From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:51:39 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 43 Message-ID: <38AEADFB.71DAD3AB@trailing-edge.com> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 950989900 22666 63.73.218.130 (19 Feb 2000 19:51:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 19:51:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50024 Megan wrote: > > "Alan H. Martin" writes: > > >Hey, I remain pissed off at the sanitizing of PDP-10 references from > >the file. But he doesn't make any personal claims about the chronology, > >just relates what others have told him. > > I'm with you... I'll never forgive him for what he has done to the > file. I'm not so sure the changes were all for the worse. Sure, there were PDP-10 things excised that I would've left in, but the editor has to draw the line between "arcana" and "jargon" somewhere. And some of the entries have gone from "computer-hacker jargon" to "mainstream slang" in the meantime, too. > Any idea where I can find a pre-munged (is *mung* still there?) > copy of it? There's a version from 1981 or so in the [374,1] directory of the Fall 1981 RSX-11 SIGtape. If you don't have all the RSX sigtapes handy there, Megan, you can find this particular file over the web at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/jargon.txt If you look at Joe Smith's archive of alt.sys.pdp10 stuff at http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/jargon you'll find some of the differences between the "old jargon" and "new jargon" entries discussed. The actual separation out of the "old" PDP-10 entries was discussed at great length in the very early 90's on alt.folklore.computers; if anyone knows where these discussions may have been archived, I'd be very interested in snarfing copies. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:43:23 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 45 Message-ID: <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 951176604 28048 63.73.218.130 (21 Feb 2000 23:43:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2000 23:43:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50157 Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Megan wrote: > > > > "Alan H. Martin" writes: > > > > >Hey, I remain pissed off at the sanitizing of PDP-10 references from > > >the file. But he doesn't make any personal claims about the chronology, > > >just relates what others have told him. > > > > I'm with you... I'll never forgive him for what he has done to the > > file. > > Hear hear. And I thought I was the only one to dislike Raymonds > munging. (Hmmm, I think I heard that MRC didn't like it either, > but I'm not sure...) I don't think that what ESR removed was all that drastic. Yes, he excised a few PDP-10 specific references - but *not* very many. By my count (see my postings from a few months ago on this subject, or the copy at Joe Smith's archive at http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/jargon ) only 8 entries disappeared. Yes, some of those 8 entries have historical importance, and *I* would've left them in myself, but it's not so awful that they were removed. > > Any idea where I can find a pre-munged (is *mung* still there?) > > copy of it? > > Should be available here and there, I think. If nothing else helpes, > I guess I could go hunting our PS: for it. It's there on the RSX CD-ROM archives I sent you, Johnny. The [374,1] directory of the Fall 1981 RSX SIG tape. It's also available over the web (didn't I just say this a day or two ago?) at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/jargon.txt -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:03:07 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 951184989 5893 63.73.218.130 (22 Feb 2000 02:03:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2000 02:03:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50155 Christopher C Stacy wrote: > > Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX > to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. It depends on the hacker :-). I, for one, am a proud owner of a copy of _The Unix-Hater's Handbook_ by Garfinkel, Weise, and Strassmann. It's not a perfect book - many of the contributors were so enraged by Unix's superficial design faults that they never got around to discussing its fundamental design faults - but it's a very worthwhile and enjoyable resource. What's truly sad is that there's a whole new generation - called "slashdotters" after the weenie web site where they hang out at - that have never seen an OS better than Linux. To quote Ken Pier of Xerox PARC: I liken starting one's computing career with Unix, say as an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the natural condition and they live within it. By the time they find out differently, it is too late. They already think that the writing of shell scripts is a natural act. Tim. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:28:22 GMT References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50164 Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:37:09 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-QkIwzMAygWarx9fwXIJF26VOZPL/MgG2O9ba8ISjOGF7QBc3O9EqKhgN7HykfhX7VtMZ2RPppJGdESa!QGUiDGXf1S5XKQpLZIaxdg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:37:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50121 On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:28:22 GMT, Christopher C Stacy wrote: >Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX >to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. Ah, I see. All of the complaining is from embittered old ITS hackers pissed off that their beloved OS has sunk beneath the waves. I miss OS/2, too, but I don't dedicate a chunk of my brainpower to it any more...there are too many other interesting systems to play with. Like ITS that much? Build a PDP-10 emulator and RUN IT! ESR's changing of those refs seems to me to make the entries in question more universally understandable. Lots of folks like Unix, whether you choose to admit and understand it or not. Many, many fewer like MS-DOS. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 29 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:24:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 951193494 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:24:54 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:24:54 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50150 In article <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa wrote: >It depends on the hacker :-). I, for one, am a proud owner of >a copy of _The Unix-Hater's Handbook_ by Garfinkel, Weise, and >Strassmann. It's not a perfect book - many of the contributors >were so enraged by Unix's superficial design faults that they >never got around to discussing its fundamental design faults - >but it's a very worthwhile and enjoyable resource. FWIW, a lot of the "Unix" flaws these people talk about are either flaws in programming languages, or simply *misunderstandings* of Unix interfaces. Unix is an awful MS-DOS clone, and a fairly poor Mac. It's a pretty good Unix. >What's truly sad is that there's a whole new generation - called >"slashdotters" after the weenie web site where they hang out at - >that have never seen an OS better than Linux. Uh-huh. As a BSD bigot, I'd rather see Linux in that position than Windows, but it's still frustrating. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### Message-ID: <38B22CAC.DF6EE7EF@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 59 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:29:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 951200941 194.16.221.2 (Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:29:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:29:01 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50141 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > Megan wrote: > > > > > > "Alan H. Martin" writes: > > > > > > >Hey, I remain pissed off at the sanitizing of PDP-10 references from > > > >the file. But he doesn't make any personal claims about the chronology, > > > >just relates what others have told him. > > > > > > I'm with you... I'll never forgive him for what he has done to the > > > file. > > > > Hear hear. And I thought I was the only one to dislike Raymonds > > munging. (Hmmm, I think I heard that MRC didn't like it either, > > but I'm not sure...) > > I don't think that what ESR removed was all that drastic. > Yes, he excised a few PDP-10 specific references - but *not* > very many. By my count (see my postings from a few months ago > on this subject, or the copy at Joe Smith's archive at > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/jargon > > ) only 8 entries disappeared. Yes, some of those 8 entries have > historical importance, and *I* would've left them in myself, but > it's not so awful that they were removed. Hmmm. I seem to remmeber, from browsing the files, that I easily could find more than eight removed entries... Maybe I should look again. (Or maybe I just overreactive from all the new crud that got stuffed in there.) > > > Any idea where I can find a pre-munged (is *mung* still there?) > > > copy of it? > > > > Should be available here and there, I think. If nothing else helpes, > > I guess I could go hunting our PS: for it. > > It's there on the RSX CD-ROM archives I sent you, Johnny. The > [374,1] directory of the Fall 1981 RSX SIG tape. It's also available > over the web (didn't I just say this a day or two ago?) at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/jargon.txt You did say it. Don't mean I didn't post before your information though. :-) (And JARGON.TXT wasn't the first thing I started looking for on the RSX freeware CD. Excellent item by the way.