From: Warren Young Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700 Organization: CyberPort Station Lines: 4 Message-ID: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 56k193-119.cyberport.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: macaw.cyberport.com 942217782 3173 204.134.119.193 (10 Nov 1999 07:09:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cyberport.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 1999 07:09:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.136.4.MISMATCH!feeder.swcp.com!198.59.115.31.MISMATCH!news.cyberport.com!not-for-mail ...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape drive". -- = Warren -- ICBM Address: 36.8274040 N, 108.0204086 W, alt. 1714m ###### From: David M. Razler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:43:26 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.65.7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 942335053 11998 12.79.65.7 (11 Nov 1999 15:44:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 1999 15:44:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote: | In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, | TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) writes: | [...] | > Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as | > its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used | > to adjust the volume control when the machine was having | > trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any | > good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were | > working better. - Tony | | Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the | standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that | didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette | port. | | And yes, adjusting the volume did help. The modem in the computer that | decoded the data worked best if the signal was of a certain strength. If | it had trouble reading a block it was common to try again at a different | volume. Hey, I used a reel-to-reel plugged into a LEASCO modem connected to an ASR-33 for backup in 1970 (and discovered just how badly most 3M High School model RtoRs were when it came to wow and flutter) dmr David M. Razler david.razler@worldnet.att.net ###### From: TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:13:51 GMT Organization: None Lines: 12 Message-ID: <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> Reply-To: TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700, Warren Young wrote: >...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape >drive". Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used to adjust the volume control when the machine was having trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were working better. - Tony ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:41 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 942328993 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk26.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.usit.net!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) writes: [...] > Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as > its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used > to adjust the volume control when the machine was having > trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any > good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were > working better. - Tony Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette port. And yes, adjusting the volume did help. The modem in the computer that decoded the data worked best if the signal was of a certain strength. If it had trouble reading a block it was common to try again at a different volume. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "You'll have to excuse me. There are five | Work: dg@tao-group.com | things I need to do today, all of them | Play: dgiven@iname.com | annoying." --- Susan Ivanova +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:32:57 GMT Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article , dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, > TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) writes: > [...] >> Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as >> its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used >> to adjust the volume control when the machine was having >> trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any >> good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were >> working better. - Tony > > Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the > standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that > didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette > port. > > And yes, adjusting the volume did help. The modem in the computer that > decoded the data worked best if the signal was of a certain strength. If > it had trouble reading a block it was common to try again at a different > volume. I used to be able to fine-tune it to the ideal volume level *by ear*. Hideously slow, though. 2000 baud was about the maximum reliable data rate. A favourite pastime of anyone waiting for a big (50K or so) file to load was, traditionally, reading War and Peace. Twice. Backwards. Rayner ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <01bf2c78$5c06cb30$e12ac222@my0250> From: "Rkazas" Date: 11 Nov 99 13:10:05 CST References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: my0250.mwk.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!mwk!nntp Maybe a bit off-topic ...I'm just load some kind of program from a tape to a synth (from 1983!). When i was 10 i used to have a Tandy CoCo III & the same method was used to load a story telling sumthing (Moby Dick?). It have some spoken parts too. rkazas R Lucas wrote in article ... > In article , > dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > > In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, > > TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) writes: > > [...] > >> Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as > >> its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used > >> to adjust the volume control when the machine was having > >> trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any > >> good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were > >> working better. - Tony > > > > Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the > > standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that > > didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette > > port. > > > > And yes, adjusting the volume did help. The modem in the computer that > > decoded the data worked best if the signal was of a certain strength. If > > it had trouble reading a block it was common to try again at a different > > volume. > > I used to be able to fine-tune it to the ideal volume level *by ear*. > > Hideously slow, though. 2000 baud was about the maximum reliable data > rate. A favourite pastime of anyone waiting for a big (50K or so) > file to load was, traditionally, reading War and Peace. Twice. Backwards. > > Rayner > ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:41:38 GMT Message-ID: <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 942349298 nnrp-07:1056 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Tony Lima wrote: >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700, Warren Young > wrote: >>...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape >>drive". >Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as >its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used >to adjust the volume control when the machine was having >trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any >good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were >working better. - Tony It likely did. If the tape recorder was perfect, there would be a pretty sharp worked/diddn't work boundary. However, with poorer tapes/alignment/tape recorders, the binary waveform recorded, becomes a smeary mess. This can be resolved, sometimes, by carefull adjustment of the tone/graphic equaliser/volume controlls, to smear it back towards the original shape. It's not helped by the fact that most computers of this time used very, very simple "modems", often a couple of TTL gates, with some passive circuitry. -- http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. "The device every conquerer, yes, every altruistic liberator should be required to wear on his shield... is a little girl and her kitten, at ground zero" - Sir Dominic Flandry in Poul Andersons 'A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows' ###### Message-ID: <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> From: charles X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:50 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.145.145.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 942371152 216.145.145.4 (Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:52 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:52 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Ian Stirling wrote: > > Tony Lima wrote: > >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700, Warren Young > > wrote: > > >>...