From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: IBM PC in trash Date: 4 Dec 1999 21:39:53 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 11 Message-ID: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an essentially worthless piece of trash. I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which are seriously obsolete by today's standards? ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 4 Dec 1999 22:49:51 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 944348216 nnrp-09:11561 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail lwin (lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com) wrote: : Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out : an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there Minor correction : Big floppy drives are at least 8". I assume this machine had the standard 5.25" units... : was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. : Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an : essentially worthless piece of trash. Obviously I'm completely behind the times, but who cares :-). On the desk in front of me is an original PC/XT. It still runs my EPROM programmer, GAL programmer, cable tester, reads odd disks, etc, etc, etc... Or at least it would do had I not borrowed its MDA monitor onto this machine until I get round to rewinding the horizontal drive transformer for my other MDA monitor... : I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have : no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which WHo cares if it works? That machine is almost all standard chips that you can still get from a good electronics shop. The full schematics (and BIOS source listings) were published in the IBM Technical Reference manual. These machines are trivial to repair. You know, I sometimes wonder if _anyone_ can still read a schematic and use a 'scope and logic analyser ;-) : I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which : are seriously obsolete by today's standards? Well, I still use machines even older than that, and nothing would convince me to 'upgrade' (meaning replace them with something that claims to be faster, but which is totally undocumented). I would not replace that XT, and the much-hacked [1] PC/AT that I'm typing this on with a couple of modern Pentium machines unless you also provided me with full schematics and ROM sources (I have all the IBM Technical Reference manuals for the PC, XT, AT, etc). [1] Meaning that it's still got the original motherboard, but with a 486 kludgbeboard in the 80286 socket, with chips piggybacked and with wires flying all over the place. And an IDE card with a bit of stripboard with a couple of other chips hung off it. And an IBM '128K memory expansion adapter' with 1M of RAM on it. And.... -tony ###### From: "Form@C" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 07:54:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mixtel.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mixtel.demon.co.uk:158.152.160.157 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 944380455 nnrp-08:7772 NO-IDENT mixtel.demon.co.uk:158.152.160.157 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mixtel.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 4 Dec 1999 22:49:51 -0000, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Well, I still use machines even older than that, and nothing would >convince me to 'upgrade' (meaning replace them with something that claims >to be faster, but which is totally undocumented). I would not replace >that XT, and the much-hacked [1] PC/AT that I'm typing this on with a >couple of modern Pentium machines unless you also provided me with full >schematics and ROM sources (I have all the IBM Technical Reference >manuals for the PC, XT, AT, etc). > >[1] Meaning that it's still got the original motherboard, but with a 486 >kludgbeboard in the 80286 socket, with chips piggybacked and with wires >flying all over the place. And an IDE card with a bit of stripboard with >a couple of other chips hung off it. And an IBM '128K memory expansion >adapter' with 1M of RAM on it. And.... > and a Z80 co-processor by any chance tony? now, it would be fun getting the bios to recognise *that*! -- Mick NASCOM enthusiast? Try http://www.mixtel.demon.co.uk UK home of the first British home computer. Also Rough Audio at http://www.mixtel.demon.co.uk/audio ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sun, 05 Dec 99 11:27:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: UXbc2WfH6hd6mWqJh1RktF5ROJhpAIm8pKF483cyooU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 1999 12:47:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d15 In article <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >lwin (lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com) wrote: >: Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out >: an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there > >Minor correction : Big floppy drives are at least 8". I assume this >machine had the standard 5.25" units... This line made me feel old. >: I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have >: no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which > >WHo cares if it works? That machine is almost all standard chips that you >can still get from a good electronics shop. The full schematics (and BIOS >source listings) were published in the IBM Technical Reference manual. >These machines are trivial to repair. > >You know, I sometimes wonder if _anyone_ can still read a schematic and >use a 'scope and logic analyser ;-) I can't. It was considered work for males so I went the other direction. The guys didn't want to do the work I did :-). > >: I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which >: are seriously obsolete by today's standards? > >Well, I still use machines even older than that, and nothing would >convince me to 'upgrade' (meaning replace them with something that claims >to be faster, but which is totally undocumented). I would not replace >that XT, and the much-hacked [1] PC/AT that I'm typing this on with a >couple of modern Pentium machines unless you also provided me with full >schematics and ROM sources (I have all the IBM Technical Reference >manuals for the PC, XT, AT, etc). > >[1] Meaning that it's still got the original motherboard, but with a 486 >kludgbeboard in the 80286 socket, with chips piggybacked and with wires >flying all over the place. And an IDE card with a bit of stripboard with >a couple of other chips hung off it. And an IBM '128K memory expansion >adapter' with 1M of RAM on it. And.... Then how do you find an ISP who _thinks_ that everybody should be running the latest and slowest Microshit? All of the "improvements" are making my old Microshit computer almost worthless as far as accessing newsgroups. This ISP (not the AOL one) doesn't seem to think that people read newsgroups. What do people do if they don't do newsgroups? I can't think of anything else I'd rather do :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 5 Dec 1999 12:35:31 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <82dm6j$f3@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 944403952 nnrp-10:13993 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.netcrusader.net!194.159.255.21!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Form@C (mick@mixtel.demon.co.uk) wrote: [My PC/AT...] : >flying all over the place. And an IDE card with a bit of stripboard with : >a couple of other chips hung off it. And an IBM '128K memory expansion : >adapter' with 1M of RAM on it. And.... : > : and a Z80 co-processor by any chance tony? Not _yet_. Heck, I'm out of slots, and the expansion cabinet doesn't like 8MHz buses :-). I've got a 6502 (Apple ][) copro card somewhere :-). When I get some time I must give it a go. I've been known to wander around with a 5155 (IBM Portable PC, an XT motherboard in a 'portable' case) with a B004 clone in it. That's a T800 transputer + 2M RAM... -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 5 Dec 1999 14:56:08 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <82due8$se@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 944410238 nnrp-02:5040 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 44 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: : >Minor correction : Big floppy drives are at least 8". I assume this : >machine had the standard 5.25" units... : This line made me feel old. I guess I really am old, then... I can see 6 8" drives from where I'm sitting, and there are more in the next room.... : >You know, I sometimes wonder if _anyone_ can still read a schematic and : >use a 'scope and logic analyser ;-) : I can't. It was considered work for males so I went the other : direction. The guys didn't want to do the work I did :-). This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but sometimes I feel like I'm the last person in the world to repair PCs using a 'scope and analyser -- repair them in the same way that I repair every other electronic device around here... About 15 years ago there was the feeling that a microprocessor was somehow 'magic' and you couldn't possibly understand how a processor worked in terms of gates and flip-flops. (a few days inside a minicomputer armed with the service docs cured that one). There now seems to be the attitude that a computer is somehow 'magic' and that you can't think of it as being an electronic device to be repaired in the same way as (say) a radio or TV. I don't know where this myth came from, but I wish it would go back. [..] : Then how do you find an ISP who _thinks_ that everybody should I don't. I'd change ISPs... Fortunately, I've got an ISP who gives me a SLIP or PPP connection and it's up to me what software I use (Of course I have to abide by an acceptable use policy, but that doesn't mean I can't use whatever software I like). -tony ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sun, 5 DEC 99 13:44:18 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.4 X-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news writes: >>Minor correction : Big floppy drives are at least 8". I assume this >>machine had the standard 5.25" units... > >This line made me feel old. Yea, sigh..... I still have several Shugart 851's I bought about 15 years ago in a flea market for $7 each. The date codes on the chips when I bought them were only three or so years old, the technology changed that fast. IIRC they cost about $600 new. BTW they work fine, I still use two of them on my SWTPC 6809 system with the other three as spares. >>You know, I sometimes wonder if _anyone_ can still read a schematic and >>use a 'scope and logic analyser ;-) > >I can't. It was considered work for males so I went the other >direction. The guys didn't want to do the work I did :-). A couple of years ago, I was at a customer site and needed to use a scope to check some data signal levels. It was a new "digital" scope and what depressed me was that I couldn't figure out how to set it up just to watch one trace :-( In a class of 80 or so EE's, back in the late 60's there were only three women. I still occasionally talk to one of them (she works for IBM, now in Texas) and her faculty advisor at the time advised her that women shouldn't try to become EE's :-( Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Message-ID: <384af00a$3$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.77 b77 Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:06:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 944435212 199.224.125.106 (Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:06:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:06:52 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail In <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com>, on 12/04/99 at 09:39 PM, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) said: >Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out an IBM >PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there was also an >old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. >Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an >essentially worthless piece of trash. Try closer to 4K. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! -- -- 42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> From: jata@aepiax.net (Julian Thomas) Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Message-ID: <384af0c1$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.77 b77 Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:09:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.224.125.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@epix.net X-Trace: news1.epix.net 944435395 199.224.125.106 (Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:09:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:09:55 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail In , on 12/05/99 at 07:54 AM, "Form@C" said: > I would not replace >that XT I don't blame you for not replacing the XT, but it was a happy day indeed when the PS on my XT died and it was replaced by a PC Power & Cooling silencer model. -- Julian Thomas: jt . epix @ net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! -- -- Just look at it this way...not matter how bad Linux can get, it's still better than a 'stable' version of NT. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 10:56:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: jLvQCGc3v5se7ekPU188NcJnG2EoIOMkJXglpiEt9uk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1999 12:16:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d9 In article , J. Chris Hausler wrote: > writes: >>>You know, I sometimes wonder if _anyone_ can still read a schematic and >>>use a 'scope and logic analyser ;-) >> >>I can't. It was considered work for males so I went the other >>direction. The guys didn't want to do the work I did :-). > >A couple of years ago, I was at a customer site and needed >to use a scope to check some data signal levels. It was a >new "digital" scope and what depressed me was that I couldn't >figure out how to set it up just to watch one trace :-( What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that gave a 2-d picture of sinusoidal additions. I always wanted to know how use those. I got a chance for about 1-1/2 hours in a EE lab; the lab, of course, was too short for my satisfaction. I wanted to play with the scope (finally I was allowed to touch one :-))), ask questions about how it worked (there were so many dials and toggles, etc.) and then figure out if it really worked like I was told. > >In a class of 80 or so EE's, back in the late 60's there were >only three women. I still occasionally talk to one of them >(she works for IBM, now in Texas) and her faculty advisor at >the time advised her that women shouldn't try to become EE's :-( Yea, most women...I mean, girls, got that message. Some of us were just too stubborn to listen to the stupid male. (The smart ones were eager to let the females know what they knew.) Of course, the same thing happened when a female was in a similar power position...so it wasn't sexist. The behaviour was all about retaining one's power and letting rivals in. What do they call that??? Territorial imperative? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Mon, 6 DEC 99 14:27:58 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5zjj8VW.jchausler@delphi.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 X-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news writes: >What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that >gave a 2-d picture of sinusoidal additions. I always wanted You had to "program" it to set up time bases, traces, etc. Looking at the panel and only being familiar with the "classic" O-scope, I couldn't figure out what I needed to do just display a single trace with a free running trigger :-( The machines are getting smarter than I. This was at a customer site up in Calgary Canada a couple years ago and so I don't recall the manufacturer of the scope. Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:50:32 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 34 Message-ID: <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail lwin wrote: > > Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out > an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there > was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. > > Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an > essentially worthless piece of trash. > Well, IMHO the IBM PC was always essentially a worthless piece of trash... and it belongs in the garbage. Of course now that they are antique technology, they are worth more to me. But I just never forgave IBM for choosing the wrong chip with the wrong architecture (segmentation). > > I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have > no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which > I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which > are seriously obsolete by today's standards? > I bought a couple of IBM XT's from a thrift store for $5 US each a while back (sans monitors and keyboards). I gutted them and tossed the cases. They have some nice 64k RAM chips that are useful for home-built computer projects. And the power supplies will still put out 5 and 12 volts, so that too is useful. I got an 8088 project book at a library sale for 50 cents, so maybe I can make use of the CPU's too. Even the hard disks may be intresting to experiment with. So if you can *not* use the systems, at least salvage some of the parts. That's better than letting the whole mess go to waste. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82due8$se@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY From: aje9383@osfmail.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Erickson) NNTP-Posting-Host: grace.isc.rit.edu X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: grace.isc.rit.edu Message-ID: <384bb73a@news.isc.rit.edu> Date: 6 Dec 1999 08:16:42 -0500 X-Trace: 6 Dec 1999 08:16:42 -0500, grace.isc.rit.edu Lines: 50 XPident: Unknown X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.21.4.100 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kodak.com!news-nysernet-16.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.isc.rit.edu!aje9383 In article <82due8$se@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, Tony Duell wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >: >You know, I sometimes wonder if _anyone_ can still read a schematic and >: >use a 'scope and logic analyser ;-) > >: I can't. It was considered work for males so I went the other >: direction. The guys didn't want to do the work I did :-). > >This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but sometimes I feel like I'm >the last person in the world to repair PCs using a 'scope and analyser -- >repair them in the same way that I repair every other electronic device >around here... > >About 15 years ago there was the feeling that a microprocessor was >somehow 'magic' and you couldn't possibly understand how a processor >worked in terms of gates and flip-flops. (a few days inside a >minicomputer armed with the service docs cured that one). > >There now seems to be the attitude that a computer is somehow 'magic' and >that you can't think of it as being an electronic device to be repaired >in the same way as (say) a radio or TV. I don't know where this myth came >from, but I wish it would go back. In their defence, modern computers are somewhat closer to magic than to electronics, at least from a service perspective. I mean, with surface mount chips and with 100 MHz busses, it's really, really hard to find a fault (other than the really obvious ones) and fix it. I know that one can do surface mount soldering/desoldering by hand, and that there most likely are logic analyzers which operate at those speeds and that quite good scope probes might not cause more glitches than they find and that it is possible (with a lot of work) to follow traces on an n-layer pcb, but it's still much closer to impossible than with an XT class machine. (There's also less you can do if something is bad--what with only three chips on a motherboard or whatever, your choices are pretty limited.) ObWarStory: About a year ago, I had to cut the trace for the IRQ which goes from the Z8350 SCC (or Z8530? I can't remember which is SCSI, and which is serial) to the BBU and thence to the MC68000 chip on my Mac SE as the SCC was constantly (as in, even while reset was asserted) making an interrupt request. This caused the poor little rom boot-up routines to have a fit. (As in, "I don't know what to do with this interrupt; I think I'll just start over and hope it doesn't happen next time." This rather leads to a less than useful machine...) No scope needed--just a plain old logic probe. I was lucky that it was a stuck-at fault. I am also glad that the SE logic board is only a two-sided beast. --Andrew Erickson ###### Sender: marc@dumbcat.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> From: Marco S Hyman Date: 06 Dec 1999 16:14:45 -0800 Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. (www.snafu.org) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.54.48.242 X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 944525686 228 marc@206.54.48.242 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that A scope where the input signal doesn't directly control the deflection plates. The input signal is sampled at an A-to-D stage and stored as bits in memory. The advantage is that a single sample can be captured and displayed at various magnifications, etc. There was (is?) at least one digital scope out there running an embedded version of smalltalk! // marc ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 14:23:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <82j9ve$i4q$4@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <5zjj8VW.jchausler@delphi.com> X-Trace: rdLLRslaJ57TXGbM17TEZeKZQMu6fwUuA2HScG6TpmI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1999 15:43:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-26 In article <5zjj8VW.jchausler@delphi.com>, J. Chris Hausler wrote: > writes: > >>What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that >>gave a 2-d picture of sinusoidal additions. I always wanted > >You had to "program" it to set up time bases, traces, etc. >Looking at the panel and only being familiar with the "classic" >O-scope, I couldn't figure out what I needed to do just display >a single trace with a free running trigger :-( The machines are >getting smarter than I. This was at a customer site up in >Calgary Canada a couple years ago and so I don't recall the >manufacturer of the scope. The rule of thumb was to get the software out of the way when trying to debug the hardware. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Tue, 07 Dec 99 14:24:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <82ja1f$i4q$5@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: rdLLRslaJ57nc/viUpfc5WVDmcQ3DRZlcF1UaHkICz8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1999 15:44:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-26 In article , Marco S Hyman wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that > >A scope where the input signal doesn't directly control the deflection >plates. The input signal is sampled at an A-to-D stage and stored >as bits in memory. The advantage is that a single sample can >be captured and displayed at various magnifications, etc. > >There was (is?) at least one digital scope out there running an embedded >version of smalltalk! And who debugs the scope? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 14:30:11 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <88CFED7A80C92F00.BD1006035BE5750D.784D32D19B2F1647@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <384D8A73.ECF65ECD@jkmicro.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <944594837.14884.0.nnrp-11.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Dec 7 16:25:43 1999 NNTP-Posting-Host: ![>9&1k-W#K9Nl4A9`87@;obb (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Ian Stirling wrote: > > Marco S Hyman wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >> What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that > > >A scope where the input signal doesn't directly control the deflection > >plates. The input signal is sampled at an A-to-D stage and stored > >as bits in memory. The advantage is that a single sample can > >be captured and displayed at various magnifications, etc. > > And the disadvantage is that it's a lot harder to use to it's limits, > without a non-trivial understanding of it. > With an analogue scope, if you see a trace, that's what was gotten, > minus any frequency components much over the bandwidth of the scope. Well usually. I've been led down the path a number of times with a dual-channel analog scope. If it's set for alternate sweep, you can easily and cluelessly miss what's going on on the dead channel while the active channel's sweeping. ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:49:15 -0600 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 23 Message-ID: <82jvj7$5cf$1@news1.tc.umn.edu> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grg2.micro.umn.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!news1.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Charles Richmond wrote in message <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net>... >lwin wrote: >> >> Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out >> an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there >> was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. That's nothin... Go to a recycling place and you'll see whole warehouses stacked to the ceiling with PC's up thru 66mhz 486's and 14 inch color monitors, all destined for scrap heap. Windows-95 made everything before the 486 "obsolete" to the business and home users. One up side is it leaves a lot of free or better computers left for the tinkerers. ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 19:15:45 GMT Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 31 Message-ID: <82jmh6$i9b$3@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <5zjj8VW.jchausler@delphi.com> <82j9ve$i4q$4@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 944594278 18731 194.154.98.206 (7 Dec 1999 19:17:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1999 19:17:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!oleane!newsfeed.icl.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert In article <82j9ve$i4q$4@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <5zjj8VW.jchausler@delphi.com>, > J. Chris Hausler wrote: >> writes: >> >>>What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that >>>gave a 2-d picture of sinusoidal additions. I always wanted >> >>You had to "program" it to set up time bases, traces, etc. >>Looking at the panel and only being familiar with the "classic" >>O-scope, I couldn't figure out what I needed to do just display >>a single trace with a free running trigger :-( The machines are >>getting smarter than I. This was at a customer site up in >>Calgary Canada a couple years ago and so I don't recall the >>manufacturer of the scope. > > The rule of thumb was to get the software out >of the way when trying to debug the hardware. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Oddly enough, I seem to spend time trying to talk to the peripherals to try and isolate hardware faults these days...if I tell it *this*, and it does *this* then *that* bit must be working... -- barnacle http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 19:27:17 GMT Message-ID: <944594837.14884.0.nnrp-11.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 944594837 nnrp-11:14884 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Marco S Hyman wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that >A scope where the input signal doesn't directly control the deflection >plates. The input signal is sampled at an A-to-D stage and stored >as bits in memory. The advantage is that a single sample can >be captured and displayed at various magnifications, etc. And the disadvantage is that it's a lot harder to use to it's limits, without a non-trivial understanding of it. With an analogue scope, if you see a trace, that's what was gotten, minus any frequency components much over the bandwidth of the scope. With a digital scope, things are more complex. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- What a wonderfull world it is that has girls in it! -- Robert A Heinlein. ###### From: hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 8 Dec 1999 09:16:52 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 37 Message-ID: <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawkins.cba.uni.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!EU.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uni.edu!not-for-mail In article <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that >gave a 2-d picture of sinusoidal additions. I always wanted >to know how use those. I got a chance for about 1-1/2 hours >in a EE lab; the lab, of course, was too short for my satisfaction. >I wanted to play with the scope (finally I was allowed to touch >one :-))), ask questions about how it worked (there were so many >dials and toggles, etc.) and then figure out if it really worked >like I was told. In my electronics class in the physics department, we ended up with a clueless EE master student teaching the lab. He got so excited when I set the oscillators for a pattern on the scope that he made me stop what I was doing, and everyone else come over to see. He was apparently unable to do it himself. The next year, I taught the lab. >Yea, most women...I mean, girls, got that message. Some of us >were just too stubborn to listen to the stupid male. (The >smart ones were eager to let the females know what they knew.) >Of course, the same thing happened when a female was in a >similar power position...so it wasn't sexist. The behaviour >was all about retaining one's power and letting rivals in. >What do they call that??? Territorial imperative? Ah-hah! That's why my wife & mother in law chase me out of the kitchn (it couldn't have anything to do with fires in microwaves . . .) rick -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (319) 266-7114 http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer. ###### From: hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 8 Dec 1999 09:31:33 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 26 Message-ID: <82ltkl$bgt$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawkins.cba.uni.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uni.edu!not-for-mail In article <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >I bought a couple of IBM XT's from a thrift store for $5 US each a while >back (sans monitors and keyboards). I gutted them and tossed the cases. >They have some nice 64k RAM chips that are useful for home-built computer >projects. And the power supplies will still put out 5 and 12 volts, so >that too is useful. I got an 8088 project book at a library sale for 50 >cents, so maybe I can make use of the CPU's too. Even the hard disks may >be intresting to experiment with. There was a popular electronics article, 1980 or so, to build a multi- tasking 8088 with a few chips. I assume the ROM listings were somewhere, but it used an 8088, rom, ram, and a couple of other chips, and had two serial ports. It ran BASIC for both users at the same time. Hmm, the more I think about this, I'll bet it was byte, and not PE. For that matter, I probably didn't get PE by then . . . rick -- Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq. hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (319) 266-7114 http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Wed, 08 Dec 99 11:20:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <82ljlh$o1v$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <944594837.14884.0.nnrp-11.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: QCFeyCfYXFEAEntYflxGmV/AHg6ZoOD7s7C088xSGqI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 1999 12:41:21 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d15 In article <944594837.14884.0.nnrp-11.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling wrote: >Marco S Hyman wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>> What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that > >>A scope where the input signal doesn't directly control the deflection >>plates. The input signal is sampled at an A-to-D stage and stored >>as bits in memory. The advantage is that a single sample can >>be captured and displayed at various magnifications, etc. > >And the disadvantage is that it's a lot harder to use to it's limits, >without a non-trivial understanding of it. >With an analogue scope, if you see a trace, that's what was gotten, >minus any frequency components much over the bandwidth of the scope. > >With a digital scope, things are more complex. I wouldn't say that; I'd say they were displaying complex enough. I remember guys finally finding that intermittent bugaboo by noticing a very fast BLIP that everyone else seemed to miss or assume as noise. I certainly don't see how a digital scope could help those who had that kind of art. