From: nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT
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On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)

Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)


<N/>
-- 
  you have been evaluated.  you have a negative reference count.  prepare
  to be garbage collected.  persistence is futile.
	-- Erik Naggum

######

From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:18:28 -0500
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nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:

} On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
} > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
} 
} Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
} like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
} have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)

Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened.  No
visual display, no command versus insert modes.. [ 'inserting' text was
done by a command: i<texttoinseer>[escape] ].  As a rule, teco commands
were one or two letters long and embedded a complete programming syntax
into that [and so you could write loops... I'm not sure I remember it all
but it was something like ;(<condition>:<comandstoexecuteintheloop>;)... I
could try to find my old TECO manuals [these from the PDP-1].  For a very
long time, the paper-tape origins of TECO were still visible in 'Y' [the
command to read in a chunk of text, from 'yank'] and 'P' [the command to
write out a chunk of text and clear the buffer, from 'punch']

Emacs arose out of the ITS Teco [was it still on the PDP-6 at that point or
was it already the -10?].  What was added to TECO was real-time-mode: you
could assign a macro to a *KEY* and when that key was pressed, if it had a
macro assigned it'd execute it.  Those were the "editor macros", later
EMACS.  And in the first versions [gaud they were awful to play with...
:o)] it really was an almost unreadable assemblage of complicated TECO
macros bound to keys.  The reason why EMACS has the 'meta' kludgery is
because the folks at MIT who cobbled this together were using fancy
terminals with lots of extra 'flag' keys [one of which was 'meta'.  another
was 'control', and in the original emacs control-capital-A was different
from control-lowercase-A [one had the control-and-shift bits set along with
'A', the other had only the control-bit set --- that world used nine-bit
characters, four to a word on the 36-bit PDP-6/10].  And so meta-X wasn't
the strange PITA it was for us ASCII/VT100 folk --- for the MIT folk it was
just 'hold down the meta key and hit X'.

 /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com            Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

######

From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:53:55 -0400
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Bernie Cosell wrote:
> 
> nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
> 
> } On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
> } > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
> }
> } Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
> } like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
> } have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
> 
> Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
> wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
> And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened.

I'm only familiar with the DEC TECO's, and on these you hit double
<ESCAPE> or double <ALTMODE> to actually execute the command.  Which
versions of TECO used <ENTER> as the command terminator?

Tim.

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:00:02 -0700
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On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan
Krishnaswami) wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>
>Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>
><N/>

The code was designed to look like noisy lines! 
It had all the "new" structured programming constructs, and was
more like APL, in that each (normal ASCII) character was a
command, but like C, most TECO commands tested or consumed input
and generated output, returned a result or both. 

But yes, in the days when ttys were metal, modems were 110bps and
the size of a suitcase (to protect the telephone network), and
the lines were so crappy, it was hard to get a readable program
printout online (print at datacentre and mail to user was usual
method), you could do TECO commands in a second, and rattle  off
programs in a few seconds. 

My first real TECO hack was on a PDP-10 running TENEX, to
generate a list of the dates of all the Saturdays in a five year
period. This was needed to reschedule a large international ship
refit project, where one contractor decided they had to work six
day weeks to meet their deadlines, so all the other contractors
had to be given "holidays" every Saturday, for the duration of
the project. 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: Paul Jarc <prj@po.cwru.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 30 Nov 1999 13:31:06 -0500
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seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes:
> Cue the obligatory "vi doesn't have modes, it has commands with long
> arguments" debate.  It's nonsense; "in the process of providing the argument
> to any of several commands with a common structure for how they take their
> argument" is a mode.

Conversely, emacs is modal: enter command mode with M-x or M-: ;
return to input mode with C-g or RET. :)


paul

######

From: Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.com>
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
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Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> It wasn't screen-oriented at all.  You typed a command, and
> *something* happened to the file.  Sort of like ed, but with
> immeasurably more power, and far more cryptic.  I never learned it
> myself...  I knew a guy who wrote a BASIC to FORTRAN translator in
> TECO.  

I've certaily seen a simple FORTRAN to ADA-83 translator done in TECO. 
(Well, it would translate simple control-law implementations in Fortran and
turn them into equally simple Ada).

Scared the hell out of me, particularly as the output was used in a number
of "safety-related" applications.

pete
-- 
pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" (HMHB)

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen)
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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In article <lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> writes:
> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan
> Krishnaswami) wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>>> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>>
>>Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>>like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>>have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>>
>><N/>
> 
> The code was designed to look like noisy lines! 

Joking aside, is anyone really afficted by noisy lines ?
I use TECO daily and have not had such a problem in years.
TECO may not have changed much but the hardware has gotten
better so line noise should not affect use of TECO (or lesser
editors, for that matter).

Larry Kilgallen

######

From: dowe@localhost.localdomain (Dowe Keller)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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On 30 Nov 1999 07:50:45 GMT, Natarajan Krishnaswami <nxk3@po.cwru.edu> wrote:

[snip]

>> Cue the obligatory "vi doesn't have modes, it has commands with long
>> arguments" debate.  
>
>I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
>

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Taquemata.

######

Sender: meissner@tiktok.cygnus.com
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Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) writes:

> Joking aside, is anyone really afficted by noisy lines ?

Well nowadays if you are still using a modem, it has error correction builtin.
I certainly had problems on some days in North Carolina 10-14 years ago using a
2400 baud Multitech modem....  And the editor I probably was using in those
days was possibly SPEED, Data General's reimplementation of TECO with all of
the command letters changed for good measure, and I do remember having to
retype stuff.

-- 
Michael Meissner, Cygnus Solutions
PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886
email: meissner@cygnus.com	phone: 978-486-9304	fax: 978-692-4482

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 02:02:22 -0700
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On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:00:43 GMT, kilgallen@eisner.decus.org
(Larry Kilgallen) wrote:

>In article <lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> writes:
>> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan
>> Krishnaswami) wrote:
>> 
>>>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>>>> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>>>
>>>Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>>>like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>>>have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>>>
>>><N/>
>> 
>> The code was designed to look like noisy lines! 
>
>Joking aside, is anyone really afficted by noisy lines ?
>I use TECO daily and have not had such a problem in years.
>TECO may not have changed much but the hardware has gotten
>better so line noise should not affect use of TECO (or lesser
>editors, for that matter).
>
>Larry Kilgallen

We are all afflicted with noisy lines. My modem speed varies from
40-48Kbps in a city -- never seen 56Kbps (I live in Canada --
it's allowed -- no FCC!)
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:08:26 +0100
Organization: Net Insight AB
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Tim Shoppa wrote:
> 
> Bernie Cosell wrote:
> >
> > nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
> >
> > } On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
> > } > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
> > }
> > } Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
> > } like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
> > } have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
> >
> > Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
> > wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
> > And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened.
> 
> I'm only familiar with the DEC TECO's, and on these you hit double
> <ESCAPE> or double <ALTMODE> to actually execute the command.  Which
> versions of TECO used <ENTER> as the command terminator?

MIT TECO also used <ESC><ESC> as a command terminator. No TECO I've
heard
of (is there any other?) used <CR>.

But apart from that, I'm not sure what is meant by a "modal" editor. Are
we
talking about the vi behavious where you switch between insert and
command mode?

If so, I guess you might call TECO mode-oriented, as there was a
specific
insert command, but one cannot really map any modern editors on how
TECO does things.

Oh, and by the way, MIT TECO was screen oriented, sort of. DEC TECO
never
got that far, but you can play with screens in DEC TECO as well.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist             |  johnny.billquist@netinsight.net
Net Insight AB               |  phone:  +46 8 685 04 88
Västberga Allé 9             |  fax:    +46 8 685 04 20
Box 42093                    |
SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden  |  http://www.netinsight.net

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was  The control key where God meant it to be)
From: bmarcum@iglou.com
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On 1999-11-30 dowe@localhost.localdomain(DoweKeller) said:
   >On 30 Nov 1999 07:50:45 GMT, Natarajan Krishnaswami <nxk3@po.cwru.
   >edu> wrote:
   >[snip]
   >>> Cue the obligatory "vi doesn't have modes, it has commands with
   >>>long  arguments" debate.
   >>I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
   >Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
   >Taquemata.
Face it, you can't talk him outa anything!

Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 10:51:53 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <3844C96A.A6C33B82@netinsight.net>,
   Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>
>
>Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> 
>> Bernie Cosell wrote:
>> >
>> > nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
>> >
>> > } On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist 
<johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> > } > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>> > }
>> > } Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>> > } like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>> > } have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>> >
>> > Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in 
the
>> > wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* 
editor.
>> > And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened.
>> 
>> I'm only familiar with the DEC TECO's, and on these you hit double
>> <ESCAPE> or double <ALTMODE> to actually execute the command.  Which
>> versions of TECO used <ENTER> as the command terminator?
>
>MIT TECO also used <ESC><ESC> as a command terminator. No TECO I've
>heard
>of (is there any other?) used <CR>.
>
>But apart from that, I'm not sure what is meant by a "modal" editor. Are
>we
>talking about the vi behavious where you switch between insert and
>command mode?
>
>If so, I guess you might call TECO mode-oriented, as there was a
>specific
>insert command, but one cannot really map any modern editors on how
>TECO does things.
>
>Oh, and by the way, MIT TECO was screen oriented, sort of. DEC TECO
>never
>got that far, but you can play with screens in DEC TECO as well.

OK, guys.  Time for some corrections.  The officially supported
DEC TECO on the TOPS10 distribution (a.k.a the CUSP tape) was not
screen oriented.  However, I shipped a VTECO on the Customer Supported
Tape which did screen editing.  As soon as a VTECO was put up on
our SYS:, I used it exclusively.  

The reason we didn't put it on the CUSP tape was because it
became impossible to introduce something new without having
a cast of thousands (well, slight exaggeration here..make that
dozens) of those suit types to _argue_ about the merits of
support.  That's one of the reasons we (JMF and I) managed
to get a Customer Supported Tape on the TOPS10 monitor 
distribution.  It was our way of skirting around the idiots.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 99 10:59:59 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com>,
   Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
>nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
>
>} On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist 
<johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>} > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>} 
>} Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>} like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>} have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>
>Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
>wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
>And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened. 

Not our (TOPS10's) TECO.  No activity was done until the double 
altmode was typed.
<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen)
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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In article <3844C96A.A6C33B82@netinsight.net>, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> writes:

> Oh, and by the way, MIT TECO was screen oriented, sort of. DEC TECO
> never
> got that far, but you can play with screens in DEC TECO as well.

I have been using DEC TECO on VMS for 21 years, and as best as I can
recall for all that time the command "6,7:w" has put TECO into "screen
mode" where all my edits are reflected on the screen and I never need
to use the "v" command.  What do you mean by "MIT TECO was screen oriented,
sort of. DEC TECO never got that far" ?

Larry Kilgallen

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com> <3844C96A.A6C33B82@netinsight.net> <823392$bt3$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
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From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
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In article <823392$bt3$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>OK, guys.  Time for some corrections.  The officially supported
>DEC TECO on the TOPS10 distribution (a.k.a the CUSP tape) was not
>screen oriented.  However, I shipped a VTECO on the Customer Supported
>Tape which did screen editing.  As soon as a VTECO was put up on
>our SYS:, I used it exclusively.  

Getting ready to stick my foot in my mouth as always but, didn't the MIT
ITS TECO have some kind of full-screen mode where you could move the cursor
around like any "modern" editor?  The name "^R mode" popped into my head but
who knows why.  Anyway I never used VTECO (except for something by the same
name on 2BSD UNIX but that may be irrelevant), was this a character-oriented
editor (like VTEDIT I guess) or just a full-screen window for regular TECO
(like TECO/SCROLL on TECO-11)?  I used to use TECO/SCROLL for everything
on RSTS, and it still comes in handy once in a while when I want to do some
complicated transformation w/o having to write a real program to do it.

>That's one of the reasons we (JMF and I) managed
>to get a Customer Supported Tape on the TOPS10 monitor 
>distribution.  It was our way of skirting around the idiots.

Nice going!  I always enjoyed the way TECO kept reappearing no matter how
many times it was declared dead.  This "customer supported" scam was a great
idea.

John Wilson
D Bit

######

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Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> > The code was designed to look like noisy lines!
FRED (QED) programs may look much the same.  Someone once
commented that you measure the size of an APL program in square
inches.  The same applies to TECO and QED.
> 
> Joking aside, is anyone really afficted by noisy lines ?
> I use TECO daily and have not had such a problem in years.
> TECO may not have changed much but the hardware has gotten
> better so line noise should not affect use of TECO (or lesser
> editors, for that matter).

I occasionally get noise when dialing into a customer site
(modems don't always manage to negotiate enough error correction).
More commonly what I get is network delay problems.  Our office is
in Kitchener Ontario, but the mainframes I do most of my work on
are in Phoenix.  By the time stuff has bounced around the various
networks it often takes seconds (or minutes if there is transient
congestion).  half duplex with a line editor works rather well.

