From: mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT Organization: The Why Things Don't Work Institute Lines: 119 Message-ID: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tc00049.skypoint.net X-Trace: shadow.skypoint.net 950380367 57982 199.199.158.49 (12 Feb 2000 18:32:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@shadow.skypoint.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2000 18:32:47 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!skypoint.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49701 You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new computer"? OK, freeze-frame. And think. What happens to most people at this juncture is that they proceed mentally to the fun part -- what it will be like to have a nice new PC with all the latest, biggest and fastest stuff in it. What I wish to suggest is that we proceed directly forward to the fun part because otherwise we must cope with a very unfun question embedded in the decision: What's wrong with the old computer? Now, you may think you're a tough guy. Maybe you unflinchingly assess the strengths and weaknesses of the old system and decide it's just plain obsolete. Hard drive's too small, microprocessor's too slow, etc. So, being unsentimental about these things, you landfill the old system and replace it with a shiny new one. But hey, tough guy, guess what? You're still a coward, because I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts you haven't been honest about what was wrong with the old PC. If it was just a drive or a chip, you could replace those. Snap, snap -- all fixed. No, you want to desert your PC because you can't figure it out anymore. That's the dirty little secret of new PC sales. People don't buy new PCs because they want speed and power. They buy them because their old PCs have defeated them. Take me. PC-wise, I'm a pretty tough guy. I change my own oil. I rotate my tires. I own a shelf-full of books about Windows 98 plus a crate of PC diagnostic tomes. I am not afraid to start tweaking, or to crack open a case. But there are things happening inside my current box, a Compaq Presario 4784, that just defeat me. Here's a laundry list of problems dating back to purchasing the machine two years ago: The modem Compaq equipped the box with is unable to send faxes. Nor have I ever been able to connect at above 28k speed -- despite downloading and installing the V90 BIOS upgrade. The teleconference and voicephone capabilities Compaq packed into it never worked (for which I thank God). For the past three months I have been unable to load more than one Word document at a time. If I load more than two Internet Explorer windows at a time, and shut the first one down first, it causes a kernel 32 freeze-up. (Better you should have luna moths living in your head than experience recurring kernel 32 freeze-ups.) When I boot up, Windows waits a half hour before it suddenly, out of the blue, demands the password it's supposed to ask for right away. Each time it happens, I nearly blow coffee onto my monitor. What made it wait so long? None of these things is a mortal wound. I could attach an external modem to solve the faxmodem issue. But I haven't. I step lightly through the memory problems that cause the freeze-ups. I have never lost data because of them. But rescanning and rebooting takes 15 minutes each time it happens. I could probably dicker with the Windows Registry to solve the multiple-document loading feature. But I am not that tough. Windows Registry is the holy of desktop holies -- you park your soul at the door. You can always reinstall Windows, and fix a few problems. You can use an image backup program to restore your PC to the moment when nearly everything worked. (If it can remember.) But all these things are a bother, and the longer you have the computer, the bigger the bother seems. And the more time passes, the closer you get to the moment of acceptable write-off - the moment when you cross your eyes, declare the machine to be "old," and the purchase of a replacement is acceptable. And you immediately refocus your thinking on the beauties of the new machine -- that wonderful 500 Mhz chip, that unfillable 20 gig hard drive, and maybe the delicious new feature, like the rewritable CD-Rom. You have to refocus, you know. Because to acknowledge what actually happens -- that we walk away from $2,000 purchases every 24 months because they have become writhing rats' nests of DLL files, entangled programs, and minute Windows corruptions -- well, it's shameful to us, and wasteful, and to the industry that counts on our walking away. Why do we buy new machines? Because we want, more than anything, a fresh start. To learn more about the Minnesota Folk Festival, visit http://www.mfinley.com/folk. America's Best-Loved Futurist(TM), Michael Finley has a free gift for visitors to http://www.mfinley.com. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Michael Finley mfinleyOMIT@mfinley.com http://www.mfinley.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ###### From: roggblake@inamme.com (Roger Blake) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 11 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:43:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.226.157.67 X-Complaints-To: noc@capu.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 950402585 207.226.157.67 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:43:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:43:05 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49692 On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, Michael Finley wrote: > You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger >in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new >computer"? Speak for yourself. Fastest system I have is a 486, and I still use my Commodore 64 from time to time. -- Roger Blake (remove second "g" and second "m" from address for email) ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:51:35 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 28 Message-ID: <38A5C7D7.296A1C65@trailing-edge.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 950406695 26506 63.73.218.130 (13 Feb 2000 01:51:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2000 01:51:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49698 Michael Finley wrote: > > You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger > in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new > computer"? > > What's wrong with the old computer? > > Now, you may think you're a tough guy. Maybe you unflinchingly assess > the strengths and weaknesses of the old system and decide it's just > plain obsolete. Hard drive's too small, It's the new computers that have hard drives that are too small. 3.5 inches? Who are they kidding! Real computers have 14 inch and larger hard drives. > microprocessor's too slow, Microprocessors? Those are for amateurs. Pros use big card cages filled with 7400 series logic, not these untested "microprocessors". Those who want performance use big card cages filled with ECL :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 950409591 207.91.187.171 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:39:51 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:39:51 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:39:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49714 Michael Finley wrote: > What's wrong with the old computer? Nothing. That's why I turned it into a mail server that runs seti@home with it's spare cycles. > But there are things happening inside my current box, a Compaq > Presario 4784, that just defeat me. Here's a laundry list of problems > dating back to purchasing the machine two years ago: That's what you get for buying a Compaq. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: "Teo Zenios" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:15:26 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49709 Hi, I have 5 computers in the house, from a 486/133 to a p2-400 (they all have thier uses). The ONLY reason I have upgraded is because of 3d games. My old p166 ran office apps just fine (given enough memory). Hell I had to upgrade to 128mb just to play Unreal Tournament on this machine with a TNT video card. People who buy a p3-700 just for net surfing on a 56k modem are NUTS. TZ P.S. I find a complete reinstall of windows 9x every 8-12 months keeps you from throughing your old computer out the window (I'd like to kill the guy who wanted to share all those dll files instead of just sticking them in the program dir's) Roger Blake wrote in message ... >On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, Michael Finley wrote: >> You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger >>in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new >>computer"? > >Speak for yourself. Fastest system I have is a 486, and I still use my >Commodore 64 from time to time. > >-- > Roger Blake > (remove second "g" and second "m" from address for email) ###### From: rnewman@thecia.net (Ron Newman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:48:32 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-504.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!rnewman Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49708 In article <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com>, mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) wrote: > You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger > in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new > computer"? > > OK, freeze-frame. And think. > > What happens to most people at this juncture is that they proceed > mentally to the fun part -- what it will be like to have a nice new PC > with all the latest, biggest and fastest stuff in it. > > What I wish to suggest is that we proceed directly forward to the fun > part because otherwise we must cope with a very unfun question > embedded in the decision: > > What's wrong with the old computer? For me, the answer was simple: my old computer, a Mac Centris 610, had only 8 meg of memory, and ran Netscape 1.1N. This meant that it could not read any web pages that contained Java, JavaScript, or many other recent HTML extensions. It also could not run any recent version of RealPlayer or Adobe Acrobat Reader. My new iMac, with 96 meg and Netscape 4.5, suits me just fine. -- Ron Newman rnewman@thecia.net http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/ ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 22:20:25 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 39 Message-ID: <38A64D29.79D5@azstarnet.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> Reply-To: bill_h@azstarnet.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!supernews.com!remarQ.com!rQdQ!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49685 Michael Finley wrote: (too much stuff about what's WRONG with windows - you can go look it up) When you complain about WINDOWS, you should realize ERRORS ARE CUMULATIVE!!!! Assuming a new, clean, install, then that's the 'backup' you need to save, and re-install (from your backup) when the whole thing collapses. Due to the incredible number of bugs, there's virtually no point in regularly backing up your applications. Data, yes, but NOT the executables. Sorry to bring you the news. Allowing windows to START, as in booting immediately on a cold drive, is inviting disaster. Because the moron responsible has the thing WRITE to your drive before it can get properly warmed up. If you simply edit MSDOS.SYS and change BOOTGUI=1 to read BOOTGUI=0, this will no longer happen. Oh, you'll now have to type WIN to get the thing going, but if you simply give it a few minutes to break the chill, I'd bet most of your creeping crud of increasing strangeness would no longer occur. The one thing I really don't understand is WHY we don't all have the ability to freeze our installations to a CD-R, and just use the hard drive for transient sorts of things? I mean, how hard can it be? I've gotten a couple machines to boot/run off CD, but I've had to go in and hack and chop things to move files off the 'default' so programs will run split across two drives. Why aren't they DESIGNED to do this? Are the anti-virus people so powerful that they can prevent this sort of thing? It sure makes their products unneccessary. And your machine virtually bulletproof. Bill Tucson, AZ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> Organization: HiWAAY Information Services X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: cmadams@HiWAAY.net (Chris Adams) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <2ksp4.41473$ox5.10654645@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.147.154.56 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 950423934 208.147.154.56 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:38:54 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:38:54 MST Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:38:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49713 Once upon a time, Michael Finley said: > You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger >in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new >computer"? The only reason I've thought about upgrading my current computer is that it doesn't quite have enough "oomph" to do full speed software DVD decoding, and I don't want to buy a decoder card (I'd rather spend MORE money on something more impressive! :-) ). And when I really do replace my current computer (probably some years down the road), I won't "landfill" it. My previous computer, a perfectly workable Pentium Pro 200, is now my sister's (either at her home or classroom - she's a teacher). While the tech-types that hang out here might like the latest-greatest (although, in this newsgroup, that may not be true :-) ), not every computer application needs that. My mother's computer was originally a "hand-me-down", although it has since been upgraded as she discovered the wonders of full page full color scans and trying to edit them. My sister has a couple of old computers in her classroom. An old printer is attached to my mother's computer at her office at church. As long as there is someone technically capable to get them setup, schools, churches, community centers and such love old computers. Now the Atari 400 is in storage (I don't think anyone wants to fool with the membrane keyboard or the cranky cassette tape drive on it), and I keep my VT100 terminal in the closet (although I do pull it out when setting up new servers). