From: Andrew Cooke Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:29:32 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 64 Message-ID: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.65.113 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jan 30 09:29:32 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: unknown X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x40.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.159.65.113 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDacooke Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!nntp.abs.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48945 Hi, Last night I was picking my way through a book of film reviews. It started me wondering why there isn't anything similar for software. Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly successful applications of a functional language; the construction shows influences from the earlier work in ...". What already exists? There are books that describe algorithms (Knuth, Dijkstra, Sedgwick, Abelson + Sussman) - but these are teaching texts, not summaries (and generally standardise on a single language). The closest I can find is Norvig's book (Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence - Case Studies in Common Lisp), which discusses whole programs. But again, the treatment is in depth. (There are collections of software on the net, but they are like my local video store - once I know what code I want, I can go there.) What would you do with such a text? We use film reviews to decide what films to video over the week and watch at the weekend (last night: Steve McQueen in Bullit - excellent). In contrast, there's no regular broadcast of software. So what about open source code? Am I alone in sometimes looking at code out of curiousity? Does anyone else look at source for pleasure? I'm writing Lisp code for genetic evolution - I would love to read the source of similar code, especially if it had been selected for being particularly clear, elegant, or useful. It might even save me writing new code. Note that the language is not that important. I would learn from examples in any functional language (even procedural examples could be useful). But that's not all. I read the film reviews for pleasure. Wouldn't the same be true for software reviews? Would we end up with source considered "required reading" - the Citizen Kanes of software engineering? How can this be done? Maybe something like this already exists? Maybe this post will persuade some gifted person to do this? Or perhaps the best approach is a collaborative project on the net (after all, there's also an internet movie database)? Andrew http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/index.html PS. If you think this is a good idea - please spread the word. Feel free to redistribute, copy, submit and otherwise propogate this post (there's no copyright restriction, no need to include my name or URL, etc etc :-). Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Ben Pfaff Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: 30 Jan 2000 11:08:48 -0500 Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 7 Sender: blp@pfaffben.user.msu.edu Message-ID: <87k8krtucv.fsf@pfaffben.user.msu.edu> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: pfaffben@msu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: pfaffben.user.msu.edu X-AUTHid: pfaff X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!msunews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49264 Andrew Cooke writes: > Last night I was picking my way through a book of film reviews. It > started me wondering why there isn't anything similar for software. John Lions, _Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th Edition with Source Code_ ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 949260601 207.91.187.171 (Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:30:01 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:30:01 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:30:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49209 In alt.folklore.computers Kaz Kylheku wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:29:32 GMT, Andrew Cooke > wrote: >>Last night I was picking my way through a book of film reviews. It >>started me wondering why there isn't anything similar for software. > There is. I sometimes say to my coworkers that I don't so much enjoy > using programs as reading them. ;) It depends on the source. I've seen some truely lovely source. On the other hand, after 3 days, I only have vague clues of how the program I'm currently maintaining works. And that's through watching the stack and doing traces. (So far, I've managed to triple the throughput by optimizing some SQL. I think that I can quadruple that with some other minor changes.) -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: 30 Jan 2000 19:56:14 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 18 Message-ID: <87250u$990$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 949262174 9504 134.117.136.30 (30 Jan 2000 19:56:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2000 19:56:14 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49077 Mike Swaim (swaim@swaim-03.nol.net) writes: > > It depends on the source. I've seen some truely lovely source. On the > other hand, after 3 days, I only have vague clues of how the program I'm > currently maintaining works. And that's through watching the stack and > doing traces. > (So far, I've managed to triple the throughput by optimizing some SQL. > I think that I can quadruple that with some other minor changes.) As G. Weinberg once wrote, in either the Psych. of Comp. Prog. or PL/I A Manual of Style: 90% of optimization is done at design time. And as I have repeated said since the early 70's: The most powerful statement in is the comment. (Provided the writer is somewhat literate, of course.) ###### From: KSG Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:51:51 -0800 Organization: High Performance Lines: 49 Message-ID: <3894C087.A3C1893E@cs.ucsd.edu> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news1.ucsd.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ihnp4.ucsd.edu 949272850 25422 132.239.1.221 (30 Jan 2000 22:54:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: Abuse@UCSD.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2000 22:54:10 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!blackbush.xlink.