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### Message-ID: <38B24089.96D370B2@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 50 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:53:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 951206037 194.16.221.2 (Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:53:57 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:53:57 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50133 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Christopher C Stacy wrote: > > > > Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX > > to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. I don't know which version of the JARGON.TXT you've been reading (probably jargon.txt instead), Cristopher. JARGON.TXT whacks down on Unix pretty hard. Anyone who think JARGON.TXT is advocating Unix should know that this is also something that Raymond did, along with adding MS-DOS stuff. > It depends on the hacker :-). I, for one, am a proud owner of > a copy of _The Unix-Hater's Handbook_ by Garfinkel, Weise, and > Strassmann. It's not a perfect book - many of the contributors > were so enraged by Unix's superficial design faults that they > never got around to discussing its fundamental design faults - > but it's a very worthwhile and enjoyable resource. I really guess I should read it sometime. I think I would ejoy it. > What's truly sad is that there's a whole new generation - called > "slashdotters" after the weenie web site where they hang out at - > that have never seen an OS better than Linux. To quote > Ken Pier of Xerox PARC: > > I liken starting one's computing career with Unix, say as > an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is > intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you > are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. > But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the > natural condition and they live within it. By the time they > find out differently, it is too late. They already think > that the writing of shell scripts is a natural act. Yup. This is what I'm complaining about... Thanks for an excellent name for them. Never heard it before. "slashdotters". I like name calling. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:52:57 GMT References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50156 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:37:09 GMT, Jay Maynard ("Jay") writes: Jay> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:28:22 GMT, Christopher C Stacy Jay> wrote: >> Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX >> to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. Jay> Ah, I see. Jay> All of the complaining is from embittered old ITS hackers pissed off that Jay> their beloved OS has sunk beneath the waves. I made a remark about string replacing "UNIX" with "MS-DOS", and am unable to comprehend your bizarre message about ITS. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:56:24 GMT References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50163 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:37:09 GMT, Jay Maynard ("Jay") writes: Jay> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:28:22 GMT, Christopher C Stacy Jay> wrote: >> Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX >> to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. Jay> Ah, I see. Jay> All of the complaining is from embittered old ITS hackers pissed off that Jay> their beloved OS has sunk beneath the waves. I made a remark about string replacing "UNIX" with "MS-DOS", and am unable to comprehend your bizarre message about ITS. ITS was rather specific to the PDP-10, and never ran on the same hardware that UNIX or MS-DOS run on. (However, you can run a PDP-10 emulator on any of those things now, and run ITS on top of that. It's been run on SUN boxes and Macintosh laptops and all kinds of things.) ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:03:48 GMT References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> <38B24089.96D370B2@netinsight.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50160 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:53:57 GMT, Johnny Billquist ("Johnny") writes: Johnny> I don't know which version of the JARGON.TXT you've been reading (probably Johnny> jargon.txt instead), Cristopher. Johnny> JARGON.TXT whacks down on Unix pretty hard. Anyone who think JARGON.TXT Johnny> is advocating Unix should know that this is also something that Raymond Johnny> did, along with adding MS-DOS stuff. Uh, that's what I said? ###### Message-ID: <38B2785C.F8E61DF3@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> <38B24089.96D370B2@netinsight.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:51:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 951220316 194.16.221.2 (Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:51:56 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:51:56 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50137 Christopher C Stacy wrote: > > >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:53:57 GMT, Johnny Billquist ("Johnny") writes: > Johnny> I don't know which version of the JARGON.TXT you've been reading (probably > Johnny> jargon.txt instead), Cristopher. > Johnny> JARGON.TXT whacks down on Unix pretty hard. Anyone who think JARGON.TXT > Johnny> is advocating Unix should know that this is also something that Raymond > Johnny> did, along with adding MS-DOS stuff. > > Uh, that's what I said? Oh? I thought you said that hackers love Unix, and that Unix got replaced with MS-DOS in JARGON.TXT. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:24:46 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 18 Message-ID: <88utj3$rnb$2@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.238.176 X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 951253411 28395 194.168.238.176 (22 Feb 2000 21:03:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2000 21:03:31 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50188 > What's truly sad is that there's a whole new generation - called > "slashdotters" after the weenie web site where they hang out at - > that have never seen an OS better than Linux. To quote > Ken Pier of Xerox PARC: > I stopped reading Slashdot when I realised the mentality of some of the posters. I would sometimes post a response to a thread, usually to consider a different techology. I'd often receive a response to the effect "Are you on crack!", or even worse. I sometimes would receive abusive emails from people I'd angered. Sometimes it is not much different to the letters pages of early 80s micro magazines. And the majority are ignorant of computer history, too! I am a firm believer in using the best technology for the job, no matter who produced it. These views don't often go down well on Slashdot. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:11:40 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-HuS8ZcxnfQfBCWq/PmOsWVeJwT6JxpFwwQ3g6N7IwCDdoU8BY75Rkuw5CvX4L5i5tyl2PuT6Dzi1lCm!vIlhFQ0rCxVV6oNpcFIs9g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:11:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50200 On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:56:24 GMT, Christopher C Stacy wrote: > Jay> Ah, I see. > Jay> All of the complaining is from embittered old ITS hackers pissed off that > Jay> their beloved OS has sunk beneath the waves. >I made a remark about string replacing "UNIX" with "MS-DOS", >and am unable to comprehend your bizarre message about ITS. You mean there are Unix haters who never touched ITS? Amazing. I'd thought that that was the font of all that vitriol. (Unless you're one of the legion of NT admins who think that any OS that doesn't come from Redmond automatically sucks, but I doubt that strongly in your case. You seem too intelligent for that.) >ITS was rather specific to the PDP-10, and never ran on the same >hardware that UNIX or MS-DOS run on. (However, you can run a PDP-10 >emulator on any of those things now, and run ITS on top of that. >It's been run on SUN boxes and Macintosh laptops and all kinds of things.) I hadn't heard that anyone had ITS running on a -10 emulator... (To forestall an argument: No, I don't think Unix is the be-all and end-all of OSes, but I do believe it's a superior programmer's environment for lots of things, and there are more than a few concepts that Unix got right and other OSes designed today still get wrong. Even so, there are places Unix is not best suited. (I say that as I run yet another OS/360 gen on another machine...)) ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 22 Feb 2000 20:47:45 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 12 Approved: peter Message-ID: <88uslh$hea@web.nmti.com> References: <38B24089.96D370B2@netinsight.se> <38B2785C.F8E61DF3@netinsight.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.nmti.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!netscum.int!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!web.nmti.com!peter Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50193 In article <38B2785C.F8E61DF3@netinsight.se>, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Oh? I thought you said that hackers love Unix, and that Unix got replaced with > MS-DOS in JARGON.TXT. I think your sarcasm module is overdue for its 50,000 gripe checkup. -- In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva `-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 'U` "I *am* $PHB" -- Skud. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 22 Feb 2000 21:15:14 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 12 Message-ID: <88uu92$mu1$1@eve.enteract.com> References: <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.41 X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50206 Christopher C Stacy wrote: > Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX > to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. I've just taken a look through JARGON.TXT (version of July 22, 1981) and can't find a single reference, positive or negative, to either Unix *or* MS-DOS. There are, however, a few disparaging comments made about Multics. I have certain disagreements with Eric Raymond myself, but I can't see the basis for this particular claim. eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:45:03 GMT References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50214 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:11:40 GMT, Jay Maynard ("Jay") writes: Jay> I hadn't heard that anyone had ITS running on a -10 emulator... I think that ITS was the first thing to run on the first PDP-10 emulator (KLH-10), quite a few years ago. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:46:40 GMT References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> <38B24089.96D370B2@netinsight.se> <38B2785C.F8E61DF3@netinsight.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!coop.