From: Scott Wheeler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:37:42 +0000 Message-ID: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 947162135 nnrp-09:4759 NO-IDENT bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!bmtech.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47479 Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. I've never seen one myself, and I wondered if anyone could tell me about them and their history. Scott -- (please de-mung address if replying by email) ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 40 Message-ID: <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 947166150 3845 63.73.218.130 (6 Jan 2000 13:42:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2000 13:42:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47462 Scott Wheeler wrote: > > Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making > back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. I've never seen one > myself, and I wondered if anyone could tell me about them and their > history. Several manufacturers? Try *several hundred* manufacturers. For an excellent look at the optimism and vitality of the S-100 market at the time, look at any BYTE from the mid 70's up until the early 80's. Go to the back of the magazine, and you'll find hundreds of ads from hundreds of outfits, mostly for S-100 stuff. Some of the big S-100 distributors/manufacturers from that era are still around today. For example, JADE still has a big sign south of LA (though all they do today is PC-clones), and California Digital is around as well (and they still sell new 8" floppy drives!) It's not too hard to find S-100 parts (motherboards, bare boards, populated boards, etc.) if you go into any decent industrial-type surplus place. I recently bought a bunch of 12-slot motherboards for $0.50 each, with the 100-pin connectors already attached. The 100-pin connectors still are available, of course (they existed even before the S-100 bus was defined), and Vector and others still sell S-100 prototyping boards. Also check out the product reviews and "new product" announcements in BYTEs from that era. Maybe I should scan in some of the multi-page color catalogs I have here from Godbout/Compupro, IMSAI, Cromemco, etc? Would anyone be interested? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 09:17:08 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 47 Message-ID: <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 947168229 5955 63.73.218.130 (6 Jan 2000 14:17:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2000 14:17:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47461 Scott Wheeler wrote: > > On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400, Tim Shoppa > wrote: > > Who started the standard? Oh, I left out that part :-). The folks at MITS came up with the S-100 bus with the Altair 8800 design, and the very earliest references made were to the "Altair Bus", then the "100-Pin bus", then the "Standard-100 bus", as I understand it. The signals on the original bus definitions correspond very closely to what you get if you map the 8080A pins and decoded status signals straight to bus lines, and you invert some of them for fun. "Standard" should often be put into quotes, as there was by no means any guarantee that you could get any two S-100 boards to work with each other. Usually a couple of modifications to the boards involved got things running, so it's not a big deal (often easier than screwing around with IRQ's in PC's today!!!) The IEEE codified the S-100 bus, and attempted to settle some of the vagaries in the common interpretations, with the IEEE-696 standard. A very accessible book on this standard and its history is _Interfacing to S-100/IEEE-696 Microcomputers_ by Mark Garetz and Sol Libes. There are numerous examples of I/O and memory boards in the book, and the begin to discuss DMA issues too. IEEE-696 goes beyond the original S-100 bus and defines extensions to allow for a 24-bit address bus and a 16-bit data bus. These extensions are supported by some of the better known lines of S-100 cards (things like the later Godbout cards and the JADE Bus Probe.) You would also benefit from reading the comp.os.cpm FAQ, I suspect. > >Maybe I should scan in some of the multi-page color catalogs > >I have here from Godbout/Compupro, IMSAI, Cromemco, etc? Would > >anyone be interested? > > Yes, I would OK, I'll dig some out and run them through the scanner. There are often price lists, too... Tim. ###### From: Scott Wheeler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:53:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 947166704 nnrp-10:13473 NO-IDENT bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!bmtech.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47477 On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: Who started the standard? >Maybe I should scan in some of the multi-page color catalogs >I have here from Godbout/Compupro, IMSAI, Cromemco, etc? Would >anyone be interested? Yes, I would Scott -- (please de-mung address if replying by email) ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: 6 Jan 2000 16:37:43 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 25 Message-ID: <852gcn$nic$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu X-Trace: flood.weeg.uiowa.edu 947176663 24140 128.255.28.3 (6 Jan 2000 16:37:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uiowa.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2000 16:37:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!novia!marge.eaglequest.com!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47478 From article <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com>, by Scott Wheeler : > Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making > back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. The S-100 backplane was developed by MITS for the Altair 8800. I still have an Altair CPU card kicking around. Then IMSAI came out with an S-100 machine. Their original plan was to build hypercube-connected multiprocessors based on this, with bidirectional parallel ports connecting each processor pair. I don't think anything ever came of that idea, but their backplane and enclosure were better engineered than the MITS ones. I have an S-100 backplane made by the U of Iowa Physics Department, never used, and a used S-100 single board computer made by them. These were made shortly after MITS came out with the Altair; some of the electronics techs in physics liked the design and, when they began coming up with their own ideas, they started manufacturing. The point is, in the late 1970's, lots of people jumped on the S-100 bandwagon. It wasn't a perfect bus, but it was easy to design for, and there was lots of software (even good support from a startup company called Micro Soft). Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: hjohnson@pluto.njcc.com (Herbert R Johnson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: 6 Jan 2000 11:46:58 -0500 Organization: NJ Computer Connection for "Herb's Stuff" Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: hjohnson@pluto.njcc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: pluto.njcc.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.new-york.net!mars.njcc.com!pluto.njcc.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47471 In article <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa wrote: *>Scott Wheeler wrote: *>> *>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400, Tim Shoppa *>> wrote: *>> *>> Who started the standard? *> *>Oh, I left out that part :-). The folks at MITS came up with the *>S-100 bus with the Altair 8800 design, and the very earliest *>references made were to the "Altair Bus", then the "100-Pin bus", *>then the "Standard-100 bus", as I understand it. The signals on the *>original bus definitions correspond very closely *>to what you get if you map the 8080A pins and decoded status *>signals straight to bus lines, and you invert some of them for *>fun. *> *>"Standard" should often be put into quotes, as there was by no *>means any guarantee that you could get any two S-100 boards to work *>with each other. Usually a couple of modifications to the boards *>involved got things running, so it's not a big deal (often easier *>than screwing around with IRQ's in PC's today!!!) *> *>The IEEE codified the S-100 bus, and attempted to settle some *>of the vagaries in the common interpretations, with the IEEE-696 *>standard. With pre-IEEE 696 cards, I'd generally recommend that you stick to the same manufacturer for a set of cards; the variations and timings were somewhat sloppy in older cards, and particularly with dynamic RAM designs. As rule of thumb this has some exceptions of course. I think it is fair to say there are roughly THREE versions of the S-100 bus. After the MITS Altair 8800, the company IMSAI produced its "IMSAI 8080"; several of the MITS bus signals were replaced or ignored on the IMSAI bus but the core set remained: two 8-bit unidirectional data lines, 16 address lines, the 8080 status and control signals, and other lines and power (unregulated positive and negative 8 volts, unregulated positive and negative 16 volts). Power was regulated on each S-100 card with individual voltage regulators: +8 became +5 for logic for instance. At about this point the name "S-100 bus" became popular. Various manufacturers used slight variations of the IMSAI S-100 bus; even MITS varied their bus for later Altair models. Most variations amounted to different signals to accomodate refresh or memory timing. There was a loose standard for managing banked memory (16 bit address = 64Kbyte memory) via I/O ports but there were other schemes as well. Many 8-bit processors were adapted to the S-100 bus in this period, but most systems used the Z80 or, later, the 8088 or 8086. Then Compupro and others developed a faster bus, good to 10 MHZ, provided 24 address lines and an option for EITHER 2-8 bit data lines or one 16-bit bidirectional data lines. Other features include master/slave arbitration and bus mastering arbitration. This became an IEEE standard called IEEE-696 in the late 1980's, about the time the S-100 bus began to decline in use. But the standard was in use by Compupro before that. They and others produced cards with 68020 processors and 80386 processors (or multiple processors) that out-performed the IBM-PC's of the era, up until roughly the late 1980's. Meanwhile many Z80 based manufacturers produced single-board S-100 systems, using the S-100 bus to operate slave cards with their own processors or to access other I/O devices. This market was eventually taken over by either IBM-PC's or what is now called "embedded controllers", non-bussed computers on a card, as chips became complex enough that a handful of them could do the work needed. My Web site has a list of the S-100 lines for IMSAI/Altair and IEEE-696 and some of the above notes. There may be some arguement about who did what when, but the technical info speaks for itself. The best documents for the IMSAI or Altair busses are the manuals for the CPU's and front panels; for the Compupro, a Compupro CPU manual or the IEEE-696 document; and the CPU manuals for the many other S-100 manufacturers. I have most of these available via my Web site. The IEEE-696 description is still available from the IEEE I believe for a fee. My "The Computer Journal" articles include a more detailed discussion of the S-100 bus: I hope to publish these this calendar year (2000), or you can get them from TCJ, my Web site has a pointer to their Web site. Herb Johnson Herbert R. Johnson http://pluto.njcc.com/~hjohnson hjohnson@pluto.njcc.com voice 609-771-1503, New Jersey USA amateur astronomer and astro-tour guide S-100 computer restoration, parts, manuals as "Dr. S-100" rebuilder/reseller of compact Macs for your computing pleasure -- Herbert R. Johnson http://pluto.njcc.com/~hjohnson hjohnson@pluto.njcc.com voice 609-771-1503, New Jersey USA amateur astronomer and astro-tour guide classic S-100 computers restoration & parts as "Dr. S-100" rebuilder/reseller of classic Macs for your computing pleasure and senior engineer at Astro Imaging Systems ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:49:21 -0800 Organization: Simco Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47480 Scott Wheeler wrote in message news:84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com... > Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making > back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. I've never seen one > myself, and I wondered if anyone could tell me about them and their > history. > I have a garage full of old S-100 machines. The S-100 started as the now famous Altair 8800 sold as a kit by Ed Roberts of MITS. It was a feature article in Popular Electronics, Jan 1975 if memory serves. The original Altair was crude and had some design bugs but was the closest thing to a minicomputer you could buy for less than $10K. In October 1975 IMSAI in San Leandro Ca. came out with an Altair compatible kit of their own, but with a vastly superior design. Easier to build, an excellent front panel, bigger power supply, better motherboard, stable memory and CPU clock, all the Altair problems fixed. (The IMSAI did have one serious flaw of it's own, the 120V AC routed through the front panel, but few people actually connected power that way) By 1977 the S-100 market took off and it was the hobby computer of choice. Floppy drives and CP/M appeared to complete the picture, turning the S-100 into a low end replacement for mini-computers. The original 8080 CPU was rapidly replaced by the Z-80 for 8-bit machines, and memory grew from the original 4KBytes to 16KB on up to 64KB for commercial machines. By 1981 the bus was on it's way to becoming a standard, IEEE-696 (from memory, correct me if its the wrong number), supporting 16 bit CPUs and up to 16MB of memory. The ST506 5.25" hard drive had come out giving everyone a chance to upgrade to "big" disks. By the time of it's demise, the S-100 had the equivalent of an IBM AT for capability, 80286 CPU, several meg of RAM, and up to 120MB of disk. There was even some network capability, using ARCnet cards. MS-DOS began life as QDOS, a CP/M look-alike for an early 8086 based S-100 system sold by Seatlle Computer Products. As everyone knows now, Bill Gates bought it and then licensed it to IBM, making Microsoft what it is today. Microsoft got it's start when Gates and Allen sold MITS the 4K Basic for the first Altair. Before the IBM PC Microsoft had a whole set of software products for CP/M, but back them they had a lot of competition and were not the market leaders. CBASIC was the language of choice for commercial programming. The software industry leaders were Gary Kildall (CP/M) and Gordon Eubanks (CBASIC), hope I got the names right. The IBM AT really did the S-100 in. It could run at higher speeds, and once clones came out it became cheaper to run. The 386 all but wiped out the S-100 manufacturers since the S-100 maxed out at 16-bit. I still have my treasured original 1977 IMSAI. It has a 500W power supply (a massive iron transformer, no switchers in those days), 20 slot motherboard, front panel, a 6Mhz Ithaca Z80 CPU with memory manager, and 512KB of RAM. The hard drive is a 6MB Xerox MFM interface, with a blazing 90ms access time. No graphics, it has four serial ports. It runs CP/M V3, with a custom BIOS. I used this machine to write 8048 and 8051 assembler programs for embedded controllers, as well as developing c. In fact, I still use the same CP/M 8051 assembler today, with a Z80/CPM emulator on a PC. The largest S-100 I have is an Integrand 10 slot chassis, 8Mhz Lomas 80286 CPU, 1MB static RAM (a fortune when I bought it!), CompuPro Floppy and hard drive controllers, 70MB disk, and a 16 channel intelligent serial card. Operating system was MP/M II, 8 users, and also a network server for ARCnet. This was built for a company and ran their accounting for several years. They gave it back to me when they upgraded to 386 based PCs. It was faster and cheaper than an IBM AT, but couldn't compete with the 386 PCs. Jack Peacock ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:05:14 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: bill_h@sunsouthwest.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47446 Tim Shoppa wrote: > "Standard" should often be put into quotes, as there was by no > means any guarantee that you could get any two S-100 boards to work > with each other. Usually a couple of modifications to the boards > involved got things running, so it's not a big deal (often easier > than screwing around with IRQ's in PC's today!!!) In fact, it's important to point out that EARLY boards from MITS aren't even compatible with the LATER ones....... And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple and Commodore, as well as software giant Microsoft (over 3,000 KNOWN bugs in NT?? good grief!) Anyway, so much for 'one manufacturer, one standard'. Bill Tucson, AZ PS: I'm looking for transcripts of Esther Dyson's yearly do here, as well as her (or Ben Rosen's) industry 'newsletters'; mostly for historical reference purposes...... ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: 07 Jan 00 14:19:02 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 39 Message-ID: <1826.41T120T8593069@sky.bus.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> <90fa7soam0uhni276omfsngjdioabog299@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-554.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47540 In article <90fa7soam0uhni276omfsngjdioabog299@4ax.com> william.hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen) writes: >On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:05:14 -0800, bill_h >wrote: > >>And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' >>we could probably live without. > >Their infamous dynamic memory board, for one. For a while it was a >truism that static ram worked and dynamic ram didn't. Back then 4K of >RAM in the form of thirty two 2102 ICs filled one circuit board and >cost about $150 while now it isn't even noticed on a desktop computer. Ah, the good old RAM-4A board. I started out with two of them in my IMSAI. (Over 1000 solder connections each to build them - I really appreciated having a good soldering iron. But I digress.) I never did trust those newfangled dynamic memories. (What? You mean I can't access memory right now because it's being refreshed?) I loved the red and green LEDs (one pair for each 1K bank) on those boards. You could watch for patterns as your program accessed different memory locations. And you soon learned to recognize - and fear - that ripple across the lights that meant your program had gone into a stack loop and wiped everything out. Then I moved up and got "The Last Memory Board" from SMS. Room for 64K on a single board! I bought it populated with 16K worth of 2Kx8 static RAM chips (so I only had to lay out $200 at once), and every Friday on the way home from work I'd stop in at the local Heathkit store and buy one more chip (for a whopping $16). Slowly my board grew to 62K (leaving 2K free for the boot ROM and buffers) - and its single regulator's heat sink still ran cool, unlike the RAM-4A's 3 heat sinks which got quite warm. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:13:17 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 947185996 28180 17.205.21.66 (6 Jan 2000 19:13:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2000 19:13:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47617 In article <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com>, bill_h@sunsouthwest.com wrote: > And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' > we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple Which Apple boards were you thinking of? ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: S-100 history Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2V6d4.590$7L.39464@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 947190462 207.91.187.171 (Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:27:42 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:27:42 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 20:27:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nntp.flash.net!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47616 In alt.folklore.computers Al Kossow wrote: > In article <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com>, bill_h@sunsouthwest.com wrote: >> And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' >> we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple > Which Apple boards were you thinking of? I'd guess the mainboard of the Apple ///. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: paul@shippo.virgin.net (Paul Grayson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:54:15 +0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> Reply-To: paul.grayson@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p10-kingfisher-gui.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net 947201233 17032 194.168.67.10 (6 Jan 2000 23:27:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jan 2000 23:27:13 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!isdnet!grolier!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!paul Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47673 On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:49:21 -0800, Jack Peacock muttered: > >The IBM AT really did the S-100 in. It could run at higher speeds, and >once clones came out it became cheaper to run. The 386 all but wiped >out the S-100 manufacturers since the S-100 maxed out at 16-bit. > There was a UK company, HM systems that produced a 386 based S100 system, known as the Minstrel 4. This was primarily for running TurboDOS. A peculiar quirk of the processor board was the ISA connector on the other side of the board, allowing the processor to be inserted into an ISA backplane, and act as a PC. The board had all the standard PC motherboard connectors - speaker, keyboard and such, and could be turned into a PC compatable simply by switching the BIOS. A collegue of mine had one running Windows 3.0 in enhanced mode with no problems. > >The largest S-100 I have is an Integrand 10 slot chassis, 8Mhz Lomas >80286 CPU, 1MB static RAM (a fortune when I bought it!), CompuPro Floppy >and hard drive controllers, 70MB disk, and a 16 channel intelligent >serial card. Operating system was MP/M II, 8 users, and also a network >server for ARCnet. This was built for a company and ran their >accounting for several years. They gave it back to me when they >upgraded to 386 based PCs. It was faster and cheaper than an IBM AT, >but couldn't compete with the 386 PCs. These Minstrel systems were simillar, but featured a SCSI adaptor in addition to Arcnet. I recall one network supporting 16 users. The systems I saw working had a 150MB disk and a cassette streamer on the SCSI bus, and ran as a server for both PCs and Apricot MS-DOS systems. -- Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK. Cuba is correct - the second millennium ends 31st December 2000. The rest of you can't count! ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:17:57 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <387530B5.17E1@sunsouthwest.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> Reply-To: bill_h@sunsouthwest.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47579 Jack Peacock wrote: > MS-DOS began life as QDOS, a CP/M look-alike for an early 8086 based > S-100 system sold by Seatlle Computer Products. As everyone knows now, > Bill Gates bought it and then licensed it to IBM, making Microsoft what > it is today. The documents regarding the sale refer ONLY to 86-DOS, something you don't bother to mention. The adverts for the Seattle Computer 8086 mention ONLY 86-DOS. The documents supporting 86-DOS never refer to it as anything else. Perhaps you'd provide a reference supporting the QDOS name, preferably one from BEFORE, oh, 1984 or so? 86-DOS came out in 1979, well before the IBM PC. From that time until it died (around 1985) it was always called 86-DOS, except for some OEM names from such places as LifeBoat Associates. I've never seen anything mentioning QDOS during that period. Have you? > Microsoft got it's start when Gates and Allen sold MITS > the 4K Basic for the first Altair. In Ed Robert's DREAMS!!!! Roberts convinced Pertec he owned Basic, but an arbitor ruled otherwise, after Pertec/MITS sued Gates/Allen/MS. But more important for us collectors, Gates said that first Basic was IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN, and he said it UNDER OATH. So, we can freely pass copies around. What's he gonna do - say he lied? Under oath? Anyway, since it was developed on Hardvard's computers, it probably WAS in the Public Domain anyway, and not because of any carelessness on the part of MITS or Ed Roberts; nor of the HomeBrew members. Bill Tucson, AZ ###### Message-ID: <38753687.13F4683A@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:45:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.93.219.