######

From: fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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Brian Inglis wrote:
> 
> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan
> Krishnaswami) wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
> >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
> >
> >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
> >like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
> >have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
> >
> ><N/>
> 
> The code was designed to look like noisy lines!

The "Realmen" doc says:

<quote>

Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into
editors running on more reasonable operating systems -- EMACS and VI
being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers
consider "what you see is what your get" is just as bad a concept in
Text Editing as it is in women. No, the Real Programmer wants a "you
asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful,
unforgiving, and dangerous. TECO, to be precise.

It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles
transmission-line noise than readable text (4). One of the more
entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a
command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible
typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy yuour
program, or even worse, introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once
working subroutine.

For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so
well that many working programs on IBM systems bear no relation to the
original FORTRAN code. In many cases, the original source code is no
longer available. When it comes time to fix a program like this, no
manager would even think of sending anyone less than a Real Programmer
to do the job -- no Quiche Eating Structured Programmer would even know
where to start. This is called "job security".

</quote>



-- 
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/  FTB.

######

From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:49:25 -0500
Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
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Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:

} Bernie Cosell wrote:
} > 
} > nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
} > 
} > } On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
} > } > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
} > }
} > } Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
} > } like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
} > } have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
} > 
} > Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
} > wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
} > And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened.
} 
} I'm only familiar with the DEC TECO's, and on these you hit double
} <ESCAPE> or double <ALTMODE> to actually execute the command.  Which
} versions of TECO used <ENTER> as the command terminator?

You must be familiar with the (later) PDP-6 and onward DEC TECOs. I did get
that wrong, though: the original PDP-1 TECO used a *SINGLE* escape [not
'enter'] to say "go do it" (although this was on a TTY on our PDP-1: TECO
was developed for paper tape and editing from the Soroban "consolte
typewriter" on the PDP-1 and I'm pretty sure that that puppy did _not_have
anything like ESCAPE, and so it is possible that in the _real_ original
TECO [one generation before the version Dan M put together for our PDP-1]
you did hit <RETURN>].

On the other hand, I cannot for the life of me remember what the internal
terminator was for commands that take strings [like F<string>???term???
[for find] and i<string>???term??? [insert]]

 /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com            Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

######

From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:49:27 -0500
Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
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jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

} In article <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com>,
}    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
} >nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
} >
} >} On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist 
} <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
} >} > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
} >} 
} >} Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
} >} like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
} >} have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
} >
} >Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
} >wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
} >And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened. 
} 
} Not our (TOPS10's) TECO.  No activity was done until the double 
} altmode was typed.
} <snip>

Right, and on ours, a generation or two older than the 6/10 versions, it
was a single ESCAPE [not 'enter'.. I misremembered].  Same thing, just
different terminators: you typed in an often-huge complicated command and
then hit <ESCAPE> [or ESC-ESC] and hoped for the best...

  /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com            Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

######

From: Alexandre Pechtchanski <alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:49:27 -0500, Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
wrote:

>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>} In article <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com>,
>}    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
[ snip ]
>} >Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
>} >wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* editor.
>} >And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened. 
>} 
>} Not our (TOPS10's) TECO.  No activity was done until the double 
>} altmode was typed.
>} <snip>
>
>Right, and on ours, a generation or two older than the 6/10 versions, it
>was a single ESCAPE [not 'enter'.. I misremembered].  Same thing, just
>different terminators: you typed in an often-huge complicated command and
>then hit <ESCAPE> [or ESC-ESC] and hoped for the best...

One Esc to terminate command, double-Esc to execute it... And if you were a real
programmer, you _knew exactly_ what the command will do. 

<g, d & r>

[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY

######

Sender: worley@blob.ariadne.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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From: Dale Worley <worley@dworley.ne.mediaone.net>
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wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes:
> Getting ready to stick my foot in my mouth as always but, didn't the MIT
> ITS TECO have some kind of full-screen mode where you could move the cursor
> around like any "modern" editor?  The name "^R mode" popped into my head but
> who knows why.

You remember correctly.  "^R mode" was started by the ^R command.
Each key that the user typed executed the code in a q-register with a
name matching the character.  IIRC, there was a special set of
q-registers for this purpose, with names like ^Ra, ^R.a, ^R..a, ^R...a
(activated by "a", "control a", "meta a", and "control meta a").
People quickly started using a set of canned q-register values, which
came to be known as EMACS ("Editing MACroS").  So the first Emacs was
implemented in TECO, which make it hellish to extend.

Stallman was the maintainer of TECO and EMACS, and eventually rewrote
Emacs implemented in Lisp.  I later implemented TECO in Lisp so you
could run it under Gnu Emacs.

Dale

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 1 Dec 1999 23:12:52 GMT
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Bernie Cosell  <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

>} I'm only familiar with the DEC TECO's, and on these you hit double
>} <ESCAPE> or double <ALTMODE> to actually execute the command.  Which
>} versions of TECO used <ENTER> as the command terminator?
>
> You must be familiar with the (later) PDP-6 and onward DEC TECOs. I did get
> that wrong, though: the original PDP-1 TECO used a *SINGLE* escape [not
> 'enter'] to say "go do it" (although this was on a TTY on our PDP-1: TECO
> was developed for paper tape and editing from the Soroban "consolte
> typewriter" on the PDP-1 and I'm pretty sure that that puppy did _not_have
> anything like ESCAPE, and so it is possible that in the _real_ original
> TECO [one generation before the version Dan M put together for our PDP-1]
> you did hit <RETURN>].

Hmmm... when I asked him about this several months ago, Dan Murphy
told me that the original PDP-1 TECO terminated commands with an
upshift-downshift sequence: that is, shifting to uppercase and back
to lowercase with no intervening characters.  He also said that the
equivalent to the later single ESC to terminate insertions was the
PDP-1 "centered dot" character.

If you ever find your PDP-1 TECO manual, I'd love to know what it says.

eric

######

From: nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 2 Dec 1999 05:49:19 GMT
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On 01 Dec 1999 21:04:53 -0500, Dale Worley <worley@dworley.ne.mediaone.net> wrote:

> I later implemented TECO in Lisp so you could run it under Gnu
> Emacs.

Rather than expound on the exquisite symmetry of your solution, and
how it has a great deal of aesthetic value, I shall sum that up as:
You rule!  :-)

<N/>
-- 
  you have been evaluated.  you have a negative reference count.  prepare
  to be garbage collected.  persistence is futile.
	-- Erik Naggum

######

From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 02 Dec 99 10:11:07 -0800
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In article <8260r3$55h$5@autumn.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com
(jmfbahciv) writes:

>Harumph!  No wonder there's crap in the world.  Part of being
>a real damn good programmer is ensuring that one's customers
>can use the sources, relocatables, and executables without
>handholding.

On the other hand, there are limits.  At one site that we were
converting from a Univac 9400 to a 90/30 (sort of a 360/50
workalike), I dared to introduce one of those newfangled BXLE
instructions into an assembly-language program.  I walked in
one morning to find them with the listing and several assembler
reference manuals open.  They were quite unhappy that I was
using a "new" instruction, however well-documented it might be.

--
cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.

######

From: prs@gol.com (Jacqui or (maybe) Pete)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:37:14 +0100, fungus
<spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
>
>For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
>program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
>just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
>called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so

I have heard that some people insist on terminating the job and 
patching the binary on disk rather than in memory.  Very cautious
behaviour.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 13:26:11 GMT
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In article <7rua4scuvmc3fmp7uphlpaqrulqjaa3vr6@4ax.com>,
   Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>} In article <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com>,
>}    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
>} >nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) wrote:
>} >
>} >} On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist 
>} <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>} >} > No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>} >} 
>} >} Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>} >} like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>} >} have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>} >
>} >Aside from the fact that many of us *LIKE* modal editors, you're in the
>} >wrong ballpark in the inquiry.  TECO was a command-oriented *TAPE* 
editor.
>} >And so you typed some command, hit <ENTER> and something happened. 
>} 
>} Not our (TOPS10's) TECO.  No activity was done until the double 
>} altmode was typed.
>} <snip>
>
>Right, and on ours, a generation or two older than the 6/10 versions, it
>was a single ESCAPE [not 'enter'.. I misremembered].  Same thing, just
>different terminators: you typed in an often-huge complicated command and
>then hit <ESCAPE> [or ESC-ESC] and hoped for the best...

A single <ESCAPE> would terminate the phrase but not execute the
command.  The double <ESC> would execute the command.  For instance,
the macro NFOO.BAR$;-3DIZAP$$ would not do the search for FOO.BAR
until the two escapes were typed.  The first escape terminated the
search phrase.

It's OK to misremember even if you were using it today since
the commands were typed automagically without thought if one
was very proficient :-).

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 99 13:28:34 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 60
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In article <3845329A.6E408A11@egg.chips.and.spam.com>,
   fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
>
>
>Brian Inglis wrote:
>> 
>> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan
>> Krishnaswami) wrote:
>> 
>> >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist 
<johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>> >
>> >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>> >like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>> >have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>> >
>> ><N/>
>> 
>> The code was designed to look like noisy lines!
>
>The "Realmen" doc says:
>
><quote>
>
>Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into
>editors running on more reasonable operating systems -- EMACS and VI
>being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers
>consider "what you see is what your get" is just as bad a concept in
>Text Editing as it is in women. No, the Real Programmer wants a "you
>asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful,
>unforgiving, and dangerous. TECO, to be precise.
>
>It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles
>transmission-line noise than readable text (4). One of the more
>entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a
>command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible
>typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy yuour
>program, or even worse, introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once
>working subroutine.
>
>For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
>program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
>just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
>called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so
>well that many working programs on IBM systems bear no relation to the
>original FORTRAN code. In many cases, the original source code is no
>longer available. When it comes time to fix a program like this, no
>manager would even think of sending anyone less than a Real Programmer
>to do the job -- no Quiche Eating Structured Programmer would even know
>where to start. This is called "job security".

Harumph!  No wonder there's crap in the world.  Part of being
a real damn good programmer is ensuring that one's customers
can use the sources, relocatables, and executables without
handholding.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: Bob Schor <bschor@pitt.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:22:57 -0500
Organization: Department of Otolaryngology, University of Pittsburgh
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Bernie Cosell wrote:

> On the other hand, I cannot for the life of me remember what the internal
> terminator was for commands that take strings [like F<string>???term???
> [for find] and i<string>???term??? [insert]]

Would you believe <esc>?  So a "replace abc with def" became fsabc$def$$ (I'm using $ as the symbol for
<esc>, as this is how it usually echoed, at least on TECO-11).  There was
also the "@-modified" form of the command, where you could specify the terminator.  Thus
@fs/abc/def/$.

Bob Schor
Still (occasional) user of TECO

######

From: "donald tees" <donald@willmack.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:16:40 -0500
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Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote in message <384b6573.8699829@nnrp.gol.com>...
>On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:37:14 +0100, fungus
><spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
>>program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
>>just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
>>called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so
>
>I have heard that some people insist on terminating the job and
>patching the binary on disk rather than in memory.  Very cautious
>behaviour.

Real programmers blast it into prom as the normal load method. The beginners
do it your way with a ram emulation.
(if you real good, you just construct the mask and go)

######

From: dowe@36.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net (Dowe Keller)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 2 Dec 1999 22:05:18 GMT
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On Thu, 02 Dec 99 13:26:11 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:

>A single <ESCAPE> would terminate the phrase but not execute the
>command.  The double <ESC> would execute the command.  For instance,
>the macro NFOO.BAR$;-3DIZAP$$ would not do the search for FOO.BAR
>until the two escapes were typed.  The first escape terminated the
>search phrase.

Just to help clarify, those dollar signs represent the <ESC> characters.

Dowe Keller	dowe@worldnet.att.net	http://home.att.net/~dowe

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 10:34:32 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article 
<slrn84drd8.3ov.dowe@36.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
   dowe@36.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net (Dowe Keller) wrote:
>On Thu, 02 Dec 99 13:26:11 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com <jmfbahciv@aol.com> 
wrote:
>
>>A single <ESCAPE> would terminate the phrase but not execute the
>>command.  The double <ESC> would execute the command.  For instance,
>>the macro NFOO.BAR$;-3DIZAP$$ would not do the search for FOO.BAR
>>until the two escapes were typed.  The first escape terminated the
>>search phrase.
>
>Just to help clarify, those dollar signs represent the <ESC> characters.
>

Yup.  Thanks :-).  To clarify it even more--that's how the
escape character was displayed when typed on a TOPS10 operating
system.

Also, the command wasn't really technically a macro.  A macro
was contained by angle brackets.  