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Thu, 09 Dec 99 12:34:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> X-Trace: v3tPoGa721DZKCUxXmSqKJhSp4L8IK2VxRmyc858MuA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 1999 13:54:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-154 In article <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu>, hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >>What do mean "digital" scope? I was used to the ones that >>gave a 2-d picture of sinusoidal additions. I always wanted >>to know how use those. I got a chance for about 1-1/2 hours >>in a EE lab; the lab, of course, was too short for my satisfaction. >>I wanted to play with the scope (finally I was allowed to touch >>one :-))), ask questions about how it worked (there were so many >>dials and toggles, etc.) and then figure out if it really worked >>like I was told. > >In my electronics class in the physics department, we ended up with >a clueless EE master student teaching the lab. He got so excited >when I set the oscillators for a pattern on the scope that he made >me stop what I was doing, and everyone else come over to see. He >was apparently unable to do it himself. Yup. Those lab classes did not teach how to use the device. There were all kinds of toggles, knobs, and dials that we were told "DO NOT TOUCH! THEY'VE BEEN SET FOR YOUR EXPERIMENT." Grrrrrr....I hated that. And no one would tell me who had done the setting up. > >The next year, I taught the lab. Soooo....how much do you charge? > >>Yea, most women...I mean, girls, got that message. Some of us >>were just too stubborn to listen to the stupid male. (The >>smart ones were eager to let the females know what they knew.) >>Of course, the same thing happened when a female was in a >>similar power position...so it wasn't sexist. The behaviour >>was all about retaining one's power and letting rivals in. >>What do they call that??? Territorial imperative? > >Ah-hah! That's why my wife & mother in law chase me out of the >kitchn (it couldn't have anything to do with fires in microwaves . . .) Nope, not the fires. It's the mess you didn't clean up and left for somebody else :-))). How do you make a fire in a microwave? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: h.nareid@nareid.demon.co.uk (Helge Nareid) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 22:36:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nareid.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: nareid.demon.co.uk:193.237.51.93 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 944778948 nnrp-04:26272 NO-IDENT nareid.demon.co.uk:193.237.51.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!nareid.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On Thu, 09 Dec 99 12:34:24 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu>, > hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>In my electronics class in the physics department, we ended up with >>a clueless EE master student teaching the lab. He got so excited >>when I set the oscillators for a pattern on the scope that he made >>me stop what I was doing, and everyone else come over to see. He >>was apparently unable to do it himself. I've been doing a fair bit of 1st year lab exercises over the years, and I firmly believe that one of the main principles for an instructor is to have respect for your students - and really _know_ what you're trying to teach them. One of the most fascinating thing about teaching the basics is that I look back at things I haven't even thought about since I was an undergrad myself, and review them in the light of experience - it provides an entirely new insight into the subject. Anyway - about a year back I was instructing a basic electronic lab, and was going through the basics of using an oscilloscope with a lab group - nothing particularly fancy, just efficient use of the various controls. After I finished, I looked behind me, and found the three other instructors looking over my shoulder to see what I was doing. It really infuriated me - they should know all these things, and also know how to convey that knowledge to the students. Also, they should have been attending the other students, and not wasting their time watching me demonstrating what should be old news to them. >Yup. Those lab classes did not teach how to use the device. >There were all kinds of toggles, knobs, and dials that we were >told "DO NOT TOUCH! THEY'VE BEEN SET FOR YOUR EXPERIMENT." >Grrrrrr....I hated that. And no one would tell me who had >done the setting up. Yes, on the other hand, I have been on the other side of that situation often enough that I can understand why it was done that way. Just think of an oscilloscope - it has all those fancy buttons and dials on it, but the main emphasis in a basic lab-course has to be on things like choosing an appropriate time-base and sensitivity range. I also try to explain trigger levels and suchlike to any student who seems to be able to absorb it, but the finer points really have to be left alone until the student has grasped the basics. That said - I also hate "black box" experiments, and any lab exercise where I have had anything to do with the design, doesn't have them! Also, the instructors should be able to explain any reasonable question from the students. The problem, of course, is that students can ask the most surprising questions... I always try to tell the students as much as they can absorb, but in some cases they do not have the background to understand all the finer points - and I am the person who has to tell them so... -- - Helge Nareid Nordmann i utlendighet, Aberdeen, Scotland ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Fri, 10 Dec 99 11:29:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 70 Message-ID: <82qstv$51p$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: nWjDn9mIcWZKHIOAO3cFxKRwZFWXLP6tgpthNbkiplY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1999 12:50:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-52 In article , h.nareid@nareid.demon.co.uk (Helge Nareid) wrote: >On Thu, 09 Dec 99 12:34:24 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu>, >> hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>>In my electronics class in the physics department, we ended up with >>>a clueless EE master student teaching the lab. He got so excited >>>when I set the oscillators for a pattern on the scope that he made >>>me stop what I was doing, and everyone else come over to see. He >>>was apparently unable to do it himself. > >I've been doing a fair bit of 1st year lab exercises over the years, and I >firmly believe that one of the main principles for an instructor is to >have respect for your students - and really _know_ what you're trying to >teach them. One of the most fascinating thing about teaching the basics is >that I look back at things I haven't even thought about since I was an >undergrad myself, and review them in the light of experience - it provides >an entirely new insight into the subject. > >Anyway - about a year back I was instructing a basic electronic lab, and >was going through the basics of using an oscilloscope with a lab group - >nothing particularly fancy, just efficient use of the various controls. >After I finished, I looked behind me, and found the three other >instructors looking over my shoulder to see what I was doing. It really >infuriated me - they should know all these things, and also know how to >convey that knowledge to the students. Also, they should have been >attending the other students, and not wasting their time watching me >demonstrating what should be old news to them. Whenever I taught, I taught everybody who would listen, even those who should have known better. Since I was teaching basics, quite a few experts had forgotten. > >>Yup. Those lab classes did not teach how to use the device. >>There were all kinds of toggles, knobs, and dials that we were >>told "DO NOT TOUCH! THEY'VE BEEN SET FOR YOUR EXPERIMENT." >>Grrrrrr....I hated that. And no one would tell me who had >>done the setting up. > >Yes, on the other hand, I have been on the other side of that situation >often enough that I can understand why it was done that way. Just think of >an oscilloscope - it has all those fancy buttons and dials on it, but the >main emphasis in a basic lab-course has to be on things like choosing an >appropriate time-base and sensitivity range. I also try to explain trigger >levels and suchlike to any student who seems to be able to absorb it, but >the finer points really have to be left alone until the student has >grasped the basics. > >That said - I also hate "black box" experiments, and any lab exercise >where I have had anything to do with the design, doesn't have them! Also, >the instructors should be able to explain any reasonable question from the >students. The problem, of course, is that students can ask the most >surprising questions... > >I always try to tell the students as much as they can absorb, but in some >cases they do not have the background to understand all the finer points - >and I am the person who has to tell them so... > The whole point of the labs at that level was to learn how to use the equipment. That was the aim of all my first year biology and chem classes and this goal should have been the aim of the EE and physics' classes. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82qstv$51p$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> Organization: Debian GNU/Linux site User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981002 ("Phobia") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8oa44.445$CA5.15622@typ11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: typ11.nn.bcandid.com 944845444 207.91.187.171 (Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:04:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:04:04 EST Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:04:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.flash.net!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!typ11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > The whole point of the labs at that level was to learn how to > use the equipment. That was the aim of all my first year > biology and chem classes and this goal should have been the > aim of the EE and physics' classes. It was my experience that first year (and to a lesser extent, second year) Physics didn't use the real stuff. In third year Physics, we had a class on how to conduct experiments (stuff like what IC technology to use depending on the speed that you needed) as well as the regular labs. -- Mike Swaim swaim@[207.91.187.171] or swaim at nol dot net Disclaimer: I've been known to respond randomly. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash From: kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:27:54 -0500 Message-ID: <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> Organization: The Vail-Starn Family X-Face: 5!tfUy?b,\Mh8up",rDEyx`86g9e1r2U^R4.E User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: vailstar.his.com X-Trace: 11 Dec 1999 00:27:54 -0500, vailstar.his.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!news4.his.com!kevin wrote: > How do you make a fire in a microwave? My boss at one job made microwave popcorn once. The package said DO NOT LEAVE IN MICROWAVE FOR LONGER THAN 6 MINUTES 15 SECONDS! He left it in 6 minutes and 20 seconds and it burst into flames. I have never actually started a fire in a microwave. But I have caused the smoke alarm to go off while cleaning up the kitchen after dinner (up until that point, assumed to be the one safe thing I could do in a kitchen!). -- Kevin Michael Vail | When people are going to a mountain, they should kevin@vailstar.com | forget the molehills. --Tenzing Norgay ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sat, 11 Dec 99 10:46:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <82tepn$8i2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com> X-Trace: Xi4V7aB3Urr/tqaZGRmKCe51b5smv6zrztP3zq8NNG8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 1999 12:07:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!peerbox.