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@neo.rr.com X-Trace: sandstorm.neo.rr.com 947205916 24.93.219.213 (Thu, 06 Jan 2000 19:45:16 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 19:45:16 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!sandstorm.neo.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47524 What kind of 8" drives does California Digital have, and how much are they ? I could possibly use a couple. Barry Watzman Tim Shoppa wrote: > Scott Wheeler wrote: > > > > Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making > > back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. I've never seen one > > myself, and I wondered if anyone could tell me about them and their > > history. > > Several manufacturers? Try *several hundred* manufacturers. > > For an excellent look at the optimism and vitality of the S-100 > market at the time, look at any BYTE from the mid 70's up until > the early 80's. Go to the back of the magazine, and you'll find > hundreds of ads from hundreds of outfits, mostly for S-100 stuff. > > Some of the big S-100 distributors/manufacturers from that era > are still around today. For example, JADE still has a big sign > south of LA (though all they do today is PC-clones), and California > Digital is around as well (and they still sell new 8" floppy drives!) > > It's not too hard to find S-100 parts (motherboards, bare boards, > populated boards, etc.) if you go into any decent industrial-type > surplus place. I recently bought a bunch of 12-slot motherboards > for $0.50 each, with the 100-pin connectors already attached. > > The 100-pin connectors still are available, of course (they existed > even before the S-100 bus was defined), and Vector and others still > sell S-100 prototyping boards. > > Also check out the product reviews and "new product" announcements > in BYTEs from that era. > > Maybe I should scan in some of the multi-page color catalogs > I have here from Godbout/Compupro, IMSAI, Cromemco, etc? Would > anyone be interested? > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### Message-ID: <38753856.D74C6660@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:53:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.93.219.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@neo.rr.com X-Trace: sandstorm.neo.rr.com 947206381 24.93.219.213 (Thu, 06 Jan 2000 19:53:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 19:53:01 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!sandstorm.neo.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47526 All of the negative comments not withstanding, if you stick with 100% "true" static memory, and don't use either DMA or interrupts, the vast majority of boards WILL work together. And this configuration still allows high performance 4 MHz Z-80's or 5 MHz 8085's with double density 8" floppy disks. If you want interrupts or DMA, things get a bit more difficult, but not too bad. The key, in my experience, is avoiding the use of dynamic memory. Barry Watzman bill_h wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > "Standard" should often be put into quotes, as there was by no > > means any guarantee that you could get any two S-100 boards to work > > with each other. Usually a couple of modifications to the boards > > involved got things running, so it's not a big deal (often easier > > than screwing around with IRQ's in PC's today!!!) > > In fact, it's important to point out that EARLY boards from MITS > aren't even compatible with the LATER ones....... > > And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' > we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple > and Commodore, as well as software giant Microsoft (over 3,000 > KNOWN bugs in NT?? good grief!) > > Anyway, so much for 'one manufacturer, one standard'. > > Bill > Tucson, AZ > > PS: > I'm looking for transcripts of Esther Dyson's yearly do here, as > well as her (or Ben Rosen's) industry 'newsletters'; mostly for > historical reference purposes...... ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 20:42:57 -0600 Organization: Utterly Disorganized. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <90fa7soam0uhni276omfsngjdioabog299@4ax.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> Reply-To: william.hamblen@nashville.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47702 On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:05:14 -0800, bill_h wrote: >And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' >we could probably live without. Their infamous dynamic memory board, for one. For a while it was a truism that static ram worked and dynamic ram didn't. Back then 4K of RAM in the form of thirty two 2102 ICs filled one circuit board and cost about $150 while now it isn't even noticed on a desktop computer. -- Night is the shadow of the Earth. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: 7 Jan 2000 02:56:08 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <853kk8$d6m@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u2.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u2.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47583 Scott Wheeler wrote: : Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making : back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. I've never seen one : myself, and I wondered if anyone could tell me about them and their : history. Altair, Vector Graphics, Imsai, Sol-20, Polymorhics, just to name a few. The S-100 standard was wonderful as there were so many of them. :) Eric : Scott : -- : (please de-mung address if replying by email) ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:40:46 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3875A68E.13E7@sunsouthwest.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> Reply-To: bill_h@sunsouthwest.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!newsfeed.rhein-neckar.