000 22:25:14 -0600, Dave wrote: > > > > ... > > >Because it's *much* more efficient to pull air than to push it, for > > >the same reasons it's easier to pull a rope along the ground than to > > >push it. > > > > OK, I've posted a couple of very dumb questions to this group > > recently, so here's another one: why? i.e. how do you know which side > > of a fan is which? > > I've been trying to figure out Dave's comment as well. The > flow of air *is* conserved; i.e. for every mole of air that you're > pulling in the inlet, there's exactly mole of air going out the > other side. So it's impossible to push without pulling, or to pull > without pushing. > > (Unless Dave has figured out some way to create or destroy mass inside > the fan, that is.) > > Now, if Dave wants to start talking about laminar vs turbulent > flow, that's a different matter. But he better be able to back > up his statements with something more substantial than "rope" and > his bogus arguments about fans and houses, i.e. > he should include some dimensionless numbers named after > famous physicists if he wants to get any credibility with > the crowd I hang out with. > > Tim. Actually there is no requirement to conserve molarity here, I would think. If the pressure inside drops, then there is less matter after the drop. Which brings up the question, with pull air flow the pressure inside the cabinet is less than or equal to the ambient. In push air flow it is greater than or equal to. Therefore, on pull there should be thermodynamic cooling effects while on push there would be heating effects. Is this enough to have an effect on the cooling ability of the configuration? Doug Weber ###### From: "Gerard S." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <38C813CD.16F931A6@aldon.com> Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Lines: 61 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2120.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Message-ID: <0xXx4.202$bt3.680@newsfeed.slurp.net> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:48:19 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.149.16.223 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 952648892 208.149.16.223 (Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:41:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:41:32 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51510 Douglas Weber wrote in message <38C813CD.16F931A6@aldon.com>... | |Tim Shoppa wrote: | |> Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote: |> > |> > On 6 Mar 2000 22:25:14 -0600, Dave wrote: |> > |> > ... |> > >Because it's *much* more efficient to pull air than to push it, for |> > >the same reasons it's easier to pull a rope along the ground than to |> > >push it. |> > |> > OK, I've posted a couple of very dumb questions to this group |> > recently, so here's another one: why? i.e. how do you know which side |> > of a fan is which? |> |> I've been trying to figure out Dave's comment as well. The |> flow of air *is* conserved; i.e. for every mole of air that you're |> pulling in the inlet, there's exactly mole of air going out the |> other side. So it's impossible to push without pulling, or to pull |> without pushing. |> |> (Unless Dave has figured out some way to create or destroy mass inside |> the fan, that is.) |> |> Now, if Dave wants to start talking about laminar vs turbulent |> flow, that's a different matter. But he better be able to back |> up his statements with something more substantial than "rope" and |> his bogus arguments about fans and houses, i.e. |> he should include some dimensionless numbers named after |> famous physicists if he wants to get any credibility with |> the crowd I hang out with. |> |> Tim. | |Actually there is no requirement to conserve molarity here, I would think. |If the pressure inside drops, then there is less matter after the drop. |Which brings up the question, with pull air flow the pressure inside the |cabinet is less than or equal to the ambient. In push air flow it is greater |than or equal to. Therefore, on pull there should be thermodynamic cooling |effects while on push there would be heating effects. Is this enough to |have an effect on the cooling ability of the configuration? | |Doug Weber ________________________________________________________ Try this: stand in front of a (floor) fan, say about 3 meters. Now we know that the fan sucks as much air as it blows. Now stand behind the fan, 3 meters. Feel any difference? Ya betcha. You won't feel anything behind a fan, even at one meter, you'll handly notice a draft. Air does have inertia. That's why we point fans in a particular direction. Gerard S. ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Message-ID: References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 02:26:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.25.255.240 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 952914368 63.25.255.240 (Sun, 12 Mar 2000 18:26:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 18:26:08 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51824 On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 21:27:37 GMT, drifkind@acm.deleteme.org (David Rifkind) wrote: >On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:55:23 GMT, jchausler wrote: >> >> >>Joshua Hesse wrote: >> >>> The problem was that the air coming into the cube would come in right >>> through the optical drive slot. (not enough vent holes) >>> Dust is bad for MO drives. Having all the dust-laden air come in through >>> that slot didn't help any. The fan was turned around later, of course. >>> >>> -Josh >> >>I don't believe its good for any removable disk drive. I've had lotsof problems >>with floppies due to this very situation. I wish they >>would build a separate "air-tight" box around the floppy drive(s) >>so the air being sucked into the box wouldn't come through the >>disk opening. It's even worse in an "industrial" environment. >>I normally keep a "sacrificial" floppy available to put in the >>drive and format before using the floppy I want to access/write. >>This usually cleans them enough. Over the phone, I always >>have customers take a new blank floppy and format it, then >>throw it away, before using the drive for real. > >I just had to blow about a year's worth of fluff out of my floppy drive >to make it work. Roedy Green used to say that the inside of his >computer looked like sheep had been nesting there. Mine looks like >sheep have been using it as a crack house. Back about 12 years ago, I was working as a programmer for the GIbson Guitar Corp. at their main plant here in Nashville, Tennessee. One day I was told to install a new circuit board in a PC located in an office next door to the guitar-sanding portion of the factory. When I opened up the computer case, I found so much sawdust inside that I marveled that the computer hadn't caught fire. I ended up having to take the computer outside and use an air hose to dust it out, as there was far too much dust to remove using a compressed air can. After this discovery, I understood why I had sinus trouble the whole time that I worked for Gibson. -- John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@poboxes.com PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/ -- "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 13 Mar 2000 04:38:37 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ahrcd$cgm$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <89maag$iqf$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <38BEC521.188FCC18@earthlink.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 952922317 12822 134.117.136.30 (13 Mar 2000 04:38:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2000 04:38:37 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51817 John F. Eldredge (eldredge@poboxes.com) writes: > > Back about 12 years ago, I was working as a programmer for the GIbson > Guitar Corp. at their main plant here in Nashville, Tennessee. One > day I was told to install a new circuit board in a PC located in an > office next door to the guitar-sanding portion of the factory. When I > opened up the computer case, I found so much sawdust inside that I > marveled that the computer hadn't caught fire. Apparently they couldn't make a good business case for a fire? > I ended up having to > take the computer outside and use an air hose to dust it out, as there > was far too much dust to remove using a compressed air can. After > this discovery, I understood why I had sinus trouble the whole time > that I worked for Gibson. Nashville music brings tears to my eyes and sniffles too. And barfing. B-) ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 13 Mar 2000 05:52:49 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8ahvnh$i8r$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 952926769 18715 134.117.136.30 (13 Mar 2000 05:52:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2000 05:52:49 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51816 Dave (Nunya@Business.net) writes: > > Why do you think PC fans blow out in the first place? Why do think the > fan in your bathroom blows out? Do you really want _that_ smell throughout the house? I think not. Bathrooms have a high humidity problem. The last time computers had a high humidity problem was when a water-cooled machine had a leak, (IBM 360-85); or an air conditioned raised-floor room was trying to cool a whole building, resulting in puddles under the floor where all the interesting IBM 370 cables lay. PC fans blow out because the manufacturers of power supplies have no connection to the design of the rest of the box. Their mandate is to deliver a component that delivers circa 250 Watts of DC, and the rest of the box be damned. Although the Divide-and-Conquer strategy is great for software, perhaps it's not great for hardware. Recently I've agonized - should the CPU replacement fan blow towards the heat sink, or suck? If only I could get some serious time on a 360-195 then I could model the variations. B-) ###### From: meowing@banet.net (Chunk Light Fluffy) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> Organization: If one may meow, all may meow. X-PEDOPHILE: BARRY BOUWSMA X-Meow: Wouf Mail-Copies-To: never Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.100.244.8 Date: 13 Mar 2000 05:53:31 GMT X-Trace: 13 Mar 2000 05:53:31 GMT, 32.100.244.8 Lines: 7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed.newsreader.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed2.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!meowing Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51811 Dave wrote: > Why do think the fan in your bathroom blows out? Because you move > more air thru a closed box by exhausting, not by blowing in. Bad example. A bathroom fan vents outside so the moisture, odor, etc. isn't pushed into the rest of the house. Same with range hood fans. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <0pcqcs8ujd056qj9jie1hqlpebkhmdogfr@4ax.com> References: <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:28:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 952972212 129.85.24.56 (Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:30:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:30:12 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51855 On 12 Mar 2000 23:01:06 -0600, Dave wrote: [ snip ] >Why do you think PC fans blow out in the first place? Why do think the >fan in your bathroom blows out? Because you move more air thru a closed >box by exhausting, not by blowing in. > >Dave I would think the direction of bathroom fan is determined by the smells, not aerodynamics ;-) [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: "Simo Tuominen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:35:27 +0200 Organization: Heinrich Heine Universitaet Duesseldorf Lines: 53 Message-ID: <8akpqc$knn@poseidon.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lan1.miu.uni-duesseldorf.de X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51863 "Dave" wrote in message news:38CC7650.28284035@Business.net... > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > > > All my HP and Tek equipment have fans that blow in. > > > > This was even true on the 585 oscilloscope, that drew about 650 watts. > > > > So Dave is right, HP and Tektronix are wrong. Funny that not one > > of the thousands of engineers at those firms figured this out. > > > > Another thing, if the fan blows out, then dust comes in through every > > little hole and poor-fitting edge. If the fan blows in, you only need to > > put > > ONE filter over the fan to catch the dust. > > If the equipment in question is *designed* to have air fored in, it can > work OK. But in a typical PC where you have multiple items in different > locations generating heat (CPU here, hard drives there, graphics board > over there), pulling air thru is much better than forcing it in. Picture this: my room, yesterday. A CPU is having overheating problems. I turn every fan around so that I have one fan blowing in at the bottom, and two fen suck the used air out. Also, I turn the CPU fan so that it sucks air through the profile instead of blowing into it. Result: case temperature drops 10+ 'C, CPU temperature drops 20+ 'C. Also, the noise level dropped considerably. :) > I'm really surprised at the controversy there seems to be around this. > It's easily demonstrated. Take your PC cooling fan and turn it around > so it blows in. The case (and insides) will be much warmer. That would depend on where the "cooling" fan is. If you mean the PSU fan, you may have to turn it around so that it *doesn't* blow in. > Why do you think PC fans blow out in the first place? Why do think the > fan in your bathroom blows out? Because you move more air thru a closed > box by exhausting, not by blowing in. The bathroom fan blows out because you want the humid air out. ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:01:11 -0600 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8ajova$4sl$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg2.micro.umn.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51785 Dave wrote in message <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net>... > >I'm really surprised at the controversy there seems to be around this. >It's easily demonstrated. Take your PC cooling fan and turn it around >so it blows in. The case (and insides) will be much warmer. The case could quite conceivably be warmer. That's because the fan is usually in the power supply, which will get first dibs on the coolesr air and pre-warm it before the rest of the components get the air. This is probably a good thing, as a goodly percentage of heat-related failures are in the power supply. Then again, maybe you're better off cooling your $500 CPU chip instead of the $120 power supply. Also a warmer case may be good, it means more heat is radiating away by radiation and convection. You still havent explained how it's a good thing to have extra dust sucked in. > >Why do you think PC fans blow out in the first place? Why do think the >fan in your bathroom blows out? Because you move more air thru a closed >box by exhausting, not by blowing in. > >Dave ###### From: "Greg Menke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:35:25 -0500 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8ajqlp$678$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <8ajova$4sl$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> X-Trace: MRYDF4bHd+n6gksx0XYmgAoXTH/uzw38EjK28FjYos7a1Ex4+MmPlQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2000 22:38:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51882 > >I'm really surprised at the controversy there seems to be around this. > >It's easily demonstrated. Take your PC cooling fan and turn it around > >so it blows in. The case (and insides) will be much warmer. What is the difference in cfm for the 2 airflow directions? And what is the temperature difference of some of the parts of the system as a consequence? The important variable isn't the surface case temperature, but the temperature of the parts inside it. > > > >Why do you think PC fans blow out in the first place? Why do think the > >fan in your bathroom blows out? Because you move more air thru a closed > >box by exhausting, not by blowing in. Because you don't want to suck outside air (hot in summer, cold in winter) into the bathroom. cfm is a measure of how much air moves. It doesn't matter in which direction; though a particular fan might move more air in one direction than the other as a consequence of the distribution of pressures. Fans can easily give very different performance when exhausting or injecting at the same point. It wouldn't suprise me a bit if those little muffin fans are lots better at exhausting a case than blowing into it. A proper test will require fan selection to maintain a similar cfm in both directions. Its possible blowing air into a case improves heat removal because the air will circulate more vigorously, reducing the liklihood of deadspots where air isn't being exchanged. No doubt this point has already been made. Even if more air moves when exhausting, the point is to move it across the hot parts- so possibly a lower but more turbulent cfm removes more heat than a higher-cfm but somewhat laminar flow. You can test this yourself. Compare how much more effective at cooling you off a fan is when it blows into the room rather than when exhausting it. But, exhausting may be better for other reasons (reduces the # of mosquitos being injected into your house...). Gregm ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:31:53 GMT Organization: Easynet Group plc Lines: 49 Message-ID: <8al14v$pha$5@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <8ajova$4sl$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8ajqlp$678$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 953026527 26154 194.154.98.206 (14 Mar 2000 09:35:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 09:35:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.ebone.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51924 In article <8ajqlp$678$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Greg Menke" wrote: > >> >I'm really surprised at the controversy there seems to be around this. >> >It's easily demonstrated. Take your PC cooling fan and turn it around >> >so it blows in. The case (and insides) will be much warmer. > >What is the difference in cfm for the 2 airflow directions? And what is the >temperature difference of some of the parts of the system as a consequence? >The important variable isn't the surface case temperature, but the >temperature of the parts inside it. > >> > >> >Why do you think PC fans blow out in the first place? Why do think the >> >fan in your bathroom blows out? Because you move more air thru a closed >> >box by exhausting, not by blowing in. > >Because you don't want to suck outside air (hot in summer, cold in winter) >into the bathroom. cfm is a measure of how much air moves. It doesn't >matter in which direction; though a particular fan might move more air in >one direction than the other as a consequence of the distribution of >pressures. Fans can easily give very different performance when exhausting >or injecting at the same point. It wouldn't suprise me a bit if those >little muffin fans are lots better at exhausting a case than blowing into >it. A proper test will require fan selection to maintain a similar cfm in >both directions. > >Its possible blowing air into a case improves heat removal because the air >will circulate more vigorously, reducing the liklihood of deadspots where >air isn't being exchanged. No doubt this point has already been made. Even >if more air moves when exhausting, the point is to move it across the hot >parts- so possibly a lower but more turbulent cfm removes more heat than a >higher-cfm but somewhat laminar flow. > >You can test this yourself. Compare how much more effective at cooling you >off a fan is when it blows into the room rather than when exhausting it. >But, exhausting may be better for other reasons (reduces the # of mosquitos >being injected into your house...). > >Gregm > > Just a thunk...maybe it's the sucking through that's efficient due to high volume through small hole = fast flow? And from that maybe more turbulence? -- barnacle http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk ###### From: "Greg Menke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:02:31 -0500 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8algvv$dcr$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <8ajova$4sl$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8ajqlp$678$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <8al14v$pha$5@quince.news.easynet.net> X-Trace: v0IVRHTQBSJAJAo0hZLERGGL03kwHxEQm/5ArDuxR8DmeVf0LrqFqg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 14:05:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51895 > > Just a thunk...maybe it's the sucking through that's efficient due to high > volume through small hole = fast flow? And from that maybe more turbulence? > As I understand it (not very well), the airstreams will tend to be smooth, following a path of least resistance from each gap in the case to the power supply, then out. There will be some turbulence, but at a vastly smaller scale than if a fan were blowing into the case. The CPU fan is probably ensuring there's plenty of air circulation inside the case- and aux fans blowing inwards from the front will also help generate turbulence. Intake fans blowing into the case will help out the psu fan exhaust air. So given equal cfm, maybe there isn't much difference caused by the direction of the psu fan anyway... There are equations which allow a reasonable approximation of fan performance given