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50216 >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:51:56 GMT, Johnny Billquist ("Johnny") writes: Johnny> Christopher C Stacy wrote: >> >> >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:53:57 GMT, Johnny Billquist ("Johnny") writes: Johnny> I don't know which version of the JARGON.TXT you've been reading (probably Johnny> jargon.txt instead), Cristopher. Johnny> JARGON.TXT whacks down on Unix pretty hard. Anyone who think JARGON.TXT Johnny> is advocating Unix should know that this is also something that Raymond Johnny> did, along with adding MS-DOS stuff. >> >> Uh, that's what I said? Johnny> Oh? I thought you said that hackers love Unix, and that Unix got replaced with Johnny> MS-DOS in JARGON.TXT. Language problem: I was being sarcastic. ###### From: Bill Westfield Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 22 Feb 2000 18:06:39 -0800 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 13 Message-ID: <541z64brkg.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> References: <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <88uu92$mu1$1@eve.enteract.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@flipper.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.ntr.net!remarQ60!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ70!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50221 I've just taken a look through JARGON.TXT (version of July 22, 1981) and can't find a single reference, positive or negative, to either Unix *or* MS-DOS. The original IBM-PC was released in AUGUST of 1981. I don't think the anti-xxxOS wars started in a big way until the old OS's started dissapearing like dinosaurs. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 were essentially the first "operating environments" to lose their support, making the Dec 36bit programmers the first set of grumpy old men. -- (remove spam food from return address) ###### Message-ID: <38B390C2.811A6196@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> <38B24089.96D370B2@netinsight.se> <38B2785C.F8E61DF3@netinsight.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:48:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 951292099 194.16.221.2 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:48:19 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:48:19 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50202 Christopher C Stacy wrote: > > >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:51:56 GMT, Johnny Billquist ("Johnny") writes: > > Johnny> Oh? I thought you said that hackers love Unix, and that Unix got replaced with > Johnny> MS-DOS in JARGON.TXT. > > Language problem: I was being sarcastic. That's what you get when Swedish is your first language. Too bad. I guess the sarcasm was pretty good then. Wish I had caught it, though... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38bab98e.3006553@news.freeuk.net> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:42:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.145.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 951302563 212.126.145.170 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:42:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:42:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50213 I'm not the only one who thinks Simson "and" Garfinkel has a funny name though right? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 23 Feb 2000 18:30:03 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 951327009 992 10.0.3.2 (23 Feb 2000 17:30:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2000 17:30:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50231 Christopher C Stacy writes: > >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:11:40 GMT, Jay Maynard ("Jay") writes: > Jay> I hadn't heard that anyone had ITS running on a -10 emulator... > > I think that ITS was the first thing to run on the first PDP-10 > emulator (KLH-10), quite a few years ago. Where does one get such an emulator (or even an newer one) from? Where does one get a ITS disk image from? Where does one get docs about how to use ITS? Asked by an Unixer who would like to explore this "so much better" system to can get a well founded view on what it really is like. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Wizzard, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Computer: a toy, speeds work so that you have more time to play ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:21:50 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <38B4091E.544964AF@jkmicro.com> References: <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <88uu92$mu1$1@eve.enteract.com> <541z64brkg.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> <890qa3$d4e$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: 204.181.96.50 NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Feb 23 10:16:06 2000 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Ws,^1k-X&U-"i1A9`87@;ocF (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50234 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >I don't think the anti-xxxOS wars started in a big way until the old OS's > >started dissapearing like dinosaurs. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 were essentially > >the first "operating environments" to lose their support, making the Dec > >36bit programmers the first set of grumpy old men. > > > Actually, they were very, very pissed off not-so-old men. > I wrote a story about it. Could you post it? Jim ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: The computer jargon file In-Reply-To: <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:34:47 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 951330338 198.199.189.6 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:25:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:25:38 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50245 On 23 Feb 2000, Neil Franklin wrote: > Christopher C Stacy writes: > > > >>>>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:11:40 GMT, Jay Maynard ("Jay") writes: > > Jay> I hadn't heard that anyone had ITS running on a -10 emulator... > > > > I think that ITS was the first thing to run on the first PDP-10 > > emulator (KLH-10), quite a few years ago. > > Where does one get such an emulator (or even an newer one) from? > > Where does one get a ITS disk image from? > > Where does one get docs about how to use ITS? Hey, I'm working on it! :P Hold your horses! "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 23 Feb 2000 23:36:59 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6uu2izlf5g.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 951345421 424 10.0.3.2 (23 Feb 2000 22:37:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2000 22:37:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50249 Daniel Seagraves writes: > On 23 Feb 2000, Neil Franklin wrote: > > > Where does one get such an emulator (or even an newer one) from? > > > > Where does one get a ITS disk image from? > > > > Where does one get docs about how to use ITS? > > Hey, I'm working on it! :P Hold your horses! Great! Make sure your announce also hits a.f.c when its time arrives. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Wizzard, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Computer: a toy, speeds work so that you have more time to play ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 10:43:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <88uu92$mu1$1@eve.enteract.com> <541z64brkg.fsf@flipper.cisco.com> <890qa3$d4e$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: DzoW1I1SZh8oX4IAveip2VDvyLrQOGuqpfy5P4RrX2M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2000 12:15:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news.gigabell.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-251 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50273 In article , Jim Stewart wrote: > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >I don't think the anti-xxxOS wars started in a big way until the old OS's >> >started dissapearing like dinosaurs. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 were essentially >> >the first "operating environments" to lose their support, making the Dec >> >36bit programmers the first set of grumpy old men. >> > >> Actually, they were very, very pissed off not-so-old men. >> I wrote a story about it. > >Could you post it? > >Jim I did a while ago. Do the people in the -10 newsgroup mind if it's posted again? I don't know the netocol about reposting long stories. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:31:41 +0000 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B1A80B.705A05BF@trailing-edge.com> <88utj3$rnb$2@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 951327079 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50315 In article <88utj3$rnb$2@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net>, "Paul Grayson" writes: [...] > I stopped reading Slashdot when I realised the mentality of some of the > posters. I would sometimes post a response to a thread, usually to consider > a different techology. I'd often receive a response to the effect "Are you > on crack!", or even worse. I sometimes would receive abusive emails from > people I'd angered. Sometimes it is not much different to the letters pages > of early 80s micro magazines. And the majority are ignorant of computer > history, too! This is what the moderating system is for. Set your moderation threshold to 3 and suddenly you'll only see intelligent posts. ...after all, a.f.c gets its share of flamage, too. It's less high-profile than Slashdot but they're still there. 90% of everone are idiots. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "Scuzzy Wuzzy was a bus. | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Scuzzy Wuzzy caused no fuss. | Play: dgiven@iname.com | Scuzzy Wuzzy wasn't SCSI, was he?" +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ --- Jordin Kare ###### From: mattm@infinet.com (Matthew W. Miller) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.6 UNIX) Date: 24 Feb 2000 04:31:38 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: <38b4b42a$0$1412@news.infinet.com> Organization: Infinite Systems - Columbus, OH NNTP-Posting-Host: f5ca65d7.news.infinet.com X-Trace: 0RW8S?BXNaRI5[332>a9Y[YB>X7VQ@mT^B``JSOV>`V^CbJaNl=V0cRF[VKL@<0CcT^d`Yg2hm2JPZW1B26WVFNWXg9a0BC^hB[ X-Complaints-To: abuse@infinet.