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape > >>drive". > > >Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as > >its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used > >to adjust the volume control when the machine was having > >trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any > >good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were > >working better. - Tony > > It likely did. > If the tape recorder was perfect, there would be a pretty sharp > worked/diddn't work boundary. > However, with poorer tapes/alignment/tape recorders, the binary > waveform recorded, becomes a smeary mess. > This can be resolved, sometimes, by carefull adjustment of the > tone/graphic equaliser/volume controlls, to smear it back towards > the original shape. > It's not helped by the fact that most computers of this time used > very, very simple "modems", often a couple of TTL gates, with some > passive circuitry. > > -- > http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. > -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. > "The device every conquerer, yes, every altruistic liberator should be required > to wear on his shield... is a little girl and her kitten, at ground zero" > - Sir Dominic Flandry in Poul Andersons 'A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows' I remember the fun with my first computer, a SWTPC with a cassette interface useing the "Kansas City/BYTE" standard interface and the MIKEBUG with it terrable overhead giving an effective data rate of maybe 25 or 30 bytes per second. Stick the editer program tape in, go make pot of coffee while it loads. Type in the first try at a progam ,save it to tape. Put in the assembler program tape, make and drink anouther pot of coffee while it loads (hopefully), runs and gives the errors. Start the whole thing over Very long time. Now I get upset if a mutiple Megabyte program takes more than a few seconds to start up. Must be loosing my patience as I grow older. Charles ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Reply-To: wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca Organization: No Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail, Please ! References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Lines: 70 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:12:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.200.60.253 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 942358346 205.200.60.253 (Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:12:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:12:26 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net!not-for-mail In <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling writes: >Tony Lima wrote: >>On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700, Warren Young >> wrote: > >>>...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape >>>drive". > >>Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as >>its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used >>to adjust the volume control when the machine was having >>trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any >>good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were >>working better. - Tony > >It likely did. >If the tape recorder was perfect, there would be a pretty sharp >worked/diddn't work boundary. >However, with poorer tapes/alignment/tape recorders, the binary >waveform recorded, becomes a smeary mess. >This can be resolved, sometimes, by carefull adjustment of the >tone/graphic equaliser/volume controlls, to smear it back towards >the original shape. >It's not helped by the fact that most computers of this time used >very, very simple "modems", often a couple of TTL gates, with some >passive circuitry. I had the misfortune to be involved in the last days of an industrial programmable controller that had a particularly poor form of cassette interface. It used amplitude modulation - big sine wave was a 1, little sine wave was a 0. This was so incredibly sensitive to the setting of the volume control that the user took to leaving a Tektronix oscilliscope full-time at the location of this controller, merely to make sure that the volume control was set right. More rational systems used FM, not AM and were *slightly* more friendly to use. For many years I also used a Honeywell TDC 2000 process control system that kept its mass storage on "digital" audio cassettes - these differed from a standard tape in having an extra keying notch in the case, and little holes to warn the deck of "end of tape". This deck worked remarkably well and the tapes would only fail to load if the drive had gotten particularly filthy - which you could usually remedy with a couple of shots of "Swissh" cleaner. ( The high-end operator station used 8 inch floppies- which probably wouldn't have tolerated the dirt level as well!) Somewhere around here I have an ADPI Phi-Deck, used for a different industrial controller - again, suprisingly reliable, though slow. Allen-Bradley programmable controllers of the PLC 2 variety used either a cartridge drive or else, again, "digital" cassettes in a tape drive mounted in a big aluminum suitcase. This was in the days when a floppy disk drive was quite rare. My favorite program for the KIM-1 was "Hypertape" which let you dump to tape at about 4 or 5 times the built-in monitor cassette routines. Oddly the loading was compatible with the monitor, so you only needed it to store data, not load data. I have a review of one of the original Commodore PET computers in which they show a stone-stock audio cassette recorder that had one corner sawn off and cables fed into the bowels of the PET. *This* was the mass-storage device for the computer, built into the system console. There's now a whole generation of computer users growing up who've never felt that peculiar suspense that always followed the prompt "Press Play On Tape". Bill Shymanski wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca ###### From: Dav_and_Frances_Vandenbroucke@compuserve.com (Dav Vandenbroucke) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:04:31 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-mog-vty90.as.wcom.net X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 942364905 6347 216.192.79.90 (12 Nov 1999 00:01:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1999 00:01:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:41 +0100, dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote: >Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the >standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that >didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette >port. It is now very difficult to find cassette recorders that can be used for the purpose. They need to have microphone, earphone, and remote control jacks. Most cassette recorders have only a built-in microphone, and what is a remote? No, I don't mean a clicker. Dav Vandenbroucke dav_and_frances_vandenbroucke@compuserve.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <01bf2d11$34bb3040$e12ac222@my0250> From: "Rkazas" Date: 12 Nov 99 07:24:12 CST References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com><383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: my0250.mwk.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!info.usuhs.mil!uky.edu!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!mwk!nntp Dav Vandenbroucke wrote in article <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com>... > On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:41 +0100, dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) > wrote: > > >Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the > >standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that > >didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette > >port. > > It is now very difficult to find cassette recorders that can be used > for the purpose. They need to have microphone, earphone, and remote > control jacks. Most cassette recorders have only a built-in > microphone, and what is a remote? No, I don't mean a clicker. > > > Dav Vandenbroucke > dav_and_frances_vandenbroucke@compuserve.com I just bought one that has em' all (ear, mic & remote). Got it at a local (Mexico) RadioShack. (They also sell magnetic tape --1.50 pesos a reel, about $0.15usd but clearly no one in this city will need those anymore) Rkazas ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 12 Nov 1999 10:09:49 +0200 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 942393918 232 194.90.227.168 (12 Nov 1999 08:05:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1999 08:05:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) writes: > In article , > dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > > In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, > > TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) writes: > > [...] > >> Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as > >> its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used > >> to adjust the volume control when the machine was having > >> trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any > >> good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were > >> working better. - Tony > > > > Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the > > standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that > > didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette > > port. > > > > And yes, adjusting the volume did help. The modem in the computer that > > decoded the data worked best if the signal was of a certain strength. If > > it had trouble reading a block it was common to try again at a different > > volume. > > I used to be able to fine-tune it to the ideal volume level *by ear*. I got a dedicated cassette player for my beeb. But I still had to fiddle with the volume for some tapes. And saving to a tape was even more fun! > Hideously slow, though. 