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48932 Andrew Cooke wrote: > > So what about open source code? Am I alone in sometimes looking at > code out of curiousity? Does anyone else look at source for pleasure? > I'm writing Lisp code for genetic evolution - I would love to read the > source of similar code, especially if it had been selected for being > particularly clear, elegant, or useful. It might even save me writing > new code. > > Note that the language is not that important. I would learn from > examples in any functional language (even procedural examples could be > useful). > > But that's not all. I read the film reviews for pleasure. Wouldn't > the same be true for software reviews? Would we end up with source > considered "required reading" - the Citizen Kanes of software > engineering? > > How can this be done? > > Maybe something like this already exists? Maybe this post will > persuade some gifted person to do this? Or perhaps the best approach > is a collaborative project on the net (after all, there's also an > internet movie database)? Well unlike books and movies, most code isn't meant for human consumption. The end product of code (the executable) is what is meant for human consumption and this is what is reviewed. This is similar to screenplays/movies. Most people don't review screenplays, just the movie. With that said there is a movement that is pushing an idea that is similar to what you seem to propose (their intention maybe different as I'm not really sure precisely what their intention is). This movement is called literate programming. There is a quite a bit written about it. A simple web search should return hundreds of hits. Lastly, I also love looking at implementation details and such, but I usually find that most good computer scientists can summarize their algorithm plus cool implementation details in a paper outside of their actual implementation. These papers usually can convey all the information that I would care about. KSG ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <87250u$990$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 949293772 207.91.187.171 (Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:42:52 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:42:52 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:42:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49220 Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > Mike Swaim (swaim@swaim-03.nol.net) writes: >> >> It depends on the source. I've seen some truely lovely source. On the >> other hand, after 3 days, I only have vague clues of how the program I'm >> currently maintaining works. And that's through watching the stack and >> doing traces. >> (So far, I've managed to triple the throughput by optimizing some SQL. >> I think that I can quadruple that with some other minor changes.) > As G. Weinberg once wrote, in either the Psych. of Comp. Prog. or > PL/I A Manual of Style: > > 90% of optimization is done at design time. This code is AMAZINGLY unoptimized. It pulls full tables into memory, and then filters the in memory tables to get a particular row. (And it's not caching the tables, either. It reloads them every time it needs a value.) It has to have the image on the local filesystem to query the fax machine on the status of a fax. The program won't try to resend it, it just wants the file in order to feel good. It also cleans up temp files on a weekly basis, so if you send out 1,000 faxes in one day, that's 1000 temp files. I could go on, but you get the picture. > The most powerful statement in is the > comment. (Provided the writer is somewhat literate, of course.) There are comments at the top of some of the modules. None from the original author in the code, as far as I can tell. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing From: Anders Thulin Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: murphy.malmo.trab.se Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <389540D8.59A01CC2@telia.se> Sender: news@malmo.trab.se Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Organization: Telia Prosoft X-Accept-Language: en References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:59:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) Lines: 83 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!malmo.trab.se!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49323 Andrew Cooke wrote: > = > Hi, > = > Last night I was picking my way through a book of film reviews. It > started me wondering why there isn't anything similar for software. Film reviews would be more close to application reviews than actual sou= rce code -- although those 'behind the scenes' or 'making of ...' snippets may be 'source code' of sorts. > Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's > elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new > technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly > successful applications of a functional language; the construction > shows influences from the earlier work in ...". > = > What already exists? Lions' commentary on the Unix source code. = Knuth's TeX and MetaFONT books. This is not quite source code, so if you have purist tendencies, you may want to stay away. Knuth's Web system for literate programming used for TeX and MetaFONT spawned = similar activities: I don't recall if it was Jon Bentley's Programming Pearls column in CACM, or in the immediately following column by ... (I forget) that showed how various luminaries wrote code to be read, rather than compiled. = Pemberton & Davies: Pascal Implementation: Book I: The P4 Compiler. I haven't seen this myself, so I can't swear to it. I'm fairly certain there is another Pascal compiler source book as well, but I'm hanged if I can find the reference to it. It was about an ISO Pascal reference implementation, I think, and probably published in the UK. Kernighan & Plauger: Elements of Programming Style. This is not complete films, but rather collected cameo pieces, if you catch my drift. Grau, Hill & Langmaak: Translation of Algol 60 (Springer Verlag, 1967). The language used is, appropriately enough, Algol 60: = the publication Algol that allowed typographical niceties to be used, such as the subscripted '10' to indicate exponents in floating poiny numbers. How about Jolitz & Jolitz: Basic Kernel Source Code Secrets? It's been a couple of years since I 'read' it, but if I recall it was something on the lines of Lions. I see that several other volumes in this series (called Source Code Secrets) have appeared -- anyone care to comment on them? (Incidentally, the company that published this title, also publishes Lions' commentary mentioned above ... see http://www.peer-to-peer.com/catalog/opsrc.html) Andrew Tanenbaum's MINIX book might qualify as well. I recall Algol 60 Implementation by Randell and Russel (Academic Press, 1964). Not source code, but more pseudo code snippets. I found it very useful at the time I read it, but then I was heavily into compilers then. > Maybe something like this already exists? Try comp.programming.literate for something like it. (Warning: it's a long time since I read that group, so I don't know if it is still functional.) If not, look for 'literate programming' on the WEB. You'll probably fi= nd more tools for it than finished code, though. -- = Anders Thulin Anders.X.Thulin@telia.se 040-10 50 63 Telia Prosoft AB, Hj=E4lmaregatan 3B, 212 19 Malm=F6, Sweden ###### From: Andrew Cooke Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:26:43 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <873gvv$4pd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3894C087.A3C1893E@cs.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.245.145 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 31 08:26:43 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: unknown X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x23.