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Information Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 34 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:45:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 950427924 205.166.146.8 (Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:45:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:45:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49693 In article <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com>, Michael Finley wrote: >You have to refocus, you know. Because to acknowledge what actually >happens -- that we walk away from $2,000 purchases every 24 months >because they have become writhing rats' nests of DLL files, entangled >programs, and minute Windows corruptions -- well, it's shameful to us, >and wasteful, and to the industry that counts on our walking away. Uhm. You're assuming we're the kind of psychotic idiots that don't reload Windows from scratch, if we even run it. I run Windows on exactly *one* machine, and even then, I reload it fairly frequently. And y'know what? It plays games beautifully. What's wrong with the old computer? Last one I replaced, I replaced because I wanted a larger screen, and I'm not enough of a hardware guy to do that to my laptop. ;) In short, your assertions have no correlation to what happens to the people *here*. Maybe Windows nuts, who use new computers that will never actually run correctly, have these problems. Me, I run NetBSD on most of my computers, and it's quite nice. If I have trouble, I write a mailing list, and a day or two later, it's fixed. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Feb 2000 13:45:43 GMT References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000213084543.22425.00003186@ng-fh1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49699 From: mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) Date: Sat, Feb 12, 2000 13:25 EST Message-id: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> >What's wrong with the old computer? There's not a thing wrong with my computers. However, both of my ISPs have problems. The producers of all those new games all have a version skew problem, too. [emoticon removes its tongue from its cheek with difficulty]. /BAH ###### From: prs@gol.com (Jacqui or (maybe) Pete) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Message-ID: <38a6b7f7.458133@nnrp.gol.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:10:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.43.126 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 950451007 203.216.43.126 (Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:10:07 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:10:07 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!nnrp.gol.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49686 On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:45:24 GMT, seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: >In article <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com>, >Michael Finley wrote: >>You have to refocus, you know. Because to acknowledge what actually >>happens -- that we walk away from $2,000 purchases every 24 months >>because they have become writhing rats' nests of DLL files, entangled >>programs, and minute Windows corruptions -- well, it's shameful to us, >>and wasteful, and to the industry that counts on our walking away. > >Uhm. ... >In short, your assertions have no correlation to what happens to the people >*here*. Maybe Windows nuts, who use new computers that will never actually >run correctly, have these problems. Me, I run NetBSD on most of my computers, >and it's quite nice. If I have trouble, I write a mailing list, and a day or >two later, it's fixed. ... True, true, true, but... I use all sorts of stuff at work, but I use some PC or other at home for WP, email, programming for fun, usual stuff. It's easier, you know, in the short term just to give in to the dark side. And they're cheap and easy. And yes, it's true, I shag around with the machine until it's broke and then I fix it. Then I shag around some more. Repeat until (skill+ knowledge) * intelligence < problem. Then I buy a new PC. Not often. Actually only twice so far in my life. OK, it's shameful, but the guy's right, even about moderately (ahem) knowledgable users. Lots of very knowledgable persons, even on this group, use PC's to do stuff. And they're often bloody baffled by what's wrong with the thing. And I just cannot get the CD working on this poor old box and yes I'm going to go down to Akehabara to buy a new one. Now, how many hail-mary's is that? ###### From: roggblake@inamme.com (Roger Blake) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:18:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.226.157.67 X-Complaints-To: noc@capu.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 950455126 207.226.157.67 (Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:18:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:18:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49694 On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:15:26 -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: >The ONLY reason I have upgraded is because of 3d games. I personally have no interest in games, and I usually access the Internet via terminal emulator dialing into a *nix shell account, something which even the Commodore 64 is quite capable of. Of course if I had my druthers, I'd much rather have a PDP-11 to play around with. (For home use one of the Micro-11 series would be the ticket.) I still prefer RSX11M+ to any OS that's come out of Microsoft. -- Roger Blake (remove second "g" and second "m" from address for email) ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 13 Feb 2000 19:19:19 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 9 Message-ID: <88703n$af0@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.8.136.130!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49722 People buy new computers the same reason they buy fancy cars. Status. How many people REALLY need a Pentium MMX to support Word Processing that consists of an occasional letter to the credit card company disputing a bill? Or a high powered spreadsheet to track household expenses? A 286 running MS Works was more than adequate for home use. It was just "boring" and "out of style". ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 13 Feb 2000 23:02:07 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 88 Message-ID: <6uhffcg3s0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 950479327 695 10.0.3.2 (13 Feb 2000 22:02:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2000 22:02:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49728 mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) writes: > You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger > in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new > computer"? No. I do not. I still like my old home PC (CPU upgraded 1 year ago, rest between 5 and 10 years old). I also still like my old office workstation (5 years old). > What's wrong with the old computer? CPU was too slow for Quake (particularly with non-3D video card) and 3D cards are badly supported. > etc. So, being unsentimental about these things, you landfill the old > system and replace it with a shiny new one. No landfill. 486-100 got a new case, even my older 386-16 is still in running condition, not to mention the Dragon32 (1MHz 6809 8bit), only the C64 is definitely dead now. > Take me. PC-wise, I'm a pretty tough guy. I change my own oil. I > rotate my tires. I own a shelf-full of books about Windows 98 plus a Wow that must be tough, stemming all them big books, not to mention surviving reading all the bloated booring crap in them. > But there are things happening inside my current box, a Compaq > Presario 4784, that just defeat me. Here's a laundry list of problems Phut. Buy Comcrap, you deserve what you get. > have I ever been able to connect at above 28k speed -- despite > downloading and installing the V90 BIOS upgrade. Wow. I have never got more then 14400. Most likely because I have an 5 year old 14400 modem. > For the past three months I have been unable to load more than one > Word document at a time. If I load more than two Internet Explorer I have 0 Word and 0 IE. Both will not even install on my box. Thank god (or Linus Torwalds) for this. > windows at a time, and shut the first one down first, it causes a > kernel 32 freeze-up. (Better you should have luna moths living in your I have not seen a single crash for at least 3 years. > I have never lost data because of them. But rescanning and rebooting > takes 15 minutes each time it happens. I get less that 5 minutes (that data is statistically not significant, as it is based on one sample, because I have only had one power faillure since getting this computer). > You can always reinstall Windows, and fix a few problems. That does not fix the problem. It only delays reoccurence. Installing Linux of *BSD fixes it. > Why do we buy new machines? Because we want, more than anything, a > fresh start. For that get an abandoned VAXstation and VMS or an old PDP-11. A real fresh start - with chances of an truly different experience. > America's Best-Loved Futurist(TM), Michael Finley has a free gift for Pfffffffffffff..... -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Wizzard, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Computer: a toy, speeds work so that you have more time to play ###### From: mwandel@nortel.ca (Markus Wandel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 14 Feb 2000 00:28:21 GMT Organization: Nortel Lines: 30 Message-ID: <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars0mc.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!!nrchh45.us.nortel.com!zcarh46f.bnr.ca!bcarh8ac.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49810 The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... Windows: No matter how disciplined you are, the stuff you install will result in an unmaintainable tangled unstable mess Unix: If you are undisciplined you will get an even worse mess than with Windows, but if you are careful you can keep things tidy indefinitely Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. Part of the reason a from-scratch install is so good is it gets rid of all the junk you installed that you aren't using any more. If you are running Linux, and of course Linux is not for everybody, when you do decide to reinstall from scratch, you can just spend the $2 for the CD blank and install a shiny new fresh-off-the-presses distribution. While this won't put the smell of newly molded plastic back on your computer, it's the next best thing. I would not be comfortable with any computer, regardless of the OS, that I don't know how to do a from-scratch reinstall on. I keep (on CD-ROM) all the install files even for software that I downloaded off the net. Modern PC Unix systems (Redhat Linux and FreeBSD to name two) come with package management systems that make it relatively easy to keep a tidy maintainable system going. Markus ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 14 Feb 2000 18:10:03 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 81 Message-ID: <889gdr012p3@news2.newsguy.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-342.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49779 In article <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, mwandel@nortel.ca (Markus Wandel) writes: > The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of > the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... > > [snip] > > Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. Not in *my* experience. I've never seen a Mac that didn't turn into a "mess" at some point. When I was an undergrad, I had several friends who were Mac programmers - CS students, good ones, doing real development on co-op assignments and developing their own substantial projects on their own Macs at home. These were folks with a dozen dogeared Mac internals books in a pile on the floor. All of their machines needed periodic intervention; fortunately, they were capable of doing it themselves. My brother worked as a proctor in a Mac lab when he was in college. He had to reboot locked-up machines daily. Appletalk frequently appeared to be the culprit - the machines on the far end of the chain were more prone to hanging. My partner and stepdaughter have both had multiple Macs at home and school, 68000-series and Power-series. They've been using Macs for years and have plenty of reference materials. It took my partner and me weeks to get the software for the PCMCIA modem that came with her PowerBook to install. (Turned out the copy that came on diskette with the modem was corrupt, and the vendor's web site had incorrect download, installation, and usage instructions. The utter lack of meaningful error messages didn't help.) Yesterday her PowerBook started hanging while running Netscape Navigator. It had been working just fine the day before. No user changes to the machine - no software installed or removed, no files created or deleted (by direct user action - of course Navigator was hitting its cache, the cookie repository, etc.). The machine had been shut down cleanly, and when it was started up the next day, Navigator was poison. The oh-so-useful "Disk First Aid" utility confirmed that each time Navigator was run it was corrupting the free-space bitmap and something else (it's too painful to remember clearly). Of course we had to reboot off the OS 8 installation CD to actually fix the problems, because DFA won't fix the drive it's running from. That didn't fix the Navigator problem, though, and after a few rounds Navigator just stopped running entirely. It looked (and sounded - the drive was making reseeking noises) like a media error to me. Hard disks do sometimes lose sectors. The OS ought to handle it a bit more gracefully, though. We still haven't gotten it working again. The many "Mac Secrets", "Mac Power Users", "Mac OS for Cretins", "What the Hell is Actually Going On in the Mac OS that Apple Doesn't Think You Can Possibly Comprehend" books were of little or no help. Oh, and since Internet Explorer was also installed on the machine, we gave that a try. PPP up and running, near as anyone could tell (no ping utility on the machine, no telnet, no ftp client, no DNS client, nothing to test with). But no matter what URL you handed it, IE would (immediately) pop up a message box claiming that "The netsite could not be found". DNS problems? Who knows? Sure, most of this is the fault of application or third-party software. But if we can't get any of the popular applications or the damn modem to work, how are we supposed to use the OS? In sum: In my experience, no matter what you do to a Mac, sooner or later you have a mess. And good luck cleaning it up. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University Advertising Copy in a Second Language Dept.: The precious ovum itself is proof of the oath sworn to those who set eyes upon Mokona: Your wishes will be granted if you are able to invest it with eternal radiance... -- Noriyuki Zinguzi ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:18:59 GMT Message-ID: <950552339.15349.0.nnrp-11.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 950552339 nnrp-11:15349 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.13 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49849 Markus Wandel wrote: >The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of >the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... >Windows: No matter how disciplined you are, the stuff you install will result > in an unmaintainable tangled unstable mess >Unix: If you are undisciplined you will get an even worse mess than > with Windows, but if you are careful you can keep things tidy > indefinitely >Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. You want a bet? I've seen macs hideously admined, crashing every couple of hours, the multi-user setup was a joke, and for no apparent reason, all the machines in a room of 60 would freeze for 30-60 seconds, even if they were not doing network stuff. Not to mention the floppy disk I had, that would crash any mac I inserted it in. (I think that was the anti-virus software interacting with the copy protection software) -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "Looks like his brainwaves crash a little short of the beach..." - Duckman. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <3jkgasc6uln429c53le5k3irsq8seie0u8@4ax.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:11:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 950555552 129.85.24.56 (Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:12:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:12:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49850 On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) wrote: [ snip ] >But there are things happening inside my current box, a Compaq >Presario 4784, that just defeat me. Here's a laundry list of problems >dating back to purchasing the machine two years ago: [ snip again ] >When I boot up, Windows waits a half hour before it suddenly, out of >the blue, demands the password it's supposed to ask for right away. >Each time it happens, I nearly blow coffee onto my monitor. What made >it wait so long? I saw this often enough to wonder if this time is not spent on trying to contact Redmond. When my users ask me "why is it doing that?", I usually say that this is a hint from our favorite software company that we don't spend enough money on their "upgrades". And seeing that it is Compaq, it just may to cc: its tattling to a certain hardware company ;-) [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:30:24 -0600 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 20 Message-ID: <889lif$pdr$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <3jkgasc6uln429c53le5k3irsq8seie0u8@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg2.micro.umn.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49771 Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote in message >>When I boot up, Windows waits a half hour before it suddenly, out of >>the blue, demands the password it's supposed to ask for right away. >>Each time it happens, I nearly blow coffee onto my monitor. What made >>it wait so long? This seems to happen every time I turn on "Microsoft" File "sharing". Sometimes it also gives this funny symptom:: Anytime you rename a file by typing over it's name, or move a file by dragging it, the desktop hangs for about 30 seconds, then does the operation. I've learned to NEVER turn on any Microsoft "File sharing" options, and depend on cranky old FTP. FTP has its flaws, but at least they show. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:20:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 950581205 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:20:05 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:20:05 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49767 In article <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, Markus Wandel wrote: >Unix: If you are undisciplined you will get an even worse mess than > with Windows, but if you are careful you can keep things tidy > indefinitely YMMV. I've never had a Unix system have the kinds of library trouble I've seen on Windows, just because versioning is better. >Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. That's a riot. Go say that in a Mac support group. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: "Adam Atkinson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 15 Feb 2000 6:23:9 +0000 Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo Lines: 14 Message-ID: <593.80T492T3832849ghira@mistral.co.uk> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d224-200.dial.mistral.co.uk X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 950596524 12612 195.184.224.200 (15 Feb 2000 06:35:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 06:35:24 GMT X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Newsreader: THOR 2.6a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!insnet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49806 On 14-Feb-00 00:28:21, Markus Wandel said: >Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. I have to agree with various other people in disagreeing with you. Pile enough extensions etc. in there and something may go wrong. I've seen it - though not since the early 90s since that's the last time I had regular contact with Macs. Has something changed since then to make the "bucket'o'extensions" approach to life absolutely safe? -- Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk) You've got to get a hat if you want to get ahead. ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:52:28 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950615548 24480 139.222.130.7 (15 Feb 2000 11:52:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 11:52:28 GMT In-Reply-To: <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49853 On 14 Feb 2000, Markus Wandel wrote: > The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of > the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... > > Windows: No matter how disciplined you are, the stuff you install will result > in an unmaintainable tangled unstable mess The trick is to use seperate partitions for applications and data. That way you can blitz a Windows box and reinstall everything quickly with Ghost. Of course nobody does it that way though... > Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. Hmm, Macs are perfectly capable of messing themselves up IME. If you want your Mac to run smoothly it's gonna need an OS reinstall every 10 or so crashes, or roughly once a month. > Modern PC Unix systems (Redhat Linux and FreeBSD to name two) come with > package management systems that make it relatively easy to keep a tidy > maintainable system going. They are really good, although I find they sometimes have differing ideas about where applications should live which is a pain. Still they generally work several thousand times more reliably he Windows' Add/Remove programs "feature". AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:56:48 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <889gdr012p3@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950615809 30395 139.222.130.7 (15 Feb 2000 11:56:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 11:56:49 GMT In-Reply-To: <889gdr012p3@news2.newsguy.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49852 On 14 Feb 2000, Michael Wojcik wrote: > In sum: In my experience, no matter what you do to a Mac, sooner or > later you have a mess. And good luck cleaning it up. Norton Disk Doctor is a god send here. I've seen it pull back Macs from beyond the grave. I don't think I'd want to do my job without it. AndyC ###### From: mwandel@nortel.ca (Markus Wandel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 15 Feb 2000 12:51:41 GMT Organization: Nortel Lines: 24 Message-ID: <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars0mc.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!!nrchh45.us.nortel.com!zcarh46f.bnr.ca!bcarh8ac.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49815 In article <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, Markus Wandel wrote: >The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of >the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... > >... > >Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. I stand corrected! Everybody says the Mac is just as bad. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. All I know is that with _zilch_ Mac experience I managed to set up a HD for a Mac+ once and that I managed to do a transplant of an 80MB SCSI HD into a Powerbook 140 where a 40MB was before, transferring the entire contents over via floppies, without getting myself into significant trouble. I have very little experience with Windows too but I know it's bad because even with so little experience I've gotten myself into trouble and I've seen fairly expert users having to reformat and reinstall their entire system because something got messed up in their registry. Notice I said "fairly" expert; I'm sure there are people who could fix a Windows registry blindfolded with a hex editor, but there aren't very many of them. Markus ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:37:56 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 32 Message-ID: <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p51-puffback-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 950622457 977 194.168.68.231 (15 Feb 2000 13:47:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 13:47:37 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49858 > I have very little experience with Windows too but I know it's bad because > even with so little experience I've gotten myself into trouble and I've seen > fairly expert users having to reformat and reinstall their entire system > because something got messed up in their registry. Notice I said "fairly" > expert; I'm sure there are people who could fix a Windows registry blindfolded > with a hex editor, but there aren't very many of them. > You mean an MCSE, which of course stands for 'Must Consult Someone Experienced'. The proliferation of the computer markets with half-wits who have managed to buy themselves such a qualification is obscene, particularly as most of them should feel guilty when collecting their pay cheque. Ask them anything that requires them to think, and they're usually stumped. They also have a habit of quoting knowledge without the experience to back it up. And they know sqit-all about security - witness all the NT machines out there with FAT boot partitions, leaving the core OS files world writable!! I've not used a hex editor on the registry, but I used them 10 years ago to hack DOS application printer drivers to allow them to print the pound-sterling currency symbol, with no documentation on format. You at the other side of the pond have no idea what problems that used to cause before we all standardised on the ISO-8859-1 charset! And I've reverse engineered a DOS device driver to find out which IO ports get written to - results of that are in the Linux devel kernel. I don't want an MSCE, thanks! (Says me, a humble Unix/Network admin who can't find work in my part of Northen England. People never test my skills, see...). ###### From: jmorgan@dirconspam.co.uk (Jon Morgan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:18:48 GMT Organization: JRI Europe Ltd Reply-To: jmorgan@dirconspam.co.uk Message-ID: <38a7dba5.784980@news.dircon.co.uk> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.112.56.11 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.112.32.19 Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: newsread3.dircon.co.uk X-Trace: reader.news.dircon.net 950627886 28170 194.112.32.19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!peer1.news.dircon.net!peer2.news.dircon.net!reader.news.dircon.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49787 On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) said something about: [stuff snipped about PCs...] Well, a lot of people have pointed out that the problem is with the software, not with the PC hardware (except some of the really dodgy Compaq stuff). The last system I bought was a second hand Alpha workstation to run UNIX and VMS on. The one before that was a second hand VAXstation 2000 (yes, it WAS that long ago). Oh PCs? Err... I bought a 8086 with a whopping 20Mb hard drive and a massive 640kb of memory, so that I could do some of my A-level computer science project at home. The aggregate age of this stuff is older than I am. And they don't crash. Ever. (Well, the 8086 running MS-DOS v3.3 excepted, but v3.3 was the best of the bunch if you ask me, which doesn't really say that much.) "Buy new computers every two years." Furrfu! -jon. ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:01:01 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950630461 3224 139.222.130.7 (15 Feb 2000 16:01:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 16:01:01 GMT In-Reply-To: <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49847 On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Paul Grayson wrote: > You mean an MCSE, which of course stands for 'Must Consult Someone > Experienced'. The proliferation of the computer markets with half-wits who > have managed to buy themselves such a qualification is obscene, particularly > as most of them should feel guilty when collecting their pay cheque. Ask > them anything that requires them to think, and they're usually stumped. They > also have a habit of quoting knowledge without the experience to back it up. > And they know sqit-all about security - witness all the NT machines out > there with FAT boot partitions, leaving the core OS files world writable!! The trouble is that an NT machine that goes screwy (and lets face it, most M$ software goes screwy from time to time) is pretty much unsalvagable without a FAT boot partition. Unless you're prepared to risk all your data to a "repair" disk. Has anyone ever actually see one of those work??? > I don't want an MSCE, thanks! > > (Says me, a humble Unix/Network admin who can't find work in my part of > Northen England. People never test my skills, see...). I wouldn't mind, on the grounds that I could get paid a decent wage if I had one. As a qualification though it means little to me... AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:25:59 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <6uhffcg3s0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950631960 29140 139.222.130.7 (15 Feb 2000 16:26:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 16:26:00 GMT In-Reply-To: <6uhffcg3s0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49851 On 13 Feb 2000, Neil Franklin wrote: > mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) writes: > > > You know how every couple of years you look at your PC, poke a finger > > in the air, and declare, "Gee, it would be sure be nice to get a new > > computer"? > > No. I do not. I still like my old home PC (CPU upgraded 1 year ago, > rest between 5 and 10 years old). I also still like my old office > workstation (5 years old). Mine is ~4 years old, in which time it's had a CPU upgrade, a new hard disk and a new graphics card. It's not ready for landfill yet though as it still does everything I need (including the odd bit of Episode 1 Racer.) Once it is past it, I'd be more likely to use it as a backup/test machine or pass it on to my sister who is still happy with her trusty 486. My Amstrad CPC still gets semi-regular usage as, to a lesser extent, does my Speccy +2. The only machien which is well an truly dead is my CPC+ and only then because I fried it. :-( > > You can always reinstall Windows, and fix a few problems. > > That does not fix the problem. It only delays reoccurence. Installing > Linux of *BSD fixes it. :-) I got SuSE 6.3 yesterday and it's fantastic. I'd dump Windross altogether but for a few applications I really need and the odd game of Tomb Raider. > > Why do we buy new machines? Because we want, more than anything, a > > fresh start. That's one hell of an expensive fresh start. Most people buy new machines 'cos the software bods have told them they need it. AndyC ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 15 Feb 2000 11:32:45 -0500 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 13 Message-ID: <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49775 In article <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net>, Paul Grayson wrote: >You mean an MCSE, which of course stands for 'Must Consult Someone >Experienced'. ITYM "Makes Cretins Self-Employed". Another good one: "Moron Confused by Sun Equipment" - nothing like a feci^Wface of $DATABASE Field Circus luser asking (in Solaris-only shop) "how to get into Windows Explorer?" -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:11:29 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 46 Message-ID: <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p52-falcon-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net 950652054 4368 194.168.61.172 (15 Feb 2000 22:00:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 22:00:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49928 > On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Paul Grayson wrote: > > > You mean an MCSE, which of course stands for 'Must Consult Someone > > Experienced'. The proliferation of the computer markets with half-wits who > > have managed to buy themselves such a qualification is obscene, particularly > > as most of them should feel guilty when collecting their pay cheque. Ask > > them anything that requires them to think, and they're usually stumped. They > > also have a habit of quoting knowledge without the experience to back it up. > > And they know sqit-all about security - witness all the NT machines out > > there with FAT boot partitions, leaving the core OS files world writable!! > > The trouble is that an NT machine that goes screwy (and lets face it, most > M$ software goes screwy from time to time) is pretty much unsalvagable > without a FAT boot partition. Unless you're prepared to risk all your data > to a "repair" disk. Has anyone ever actually see one of those work??? Done that once myself. You boot off the install media, select repair, then select what you want to repair. Manage to get a machine that wouldn't boot to boot up fine, after some piece of software had done serious damage during an install. Most MCSEs that I've met think the repair disk is an emergency boot disk, when in fact all it contains is a portion of the registry. I've seen them trying to boot off one on more than one occasion, then wonder why they're getting nowhere. FAT partitions, though, are a big security hole under NT, and a significant performance problem as well. > > I don't want an MSCE, thanks! > > > > (Says me, a humble Unix/Network admin who can't find work in my part of > > Northen England. People never test my skills, see...). > > I wouldn't mind, on the grounds that I could get paid a decent wage if I > had one. As a qualification though it means little to me... > Seems to be the case here. I've even stumped as low as going for an NT contract, as I know more than the supposedly qualified. Most want proof of qualification. ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:15:20 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 20 Message-ID: <88cias$48g$2@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p52-falcon-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net 950652060 4368 194.168.61.172 (15 Feb 2000 22:01:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 22:01:00 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49929 > >You mean an MCSE, which of course stands for 'Must Consult Someone > >Experienced'. > > ITYM "Makes Cretins Self-Employed". Another good one: "Moron Confused > by Sun Equipment" - nothing like a feci^Wface of $DATABASE Field Circus > luser asking (in Solaris-only shop) "how to get into Windows Explorer?" > LOL! $DATABASE wasn't Coputer Associates, by any chance? They seem to be prone at employing clueless idiots with nice suits, and charging them out at a fortune a day. I once had a field circus moron wipe the entire contents of a disk array during a motherboard swap-out. I had to spend 8 hours (from 6 in the evening) on the phone guiding him through an OS reinstall and rebuild. Grrr! ###### From: Ron Newman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 15 Feb 2000 10:56:35 -0800 Organization: Extra Newsguy News Service [http://extra.newsguy.com] Lines: 12 Message-ID: <88c7h3$2tan@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-159.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49874 On 15 Feb 2000 11:32:45 -0500, in article <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu>, >ITYM "Makes Cretins Self-Employed". Another good one: "Moron Confused >by Sun Equipment" - nothing like a feci^Wface of $DATABASE Field Circus >luser asking (in Solaris-only shop) "how to get into Windows Explorer?" Actually, there *is* a Solaris version of Internet Explorer available these days. -- Ron Newman rnewman@thecia.net http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/home.html ###### From: Paul Guertin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:50:56 +0900 Organization: Amalgamated Karma Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> Reply-To: pg@sff.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p-548.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49885 rnewman@thecia.net (Ron Newman) wrote: > my old computer, a Mac Centris 610, > had only 8 meg of memory, and ran Netscape 1.1N. This meant that > it could not read any web pages that contained Java, JavaScript, or > many other recent HTML extensions. You make it sound like a bad thing. Paul Guertin pg@sff.net ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu> <88cias$48g$2@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@texas.net Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:57:32 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-5TO03L3iLE2gI6GWrNucIbiby6ZeNkaihzGVOIjnT7FjnZZCR2EDfnWQ+W/IQDvi48xhkvptXnHrrf+!aOopHT7VjKm83AYUi8yCuw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:57:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49866 On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:15:20 -0000, Paul Grayson wrote: >$DATABASE wasn't Coputer Associates, by any chance? They seem to be prone at >employing clueless idiots with nice suits, and charging them out at a >fortune a day. $DEITY, don't get me started about Computer Assholes. Back in my mainframe days[1], it was not at all uncommon for shops to buy a product on the basis that CA *didn't* sell it. More than once, those shops were disappointed when CA bought the company that they'd bought software from... CA's tech support sucked, their manuals weren't even useful as toilet paper (too glossy), and their billing was NEVER right. Half the time, we didn't even know what customer number to use when calling for tech support because they couldn't get their story straight. One of the bright spots of my getting into Unix systems work was getting away from CA. [1] That is, back when I had been seduced by the green side of the Force, and was doing MVS systems programming for a living, instead of for fun. ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:25:49 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 71 Message-ID: <88ct3e$5a4$2@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu> <88cias$48g$2@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p04-grebe-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net 950663086 5444 194.168.63.124 (16 Feb 2000 01:04:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2000 01:04:46 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49927 "Jay Maynard" wrote in message news:slrn8ajmgo.6h4.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx... > On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:15:20 -0000, Paul Grayson > wrote: > >$DATABASE wasn't Coputer Associates, by any chance? They seem to be prone at > >employing clueless idiots with nice suits, and charging them out at a > >fortune a day. > > $DEITY, don't get me started about Computer Assholes. Back in my mainframe > days[1], it was not at all uncommon for shops to buy a product on the basis > that CA *didn't* sell it. More than once, those shops were disappointed when > CA bought the company that they'd bought software from... > > CA's tech support sucked, their manuals weren't even useful as toilet paper > (too glossy), and their billing was NEVER right. Half the time, we didn't > even know what customer number to use when calling for tech support because > they couldn't get their story straight. One of the bright spots of my > getting into Unix systems work was getting away from CA. > Sorry to mention it, but they've got worse. I only started working with their products in June last year, and by October I was off work ill with stress. The manuals are next to useless, explaining how to start the install process and not much more - you have to pay for consultancy to find anything out. They've started putting the manuals on CD now, which is just the same slim volume in a PDF file format. Even their Windows GUI programs are badly documented. For example one program had a menu option whose exact name I can't recall, but I wanted to know what it did as the software was not behaving itself, but for sake of argument lets call it "Grokle Widget", ie using a made-up verb. Searching the on-line help produced the following entry :- "Grokle Widget - selecting this option Grokles the Widget". As I didn't know what either word refered to, and neither were anywhere in the documentation, I was totally stuck. The support line in the UK knows nothing about any of their products. For example, I had one process taking up 99% CPU time. After 3 weeks CA support finally answered my query - they told me to stop the process!. Often calls go on for years with no attempt resolution, even if I point out the facts. Their flagship Unicenter systems management solution is the biggest insult I have ever come across. Generates masses of network traffic. The monitoring agents consume masses of both CPU and memory on every platform I've seen, even if they are monitoring less that a dozen separate stats. Finding which system has gone down is often impossible, as the map doesn't reflect the lastest status. And it requires NT servers everywhere, even if monitoring Unix or OS/390 systems. They keep acquiring new pieces of software and renaming them to a Unicentre option, even if the integration is un-necessary. The company I worked at were a major CA user in the UK. They had a multi-million pound contract. Yet when an NT backup utility was purchased for a remote office I had to go through the following farce to get the software to run. Call UK office. Get transferred to office in Europe. Talk to someone whose first language was German and read out a 40 character code plus other info. Wait for a fax to arrive with the correct key. Curse as one of the characters was mis-interpreted due to language differences and start again... I have turned down an offer for work with a company because I discovered that they were a CA reseller. I value my sanity too much... ###### From: beka_thomas@p8-term2-indy.netdirect.net (Rebeka Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:52:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.210.87 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 950665962 204.248.210.87 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:52:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:52:42 EDT Organization: Net Direct, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.netdirect.net!beka_thomas Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49902 In article <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, Markus Wandel wrote: >The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of >the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... >Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. My response agrees with both this and various replies. i'll quote from Douglas Adams' "Mostly Harmless" for the example: The difference between something that probably won't go wrong and something that cannot possibly go wrong is that when something that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong, it is usually impossible to get at or fix. --RST G! a?16 d? e*- h! r++ s: t tv++ b+++>++++ w--- x+*>** C++ D? DI+ E--- G K+++ L++>+++ M+>- o O? P+ PE PGP-- PS+++ UL++++ V-- W- X- Y?;beka.thomas@yahoo_com "Just wait for someone to say something interesting, and nick it."