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.infinet.com!reader2-nwblwi.news.infinet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50284 On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:37:09 GMT, Jay Maynard wrote: >On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:28:22 GMT, Christopher C Stacy >wrote: >>Some people were annoyed by his changing references that denigrated UNIX >>to refer instead to MS-DOS, since, as we all know, UNIX is what hackers love. >All of the complaining is from embittered old ITS hackers pissed off that >their beloved OS has sunk beneath the waves. No. Personally I'm annoyed by Raymond's nastiness about Commodores, both in the New Hacker's Dictionary ("notoriously crocky little bitty boxes") and in the default Linux /etc/termcap ("[Commodore 64's] can still be found gathering dust in closets everywhere.") I can understand a little sarcasm, but jeez, you'd think Max Toy spoiled his nice new rattle or something. Maybe Raymond's one of those weird Atari 800 fans. :) -- Matthew W. Miller -- mattm@infinet.com ###### Message-ID: <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> From: Mark Statzer Organization: Helena Handbasket X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.250.76.47 X-Trace: tw12.nn.bcandid.com 951370404 63.250.76.47 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:33:24 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:33:24 MST Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 05:33:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50322 Jay Maynard wrote: > All of the complaining is from embittered old ITS hackers pissed off that > their beloved OS has sunk beneath the waves. Amen! Can I get a witness! > > I miss OS/2, too, but I don't dedicate a chunk of my brainpower to it any > more... > I bite down on my tongue *hard* when I read the ZDNet Talkback sections pertaining to Microsoft VS DOJ, and the letters that proclaim that "Microsoft never did anything wrong, you guys are just anti competitive losers".... Anyone who worked as hard as I (and others) did cheerfully weeding out the bugs in OS/2 2.0 and all those betas of 2.1, and can now only fondly remember the dust that remains ( and see all of those features, stolen *badly*, in W9X) have a lot of trouble buying the "Bill's innocent, I tell ya!" line. It may be true that very little they have done is demonstratively illegal, but that don't mean it wasn't evil, and harmful to the industry. > ESR's changing of those refs seems to me to make the entries in question > more universally understandable. Lots of folks like Unix, whether you choose > to admit and understand it or not. Many, many fewer like MS-DOS. True, but many more today at least have some *experience* with DOS (not all traumatic) and don't know bupkus about *nix. Yes, Virginia, it *is* possible to be a full-bore computer fanatic and *not* worship @ First Presbyterian *nix... Mark "remember TeamOS/2?" Statzer -- *NOTE* I am not responsible for equipment damage due to reeeealy dumb children with no parental supervision, and access to a hammer. ###### Message-ID: <38B4FC06.93AEF9E8@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 46 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:38:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 951385094 194.16.221.2 (Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:38:14 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:38:14 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50275 Mark Crispin wrote: > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Mark Statzer wrote: > > Anyone who worked as hard as I (and others) did cheerfully weeding out > > the bugs in OS/2 2.0 and all those betas of 2.1, and can now only fondly > > remember the dust that remains ( and see all of those features, stolen > > *badly*, in W9X) have a lot of trouble buying the "Bill's innocent, I > > tell ya!" line. > > Imagine that, someone who actually feels sorry for IBM in this newsgroup. The evil empore is long forgotten. > Next thing, we'll be hearing about how wonderful JCL, OS/360, HASP, TSS, > all was until that nasty Microsoft spoiled it with MS-DOS. Let's not > forget AIX, that wonderful variant of UNIX. [venomous sarcasm] > > Excuse me while I gag. I think I've already seen people talk fondly over JCL and so on in a.f.c... > I've heard a number of stories of what happened to OS/2. There's a common > thread regarding IBM having shot itself in the foot. IBM fully intended > to break Microsoft, and instead broke itself. True. > Say what you will about Microsoft being the Evil Empire, but quite > frankly, Microsoft is much more benign than IBM or SUN. Or, for that > matter, DEC. The world is a much better place with the dominant OS not > being in the hands of a hardware vendor. Not sure I agree with you here. Just because all hardware vendors have proven themself to be a pain in everyones ass don't make MS a good guy. MS have mistreated everyone just as bad as DEC ever did, it just turned out that MS isn't as easy to get the blame to stick at. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38b4b42a$0$1412@news.infinet.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:28:26 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-mk4HTQr7aIYXVsQ7nmosjU6wpXBhI0ym5mI/179a/b8dCs+1X0bvtxBMjkdsxiJr0Fg0d88gVrZfw6t!23l9KrWfZ2/ZJ2PCrExhEQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:28:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50259 On 24 Feb 2000 04:31:38 GMT, Matthew W. Miller wrote: >No. Personally I'm annoyed by Raymond's nastiness about Commodores, both >in the New Hacker's Dictionary ("notoriously crocky little bitty boxes") >and in the default Linux /etc/termcap ("[Commodore 64's] can still be >found gathering dust in closets everywhere.") I can understand a little >sarcasm, but jeez, you'd think Max Toy spoiled his nice new rattle or >something. Maybe Raymond's one of those weird Atari 800 fans. :) I have a hard time disagreeing with him...between the legacy of k-kik-k000()o0o()000oool-rad-mcbadical warezzzzzz kiddies with 32-column Usenet posts, and being gratuitously incompatible with ASCII, the C=64 is a stain on the history of computing. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:38:16 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-DT9rsRNY+mLCf966IUheCQxlbIi6Y+eQ38X/g+NlY16+oEUevTuDNmq9yhrHb+OQCHKR2el78RN0bQ1!8cYpFDgIIc0P8SkciDd2wA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:38:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50252 On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:31:12 -0800, Mark Crispin wrote: >Imagine that, someone who actually feels sorry for IBM in this newsgroup. How about feeling sorry for the users who are stuck with Windows, rather than something that was, in 1994, what Windows 2000 is only now beinning to reach? >Next thing, we'll be hearing about how wonderful JCL, OS/360, HASP, TSS, >all was until that nasty Microsoft spoiled it with MS-DOS. Let's not >forget AIX, that wonderful variant of UNIX. [venomous sarcasm] From the mouth of a famous burbler like you, I'd have expected this crap. No, OS/360 and MVS weren't the great programmer environment of your beloved ITS. They weren't *meant* to be. They were, and are, bulletproof environments for doing lots of I/O intensive tasks with supreme reliability. You know, doing mundane things like printing your paycheck, along with thousands of others, every couple of weeks. Boring stuff that doesn't interest hackers, but is just as essential in the grand scheme. For all of AIX's faults (and I'll agree that they're legion), even they get a few things right: it's the only variant of Unix I've seen where you can add a disk and extend the root filesystem on the fly without having to take the machine down even for a reboot. Nothing is perfect, either good or evil. >I've heard a number of stories of what happened to OS/2. There's a common >thread regarding IBM having shot itself in the foot. IBM fully intended >to break Microsoft, and instead broke itself. IBM couldn't market ice water to a parched Bedouin camel herder in the middle of the Sinai at high noon in the middle of August. That doesn't eman that I can't wish that OS/2 had thrived, and provided a real alternative to M$. I run Windows 2000 now not because I want to, but because I have to. >Say what you will about Microsoft being the Evil Empire, but quite >frankly, Microsoft is much more benign than IBM or SUN. Or, for that >matter, DEC. The world is a much better place with the dominant OS not >being in the hands of a hardware vendor. Right. Uh huh. I don't suppose it's occurred to you that the dominant OS *can't* be in the hands of a hardware vendor any more? A Windows *couldn't* achieve the monopoly status it has if it were owned by Compaq, or Dell, or IBM... ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 24 Feb 2000 18:22:07 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <890qa3$d4e$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 951416527 51982 10.0.0.43 (24 Feb 2000 18:22:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2000 18:22:07 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!n00zpHeed.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50304 In article <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >I did a while ago. Do the people in the -10 newsgroup mind >if it's posted again? I don't know the netocol about reposting >long stories. GA -o- -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 09:29:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <890qa3$d4e$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> X-Trace: 3KX7/deZO7MAvPquKSHCypJr7BDA64TnC4QVQrYiZ1o= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 11:02:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-129 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50342 In article <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>I did a while ago. Do the people in the -10 newsgroup mind >>if it's posted again? I don't know the netocol about reposting >>long stories. > >GA -o- > My brain isn't working very well this morning. What does this mean? Joe Smith? Did you put the story in your collection? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:16:47 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 19 Message-ID: <894flt$t04$1@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38b4b42a$0$1412@news.