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 194.168.245.145 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDacooke Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48980 In article <3894C087.A3C1893E@cs.ucsd.edu>, KSG wrote: > Well unlike books and movies, most code isn't meant for human > consumption. The end product of code (the executable) is what is meant > for human consumption and this is what is reviewed. This is similar to > screenplays/movies. Most people don't review screenplays, just the movie. Maybe I pushed the film analogy too far - source code is a much more complete description than a screenplay, but it is also much more difficult to infer. In other words, despite the importance of source code, I cannot work out what it is like from looking at the finished article. If this were true of screenplays and films, then screenplays might be more popular too. > With that said there is a movement that is pushing an idea that is similar > to what you seem to propose (their intention maybe different as I'm not > really sure precisely what their intention is). This movement is called > literate programming. There is a quite a bit written about it. A simple > web search should return hundreds of hits. I should have mentioned literate programming in my original post (I though about it just as I pressed "Send" :-). In the language of films, literate programming produces an anotated screenplay, not a review Whether or not the anotation is necessary or useful is something that a review might mention. Wouldn't a review like "At last, an example that truly demonstrates the worth of literate programming" interest you? It would me (and yes, I have seen Knuth's Tex stuff)... > Lastly, I also love looking at implementation details and such, but I > usually find that most good computer scientists can summarize their > algorithm plus cool implementation details in a paper outside of their > actual implementation. These papers usually can convey all the > information that I would care about. This is an interesting point. Maybe I just want a good collection of these papers. But this does restrict the examples to academic work, and reviews would still be useful to collect more examples in one place, rate them, and set them in historical context. Cheers, Andrew PS No-one has yet suggested a Citizen Kane of source... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Axel Schairer Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 31 Jan 2000 12:10:15 +0000 Organization: Dept of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University, Scotland Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: skiach.dai.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: scotsman.ed.ac.uk 949320615 24332 129.215.45.141 (31 Jan 2000 12:10:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@scotsman.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2000 12:10:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49214 Andrew Cooke writes: > What already exists? Not really what you are looking for I suppose, but there you go: @Book{forbus93:problem-solvers, author = {Kenneth D. Forbus and Johan de Kleer}, title = {Building Problem Solvers}, publisher = {The MIT Press}, year = 1993, address = {Cambridge, Massachusetts} } which comes with a companion volume containing the printed source code the main book develops and discusses. Cheers, Axel ###### Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing From: Anders Thulin Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: murphy.malmo.trab.se Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <389583A9.A1DF916@telia.se> Sender: news@malmo.trab.se Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Organization: Telia Prosoft X-Accept-Language: en References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3894C087.A3C1893E@cs.ucsd.edu> <873gvv$4pd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:44:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!fu-berlin.de!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!malmo.trab.se!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49316 Andrew Cooke wrote: > difficult to infer. In other words, despite the importance of source > code, I cannot work out what it is like from looking at the finished > article. = Someone -- I forget who -- observed that code was not really that interesting: Give me code, and I probably won't understand what you're doing. Give me the data structures that code operates on, and I won't need the code. I recall one book written on that premise ... I think it was titled Data Structures of an Optimizing Compiler, by .... Jin? It did a lot to convince me that data structures do more to help comprehension that code generally does. > This is an interesting point. Maybe I just want a good collection of > these papers. Tried Jon Bentley's Programming Pearls and More Programming Pearls : Confessions of a Coder? If not, do. The first title appeared in its second edition last year. = -- = Anders Thulin Anders.X.Thulin@telia.se 040-10 50 63 Telia Prosoft AB, Hj=E4lmaregatan 3B, 212 19 Malm=F6, Sweden ###### From: Andrew Cooke Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:33:55 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <874h23$r9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.245.9 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 31 17:33:55 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: unknown X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x36.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 194.168.245.9 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDacooke Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48949 Thanks for the replies. Many people have suggested books that include code - what I am looking for is more like the posts here than the books themselves. Imagine these posts collected at a central resource. Then imagine that not just these books, but other public source is also covered, with comments that rate, summarize and place into historical context each entry.... It could be cross-referenced by subject, date, language, approach, data structures... You could look for Simula code - maybe read a few reviews to pick something interesting but simple - and see what influenced C++. Or maybe you'd like to use a certain style in a new language and want a good example. Or see how Lisp has progressed over the years, comparing dynamic and lexical scoping. Andrew http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/index.html PS Thanks for the pointers to books - I'll try to check them out. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Hugo van der Sanden Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:31:11 +0000 Organization: None Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3895D4EF.44EFE63@crypt0.demon.co.uk> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <874h23$r9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crypt.compulink.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-16 i686) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!diablo.theplanet.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.cix.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49093 Andrew Cooke wrote: > Thanks for the replies. Many people have suggested books that include > code - what I am looking for is more like the posts here than the > books themselves. The source for the TCL interpreter, as it was when I first looked at it (around v7.3), is still the clearest example of source code I have seen. I don't know whether it has retained that clarity through subsequent releases - I suspect not, since at least some of that clarity was achieved at a significant cost to performance. Hugo ###### From: gnohmon8715@my-deja.com Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:34:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <874o4g$u8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 169.71.1.247 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 31 19:34:40 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Lynx/2.7.1 libwww-FM/2.14 X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x36.