variables like duct size, length, geometry. Solving them yields some parameters indicating the pressure differential a fan must generate in order to move a given amount of air. HVAC people use them all the time. The HVAC book I have doesn't get into fluid mechanics, not too suprising given that its something of a black art (to me at least). Gregm ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 14 Mar 2000 09:51:59 -0500 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <952992596.464869@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 953045520 10141 166.84.0.226 (14 Mar 2000 14:52:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 14:52:00 GMT X-Newsposter: trn 4.0-test55 (26 Feb 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51945 .... pc fans SUCK! BLOW! IN! OUT! Huff! Puff! > - PSUs generate a lot of heat themselves, therefore it makes sense > to force airflow through the PSU. I agree that the power supply unit needs cooling but why can't that be INDEPENDENT of the rest of the PC? my idea: Power supply is sealed on the inside: has 2 ports for air in and out from the outside. A squirrel fan is used to blow FILTERED air INTO the rest of the PC. Squirrel fans are teriffic for creating BLOWING but have about NO suction power. There's a REASON that furnaces, ventilators and such all use SQUIRREL fans: they're significantly more efficient at blowing. The main reason this isn't used for consumer PCS: it requires more space. "Muffin" fans are smaller and more compact than squirrel fans. But when reliability supercedes space requirements, real good cases ought to be available! Most motherboards now use "3 wire" fans: the 3rd wire is a sensor that detect rotation. The motherboard monitors that wire and had a tachometer circuit so you can read the fan SPEEDS and detect fan failure before it totally burns up! (bad bearings make the fan slower but not totally stop). -- Jeffrey Jonas jeffj@panix(dot)com The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide ###### Message-ID: <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:49:02 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <952992596.464869@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader3.news.uu.net 953052543 4532 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.idt.net!news-feeder2.wcg.net!WCG!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader3.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51897 Jeff Jonas wrote: > > .... pc fans SUCK! BLOW! IN! OUT! Huff! Puff! > > > - PSUs generate a lot of heat themselves, therefore it makes sense > > to force airflow through the PSU. > > I agree that the power supply unit needs cooling but why can't that > be INDEPENDENT of the rest of the PC? It *is* independent of the rest of the PC, if you're using something other than a PC-clone. Most all computers in existence had sound engineering principles applied to cooling the electronics inside. PC-clones generally don't, and that's why you need all these dorky "CPU fans" and "disk coolers" just to keep your system from melting down. Tim. ###### From: mdeen@xs4.xs4all.nl (Maarten Deen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 14 Mar 2000 18:26:39 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, Networking for the masses Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <952992596.464869@shelley.paradise.net.nz> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xs4.xs4all.nl X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 953054801 20672 194.109.6.45 (14 Mar 2000 17:26:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 17:26:41 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!xs4.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51873 Tim Shoppa writes: >Jeff Jonas wrote: >> >> .... pc fans SUCK! BLOW! IN! OUT! Huff! Puff! >> >> > - PSUs generate a lot of heat themselves, therefore it makes sense >> > to force airflow through the PSU. >> >> I agree that the power supply unit needs cooling but why can't that >> be INDEPENDENT of the rest of the PC? >It *is* independent of the rest of the PC, if you're using something >other than a PC-clone. How is that meant? If 'independant' is meant like in 'the PSU has it's own fan and controlled airflow which does not go into the case and the case has it's own fan', than I'd like you to rethink. Any sun3 pizzabox, sun4 lunchbox and sun4 pizzabox has a (or more) fan blowing in through the PSU and through the box. Exactly like all home PC's I know. Never had any problems with it, I must say. Not if you keep within the limitations the case is designed for. >Most all computers in existence had sound engineering principles >applied to cooling the electronics inside. PC-clones generally >don't, and that's why you need all these dorky "CPU fans" and >"disk coolers" just to keep your system from melting down. CPU fans are not limited to PC-clones only. Higher MHz'ed Alphas have them. The 170MHz sun sparcstation 5 too IIRC. Please amuse me and call them 'not soundly engineered'. Maarten ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Message-ID: <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> Originator: hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Sender: hoh@lorelei.approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test66 (4 June 1998) References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:51:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.215.101 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 