2000 baud was about the maximum reliable data > rate. A favourite pastime of anyone waiting for a big (50K or so) > file to load was, traditionally, reading War and Peace. Twice. Backwards. Anybody else remember Level 9's _Snowball_? Before it loaded from the tape, it loaded a short stub. That stub played Vivaldi while the rest of the program loaded. -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 12:12:05 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 X-To: charles Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news charles writes: >I remember the fun with my first computer, a SWTPC with a cassette >interface useing the "Kansas City/BYTE" standard interface and the >MIKEBUG with it terrable overhead giving an effective data rate of maybe >25 or 30 bytes per second. > Stick the editer program tape in, go make pot of coffee while it >loads. Type in the first try at a progam ,save it to tape. > Put in the assembler program tape, make and drink anouther pot of >coffee while it loads (hopefully), runs and gives the errors. Start the >whole thing over Very long time. You mean you don't still do this... I do (occasionally :-) Actually, there were a number of ways to speed this up somewhat. SWTPC tapes recorded the signal in two ways, straight ASCII HEX S1-S9 records and a binary format complete with a short loader in S1-S9 format. Further, if you passed on SWTPC's AC-30 and got a Percom CIS-30+, which would operate at 600 and 1200 baud as well as 300, it would pick up the speed further. I would combine the two methods for long tapes, running the binary format at 1200 baud which gave about an 8-fold increase in speed. The binary format I used was what was used for Interface Age's first Floppy ROM, I never bothered to determine whether this was the same format as SWTPC's. > Now I get upset if a mutiple Megabyte program takes more than a few >seconds to start up. > Must be loosing my patience as I grow older. Ain't it a kick..... Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Kerry Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:54:53 +0000 Organization: Elcontrol Ltd. Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-105.greedy.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Trace: news4.svr.pol.co.uk 942415153 12518 62.136.149.233 (12 Nov 1999 13:59:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1999 13:59:13 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 <08pMPPB+C4XIOHPgfEzomRF7wm> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!elcontrol.freeserve.co.uk!kerry In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, Tony Lima writes >On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700, Warren Young > wrote: > >>...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape >>drive". > >Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as >its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used >to adjust the volume control when the machine was having >trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any >good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were >working better. - Tony I remember one endearing trait of the old Ohio Scientific SuperBoard - if a glitch occurred whilst loading a BASIC program off of tape (this could be observed, as the program being loaded would appear on screen, line-by-line, as if it were being keyed in by a fast typist!), the user could quickly rewind the tape a little, then just press play again. With any luck, after a line or so of garbage, which would be rejected by the SuperBoard as it parsed the input, the loading would carry on as if nothing had happened. Saved having to rewind right to the start of the tape...... Regards, -- Kerry Morris, Weymouth, Dorset, UK ###### From: gaukrogi@aston.ac.uk (Rofi) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 12 Nov 1999 14:33:28 GMT Organization: Aston University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <80h8fo$e6f$2@whatsit.aston.ac.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lacrosse.aston.ac.uk User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!aston!gaukrogi On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:32:57 GMT, R Lucas wrote: >In article , > dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: >> In article <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com>, >> TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) writes: >> [...] >>> Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as >>> its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used >> >> Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the >> standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that >> didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette >> port. >> > >Hideously slow, though. 2000 baud was about the maximum reliable data >rate. A favourite pastime of anyone waiting for a big (50K or so) >file to load was, traditionally, reading War and Peace. Twice. Backwards. > >Rayner Or Juggling. :-) Rofi -- Ifor Gaukroger, Rofi, Eve ... If ? :wq ( d'oh not in vi :-) ) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:44:30 GMT Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article , Ariel Scolnicov writes: [snip] > Anybody else remember Level 9's _Snowball_? Before it loaded from the > tape, it loaded a short stub. That stub played Vivaldi while the rest > of the program loaded. > Really? That's neat. Usually all you had to listen to was the screeching ululations of the data being loaded. Most games had some sort of loading screen, though I always thought it was rather pointless to prolong the loading process with all those graphics. I remember a few games that displayed a countdown on screen while they were loading - was _X-Out_ one of the ones that did this? There was one - the name escapes me - that played "Mastermind" (as in the logic game with the coloured pegs) with you while it loaded. Anyone remember what it was called? Rayner ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:12:03 GMT Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au>, David Rubie writes: > Dav Vandenbroucke wrote: >> >> It is now very difficult to find cassette recorders that can be used >> for the purpose. They need to have microphone, earphone, and remote >> control jacks. Most cassette recorders have only a built-in >> microphone, and what is a remote? No, I don't mean a clicker. You can still find the portable mono cassette decks in a few stores, complete with the remote jack for operating the tape motor. "Killer pokes" was another thread, I know, but on some systems you could make the relay which controlled the tape motor click on and off so fast that the relay would overheat and break. > An easily accessible "Azimuth" adjustment was pretty handy > with some of the audio cassette based systems I mucked > around with. Ohhhh yes. The tape heads tended to drift out of alignment with time on some cassette players. Eventually, you found you could read and write to your own tapes, but no-one else's would work. > I'm wondering whether something like a MiniDisk could > be used instead - some of those have microphone inputs > don't they? It's been done, I believe. I heard of a guy with an Amstrad CPC (Z80-based home micro circa. 1984) transferring all his old tape games to MD. ISTR a minidisc will hold about 67 minutes of sound, which equates to quite a lot of data (~450K, at a quick estimate). Minidiscs should be more reliable than tapes, though. Wonder if you could increase the baud rate without losing reliability? Rayner ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:51:46 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 24 Message-ID: <382C53B2.CBCF362C@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.228.175 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail charles wrote: > > Stick the editer program tape in, go make pot of coffee while it > loads. Type in the first try at a progam ,save it to tape. > Put in the assembler program tape, make and drink anouther pot of > coffee while it loads (hopefully), runs and gives the errors. Start the > whole thing over Very long time. Remember two pass assemblers? Rewind the tape between passes... > Must be loosing my patience as I grow older. > Thank goodness they only had 2k of RAM... -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### From: David Rubie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:09:14 +1100 Organization: Macquarie Bank Ltd. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fx35.macquarie.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!macquarie.com.au!not-for-mail Dav Vandenbroucke wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:41 +0100, dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) > wrote: > > >Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the > >standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit that > >didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a cassette > >port. > > It is now very difficult to find cassette recorders that can be used > for the purpose. They need to have microphone, earphone, and remote > control jacks. Most cassette recorders have only a built-in > microphone, and what is a remote? No, I don't mean a clicker. An easily accessible "Azimuth" adjustment was pretty handy with some of the audio cassette based systems I mucked around with. I'm wondering whether something like a MiniDisk could be used instead - some of those have microphone inputs don't they? dave. -- ------------------------------------------------------- David Rubie "Your brother's dead. Macquarie Bank Ltd. Keep dancing!" drubie@macquarie.com.au (Sean Connery to Kim Basinger, "Never Say Never Again"). ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 12 Nov 99 16:54:18 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1408.985T900T10144225@sky.bus.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-669.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!nntp2.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 In article <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> Dav_and_Frances_Vandenbroucke@compuserve.com (Dav Vandenbroucke) writes: >On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:41 +0100, dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) >wrote: > >>Don't look so surprised. For a long while, cassette storage was the >>standard for 8-bit micros. In fact, it was *unusual* to find an 8-bit >>that didn't have a cassette interface. Even the original IBM PC had a >>cassette port. > >It is now very difficult to find cassette recorders that can be used >for the purpose. They need to have microphone, earphone, and remote >control jacks. Most cassette recorders have only a built-in >microphone, and what is a remote? No, I don't mean a clicker. Time to break out the soldering iron. Although my IMSAI had a cassette interface (before I scraped up the money for floppies), I didn't have any cassette decks lying around. I did have a couple of reel-to-reel machines, though - so I hacked into their motor circuits, built a relay box to control them (those tiny reed relays in the computer weren't designed for 115 volts AC), and away I went. It was pretty nice, actually - I wrote your standard "Abort/Retry/Ignore" routine into my programs, and if I got a read error I could just turn the reels backwards by hand over the offending block and try again. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: Will Salt <9624941@sms.ed.ac.uk> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 20:34:59 +0000 Organization: Edinburgh University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <382C79F3.D61E1ACD@sms.ed.ac.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-74.publab.ed.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scotsman.ed.ac.uk 942447006 24800 129.215.38.74 (12 Nov 1999 22:50:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@scotsman.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1999 22:50:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Tony Lima wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:09:18 -0700, Warren Young > wrote: > > >...you catch yourself thinking of your cassette player as a "tape > >drive". > > Hey, remember the original TRS-80 used a cassette player as > its main magnetic input device! My dad had one -- he used > to adjust the volume control when the machine was having > trouble reading a tape. I have no idea whether it did any > good, but it seemed to make him feel like things were > working better. - Tony I remember trying to use one with an Amstrad CPC in the mid-80s. If the volume was set incorrectly, the machine would report "Read error b" - time to fiddle with the volume, rewind to the start of the block and try again. "Read error a" meant an interruption in the signal, and usually meant the tape had been trashed. I also remember, in about 88 or 89, a games company released a CD which worked in the same way, but with the files recorded at a much higher baud rate. The CD had 30 back-catalogue games on it, and came complete with a cable to attach the machine to your CD-audio player. The user had to skip the CD to the correct track before starting to load it. Will Salt -- ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 12 Nov 1999 23:00:21 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 22 Message-ID: <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: shelley.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 942447621 11512854 203.96.152.26 (12 Nov 1999 23:00:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1999 23:00:21 GMT Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don In article , R Lucas wrote: >"Killer pokes" was another thread, I know, but on some systems you could >make the relay which controlled the tape motor click on and off so fast >that the relay would overheat and break. Would it? Most cassette relays are just simple things -- normally off, energised to turn the relay (and therefore the tape motor) on. Cycling the relay would make a lot of noise as the contact rapidly engaged and disengaged, but electrical heating of the relay's solenoid would be *less* than holding the relay on as it was during a loooonnngggg tape load. I'll admit that the one time I wrote: 10 *MOTOR 1 20 *MOTOR 0 30 GOTO 10 I killed the program fair;y quickly. It really did sound like the computer was going to self destruct... -- don ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Reply-To: wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca Organization: No Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail, Please ! References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Lines: 42 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 23:51:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.200.59.132 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 942450719 205.200.59.132 (Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:51:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:51:59 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net!not-for-mail In <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >In article , R Lucas wrote: >>"Killer pokes" was another thread, I know, but on some systems you could >>make the relay which controlled the tape motor click on and off so fast >>that the relay would overheat and break. > >Would it? Most cassette relays are just simple things -- normally off, >energised to turn the relay (and therefore the tape motor) on. Cycling >the relay would make a lot of noise as the contact rapidly engaged and >disengaged, but electrical heating of the relay's solenoid would be >*less* than holding the relay on as it was during a loooonnngggg tape >load. > >I'll admit that the one time I wrote: > > 10 *MOTOR 1 > 20 *MOTOR 0 > 30 GOTO 10 > >I killed the program fair;y quickly. It really did sound like the >computer was going to self destruct... > >-- don Aggh. That program is 3 times the size it needs to be. What's wrong with 10 MOTOR: GOTO 10 which on the original IBM PC would produce a mosquito-like whine from the cassette relay ? Sure it would probably break eventually...but it wasn't like anyone was going to miss it. I like to point at the cassette port as the only feature of the IBM PC that was so ugly that it never was cloned. And as far as I can tell, the ONLY questionable design feature of the IBM PC that was never cloned; every other glitch and bug was faithfully reproduced. Bill ( who dreads the onslaught of messages about clone PCs with cassette ports and aftermarket cassette interface cards you could add to an XT.) ###### From: jvarela@mind-spring.com (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Nov 1999 02:28:17 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.4a.f5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.50 Beta 1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:12:03, ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) wrote: > "Killer pokes" was another thread, I know, but on some systems you could > make the relay which controlled the tape motor click on and off so fast > that the relay would overheat and break. I had some game program for the TRS-80 Model I that clicked the relay to synthesize (barely) understandable voice. After being suitably amazed I turned the feature off to preserve the relay. -- John Varela to e-mail, remove - between mind and spring ###### From: nailed_barnacle Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 07:07:49 +0000 Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 29 Message-ID: <382D0E44.C3691739@hotmail.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 942476906 42120 194.154.98.206 (13 Nov 1999 07:08:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1999 07:08:26 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!not-for-mail R Lucas wrote: > --snip-- > > > I'm wondering whether something like a MiniDisk could > > be used instead - some of those have microphone inputs > > don't they? > > It's been done, I believe. I heard of a guy with an Amstrad CPC (Z80-based > home micro circa. 