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p38-stint-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 951435773 29700 194.168.120.218 (24 Feb 2000 23:42:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2000 23:42:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50393 > >No. Personally I'm annoyed by Raymond's nastiness about Commodores, both > >in the New Hacker's Dictionary ("notoriously crocky little bitty boxes") > >and in the default Linux /etc/termcap ("[Commodore 64's] can still be > >found gathering dust in closets everywhere.") I can understand a little > >sarcasm, but jeez, you'd think Max Toy spoiled his nice new rattle or > >something. Maybe Raymond's one of those weird Atari 800 fans. :) > > I have a hard time disagreeing with him...between the legacy of > k-kik-k000()o0o()000oool-rad-mcbadical warezzzzzz kiddies with 32-column > Usenet posts, and being gratuitously incompatible with ASCII, the C=64 is a > stain on the history of computing. I saw in a retail catalogue only yesterday an advertisment for a standard UK television with integrated Email via a modem. Looking at the screen capture it appears to use the Videotext/Teletext display for this email, which means there may be a lot of 40-column messages coming our way soon! ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 94 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:38:22 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-HWreC1w/vNd2D2DXXMxA25bd0GhPrSx/JLjv+L/OJe8etqT6SCUEWdrBwcs3rlZhIAkkMBvgMArp1n/!84g/aLpNbljsK6fYq27U+w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:38:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50328 On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:51:47 -0800, Mark Crispin wrote: >Perhaps you have forgotten that Microsoft wrote OS/2; that Microsoft was >positioning OS/2 to replace Windows; and that when Microsoft and IBM broke >up their business arrangements IBM took OS/2 as their alimony settlement. Perhaps you have forgotten that all of that happened *before* OS/2 2.0 was more than a developer's toy, and that OS/2 2.0 was all that 1.3 (the last version M$ had any control over) wasn't. >Because IBM wanted to have the monopoly on PCs like it did on mainframes, >that's why. Because IBM was enraged by the deals Microsoft was making >with clone vendors, who were undercutting IBM's prices. By controlling >the 32-bit OS, not only would it squeeze out Microsoft but it could also >dictate terms to the clone market. You're forgetting that M$ was busily undermining OS/2 with Windows 3.x while it was supposedly partnering with IBM. If I was getting backstabbed by my partners, I'd be pissed too. >IBM severely underestimated Microsoft's ability to come up with a 32-bit >product life extender for Windows (Win9x), and with a new operating system >(NT) that is better than OS/2. You seriously contend that NT is *better* than OS/2? Even now, with Win2K approaching what OS/2 2.1 was, it *still* doesn't come close in stability and usability. I *still* get bluescreens out of Win2K and WinNT 4 that simply *didn't happen* when I was doing the same things under OS/2 in 1997. >Golly gee, it appears that the fact that I was briefly an ITS system >programmer and wrote some of its utilities (Telnet, XGP spooler, etc.) has >tarred me in the minds of ignorant pinheads as having a "beloved ITS". If I'm wrong about the tone and frequency of the comments you've made slamming ESR's editing of the Jargon File, I apologize...but I don't think so. >I doubt that Jay Maynard ever used OS/360. I wasted years of my life on >that platform. I don't call multiple crashes a day "supreme reliability". I spent 15 years as an MVS, CICS, and VTAM systems programmer. While I never wrote a single line of COBOL - something for which I'm supremely grateful - I have more experience than I care to admit with the S/370 and S/390 platform. Now, I'll grant that I didn't get into systems on the 370 series until 1981...but I *never* saw "multiple crashes a day". Ever. Not once. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I had to call for two unscheduled IPLs in one day. It may be that earlier OSes were less stable; I hope to find out for myself soon. (If you still doubt that I know anything about OS/360, check out http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360 ...that is, if you can stand seeing someone try to help others run it today.) >Yes, sad to say; I once programmed JCL (shudder), COBOL, PL/I, the whole >shebang. I was tempted to get in on the Y2K scam, but I decided that the >peace of mind that I've enjoyed in the subsequent IBM-free decades was >worth more to me than money. As I said, I've never done COBOL, but I have done JCL - and slam it all you want, but who else was doing device-independent I/O in production in 1970? - and PL/1 and 370 assembler and even a little FORTRAN. I, too, decided that avoiding the Y2K feeding frenzy was worth it in peace of mind. >Sorry, AIX is not the only UNIX variant that has that feature. Thank you >for playing. Oh? What others do? >I must have imagined the existance of Linux and of Linux-based software >that runs Windows applications. Show me *one* Linux replacement for the groupware features of Outlook. Please. I'd love to jettison it at the office. >Windows is the first dominant operating system that isn't in the hands of >a hardware vendor, and that's only because Microsoft won the war with IBM >and Apple. M$ stole the victory by anticompetitive and illegal activities int he marketplace, something that is about to come back and bite M$ in the butt, very, very hard. >Microsoft may be evil, but they've been the least evil of them all. >Think of what the world would be like if IBM and Apple still dominated >PCs. I doubt that IBM could be in a dominant position regarding PCs. The market moved too fast to allow that. As for Apple, they've always been overpriced, underpowered, and underfeatured, and they're incapable of dominating anything. >Microsoft has not repeated that mistake. M$ made mistakes of their own, and they're about to have to pay the piper. ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:10:25 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38B5AC51.717F@compuserve.com> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50337 > > Windows is the first dominant operating system that isn't in the hands of > a hardware vendor, and that's only because Microsoft won the war with IBM > and Apple. > Someone once made the case that Microsoft's main business is computer hardware design, and they've been the most successful at it because they actually don't manufacture their design at all; they've farmed it out to other companies that churn out the design by the millions. Sam ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 25 Feb 2000 00:44:26 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 951439466 66668 10.0.0.43 (25 Feb 2000 00:44:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 00:44:26 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50371 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >Microsoft has not repeated that mistake. I don't know of anyone who has >religious fanaticism about Microsoft products, but you won't find any >customer who feels badly-treated by Microsoft either. I'm a customer. I feel seriously abused by Microsoft. They dumped their first decent OS (say what you like about Xenix today, in 1984 it was head and shoulders above anything else for small businesses), they routinely break file compatibility for cynical marketing reasons. They bludgeon customers into unnecessary upgrade after unnecessary upgrade (my Macintosh SE/30 is still usable, but the Word 5 installed on it can't read any Word document created in the past 5-10 years). I've been using Microsoft's terminal server solution since it was Winframe and WinDD. I was also using the competitor to the product they finally chose... NTerprise... and Microsoft forced us out of it by refusing to license NT4 to Exodus. When they announced Terminal Server we got stuck with no product for months because the Citrix product went off the market long before the Microsoft-branded product showed up. More recently I've been trying to use Interix, so we could start porting some software to NT. That mysteriously went into a holding pattern for a year and all of a sudden it's showing up on Microsoft's shelves. So yes, over and over and over again, Microsoft's deliberately and cynically kicked this customer in the nads. And yet... Apple's still hosting software for my 10 year old SE/30 on their website. Which company do I consider abusive? You tell me. -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. ###### Message-ID: <38B5E862.1BF6B96F@net66.com> From: Mark Statzer Organization: Helena Handbasket X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.250.76.32 X-Trace: tw12.nn.bcandid.com 951445604 63.250.76.32 (Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:26:44 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:26:44 MST Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 02:26:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50394 Mark Crispin wrote: > Imagine that, someone who actually feels sorry for IBM in this newsgroup. Oop - I don't feel *sorry* for IBM - they suck in many different ways. I'm just honked off that what I considered a *fantastic* PC OS died for 2 reasons a)Microsoft held it's 3.1 code hostage from OS/2 (yes, they can if they wanna. I don't have to like it, tho) and b) IBM couldn't/wouldn't market their way out of a paper bag if their lives depended on it. Not to mention Microsoft *once again* raped OS/2 for ideas & sold 'em as their own. Shee-it. I left *that* firmly believing they just allowed some executive to screw around with OS/2 as a lark, or to keep him occupied while they played with *real* computers.. > Next thing, we'll be hearing about how wonderful JCL, OS/360, HASP, TSS, > all was until that nasty Microsoft spoiled it with MS-DOS. Let's not > forget AIX, that wonderful variant of UNIX. [venomous sarcasm] As a 35 year-old geek, I must admit I haven't come within 50 yards of any of those, and wouldn't know if I had. > I've heard a number of stories of what happened to OS/2. There's a common > thread regarding IBM having shot itself in the foot. IBM fully intended > to break Microsoft, and instead broke itself. Yep, and Probably. > Say what you will about Microsoft being the Evil Empire, but quite > frankly, Microsoft is much more benign than IBM or SUN. I suppose that's roughly equivalent to saying "A train-derailment is much more benign than Union Carbide toxic gas leak." Of course, it depends on weather you live by the tracks, or in Bhopal. > Or, for that matter, DEC. The world is a much better place with the dominant OS not > being in the hands of a hardware vendor. Amen. Statz -- *NOTE* I am not responsible for equipment damage due to reeeealy dumb children with no parental