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-240 In article <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com>, kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) wrote: > wrote: > >> How do you make a fire in a microwave? > >My boss at one job made microwave popcorn once. The package said DO NOT >LEAVE IN MICROWAVE FOR LONGER THAN 6 MINUTES 15 SECONDS! He left it in >6 minutes and 20 seconds and it burst into flames. > >I have never actually started a fire in a microwave. But I have caused >the smoke alarm to go off while cleaning up the kitchen after dinner (up >until that point, assumed to be the one safe thing I could do in a >kitchen!). [puzzled emoticon here trying to figure out how one uses a fire to wash dishes]. I must confess that I thought about burning the dishes up so I'd never have to do them again (when I was my mother's slave, that is). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash From: kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:18:49 -0500 Message-ID: <1e2nggr.1l8n015u3v5cqN%kevin@vailstar.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com> <82tepn$8i2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> Organization: The Vail-Starn Family X-Face: 5!tfUy?b,\Mh8up",rDEyx`86g9e1r2U^R4.E User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: vailstar.his.com X-Trace: 11 Dec 1999 14:18:49 -0500, vailstar.his.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!peerbox.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!nntp.primenet.com.MISMATCH!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!news4.his.com!kevin wrote: > In article <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com>, > kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) wrote: > > wrote: > > > >> How do you make a fire in a microwave? > > > >My boss at one job made microwave popcorn once. The package said DO NOT > >LEAVE IN MICROWAVE FOR LONGER THAN 6 MINUTES 15 SECONDS! He left it in > >6 minutes and 20 seconds and it burst into flames. > > > >I have never actually started a fire in a microwave. But I have caused > >the smoke alarm to go off while cleaning up the kitchen after dinner (up > >until that point, assumed to be the one safe thing I could do in a > >kitchen!). > > [puzzled emoticon here trying to figure out how > one uses a fire to wash dishes]. I must confess that I > thought about burning the dishes up so I'd never have to > do them again (when I was my mother's slave, that is). It doesn't work. They buy more. :-) -- Kevin Michael Vail | When people are going to a mountain, they should kevin@vailstar.com | forget the molehills. --Tenzing Norgay ###### From: "No One" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:40:06 -0600 Organization: IBM Rochester MN Lines: 24 Message-ID: <82unke$12cm$1@news.rchland.ibm.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p111766.rchland.ibm.com X-Trace: news.rchland.ibm.com 944955854 35222 9.5.190.86 (11 Dec 1999 23:44:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.rchland.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 1999 23:44:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!an02.austin.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news!not-for-mail Charles Richmond wrote in message <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net>... >lwin wrote: >> > >So if you can *not* use the systems, at least salvage some of the parts. >That's better than letting the whole mess go to waste. > I've also found that old MFM and RLL hard drives are a great resource for hard to find smaller screws. One of my coworkers also used some old hard drive platters to make a couple of clocks. The shiny silver made a great clock face to offset the wood frame he built. Lots of othor things can be salvaged from old PCs;drive rails, spacers, jumpers, and even the odd connector or cable. A lot of the generic 286 clones used a standard AT form factor (lots didn't). My spare DOS and OS2 PC is an old P90 motherboard in an older Dell 286 case that's not too pretty, but runs like a champ. It makes a good spare machine for network Doom as well. :) Chris ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash From: bmarcum@iglou.com X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts9-54.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts9-54.iglou.com Message-ID: <3852fe85@news.iglou.com> Date: 11 Dec 1999 20:46:45 -0500 X-Trace: 11 Dec 1999 20:46:45 -0500, lou-ts9-54.iglou.com Organization: IgLou Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 11 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: news-incoming.iglou.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!dca1-feed3.news.digex.net!intermedia!news.iglou.com!lou-ts9-54.iglou.com On 1999-12-09 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: > Nope, not the fires. It's the mess you didn't clean up >and left for somebody else :-))). >How do you make a fire in a microwave? You can make sparks with a CD :) Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: John Teffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 03:01:29 +0000 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <38531002.C36C1B66@c4.net> References: <3852fe85@news.iglou.com> Reply-To: jdteffer@c4.net NNTP-Posting-Host: paperboy.c4.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net 944985693 46678 208.178.147.13 (12 Dec 1999 08:01:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@frontiernet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1999 08:01:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!news.frontiernet.net!paperboy.c4.net!56ras10.c4.net bmarcum@iglou.com wrote: > > On 1999-12-09 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: > > Nope, not the fires. It's the mess you didn't clean up > >and left for somebody else :-))). > >How do you make a fire in a microwave? > You can make sparks with a CD :) And plastic foil candy wrappers are even better, since they spark AND burst into flames, then when you panic and try to pull them out you get burning plasticy foily goo on your fingers. Not speaking from personal experience or anything. :) ###### From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 15 Message-ID: <82vinr$af1$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:16:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.194.64.240 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:16:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news0.optus.net.au!not-for-mail h.nareid@nareid.demon.co.uk (Helge Nareid) writes: >I always try to tell the students as much as they can absorb, but in some >cases they do not have the background to understand all the finer points - >and I am the person who has to tell them so... What seems to work well for me is "Currently, that's just magic. You'll understand in a year and a half". Oh, and of course, if time and setting permit, actually explaining it to the students who *do* have the background. Bernie -- Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it George Santayana Spanish-born philosopher, 1863-1962 ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sun, 12 Dec 99 09:40:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <82vvad$p45$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com> <82tepn$8i2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <1e2nggr.1l8n015u3v5cqN%kevin@vailstar.com> X-Trace: X1o/zG8tixSuoA4217QtD/oL10Yo96GGAz9DuyexT7E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1999 11:01:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-3 In article <1e2nggr.1l8n015u3v5cqN%kevin@vailstar.com>, kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) wrote: > wrote: > >> In article <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com>, >> kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) wrote: >> > wrote: >> > >> >> How do you make a fire in a microwave? >> > >> >My boss at one job made microwave popcorn once. The package said DO NOT >> >LEAVE IN MICROWAVE FOR LONGER THAN 6 MINUTES 15 SECONDS! He left it in >> >6 minutes and 20 seconds and it burst into flames. >> > >> >I have never actually started a fire in a microwave. But I have caused >> >the smoke alarm to go off while cleaning up the kitchen after dinner (up >> >until that point, assumed to be the one safe thing I could do in a >> >kitchen!). >> >> [puzzled emoticon here trying to figure out how >> one uses a fire to wash dishes]. I must confess that I >> thought about burning the dishes up so I'd never have to >> do them again (when I was my mother's slave, that is). > >It doesn't work. They buy more. > >:-) You actually dared to do the test? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash From: kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:51:18 -0500 Message-ID: <1e2p2g7.1t01gi11buhmoqN%kevin@vailstar.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82c5qg$1n6@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com> <82tepn$8i2$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <1e2nggr.1l8n015u3v5cqN%kevin@vailstar.com> <82vvad$p45$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> Organization: The Vail-Starn Family X-Face: 5!tfUy?b,\Mh8up",rDEyx`86g9e1r2U^R4.E User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: vailstar.his.com X-Trace: 12 Dec 1999 15:51:17 -0500, vailstar.his.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gctr.net!news4.his.com!kevin wrote: > In article <1e2nggr.1l8n015u3v5cqN%kevin@vailstar.com>, > kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) wrote: > > wrote: > > > >> In article <1e2mdd8.1p31v0q1b0npmoN%kevin@vailstar.com>, > >> kevin@vailstar.com (Kevin Michael Vail) wrote: > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> How do you make a fire in a microwave? > >> > > >> >My boss at one job made microwave popcorn once. The package said DO > NOT > >> >LEAVE IN MICROWAVE FOR LONGER THAN 6 MINUTES 15 SECONDS! He left it in > >> >6 minutes and 20 seconds and it burst into flames. > >> > > >> >I have never actually started a fire in a microwave. But I have caused > >> >the smoke alarm to go off while cleaning up the kitchen after dinner > (up > >> >until that point, assumed to be the one safe thing I could do in a > >> >kitchen!). > >> > >> [puzzled emoticon here trying to figure out how > >> one uses a fire to wash dishes]. I must confess that I > >> thought about burning the dishes up so I'd never have to > >> do them again (when I was my mother's slave, that is). > > > >It doesn't work. They buy more. > > > >:-) > > You actually dared to do the test? Well, not *intentionally*... Some of us just shouldn't be let away from our keyboards. :-) -- Kevin Michael Vail | When people are going to a mountain, they should kevin@vailstar.com | forget the molehills. --Tenzing Norgay ###### From: diskette@shell2.fdn.com (STD DIALUP) Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net> <82unke$12cm$1@news.rchland.ibm.