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 99 10:37:39 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <811.5T350T6113335@sky.bus.com>,
   "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>In article <8260r3$55h$5@autumn.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com
>(jmfbahciv) writes:
>
>>Harumph!  No wonder there's crap in the world.  Part of being
>>a real damn good programmer is ensuring that one's customers
>>can use the sources, relocatables, and executables without
>>handholding.
>
>On the other hand, there are limits.  At one site that we were
>converting from a Univac 9400 to a 90/30 (sort of a 360/50
>workalike), I dared to introduce one of those newfangled BXLE
>instructions into an assembly-language program.  I walked in
>one morning to find them with the listing and several assembler
>reference manuals open.  They were quite unhappy that I was
>using a "new" instruction, however well-documented it might be.
>
Well, part of developing and maintaining an operating system
was customer training, most of that was viewed as a PITRA
if a customer thinks he knows more that you do.  The conflict
usually occurred when the customer couldn't learn to consider
different flavors of customers.  We had to think about _all_
kinds of computer installations.  A few of our more vocal
customers erroneously assume that all installations were 
like them.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 3 Dec 1999 11:55:08 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
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"donald tees" <donald@willmack.com> writes:

>Real programmers blast it into prom as the normal load method. The beginners
>do it your way with a ram emulation.

And as all real programmers know, you can only turn a 1 into a 0 in PROMs
(the other way around with some, and let's not get into that Cypress 
weirdness...).  A real programmer can patch code without throwing the old
PROM away.

John West

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <3845633f_3@news.wizvax.net>, wilson@dbit.com says...
>
>Getting ready to stick my foot in my mouth as always but, didn't the MIT
>ITS TECO have some kind of full-screen mode where you could move the cursor
>around like any "modern" editor?

As I've posted here before, I was sitting around the PDP-6 at DEC one 
afternoon in 1966 when a couple of guys returned from a visit to MIT's Project 
MAC. One of them was carrying a DECtape. He said something like, "Wait 'til 
you see what I've got here, it's called TECO".

It was quickly installed on the -6 and we all started to learn how to use it. 
We had been using EDITOR prior to TECO's arrival. One of the things I remember 
being told was that at MIT the text being edited appeared on a display, and 
that somehow the current position was indicated, perhaps by highlighting the 
character to the right of the current position. Doing a "CCC$$" would result 
in the indication moving three characters to the right, for example. I assume 
the display being used was the old round tube, whose model number I can't 
recall but it was the predecessor of the VB10C.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett)
Organization: Everett Associates
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In article <8260mk$55h$4@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>
>A single <ESCAPE> would terminate the phrase but not execute the
>command.  The double <ESC> would execute the command.  For instance,
>the macro NFOO.BAR$;-3DIZAP$$ would not do the search for FOO.BAR
>until the two escapes were typed.  The first escape terminated the
>search phrase.
>
>It's OK to misremember even if you were using it today since
>the commands were typed automagically without thought if one
>was very proficient :-).

Yes, I used to say that the neural ganglia in my wrists knew TECO.

BTW, your little command reminds me of a string I learned watching TW debug 
disk code, IFOO<CRLF>HXA127GA$$ would fill a buffer with exactly 128 words of 
text. One could then write a file of n blocks in length with nPEF$$.

-- 
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett)    http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett


######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 3 Dec 1999 16:15:24 GMT
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
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John Everett <jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com> wrote:

> It was quickly installed on the -6 and we all started to learn how
> to use it.  We had been using EDITOR prior to TECO's arrival. One
> of the things I remember being told was that at MIT the text being
> edited appeared on a display, and that somehow the current position
> was indicated, perhaps by highlighting the character to the right
> of the current position.

According to the July 23, 1965 MIT TECO manual, "in all displays
of the buffer, the pointer is displayed as a flashing vertical bar,
unless it is not in the range being displayed or is at the end of
the buffer."  Could this be the ancestor of the "insertion point"
cursor from the Macintosh GUI?

eric

######

From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 03 Dec 1999 22:10:19 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
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	<3835b6f5.776597918@192.168.2.34> <J5oZ3.1657$X5.229140@ptah.visi.com>
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In article <1b1z98eeah.fsf@rhuidean.cs.nmsu.edu> Joe Pfeiffer
<pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:

>It wasn't screen-oriented at all.  You typed a command, and *something*
>happened to the file.

[snip]

>Heck, this thing was powerful enough that it was possible to write a set of
>macroes that implemented a screen-oriented editor!

Not exactly.  RMS added a full-screen editor to the older editor, invoked with
the ^R command; there were even raw ^R-mode commands that some people liked.
Then people started writing sets of editing macros that took advantage of ^R
mode, RMS collected them and determined the largest intersection, added more,
and released the first version of EMACS.

RMS got the idea for his full-screen editor from the E editor at SAIL.

DEC eventually released a full-screen TECO for the PDP-10 (DEC-20 only?  I
don't know for sure.) called TV.  Incompatible in all ways with MIT TECO.

Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now

######

From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 03 Dec 1999 22:37:26 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
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In article <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com> Bernie Cosell
<bernie@fantasyfarm.com> writes:

>Emacs arose out of the ITS Teco [was it still on the PDP-6 at that point or
>was it already the -10?].

The -10--the first EMACS was around 1973 or 1974, as I recall.

>The reason why EMACS has the 'meta' kludgery is because the folks at MIT who
>cobbled this together were using fancy terminals with lots of extra 'flag'
>keys [one of which was 'meta'.  another was 'control', and in the original
>emacs control-capital-A was different from control-lowercase-A [one had the
>control-and-shift bits set along with 'A', the other had only the control-bit
>set --- that world used nine-bit characters, four to a word on the 36-bit
>PDP-6/10].  And so meta-X wasn't the strange PITA it was for us ASCII/VT100
>folk --- for the MIT folk it was just 'hold down the meta key and hit X'.

The following excerpt from TECORD.INFO (Tops-20; ITS name was TECO ORDER)
covers the various character sets:

*******************************************************************************
   TECO's character sets:  (numbers in this section are in octal)

   The most important TECO character sets are ASCII (7-bit) and the 9-bit
   TV set.  The contents of all files, strings, and buffers, and thus all
   TECO commands,  are in ASCII; 9-bit is  used only  for terminal input.
   Here is how TECO converts between character sets:

   14-bit to 9-bit conversion when characters are read in:

   When a character is actually read from the terminal, it is in a 14-bit
   character set which contains a basic 7-bit code, and the control, meta
   and top bits (also shift and shift-lock, which  are ignored since they
   are already merged into the basic 7-bit  character).  TECO converts it
   to 9-bit as follows: if top is 0, and the 7-bit character is less than
   40 and not bs,  tab,  LF, CR or  altmode,  then add  control+100; then
   clear out top, shift  and shift-lock.  Thus,  TV  uparrow comes in  as
   top+013 and turns  into 013; TV  control-K comes in as control+113 and
   stays control+113; TV "VT" comes in as 013 and turns into control+113;
   TV control-VT comes in as control+013  and becomes control+113; non-TV
   control-K comes in as 013 and becomes  control+113; TV control-I comes
   in as control+111 and stays control+111; TV "tab"  comes in as 011 and
   stays 011;  TV    control-tab  comes in   as   control+011 and   stays
   control+011; non-TV "tab" or control-I comes in as 011 and stays 011.

   The character  4110 (Top-H)  is   the HELP character;  it is   handled
   specially.  It is not changed, even  when any other character would be
   converted to 9-bit or 7-bit.  It is always returned as 4110.  However,
   if FS HELP MAC$ is nonzero, then 4110 typed AT ANY  TIME will cause FS
   HELP MAC$ to be run.  When FS HELP MAC$ is  run, the 4110 is otherwise
   ignored, so TECO will continue to wait for input  (unless FS HELP MAC$
   sets FS REREAD$ to supply some).  Only when FS  HELP MAC$ is zero will
   4110 ever be   returned to  the   user.  ^R ignores  4110 (except  for
   running FS HELP MAC$).

   9-bit to ASCII, when TECO wants to read an ASCII code:

   Input read in using "@FI", or read by the  ^R-mode comand dispatch, is
   used  as 9-bit.  However, when  input is read  by "FI", or by the "^T"
   command reader, or by TECO top level, it must be converted to ASCII as
   follows: meta is  thrown away; if control is  0 then  nothing changes;
   otherwise, control  is cleared and the  following actions performed on
   the 7-bit  character that is left:  rubout stays the  same; characters
   less than 40    stay the same;  characters   more than  137  have  140
   subtracted; characters 100 to 137  have 100 subtracted; all others are
   unchanged, except  for  40   (Space) which  becomes   0 (^@).    Thus,
   control+111 (TV  control-I) becomes 011; control+011  (TV control-tab)
   becomes  011;  and  011  (TV  tab, or   non-TV control-I)  stays  011.
   Similarly, TV uparrow, TV "VT", TV control-K  and non-TV control-K all
   become 013.

   ASCII to 9-bit in FS ^RCMACRO$ and FS ^R INIT$:

   The ^R  command dispatch table  is indexed  by  9-bit characters.  For
   compatibility with  the  time that it was    not, the commands  FS  ^R
   CMACRO$ and FS ^R INIT$, when not given the atsign modifier, accept an
   ASCII  argument,  and try  to  have the   effect  of referring to  the
   definition  of that ASCII character--in  fact,  they convert the ASCII
   character to 9-bit and then index their tables.   The conversion is as
   follows: If the character is less than 40, and is  not bs, tab, LF, CR
   or altmode, then add control+100.   Thus, 013 (^K) becomes control+113
   (TV "VT" or control-K, not TV  "uparrow"), which is  just right.  Tab,
   etc.   have a  harder  time doing   the right  thing,   since both 011
   control+111  are   plausible  ways   that the   user could   type what
   corresponds to ASCII 011.  The  solution chosen is  to leave 011 ASCII
   the same in 9-bit, since  the ^R-mode definition  of control-111 is to
   use 011's definition.

   The initial ^R-mode definitions of all 9-bit characters:

   All  characters  whose  bottom 7  bits  form a  lower case  letter are
   defined to indirect  through the  corresponding upper case  character.
   Their    definitions   are  all 40,,RRINDR,      where  RRINDR is  the
   indirect-definition routine, and 40 specifies the character 40 less.

   Control-BS  and Control-H indirect through  BS, and  similarly for Tab
   and LF.   Control-CR  and   Control-Altmode (but not   Control-M   and
   Control-[)  indirect  through     CR  and Altmode.   An     isomorphic
   indirection-pattern exists for meta characters.

   Control-,  Meta-   and  Control-Meta-digits all  accumulate  into  the
   numeric argument.

   Control-, Meta- and Control-Meta-Minus-sign all set the 4 bit in FS ^R
   ARGP$, thus negating the next command's arg.

   All other meta characters are self-inserting.  A few (mentioned above)
   are self inserting  because   they  go  indirect through  other   meta
   characters.

   All    non-control non-meta characters,  except   for  CR, altmode and
   rubout, are self-inserting.   CR inserts CRLF; altmode leaves ^R-mode;
   rubout deletes backwards.  Of the  rest, ^H, ^I and  ^J are defined to
   insert  themeselves  straight away, while the  rest  are defined to be
   "normal" and do whatever FS ^R NORMAL$ and FS ^R REPLACE$ say.

   Control-rubout  has its  own special  routine,  which deletes treating
   spaces as if they were tabs.

   Control-digits update the numeric arg for the next command.

   All  other control  characters not in   the range control+101  through
   control+135 are errors.

   Control-M inserts just a CR.  Control-[ is an error.

   The  remaining control  characters from control-101  to control-135 do
   what the ^R command table says, or else are errors.
*******************************************************************************

Rich Alderson			Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
				Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM		Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now

######

From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 03 Dec 1999 23:02:55 GMT
Organization: NETCOM On-line services
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Message-ID: <ALDERSON.99Dec3150255@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <wSgZ3.184$CM.18574@news2.voicenet.com>
	<3835b6f5.776597918@192.168.2.34> <J5oZ3.1657$X5.229140@ptah.visi.com>
	<817347$je5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <1466.994T1616T6405173@sky.bus.com>
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BTW, I don't remember whether I've ever asked you this.

I know you were associated with the port of MACLISP from ITS to Multics, since
your name is on the manual, but did you have anything to do with the creation
of the MACLISP-based EMACS on Multics?

								Rich Alderson

######

From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:56:59 -0500
Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <p4ug4s0a1hds1d1jm7cm6ua0ottka46qe3@4ax.com>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com> <3844C96A.A6C33B82@netinsight.net> <823392$bt3$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <3845633f_3@news.wizvax.net> <87u2m2rtbu.fsf@blob.ariadne.com>
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Dale Worley <worley@dworley.ne.mediaone.net> wrote:

} wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes:
} > Getting ready to stick my foot in my mouth as always but, didn't the MIT
} > ITS TECO have some kind of full-screen mode where you could move the cursor
} > around like any "modern" editor?  The name "^R mode" popped into my head but
} > who knows why.
} 
} You remember correctly.  "^R mode" was started by the ^R command.
  [...]
} People quickly started using a set of canned q-register values, which
} came to be known as EMACS ("Editing MACroS").  So the first Emacs was
} implemented in TECO, which make it hellish to extend.
} 
} Stallman was the maintainer of TECO and EMACS, and eventually rewrote
} Emacs implemented in Lisp.  I later implemented TECO in Lisp so you
} could run it under Gnu Emacs.