supervision, and access to a hammer. ###### From: brucehoult@pobox.com (Bruce Hoult) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:35:25 +1300 Organization: The Internet Group Ltd Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: macinnat.static.star.net.nz X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!ihug.co.nz!brucehoult Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50367 In article <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > my Macintosh > SE/30 is still usable, but the Word 5 installed on it can't read any Word > document created in the past 5-10 years While I agree with your general points ... Microsoft do provide free translators that let Word 5 read Word 6/95 and Word 97/98/2000 documents. -- Bruce ###### Message-ID: <38B5EB10.4E92589B@net66.com> From: Mark Statzer Organization: Helena Handbasket X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.250.76.32 X-Trace: tw12.nn.bcandid.com 951446290 63.250.76.32 (Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:38:10 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:38:10 MST Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 02:38:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50391 Mark Crispin wrote: > Microsoft has not repeated that mistake. I don't know of anyone who has > religious fanaticism about Microsoft products, but you won't find any > customer who feels badly-treated by Microsoft either. Jesus H. McGillicuddy. I can only assume the computer you write on is connected to the world via 2400 baud modem, deep in the bowels of a missle-silo in rural Montana (how's that for redundant) where you *apparently* reside; popping up occasionally to read and respond to no more than 10 Usenet messages per year (under carefully controlled conditions). Have you been so steeped in the vast world of "Here's a nickel, get a real computer, Kid" that you haven't noticed the past 10 years of blood-curdling screams directed towards Redmond? Wh-oooah. Mark "Wondering if Microsoft were to successfully coordinate planned system crashes with local high noon, could the screams eventually push us out of orbit?" Statzer -- *NOTE* I am not responsible for equipment damage due to reeeealy dumb children with no parental supervision, and access to a hammer. ###### Sender: marc@hana.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> From: Marco S Hyman Date: 24 Feb 2000 19:57:11 -0800 Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. (www.snafu.org) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.54.48.250 X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 951450889 201 marc@206.54.48.250 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50357 Mark Crispin writes: > Microsoft has not repeated that mistake. I don't know of anyone who has > religious fanaticism about Microsoft products, but you won't find any > customer who feels badly-treated by Microsoft either. Eh? I do. I don't own (excuse me, license) many of their products, but am quite annoyed that: - you often cant get a fix for something broken without getting a whole lot more unneeded and unwanted garbage. - loading a Microsoft application sometimes (often? always?) involves loading system libraries (DLLs) that have broken other, older applications. This one is extremely not nice as removing the offending application does nothing, the newer version of the DLL stays. I call that bad treatment. Don't you? // marc ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:03:04 -0600 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 26 Message-ID: <38B60D08.D542166A@plano.net> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50396 Mark Crispin wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Microsoft has not repeated that mistake. I don't know of anyone who has > religious fanaticism about Microsoft products, but you won't find any > customer who feels badly-treated by Microsoft either. > I have to take *extreme* exception to that last statement. I know of customers who feel badly treated by Microsoft!!! I know of a large company who wanted to buy a site license for Microsoft Word. M$ refused to sell it unless the company got rid of all its copies of WordPerfect. Microsoft has regularly refused to set it's OS's to computer makers unless they purchase a license for *every* machine they manufacture. (Now what if they wanted to put Unix or Linux or OS/2 on some of those machines?) I have read where M$ set up a problem database for Win95 and charged the person who submitted the problem $75 US to post it ot the problem database. Hey, that's great customer service!!! M$ *is* the evil empire, and they suck dirty rags soaked in pond water!!! (Get your favorite search engine and search for the phrase: "more evil than Satan"...see which site comes up #1!!!) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3Aot4.1469$%A3.33023@ptah.visi.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 05:39:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 951457151 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:39:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:39:11 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50345 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >Microsoft has not repeated that mistake. I don't know of anyone who has >religious fanaticism about Microsoft products, but you won't find any >customer who feels badly-treated by Microsoft either. Yes, you will. I spent two hundred FUCKING dollars on Win '98, full version, so I could have a "more-stable" games machine. It was not dramatically more stable than '95, despite claims to the contrary. The "modern" DirectX software needed to be replaced by a multi-megabyte download *ON THE DAY I GOT THE PACKAGE*, or I couldn't use my system. When I wanted to install it again later, I couldn't until I found my license key. The documentation, and Microsoft's web site, told me to look for a piece of paper of a certain size. They were *wrong* - it was, in fact, a sticker on the back of the cardboard CD case. In the mean time, after, *DOWNLOADING MICROSOFT PRODUCTS*, my Win '98 system had suicided. I could not reload it, because I needed a key that was not where they said it was. After much fussing, I managed to download a patch that let me install it without a "valid" key, and used that until I found my key. But yeah, I feel badly-treated. There is absolutely no way, shape, or form in which the key is protecting me; it is not helpful to me. It is a parody of a security feature, given how easy it is to break it, and it doesn't really limit "piracy" - but it does screw legitimate users who are already being screwed by the inability of the system to have a stable state. I'm not done. Since then, I got Win'98 SE as an "upgrade"; it's supposed to be even more stable. Then I needed to install a *newer* DirectX to run a video game, so I installed the Microsoft-Certified, guaranteed stable, brand-new, DirectX. It didn't work. I had to download the *even newer* one that had just come out. Another >6MB. Not to mention that I apparently still need to download at least one Y2K fix. You betcha I feel badly-treated. Is it worth it? I dunno, sometimes; I'm beginning to think I should just wait an extra year for video games to come out for my Mac or Unix systems. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### Message-ID: <38B62EBF.E956278D@netinsight.se> From: Johnny Billquist Organization: Netinsight AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:27:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.16.221.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 951463625 194.16.221.2 (Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:27:05 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:27:05 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!newssrv.ita.tip.net!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50338 Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:51:47 -0800, Mark Crispin > wrote: > >Golly gee, it appears that the fact that I was briefly an ITS system > >programmer and wrote some of its utilities (Telnet, XGP spooler, etc.) has > >tarred me in the minds of ignorant pinheads as having a "beloved ITS". > > If I'm wrong about the tone and frequency of the comments you've made > slamming ESR's editing of the Jargon File, I apologize...but I don't think > so. From where did you get that everyone who is slamming ESR's modifications of Jargon is an ITS bigot? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist | johnny.billquist@netinsight.net Net Insight AB | phone: +46 8 685 04 88 Västberga Allé 9 | fax: +46 8 685 04 20 Box 42093 | SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden | http://www.netinsight.net ###### From: ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 25 Feb 2000 13:07:50 GMT Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <895ur6$14ug$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cauchy.cs.uni-bonn.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de 951484070 37840 131.220.4.169 (25 Feb 2000 13:07:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 13:07:50 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50376 In article <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > Apple's still hosting software for my 10 year old SE/30 on their website. Others do that, too. Amiga International, former Amiga Technologies, former Most Of Commodore Business Machines has a Y2K patch online, for an OS version that was published in 1986 and replaced in 1989: http://www.amiga.de/diary/developers/y2k.html http://www.amiga.de/diary/developers/SetClock_v34.3.lha Regards, -is -- * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) ###### Message-ID: <38B69D2B.143D34F4@fspdc.uchicago.edu> From: Simon Allaway X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> <38B60D08.D542166A@plano.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:18:03 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.34.94 X-Trace: uchinews 951491715 128.135.34.94 (Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:15:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:15:15 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50362 Charles Richmond wrote: > > M$ *is* the evil empire, and they suck dirty rags soaked in pond water!!! > (Get your favorite search engine and search for the phrase: > "more evil than Satan"...see which site comes up #1!!!) You had a reasonable arguement until you got all religious on us. The behaviour that Microsoft has exhibited is no worse than any other modern technology led company. BTW I did the search and got this. http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i025.html Simon ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 25 Feb 2000 15:52:43 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8968gb$boo$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 951493963 12056 10.0.0.43 (25 Feb 2000 15:52:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2000 15:52:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!netscum.int!