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47585 Al Kossow wrote: > > In article <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com>, bill_h@sunsouthwest.com wrote: > > > And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' > > we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple > > Which Apple boards were you thinking of? Apple /// and the production line 'Kottke Drop' stacked memory chips on too-thin pc board banging on the cases with rubber mallets Mike Scott and ''ship 'em anyway'' very large number of DOA's (replaced) read most any reviews from 1980-81 You'll find it all in there, somewhere.......... Why? Didn't you know? Bill Tucson ###### From: edick@hotmail.com (Richard Erlacher) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:44:52 GMT Organization: Erlacher Associates Reply-To: edick@hotmail.com Message-ID: <387617d3.520207928@mindmeld.idcomm.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38753687.13F4683A@neo.rr.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: x2-pip19.idcomm.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2-pip19.idcomm.com X-Trace: 7 Jan 2000 09:13:57 -0700, x2-pip19.idcomm.com Lines: 58 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: superego.idcomm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!mindmeld.idcomm.com!x2-pip19.idcomm.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47632 They have quite an assortment, even PERSCI drive, but they're not as cheap as you'd like, Barry. Dick On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:45:16 GMT, Barry Watzman wrote: >What kind of 8" drives does California Digital have, and how much are they >? I could possibly use a couple. > >Barry Watzman > > >Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Scott Wheeler wrote: >> > >> > Back in the mid to late 70's, there were several manufacturers making >> > back-plane micros based on the S-100 spec. I've never seen one >> > myself, and I wondered if anyone could tell me about them and their >> > history. >> >> Several manufacturers? Try *several hundred* manufacturers. >> >> For an excellent look at the optimism and vitality of the S-100 >> market at the time, look at any BYTE from the mid 70's up until >> the early 80's. Go to the back of the magazine, and you'll find >> hundreds of ads from hundreds of outfits, mostly for S-100 stuff. >> >> Some of the big S-100 distributors/manufacturers from that era >> are still around today. For example, JADE still has a big sign >> south of LA (though all they do today is PC-clones), and California >> Digital is around as well (and they still sell new 8" floppy drives!) >> >> It's not too hard to find S-100 parts (motherboards, bare boards, >> populated boards, etc.) if you go into any decent industrial-type >> surplus place. I recently bought a bunch of 12-slot motherboards >> for $0.50 each, with the 100-pin connectors already attached. >> >> The 100-pin connectors still are available, of course (they existed >> even before the S-100 bus was defined), and Vector and others still >> sell S-100 prototyping boards. >> >> Also check out the product reviews and "new product" announcements >> in BYTEs from that era. >> >> Maybe I should scan in some of the multi-page color catalogs >> I have here from Godbout/Compupro, IMSAI, Cromemco, etc? Would >> anyone be interested? >> >> -- >> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com >> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ >> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 >> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:59:28 -0800 Organization: Simco Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <387530B5.17E1@sunsouthwest.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47647 bill_h wrote in message news:387530B5.17E1@sunsouthwest.com... > Perhaps you'd provide a reference supporting the QDOS name, preferably > one from BEFORE, oh, 1984 or so? 86-DOS came out in 1979, well before > the IBM PC. From that time until it died (around 1985) it was always > called 86-DOS, except for some OEM names from such places as LifeBoat > Associates. I've never seen anything mentioning QDOS during that period. > > Have you? > Blame it on senility, it was a long time ago, all I remember is a vague ad in Byte. I do recall seeing it listed by Lifeboat as SB-86 one year at Comdex. Jack Peacock ###### From: rmonagha@smu.edu (Robert Monaghan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 7 Jan 2000 16:48:31 -0600 Organization: Southern Methodist University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <855qfv$ur2$1@post.cis.smu.edu> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <387530B5.17E1@sunsouthwest.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: post.cis.smu.edu X-Trace: flash.seas.smu.edu 947285314 1672 129.119.64.23 (7 Jan 2000 22:48:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@seas.smu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2000 22:48:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!news-feeder.wcg.net!WCG!cabal12.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!207.136.1.21.MISMATCH!cabal11.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!news.smu.edu!smu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47588 Hi BIll, Given your observations, is there any site which has posted or made available or archived some of these early BASICs? I'd be interested in such resources (or if anyone has a copy for sale, preferably with documentation?). I'd like to see Microsoft follow in Borland and APPLE's steps by posting some of their old outdated software and documentation for those with historical interest or older hardware they'd like to play with - but obviously software that isn't supported and which they have no future interest in selling etc. thanks for the observations... regards bobm -- * Robert Monaghan POB752182 Dallas Tx 75275-2182 rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu * * Bronica 6x6 medium format: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronica.html site * * Medium Format Cameras: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/index.html megasite* ###### From: "Ken Farmer" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:39:48 -0600 Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.198.16 