Actually, I was under the impression that Stallman was only czar of ITS
Teco, itself, and Gene Ciccarelli and Earl Killian and folk like that did
most of the work on the e-macs [I put in a VT100 keypad mode [what an awful
job THAT was] when it migrated to BBN....

  /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com            Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

######

From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:57:01 -0500
Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <2aug4s4lej1pkip2bra2d0fqh191eaah99@4ax.com>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com> <3843BAD3.6E33A479@trailing-edge.com> <thua4s02plru2g7a7372iippetjt4k5roc@4ax.com> <824a1k$55k$1@eve.enteract.com>
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Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com> wrote:

} Bernie Cosell  <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
} 
} >} I'm only familiar with the DEC TECO's, and on these you hit double
} >} <ESCAPE> or double <ALTMODE> to actually execute the command.  Which
} >} versions of TECO used <ENTER> as the command terminator?
} >
} > You must be familiar with the (later) PDP-6 and onward DEC TECOs. I did get
} > that wrong, though: the original PDP-1 TECO used a *SINGLE* escape [not
} > 'enter'] to say "go do it" (although this was on a TTY on our PDP-1: TECO
} > was developed for paper tape and editing from the Soroban "consolte
} > typewriter" on the PDP-1 and I'm pretty sure that that puppy did _not_have
} > anything like ESCAPE, and so it is possible that in the _real_ original
} > TECO [one generation before the version Dan M put together for our PDP-1]
} > you did hit <RETURN>].
} 
} Hmmm... when I asked him about this several months ago, Dan Murphy
} told me that the original PDP-1 TECO terminated commands with an
} upshift-downshift sequence: that is, shifting to uppercase and back
} to lowercase with no intervening characters.  He also said that the
} equivalent to the later single ESC to terminate insertions was the
} PDP-1 "centered dot" character.

AH!!  That was the Soroban version --- The version I saw was one that Dan
ported to our PDP-1 [at BBN] and I did all of my work using TTYs.  Dan had
to do some hackery [like not using 'centered dot'...:o)] to get it
ASCII-ized...  I've never used the Soroban version: i did a lot of work on
our PDP-1 in stand-alone mode, but I always did everything in timesharing,
punched a paper tape, and THEN took the system down, so I didn't need a
non-timesharing editor...

} If you ever find your PDP-1 TECO manual, I'd love to know what it says.

I believe that in a box of stuff I have *someplace* is the original memo
Dan wrote when he had ported TECO to our pdp-1... I'll see if it survived
the last move...  If so, I'll check with Dan and maybe I can scan-it-in and
make it available online...

  /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com            Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

######

From: Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:57:03 -0500
Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <ofug4scskfvmc5n0gn9efq20fe824a8j5s@4ax.com>
References: <3835b6f5.776597918@192.168.2.34> <J5oZ3.1657$X5.229140@ptah.visi.com> <817347$je5$1@hawkins.cba.uni.edu> <1466.994T1616T6405173@sky.bus.com> <m3vh6vxpis.fsf@143.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <hmM%3.21$RL2.1002@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net> <3842220C.D70F3C1F@netinsight.net> <81ukv6$hsh$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <gpq74sk4ic9a2jfibsnaqb49uhlu3n9c0t@4ax.com> <3843BAD3.6E33A479@trailing-edge.com> <thua4s02plru2g7a7372iippetjt4k5roc@4ax.com> <3846C710.24FFFB1B@pitt.edu>
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Bob Schor <bschor@pitt.edu> wrote:

} Bernie Cosell wrote:
} 
} > On the other hand, I cannot for the life of me remember what the internal
} > terminator was for commands that take strings [like F<string>???term???
} > [for find] and i<string>???term??? [insert]]
} 
} Would you believe <esc>?  So a "replace abc with def" became fsabc$def$$

Only on the later tecos.  I think we had the first non-FIODEC versino of
TECO that DLM produced and our TECO was "single escape".

Later TECOs *did* use <ESC> for the internal terminator and <ESC><ESC> for
"do it".

  /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com            Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 99 11:03:47 GMT
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In article <0UR14.5847$tI2.113144@ord-read.news.verio.net>,
   jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) wrote:
>In article <8260mk$55h$4@autumn.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
>>
>>A single <ESCAPE> would terminate the phrase but not execute the
>>command.  The double <ESC> would execute the command.  For instance,
>>the macro NFOO.BAR$;-3DIZAP$$ would not do the search for FOO.BAR
>>until the two escapes were typed.  The first escape terminated the
>>search phrase.
>>
>>It's OK to misremember even if you were using it today since
>>the commands were typed automagically without thought if one
>>was very proficient :-).
>
>Yes, I used to say that the neural ganglia in my wrists knew TECO.

Yup.  I had to train the Tape Prep girls and I always had a whole
lot of trouble trying to remember what my fingers typed.  I edited
by thinking in macros or something.  I guess that's one of the reasons
I absolutely hated line editors; they were just too slow for my
fingers :-).

>
>BTW, your little command reminds me of a string I learned 
>watching TW debug disk code, IFOO<CRLF>HXA127GA$$ would 
>fill a buffer with exactly 128 words of 
>text. One could then write a file of n blocks in length 
>with nPEF$$.
>
<grin>  What would TW have done if he couldn't have used TECO?
You should keep your "how DEC got TECO" story on your disk and
post it every year or so just for those who didn't read it the
last time you posted.  

My first memory of DEC TECO development is Chuck McComas giving
Tape Prep a TECO with all his fixes in it.  I don't think there
was much modification after his revision.  

/BAH


/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: Ariel Scolnicov <ariels@compugen.co.il>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 04 Dec 1999 11:34:24 +0200
Organization: NetVision Israel	
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"donald tees" <donald@willmack.com> writes:

> Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote in message <384b6573.8699829@nnrp.gol.com>...
> >On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:37:14 +0100, fungus
> ><spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
> >>program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
> >>just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
> >>called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so
> >
> >I have heard that some people insist on terminating the job and
> >patching the binary on disk rather than in memory.  Very cautious
> >behaviour.
> 
> Real programmers blast it into prom as the normal load method. The beginners
> do it your way with a ram emulation.
> (if you real good, you just construct the mask and go)

It's unclear why you'd want going through all that trouble.  Surely
the only reason for implementing it is to make sure it'll work.  And
obviously you're sure it's going to work, if you're writing straight
to PROM.  So why bother?  Just write the program and move on.

-- 
Ariel Scolnicov

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:23:32 -0700
Organization: Systematic Software
Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca
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On 30 Nov 1999 22:00:41 GMT, dowe@localhost.localdomain (Dowe
Keller) wrote:

>On 30 Nov 1999 07:50:45 GMT, Natarajan Krishnaswami <nxk3@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>> Cue the obligatory "vi doesn't have modes, it has commands with long
>>> arguments" debate.  
>>
>>I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
>>
>
>Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
>
>Taquemata.

Did you mean:

Tacomutha

or perhaps: 

Torquemada? 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu (Richard E. Hawkins)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 4 Dec 1999 14:02:59 -0600
Organization: House of Hawkins
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In article <82bjgf$oba$3@quince.news.easynet.net>,
barnacle <nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>It's unclear why you'd want going through all that trouble.  Surely
>>the only reason for implementing it is to make sure it'll work.  And
>>obviously you're sure it's going to work, if you're writing straight
>>to PROM.  So why bother?  Just write the program and move on.


>ROFL - now there's an engineering approach...once you know how to do 
>something, actually doing loses interest and it just gets left. I can't even 
>remember how many programs I haven't written once I've worked out the 

I still have the pieces of my first computer from 20 years ago.  I built
it once, figured out why it didn't work, built it again, and figured
out that I had a defective wire wrap socket of all things (only a couple
of K resistance between a pair of pins, for some odd reason), and
no longer had any interest in building it again . . .

But in a couple of years, if my girls had any interest . . .

(but all of those neat variatons on it that I figured out . . . 
including how to double the clock rate and still use the graphics
chip compatibly with Elf software . . .)


-- 
Prof. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.   
                                               hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu
(319) 266-7114                        http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk
These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer.

######

From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:35:44 GMT
Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd]
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In article <yzq903bcan3.fsf@selena.compugen.co.il>, Ariel Scolnicov <ariels@compugen.co.il> wrote:
>"donald tees" <donald@willmack.com> writes:
>
>> Jacqui or (maybe) Pete wrote in message <384b6573.8699829@nnrp.gol.com>...
>> >On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:37:14 +0100, fungus
>> ><spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
>> >>program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
>> >>just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
>> >>called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so
>> >
>> >I have heard that some people insist on terminating the job and
>> >patching the binary on disk rather than in memory.  Very cautious
>> >behaviour.
>> 
>> Real programmers blast it into prom as the normal load method. The beginners
>> do it your way with a ram emulation.
>> (if you real good, you just construct the mask and go)
>
>It's unclear why you'd want going through all that trouble.  Surely
>the only reason for implementing it is to make sure it'll work.  And
>obviously you're sure it's going to work, if you're writing straight
>to PROM.  So why bother?  Just write the program and move on.
>

ROFL - now there's an engineering approach...once you know how to do 
something, actually doing loses interest and it just gets left. I can't even 
remember how many programs I haven't written once I've worked out the 
difficult bit!

--
barnacle

http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk

######

From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 4 Dec 1999 19:34:17 GMT
Organization: EnterAct Corp Turbo-Elite News Server
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Bernie Cosell  <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

>} Would you believe <esc>?  So a "replace abc with def" became fsabc$def$$
>
> Only on the later tecos.  I think we had the first non-FIODEC versino of
> TECO that DLM produced and our TECO was "single escape".  Later TECOs 
> *did* use <ESC> for the internal terminator and <ESC><ESC> for "do it".

I have to question the chronology here.  As I understand it, Dan
Murphy graduated from MIT and started working for BBN in 1965, so
the single-ESC BBN PDP-1 ASCII TECO would not have appeared until
at least 1965.  MIT, though, already had a double-ESC PDP-6 ASCII
TECO by October, 1964, so I don't think it's reasonable to label
one ESC as "early" and two ESCs as "late."

eric

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <81vvkl$8sf$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <slrn848ib5.c3.dowe@238.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <27th4sso5lhlu4fggntn5au33rosr3thnv@4ax.com>
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In article <27th4sso5lhlu4fggntn5au33rosr3thnv@4ax.com>,
Brian Inglis  <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>Torquemada? 

The nom-de-lart of one of the Erols abuse admins, I believe.  ;-)

-s
-- 
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware.  http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!

######

From: dowe@42.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net (Dowe Keller)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 4 Dec 1999 23:59:26 GMT
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Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>Did you mean:
>
>Tacomutha
>
>or perhaps: 
>
>Torquemada? 
>
>Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Sorry, did I misspell?  Truth be known, I'd be lost without "ispell",
and it choked on that one.

Dowe Keller	dowe@worldnet.att.net	http://home.att.net/~dowe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Who needs spell check when there are so many helpful people on
usenet :@)

######

Date: 05 Dec 1999 15:46:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UG45$PHw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Message-ID: <7UG45$PHw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk>
	<3842220C.D70F3C1F@netinsight.net> <81ukv6$hsh$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>
	<k3K04.870$Sz5.112551@ptah.visi.com>
	<81vvkl$8sf$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)  wrote on 30.11.99 in <81vvkl$8sf$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>:

> and XEDIT/ISPF EDIT (scriptable in REXX!)) in the mix.)

Huh! I could use something like that, only with a less blockmode-terminal  
oriented UI and maybe Perl instead of REXX ... oh, and not the Emacs "UI"  
either.

Well, XEDIT was used much the same way EMACS is, except with a different  
UI and language - that is, playing display engine for all sorts of  
applications not even remotely related to text editing. I guess it's just  
the UI of EMACS I just cannot live with (and I certainly tried several  
times).

Kai
-- 
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

Date: 05 Dec 1999 16:23:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UG4665mw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Message-ID: <7UG4665mw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk>
	<3842220C.D70F3C1F@netinsight.net> <81ukv6$hsh$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>
	<lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com> <1999Nov30.160043.1@eisner>
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kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen)  wrote on 30.11.99 in <1999Nov30.160043.1@eisner>:

> Joking aside, is anyone really afficted by noisy lines ?
> I use TECO daily and have not had such a problem in years.
> TECO may not have changed much but the hardware has gotten
> better so line noise should not affect use of TECO (or lesser
> editors, for that matter).