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50373 In article <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, > peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >>In article <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>I did a while ago. Do the people in the -10 newsgroup mind >>>if it's posted again? I don't know the netocol about reposting >>>long stories. >>GA -o- >My brain isn't working very well this morning. What does this >mean? Go Ahead (over). Nice to see that RCN has deigned to back out their y2k "fix" and let you post again, by the way. -- This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document Executive Vice President, Corporate Communications, Entropy Gradient Reversals. ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:11:43 -0800 Organization: Denim Software Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.d2.8c X-Server-Date: 25 Feb 2000 19:11:43 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!hshubs Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50390 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >matter, DEC. The world is a much better place with the dominant OS not >being in the hands of a hardware vendor. How do you figure this? -- Howard S Shubs, the Denim Adept ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:13:50 -0800 Organization: Denim Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> <38B5E862.1BF6B96F@net66.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.d2.8c X-Server-Date: 25 Feb 2000 19:13:50 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news-fra.pop.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!hshubs Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50385 In article <38B5E862.1BF6B96F@net66.com>, Mark Statzer wrote: >As a 35 year-old geek, I must admit I haven't come within 50 yards of >any of those, and wouldn't know if I had. You haven't encountered AIX yet? You haven't -lived-! -- Howard S Shubs, the Denim Adept ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Date: 25 Feb 2000 20:11:42 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <896nlu$1ge@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38b4b42a$0$1412@news.infinet.com> <894flt$t NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 951511840 nnrp-09:20342 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50413 04$1@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> Distribution: Paul Grayson (paul.grayson@virgin.net) wrote: : I saw in a retail catalogue only yesterday an advertisment for a standard UK : television with integrated Email via a modem. Looking at the screen capture : it appears to use the Videotext/Teletext display for this email, which means : there may be a lot of 40-column messages coming our way soon! I believe that Philips sold a television in the mid 1970s which consisted of a standard G11-chassis set with a plinth under it that contained a teletext decoder/display and a Prestel modem. It was essentially an integrated TV and Prestel set, and in many ways was the forerunner of sets like you describe above. Unfortunately the service data I have on the G11 chassis doesn't cover this option so I've got not other info. -tony ###### From: hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 25 Feb 2000 18:39:37 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8977c9$d4o$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawkins.cba.uni.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uni.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50429 In article , Bruce Hoult wrote: >In article <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com >(Peter da Silva) wrote: >> my Macintosh >> SE/30 is still usable, but the Word 5 installed on it can't read any Word >> document created in the past 5-10 years >While I agree with your general points ... Microsoft do provide free >translators that let Word 5 read Word 6/95 and Word 97/98/2000 documents. Unless they've gotten *much* better, they're useless :) On the way to the airport in 12/93, I stopped to drop off a file for a class. Out of rank paranoia, I looked at the windows "translation"--essentially all of the file was missing--all of the graphs (done within word), all of the frames; pretty much everything except the main body. Microsoft's idea of translation to/from Word 5.1 seems to be "the most bare bones text survives". I'm not really anti-microsoft. I just haven't seen them produce anything worth useing--let alone buyint--since Word 5.1/Excel 4.0 (both of which I bought). Oh, and open a 5.1 Word file with a newer version. Particularly, a file using the typesetting commands (which still are second only to LyX). It opens the file, converts the typesetting to equation editor, and overwrites the original file--without permission. The only way to do prevent this is to make the original file read only. hawk -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (319) 266-7114 http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer. ###### From: hrummuka@cc.hut.fi Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 26 Feb 2000 08:50:06 GMT Organization: The Union of Rubber Chickens Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <894j9a$213c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <895ur6$14ug$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Reply-To: hrummuka@cc.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Host: mu.tky.hut.fi X-Trace: nntp.hut.fi 951555006 5961 130.233.19.3 (26 Feb 2000 08:50:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntp.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Feb 2000 08:50:06 GMT Mail-Spam-To: never X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!nntp.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50416 ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) writes: > Others do that, too. Amiga International, former Amiga Technologies, former > Most Of Commodore Business Machines has a Y2K patch online, for an OS version > that was published in 1986 and replaced in 1989: > > http://www.amiga.de/diary/developers/y2k.html > http://www.amiga.de/diary/developers/SetClock_v34.3.lha I found particularly amusing the part where they state about the problem of signed time representation rolling over in January 2046 that "a fix is not available yet, but research is in progress to investigate whether this bug could be fixed by updating several AmigaOS modules..." Somehow I doubt that too many Amigas will be in working condition in 2046... Hannu Rummukainen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> <38B60D08.D542166A@plano.net> <38B69D2B.143D34F4@fspdc.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:30:25 GMT Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50520 In article <38B69D2B.143D34F4@fspdc.uchicago.edu>, Simon Allaway writes: > > > Charles Richmond wrote: >> > >> M$ *is* the evil empire, and they suck dirty rags soaked in pond water!!! >> (Get your favorite search engine and search for the phrase: >> "more evil than Satan"...see which site comes up #1!!!) > > You had a reasonable arguement until you got all religious on us. The > behaviour that Microsoft has exhibited is no worse than any other modern > technology led company. > > BTW I did the search and got this. > http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i025.html > > Simon I think he's referring to the google.com search engine, where searching for "more evil than Satan himself" (without the quotes) turns up Microsoft's home page as the first result. (Actually, you need only input "evil itself" or "more evil" as the search term) And searching for f*** you (without asterisks) will return both yahoo.com and Disney in the first 10 results. Rayner -- Geek Code Version 3.12: GS d- s-:- a--- C++$ US P L++ E W++$ N++ o? K w--(---) O? M V? PS(+) PE Y PGP- t-- 5- X+ R- tv-- b++ DI+++>++++ D++ G e* h- r% y? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home pages: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ns8rl/ Share and Enjoy! ###### From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 29 Feb 2000 02:18:10 GMT Organization: NETCOM On-line services Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <86lfo9$553@web.nmti.com> <38AE040C.65608ED4@MA.UltraNet.Com> <88m3tp$2khd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <38AEB313.68CFC12A@MA.UltraNet.Com> <38B0FF1A.CF793984@netinsight.se> <38B1874B.2C493FDE@trailing-edge.com> <38B4C29F.D6D74B5A@net66.com> Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.66 X-Server-Date: 29 Feb 2000 02:17:38 GMT In-reply-to: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx's message of Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:38:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!207.69.128.180!alderson Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50686 In article jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:51:47 -0800, Mark Crispin >wrote: >>Golly gee, it appears that the fact that I was briefly an ITS system >>programmer and wrote some of its utilities (Telnet, XGP spooler, etc.) has >>tarred me in the minds of ignorant pinheads as having a "beloved ITS". >If I'm wrong about the tone and frequency of the comments you've made >slamming ESR's editing of the Jargon File, I apologize...but I don't think >so. I think that the editor of the original _Hacker's Dictionary_ (1984, IIRC), the *first* edition of the Jargon File to be published, is allowed to make comments about the editor of the *second* edition and his habits. He need not be an ITS bigot, hmm? Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) Customer Advocacy, XKL LLC, 1993-now last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now oh, and admittedly a friend of MRC's... ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 1 Mar 2000 06:33:25 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 9 Message-ID: <89idjl$1gfp$1@news.enteract.com> References: <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-2.