Message-ID: <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net> X-Trace: 7 Jan 2000 23:41:17 GMT, 166.72.198.16 Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news1.prserv.net!166.72.198.16 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47549 Scott Wheeler wrote in message ... >On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400, Tim Shoppa > wrote: > >Who started the standard? I have hundreds of "Standard" S-100 cards, none of which will work with each other until I trace out what is added, missing, or inverted. In this case, you are very lucky if you have a matching manual for the card. Unfortunately, even with the original manual, the card has usually been modified to fit someone's system. By the way, has anybody EVER seen a dynamic ram card from the mid '70s that actually worked? Not sure that I have. I remember a sales table in The Micro Store in Dallas that had a three foot stack of dram cards of all kinds - your choice- 5 bucks each - as is - no returns. About 1977 I think. kenfarmer47@yahoo.com ###### Message-ID: <38769181.4F8852D@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 01:25:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.93.219.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@neo.rr.com X-Trace: sandstorm.neo.rr.com 947294741 24.93.219.213 (Fri, 07 Jan 2000 20:25:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 20:25:41 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!sandstorm.neo.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47717 I have some Cromemco 16KZ dynamic ram boards here that I am using. Three of the four that I have work as well as static memory -- even with the IMSAI front panel. But I have not even attempted to use them with DMA. Barry Watzman Ken Farmer wrote: > Scott Wheeler wrote in message ... > >On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400, Tim Shoppa > > wrote: > > > >Who started the standard? > > I have hundreds of "Standard" S-100 cards, none of which will work with each > other until I trace out what is added, missing, or inverted. In this case, > you are very lucky if you have a matching manual for the card. > Unfortunately, even with the original manual, the card has usually been > modified to fit someone's system. > > By the way, has anybody EVER seen a dynamic ram card from the mid '70s that > actually worked? Not sure that I have. I remember a sales table in The > Micro Store in Dallas that had a three foot stack of dram cards of all > kinds - your choice- 5 bucks each - as is - no returns. About 1977 I think. > > kenfarmer47@yahoo.com ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:30:34 -0800 Organization: Simco Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net> <387839D9.B6DAFEB7@ghg.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47810 David & Lisa Fuson wrote in message news:387839D9.B6DAFEB7@ghg.net... > Yes, I have a Dynamic Ram Card that I used for years before I turned off my > MITS Attache. It had 64k of memory, I shadowed out the last for 4k to use with > my EPROM card, it worked perfectly for 6-8 years. I think the vendor was SD > Sales of Dallas. > That was the ExpandoRam series, one of the few DRAM cards that really worked well on S-100 systems. The ExpandoRam I was a straight 64K card, I think the II had extended addressing or bank switching, and the III was 64 or 256KB with optional ECC and 24-bit addressing. I used a lot of the ExpandoRam I and ExpandoRAM III cards, still have some of the III cards in a box. Only thing I didn't like on the IIIs was the RAMs came soldered in, difficult to upgrade to 256KB. SDS (nee SD Sales) also made some good floppy controllers (Versafloppy I and II) and MFM hard drive (Versafloppy III), and a Z80 single board slave S-100 card. None of their stuff was particularly fast but it was reliable and well-built. My IMSAI still uses a VersaFloppy III for disk. Jack Peacock ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:04:30 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <387A657E.3202@compuserve.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47772 Ken Farmer wrote: > > By the way, has anybody EVER seen a dynamic ram card from the mid '70s that > actually worked? Not sure that I have. I remember a sales table in The > Micro Store in Dallas that had a three foot stack of dram cards of all > kinds - your choice- 5 bucks each - as is - no returns. About 1977 I think. > I had a Godbout DRAM card that worked in my SOL-20.... Sam ###### Message-ID: <387839D9.B6DAFEB7@ghg.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 07:33:46 +0000 From: David & Lisa Fuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-21.ghg.net X-Trace: 9 Jan 2000 07:33:16 -0600, max4-21.ghg.net Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.ghg.net!max4-21.ghg.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47829 Yes, I have a Dynamic Ram Card that I used for years before I turned off my MITS Attache. It had 64k of memory, I shadowed out the last for 4k to use with my EPROM card, it worked perfectly for 6-8 years. I think the vendor was SD Sales of Dallas. Ken Farmer wrote: > Scott Wheeler wrote in message ... > >On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:42:28 -0400, Tim Shoppa > > wrote: > > > >Who started the standard? > > I have hundreds of "Standard" S-100 cards, none of which will work with each > other until I trace out what is added, missing, or inverted. In this case, > you are very lucky if you have a matching manual for the card. > Unfortunately, even with the original manual, the card has usually been > modified to fit someone's system. > > By the way, has anybody EVER seen a dynamic ram card from the mid '70s that > actually worked? Not sure that I have. I remember a sales table in The > Micro Store in Dallas that had a three foot stack of dram cards of all > kinds - your choice- 5 bucks each - as is - no returns. About 1977 I think. > > kenfarmer47@yahoo.com ###### Message-ID: From: Jonathan Griffitts Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net> Lines: 22 Organization: AnyWare Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:29:13 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.238.99.82 