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 169.71.1.247 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDgnohmon8715 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48936 I have read two pieces of code that struck me as aesthetically beautiful, something above and beyond the mere functional. Oddly enough, both were self-modifying code. One was a fast-unsqueeze routine in z80 assembler, which made 256 copies of a short section of code and then copied the bits from the huffman dictionary into this structure; then looped branching on it for each byte of input. Bizarre, elegant, small, fast, and correct. The second was a Cobol implementation of the classical "read numeric values in any format" function. I had previously seen it done in Fortran, with scads of ugly multi-line computed gotos. Instead, the cobol version (with comments in Danish) had one discreet little goto at the end of each paragraph -- but when there was a major state change it was "alter this to that and thus to there and another to somewhere" -- the much-maligned alter statement being used to create code of great beauty! These were short subroutines. I have never run into a piece of code that read like a novel -- no matter how it manipulated characters. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:46:47 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3895BC77.D33E0D4@trailing-edge.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 949355208 6326 63.73.218.130 (31 Jan 2000 21:46:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:46:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49066 In article <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Andrew Cooke wrote: >Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's >elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new >technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly >successful applications of a functional language; the construction >shows influences from the earlier work in ...". Your example comments above are positive praise; unfortunately, by the time I see code it is usually pointing the other way. Specifically, I often inherit code from previous projects, code that has been running in-production machinery for the past three decades, where the previous maintainer had inherited the code as well, and I get to see editorial comments like this from him: ; % DESCRIPTION: ; % ------------ ; % THIS ANCIENT, WELL MEANING, BUT ILL ADVISED SET OF ; % ROUTINES WAS INTENDED TO SUPPLIMENT TTY INPUT AND OUTPUT. ; % GENERALLY, IT ADDS UNNECESSARY COMPLICATION TO A SYSTEM ; % THAT IS ALREADY TOO COMPLICATED FOR ITS OWN GOOD. or ; % YET ANOTHER BIT OF MISGUIDED PFIZER SOFTWARE. THIS ; % SUPPOSIDLY SETS UP EMERGENCY STOP AND IO TRAP HANDLERS. Bonus points for programmers out there who 1) Recognize the source code language (5 points) and/or 2) Who have been one of the many programmers who actually had to deal with this particular mess (100 points) Extra 200 bonus points to those who collected points on (2) and haven't left the computer field to go into subsistence farming. Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:47:42 GMT Organization: Easynet Group plc Lines: 24 Message-ID: <874skl$mgs$1@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3894C087.A3C1893E@cs.ucsd.edu> <873gvv$4pd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <389583A9.A1DF916@telia.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 949351893 23068 194.154.98.206 (31 Jan 2000 20:51:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jan 2000 20:51:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!newspeer.ebone.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49244 In article <389583A9.A1DF916@telia.se>, Anders Thulin wrote: > > >Andrew Cooke wrote: > >> difficult to infer. In other words, despite the importance of source >> code, I cannot work out what it is like from looking at the finished >> article. = > > > Someone -- I forget who -- observed that code was not really that >interesting: Give me code, and I probably won't understand what you're >doing. Give me the data structures that code operates on, and I won't >need the code. I think this is Brook, in the Mythical Man Month. I'm sure I came across it only a couple of days ago, but I just lent the book to a colleague so I can't confirm! -- barnacle http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk ###### Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: Plethora . Net - More Net, Less Spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:56:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plethora.net X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 949352212 205.166.146.8 (Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:56:52 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:56:52 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49049 In article <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Andrew Cooke wrote: >Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's >elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new >technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly >successful applications of a functional language; the construction >shows influences from the earlier work in ...". Heh. I was once going to write a management textbook titled "Superlatives Through Excessive Qualification". My goal was to get the following quotes for the back jacket. (Never got started.) "Probably the best book of this title ever written." - William F. Buckley, Jr. "The finest management handbook this author has written to date." - The New York Post "I didn't really get it." - MAD Magazine -s -- Copyright 2000, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/ Get paid to surf! No spam. http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GZX636 ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 1 Feb 2000 02:26:20 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: <875g8c02ucu@news2.newsguy.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <874h23$r9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-499.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49052 [Followups set to alt.folklore.computers, which is somewhat appropriate, and more importantly is the only group in the list I actively read. Ah, poster followup fiat.] In article <874h23$r9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Andrew Cooke writes: > > Thanks for the replies. Many people have suggested books that include > code - what I am looking for is more like the posts here than the > books themselves. Imagine these posts collected at a central > resource. Then imagine that not just these books, but other public > source is also covered, with comments that rate, summarize and place > into historical context each entry.... Well, you could try newgrouping "alt.reviews.source-code" (something like "alt.best-of.source-code" might describe your goal better, but as one poster has already pointed out, there's a need to comment on *poor* source as well...). I suspect the problem is mostly one of vehicle and audience; there isn't a mechanism for collecting such reviews already, or if there is it's not well-known. If you started the ball rolling, you might well get submissions at a reasonable rate. Usenet is a good technology for this, since it's widely used already, accessible to a large population of potential contributors, and automatically archived (thanks to Deja). It'll take a while to build a critical mass, though. Don't expect to see a lot of traffic right off the bat. Once people are aware of the newsgroup (or whatever the medium is), when they run across or recall an interesting specimine, they'll be tempted to document it. That won't happen overnight, of course. > It could be cross-referenced by subject, date, language, approach, > data structures... You could look for Simula code - maybe read a few > reviews to pick something interesting but simple - and see what > influenced C++. Or maybe you'd like to use a certain style in a new > language and want a good example. Or see how Lisp has progressed over > the years, comparing dynamic and lexical scoping. You're solving the wrong problem. Make a Usenet collection point for the kind of text you want. Seed it with a couple contributions of your own. Some people will see the new group and decide to take a look; a few will probably contribute as well, over a little while. Deja will keep a full-text index for you. If you like, archive it yourself as well and you can eventually do real indexing and cross- referencing, but that's an issue for the future. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University The surface of the word "profession" is hard and rough, the inside mixed with poison. It's this that prevents me crossing over. And what is there on the other side? Only what people longingly refer to as "the other side". -- Tawada Yoko (trans. Margaret Mitsutani) ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <389540D8.59A01CC2@telia.se> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:39:21 -0800 Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 31 Jan 2000 22:26:24 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49236 Anders Thulin writes: > Pemberton & Davies: Pascal Implementation: Book I: The P4 Compiler. > I haven't seen this myself, so I can't swear to it. I'm fairly > certain there is another Pascal compiler source book as well, but I'm > hanged if I can find the reference to it. It was about an ISO Pascal > reference implementation, I think, and probably published in the UK. _A Model Implementation of Standard Pascal_ by Jim Welsh. I used to have a copy, but it's gone missing. ###### From: pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: 2 Feb 2000 02:04:15 -0000 Organization: dragon cluster Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8783av$pec$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <874h23$r9u$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <875g8c02ucu@news2.newsguy.com> Reply-To: pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rrw1000.sel.cam.ac.uk X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: root@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk ([127.0.0.1]) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49221 Michael Wojcik wrote: >Andrew Cooke writes: >> Thanks for the replies. Many people have suggested books that include >> code - what I am looking for is more like the posts here than the >> books themselves. >Well, you could try newgrouping "alt.reviews.source-code" (something >like "alt.best-of.source-code" might describe your goal better, but >as one poster has already pointed out, there's a need to comment on >*poor* source as well...). Sounds good to me. I'll happily write a review slating the source code of this newsreader, for a start :-> [those with iron constitutions and a copy of the trn source code should check makedir() in util.c ...] I'd also nominate the PERQ's rasterop microcode for a 'very cool' award, and some of GNU libc's highly-optimised asm routines are quite neat. Peter Maydell ###### From: jmfbah@aol.com (JMFBAH) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Feb 2000 13:55:15 GMT References: <3895BC77.D33E0D4@trailing-edge.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000202085515.27230.00000875@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49111 Tim Shoppa said this but I'm too lazy to do the necessary editing for a properly formatted reply: >Extra 200 bonus points to those who collected points on (2) and >haven't left the computer field to go into subsistence farming. TW used to talk about becoming an encyclopedia salesman when wrassling with hardware engineers. Pfizer sounds terribly familiar. /BAH ###### From: Roman Belenov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: 08 Feb 2000 09:32:35 +0300 Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3894C087.A3C1893E@cs.ucsd.edu> <873gvv$4pd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <389583A9.A1DF916@telia.se> <874skl$mgs$1@quince.news.easynet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: postnews.dejanews.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "alt.folklore.computers@list.deja.com" In-Reply-To: "barnacle"'s message of "Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:47:42 GMT" User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 X-DejaID: _ILxQbhoVDN0BYp3nLNZbbA= Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49412 "barnacle" writes: It is in fact F.Brooks, "Mythical Man Month", end of chapter 9. > > Someone -- I forget who -- observed that code was not really that > >interesting: Give me code, and I probably won't understand what you're > >doing. Give me the data structures that code operates on, and I won't > >need the code. > > I think this is Brook, in the Mythical Man Month. I'm sure I came across it > only a couple of days ago, but I just lent the book to a colleague so I can't > confirm! -- With regards, Roman. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: ralph@inputplus.demon.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy) Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: 17 Feb 2000 19:02:58 -0000 Organization: InputPlus Ltd. Message-ID: <88hgl2$gtt$1@inputplus.demon.co.uk> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <389540D8.59A01CC2@telia.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: inputplus.demon.co.uk:194.222.72.27 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 950985511 nnrp-13:14816 NO-IDENT inputplus.demon.co.uk:194.222.72.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!inputplus.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:50069 > Kernighan & Plauger: Elements of Programming Style. This is not > complete films, but rather collected cameo pieces, if you catch my > drift. Yep, that's excellent. A `must read'. From a Literate Programming viewpoint there's also C Interfaces and Implementations. David R. Hanson. Addison Wesley. ISBN 0-201-49841-3. and A Retargetable C Compiler: Design and Implementation. Christopher Fraser, David Hanson. Benjamin/Cummings. ISBN 0-8053-1670-1. I'll leave the likes of Amazon to provide the precis. Ralph. ###### From: "Marc Walters" Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:12:11 +1000 Organization: Classworks Lines: 73 Message-ID: <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ghostgum.hunterlink.net.au X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 954468783 22505 203.12.144.16 (31 Mar 2000 02:13:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 02:13:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: as2-p73.ncle.hunterlink.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.hunterlink.net.au!as2-p73.ncle.hunterlink.net.