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 951892405 49657 207.229.143.41 (1 Mar 2000 06:33:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2000 06:33:25 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!betanews.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50761 Neil Franklin wrote: > Where does one get docs about how to use ITS? The manual is available in PostScript (scanned page images) at ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 04:58:52 GMT References: <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <89idjl$1gfp$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 97 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50882 >>>>> On 1 Mar 2000 06:33:25 GMT, Eric Fischer ("Eric") writes: Eric> Neil Franklin wrote: >> Where does one get docs about how to use ITS? Eric> The manual is available in PostScript (scanned page images) at Eric> ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps I'm not sure which memo that is offhand, but it's not going to tell you very much. The real documentation was not published as memos, but rather was all on-line, mostly in the .INFO. and INFO directories. The standard ITS toplevel user interface was a program called DDT. It was an assembley-oriented program debugger that also included many extra commands for all the commmon utilities (login, file manipulation, job manipulation, etc.) However, DDT was not a friendly program: unless you were a system programmer, it would be considered generally less friendly than any UNIX shell. A bunch of the features in UNIX (such as being able to manipulate multiple jobs at once from the shell) were eventually copied from ITS, but they mostly didn't turn out as nice on UNIX. They tended to try copying superficial behaviour rather than the underlying technology that made it work right. The most commonly used major applications on ITS were: TECO/EMACS, MACLISP (and some related Lisp languages), MACSYMA, TEX, and ZORK (a game). People didn't spend a lot of time sitting in the "shell". ITS had many wonderful features; it's hard to figure out where to start. From a user's point of view, one nice feature was --MORE--. The operating system terminal driver knew the size of your screen (and what capabilities your terminal had, and device-independant terminal control protocols, etc.) and by default would enable the MORE feature. If the application moved the cursor off the bottom of the screen (that is, more lines than would fit), then the application received a software MORE interrupt. It could handle this by implementing its own MORE prompt, or it could let the system handle it with a simple default one. The MORE service was built-in to the system, free and automatic; no user intervention was required. If the user wanted MORE processing turned off for some reason, you could do that with a simple command. If the application wanted to do something fancy with it (such as offering to abort the computation as well as the output), it could do that. When this idea was copied into UNIX, it became the user's burden to remember to pipe the output into a seperate program called "more". This also lost the feature of the application to control that part of the interface. Here's another couple of them for you. ITS had a simple, highly reliable non-hierarchical file system. Files were named like: DEVICE:DIRECTORY;NAME1 NAME2. (Yes, that's a space between NAME1 and NAME2. Yes, we eventually found the lack of subdirectories to be an undesiable limitation.) There were many good features to the file system I won't go into here. Anyway, NAME2 was typically used as either a type or a version number. Version numbering was the most useful way to do it. The operating system (by which I mean the system calls OPEN,RENAME,DELETE,etc.) understood about NAME2 being a version number. If you opened a file whose NAME2 was ">", then a new numeric version of the file was opened instead. It was not difficult to manage multiple versions of files, they were wholly and undisputably a totally winning feature of great utility that Saved Everybody's Ass All The Time. GNU EMACS tried to sort of emulate the version number feature for UNIX, but it's not the same. Unless the operating system (or, to do it the hard way: every single application running on the system) understands what's going on with version numbres, it doesn't really work as well. The better solution, adopted by TOPS-20, VMS, and of course the Lisp Machine, was to have *both* a TYPE and a VERSION, rather than giving up one for the other. By the way, that DEVICE part could refer to the file system on another machine. Upon seeing a non-built-in (eg. not a disk or terminal) device name, ITS would look in a file directory that contained user-mode device drivers written to use a generic device-driver protocol. One thing it might find would be a symbolic link named for one of the other ITS machines, linked to the "MLDEV" device. It would load up that driver and run it, and it would implement the transparent remote file system. This device driver (MLDEV) correctly implemented the ITS file system IO semantics exactly, without any of the the problems commonly associated with NFS. If you're sitting on the "AI" machine and want a file "FOO >" that's in your directory on the "ML" machine, you just referenced it as "ML:CSTACY;FOO >" and it all just worked perfectly. This is not even scratching the surface of ITS; I've hardly said anything. Would ITS be a suitable operating system for use today? Well, it was written in assembly language for a machine with an 18-bit address space, and most serious development stopped on it before 1979. By then, those developers had moved on to the Lisp Machine. I'm not sure I really answered your question very much, but I would be happy to answer more specific questions. ###### From: Eric Fischer Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: 2 Mar 2000 19:26:22 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 19 Message-ID: <89mf8u$2307$1@news.enteract.com> References: <6ud7pnhlno.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <89idjl$1gfp$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 952025182 68615 207.229.143.40 (2 Mar 2000 19:26:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2000 19:26:22 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: enf@enteract.com (Eric Fischer) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!betanews.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50863 Christopher C Stacy wrote: > When this idea was copied into UNIX, it became the user's burden to > remember to pipe the output into a seperate program called "more". Thanks for your post about ITS features. As a side note, some versions of Unix have also had the "more" feature built in rather than having it as an external program. As I understand it, the Unix "more" program came about because Charles Haley had modified Berkeley's Fifth Edition Unix systems to include a "more" feature, enabled by "stty cr3". The feature got lost when they upgraded to the Sixth Edition, so Bill Joy wrote a quick user-level replacement program called "cr3," which was subsequently rewritten, renamed as "more", and expanded by Dan Halbert. The 1BSD manual page for cr3 even admitted that "the function of cr3 should be done optionally by the teletype driver in the system." eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file References: <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Chez Inwap From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Date: 07 Mar 2000 08:11:42 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38c4b9be$0$209@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 952416702 209 inwap@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51172 In article <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, > peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >>In article <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>I did a while ago. Do the people in the -10 newsgroup mind >>>if it's posted again? I don't know the netocol about reposting >>>long stories. >> >>GA -o- >> >My brain isn't working very well this morning. What does this >mean? > >Joe Smith? Did you put the story in your collection? It might be in one of these two files: http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/history http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/stories I'm afraid that the stuff in /pdp10/usenet/ is not very well organized. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The computer jargon file Date: Wed, 15 Mar 00 13:29:32 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8ao8r4$qns$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <38c4b9be$0$209@nntp1.ba.best.com> X-Trace: dDCGYNOxz99wPKKlWsJfkQhvdBH++Tm8nobTpmeb4PE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Mar 2000 15:05:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-75 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:51977 In article <38c4b9be$0$209@nntp1.ba.best.com>, inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote: >In article <895nfc$p5j$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>In article <893ssf$1ioe$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, >> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >>>In article <8937dv$rc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>>I did a while ago. Do the people in the -10 newsgroup mind >>>>if it's posted again? I don't know the netocol about reposting >>>>long stories. >>> >>>GA -o- >>> >>My brain isn't working very well this morning. What does this >>mean? >> >>Joe Smith? Did you put the story in your collection? > >It might be in one of these two files: > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/history > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/stories > >I'm afraid that the stuff in /pdp10/usenet/ is not very well organized. 's OK. I managed to find my copy. I've done an edit so I'd appreciate if you would substitute the new edit for the old edit. Not much changed...a few typos and the 1.8 to a 0.8. I still haven't figured out names of people and whatever else I marked with a question mark. I'll post it using my follow-up icon but I'm going to change the title. I've reread it and it's not written very well. I don't have the energy to do a rewrite. My apologies to those who are reading it again; I'm feeling better about reposting it because there's a new old fart on the block who just started reading the newsgroup. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.