1984) transferring all his old tape games to MD. ISTR a > minidisc will hold about 67 minutes of sound, which equates to quite a lot > of data (~450K, at a quick estimate). > > Minidiscs should be more reliable than tapes, though. Wonder if you could > increase the baud rate without losing reliability? > > Rayner Interesting - I wonder what the compression algorithms do to the signal? They don't tend to care much about phase response, just frequency content over a short time frame - though I have no details on MD format to hand. Maybe there's so little info on the tape (in audio terms) that it can concentrate on the signal only without too much trashing? Barnacle ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Nov 1999 08:38:12 +0200 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 942474822 25719 194.90.227.168 (13 Nov 1999 06:33:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1999 06:33:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) writes: > In article , > Ariel Scolnicov writes: > > [snip] > > > Anybody else remember Level 9's _Snowball_? Before it loaded from the > > tape, it loaded a short stub. That stub played Vivaldi while the rest > > of the program loaded. > > > > Really? That's neat. Usually all you had to listen to was the screeching > ululations of the data being loaded. Most games had some sort of loading > screen, though I always thought it was rather pointless to prolong the > loading process with all those graphics. This is perhaps somewhat late to give a technical tip, but on some tape recorders plugging in an `earphone' jack disconnects the internal speaker. This leaves the problem of how to adjust volume, but at least you don't hear the screeches. The music was played from memory, not tape. >[...] Never heard of those other games, and it's probably too late now :-( -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:50:14 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 19 Message-ID: <382D4266.1A5D4CD0@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.229.114 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!newspeer.ebone.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.tli.de!noris.net!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail R Lucas wrote: > > Ohhhh yes. The tape heads tended to drift out of alignment with time on > some cassette players. Eventually, you found you could read and write to > your own tapes, but no-one else's would work. > And if you "corrected" it, you could read everybody else's but not your own... -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Nov 1999 13:28:56 +0200 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: selena.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 942492269 28128 194.90.227.168 (13 Nov 1999 11:24:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1999 11:24:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!grolier!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca writes: > In <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > >[...] > >I'll admit that the one time I wrote: > > > > 10 *MOTOR 1 > > 20 *MOTOR 0 > > 30 GOTO 10 > > > >I killed the program fair;y quickly. It really did sound like the > >computer was going to self destruct... > > > >-- don > > Aggh. That program is 3 times the size it needs to be. What's wrong > with > > 10 MOTOR: GOTO 10 That it doesn't run on a BBC Micro? The first _probably_ wouldn't run on an IBM PC, because of the splats. > which on the original IBM PC would produce a mosquito-like whine from > the cassette relay ? Sure it would probably break eventually...but it wasn't > like anyone was going to miss it. > [...] -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Reply-To: wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca Organization: No Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail, Please ! References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Lines: 46 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:27:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.200.59.83 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 942510438 205.200.59.83 (Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:27:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:27:18 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net!not-for-mail In , Ariel Scolnicov writes: >wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca writes: > >> In <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >> >[...] >> >I'll admit that the one time I wrote: >> > >> > 10 *MOTOR 1 >> > 20 *MOTOR 0 >> > 30 GOTO 10 >> > >> >I killed the program fair;y quickly. It really did sound like the >> >computer was going to self destruct... >> > >> >-- don >> >> Aggh. That program is 3 times the size it needs to be. What's wrong >> with >> >> 10 MOTOR: GOTO 10 > >That it doesn't run on a BBC Micro? The first _probably_ wouldn't run >on an IBM PC, because of the splats. > >> which on the original IBM PC would produce a mosquito-like whine from >> the cassette relay ? Sure it would probably break eventually...but it wasn't >> like anyone was going to miss it. >> [...] > >-- >Ariel Scolnicov You know, somewhere around here I have a rather thick book that explains differences between about 20 varities of BASIC - and this book was published slightly before the era of " a different 6502-based home computer reviewed every month" that the magazines went through in the early '80s. There are probably more surviving BBC micros left in daily use than PCs with cassette ports, so, by the inexorable logic of the marketplace, the 3 line version is probably definitive. Bill wtshyman@NOUCE.sympatico.mb.ca ###### From: rsteenw@xs4all.nl (Mostly Harmless) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Nov 1999 19:23:52 GMT Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dc2-isdn1478.dial.xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 942521032 4933 194.109.153.198 (13 Nov 1999 19:23:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1999 19:23:52 GMT X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.50 Beta 1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:44:30, ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) wrote: }In article , } Ariel Scolnicov writes: } }[snip] } }> Anybody else remember Level 9's _Snowball_? Before it loaded from the }> tape, it loaded a short stub. That stub played Vivaldi while the rest }> of the program loaded. Now that you mention it... I don't recall the game, but I think I still have it (or another, employing a similar loader) around. }Really? That's neat. Usually all you had to listen to was the screeching A 2MHz 6502 with a dedicated sound chip wouldn't exactly be CPU-bound loading cassette data at some 1k/sec... }ululations of the data being loaded. Most games had some sort of loading }screen, though I always thought it was rather pointless to prolong the }loading process with all those graphics. Not just that. There were quite a few games for the Acorn BBC (and I suppose for most of the other popular machines back then) that just *needed* their own loader, for several reasons. For instance, move the loader with some run-once setup routines into a memory area that's later used as data space by the actual program, to increase usable memory. IIRC, Adventure ("you're in a maze of little twisty passages, all alike") was such a program. -- // Rik Steenwinkel (Mostly Harmless) // Enschede, Netherlands ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Nov 1999 22:10:50 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 42 Message-ID: <942570509.106952@shelley.paradise.net.nz> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shelley.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 942531050 11626934 203.96.152.26 (13 Nov 1999 22:10:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1999 22:10:50 GMT Cache-Post-Path: shelley.paradise.net.nz!unknown@203-96-144-16.cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don In article , wrote: >In , Ariel Scolnicov writes: >>wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca writes: >>> In <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >>> > 10 *MOTOR 1 >>> > 20 *MOTOR 0 >>> > 30 GOTO 10 >>> Aggh. That program is 3 times the size it needs to be. What's wrong >>> with >>> 10 MOTOR: GOTO 10 >> >>That it doesn't run on a BBC Micro? The first _probably_ wouldn't run >>on an IBM PC, because of the splats. > >You know, somewhere around here I have a rather thick book that explains >differences between about 20 varities of BASIC - and this book was published >slightly before the era of " a different 6502-based home computer reviewed every >month" that the magazines went through in the early '80s. *MOTOR isn't a BBC BASIC keyword. It's an OS command, and the '*' in BBC BASIC just says "sling the rest of the line at the OS command interpreter (OSCLI)". So 10 *MOTOR 1 : *MOTOR 0 : GOTO 10 wouldn't have worked -- it would have handed "MOTOR 1 : *MOTOR 0 : GOTO 10" to OSCLI, which wouldn't have done much with it, and terminated. (I'm not sure exactly what OSCLI would have done with this; it probably executed the "MOTOR 1" and ignored the rest.) I could have used: 10 OSCLI "MOTOR 1" : OSCLI "MOTOR 0" : GOTO 10 but I didn't. *MOTOR by itself IIRC, was equivalent to *MOTOR 0, not a toggle. The Beeb tended to use explicit settings rather than toggles, which IMAO, was a Good Thing. -- don ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Nov 1999 17:44:25 -0600 Organization: Hey Pal - Organize This! Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.novia.net.MISMATCH!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:50 -0600, charles wrote: >I remember the fun with my first computer, a SWTPC with a cassette >interface useing the "Kansas City/BYTE" standard interface and the >MIKEBUG with it terrable overhead giving an effective data rate of maybe >25 or 30 bytes per second. > Stick the editer program tape in, go make pot of coffee while it >loads. Type in the first try at a progam ,save it to tape. > Put in the assembler program tape, make and drink anouther pot of >coffee while it loads (hopefully), runs and gives the errors. Start the >whole thing over Very long time. But the TRS-80 brought forth the marvelous improvement that the editor and assembler were combined into one program (the Editor/Assember!), so you loaded, typed/loaded your source, saved your source, assembled, saved your object, exited the Editor/Assembler, ran your object, then re-loaded the E/A and started all over again. All this with a 500 baud audio cassette system. I'm still amazed at how much I got done. I wrote games, utilities, patched the O/S, etc. Dave ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:56:29 -0500 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.6 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!195.224.165.20.MISMATCH!