-Laura,afda ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:59:03 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950709544 28985 139.222.130.7 (16 Feb 2000 13:59:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2000 13:59:04 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49923 On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Mike Swaim wrote: > Assuming that the directory structure isn't trashed, you simply boot > to your minimal backup installation, and fix the primary installation. > NT can installed multiple times on a partition, so a common hack is to > have a primary and secondary installation on the same disk. If the primary > dies, boot to the secondary. Hmm, neat idea. I must remember to suggest that to someone round here. At the moment we usually have a small DOS 6 partition with a copy of the DOS NTFS reader to get at the main partition if all else fails. A backup NT installation might be more useful. AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:03:05 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950709786 29676 139.222.130.7 (16 Feb 2000 14:03:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2000 14:03:06 GMT In-Reply-To: <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49925 On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Paul Grayson wrote: > Done that once myself. You boot off the install media, select repair, then > select what you want to repair. Manage to get a machine that wouldn't boot > to boot up fine, after some piece of software had done serious damage during > an install. Most MCSEs that I've met think the repair disk is an emergency > boot disk, when in fact all it contains is a portion of the registry. I've > seen them trying to boot off one on more than one occasion, then wonder why > they're getting nowhere. That seems to wrok okay if you've just corrupted a boot sector or something simple like that. However I wouldn't trust one of those ERDs on an important machine. Their willingness to delete all the users and trash unspecified portions of the registry is just a bit too extreme IMHO. > Seems to be the case here. I've even stumped as low as going for an NT > contract, as I know more than the supposedly qualified. Most want proof of > qualification. Come the revolution they'll all regret that attitude. ;-> AndyC ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers From: bmarcum@iglou.com X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts10-30.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts10-30.iglou.com Message-ID: <38aab636@news.iglou.com> Date: 16 Feb 2000 09:37:42 -0500 X-Trace: 16 Feb 2000 09:37:42 -0500, lou-ts10-30.iglou.com Organization: IgLou Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 8 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: news-incoming.iglou.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!novia!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.iglou.com!lou-ts10-30.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49863 On 2000-02-15 paul.grayson@virgin.net said: >You mean an MCSE, which of course stands for 'Must Consult Someone >Experienced'. For another interpretation of the initials MCSE, look at www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/00feb/20000213.html Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:47:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.145.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 950741244 212.126.145.106 (Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:47:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:47:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49999 On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) sprachen: >Why do we buy new machines? Because we want, more than anything, a >fresh start. Not really. The last time I upgraded my hard drive I had a right pain of a time getting the old crap copied over to it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 01:29:33 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 24 Message-ID: <88gfe7$db8$3@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p29-pochard-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net 950780167 13672 194.168.68.89 (17 Feb 2000 09:36:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2000 09:36:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50106 > > Seems to be the case here. I've even stumped as low as going for an NT > > contract, as I know more than the supposedly qualified. Most want proof of > > qualification. > > Come the revolution they'll all regret that attitude. ;-> > Had that problem again today. Interviewer said I was the most capable person they had seen, but the lack of the piece of paper meant that I couldn't be hired due to company policy. :~) The problem with all of these certifications is that they don't teach you want to do when things go wrong. I was one of the few CBE (Certified Banyan Engineer) in the UK, but most of the knowledge I applied I learnt from outside of the courses. I was one of the few who could patch a filesystem using the debugger to delete a file that couldn't be killed off any other way. And now I can't even get a simple PC admin job. No one wants to know me, sob! ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 01:31:58 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 12 Message-ID: <88gfe7$db8$4@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p29-pochard-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net 950780167 13672 194.168.68.89 (17 Feb 2000 09:36:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2000 09:36:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50107 > Assuming that the directory structure isn't trashed, you simply boot > to your minimal backup installation, and fix the primary installation. > NT can installed multiple times on a partition, so a common hack is to > have a primary and secondary installation on the same disk. If the primary > dies, boot to the secondary. > I know of one place that does that, and then whenever there is a serious problem the bozos in MIS just reload the whole box...... ###### From: "John Gilmer" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:18:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: CrossLink Internet Services 1-888-4-CROSSLINK Message-ID: <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Cache-Post-Path: pizza.crosslink.net!unknown@dyn58.c5200-2.king-george.246.crosslink.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.124.14 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 950801590 27571 206.246.124.14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50035 wrote in message news:38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net... > On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael > Finley) sprachen: > > >Why do we buy new machines? Because we want, more than anything, a > >fresh start. Well, the first thing you usually do (if you didn't toss the old machine) is to network them together somhow (via parallel cable if you must). > > Not really. The last time I upgraded my hard drive I had a right pain > of a time getting the old crap copied over to it. Everytime I "upgrade" my hard drive (I have two machines) the new drive is several times (the first time it was over 50 times) the capacity of the old drive. In my last upgade I put in an 11 Gbyte on top of a 3.5 Gbyte that was getting full. Just copied the entire disk using right button drag and click copy. Nice thing is that you can then be very, very casual about deleting stuff from the over-filled drive. When applications or shortcuts can't find what they want I usually can just them to look at "D." At worse, the old stuff is still there. I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Why pamper life's complexity, > when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? > > - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### From: christian@yokoda.com (chris chow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:11:53 +0000 Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.tw2.com (62.232.8.252) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 950803927 1335887 62.232.8.252 (16 [22051]) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mail.tw2.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49986 > I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just > throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would see the point about backup devices ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:33:52 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca7.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 950805233 28871 139.222.130.7 (17 Feb 2000 16:33:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2000 16:33:53 GMT In-Reply-To: <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca7.uea.ac.uk!a962115 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50095 On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, John Gilmer wrote: > Well, the first thing you usually do (if you didn't toss the old machine) is > to network them together somhow (via parallel cable if you must). Or install the old drive as a second drive in the new machine and copy it across directly. AndyC ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 17 Feb 2000 17:57:44 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <88hcqo01306@news2.newsguy.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-145.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49994 In article , christian@yokoda.com (chris chow) writes: > > I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Many people don't, until they lose something important. > > Just throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if > your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would > see the point about backup devices While exploding PCs are relatively rare, fires aren't. This is a valid concern. *My* important data is always backed up to multiple offsite archives, some in a fire safe. And the backed-up data isn't generally available for writing, so it can't be damaged by viruses and trojans and other malicious software. And it can't be accidentally deleted by user error or OS or application bugs. And many people will fill up even three large drives sooner or later - much faster than they'll fill up a box of 4mm tape. (*Good* OSes - AIX, for example - can restore themselves from a backup tape. Just build a bootable backup, put the tape in the drive, put the key in the Service position, power up, and select "Restore the system" when the service menu comes up. With other OSes it's more of a hassle, but still a lot easier than recreating the machine from nothing.) These days, I back up to a combination of writable CDs and 4mm tape. 4mm tape is good for whole-system backups; CDs are good for dumping just the stuff that can't be reinstalled or trivially recreated (documents, source code, etc.). Considering how inexpensive and reliable both of those technologies are, I don't know why anyone would employ the "copy an entire drive over to another" method as a backup system. But then I've never understood people who don't bother putting virus detection software on their Windows or MacOS boxes, or using surge protectors or UPSes, or firewalling their Internet-connected systems. Or people who don't wear their seatbelt when they ride in a car. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University The way things were, were the way things were, and they stayed that way because they had always been that way. -- Jon Osborne ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:20:32 -0800 Organization: Simco Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <88hcqo01306@news2.newsguy.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50067 Michael Wojcik wrote in message news:88hcqo01306@news2.newsguy.com... > > In article , christian@yokoda.com (chris chow) writes: > > > > I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. > > Many people don't, until they lose something important. > > > > Just throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > > > well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if > > your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would > > see the point about backup devices > I saw first hand the value of tape. While coming back from lunch one day I noticed a thick column of smoke coming from a nearby neighborhood, one where a customer was located. Turned out it was the customer's warehouse and office going up in flames from a punctured propane tank. No matter how many disk drives or raid arrays they might have had, if the receptionist hadn't had the foresight to grab the previous night's backup tapes on a nearby desk they would have lost all their financial records, including payroll. Instead they were back up the next morning in our conference room with some extra terminals, running their accounting on our machine with files restored from their backup. Their disk drives were a total loss, heat and smoke damage. Without the tapes they could not have made payroll that week, they didn't even have a list of employees left. It brought home just how important portable backup media is to keep you running after a disaster. We modified our own policy after that, now we do day of the week (10 copies, plus one for each Friday of the month) backup onsite and monthly offsite backups, archived for three years. Some of our customers even go to day of the month (31 backup copies). We never sell a turnkey system without a tape drive sufficient to hold the entire disk image on backup, and a set of labelled tapes to do day of the week backups. We have never had a problem with customers losing files on the systems we provided, though we do get calls when the homegrown PC network the son-in-law of the owner put together without any backup at all suddenly loses a drive with everyone's spreadsheets. Jack Peacock Jack Peacock ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:24:57 -0800 Organization: Simco Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50063 John Gilmer wrote in message news:950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net... > > I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just > throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > Please Please Please tell this to as many people as possible. I hope many more system admins take your advice to heart. Disaster recovery consulting is a blank check type business, very profitable when you have a customer in a blind panic. Advice like that is guaranteed to get me a lot of business. Jack Peacock ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 42 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:24:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 950822667 205.166.146.8 (Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:24:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:24:27 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49996 In article , Jack Peacock wrote: >Please Please Please tell this to as many people as possible. I hope >many more system admins take your advice to heart. *sigh*. >Disaster recovery consulting is a blank check type business, very >profitable when you have a customer in a blind panic. Advice like that >is guaranteed to get me a lot of business. And as a support rep, I'd like to say, please do *NOT* go with that strategy. Backups. Backups on multiple media. Off-site backups. Current backups. Old backups. Last year's backups. CD's with "master" copies of difficult material. Caches. Spare hardware kept on site. An extra computer if you can possibly do it. And, most importantly, if you don't know much about the system you're using DO NOT TOUCH A GODDAMN THING UNTIL YOU ARE TALKING TO SOMEONE WHO DOES! The number of people who have called support to say "well, we tried this..." is awful. The most heart-rending call I've had (apart from people being relay-raped, who are often in tears) was a guy who got *ALMOST* all the way through a crucial upgrade (to a newer version of the OS that supported his tape). Then he followed the instructions for adding a new disk, including *FORMATTING* the disk all the data was on. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 02:45:26 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-41.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 950841797 27837 206.87.124.123 (18 Feb 2000 02:43:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2000 02:43:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50012 christian@yokoda.com (chris chow) wrote: > >> I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just >> throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > >well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if >your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would >see the point about backup devices I have my hard drives in removable bays. When I want to backup, I mount the backup hard drive and I'm off. It's a bit more than that since I went cheap with the sort where the drives can only be mounted/unmounted with the power off, but as my system is a standalone, I can live with this. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:23:06 -0600 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 32 Message-ID: <38ACC92B.3FFDBF07@plano.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> <88gfe7$db8$3@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49951 Paul Grayson wrote: > > > > Seems to be the case here. I've even stumped as low as going for an NT > > > contract, as I know more than the supposedly qualified. Most want proof > of > > > qualification. > > > > Come the revolution they'll all regret that attitude. ;-> > > > > Had that problem again today. Interviewer said I was the most capable person > they had seen, but the lack of the piece of paper meant that I couldn't be > hired due to company policy. :~) > > The problem with all of these certifications is that they don't teach you > want to do when things go wrong. I was one of the few CBE (Certified Banyan > Engineer) in the UK, but most of the knowledge I applied I learnt from > outside of the courses. I was one of the few who could patch a filesystem > using the debugger to delete a file that couldn't be killed off any other > way. > > And now I can't even get a simple PC admin job. No one wants to know me, > sob! > That's because *no* one will be able to do business without the "mark of the beast." So I guess that means M$ certification *is* the "mark of the beast." (If you add up the ascii values for MCBE (or whatever), will you get 666?) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:31:39 -0600 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 16 Message-ID: <38ACCB2C.6FB50940@plano.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nexus.news.chello.be!news.tvd.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49948 Peter Seebach wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > The most heart-rending call I've had (apart from people being relay-raped, who > are often in tears) was a guy who got *ALMOST* all the way through a crucial > upgrade (to a newer version of the OS that supported his tape). Then he > followed the instructions for adding a new disk, including *FORMATTING* the > disk all the data was on. > Is this a guy who reads _Brain Surgery Self Taught_ and practices on *himself*? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 18 Feb 2000 16:47:31 GMT Organization: EnterAct Corp. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell-1.enteract.com X-Trace: news.enteract.com 950892451 10939 207.229.143.40 (18 Feb 2000 16:47:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@enteract.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2000 16:47:31 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990624 ("Dawnrazor") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.3-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!betanews.enteract.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50005 Peter Seebach wrote: : In article <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, : Markus Wandel wrote: :>Unix: If you are undisciplined you will get an even worse mess than :> with Windows, but if you are careful you can keep things tidy :> indefinitely : YMMV. I've never had a Unix system have the kinds of library trouble I've : seen on Windows, just because versioning is better. I have. Linux box with C library version conflicts. Royal pain in the ass. Elf versioning sucks dead beaver dicks through a straw. -- David Scheidt Stop being Rambo, and start being Ghandi. -- Paul Tomblin ###### Message-ID: <38AD876B.C23B2340@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:03:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.15.101.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 950896996 63.15.101.205 (Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:03:16 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:03:16 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49977 chris chow wrote: > > I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just > > throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > > well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if > your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would > see the point about backup devices No kidding! Fire, Floods, major electrical disturbance, major mechanicaldisturbance (tornado, big guy leaning on rack :-) They've all happened ( The last flood at one of our customers sites was handled by purchasing a boat and physically rescuing the computers before the water got high enough to hurt the equipment, it eventually was half way up the racks.) Many large corporations have disaster recovery plans which require off-site storage of critical data. If not I recommend a safe deposit box as a simple solution (its what I do with my home office back-up's). When at customer sites doing training of the maintenance personnel, I always point at our system (typically a dozen racks or so) and then to the back-up tape that I've just taught them to make and quote that movie of a few years ago, "show me the money". Hopefully they get the idea. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:26:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 950901992 205.166.146.8 (Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:26:32 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:26:32 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49992 In article <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com>, David Scheidt wrote: >I have. Linux box with C library version conflicts. Royal pain in the ass. >Elf versioning sucks dead beaver dicks through a straw. Must be one of those weird Linux features. On NetBSD, you have library version numbers. Thus, I might have libc.12.0.so libc.12.2.so libc.13.0.so libc.14.0.so libc.14.1.so Any program linked with libc 12 will try to link to 12.2.so - it gets any bugfix changes, but is shielded from any API changes, because API changes require a new *major* number. Something I linked when 14.0 was the newest will now link itself to 14.1. The only "version conflicts" I've ever seen with this are if I load a binary without loading any corresponding libraries. If there *is* a relevant library, everyone is happy. -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: beka_thomas@p8-term2-indy.netdirect.net (RST) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> Reply-To: com_yahoo@thomas.beka X-followup-info: 'Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:26:32 GMT' '' 'alt.folklore.computers' 'Peter Seebach' 'seebs@plethora.net' Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:36:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.248.210.54 X-Trace: news.netdirect.net 950913406 204.248.210.54 (Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:36:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:36:46 EDT Organization: Net Direct, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.online.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.netdirect.net!beka_thomas Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50068 Peter Seebach wrote: @In article <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com>, @David Scheidt wrote: @>I have. Linux box with C library version conflicts. Royal pain in the ass. @>Elf versioning sucks dead beaver dicks through a straw. @ @Must be one of those weird Linux features. On NetBSD, you have library @version numbers. Thus, I might have @ libc.12.0.so @ libc.12.2.so @ libc.13.0.so @ libc.14.0.so @ libc.14.1.so @ @Any program linked with libc 12 will try to link to 12.2.so - it gets any @bugfix changes, but is shielded from any API changes, because API changes @require a new *major* number. Something I linked when 14.0 was the newest @will now link itself to 14.1. must be a problem with GNU. they renamed libc.12 or something to libc.5 ###### From: "Bill Silvey" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:34:27 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 80 Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88bv3d$f2a@weyl.math.psu.edu> <88cias$48g$2@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> <88ct3e$5a4$2@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50066 Paul Grayson wrote in message news:88ct3e$5a4$2@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net... > > "Jay Maynard" wrote in message > news:slrn8ajmgo.6h4.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx... > > On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:15:20 -0000, Paul Grayson > > wrote: > > >$DATABASE wasn't Coputer Associates, by any chance? They seem to be prone > at > > >employing clueless idiots with nice suits, and charging them out at a > > >fortune a day. > > > > $DEITY, don't get me started about Computer Assholes. Back in my mainframe > > days[1], it was not at all uncommon for shops to buy a product on the > basis > > that CA *didn't* sell it. More than once, those shops were disappointed > when > > CA bought the company that they'd bought software from... > > > > CA's tech support sucked, their manuals weren't even useful as toilet > paper > > (too glossy), and their billing was NEVER right. Half the time, we didn't > > even know what customer number to use when calling for tech support > because > > they couldn't get their story straight. One of the bright spots of my > > getting into Unix systems work was getting away from CA. > > > > Sorry to mention it, but they've got worse. I only started working with > their products in June last year, and by October I was off work ill with > stress. > > The manuals are next to useless, explaining how to start the install process > and not much more - you have to pay for consultancy to find anything out. > They've started putting the manuals on CD now, which is just the same slim > volume in a PDF file format. Can I just jump in here real quick and give a "me too" to this CA bashing? I worked in Production Control for a company that uses IBM/S390 for batch financial processing (thank $DEITY [as you folks say :-) ] that I got out...give me nice stupid PCs to work on). About a year ago I took a class in EZTrieve. So they tell me. I'm not sure - I sat through the class, I heard what the instructor SAID, I tried to apply it to my IBM systems knowledge, I wrote the code examples as she spat them out and it DIDN'T WORK. I have a CA EZTrieve manual. I have a CA Certificate for EZTrieve. I have NO IDEA how to code in EZTrieve. The instructor was 10^5 degrees of useless. We broke, over the course of a 9 hour class, six times for 15 minutes each. SIX TIMES, NOT COUNTING AN HOUR LUNCH. 2.5 hours WASTED. I was having problems getting the last (and allegedly most important) code sample to work to which this high paid doorstop replied "Don't worry, you'll get it." ?!?! Our beloved instructor busied herself playing WinSolitaire while we attempted to code. Useless. Utterly, utterly useless. Nice lady, poor instructor. Oh, and CA *never ever* responded to my Emails regarding what I viewed as potential security problems with CA7 (more junk!) and EZTrieve. -- Bill Silvey, Oathmaster, Clan Wolverine - Fuck the IDSA "I post to see what kind of responses I will get. I don't know of every single facet of a subject I post on." - ATN082268's confession in posting <1998060405070500.BAA13596-rgm@ladder01.news.aol.com> that it does in fact post in rec.games.mecha only to troll. Y'wanna email me? Get the F outa my email address! ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:38:37 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 25 Message-ID: <88kpqf$7an$6@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50-kingfisher-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 950921871 7511 194.168.67.50 (19 Feb 2000 00:57:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 00:57:51 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49943 > : YMMV. I've never had a Unix system have the kinds of library trouble I've > : seen on Windows, just because versioning is better. > > I have. Linux box with C library version conflicts. Royal pain in the ass. > Elf versioning sucks dead beaver dicks through a straw. > The main problem I've had was when I upgraded from libc5 to libc6 (aka glibc2 - who thought of that!). Problem was that some other shared libraries were also dynamically linked against libc5, so some compiles would be linked against both C libraries, and everything would segfault. Once I realised what was going on, and I rebuilt the errant libraries (mainly image rendering ones) everything was fine. The other problem concerns C++. Every version of the compiler has its own C++ runtime, and if I downloaded anything pre-compiled written in C++ I could guarantee that I'd have to look for the correct C++ libraries. Creating a symlink would sometimes work, but the resulting program would become unstable. Netscape seem to choose to use a different C++ compiler for every release! ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:40:13 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 15 Message-ID: <88kpqg$7an$7@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> <88gfe7$db8$3@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> <38ACC92B.3FFDBF07@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50-kingfisher-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 950921872 7511 194.168.67.50 (19 Feb 2000 00:57:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 00:57:52 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49944 > > > And now I can't even get a simple PC admin job. No one wants to know me, > > sob! > > > That's because *no* one will be able to do business without the "mark of the beast." > So I guess that means M$ certification *is* the "mark of the beast." (If you add > up the ascii values for MCBE (or whatever), will you get 666?) > Arn't the deliminters used on a standard barcode 6 6 and 6, meaning that nothing now can be bought and sold without the mark of the beast (ie 666). ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:42:04 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 16 Message-ID: <88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50-kingfisher-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 950921873 7511 194.168.67.50 (19 Feb 2000 00:57:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 00:57:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49945 > > > >> I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just > >> throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > > > >well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if > >your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would > >see the point about backup devices > > I have my hard drives in removable bays. When I want to backup, > I mount the backup hard drive and I'm off. Great until your bay vendor changes the contact inside the bay but keeps the same external shape! ###### From: "Paul Grayson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:44:34 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 13 Message-ID: <88kpqi$7an$9@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50-kingfisher-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 950921874 7511 194.168.67.50 (19 Feb 2000 00:57:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 00:57:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49947 > > I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. Just > > throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > > well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if > your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would > see the point about backup devices I've had collegues have to deal with severe flooding (ie server under water), and bomb damage due to the IRA. In the latter case the servers (big heavy Banyan machines) were actually holding the building together. ###### From: "John Gilmer" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> <88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:23:59 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Organization: CrossLink Internet Services 1-888-4-CROSSLINK Message-ID: <950931381.368017@pizza.crosslink.net> Cache-Post-Path: pizza.crosslink.net!unknown@dyn31.c5200-2.king-george.246.crosslink.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.124.14 X-Trace: dingus.crosslink.net 950931380 29504 206.246.124.14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.newsfirst.net!dingus.crosslink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50032 Maybe you folks routinely have fires, floods, etc. Maybe you have a virus attack every hour. I don't. The most likely way for me to lose a lot of data quickly is for my disk drive to go south. In practice, this is the most likely cause of massive data loss for most folks. A second hard drive and/or networking to a second computer provides quick and easy coverage for this problem. "Paul Grayson" wrote in message news:88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net... > > > > > >> I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. > Just > > >> throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). > > > > > >well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if > > >your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would > > >see the point about backup devices > > > > I have my hard drives in removable bays. When I want to backup, > > I mount the backup hard drive and I'm off. > > Great until your bay vendor changes the contact inside the bay but keeps the > same external shape! > > ###### From: mattm@infinet.com (Matthew W. Miller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bldp$uh$3@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <88ciam$48g$1@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> <88gfe7$db8$3@nclient13-gui.server.virgin.net> <38ACC92B.3FFDBF07@plano.net> <88kpqg$7an$7@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.6 UNIX) Date: 19 Feb 2000 04:00:25 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38ae1559$0$34451@news.voyager.net> Organization: Voyager.Net - East Lansing, MI NNTP-Posting-Host: 29504968.news.voyager.net X-Trace: 0RW8S?BXNaBI5[332>a9YK9hSN`^GeEcL4P9cX5n4aQG3[DllnL^i5GNhQ;@dlM\bNI5HF@c8]G>HO=TmMK5d:CK X-Complaints-To: abuse@voyager.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.voyager.net!reader2-nwblwi.news.voyager.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49997 On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:40:13 -0000, Paul Grayson wrote: >Arn't the deliminters used on a standard barcode 6 6 and 6, meaning that >nothing now can be bought and sold without the mark of the beast (ie >666). Shouldn't you take that query to alt.folklore.urban, not here? Heh. (In any case, no, they aren't 6, 6, and 6, they're three pairs of thin lines that don't mean anything.) -- Matthew W. Miller -- mattm@infinet.com ###### From: Rocky Raccoon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:04:45 -0800 Organization: Home Lines: 11 Message-ID: <38AE4E9D.C630EA9D@bigfoot.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mpcompserv35.informix.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!news.informix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49955 David Scheidt wrote: > David Scheidt > Stop being Rambo, and start being Ghandi. -- Paul Tomblin ^^^^^^ That's Gandhi. -- regards, Shiva http://www.slack.net/~shiva/ ###### From: john@polo.demon.co.uk (John Winters) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 19 Feb 2000 15:50:15 -0000 Organization: The Linux Emporium Message-ID: <88me3n$id$1@polo.demon.co.uk> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <88hcqo01306@news2.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk:194.70.1.33 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 950976177 nnrp-02:22625 NO-IDENT unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk:194.70.1.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk!polo.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49981 In article , Jack Peacock wrote: [snip] >We never sell a turnkey system without a tape drive sufficient to hold >the entire disk image on backup, and a set of labelled tapes to do day >of the week backups. We have never had a problem with customers losing >files on the systems we provided, though we do get calls when the >homegrown PC network the son-in-law of the owner put together without >any backup at all suddenly loses a drive with everyone's spreadsheets. > Jack Peacock > Jack Peacock Shouldn't that be: Jack Peacock Jack Peacock jAC!A3.A3...OCK for safety? John -- John Winters. Wallingford, Oxon, England. The Linux Emporium - the source for Linux CDs in the UK See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/ ###### From: john@polo.demon.co.uk (John Winters) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 19 Feb 2000 15:51:11 -0000 Organization: The Linux Emporium Message-ID: <88me5f$q1$1@polo.demon.co.uk> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> <88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <950931381.368017@pizza.crosslink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk:194.70.1.33 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 950976178 nnrp-02:22625 NO-IDENT unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk:194.70.1.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk!polo.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49979 In article <950931381.368017@pizza.crosslink.net>, John Gilmer wrote: >Maybe you folks routinely have fires, floods, etc. Maybe you have a virus >attack every hour. I don't. ...yet. -- John Winters. Wallingford, Oxon, England. The Linux Emporium - the source for Linux CDs in the UK See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/ ###### From: Mikael Cardell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 19 Feb 2000 20:04:50 +0100 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 29 Sender: mc@dingo.hack.org Message-ID: <873dqpm2st.fsf@dingo.hack.org> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> Reply-To: NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu235-248.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: hitler.sno.pp.se 950987070 11333 195.163.248.235 (19 Feb 2000 19:04:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@sno.pp.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 19:04:30 GMT X-Waved: Chicken (dead). Curse all those damn UCE bots! X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 19.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-MUC.ecrc.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!snopp!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50006 Michael Finley's article had expired on my News server before I had a chance to reply, so I'm replying to greenaum's article instead. Sorry for mucking with your threading. On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:25:07 GMT, mfinleyOMIT@skypoint.com (Michael Finley) sprachen: >Why do we buy new machines? Because we want, more than anything, a >fresh start. I seldom buy new machines for my personal use. I don't see much point in throwing away an awful amount of money on something that will be made obsolete in six months or less. It's much better to go out and buy something second hand (or have it given to you!) My current home boxen are a Sun SPARCstation 5 that was given to me, an old Sun ELC I bought used about five years ago, a used Intel box I built my ISDN router from and two old Macintoys for the kids (two sons, aged 7 and 5). The only exception to the rule is my IBM ThinkPad 570, which my Emacs (in which I'm writing this) is running on. The ThinkPad isn't mine, however; it was given to me as a work tool. I'm still not used to the fact that this... _toy_ is one of the most powerful computers to have been in my home. -- Mikael "MC" Cardell Temple of the Moby Hack Gnu^H^Hun for hire. E-mail me. ###### From: Graham Hughes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 19 Feb 2000 19:03:18 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 36 Sender: graham@walnut.treepeople.pedantic.org Message-ID: <87k8k0shhl.fsf@walnut.treepeople.pedantic.org> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49971 >>>>> "Peter" == Peter Seebach writes: Peter> Must be one of those weird Linux features. On NetBSD, you Peter> have library version numbers. Thus, I might have Peter> libc.12.0.so libc.12.2.so libc.13.0.so libc.14.0.so Peter> libc.14.1.so Peter> Any program linked with libc 12 will try to link to 12.2.so Peter> - it gets any bugfix changes, but is shielded from any API Peter> changes, because API changes require a new *major* number. Peter> Something I linked when 14.0 was the newest will now link Peter> itself to 14.1. Linux has the same scheme; the trouble is, some people try to make that libfoo.bar.baz correspond to version bar.baz of the foo package. This is wrong and broken and everything that discusses versioning hates it bitterly but it happens all the same. A partial solution has been to name things e.g. /usr/lib/libgtk-1.2.so.0.5.2. Actually, GTK has been quite good about this. I used to have until I cleaned them off a dozen or so of the 1.1 versions, which were very different and yet all coexisted happily. Linux libc used to be good, too; libc major version 5 would coexist with libc major version 6 quite happily. Now, we get into idiocy when you realize that glibc2.1 is IIRC binary incompatible with glibc2 in a number of subtle ways but has the same major version number... Linux people are for whatever reason reluctant to increment major versions of the libc unless there are major changes to go along with it. The two major increments I've seen were libc4 -> libc5 (ELF) and libc5 -> libc6 (thread safety, among other things), and these were both Big Things. -- Graham Hughes (defun memoizef (symbol) (setf (symbol-function symbol) (memoize (symbol-function symbol)))) ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 03:39:35 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 29 Message-ID: <38ae4205.52802477@news.shuswap.