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53500 Andrew Cooke wrote (way back in January) in message <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >Hi, > >Last night I was picking my way through a book of film reviews. It >started me wondering why there isn't anything similar for software. > >Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's >elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new >technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly >successful applications of a functional language; the construction >shows influences from the earlier work in ...". > >What already exists? > [SNIP] One good source of code snippets WAS Australian Personal Computer Magazine. It provided a column back in the 1980's specifically for reader's code submissions. Readers sent in interesting code they'd written in any language, for any computer system. A lot of the code was quite good, memorable in fact. Along the lines of: "We received from Joe Bloggs the following 6502 routine that improves on the existing (buggy) OS screen output code. Patch it in through the keyboard vector at $0FFE/FF. LDA <#$20 ; Char STA $0400 ; Blah RTS ; Return to OS " >But that's not all. I read the film reviews for pleasure. Wouldn't >the same be true for software reviews? Would we end up with source >considered "required reading" - the Citizen Kanes of software >engineering? One of my favourite books was a Commodore 64 BASIC/KERNAL ROM disassembly, "The Commodore 64 Whole Memory Guide" by Tim Arnot, from Melbourne House, around 1985. Standard MOS 6502 machine code disassembly in the page left column, verbose commentary on right column. Extremely readable and enjoyable. And the skill of the programmers (some from Microsoft!) - to shoehorn all that functionality into 16Kb, even with all those cool byte-saving tricks - was impressive. I still remember some of the better routines, such as the string handlers and math functions. This book showcased fine 6502 machine code in the same way good accoustics and comfortable seating make a musical concert more enjoyable. Five Stars. > >How can this be done? > >Maybe something like this already exists? Maybe this post will >persuade some gifted person to do this? Or perhaps the best approach >is a collaborative project on the net (after all, there's also an >internet movie database)? > >Andrew >http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/index.html Marc mwalters@hunter.apana.org.au ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:01:39 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <1p3bes4hhd53sdkn3v1vmp0ok820p1cknf@4ax.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.139.185 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.139.185 X-Trace: 1 Apr 2000 14:02:06 -0700, 207.148.139.185 Lines: 80 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.idt.net!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.139.185 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53586 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:12:11 +1000, "Marc Walters" wrote: > >Andrew Cooke wrote (way back in January) in message ><87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >> >>Hi, >> >>Last night I was picking my way through a book of film reviews. It >>started me wondering why there isn't anything similar for software. >> >>Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's >>elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new >>technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly >>successful applications of a functional language; the construction >>shows influences from the earlier work in ...". >> >>What already exists? >> > >[SNIP] > >One good source of code snippets WAS Australian Personal Computer >Magazine. It provided a column back in the 1980's specifically for >reader's code submissions. Readers sent in interesting code they'd >written in any language, for any computer system. A lot of the code was >quite good, memorable in fact. > >Along the lines of: >"We received from Joe Bloggs the following 6502 routine that improves on >the existing (buggy) OS screen output code. Patch it in through the >keyboard vector at $0FFE/FF. >LDA <#$20 ; Char >STA $0400 ; Blah >RTS ; Return to OS " > >>But that's not all. I read the film reviews for pleasure. Wouldn't >>the same be true for software reviews? Would we end up with source >>considered "required reading" - the Citizen Kanes of software >>engineering? > > >One of my favourite books was a Commodore 64 BASIC/KERNAL ROM >disassembly, "The Commodore 64 Whole Memory Guide" by Tim Arnot, from >Melbourne House, around 1985. Standard MOS 6502 >machine code disassembly in the page left column, verbose commentary on >right column. Extremely readable and enjoyable. And the skill of the >programmers (some from Microsoft!) - to shoehorn all that functionality >into 16Kb, even with all those cool byte-saving tricks - was impressive. >I still remember some of the better routines, such as the string >handlers and math functions. > >This book showcased fine 6502 machine code in the same way good >accoustics and comfortable seating make a musical concert more >enjoyable. Five Stars. > >> >>How can this be done? >> >>Maybe something like this already exists? Maybe this post will >>persuade some gifted person to do this? Or perhaps the best approach >>is a collaborative project on the net (after all, there's also an >>internet movie database)? >> >>Andrew >>http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/index.html > > >Marc >mwalters@hunter.apana.org.au Peer-to-Peer Communications came out with a reprint of "Lions' Commentary on UNIX(tm) 6th Edition with Source Code" by John Lions. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian_Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) use address above to reply ###### From: alfred_einstead@my-deja.com Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:26:11 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 75 Message-ID: <8cad5v$5ht$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.12.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Apr 03 15:26:11 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 95) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 PROXY, 1.0 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.67.12.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDalfred_einstead Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53622 From Andrew Cooke: >Imagine a book you could thumb through, reading comments like "it's >elegant OO design and consequent success helped to establish this new >technique within the community.." or "one of the first truly >successful applications of a functional language; the construction >shows influences from the earlier work in ...". "Marc Walters" wrote: > One good source of code snippets WAS Australian Personal Computer > Magazine... > Along the lines of: > "We received from Joe Bloggs the following 6502 routine that improves on... Therein lies the key problem. These examples are all single-threaded applications, which would be analogous to a guitar solo or a film with only one actor spending the entire time doing a monologue. To get to the epic movie or symphony level, you need applications which are heavily multithreaded, with synchronizations and coordinations going on all over the place, a hundred more or less independent programs running in parallel or in pseudo-parallel on a multitasking architecture. Preferrably, the kernel, itself, should be part of the program. Since the kernel's the conductor and the conductor is not an obstrusive over-visible part of the symphony, that means that it shouldn't be much more than (oh.... say) 100 lines of code or so. So, basically we're talking about a real-time embedded system with an embedded RTOS kernel, running a large and complex system consisting of upwards of a hundred parts, each operating on its own programming -- all with elegantly written, concise open source code. To get the true feel of the metal, the source should also be written in machine language (or maybe assembly, but that's kinda cheating), with the binary formatted