953067486 130.244.215.101 (Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:58:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:58:06 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52005 In article <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl>, Maarten Deen wrote: > Any sun3 pizzabox, sun4 lunchbox and sun4 pizzabox has a (or more) fan > blowing in through the PSU and through the box. Exactly like all home > PC's I know. No. It is exactly the reverse of a PC. The air enters the PC through the floppy drive, deposits dust in it, wrestles with the maze of flat cables, and finaly finds the PSU with its fan and escapes through it. -- Göran Larsson hoh AT approve DOT se I was an atheist, http://home DOT swipnet DOT se/hoh/ until I found out I was God. ###### From: TheCentralScrutinizer.187@pobox.com () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> Reply-To: TheCentralScrutinizer.187@pobox.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Lines: 14 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:06:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.228.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.tx.home.com 953067975 24.4.228.121 (Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:06:15 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:06:15 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feeder.via.net!24.0.94.134.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52029 On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:51:22 GMT, Goran Larsson wrote: >In article <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl>, >Maarten Deen wrote: > >> Any sun3 pizzabox, sun4 lunchbox and sun4 pizzabox has a (or more) fan >> blowing in through the PSU and through the box. Exactly like all home >> PC's I know. > >No. It is exactly the reverse of a PC. The air enters the PC through the >floppy drive, deposits dust in it, wrestles with the maze of flat cables, >and finaly finds the PSU with its fan and escapes through it. Until about 3 years ago when the ATX case was introduced that works the other way around. (air enters the PS and is blown into the PC's interior) ###### From: mdeen@xs4.xs4all.nl (Maarten Deen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 15 Mar 2000 10:01:38 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, Networking for the masses Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8anjhi$b65$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: xs4.xs4all.nl X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 953110900 19101 194.109.6.45 (15 Mar 2000 09:01:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Mar 2000 09:01:40 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!xs4.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51954 hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) writes: >In article <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl>, >Maarten Deen wrote: >> Any sun3 pizzabox, sun4 lunchbox and sun4 pizzabox has a (or more) fan >> blowing in through the PSU and through the box. Exactly like all home >> PC's I know. >No. It is exactly the reverse of a PC. The air enters the PC through the >floppy drive, deposits dust in it, wrestles with the maze of flat cables, >and finaly finds the PSU with its fan and escapes through it. You're right that I wasn't entirely correct, I put it the wrong way round. To rephrase my comments about sun boxes: the sun4c lunchbox does the same as a PC, but the sun4 large pizzabox (sparcstation 4/5/10/20) does not: it sucks air in over the PSU and then blows it through the case. Cheers, Maarten ###### From: Luc Van der Veken Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Organization: . Message-ID: References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:45:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.123.10.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pandora.be X-Trace: afrodite.telenet-ops.be 953145916 212.123.10.206 (Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:45:16 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:45:16 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!afrodite.telenet-ops.be!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52003 Goran Larsson wrote: > ... The air enters the PC through the > floppy drive, deposits dust in it, wrestles with the maze of flat cables, > and finaly finds the PSU with its fan and escapes through it. But that's only half of the story. As every smoker can tell you, cigarette smoke enters through the CD drives, the laser and lens of which form perfect surfaces to deposit a film on. A CD-R[W] drive starts failing after approximately a year, and a plain CD-ROM after 18 to 24 months. The positive side is that you're always using the latest CD hardware - for some people this may in fact be a valid reason not to stop smoking. At current, I am testing how long DVD drives last (partly because Microsoft decided to start providing MSDN on DVD as of January, but please don't tell my boss that CD's are still available too). Based on previous observations, I would like to present the following two (general) theorems: 1) A drive's life expectancy in a cigarette smoke environment is inversely proportional to the amount of smoke in cigarettes per day and per cubic meter of office volume, and to the square root of its cost. 2) The same expectancy, measured from the time the first disc is read, is proportional to the logarithm of