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> <88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-38.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 951017832 3384 206.87.124.120 (20 Feb 2000 03:37:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 03:37:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50008 "Paul Grayson" wrote: >> > >> >> I just don't understand folks who spend good money on backup devices. >Just >> >> throw in another disk drive. Most systems can support three (+ CD). >> > >> >well the idea is that the backed up data is AWAY from your computer, if >> >your computer blew up and destroyed ALL the drives in it then you would >> >see the point about backup devices >> >> I have my hard drives in removable bays. When I want to backup, >> I mount the backup hard drive and I'm off. > >Great until your bay vendor changes the contact inside the bay but keeps the >same external shape! Not applicable. I suppose I should have given more detail. The kit I buy has a bay and a container that plugs into the bay. The drive is put inside the container and hooked into stubby cable inside. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 20 Feb 2000 18:43:14 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 45 Message-ID: <6uvh3jixcd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk. net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> <88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.vi rgin.net> <950931381.368017@pizza.crosslink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 951068594 871 10.0.3.2 (20 Feb 2000 17:43:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 17:43:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50111 "John Gilmer" writes: > Maybe you folks routinely have fires, floods, etc. Maybe you have a virus > attack every hour. I don't. Neither have I on my home box (at work we have an backup server (not operated by me) which has some disk/tape combination in it). > The most likely way for me to lose a lot of data quickly is for my disk > drive to go south. > > In practice, this is the most likely cause of massive data loss for most > folks. Unlikely. User error (a.k.a. pilot error) ist definitely data destroyer no 1 - with a very wide margin. Even OS bugs have killed more data for me than hardware faillure. > A second hard drive and/or networking to a second computer provides quick > and easy coverage for this problem. I use a second (old) computer. Jokingly called the "external harddisk". > "Paul Grayson" wrote in message > news:88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net... Gheee. Annother person who does not know how to quote in a compatible way. > > > I have my hard drives in removable bays. When I want to backup, > > > I mount the backup hard drive and I'm off. Same CPU, so the same OS bug may hit, the same power supply faillure, ... -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Wizzard, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Computer: a toy, speeds work so that you have more time to play ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 20 Feb 2000 18:48:54 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6usnynix2x.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nort el.com> <88jt33$alr$1@news.enteract.com> <87k8k0shhl.fsf@walnut.treepeople.pedantic.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 951068934 871 10.0.3.2 (20 Feb 2000 17:48:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 17:48:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50112 Graham Hughes writes: > >>>>> "Peter" == Peter Seebach writes: > > Peter> Must be one of those weird Linux features. On NetBSD, you > Peter> have library version numbers. Thus, I might have > Peter> libc.12.0.so libc.12.2.so libc.13.0.so libc.14.0.so > Peter> libc.14.1.so Exactly identical on Linux. Just different version numbers (presently 6.1). > Now, we get into idiocy when you realize that glibc2.1 is IIRC binary > incompatible with glibc2 in a number of subtle ways Mainly internal (begin with _) functions that some application programmers missused. > but has the same > major version number... Linux people are for whatever reason > reluctant to increment major versions of the libc unless there are > major changes to go along with it. Nothing to do with Linux. That is a GNU decision. 2.0 and 2.1 are GNU Version numbers. The Linuxers simpy renumbered them 6.0 and 6.1 because they had used up until 5.x for their own pre-GNU libs (which were far less featured and so dropped for the GNU ones). Since then we have massive trouble with libs. > The two major increments I've seen > were libc4 -> libc5 (ELF) and libc5 -> libc6 (thread safety, among 5->6 was homegrown to GNU. 6.0->6.1 (GNU 2.0->2.1) was thread safety AFAIK. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Wizzard, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Computer: a toy, speeds work so that you have more time to play ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:17:53 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.140.84 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.140.84 X-Trace: 20 Feb 2000 11:17:54 -0700, 207.148.140.84 Lines: 50 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-feeder.wcg.net!WCG!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.140.84 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50117 On 15 Feb 2000 12:51:41 GMT, mwandel@nortel.ca (Markus Wandel) wrote: >In article <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, >Markus Wandel wrote: >>The cure for your problem is to know how to do a from-scratch reinstall of >>the OS and applications. From my experience, if the OS is... >> >>... >> >>Mac: No matter what you do, you won't get a mess. > >I stand corrected! Everybody says the Mac is just as bad. I guess the >grass is always greener on the other side. All I know is that with _zilch_ >Mac experience I managed to set up a HD for a Mac+ once and that I managed >to do a transplant of an 80MB SCSI HD into a Powerbook 140 where a 40MB was >before, transferring the entire contents over via floppies, without getting >myself into significant trouble. > >I have very little experience with Windows too but I know it's bad because >even with so little experience I've gotten myself into trouble and I've seen >fairly expert users having to reformat and reinstall their entire system >because something got messed up in their registry. Notice I said "fairly" >expert; I'm sure there are people who could fix a Windows registry blindfolded >with a hex editor, but there aren't very many of them. > >Markus Just export the whole registry into a text file, run a few vi commands over it, and import it from source. Found problem shortcuts using (GNU) find, strings and grep to find problem .lnk files, then changed the properties manually. If there had been more shortcut changes required, I would probably have od'ed a few dozen, figured out the format, and written a proggy using ftw() to find and fix the little bugegrs. Found this worked when I made the mistake of purchasing PowerQuest's Drive Copy to "simplify" a drive upgrade. It copied the system over okay, but it or Win95 (not sure which was responsible) changed all the registry entries so they still pointed to the old drive on D:! Duhhh! ObAFC: hairyish but not quite as hairy as reloading a toasted DASD (disk) VTOC (volume table of contents/catalogue/directory) using a card deck. Only knew one guy who had to do that. Think it might have been his own fault for writing to a dataset, manually allocated, starting at track zero! Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: 20 Feb 2000 22:00:04 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: <88po540v4c@news2.newsguy.com> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> <88kpqh$7an$8@nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net> <950931381.368017@pizza.crosslink.net> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-290.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50147 In article <950931381.368017@pizza.crosslink.net>, "John Gilmer" writes: > Maybe you folks routinely have fires, floods, etc. Maybe you have a virus > attack every hour. I don't. With more and more people putting machines on the Internet without firewalls, and using user agents (browsers and email clients) that support "active content" (scripting languages, etc.), typical home PCs are exposed to malicious software much more often than in even the recent past. Many of these people don't have intrusion detection, sufficient content filtering and reporting, etc., and so have no idea what their machines are exposed to. There are documented cases of machines being scanned, fingerprinted, and probed for vulnerabilities in their first hour on-line. Maybe your machine is never connected to any outside source. Great. Maybe your power is always clean, or you have really good surge suppression. Great again. Maybe the chance of a fire or flood is negligible in your threat model. Terrific. Those conditions certainly aren't universal; these days, they're the exception, not the rule. > The most likely way for me to lose a lot of data quickly is for my disk > drive to go south. > > In practice, this is the most likely cause of massive data loss for most > folks. "massive" data loss, perhaps. In my experience, losing even a little interesting data - part of a paper I'm writing, or wrote some time ago, or some source code, or what have you; even an application that I can restore from the installation media, since that takes time - is sufficiently disruptive (not to mention dismaying) to warrant a decent backup strategy. And I *strongly* doubt that hard disk failure is the most common cause of data loss for most people these days. I'd put my money on user error or application bugs for first place, followed by malicious software. But as with any security issue (and this is a security issue, security being the aspect of computing dealing with preserving the integrity of hardware, software, data, and processing), the risk and appropriate response depend on the owner's threat model. In my model, my data are sufficiently important to warrant multiple off-site backups (most of which is now automated - all I have to do is check the periodic reports for failure). My brother's a writer; he takes similar care of his data. Some people don't care that much. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University Pocket #16: A Ventriloquist's "Helper" -- Recordings for Divers Occasions, especially cries to put in the mouths of enemies -- "God Bless Captain Vere!" "Les jeux sont faits!" &c. -- Joe Green ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:03:47 -0600 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38B0F163.A2D174BA@plano.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <887i75$eqn$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <88bi4t$bmt$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQ66!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50120 Brian Inglis wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > ObAFC: hairyish but not quite as hairy as reloading a toasted > DASD (disk) VTOC (volume table of contents/catalogue/directory) > using a card deck. Only knew one guy who had to do that. Think it > might have been his own fault for writing to a dataset, manually > allocated, starting at track zero! > Is this one of the guys who went on to be a chief designer of Windows 98? Except for the cards, this sounds vaguely like some sort of standard procedure for patching Win98. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38bcb99c.3020616@news.freeuk.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <88hcqo01306@news2.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:42:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.145.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 951302578 212.126.145.170 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:42:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:42:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50212 The only thing I have worth keeping is my source code (source code that I have written, not *MY* actual source code). I think I'll get one of them online hard-disk thingies that give you a few MB on a server. I imagine for most people, this is about all they need. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk >> ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38c00996.577477@news.freeuk.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:28:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.146.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 951650928 212.126.146.88 (Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:28:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:28:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50468 Are those cheap bay things you can buy at computer fairs for this purpose, any good? You know the ones I mean? Are they just as reliable etc? I can imagine it would be handy, as well as looking super-skillo. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### From: genew@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why People Buy New Computers Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:02:30 GMT Organization: Okanagan Internet Junction Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38b97fe9.2656102@news.shuswap.net> References: <38a5a564.69569858@news.skypoint.com> <38ad28ea.2945715@news.freeuk.net> <950801589.777031@pizza.crosslink.net> <38aca628.28420329@news.shuswap.net> <38c00996.577477@news.freeuk.net> Reply-To: genew@shuswap.net NNTP-Posting-Host: salmonarm3-04.shuswap.net X-Trace: news.junction.net 951688843 27755 206.87.124.86 (27 Feb 2000 22:00:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@junction.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2000 22:00:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news.junction.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50554 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: >Are those cheap bay things you can buy at computer fairs for this >purpose, any good? You know the ones I mean? Are they just as reliable >etc? I can imagine it would be handy, as well as looking super-skillo. I've found the type I use to be so. That's not just my experience. One of my ex-employers uses them internally and sells them (mainly to business customers). Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.