using the same high-level conventions observed in structured languages like Pascal or C. For instance, a program segment in machine language might look like this: db 90h,0ffh,0efh, 0e0h, 0f5h, 36h db 90h, 02h, 3ah, 75h,0a0h,0dbh, 78h, 00h db 0e8h, 93h, 0f2h db 0d8h,0fbh db 75h, 35h, 00h, 0d2h, 00h db 0e5h, 35h, 54h, 03h, 70h, 0bh db 10h, 04h, 02h, 80h, 06h db 78h, 77h, 11h,0b1h db 80h, 09h db 10h, 05h, 02h, 80h, 04h db 78h, 77h, 11h,0b1h db 85h, 36h, 37h db 22h which is clearly a loop followed by a if-then-else statement, capped off in a brilliant fashion by a return statement. (And, of course, it should be obvious which processor this is meant for since there is really only one CPU in commonn use which uses the hexadecimal value 22 for a return statement). Of course, the analogy here would actually be that this is the musical score for one of the hundred or so instruments (I think this is the binary for the "color sequencer" in the application it was drawn from), and in order to get the true feel you have to play it and all the other scores out on a machine. Of course, the analogy isn't complete: an orchestra interprets a musical score and different orchestras will be better or worse depending on how well they play and how well they play together. A machine, on the other hand, is supposed to do the very same thing with the code above (albeit possibly at different speeds). So reading it should actually be good enough to get the full experience, in constrast to reading a musical score. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:15:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.146.75 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 954940523 212.126.146.75 (Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:15:23 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:15:23 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53688 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:12:11 +1000, "Marc Walters" sprachen: >right column. Extremely readable and enjoyable. And the skill of the >programmers (some from Microsoft!) - to shoehorn all that functionality >into 16Kb, even with all those cool byte-saving tricks - was impressive. Yeah, and missing out any graphics or sound functions, that was a stroke of genius. The ZX80 had a better ROM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to" - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk Call me morbid, call me pale - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### From: "John Duncan" Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:59:07 -0400 Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ehdup-a3-16.rmt.net.pitt.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!pitt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53738 Um... Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any sound when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much different? -John wrote in message news:38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net... > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:12:11 +1000, "Marc Walters" > sprachen: > > >right column. Extremely readable and enjoyable. And the skill of the > >programmers (some from Microsoft!) - to shoehorn all that functionality > >into 16Kb, even with all those cool byte-saving tricks - was impressive. > > Yeah, and missing out any graphics or sound functions, that was a > stroke of genius. The ZX80 had a better ROM. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in > life you'd like to" > > - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk > > Call me morbid, call me pale > > - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg ###### From: christian@yokoda.com (chris davies) Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:22:26 +0100 Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.tw2.com (62.232.8.252) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 955012961 6823752 62.232.8.252 (16 1870) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mail.tw2.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53727 In article <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, "John Duncan" wrote: > Um... > > Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any sound > when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much different? > > -John i had/have a ZX-80 and its not exactly multimedia. unless u mean the graphical thrill of cheese nibbler > wrote in message > news:38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net... > > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:12:11 +1000, "Marc Walters" > > sprachen: > > > > >right column. Extremely readable and enjoyable. And the skill of the > > >programmers (some from Microsoft!) - to shoehorn all that functionality > > >into 16Kb, even with all those cool byte-saving tricks - was impressive. > > > > Yeah, and missing out any graphics or sound functions, that was a > > stroke of genius. The ZX80 had a better ROM. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > "Shyness is nice, and shyness can stop you from doing all the things in > > life you'd like to" > > > > - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk > > > > Call me morbid, call me pale > > > > - http://www.sam-x.freeuk.com/chest1.jpg -- Chris Davies http://www.trash80.org.uk/ ###### Sender: Ian Stirling From: Ian Stirling Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Organization: None.. User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.13 (i586)) Lines: 25 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:00:04 EDT Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:00:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-west.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53717 John Duncan wrote: >Um... >Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any sound >when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much different? Looking over at my ZX81 carcass, I can confirm that the video modulator has no sound input. It can of course make noise through the cassette port, if hooked up to anything. You may also get a buzzing, if you turn on and off "fast" mode fast enough. The spectrum was the first machine in that line, to have audio out on the TV port. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "An enemy will usually have three courses open to him. Of these he will select the fourth." -- Helmuth von Moltke ###### From: "Steve Pritchard" Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:09:12 +0100 Organization: Spellbinder Games Message-ID: <955094646.25276.0.nnrp-02.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Reply-To: "Steve Pritchard" NNTP-Posting-Host: spelbind.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: spelbind.demon.co.uk:158.152.149.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 955094646 nnrp-02:25276 NO-IDENT spelbind.demon.co.uk:158.152.149.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!spelbind.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53779 John Duncan wrote in message news:8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu... > Um... > > Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any sound > when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much different? Yes. The ZX80 certainly never had 16k of RAM either. ###### From: "Simo Tuominen" Newsgroups: comp.programming,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:00:09 +0300 Organization: Freenet Finland Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8ck84o$d302$1@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: aqua00.edu2.evitech.fi X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.defero.net!news.bbnetworks.net!