the ratio between its distance from the ashtray and its own width (and indeed, building the ashtray into the drive should be expected to make its lifetime negative). BTW [seriously], I noticed in recent Compaq Deskpro's (at least in the last ones I got) that they now leave an ugly opening of 2-3 mm between the drive fronts: could this be intentional to create an easier way in for the air? Or was this done to make it easier for the bugs to get out? ###### Message-ID: <38CFF3AD.34D8ACA1@fspdc.uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.40 X-Trace: uchinews 953152405 128.135.145.40 (Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:33:25 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:33:25 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:33:49 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52142 Luc Van der Veken wrote: > The positive side is that you're always using the latest CD > hardware - for some people this may in fact be a valid reason not > to stop smoking. This was of course related to Philip Morris buying into CDROM production. Or was it Micro$oft? One packet of Marlboro 2000 Professional's please...in a soft pack if you would be so kind. Simon ###### From: "Simo Tuominen" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 23:38:46 +0200 Organization: Freenet Finland Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8aqt1b$9na6$1@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-05.evitech.fi X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.defero.net!news.bbnetworks.net!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52163 "Goran Larsson" wrote in message news:2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se... > In article <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl>, > Maarten Deen wrote: > > > Any sun3 pizzabox, sun4 lunchbox and sun4 pizzabox has a (or more) fan > > blowing in through the PSU and through the box. Exactly like all home > > PC's I know. > > No. It is exactly the reverse of a PC. The air enters the PC through the Open mouth, insert foot? > floppy drive, deposits dust in it, wrestles with the maze of flat cables, > and finaly finds the PSU with its fan and escapes through it. That, my dear, would depend on the PSU in question. ATX PSUs generally(?) have a fan which sucks air through the PSU and blows the heated air in the case, whereas every AT PSU I know of sucks air from within the case and blows the air through the PSU and out. Hell, I'll rather have a practically useless floppy drive fail after a few years than risk a more expensive CPU. ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38d0f06a.6147261@news.freeuk.net> References: <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <38C813CD.16F931A6@aldon.com> <0xXx4.202$bt3.680@newsfeed.slurp.net> <38CC790B.AB99C12D@Business.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:32:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.145.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 953217136 212.126.145.201 (Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:32:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:32:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52083 What about those overclockers who rig their CPU coolers up to the air conditioning? Cooooool. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38d1f06f.6152109@news.freeuk.net> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:32:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.145.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 953217140 212.126.145.201 (Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:32:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:32:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newshub.bart.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52085 On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:06:15 GMT, TheCentralScrutinizer.187@pobox.com () sprachen: >Until about 3 years ago when the ATX case was introduced that works the >other way around. (air enters the PS and is blown into the PC's interior) Wasn't that supposed to be a cheap hack so the air could blow over the CPU heatsink, and you wouldn't need a separate CPU fan? That lasted, obviously. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### From: "Luc Van der Veken" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:48:12 +0100 Organization: Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8ar38c$u38$1@news0.skynet.be> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> <8aqt1b$9na6$1@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup188.brussels2.skynet.be X-Trace: news0.skynet.be 953225292 30824 195.238.23.188 (16 Mar 2000 16:48:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@skynet.be NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 2000 16:48:12 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!poster!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52059 "Simo Tuominen" wrote > That, my dear, would depend on the PSU in question. ATX PSUs > generally(?) have a fan which sucks air through the PSU and blows the > heated air in the case, whereas every AT PSU I know of sucks air from > within the case and blows the air through the PSU and out. Hell, I'll > rather have a practically useless floppy drive fail after a few years > than risk a more expensive CPU. Frankly, I still have to meet my first power supply (ATX or not, be it Compaq, Dell or no-name clone) that doesn't blow the hot air out. What brands of machines are you guys using actually? And is it *really* true that Sun machines try to overheat the processor? ###### Message-ID: <38D116D2.D0B28E69@fspdc.uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> <38d1f06f.6152109@news.freeuk.