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Dave wrote: : On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:50 -0600, charles wrote: : But the TRS-80 brought forth the marvelous improvement that the editor : and assembler were combined into one program (the Editor/Assember!), : so you loaded, typed/loaded your source, saved your source, assembled, : saved your object, exited the Editor/Assembler, ran your object, then : re-loaded the E/A and started all over again. All this with a 500 : baud audio cassette system. SWTPC did have CO-RES, which had the editor and assembler in memory all at once and this was about 1975. People who bought TSC's tape versions of their editor, assembler and program relocator also got instructions on how to relocate the editor and assembler so both could be in memory at once. SWTPC's AC-30 audio cassette interface was, I think, the only commercial product that actually implemented the infamous Byte/Kansas City audio tape standard, which was so many cycles of 1200 Hz for a 0 and 2400 Hz for a 1. SWTPC used Motorola's Mikbug ROM from their evaluation chip set and the Motorola tape format to load programs. The tape format coded bytes as hexadecimal values in ASCII characters with load addresses, byte counts and checksums so the overhead was rather high. Audio tape was painfully unreliable so I generally saved several copies of the same program to be sure of having one good copy. On a folkloric note, the CO-RES out of memory error message was a short and sweet "no core". ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Reply-To: wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca Organization: No Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail, Please ! References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942570509.106952@shelley.paradise.net.nz> X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Lines: 57 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:54:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.200.59.129 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 942544474 205.200.59.129 (Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:54:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:54:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net!not-for-mail In <942570509.106952@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >In article , > wrote: >>In , Ariel Scolnicov writes: >>>wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca writes: >>>> In <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >>>> > 10 *MOTOR 1 >>>> > 20 *MOTOR 0 >>>> > 30 GOTO 10 >>>> Aggh. That program is 3 times the size it needs to be. What's wrong >>>> with >>>> 10 MOTOR: GOTO 10 >>> >>>That it doesn't run on a BBC Micro? The first _probably_ wouldn't run >>>on an IBM PC, because of the splats. >> >>You know, somewhere around here I have a rather thick book that explains >>differences between about 20 varities of BASIC - and this book was published >>slightly before the era of " a different 6502-based home computer reviewed every >>month" that the magazines went through in the early '80s. > >*MOTOR isn't a BBC BASIC keyword. It's an OS command, and the '*' in >BBC BASIC just says "sling the rest of the line at the OS command >interpreter (OSCLI)". So > > 10 *MOTOR 1 : *MOTOR 0 : GOTO 10 > >wouldn't have worked -- it would have handed "MOTOR 1 : *MOTOR 0 : GOTO 10" >to OSCLI, which wouldn't have done much with it, and terminated. (I'm not >sure exactly what OSCLI would have done with this; it probably executed >the "MOTOR 1" and ignored the rest.) > >I could have used: > > 10 OSCLI "MOTOR 1" : OSCLI "MOTOR 0" : GOTO 10 > >but I didn't. > >*MOTOR by itself IIRC, was equivalent to *MOTOR 0, not a toggle. The >Beeb tended to use explicit settings rather than toggles, which IMAO, >was a Good Thing. > >-- don Neat. BBC Micros are rare in this part of the world ( Manitoba, Canada) for obvious reasons. Too bad CBC didn't pick up the series and the machines and run them here. I believe the IBM PCish way of handing a command to a DOS shell was something like SHELL "string with DOS commands in it" but I never wrote anything in BASIC for the PC that was complicated enough to need this. I've always distrusted commands that were toggles; I used to have a terrible time with telnet due to this, till I'd figured out how to set it up properly in the first place. Bill ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:35:55 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 40 Message-ID: <382EC8CB.6A18503B@prescienttech.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fSdzoRCP8OUyPBSWbWlCRniUrWBXCL3L5hKc20A7hxk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 1999 14:35:58 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail William Hamblen, in article nr. wrote: > > Dave wrote: > : On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:50 -0600, charles > : wrote: > > : But the TRS-80 brought forth the marvelous improvement that the > : editor and assembler were combined into one program (the > : Editor/Assember!), so you loaded, typed/loaded your source, saved > : your source, assembled, saved your object, exited the Editor/ > : Assembler, ran your object, then re-loaded the E/A and started all > : over again. > > SWTPC did have CO-RES, which had the editor and assembler in memory > all at once and this was about 1975. Integrated development environments have been around since, at least, the early '60s. The oldest one I have experience with is DIAL which ran on LINCs in '62 and, later on, on LINC-8s and PDP-12s. DIAL didn't use cassettes, but rather LINCtape which was a block- addressable 3/4" wide formatted tape. The editor was remarkable in that positioning the cursor was done through knobs connected to A/D converters; the effect is eerily similar to using a mouse in certain ways. > On a folkloric note, the CO-RES out of memory error message was a > short and sweet "no core". DIAL has only a single error, even simpler than CO-RES's. All DIAL would do is place the word "NO" in the center of the screen. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 14 Nov 99 13:25:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <80mhnq$pq7$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382EC8CB.6A18503B@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: AkQVchANSWcSdc/ix73HTAp7IaWf8NWNAMHd6GmyJ+A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 1999 14:42:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!d1 In article <382EC8CB.6A18503B@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >William Hamblen, in article nr. >wrote: >> >> Dave wrote: >> : On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:45:50 -0600, charles >> : wrote: >> >> : But the TRS-80 brought forth the marvelous improvement that the >> : editor and assembler were combined into one program (the >> : Editor/Assember!), so you loaded, typed/loaded your source, saved >> : your source, assembled, saved your object, exited the Editor/ >> : Assembler, ran your object, then re-loaded the E/A and started all >> : over again. >> >> SWTPC did have CO-RES, which had the editor and assembler in memory >> all at once and this was about 1975. > > Integrated development environments have been around since, at least, >the early '60s. The oldest one I have experience with is DIAL which >ran on LINCs in '62 and, later on, on LINC-8s and PDP-12s. > > DIAL didn't use cassettes, but rather LINCtape which was a block- >addressable 3/4" wide formatted tape. The editor was remarkable in >that positioning the cursor was done through knobs connected to A/D >converters; the effect is eerily similar to using a mouse in certain >ways. Horrors! I would have created a lot more swear words if I had to deal with that...knobs indeed [shuddering emoticon suddenly hit with memories of etch-a-sketch]. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: mbu@privat.kkf.net (Mark Bulmahn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:43:46 +0100 Organization: MyHome Lines: 25 Sender: mark@deepthought.deadend Message-ID: <2qam08.ec.ln@deepthought.deadend> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> Reply-To: mbu@privat.kkf.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.63.42.28 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 942583888 1121327 212.63.42.28 (16 [1367]) X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.63.42.28!not-for-mail In article , ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) writes: >> I'm wondering whether something like a MiniDisk could >> be used instead - some of those have microphone inputs >> don't they? > > It's been done, I believe. I heard of a guy with an Amstrad CPC (Z80-based > home micro circa. 