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53772 (Newsgroups trimmed) wrote in message news:38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net... > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:12:11 +1000, "Marc Walters" > sprachen: > > >right column. Extremely readable and enjoyable. And the skill of the > >programmers (some from Microsoft!) - to shoehorn all that functionality > >into 16Kb, even with all those cool byte-saving tricks - was impressive. > > Yeah, and missing out any graphics or sound functions, that was a > stroke of genius. The ZX80 had a better ROM. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Spectra? ###### From: Will Salt Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 07 Apr 2000 09:45:32 +0100 Organization: Pretty disorganised Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <955094646.25276.0.nnrp-02.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-108-194.btinternet.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!candle.btinternet.com!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53810 "Steve Pritchard" writes: > John Duncan wrote in message > news:8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu... > > Um... > > > > Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any > sound > > when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much > different? > > Yes. The ZX80 certainly never had 16k of RAM either. > IIRC, the ZX80 was integer-arithmetic only, but the 81's BASIC had various floating-point functions. -- Will Salt ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: 7 Apr 2000 19:58:00 GMT Organization: None.. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8clek8$ics$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <955094646.25276.0.nnrp-02.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-62-55.btinternet.com User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.13 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53809 Steve Pritchard wrote: >John Duncan wrote in message >news:8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu... >> Um... >> >> Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any >sound >> when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much >different? >Yes. The ZX80 certainly never had 16k of RAM either. It did, with the RAM pack. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- Two fish in a tank: one says to the other, you know how to drive this thing?? ###### From: "Steve Pritchard" Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:46:27 +0100 Organization: Spellbinder Games Message-ID: <955147025.22647.0.nnrp-14.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <955094646.25276.0.nnrp-02.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> <8clek8$ics$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Reply-To: "Steve Pritchard" NNTP-Posting-Host: spelbind.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: spelbind.demon.co.uk:158.152.149.86 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 955147025 nnrp-14:22647 NO-IDENT spelbind.demon.co.uk:158.152.149.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!spelbind.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53811 Ian Stirling wrote in message news:8clek8$ics$1@neptunium.btinternet.com... > Steve Pritchard wrote: > > >John Duncan wrote in message > >news:8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu... > >> Um... > >> > >> Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any > >sound > >> when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much > >different? > > >Yes. The ZX80 certainly never had 16k of RAM either. > > It did, with the RAM pack. The RAM pack? Surely that didn't turn up until the '81? I'm almost sure it didn't (it being black and the '80 being white). I hated that bloody RAM pack. It got so damned hot you could fry eggs on it and if it stayed put without wobbling for a whole session your were lucky enough to win the damned lottery. ###### From: Fred Jan Kraan Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:25:33 +0200 Organization: No Spam Corporation Lines: 25 Sender: fjkraan@mordor.services.calixon.com Message-ID: <38F19E0C.E9C5CC33@nospam.xs4all.nl> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <955094646.25276.0.nnrp-02.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> <8clek8$ics$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <955147025.22647.0.nnrp-14.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: fjkraan@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Host: mordor.services.calixon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 955358813 4507 192.250.25.251 (10 Apr 2000 09:26:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Apr 2000 09:26:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:53918 Steve Pritchard wrote: > Ian Stirling wrote in message > news:8clek8$ics$1@neptunium.btinternet.com... > > Steve Pritchard wrote: > > > > >John Duncan wrote in message > > >news:8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu... > > >> Um... > > >> > > >> Are you sure you mean this? I can't remember the ZX80 producing any > > >sound > > >> when I was using it.... Actually, I had a ZX81. Is it that much > > >different? > > > > >Yes. The ZX80 certainly never had 16k of RAM either. > > > > It did, with the RAM pack. > > The RAM pack? Surely that didn't turn up until the '81? I'm almost sure it > didn't (it being black and the '80 being white). ZX80 RAM Pack: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/zx80 ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: comp.programming,comp.software-eng,alt.folklore.computers,misc.writing Subject: Re: Reviews of Source for Pleasure (like films...!) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:56:36 +0100 Organization: I do not speak for anyone but myself, and barely that. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <41csc8.qlb.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <87109n$ev6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38e40989@news.hunterlink.net.au> <38f83c57.13236267@news.freeuk.net> <8chckl$h09$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <955094646.25276.0.nnrp-02.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> <8clek8$ics$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <955147025.22647.0.nnrp-14.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 955386229 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:54010 In article <955147025.22647.0.nnrp-14.9e989556@news.demon.co.uk>, "Steve Pritchard" writes: [...] > The RAM pack? Surely that didn't turn up until the '81? I'm almost sure it > didn't (it being black and the '80 being white). I have vague recollections of the '80 being similar enough to the '81 that you could use the same peripherals on it with only minor alterations, if any. > I hated that bloody RAM pack. It got so damned hot you could fry eggs on > it and if it stayed put without wobbling for a whole session your were > lucky enough to win the damned lottery. You could get little bits of ribbon cable that you could use as strain relief. I believe these were known as `dongle danglers'. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "What appears to be a sloppy or | Work: dg@tao-group.com | meaningless use of words may well be a | Play: dgiven@iname.com | completely correct use of words to express +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ sloppy or meaningless ideas." --- Anonymous