X-Complaints-To: news@rmi.net X-Trace: den-news1.rmi.net 947741950 205.238.99.82 (Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:39:10 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:39:10 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!natasha.rmii.com!den-news1.rmi.net!qadas.com!jcg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47883 In article <3876799d_4@news1.prserv.net>, Ken Farmer writes >I have hundreds of "Standard" S-100 cards, none of which will work with each >other until I trace out what is added, missing, or inverted. In this case, >you are very lucky if you have a matching manual for the card. >Unfortunately, even with the original manual, the card has usually been >modified to fit someone's system. > >By the way, has anybody EVER seen a dynamic ram card from the mid '70s that >actually worked? Not sure that I have. Why, yes! Installed in my old Altair 8800. It worked just fine. But I designed and built it myself. Seriously, the reputation of DRAM in those days was poor because of many badly designed cards, but there were a fair number that worked. And instead of just whining about poorly designed hardware or software, it was common practice to rework it or build from scratch. I miss that. -- Jonathan Griffitts AnyWare Engineering Boulder, CO, USA voice/fax: 303 442-0556 email jcg@qadas.com ###### From: simotit@evitech.fi (Simo Tuominen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:03:42 GMT Organization: Not likely. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <387d0656.11206219@news.freenet.hut.fi> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-0-03.evitech.fi X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.defero.net!news.bbnetworks.net!learnet.freenet.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48200 On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:05:14 -0800, bill_h wrote: >And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' >we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple >and Commodore, as well as software giant Microsoft (over 3,000 What CBM boards are you thinking of? ###### From: bill_h Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: S-100 history Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:03:53 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <38834B79.6B4C@sunsouthwest.com> References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> <387d0656.11206219@news.freenet.hut.fi> Reply-To: bill_h@sunsouthwest.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48183 Simo Tuominen wrote: > > On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:05:14 -0800, bill_h > wrote: > > >And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' > >we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple > >and Commodore, as well as software giant Microsoft (over 3,000 > > What CBM boards are you thinking of? Read virtually *any* review of the first generation PETs; they were more likely to arrive at a dealer DOA than working. They were ''inexpensively'' built, and it showed. >From my own experience, I'd say the chintzy sockets were a big part of the problem; the other friction connections were also failure-prone. Search for reviews from 1977-78 about the PET computer. It's all there. Also, bear in mind that the very earliest reviews may be aboout the plastic-cased prototype PET, and not having seen the insides of one of those, maybe it was somewhat better built. Anyone actually know? Bill Tucson ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.cpm From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: S-100 history X-Nntp-Posting-Host: zs150050.shrv.bna.boeing.com Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 28 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 References: <84t0OD8+uaoZ6CBXcStl5hXLj5LU@4ax.com> <38745574.7092EA36@trailing-edge.com> <38745D94.DAE5D37@trailing-edge.com> <3874E76A.122D@sunsouthwest.com> <387d0656.11206219@news.freenet.hut.fi> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:34:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.nero.net!news.uidaho.edu!sea-feed.news.verio.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48177 Howdy! Simo Tuominen wrote in message <387d0656.11206219@news.freenet.hut.fi>... >On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:05:14 -0800, bill_h >wrote: > >>And, MITS shipped non-working boards, setting another 'standard' >>we could probably live without. This was later emulated by Apple >>and Commodore, as well as software giant Microsoft (over 3,000 > >What CBM boards are you thinking of? Personal experience - the computer store I worked for at the time had one of the owners up to Commodore's HQ (at King of Prussia at the time, IIRC) to negotiate a better price on the (then new) Commodore 64. We got them down to $325/cost in 100 lots, split into 3 shipments. We got the first shipment in, and pulled a 100% QA test on them. There were 10 DOA 64's in the pallet. The testing was done on Saturday evening. Sunday morning the local Montgomery Ward's had an ad for C64's at $299.95 each ... Needless to say, WE WERE PISSED! RwP ###### From: rebus777@aol.com (Rebus777) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: S-100 history Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Jan 2000 22:29:08 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000129172908.26928.00000281@ng-bk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news.gigabell.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:49112 Yes when I got into C64's in '84 I went through 3 before I got one that worked for more than a week. The one I still have is the 4th I have owened... > Personal experience - the computer store I worked for at the time >had one of the owners up to Commodore's HQ (at King of Prussia at the time, >IIRC) to negotiate a better price on the (then new) Commodore 64. We got >them down to $325/cost in 100 lots, split into 3 shipments. We got the >first shipment in, and pulled a 100% QA test on them. There were 10 DOA >64's in the pallet. > > The testing was done on Saturday evening. Sunday morning the local >Montgomery Ward's had an ad for C64's at $299.95 each ... > > Needless to say, WE WERE PISSED! > > RwP > > > > > > > > >