1984) transferring all his old tape games to MD. ISTR a > minidisc will hold about 67 minutes of sound, which equates to quite a lot > of data (~450K, at a quick estimate). I just read de.alt.folklore.computers (a german equivalent to this group). Some guys are offering CD-Rs with software for the KC80, an east german micro from the 80s. There are no ZIP files on the CD but audio tracks ;). So you can plug your micro to the CD player and read the data. Recording was done with a simple PC. Just imagine: a datasette with a Intel Pentium III/500. ROTFL. > Minidiscs should be more reliable than tapes, though. Wonder if you could > increase the baud rate without losing reliability? Perhaps there will be some problem with the compression algorithms? Mark. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:43:40 GMT Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > In article , R Lucas wrote: >>"Killer pokes" was another thread, I know, but on some systems you could >>make the relay which controlled the tape motor click on and off so fast >>that the relay would overheat and break. > > Would it? Most cassette relays are just simple things -- normally off, > energised to turn the relay (and therefore the tape motor) on. Cycling > the relay would make a lot of noise as the contact rapidly engaged and > disengaged, but electrical heating of the relay's solenoid would be > *less* than holding the relay on as it was during a loooonnngggg tape > load. I admit I don't know if it was actually overheating or not, but it was definitely possible to break them that way. Could be just simple over-use, I suppose. I heard of a particularly unlucky assembly language programmer who killed his tape relay in just this fashion (some buggy code that caused the cycling of the relay, left running for too long... ouch). I'm told there were demos/display hacks which used the relay to provide a "drum beat" to go along with music played through the computer's sound chip. Although sadly I've never seen it done. Rayner ###### From: Paul Grayson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:45:48 +0000 Organization: Shed Liberation Front Lines: 35 Message-ID: <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p59-curlew-gui.tch.virgin.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 942622118 26657 194.168.60.59 (14 Nov 1999 23:28:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 1999 23:28:38 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!u-2.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!shippo.virgin.net!nobody > > But the TRS-80 brought forth the marvelous improvement that the editor > and assembler were combined into one program (the Editor/Assember!), > so you loaded, typed/loaded your source, saved your source, assembled, > saved your object, exited the Editor/Assembler, ran your object, then > re-loaded the E/A and started all over again. All this with a 500 > baud audio cassette system. > > I'm still amazed at how much I got done. I wrote games, utilities, > patched the O/S, etc. I had a Sinclair Spectrum assembler that worked in the same way. If you had enough memory there was a version that included both, but for large projects the editor and assemblers could be used at separate components. For really big projects, the code had to be split into separate sections, and each passed through the assembler once using the correct switch to preserve symbol definitions. Once all symbols had been defined, the same had to be done all over again. Each pass would then generate separate tape files, consisting of a small section of code. It was then necessary to load the files into ram one-by-one and save the whole as a single memory block. I'm suprised it worked at all. If there was a tape loading error, the process had to be started again from scratch. Patching the code somewhere was also a nightmare. Then I discovered that some of the Z80 opcodes using the IX and IY registers were assembled in the incorrect order. By that time the manufacturer had ceased trading. -- Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK. No Microsoft code was used in generating this message - can you say the same? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382C79F3.D61E1ACD@sms.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:57:17 GMT Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <382C79F3.D61E1ACD@sms.ed.ac.uk>, Will Salt <9624941@sms.ed.ac.uk> writes: > > I remember trying to use one with an Amstrad CPC in the mid-80s. If the > volume was set incorrectly, the machine would report "Read error b" - > time to fiddle with the volume, rewind to the start of the block and try > again. "Read error a" meant an interruption in the signal, and usually > meant the tape had been trashed. > > I also remember, in about 88 or 89, a games company released a CD which > worked in the same way, but with the files recorded at a much higher > baud rate. The CD had 30 back-catalogue games on it, and came complete > with a cable to attach the machine to your CD-audio player. The user > had to skip the CD to the correct track before starting to load it. > > > Will Salt > -- That was the Codemasters CD games pack. It was developed, tested, advertised, reviewed and raved about by the Amstrad magazines of the day... and then never actually released. Grrrr. Rayner ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:42:56 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <38305430.7230@compuserve.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail R Lucas wrote: > > "Killer pokes" was another thread, I know, but on some systems you could > make the relay which controlled the tape motor click on and off so fast > that the relay would overheat and break. > We managed to use the cassette control relay in a Sol-20 to send data to a Baudot Teletype for hard copy printout. Every so often, the relay would stick closed (too much current), so we'd have to rap it to unstick it. We finally used another switch off of the relay to drive the Teletype. Sam ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:03:17 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5r3p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382b39a2.23757468@news.compuserve.com> <382BCB2A.D9A9EFA8@macquarie.com.au> <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 942688637 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!remarQ60!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <942487082.799800@shelley.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: [...] > I'll admit that the one time I wrote: > > 10 *MOTOR 1 > 20 *MOTOR 0 > 30 GOTO 10 Ow! 10 REPEAT 20 *MOTOR 1 30 *MOTOR 0 40 UNTIL FALSE Faster, too. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "Scuzzy Wuzzy was a bus. | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Scuzzy Wuzzy caused no fuss. | Play: dgiven@iname.com | Scuzzy Wuzzy wasn't SCSI, was he?" +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ --- Jordin Kare ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:08:33 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 23 Message-ID: <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 942688643 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net>, Paul Grayson writes: [...] > If there was a tape loading error, the process had to be started again > from scratch. Patching the code somewhere was also a nightmare. [...] The Spectrum OS tape loading routines didn't have any sort of error recovery. If something failed, it just stopped, dead. The BBC saved its files in blocks. Each block was seperated from the next by some leader tone; inefficient, yes, but you could identify the blocks by ear. If one block didn't load, it let you rewind a bit and try again. This could be an absolute godsend. Some Spectrum programs did their own blocking. _Technician Ted_ rings a bell. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "Scuzzy Wuzzy was a bus. | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Scuzzy Wuzzy caused no fuss. | Play: dgiven@iname.com | Scuzzy Wuzzy wasn't SCSI, was he?" +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ --- Jordin Kare ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 99 17:39:58 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 X-To: William Hamblen Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news William Hamblen writes: >could be in memory at once. SWTPC's AC-30 audio cassette interface >was, I think, the only commercial product that actually implemented >the infamous Byte/Kansas City audio tape standard, which was so many >cycles of 1200 Hz for a 0 and 2400 Hz for a 1. SWTPC used Motorola's >Mikbug ROM from their evaluation chip set and the Motorola tape >format to load programs. The tape format coded bytes as hexadecimal >values in ASCII characters with load addresses, byte counts and >checksums so the overhead was rather high. Audio tape was painfully >unreliable so I generally saved several copies of the same program to >be sure of having one good copy. There was also the PERCOM CIS-30+. It would operate at 30, 60, and 120 cps using the same 1200/2400 Hz signals. For that reason I chose it over the AC-30. In another thread (or maybe it was this one) I just mentioned this and that SWTPC usually porvided their tapes recorded in two different formats, straight S1-S9 ASCII coded hex (two bytes per byte of memory) and a binary format (one byte per byte of memory) preceded with the short binary loader in S1-S9 format. Combining the two (120 cps plus binary format) gave reasonable :-) performance. >On a folkloric note, the CO-RES out of memory error message was a >short and sweet "no core". Interesting! I don't recall that with the SWTPC CO-RES and I would have run into it a lot as at the time my "system" was a D1 kit with 8K of 2102 external. CO-RES would run in 8K but not by much. I could put in a few lines of code (without comments) and get it to compile but that was about it. I had to go the separate editor I still have all this stuff somewhere and am going to have to try it out. You've got me curious! > To drift the topic slightly. Last night I was "mining" for some old PDP-9 paper tapes I thought I had. I didn't find them but what I did find were paper tape copies of a text editor, Fortran Compiler (Fortran II IIRC) and the Fortran run-time system for a PDP-8. This made for a long development cycle particularly with only the ASR33 reader/punch :-) Regards, Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:08:27 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3830764B.1E587FA8@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382EC8CB.6A18503B@prescienttech.com> <80mhnq$pq7$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.229.138 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo1!newspeer.ebone.net!