Ha. I remember when comp.dcom<something> regularly went "I have problems  
with my modem, I always get these funny characters <insert string>" -  
"Talk to your local telco, their equipment isn't synchronized to the line  
but runs from the local debug-only clock - you may have trouble finding an  
engineer who actually understands what you're talking about". And when  
there were the guy from Hayes and the guy from Telebit (with the misplaced  
r) giving good answers.

Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

Date: 05 Dec 1999 16:33:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Message-ID: <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk>
	<3842220C.D70F3C1F@netinsight.net> <81ukv6$hsh$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>
	<lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com>
	<3845329A.6E408A11@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com (fungus)  wrote on 01.12.99 in <3845329A.6E408A11@egg.chips.and.spam.com>:

> original FORTRAN code. In many cases, the original source code is no
> longer available. When it comes time to fix a program like this, no
> manager would even think of sending anyone less than a Real Programmer
> to do the job -- no Quiche Eating Structured Programmer would even know
> where to start. This is called "job security".

Harumpf.

I don't think I even know what Quiche is supposed to be, but I'm certainly  
a member of the structured crowd, and yet patching binaries (even running  
ones) isn't something I consider particularly exotic.

Hey, it's fun patching the running keyboard driver in an interactive  
debugger. (CP/M, DDT, IIRC.)

It's also fun taking a horrible piece of spagetti code (German translation  
of Applewriter I), dissassemble it, notice that it was obviously  
translated via binary patch, fix all the glaring bugs, unify the dozens of  
slightly different implementations of common functions, remove the  
spagetti-ness of the code, improve the functionality of the result, and  
reassemble the stuff. Without any real intention of ever using the beast.

Kai
-- 
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

Sender: marc@dumbcat.snafu.org
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> 	<3842220C.D70F3C1F@netinsight.net> <81ukv6$hsh$1@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> 	<lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com> <1999Nov30.160043.1@eisner> <7UG4665mw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
From: Marco S Hyman <marc@snafu.org>
Date: 07 Dec 1999 14:31:40 -0800
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kaih=7UG4665mw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:

> Ha. I remember when comp.dcom<something> regularly went "I have problems  
> with my modem, I always get these funny characters <insert string>" -  
> "Talk to your local telco, their equipment isn't synchronized to the line  
> but runs from the local debug-only clock - you may have trouble finding an  
> engineer who actually understands what you're talking about". And when  
> there were the guy from Hayes and the guy from Telebit (with the misplaced  
> r) giving good answers.

Toby Nixon from Hayes.  He then went to Microsoft.  He had the ability
to walk that fine line between hyping the company line and giving good
help and resonable explanations to peoples questions.   He was also
the Hayes representative to the various standard organizations.

// marc

######

From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 8 Dec 1999 05:48:19 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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In article <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:

>It's also fun taking a horrible piece of spagetti code (German translation  
>of Applewriter I), dissassemble it, notice that it was obviously  
>translated via binary patch, fix all the glaring bugs, unify the dozens of  
>slightly different implementations of common functions, remove the  
>spagetti-ness of the code, improve the functionality of the result, and  
>reassemble the stuff. Without any real intention of ever using the beast.

Applewriter I, huh?  Making the most use of those shift registers we've been
discussing?

Did you have any special tools for that patching task?  How about the
unification?  It sounds like it would take a long time.  (I've just started
doing a little bit of disassembly and it's very tedious.)

-- Derek

######

Date: 08 Dec 1999 19:45:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Message-ID: <7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
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	<lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com>
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	<7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <82krf3$rta$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>
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dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)  wrote on 08.12.99 in <82krf3$rta$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>:

> In article <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
> Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
>
> >It's also fun taking a horrible piece of spagetti code (German translation
> >of Applewriter I), dissassemble it, notice that it was obviously
> >translated via binary patch, fix all the glaring bugs, unify the dozens of
> >slightly different implementations of common functions, remove the
> >spagetti-ness of the code, improve the functionality of the result, and
> >reassemble the stuff. Without any real intention of ever using the beast.
>
> Applewriter I, huh?  Making the most use of those shift registers we've been
> discussing?

The only user-visible shift register in the 6502 is the accumulator. Or  
were you talking about something different?

> Did you have any special tools for that patching task?

*I* didn't patch the thing, I took it completely apart and put it together  
again. The translator had obviously patched it.

>How about the
> unification?

Tools?! What tools?

>It sounds like it would take a long time.

Not all that much.

> (I've just started
> doing a little bit of disassembly and it's very tedious.)

Well, remember that Applewriter I ran on Apple ][ class machines, under  
DOS. The maximum RAM available - uh, I don't remember exactly, but it must  
have been around 30 KB. Program and data go in there, so I guess the thing  
might have been something like 10 KB of assembler output. Say 5000 LOC.  
And my memory suggests even less than that.

I may have had some resourcer for 6502, I don't quite remember. But just  
editing disassembler-listings wouldn't have made all that much difference,  
at this code size.

I did that a lot, back then.

I even remember trying to turn CP/M advent back into F80 source code.  
That's one project that died for taking too long. But given the lousy  
optimization of MS F80, it wasn't all that hard; you could mostly just  
look at a disassembly and write down the FORTRAN source.

Kai
-- 
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:14:23 -0700
Organization: Systematic Software
Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca
Message-ID: <bkmu4sketa82rbtsmrd1q0ttcsvphatqqs@4ax.com>
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <lco64ssnl3cro19k7ig9mtnts7877u1kk6@4ax.com> <3845329A.6E408A11@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <82krf3$rta$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
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On 08 Dec 1999 19:45:00 +0200, kaih=7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de
(Kai Henningsen) wrote:

>dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)  wrote on 08.12.99 in <82krf3$rta$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>:
>
>> In article <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
>> Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
>>
>> >It's also fun taking a horrible piece of spagetti code (German translation
>> >of Applewriter I), dissassemble it, notice that it was obviously
>> >translated via binary patch, fix all the glaring bugs, unify the dozens of
>> >slightly different implementations of common functions, remove the
>> >spagetti-ness of the code, improve the functionality of the result, and
>> >reassemble the stuff. Without any real intention of ever using the beast.
>>
>> Applewriter I, huh?  Making the most use of those shift registers we've been
>> discussing?
>
>The only user-visible shift register in the 6502 is the accumulator. Or  
>were you talking about something different?
>
>> Did you have any special tools for that patching task?
>
>*I* didn't patch the thing, I took it completely apart and put it together  
>again. The translator had obviously patched it.
>
>>How about the
>> unification?
>
>Tools?! What tools?
>
>>It sounds like it would take a long time.
>
>Not all that much.
>
>> (I've just started
>> doing a little bit of disassembly and it's very tedious.)
>
>Well, remember that Applewriter I ran on Apple ][ class machines, under  
>DOS. The maximum RAM available - uh, I don't remember exactly, but it must  
>have been around 30 KB. Program and data go in there, so I guess the thing  
>might have been something like 10 KB of assembler output. Say 5000 LOC.  
>And my memory suggests even less than that.
>
>I may have had some resourcer for 6502, I don't quite remember. But just  
>editing disassembler-listings wouldn't have made all that much difference,  
>at this code size.
>
>I did that a lot, back then.
>
>I even remember trying to turn CP/M advent back into F80 source code.  
>That's one project that died for taking too long. But given the lousy  
>optimization of MS F80, it wasn't all that hard; you could mostly just  
>look at a disassembly and write down the FORTRAN source.

You should probably have automated the decompilation with a TECO
macro. 

>Kai

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:14:25 -0700
Organization: Systematic Software
Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca
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On 05 Dec 1999 15:46:00 +0200, kaih=7UG45$PHw-B@khms.westfalen.de
(Kai Henningsen) wrote:

>nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)  wrote on 30.11.99 in <81vvkl$8sf$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>:
>
>> and XEDIT/ISPF EDIT (scriptable in REXX!)) in the mix.)
>
>Huh! I could use something like that, only with a less blockmode-terminal  
>oriented UI and maybe Perl instead of REXX ... oh, and not the Emacs "UI"  
>either.
>
>Well, XEDIT was used much the same way EMACS is, except with a different  
>UI and language - that is, playing display engine for all sorts of  
>applications not even remotely related to text editing. I guess it's just  
>the UI of EMACS I just cannot live with (and I certainly tried several  
>times).
>
>Kai

Whadda ya mean, "not even remotely related to text editing"! It
was used for searchable information display, input, text editing,
command input and output display, the same as any other editor,
like TECO, vi and that other one you mentioned. 

The alternatives were the lighter weight IOS3270, if you could
stomach the display coding, or the absolute hog ISPF, if you
could wait that long to enter 5 fields per screen. 
Hands up all those who ever entered the data on one screen in
ISPF, then used XEDIT to enter the rest of the data directly in
the pseudo-card-image data files. 

The most remotely related app I ever did in XEDIT was very
similar to the much later HTML forms, including form scrolling,
pick lists, radio buttons and selection boxes (not the Xmas ones,
Brits) that I used to survey new users. It kept popping up at
logon until you had answered all the mandatory questions, then
mailed the results to a service VM for storage and analysis. 
It surprised me how few people knew what their job title, group,
section, department, or who their supervisor, manager, VP were. 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:14:27 -0700
Organization: Systematic Software
Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca
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On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:37:14 +0100, fungus
<spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:

>
>
>Brian Inglis wrote:
>> 
>> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan
>> Krishnaswami) wrote:
>> 
>> >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>> >
>> >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>> >like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>> >have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)
>> >
>> ><N/>
>> 
>> The code was designed to look like noisy lines!
>
>The "Realmen" doc says:
>
><quote>
>
>Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into
>editors running on more reasonable operating systems -- EMACS and VI
>being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers
>consider "what you see is what your get" is just as bad a concept in
>Text Editing as it is in women. No, the Real Programmer wants a "you
>asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful,
>unforgiving, and dangerous. TECO, to be precise.
>
>It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles
>transmission-line noise than readable text (4). One of the more
>entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a
>command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible
>typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy yuour
>program, or even worse, introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once
>working subroutine.
>
>For this reason, Real Programmers are reluctant to actually edit a
>program that is close to working. They find it much easier instead to
>just patch the binary object code directly, using a wonderful program
>called SUPERZAP (or its equivalent on non-IBM machines). This works so
>well that many working programs on IBM systems bear no relation to the
>original FORTRAN code. In many cases, the original source code is no
>longer available. When it comes time to fix a program like this, no
>manager would even think of sending anyone less than a Real Programmer
>to do the job -- no Quiche Eating Structured Programmer would even know
>where to start. This is called "job security".
>
></quote>

Depends on where you get your quiche -- I got to like it in a
place where they served it in large slabs made like lasagna,
covering most of a large dinner plate, surrounded by fries and
veggies. I can't believe they are allowed to use the same name
for the piddly ham'n'egg pies you get nowadays. 

My well used ref cards for TECO and various assemblers have not
curled under this influence. And you can't tell me that TECO and
assembler programmers aren't into creative B&D as much as any SP!

I can remember the occasional joy of figuring out that I had only
to toggle one bit in an instruction to patch the code from the
front panel. 
I once sent an APAR+PTF (problem report+patch) of this type to
IBM for a VM (HPO 5) DMKDIR (virtual machine configuration
directory handling) problem we encountered after adding 1000 VMs
(virtual machine/user accounts) to the system for a new local
PROFS (email) install. 
After translation by the change team into (presumably) the PL/S
(secret proprietary) source code equivalent, recompilation into
assembler, and repackaging into official form, it came back to us
as a chunk of assembler source changes, looking totally unrelated
to the problem we experienced. 
It took a bit of stressing at second level (running a different
copy of the OS under itself -- sigh for the lost joys of daytime
OS testing) before we were convinced the offical patch fixed the
bug we encountered, and the IBM code replaced my bit twiddle. 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 10 Dec 1999 03:28:18 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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In article <7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
>dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)  wrote on 08.12.99 in <82krf3$rta$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>:
>> In article <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
>> Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:

>> >It's also fun taking a horrible piece of spagetti code (German translation
>> >of Applewriter I), dissassemble it, notice that it was obviously
>> >translated via binary patch, fix all the glaring bugs, unify the dozens of
>> >slightly different implementations of common functions, remove the
>> >spagetti-ness of the code, improve the functionality of the result, and
>> >reassemble the stuff. Without any real intention of ever using the beast.
>>
>> Applewriter I, huh?  Making the most use of those shift registers we've been
>> discussing?
>
>The only user-visible shift register in the 6502 is the accumulator. Or  
>were you talking about something different?

Actually, I was confused.  The only version of Applewriter that I saw was
version II.  So I assumed that it was named that because it ran on the ][. 
Then I figured that Applewriter I must run on the Apple 1.  The "shift
register" bit is from another thread about the Apple 1's video.

>> Did you have any special tools for that patching task?
>
>*I* didn't patch the thing, I took it completely apart and put it together  
>again. The translator had obviously patched it.