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.145.40 X-Trace: uchinews 953226961 128.135.145.40 (Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:16:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:16:01 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 11:16:02 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52137 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: > > >Until about 3 years ago when the ATX case was introduced that works the > >other way around. (air enters the PS and is blown into the PC's interior) > > Wasn't that supposed to be a cheap hack so the air could blow over the > CPU heatsink, and you wouldn't need a separate CPU fan? That lasted, > obviously. > We use Dell GX1 PC's for our Linux servers and they've got one fan for the CPU and one for the power supply. Both suck (literally) But the CPU fan has a cute green plastic thing that resembles a windtunnel. It clips onto the heatsink and funnels the air across it. I can't actually see anyway for the air to get out. Simon ###### Message-ID: <38D16624.DC1D44F5@mbox301.swipnet.se> From: Ronnie Sahlberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) References: <88pf5o$hgq@netaxs.com> <89b2p3$96e$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38B9E86F.F32B7A3C@bellatlantic.net> <1b9005rit3.fsf@viper.cs.nmsu.edu> <38bc0a43_1@news.wizvax.net> <8a0n7l$1hu8$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> <38c6f9d3.6027162@nnrp.gol.com> <38C54174.52B72D89@trailing-edge.com> <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <38CC7650.28284035@Business.net> <8akpqc$knn@poseidon.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:54:28 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.11.168 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 953247242 130.244.11.168 (Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:54:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:54:02 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52121 Simo Tuominen wrote: > > The bathroom fan blows out because you want the humid air out. In the north of europe: The fan blows outwards because you do _not_ want -30C air to hit your body when you leave the shovers! ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> <8aqt1b$9na6$1@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 953259720 207.91.187.171 (Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:22:00 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:22:00 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 02:22:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.randori.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52154 Simo Tuominen wrote: > That, my dear, would depend on the PSU in question. ATX PSUs > generally(?) have a fan which sucks air through the PSU and blows the > heated air in the case, whereas every AT PSU I know of sucks air from > within the case and blows the air through the PSU and out. My ATX fans blow out. On my ATX machines, there are air holes and/or fans blowing in to provide a better path for air to enter the machine. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: s.c.sprong@student.utwente.nl (S.C.Sprong) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Disk array blinkenlights (was Re: Anybody want an O26 keypunch?) Date: 17 Mar 2000 02:44:26 GMT Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8as66a$4548r$1@fu-berlin.de> References: <8a6bmk$j4j$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> <8aljmf$27b$1@panix.com> <38CE272E.6FC82257@trailing-edge.com> <8alsof$g7p$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> <2000Mar14.205122.25329@lorelei.approve.se> <8aqt1b$9na6$1@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> <8ar38c$u38$1@news0.skynet.be> Reply-To: s.c.sprong@student.utwente.nl NNTP-Posting-Host: wit381007.student.utwente.nl (130.89.232.187) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 953261066 4362523 130.89.232.187 (16 [21098]) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.hrz.uni-kassel.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!wit381007.student.utwente.NL!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:52039 Luc Van der Veken wrote: >"Simo Tuominen" wrote [ statement: ATX PSU's suck, AT PSU's blow ] >>Hell, I'll rather have a practically useless floppy drive fail after a >>few years than risk a more expensive CPU. Personaly I rate good quality floppy drives higher than x86 CPU's because they tend to be used for a longer time. Crappy floppy drives go straight into the garbage bin. >Frankly, I still have to meet my first power supply (ATX or not, be it >Compaq, Dell or no-name clone) that doesn't blow the hot air out. One boring datapoint: the power supply of my ATX PSU ('Sparklepower', made in Taiwan) transports the air into the case. I remember that back in 1996/ 1997 PC computer magazines made a big deal about that feature. The coolest air would blow over the CPU and its surrounding heat sinks, which on an ATX motherboard are located right under the power supply. I also have an early 1990's DecStation 5000/33, which has one fan blowing air into the case, aimed at the mushroom shaped cooling tower that is glued on the CPU. scsprong