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 8 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:30:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.199.0.138 X-Trace: news1.atlantic.net 945459019 216.199.0.138 (Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:30:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:30:19 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.nerdc.ufl.edu!news1.atlantic.net!shell2!diskette No One (nobody@nowhere.com) wrote: : I've also found that old MFM and RLL hard drives are a great resource : for hard to find smaller screws. One of my coworkers also used some : old hard drive platters to make a couple of clocks. The shiny silver made : a great clock face to offset the wood frame he built. The magnets come in handy too. ###### From: "Ag@Whd" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:42:06 +0000 Organization: White Horse Design Reply-To: whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: man-a067.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 945520906 158 194.247.44.67 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail On 4 Dec 1999 21:39:53 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) scribbled these words: >Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out >an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there >was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. > >Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an >essentially worthless piece of trash. > >I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have >no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which >I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which >are seriously obsolete by today's standards? We have one (running) just for historical interest - it amuses our customers no end to see it in the office! Adrian WWW WWW Adrian Gothard WWW ww WWW White Horse Design WWWWWWWWWW WWWW WWWW rot13 to reply: juq@mrgarg.pb.hx --- Designers of GPS-based satellite tracking systems for vehicles ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:26:46 GMT Message-ID: <945624406.21013.0.nnrp-09.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <384BCD38.561F98EC@plano.net> <82unke$12cm$1@news.rchland.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 945624406 nnrp-09:21013 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root STD DIALUP wrote: >No One (nobody@nowhere.com) wrote: >: I've also found that old MFM and RLL hard drives are a great resource >: for hard to find smaller screws. One of my coworkers also used some >: old hard drive platters to make a couple of clocks. The shiny silver made >: a great clock face to offset the wood frame he built. >The magnets come in handy too. And the voice coil actuators can be used to make all sorts of fun things. I've also found that substantial amounts of power can be gotten from the hub motors, for example, from a PCMCIA drive, spun at 10Krpm 4-5W -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "The device every conquerer, yes, every altruistic liberator should be required to wear on his shield... is a little girl and her kitten, at ground zero" - Sir Dominic Flandry in Poul Andersons 'A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows' ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park FL Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:42:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.16.49 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 945721322 157.238.16.49 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:22:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:22:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!bilver.wjv.com!bill In article , Ag@Whd wrote: >On 4 Dec 1999 21:39:53 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) scribbled >these words: >>Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out >>an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there >>was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. >>Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an >>essentially worthless piece of trash. Let's see. My first PC cost me $1385 - for the case with 64K of memory. Video Card (color) about under $500, 12" color monitor was about $500. Multifunction base card that handled two floppy drives was $250. A serial port and a parallel port for that card were each $80. I got a deal on a floppy drive at only $245. Certainly a lot more than $2000. The power-users were installing Mountain 5MB 5.25" hard drives for $2500 in an external case. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### From: Juergen Nickelsen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 24 Dec 1999 19:20:45 +0100 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 20 Sender: nickel@goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip16.berlin63.pub-ip.de.psi.net X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.tli.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de!nobody jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: [scopes] > Yup. Those lab classes did not teach how to use the device. > There were all kinds of toggles, knobs, and dials that we were > told "DO NOT TOUCH! THEY'VE BEEN SET FOR YOUR EXPERIMENT." > Grrrrrr....I hated that. Weird... when I had my lab classes in first semester EE, the first things we learned was how to handle the meter and the scope. That included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) Even though I left EE after a few unsuccessful years, I still rather use an electromechanical meter of the old kind than one of the new, flashy digital ones. It simply feels better. (And yes, count me in on the neo-luddites in general. :-) -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sat, 25 Dec 99 11:41:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: hiiNx57LBZ9i/4Rz5FNh2/FNcf/YztFKm7AFnZXvC3M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Dec 1999 13:04:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-32 In article , Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >[scopes] >> Yup. Those lab classes did not teach how to use the device. >> There were all kinds of toggles, knobs, and dials that we were >> told "DO NOT TOUCH! THEY'VE BEEN SET FOR YOUR EXPERIMENT." >> Grrrrrr....I hated that. > >Weird... when I had my lab classes in first semester EE, the first >things we learned was how to handle the meter and the scope. I think the guy didn't know how and that's why he said "Don't touch. > That >included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the >instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) But it was probably the most important part to learn. > >Even though I left EE after a few unsuccessful years, I still rather >use an electromechanical meter of the old kind than one of the new, >flashy digital ones. It simply feels better. (And yes, count me in >on the neo-luddites in general. :-) Whenever I was in a lab, I wanted to collect the raw data and do the analysis. I didn't want the measuring device to do the analysis for me. If and when I became more experienced, I might welcome the intermediate analysis. However, the labs were to learn the basic science of measurement. Having some of the analysis done invisibly for me was not my idea of learning the basic theories. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: fabioborborinixxxx@mailcity.com (fabio borborini) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:02:11 GMT Message-ID: <3864b1c1.2003140@news.dada.it> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.243.125.51 X-Trace: 25 Dec 1999 13:02:57 +0100, 194.243.125.51 Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!news.dada.it!194.243.125.51 On 24 Dec 1999 19:20:45 +0100, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >[scopes] >> Yup. Those lab classes did not teach how to use the device. >> There were all kinds of toggles, knobs, and dials that we were >> told "DO NOT TOUCH! THEY'VE BEEN SET FOR YOUR EXPERIMENT." >> Grrrrrr....I hated that. > >Weird... when I had my lab classes in first semester EE, the first >things we learned was how to handle the meter and the scope. That >included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the >instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) > >Even though I left EE after a few unsuccessful years, I still rather >use an electromechanical meter of the old kind than one of the new, >flashy digital ones. It simply feels better. (And yes, count me in >on the neo-luddites in general. :-) hey....you're not alone,sometimes electromechanicals are just the tool! Merry Christmas to you, and all of you of the NG. ciao,fabio >Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: Juergen Nickelsen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 28 Dec 1999 01:31:59 +0100 Organization: Private site running FreeBSD Lines: 15 Sender: nickel@goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: n65-247.berlin.snafu.de X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de!nobody jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > Juergen Nickelsen wrote: [...] > > That > >included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the > >instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) > > But it was probably the most important part to learn. Sure it was. I still know the basics of it, and I'm glad I do. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Wed, 29 Dec 99 10:52:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <84cu28$o2u$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: 7D22bZOz2rvMAdyqO7aoXVMpJBp/q+Jon93H/0Ait7g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 1999 12:16:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-59 In article , Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article , >> Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >[...] >> > That >> >included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the >> >instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) >> >> But it was probably the most important part to learn. > >Sure it was. I still know the basics of it, and I'm glad I do. > Good. The classes I took in the mid 80s included the notion but didn't emphasize the actual computations in the lab. Really a bad idea and I couldn't get the TA to acknowledge it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <84cu28$o2u$6@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Debian GNU/Linux site User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981002 ("Phobia") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 946484632 207.91.187.171 (Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:23:52 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:23:52 MST Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:23:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.msen.com!206.132.58.120.MISMATCH!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >>> In article , >>> Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >>> > That >>> >included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the >>> >instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) >>> But it was probably the most important part to learn. >> >>Sure it was. I still know the basics of it, and I'm glad I do. >> > Good. The classes I took in the mid 80s included the notion > but didn't emphasize the actual computations in the lab. Really > a bad idea and I couldn't get the TA to acknowledge it. Part of my worst lab experience in college involved realizing that one of my error propagation equations was horribly wrong at 5 AM on the last day of finals. I had to wait for one of the upperclassmen to get up, and give me the correct formula. (Other parts I didn't like involved being on the roof of a building 5 hours at a time, in the middle of the night, and 4 weeks straight of just enough cloud cover to screw up data collection.) -- Mike Swaim swaim@[207.91.187.171] or swaim at nol dot net Disclaimer: I've been known to respond randomly. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 29 Dec 1999 17:37:02 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <84dgru$g69@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Ag@Whd wrote: : On 4 Dec 1999 21:39:53 GMT, lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) scribbled these : words: : >Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out : >an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there : >was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. : > : >Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an : >essentially worthless piece of trash. : > : >I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have : >no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which : >I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which : >are seriously obsolete by today's standards? : We have one (running) just for historical interest - it amuses our : customers no end to see it in the office! The only reason I have one is for the NASA sticker, as I got it from a USG auction eons ago. I understand that they remove those stickers these days when dumping early Pentiums and 486s. Eric ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Fri, 31 Dec 99 11:29:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <84i906$b6i$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <84cu28$o2u$6@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: bclCqtvtDSAEGGu5XARUbI6OnP+lu05Q/7fhlg7ieks= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 1999 12:53:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-203 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47025 In article , Mike Swaim wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> In article , >> Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>> >>>> In article , >>>> Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >>>> > That >>>> >included, of course, calculating the error introduced by the >>>> >instrument etc. (I hated *that* part!) >>>> But it was probably the most important part to learn. >>> >>>Sure it was. I still know the basics of it, and I'm glad I do. >>> >> Good. The classes I took in the mid 80s included the notion >> but didn't emphasize the actual computations in the lab. Really >> a bad idea and I couldn't get the TA to acknowledge it. > > Part of my worst lab experience in college involved realizing that one >of my error propagation equations was horribly wrong at 5 AM on the last >day of finals. I had to wait for one of the upperclassmen to get up, and >give me the correct formula. > (Other parts I didn't like involved being on the roof of a building 5 >hours at a time, in the middle of the night, and 4 weeks straight of just >enough cloud cover to screw up data collection.) > Oh, I would have done just about anything for 5 hour lab times. My plan was to be a researcher when I grew up :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <84cu28$o2u$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <84i906$b6i$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Debian GNU/Linux site User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981002 ("Phobia") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 946737296 207.91.187.171 (Sat, 01 Jan 2000 07:34:56 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 07:34:56 MST Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 14:34:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:46999 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Mike Swaim wrote: >> (Other parts I didn't like involved being on the roof of a building 5 >>hours at a time, in the middle of the night, and 4 weeks straight of just >>enough cloud cover to screw up data collection.) >> > Oh, I would have done just about anything for 5 hour lab times. > My plan was to be a researcher when I grew up :-). 5 hours at a time in a lab usually isn't bad. 5 hours on the roof of a building, at night, in winter is. -- Mike Swaim swaim@[207.91.187.171] or swaim at nol dot net Disclaimer: I've been known to respond randomly. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <82dmsv$e3q$2@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82g9f1$r06$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <82lsp4$bf5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <82ocbi$3ss$3@autumn.news.rcn.net> <842fcs$o6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <84cu28$o2u$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <84i906$b6i$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Debian GNU/Linux site User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981002 ("Phobia") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 946737296 207.91.187.171 (Sat, 01 Jan 2000 07:34:56 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 07:34:56 MST Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 14:34:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:47079 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Mike Swaim wrote: >> (Other parts I didn't like involved being on the roof of a building 5 >>hours at a time, in the middle of the night, and 4 weeks straight of just >>enough cloud cover to screw up data collection.) >> > Oh, I would have done just about anything for 5 hour lab times. > My plan was to be a researcher when I grew up :-). 5 hours at a time in a lab usually isn't bad. 5 hours on the roof of a building, at night, in winter is. -- Mike Swaim swaim@[207.91.187.171] or swaim at nol dot net Disclaimer: I've been known to respond randomly. ###### From: jonathan@canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 21 Jan 2000 10:57:55 GMT Organization: Canada Connect Corp. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: the-gimp.canuck.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!hp-corv.cv.hp.com!news.planetc.com!cleavage.canuck.com!the-gimp!jonathan Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48407 lwin (lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com) wrote: : Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out : an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there : was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. Am I the only one who thinks it funny to hear 5" floppies described as "big"? : Amazing how something that cost $1,500-$2,000 when new is now an : essentially worthless piece of trash. That's nothing. The larger the machine, the harder the devaluation. I've held for years a rule of thumb that in the time it takes for a PC to devalue by an order of magnitude, a workstation drops in value *two* orders of magnitude. We won't start talking about mainframes. : I debated for a moment to take it in, but then I realized it'd have : no value to me. Even assuming it was in a good working order (which : I doubted), what I could do with the internal components, all of which : are seriously obsolete by today's standards? Not much, though we've just brought to market a new board the design of which required grovelling in a lot of old PC hardware, specifically MDA displays, which most people laughingly dismiss as useless (or is that "dismiss as laughingly useless"?). Sometimes you might be surprised... Jonathan ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:13:12 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 32 Message-ID: <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: timaxp.trailing-edge.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ffx2nh5.news.uu.net 948478393 22074 63.73.218.130 (21 Jan 2000 18:13:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2000 18:13:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc05.blue.aol.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!ffx2nh5!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48406 Mike Swaim wrote: > > Victor the Cleaner wrote: > > lwin (lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com) wrote: > > : Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out > > : an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there > > : was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. > > > Am I the only one who thinks it funny to hear 5" floppies described > > as "big"? > > They're probably full height drives. In which case, half height drives > would be small 5 1/4" drives. I have a "big" 3 1/2" inch drive that's as > big as a small 5 1/4" drive. Those are *all* small :-). "Normal-sized" is 8" for floppies and 14" for hard drives. Unless you've been in the industry longer than me and remember 20+" hard drives and Bryant drums... I've got a Fuji 2351A (a 10.5" disk, 140-pound or so hard drive that stores 350 or 400 Megabytes) manual here titled: "Fujitsu M2351A/M2351AF Mini Disk Drive". (The "AF" variant was the one with fixed heads.) And yes, we've still got a couple of these drives spinning on machines here. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 948476766 207.91.187.171 (Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:46:06 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:46:06 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:46:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.120!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48436 Victor the Cleaner wrote: > lwin (lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com) wrote: > : Last night, while taking out the trash, I saw that someone put out > : an IBM PC computer with the two big floppy drives. I think there > : was also an old Zenith out there too. CGA monitors. > Am I the only one who thinks it funny to hear 5" floppies described > as "big"? They're probably full height drives. In which case, half height drives would be small 5 1/4" drives. I have a "big" 3 1/2" inch drive that's as big as a small 5 1/4" drive. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 21 Jan 00 13:09:57 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <1218.55T2887T7896476@sky.bus.com> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-465.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48491 In article <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: >Mike Swaim wrote: > >> They're probably full height drives. In which case, half height >> drives would be small 5 1/4" drives. I have a "big" 3 1/2" inch >> drive that's as big as a small 5 1/4" drive. Is it a "real" big drive? It must be really old. I'm thinking of the normal-sized 3 1/2-inch drives that fake it by being mounted in a frame that fits a half-height 5 1/4-inch bay. >Those are *all* small :-). "Normal-sized" is 8" for floppies and >14" for hard drives. Unless you've been in the industry longer >than me and remember 20+" hard drives and Bryant drums... > >I've got a Fuji 2351A (a 10.5" disk, 140-pound or so hard drive >that stores 350 or 400 Megabytes) manual here titled: > > "Fujitsu M2351A/M2351AF Mini Disk Drive". > >(The "AF" variant was the one with fixed heads.) And yes, we've still >got a couple of these drives spinning on machines here. Yes, I'd think of 10 1/2 inches as "mini" in that context. After all, most removable packs (IBM 2314 or 3330, for instance) had 14-inch platters. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 948488515 207.91.187.171 (Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:01:55 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:01:55 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:01:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48519 Tim Shoppa wrote: > Mike Swaim wrote: >> Victor the Cleaner wrote: >> > Am I the only one who thinks it funny to hear 5" floppies described >> > as "big"? >> >> They're probably full height drives. In which case, half height drives >> would be small 5 1/4" drives. I have a "big" 3 1/2" inch drive that's as >> big as a small 5 1/4" drive. > Those are *all* small :-). "Normal-sized" is 8" for floppies and > 14" for hard drives. I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure reference.) In any case, most of the floppy drives I'm familiar with (including 8" drives) come in 2 sizes. Full height(width)/half height for 8" and 5 1/4" drives, and half height/small for the 3 1/2" drives. I don't believe that there is a normal size for hard disks. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:09:06 -0500 Organization: Communications Accessibles Montreal, Quebec Canada Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-1043.hip.cam.org Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!198.168.100.2!altitude!dialup-1043.hip.cam.org!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48526 In article <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com>, Mike Swaim wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Mike Swaim wrote: > >> Victor the Cleaner wrote: > >> > Am I the only one who thinks it funny to hear 5" floppies described > >> > as "big"? > >> > >> They're probably full height drives. In which case, half height drives > >> would be small 5 1/4" drives. I have a "big" 3 1/2" inch drive that's as > >> big as a small 5 1/4" drive. > > > Those are *all* small :-). "Normal-sized" is 8" for floppies and > > 14" for hard drives. > > I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure > reference.) In any case, most of the floppy drives I'm familiar with > (including 8" drives) come in 2 sizes. Full height(width)/half height for > 8" and 5 1/4" drives, and half height/small for the 3 1/2" drives. > I don't believe that there is a normal size for hard disks. > Calling 8" drives "Jumbo" is retroactive. I don't believe there was anything to compare them to when they came out, so they might have been bulky, but comparatively large. It's only when smaller drives showed up on the market that 8" became "big". For someone who was around when 8" drives were the only thing, anything that came after could only be considered small. Using "Jumbo" is like what they had to do when higher density floppies arrived on the scene. As far as I know, they were just formatted, but once double-density came along, the old ones suddenly needed a name, ie single density. And of course, later, I've seen the term "low density" used to refer to a format that was once higher than anything that came before. Things look further away looking to the future than if you look to the past. Saving programs on cassette was fine with me, right up until the time I got a floppy drive. And a floppy drive was fine with me, indeed I didn't get a hard drive utnil 1994, until I did get a hard drive. Whenever I moved a step forward, that was when the old became too slow or whatever. Michael ###### From: "Henry Churchyard" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 22 Jan 2000 14:00:27 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Lines: 23 Message-ID: <86d28r$47i@moe.cc.utexas.edu> References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: moe.cc.utexas.edu X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 948571229 19803 128.83.42.2 (22 Jan 2000 20:00:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cc.utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2000 20:00:29 GMT X-Face: #O!B,S1Ez(T##W$f`}BIPR<(7B_Kb*R^`A]0!UTex^Vz&bKso8|LZKD1ZGGKl%(K%.H`& zY:olOCo^cwkY-twSfiB%Tj9ZH_|z|P*AMq=9s{B8R}:rzJLZRIYC@Q@b>UH\L.NNy*Q X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!moe.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48550 In article , Michael Black wrote: > Things look further away looking to the future than if you look to > the past. Saving programs on cassette was fine with me, right up > until the time I got a floppy drive. And a floppy drive was fine > with me, indeed I didn't get a hard drive utnil 1994, until I did > get a hard drive. Whenever I moved a step forward, that was when > the old became too slow or whatever. In the late 80's I was using an original 4.77 Mhz true-blue IBM PC; it didn't seem all that slow to me originally, but after I moved up to a blazingly fast 12 Mhz 286 with EGA display, I noticed when I went back to the 8088 that just scrolling the screen with the CGA display now seemed very very slow (i.e. if you did a DOS "DIR" command in a directory with more than 25 files, you could almost see the screen scrolling up line by individual line, even after I retrofitted the system with a Microsoft "Mach 10" card with 10 Mhz 8086 processor -- I guess the accelerator card coudn't do much about the CGA required refresh intervals...) -- Henry Churchyard churchh@usa.net http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/ ###### Sender: James Campbell Andrew From: James Campbell Andrew Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.10 (i586)) Message-ID: Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:21:16 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.102.201.190 X-Complaints-To: news@u-net.net X-Trace: newsr2.u-net.net 948640993 195.102.201.190 (Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:23:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:23:13 GMT Organization: (Posted via) U-NET Internet Ltd. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.xtml.co.uk!peernews.manap.net!peer.news.bb.u-net.net!u-net!newsr2.u-net.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48649 > I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure > reference.) Would that have any reference to Elephant disks? As I recall they were a fairly well known brand where 8" drives were concerned. Jim -- jim@october.u-net.com | 'Windows' was detected http://www.october.u-net.com | on your hard drive. | Remove? | [ YES ] [[ HELL YES ]] ###### From: dowe@78.los-angeles-14.ca.dial-access.att.net (Dowe Keller) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: 24 Jan 2000 02:01:25 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.64.132.78 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 948679285 14777 12.64.132.78 (24 Jan 2000 02:01:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2000 02:01:25 GMT X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48686 James Campbell Andrew wrote: >> I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure >> reference.) > >Would that have any reference to Elephant disks? >As I recall they were a fairly well known brand >where 8" drives were concerned. > >Jim Yea, but IIRC Elephant made minidiskettes (5.25" for you kiddies who were raised on 3.5ers) too. I'm pretty sure that by "Jumbo" he merely means bigger than minidiskettes. Its hard for me to grasp that there are "grown-ups" out there who can't remember a time when 5.25 diskettes were considered little. Dowe Keller dowe@worldnet.att.net http://home.att.net/~dowe --- I do not want it in my news feed, I do not want it in the mail I read, I do not like Viagra Spam ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990413 ("Endemoniada") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.2-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.91.187.171 X-Trace: tw11.nn.bcandid.com 948681239 207.91.187.171 (Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:33:59 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:33:59 MST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:34:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.flash.net!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!tw11.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48681 James Campbell Andrew wrote: >> I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure >> reference.) > Would that have any reference to Elephant disks? > As I recall they were a fairly well known brand where 8" drives were > concerned. Yup. That was their name for their 8" disks. -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim at nol * net Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: Karel Hladky Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:09:33 +0000 Organization: KH Design & Development Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-107.irdium.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 948727071 19166 62.136.38.107 (24 Jan 2000 15:17:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2000 15:17:51 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <9N7PQ8tQbn2WsFQZ32qt1br3dd> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!khdesign.co.uk!khladky Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48640 In article <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com>, Mike Swaim writes > I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure >reference.) In any case, most of the floppy drives I'm familiar with >(including 8" drives) come in 2 sizes. Full height(width)/half height for >8" and 5 1/4" drives, and half height/small for the 3 1/2" drives. So you never had 3" drives which came out at about the same time as 3 1/2" but never caught on ? And of course original 5 1/4" drives had head loading solenoids whereas the later cheapo models just loaded the head all the time the disk was in the drive. Useless for data logging as the head tended to stick to the disk if moisture got in. Karel -- ++++++++++++++++++ KH Design & Development ++++++++++++++++++ Electrochemical Corrosion Measurement and Control Consultancy http://www.khdesign.co.uk ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM PC in trash Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:18:17 -0500 Organization: Communications Accessibles Montreal, Quebec Canada Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <82c1n9$dvr@netaxs.com> <869e3j$o47$2@cleavage.canuck.com> <38885B68.3B93D963@trailing-edge.com> <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-1073.hip.cam.org Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!198.168.100.2!altitude!dialup-1073.hip.cam.org!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:48704 In article , Karel Hladky wrote: > In article <7P3i4.18819$pb2.1557343@tw11.nn.bcandid.com>, Mike Swaim > writes > > I consider 8" floppies "Jumbos". (Now there's a fairly obscure > >reference.) In any case, most of the floppy drives I'm familiar with > >(including 8" drives) come in 2 sizes. Full height(width)/half height for > >8" and 5 1/4" drives, and half height/small for the 3 1/2" drives. > > So you never had 3" drives which came out at about the same time as 3 1/2" > but never caught on ? > I thought there was more than one format in the running before "smaller than 5.25 " became standardized. The local surplus store had some 3" disks a few years ago, and for all I know might still have them. Those were like 5.25" or even 8", in that they really did flop, having a flexible covering. But the ones I saw had a hub like 3.5" disks have today. It's been so long, and none went far before 3.5" dominated, but I thought there were other variations. Michael