OK, did you have any special tools for the work you did?  (It sounds like
you didn't.)

>> (I've just started
>> doing a little bit of disassembly and it's very tedious.)
>
>Well, remember that Applewriter I ran on Apple ][ class machines, under  
>DOS. The maximum RAM available - uh, I don't remember exactly, but it must  
>have been around 30 KB. Program and data go in there, so I guess the thing  
>might have been something like 10 KB of assembler output. Say 5000 LOC.  
>And my memory suggests even less than that.

Yeah, but the code I'm trying to understand _is_ Apple ][ code.

Maybe I just need to keep practicing.  Maybe the code (the first part of the
Disk ][ boot ROM) is actually difficult to understand.  I expect the rest
will be easier.

-- Derek

######

From: a.c.pugh@shef.ac.uk (andy the pugh)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:51:57 +0000
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Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:

> The alternatives were the lighter weight IOS3270, 

Hey, does that mean we are back where we started? (IBM 3270 PC)

Ob old computers, I found the Whitechapel[1] again the other day, it
has't been skipped. 

[1] MIPS R2000 or something, 1984. 

-- 
ap

######

Date: 11 Dec 1999 13:36:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UgGhfEmw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
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Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)  wrote on 09.12.99 in <6jnu4ssoc5aiiqtfomrt6c269tvlhd13st@4ax.com>:

> On 05 Dec 1999 15:46:00 +0200, kaih=7UG45$PHw-B@khms.westfalen.de
> (Kai Henningsen) wrote:
>
> >nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)  wrote on 30.11.99 in
> ><81vvkl$8sf$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>:
> >> and XEDIT/ISPF EDIT (scriptable in REXX!)) in the mix.)
> >
> >Huh! I could use something like that, only with a less blockmode-terminal
> >oriented UI and maybe Perl instead of REXX ... oh, and not the Emacs "UI"
> >either.
> >
> >Well, XEDIT was used much the same way EMACS is, except with a different
> >UI and language - that is, playing display engine for all sorts of
> >applications not even remotely related to text editing. I guess it's just
> >the UI of EMACS I just cannot live with (and I certainly tried several
> >times).
> >
> >Kai
>
> Whadda ya mean, "not even remotely related to text editing"! It

Which word is unfamiliar?

> was used for searchable information display, input, text editing,
> command input and output display, the same as any other editor,
> like TECO, vi and that other one you mentioned.

Note I did not say "used exclusively".

> The alternatives were the lighter weight IOS3270, if you could
> stomach the display coding, or the absolute hog ISPF, if you
> could wait that long to enter 5 fields per screen.

And of course the good ol' command line, for much of the stuff.

> Hands up all those who ever entered the data on one screen in
> ISPF, then used XEDIT to enter the rest of the data directly in
> the pseudo-card-image data files.

Never used ISPF. Well, unless you count playing with it for an hour or two  
with no serious purpose whatsoever.

I do remember there was a script using indentation for block control,  
which counted as a reason to run away screaming even back then.

> The most remotely related app I ever did in XEDIT was very
> similar to the much later HTML forms, including form scrolling,
> pick lists, radio buttons and selection boxes (not the Xmas ones,
> Brits) that I used to survey new users. It kept popping up at

I *think* mine was my own variation of what back then was known as RELAY  
(the BITNET precursor to today's IRC). Which started out with the  
realization that you could create a console log on CMS, spool it to your  
virtual reader, read it in and parse it for incoming messages. (I later  
used a different, more effective way to get at those messages.) Along the  
way, I once overflowed the spool with a message loop between my script and  
that of someone else. That's one of the reasons the "never answer to  
messages starting with '*', and prefix all your own messages with '*'"  
came around.

First version in EXEC2, later in REXX with a little C support.

OTOH, I quickly grew bored with RELAY - so much that I've never tried IRC.  
With my own thing, the interesting part was the programming.

> It surprised me how few people knew what their job title, group,
> section, department, or who their supervisor, manager, VP were.

Hah. I would have been able to answer only three or four of those back  
then. More today, but only because there are so few people to chose from  
where I work now - and I'm not sure I even _have_ an official job title,  
group, section, or department, given that I *am* the development part of  
the business. (Hmm. Do we have a VP? I don't think so. So maybe it's less,  
not more ...)

Kai
-- 
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

Date: 11 Dec 1999 13:39:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UgGhvjXw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
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	<7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
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Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)  wrote on 09.12.99 in <bkmu4sketa82rbtsmrd1q0ttcsvphatqqs@4ax.com>:

> On 08 Dec 1999 19:45:00 +0200, kaih=7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de
> (Kai Henningsen) wrote:

> >I even remember trying to turn CP/M advent back into F80 source code.
> >That's one project that died for taking too long. But given the lousy
> >optimization of MS F80, it wasn't all that hard; you could mostly just
> >look at a disassembly and write down the FORTRAN source.
>
> You should probably have automated the decompilation with a TECO
> macro.

I had no TECO for CP/M. But I'm pretty sure I did _some_ sort of  
automation - with Turbo Pascal, probably.


Kai
-- 
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

Date: 11 Dec 1999 14:14:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UgGiPQHw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
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dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)  wrote on 10.12.99 in <82ps0i$ug4$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>:

> In article <7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
> Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UV88z5Xw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
> >dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)  wrote on 08.12.99 in
> >> <82krf3$rta$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>: In article
> >> <7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>, Kai Henningsen
> >> <kaih=7UG46RoXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
>
> >> >It's also fun taking a horrible piece of spagetti code (German
> >> >translation of Applewriter I), dissassemble it, notice that it was
> >> >obviously translated via binary patch, fix all the glaring bugs, unify
> >> >the dozens of slightly different implementations of common functions,
> >> >remove the spagetti-ness of the code, improve the functionality of the
> >> >result, and reassemble the stuff. Without any real intention of ever
> >> >using the beast.
> >>
> >> Applewriter I, huh?  Making the most use of those shift registers we've
> >> been discussing?
> >
> >The only user-visible shift register in the 6502 is the accumulator. Or
> >were you talking about something different?
>
> Actually, I was confused.  The only version of Applewriter that I saw was
> version II.  So I assumed that it was named that because it ran on the ][.
> Then I figured that Applewriter I must run on the Apple 1.  The "shift
> register" bit is from another thread about the Apple 1's video.

Applewriter II was a very different beast. *Much* more sophisticated.

Applewriter I didn't do 80 column cards. And it did upper vs. lower case  
by displaying upper case letters in inverse vs. normal video.

> >> Did you have any special tools for that patching task?
> >
> >*I* didn't patch the thing, I took it completely apart and put it together
> >again. The translator had obviously patched it.
>
> OK, did you have any special tools for the work you did?  (It sounds like
> you didn't.)

Well, I'm pretty certain I _did_ have an assembler. I'm quite hazy on the  
disassembler part, though - I don't quite remember what happened when. I  
know that I once did have a 6502 variation of resourcer or however it was  
named, but it was probably later.

> >> (I've just started
> >> doing a little bit of disassembly and it's very tedious.)
> >
> >Well, remember that Applewriter I ran on Apple ][ class machines, under
> >DOS. The maximum RAM available - uh, I don't remember exactly, but it must
> >have been around 30 KB. Program and data go in there, so I guess the thing
> >might have been something like 10 KB of assembler output. Say 5000 LOC.
> >And my memory suggests even less than that.
>
> Yeah, but the code I'm trying to understand _is_ Apple ][ code.
>
> Maybe I just need to keep practicing.  Maybe the code (the first part of the
> Disk ][ boot ROM) is actually difficult to understand.  I expect the rest
> will be easier.

It most definitely is hard to understand. I spent a long time in the  
various parts and versions of the Apple ][ disk code. (Including the  
sequencer PROMs.) Even rewrote it twice (and each time swore this was the  
last time - the write timings were incredibly critical).

Though IIRC the 16 sector boot PROM is far easier than the 13 sector one,  
because the latter used a different way of decoding the boot sector than  
was used for normal sectors, which meant that reading the boot sector the  
normal way gave a scrambled hash of the boot sector code. You see, the  
code to do it right would have been longer than the 256 bytes in the PROM.  
(Or maybe I have the 13 and 16 switched around? I wouldn't bet on it.)

That's what happens if you do most of the floppy controller in software.  
The Disk ][ hardware is essentially a shift register with some logic  
around it, to control converting the bits to and from the analog data,  
controlling the spindle and stepper motor, sensing write protect, and  
stuff like that. To understand it, you really need the schematic.

This meant that software was responsible for ensuring the data didn't  
contain runs of zero bits over a certain length (I _think_ it was zero  
bits), by mangling the data to and from a longer on-disk representation.  
(A bug in the 13 sector sequencer PROMs was responsible for only being  
able to do 13 sectors, it needed even less zero bits than the 16 sector  
one.) And for writing sync bytes, sector headers, and so on. And for  
synchronizing data transfer with that shift register.

It was a mess. And incompatible with everything.

But you could write disk copiers that could copy any copy protected disk,  
unless it involved measuring some sort of on-disk damage by writing to the  
disk. (Wasn't Locksmith the famous one?)

Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

Date: 11 Dec 1999 14:20:00 +0200
From: kaih=7UgGikAHw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Message-ID: <7UgGikAHw-B@khms.westfalen.de>
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Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)  wrote on 09.12.99 in <4vou4s4cjfkn02jctfm7s58f6gtrqg7pjc@4ax.com>:

> IBM for a VM (HPO 5) DMKDIR (virtual machine configuration
> directory handling) problem we encountered after adding 1000 VMs

And of course, it is pure coincidence that this code resembles "mkdir".  
Everything IBM started with a non-mnemonic three letter code describing  
the general area.

I don't quite remember, but I *think* DMK was either the VM product, or  
the CP part. (Most of the MVS stuff seemed to start with "IE" instead.)

Kai
-- 
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
  - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)

######

From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 11 Dec 1999 16:26:40 GMT
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In article <7UgGiPQHw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UgGiPQHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
>dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)  wrote on 10.12.99 in <82ps0i$ug4$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>:

>> Yeah, but the code I'm trying to understand _is_ Apple ][ code.
>>
>> Maybe I just need to keep practicing.  Maybe the code (the first part of the
>> Disk ][ boot ROM) is actually difficult to understand.  I expect the rest
>> will be easier.
>
>It most definitely is hard to understand. I spent a long time in the  
>various parts and versions of the Apple ][ disk code. (Including the  
>sequencer PROMs.) Even rewrote it twice (and each time swore this was the  
>last time - the write timings were incredibly critical).

*whew* I'm not deficient! :)

Actually I've been spending a long time just trying to figure out the first
little bit, which uses brute force to build a table to convert between the
64 "disk bytes" (which range from 128-255, subject to certain conditions)
and the 64 "nondisk bytes" (which range from 0-63).  The nondisk bytes are
then rearranged to give regular bytes (0-255), but that happens in a
different section of the code.

I wanted to convince myself I knew how that code worked.  I think I can also
speed it up by a small amount.  The outer loop starts with a needlessly low
value.


>Though IIRC the 16 sector boot PROM is far easier than the 13 sector one,  
>because the latter used a different way of decoding the boot sector than  
>was used for normal sectors, which meant that reading the boot sector the  
>normal way gave a scrambled hash of the boot sector code. You see, the  
>code to do it right would have been longer than the 256 bytes in the PROM.  
>(Or maybe I have the 13 and 16 switched around? I wouldn't bet on it.)

No, that's right.  I read about that strangeness in _Beneath Apple DOS_ but
not the reason.  How come the 16-sector PROM can afford to do it the normal
way?  I thought the 6-and-2 coding routine was more complicated than the
5-and-3, but maybe that's false.

>It was a mess. And incompatible with everything.

But it's fun!  And easy to understand for non-hardware types like me.

>But you could write disk copiers that could copy any copy protected disk,  
>unless it involved measuring some sort of on-disk damage by writing to the  
>disk. (Wasn't Locksmith the famous one?)

Locksmith and Copy II+ were both very good.  Unfortunately, I think no one
ever wrote a program that could copy any protected disk _with no assistance_;
you had to set various parameters for the disk being copied.  Then the
manufacturers changed the protection scheme.

There was actually a way to fool the "damaged disk" technique.  Normally the
program would expect to write to a sector and FAIL (as checked by reading
back the sector).  A copy would succeed, of course, not having the damage
that made it fail.  But if there are _two_ sectors, the program can write to
the first, read the second, and have the write still fail.  Or something
like that.  That's what happens when you can put the sector numbers in
software. :)

How does copy protection work on inferior machines, anyway?  It can't be as
much fun.  (And what about cassettes?  Why couldn't you just copy the entire
audio signal?)

About Locksmith:  There was a magazine called _The Computist_ that skirted
the edges of legality (and is therefore great reading!).  People are
scanning all the issues.  One (I think the first) mentioned that Locksmith
wasn't written by who everyone thinks it was written by.  I want the details!

-- Derek

######

From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 11 Dec 1999 16:32:08 GMT
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In article <7UgGikAHw-B@khms.westfalen.de>,
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7UgGikAHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> wrote:
>Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)  wrote on 09.12.99 in <4vou4s4cjfkn02jctfm7s58f6gtrqg7pjc@4ax.com>:

>> IBM for a VM (HPO 5) DMKDIR (virtual machine configuration
>> directory handling) problem we encountered after adding 1000 VMs
>
>And of course, it is pure coincidence that this code resembles "mkdir".  
>Everything IBM started with a non-mnemonic three letter code describing  
>the general area.
>
>I don't quite remember, but I *think* DMK was either the VM product, or  
>the CP part. (Most of the MVS stuff seemed to start with "IE" instead.)

I know a little about the OS/360 codes.  IBM reserved a rather large chunk
of letters for themselves.  Did they abandon those by the time VM came
around, or did they mercilessly continue to invade the entire alphabet?

-- Derek

######

From: Paul Guertin <pg@sff.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:37:35 +0900
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kaih=7UgGiPQHw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) wrote:

> It most definitely is hard to understand. I spent a long time in the  
> various parts and versions of the Apple ][ disk code. (Including the  
> sequencer PROMs.) Even rewrote it twice (and each time swore this was the  
> last time - the write timings were incredibly critical).

Did you get any improvements? After disassembling Locksmith 6.0's
fast disk copy, I wondered if there was a way to denibblize data
on the fly without having to waste memory on look-up tables.

> Though IIRC the 16 sector boot PROM is far easier than the 13 sector one,  

Oooh!
Do you still have the listing of the 13-sector boot and sequencer
PROMs? I've been looking for those for months!

> (Or maybe I have the 13 and 16 switched around? I wouldn't bet on it.)

The boot sector on a 16-sector disk is laid out exactly like all the
others, so you were right.

> But you could write disk copiers that could copy any copy protected disk,  
> unless it involved measuring some sort of on-disk damage by writing to the  
> disk. (Wasn't Locksmith the famous one?)

"Any copy-protected disk" must be taken with a grain of salt. If
a program uses something like track arcing, you have to know something
about the layout of the data on the disk in order to be able to
copy it, because blindly copying every half-track will overwrite
adjacent half-tracks. Track arcing means the disk is laid out like
this, with "x" representing valid data and "-" meaning junk.

Track 0   xxxxx---------------
Track 0.5 -----xxxxx----------
Track 1   ----------xxxxx-----
Track 1.5 ---------------xxxxx
Track 2   xxxxx---------------
etc.

This can also be done with quarter-tracks.

I at times wondered if it would be possible to replace or hack the
R/W head on a Disk II drive so that it would not overwrite adjacent
tracks.

But even with such a thing, there are some copy protection schemes
that will resist a brute force attack. For instance, "weak bits"
that are sometimes read as 0 and sometimes as 1 because of
intentionally weak magnetization. I only ever read about these,
I don't know for a fact that they have been used commercially.

Paul Guertin
pg@sff.net

######

From: Paul Guertin <pg@sff.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:37:36 +0900
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dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) wrote:

> Actually I've been spending a long time just trying to figure out the first
> little bit, which uses brute force to build a table to convert between the
> 64 "disk bytes" (which range from 128-255, subject to certain conditions)
> and the 64 "nondisk bytes" (which range from 0-63).  The nondisk bytes are
> then rearranged to give regular bytes (0-255), but that happens in a
> different section of the code.
> 
> I wanted to convince myself I knew how that code worked.  I think I can also
> speed it up by a small amount.  The outer loop starts with a needlessly low
> value.

You can speed it up a lot by nibblizing and denibblizing (that is,
translating between "regular bytes" and "disk bytes" (which are
called "6-bit nibbles" by Apple)) on the fly instead of reading
the 342 nibbles and then translate them to 256 bytes. Fast disk
copy programs that could read a disk in 8 seconds -- with error
checking -- do exactly that (cf. appended source code).

This means that you have to use a different mapping between raw
disk nibbles and cooked bytes, so if you write your own RWTS that
uses this scheme, the sector contents will appear scrambled to
DOS 3.3 or ProDOS.

Note that 8 seconds = 7 seconds to read 35 tracks @ 300 rpm (5 rps)
plus one second to get the motor up to speed, move the drive head
and wait for the next header). Can't get much tighter than that.

I wondered at times if it would be possible to turn on two drives
at once (each connected to its own drive controller card) and read
from the original while writing to the copy. 8-second disk
duplication on an unmodified Apple II...

> Locksmith and Copy II+ were both very good.  Unfortunately, I think no one
> ever wrote a program that could copy any protected disk _with no assistance_;
> you had to set various parameters for the disk being copied.  Then the
> manufacturers changed the protection scheme.

You're right. There comes a point where it's much simpler to
manually thwart the copy-protection scheme than to try and write
a program intelligent enough to do it by itself. Then you can
distribute "parameter lists" to registered users. The last versions
of most major disk copy programs included a simple programming
language that could be used to customize the copy process,
including patching the copy. In fact, Nibbles Away III wasn't
really a bit copier, it was a language with many low-level disk
access primitives, plus a user interface written in that language.
Pretty neat, I thought.

> About Locksmith:  There was a magazine called _The Computist_ that skirted
> the edges of legality (and is therefore great reading!).  People are
> scanning all the issues.

Scanned issues of "Computist" (first known as "Hardcore Computist")
are available at http://tarnover.dyndns.org/computist/ . They make
great reading for anyone who ever hacked the Apple II.

> There was actually a way to fool the "damaged disk" technique.  Normally the
> program would expect to write to a sector and FAIL (as checked by reading
> back the sector).  A copy would succeed, of course, not having the damage
> that made it fail.  But if there are _two_ sectors, the program can write to
> the first, read the second, and have the write still fail.

Oooh, sneaky! You can do a lot of fun things like that, for instance
having more than one boot sector on a disk. This gives you the
equivalent of a "3-sided LP" with two grooves on one side.

* * *

Here's how Locksmith 6.0's fast disk copy reads and decodes at the
same time. I disassembled this a long time ago.

******************************************************************************
* READDAT2 -- Reads data field and denibblizes on the fly
*
* Input:
*     Current sector number in RDSEC (set by READADDR)
*     Current memory page in MEMPAGE
*     Data field prologue in RDATAPRO -- RDATAPRO+2 (normally D5 AA AD)
*     Data field epilogue in RDATAEPI -- RDATAEPI+1 (normally DE AA)
*
* Uses:
*     6-2 decoding table in DECTBL+$96 -- DECTBL+$FF
*     AB-decoding table in DECODEAB -- DECODEAB+$3F
*     CD-decoding table in DECODECD -- DECODECD+$3F
*     EF-decoding table in DECODEEF -- DECODEEF+$3F
*
* Output:
*     (Taking the current page to be $20)
*     Read column by column
*
*     2054:AB222222   2053:AB222222   ...   2000:AB222222
*     20A9:CD333333   20A8:CD333333   ...   2055:CD333333
*     20FE:EF444444   20FD:EF444444   ...   20AA:EF444444
*
*     Next-to-last data byte (00ABCDEF) in 20FF
*     Last data byte (00222222) in (LASTBYTE)+RDSECT
*     Data checksum byte in (CHECKSUM)+RDSECT
*
*     Carry is cleared if read is successful, else it is set.
*
* Register use: A, X, Y
*
* Zero page use:
*     $6A = BYTE1     ;First byte of four, to be split among next three
*     $6B = DATACHK   ;Running data checksum
*
* Calls:
*     None


0988- READDAT2  A0 14       LDY  #20            ;Try 19 times then give up
098A- :NOTD5    88          DEY                 ;Lose some cool
098B-           D0 03       BNE  :TRYAGAIN      ;Try again
098D-           4C 55 0A    JMP  :FAIL          ;No cool left, give up

0990- :TRYAGAIN AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
0993-           10 FB       BPL  :TRYAGAIN      ;Read a byte
0995- :MAYBED5  E4 EE       CPX  RDATAPRO       ;Is it $D5?
0997-           D0 F1       BNE  :NOTD5         ; No, try again
0999-           A5 8F       LDA  RDSEC
099B-           05 7E       ORA  MEMPAGE        ;Get page where to store
data
099D- :2        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
09A0-           10 FB       BPL  :2             ;Read next byte
09A2-           E4 EF       CPX  RDATAPRO+1     ;Is it $AA?
09A4-           D0 EF       BNE  :MAYBED5       ; No, maybe $D5
09A6-           8D DE 09    STA  :MOD1+2
09A9-           8D F2 09    STA  :MOD2+2        ;Do self-mods to store data
09AC-           8D 06 0A    STA  :MOD3+2        ; in the right page
09AF- :3        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
09B2-           10 FB       BPL  :3             ;Read next byte
09B4-           E4 F0       CPX  RDATAPRO+2     ;Is it $AD?
09B6-           D0 DD       BNE  :MAYBED5       ; No, maybe $D5
09B8-           8D 49 0A    STA  :MOD4+2        ;Do last self-mod

* Read first data byte

09BB-           A9 00       LDA  #0             ;Clear checksum
09BD-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK
09BF- :4        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
09C2-           10 FB       BPL  :4             ;Read byte 1/4
09C4-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it: 00ABCDEF
09C7-           85 6A       STA  BYTE1          ;Store here to distribute
next
09C9-           45 6B       EOR  DATACHK
09CB-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK        ;EOR 00ABCDEF to checksum

* Read middle 340 data bytes

09CD-           A0 54       LDY  #$54           ;Do loop $55 times
09CF- :READMID  AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
09D2-           10 FB       BPL  :READMID       ;Read byte 2/4
09D4-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it
09D7-           A6 6A       LDX  BYTE1          ;Get first 2 bits of byte 1
09D9-           1D C0 1B    ORA  DECODEAB,X     ;Now AB222222
09DC- :MOD1     99 00 20    STA  $2000,Y        ;Store in first third
09DF-           45 6B       EOR  DATACHK        ;EOR AB222222 to checksum
09E1-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK
09E3- :6        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
09E6-           10 FB       BPL  :6             ;Read byte 3/4
09E8-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it
09EB-           A6 6A       LDX  BYTE1          ;Get mid 2 bits of byte 1
09ED-           1D 00 1C    ORA  DECODECD,X     ;Now CD333333
09F0- :MOD2     99 55 20    STA  $2055,Y        ;Store in second third
09F3-           45 6B       EOR  DATACHK        ;EOR CD333333 to checksum
09F5-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK
09F7- :7        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
09FA-           10 FB       BPL  :7             ;Read byte 4/4
09FC-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it
09FF-           A6 6A       LDX  BYTE1          ;Get last 2 bits of byte 1
0A01-           1D 40 1C    ORA  DECODEEF,X     ;Now EF444444
0A04- :MOD3     99 AA 20    STA  $20AA,Y        ;Store in third third
0A07-           45 6B       EOR  DATACHK        ;EOR EF444444 to checksum
0A09-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK
0A0B- :8        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
0A0E-           10 FB       BPL  :8             ;Read byte 1/4
0A10-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it: 00ABCDEF
0A13-           85 6A       STA  BYTE1          ;Store here to distribute
next
0A15-           45 6B       EOR  DATACHK        ;EOR 00ABCDEF to checksum
0A17-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK
0A19-           88          DEY                 ;More data to go?
0A1A-           10 B3       BPL  :READMID       ; Yes, loop again

* Read last data byte

0A1C- :9        AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
0A1F-           10 FB       BPL  :9             ;Read last data byte
0A21-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it
0A24-           A4 8F       LDY  RDSEC          ;And store in Lastbyte area
0A26-           91 84       STA  (LASTBYTE),Y
0A28-           45 6B       EOR  DATACHK        ;EOR last byte to checksum
0A2A-           29 3F       AND  #%00111111     ;Keep only 6 low bits
0A2C-           85 6B       STA  DATACHK

* Verify checksum

0A2E- :10       AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
0A31-           10 FB       BPL  :10            ;Read checksum byte
0A33-           BD 00 1C    LDA  DECTBL,X       ;Decode it
0A36-           91 86       STA  (CHECKSUM),Y   ;And store in Checksum area
0A38-           C5 6B       CMP  DATACHK        ;Should be the same
0A3A-           D0 19       BNE  :FAIL          ; No, read error

* Store forgotten next-to-last byte and read data epilogue: DE AA (EB)

0A3C- :11       AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
0A3F-           10 FB       BPL  :11            ;Read next byte
0A41-           E4 F1       CPX  RDATAEPI       ;Is it $DE?
0A43-           D0 10       BNE  :FAIL          ; No, read error
0A45-           A5 6A       LDA  BYTE1          ;Get next-to-last byte,
0A47- :MOD4     8D FF 20    STA  $20FF          ; put it where it belongs
0A4A- :12       AE 8C C0    LDX  SHIFT
0A4D-           10 FB       BPL  :12            ;Read next byte
0A4F-           E4 F2       CPX  RDATAEPI+1     ;Is it $AA?
0A51-           D0 02       BNE  :FAIL          ; No, read error
0A53-           18          CLC                 ; Yes, data read ok
0A54-           60          RTS

0A55- :FAIL     38          SEC                 ;Set carry on read error
0A56-           60          RTS

The DECODEAB, DECODECD and DECODEEF tables are defined by
(DECODEAB+%00ABxxxx) = %AB000000
(DECODECD+%00xxCDxx) = %CD000000
(DECODEEF+%00xxxxEF) = %EF000000

Paul Guertin
pg@sff.net

######

Sender: worley@blob.ariadne.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.lang.teco
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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kaih=7UgGikAHw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
> I don't quite remember, but I *think* DMK was either the VM product, or  
> the CP part. (Most of the MVS stuff seemed to start with "IE" instead.)

That's because MVS is the latest incarnation of the OS/360 line, which
also used the IEx prefixes.  (Dunno about DOS/360, and the even more
primitive TOS and BPS (I think) systems.)

There's gotta be some code in MVS that is in the running for "oldest
running line of code".

Dale
--
Every computer program can be made shorter, and every program has at
least one bug.  It follows by induction that every program can be
reduced to one instruction, which will be wrong.

Incredibly, IBM once distributed such a program.  It was a no-op
program called IEFBR14, consisting of a single "return" instruction
("BR 14" on the IBM 360).  It omitted to set a valid return code,
which would normally be done by setting register 15 to zero ("SR 15,15").
On rare occasions, this mattered, so a patch was distributed, doubling
the size of the program!

######

From: "Ag@Whd" <whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:11:48 +0000
Organization: White Horse Design
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On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
nxk3@nile.scl.cwru.edu scribbled these words:

>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>
>Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)

I've posted the sources ('C') PC executables, and manual for TECO on my
web page if you wanna look at 'em.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd/teco.

Enjoy.

Adrian

WWW    WWW Adrian Gothard                 
WWW ww WWW White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW 			
WWWW  WWWW rot13 to reply: juq@mrgarg.pb.hx
---
Designers of GPS-based satellite tracking systems for vehicles

######

From: "Ag@Whd" <whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:52:39 +0000
Organization: White Horse Design
Reply-To: whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet
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Oops!
There is no "link" on the page and it is case sensitive:

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd/teco.zip


---

On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
nxk3@nile.scl.cwru.edu scribbled these words:

>On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>
>Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
>have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)

I've posted the sources ('C') PC executables, and manual for TECO on my
web page if you wanna look at 'em.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd/teco.

Enjoy.

Adrian

WWW    WWW Adrian Gothard                 
WWW ww WWW White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW 			
WWWW  WWWW rot13 to reply: juq@mrgarg.pb.hx
---
Designers of GPS-based satellite tracking systems for vehicles

######

From: Chris Csernica <csernica@ihwy.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:56:35 -0800
Organization: Lockheed Martin Corporation
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"Ag@Whd" wrote:
> 
> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
> nxk3@nile.scl.cwru.edu scribbled these words:
> 
> >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
> >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
> >
> >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
> >like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
> >have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)

Sorry to quote a quote, but the original post scrolled.

Believe it or not, TECO still ships with the current version of VMS, and
you still get a manual for it if you buy the printed documentation set. 
(It's the manual for TECO on a PDP-11, but it really hasn't changed
much.)

-- Chris Csernica

######

From: "Ag@Whd" <whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:42:03 +0000
Organization: White Horse Design
Reply-To: whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet
Message-ID: <a40n5sgv0butjquljv4j0meell1sipjpq0@4ax.com>
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:56:35 -0800, Chris Csernica <csernica@ihwy.com>
scribbled these words:

>> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
>> nxk3@nile.scl.cwru.edu scribbled these words:
>> 
>> >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>> >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
>> >
>> >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
>
>Believe it or not, TECO still ships with the current version of VMS, and
>you still get a manual for it if you buy the printed documentation set. 
>(It's the manual for TECO on a PDP-11, but it really hasn't changed
>much.)

Really?
Does it still run in PDP11 compatibility mode and thrash the CPU?

Adrian

WWW    WWW Adrian Gothard                 
WWW ww WWW White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW 			
WWWW  WWWW rot13 to reply: juq@mrgarg.pb.hx
---
Designers of GPS-based satellite tracking systems for vehicles

######

From: Charles Richmond <richmond@plano.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 02:35:54 +0000
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <385C448A.13086DE8@plano.net>
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Ag@Whd wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:56:35 -0800, Chris Csernica <csernica@ihwy.com>
> scribbled these words:
> 
> >> On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
> >> nxk3@nile.scl.cwru.edu scribbled these words:
> >>
> >> >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
> >> >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
> >> >
> >> >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
> >
> >Believe it or not, TECO still ships with the current version of VMS, and
> >you still get a manual for it if you buy the printed documentation set.
> >(It's the manual for TECO on a PDP-11, but it really hasn't changed
> >much.)
> 
> Really?
> Does it still run in PDP11 compatibility mode and thrash the CPU?
> 
I am *not* sure if compatibility mode is supported any more.  Anyway,
some enterprising DEC engineer re-wrote TECO in 32-bit so that it
would be included in the then future releases of VMS.  (I just read
this somewhere, but I have *no* details.  Anyone???)

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

From: gleason@mwk.com (Lee K. Gleason)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Message-ID: <AkG6ha+PfjbQ@mwk>
Date: 20 Dec 99 08:41:04 CST
References: <38342038.518374923@news.shef.ac.uk> <385DF4DF.F83A5455@netinsight.net>
Organization: M. W. Kellogg, Houston TX
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In article <385DF4DF.F83A5455@netinsight.net>, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> writes:
> Charles Richmond wrote:
>>
>> I am *not* sure if compatibility mode is supported any more.  Anyway,
>> some enterprising DEC engineer re-wrote TECO in 32-bit so that it
>> would be included in the then future releases of VMS.  (I just read
>> this somewhere, but I have *no* details.  Anyone???)
> 
> Compatibility mode don't exist on most VAXen. A PDP-11 emulator is
> available
> for those who have a need for that stuff, and have newer hardware.
> It's a separate product though, along with the rest of
> RSX-compatibility.
> 
  THere was a time, after RSX compatibility mode software was no longer
included with VMS, but most VAXen still had the hardware for it, that
TECO was shipped as an "image" that knew how to go into compatibility
mode all by itself, without the support of the RSX emulation software
component. THat was one strange image indeed...

Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
gleason@insync.net

######

Message-ID: <385DF4DF.F83A5455@netinsight.net>
From: Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net>
Organization: Net Insight AB
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I)
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Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
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Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> I am *not* sure if compatibility mode is supported any more.  Anyway,
> some enterprising DEC engineer re-wrote TECO in 32-bit so that it
> would be included in the then future releases of VMS.  (I just read
> this somewhere, but I have *no* details.  Anyone???)

Compatibility mode don't exist on most VAXen. A PDP-11 emulator is
available
for those who have a need for that stuff, and have newer hardware.
It's a separate product though, along with the rest of
RSX-compatibility.

TECO was "rewritten" in the VMS V4 timeframe, when the first VAXen
without
compatibility showed up (MicroVAX II).

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist             |  johnny.billquist@netinsight.net
Net Insight AB               |  phone:  +46 8 685 04 88
Västberga Allé 9             |  fax:    +46 8 685 04 20
Box 42093                    |
SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden  |  http://www.netinsight.net

######

From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 20 Dec 1999 20:14:52 GMT
Organization: Daedalus Consulting
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <945760273.650821@shelley.paradise.net.nz>
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Johnny Billquist  <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
>TECO was "rewritten" in the VMS V4 timeframe, when the first VAXen
>without compatibility showed up (MicroVAX II).

TECO32 didn't show up until V5.0.  TECO11 was hacked for V4 or
thereabouts so that it didn't need the RSX AME (Application Migration
Executive, basically glue to allow an RSX image to run under VMS) to
run, as the AME was unbundled in V4, but it still needed either a VAX
with compatibility mode (ie VAX-11/7xx or VAX 86x0) or the VAX RSX
product which included the pdp11 emulator along with the AME and a bunch
of RSX stuff. 

-- don

######

From: "donald tees" <donald@willmack.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:39:59 -0500
Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services
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Lee K. Gleason wrote in message ...
>In article <385DF4DF.F83A5455@netinsight.net>, Johnny Billquist
<johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> writes:
>> Charles Richmond wrote:
>>>
>>> I am *not* sure if compatibility mode is supported any more.  Anyway,
>>> some enterprising DEC engineer re-wrote TECO in 32-bit so that it
>>> would be included in the then future releases of VMS.  (I just read
>>> this somewhere, but I have *no* details.  Anyone???)
>>
>> Compatibility mode don't exist on most VAXen. A PDP-11 emulator is
>> available
>> for those who have a need for that stuff, and have newer hardware.
>> It's a separate product though, along with the rest of
>> RSX-compatibility.
>>
>  THere was a time, after RSX compatibility mode software was no longer
>included with VMS, but most VAXen still had the hardware for it, that
>TECO was shipped as an "image" that knew how to go into compatibility
>mode all by itself, without the support of the RSX emulation software
>component. THat was one strange image indeed...
>
Knowing Teco, it was probably a Teco Macro on its own binary.

Interesting question.  How do you design a "virtual machine"?  Java style
psuedo code is one possibility.  Are there others?

######

From: ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 22 Dec 1999 11:42:54 GMT
Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany)
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In article <83mooj$6tq$1@news.igs.net>,
	"donald tees" <donald@willmack.com> writes:

> Interesting question.  How do you design a "virtual machine"?  Java style
> psuedo code is one possibility.  Are there others?

As long as it is allowed to look like the real CPU, and you have two levels of
privilege (e.g., "user" and "kernel"), it's easier.

Basically, the VM system emulates the priviledged instructions (e.g. i/o
access, system call) for the emulated machine. This way you can run 
N operating systems, not necessarily the same, on one cpu. 

I guess (don't know) thats what IBM VM does, and I know that Motorola
advertized this in hm... was it the 68000 manual?

Regards,
	-is
-- 
 * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
   smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
   smart terminals.  -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

######

From: Juergen Nickelsen <jnickelsen@acm.org>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 27 Dec 1999 12:32:56 +0100
Organization: Private site running FreeBSD
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ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) writes:

[VM]
> I guess (don't know) thats what IBM VM does, and I know that
> Motorola advertized this in hm... was it the 68000 manual?

The 68000 was not fully virtualizable (reading the complete status
register was not a privileged instruction), so it must have been the 
680x0 with x >= 1.

-- 
Juergen Nickelsen

######

From: john@polo.demon.co.uk (John Winters)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 28 Dec 1999 19:18:53 -0000
Organization: The Linux Emporium
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In article <x766xkaaaf.fsf@goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de>,
Juergen Nickelsen  <jnickelsen@acm.org> wrote:
>ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) writes:
>
>[VM]
>> I guess (don't know) thats what IBM VM does, and I know that
>> Motorola advertized this in hm... was it the 68000 manual?
>
>The 68000 was not fully virtualizable (reading the complete status
>register was not a privileged instruction), so it must have been the 
>680x0 with x >= 1.

The "M68000 16/32 bit microprocessor programmer's reference manual"
4th edition which I have makes reference to this change being implemented
in the 68010 so it sounds like you're both right.

John
-- 
John Winters.  Wallingford, Oxon, England.

The Linux Emporium - the source for Linux CDs in the UK
See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/

######

From: Eric Chomko <chomko@IDT.NET>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: The control key where God meant it to be)
Date: 29 Dec 1999 17:05:51 GMT
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Ag@Whd <whd@catalpa.zetnet.zet> wrote:
: On 29 Nov 1999 19:42:30 GMT, nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami)
: nxk3@nile.scl.cwru.edu scribbled these words:

: >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:49:48 +0100, Johnny Billquist <johnny.billquist@netinsight.net> wrote:
: >> No, TECO rules! Nothing beats TECO! :-)
: >
: >Tell me more!  What was it like?  Crappy and modal like vi, or more
: >like modern emacsen?  From the little (scary) TECO code I've seen, I
: >have to ask: was it usable over a noisy line?  ;-)

: I've posted the sources ('C') PC executables, and manual for TECO on my
: web page if you wanna look at 'em.

And all this time I thought TECO was special metal supports for decks and
stairs.

Eric


: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd/teco.

: Enjoy.

: Adrian

: WWW    WWW Adrian Gothard                 
: WWW ww WWW White Horse Design
: WWWWWWWWWW 			
: WWWW  WWWW rot13 to reply: juq@mrgarg.pb.hx
: ---
: Designers of GPS-based satellite tracking systems for vehicles