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > Horrors! I would have created a lot more swear words if I > had to deal with that...knobs indeed [shuddering emoticon > suddenly hit with memories of etch-a-sketch]. > I can remember a lot of terminals with "knobs" (little thumb wheels) in the back rooms of my University. I never did find out what they were for... -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:47:35 GMT Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo1!psiuk-p2!uknet!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1>, dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > In article <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net>, > Paul Grayson writes: > [...] >> If there was a tape loading error, the process had to be started again >> from scratch. Patching the code somewhere was also a nightmare. > [...] > > The Spectrum OS tape loading routines didn't have any sort of error > recovery. If something failed, it just stopped, dead. > > The BBC saved its files in blocks. Each block was seperated from the next > by some leader tone; inefficient, yes, but you could identify the blocks > by ear. If one block didn't load, it let you rewind a bit and try again. > This could be an absolute godsend. The Amstrad CPC did something like this, too. Files were saved in 2K blocks with a leader tone. IIRC, the leader tone served to indicate the data speed. This was followed by a short burst of header info. This was reliable, with error checking and everything, but hideously slow. Not many commercial programs ever used it, except for a short block of loader code at the start. This loader would usually bypass the tape firmware completely and listen to the cassette port directly. Lots faster, and more of a challenge for the casual hacker. I once heard that this loader code was often pirated from the Spectrum's ROM routines, with the port addresses changed so it would work on the Amstrad. Can anyone confirm or deny this? BTW, does anyone know why these game loaders caused the characteristic "striping" effect of the screen borders while the data was being read? > Some Spectrum programs did their own blocking. _Technician Ted_ rings a > bell. Ah, _Technician Ted_. Liked the plot, but it was so frustrating! Did *anyone* ever finish it? Rayner ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 16 Nov 1999 11:24:50 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 29 Message-ID: <80reu2$10cc$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <382EC8CB.6A18503B@prescienttech.com> <80mhnq$pq7$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <3830764B.1E587FA8@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul7.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 942751490 33164 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <3830764B.1E587FA8@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, fungus wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Horrors! I would have created a lot more swear words if I >> had to deal with that...knobs indeed [shuddering emoticon >> suddenly hit with memories of etch-a-sketch]. >> > >I can remember a lot of terminals with "knobs" (little thumb wheels) >in the back rooms of my University. I never did find out what they >were for... The knobs on the PDP-12 (which is what BAH is talking about) have the flat side facing you, so that you twist them like the volume control on a stereo. I wouldn't be surprised if the terminals you mentioned were Tektronix graphics terminals. They have two wheels which are used for moving a crosshair, to allow you to pick points on the screen and send the coordinates back to the computer. The purpose is similar to a mouse and the appearance is similar to the bottom of the first mice (which used rollers, not balls). I don't think the Tek termianls had buttons -- you had to use a key on the keyboard for that. Those wheels are bigger than the PDP-12's knobs and have the curved outside facing you... a bit easier to use since you can just slide your hand back and forth. -- Derek ###### From: prs@gol.com (Jacqui or (maybe) Pete) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <38363dc0.4284491@nnrp.gol.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:25:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.43.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 942751505 203.216.43.102 (Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:25:05 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:25:05 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!nnrp.gol.com.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:45:48 +0000, Paul Grayson wrote: This may have been mentioned many times, but the first Sinclaire computer came with a manual that said something like 'while loading the program, you can turn up the volume and listen to what's being sent to the computer. If you can understand it then you are an alien and will go far in the computer industry". ###### From: "Alan O'Hara" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:52:14 -0000 Organization: Nortel Networks Lines: 35 Message-ID: <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pgaly03x.europe.nortel.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed2!btnet!zharh00t.europe.nortel.com!not-for-mail I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders game which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. This is my first post to afc - I must be getting old. Alan R Lucas wrote in message news:FL3Fu6.16o.D.ma@bath.ac.uk... > In article , > Ariel Scolnicov writes: > > [snip] > > > Anybody else remember Level 9's _Snowball_? Before it loaded from the > > tape, it loaded a short stub. That stub played Vivaldi while the rest > > of the program loaded. > > > > Really? That's neat. Usually all you had to listen to was the screeching > ululations of the data being loaded. Most games had some sort of loading > screen, though I always thought it was rather pointless to prolong the > loading process with all those graphics. > > I remember a few games that displayed a countdown on screen while they > were loading - was _X-Out_ one of the ones that did this? > > There was one - the name escapes me - that played "Mastermind" (as in the > logic game with the coloured pegs) with you while it loaded. Anyone > remember what it was called? > > Rayner ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:39:47 GMT Message-ID: <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 942777587 nnrp-13:25392 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root R Lucas wrote: >In article <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1>, > dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: >> In article <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net>, >> Paul Grayson writes: >> [...] >>> If there was a tape loading error, the process had to be started again >>> from scratch. Patching the code somewhere was also a nightmare. >> [...] >> >> The Spectrum OS tape loading routines didn't have any sort of error >> recovery. If something failed, it just stopped, dead. >The Amstrad CPC did something like this, too. Files were saved in 2K >blocks with a leader tone. IIRC, the leader tone served to indicate the >data speed. This was followed by a short burst of header info. >I once heard that this loader code was often pirated from the Spectrum's >ROM routines, with the port addresses changed so it would work on the >Amstrad. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Unlikely, different micros, unless I'm much mistaken. >BTW, does anyone know why these game loaders caused the characteristic >"striping" effect of the screen borders while the data was being read? This was standard spectrum. Dead easy, just bang the bit decoded, into the screen background register. >> Some Spectrum programs did their own blocking. _Technician Ted_ rings a >> bell. -- http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. Two fish in a tank: one says to the other, you know how to drive this thing?? ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:14:36 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3831C93C.C56D32EC@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.228.18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail Ian Stirling wrote: > > >I once heard that this loader code was often pirated from the Spectrum's > >ROM routines, with the port addresses changed so it would work on the > >Amstrad. Can anyone confirm or deny this? > > Unlikely, different micros, unless I'm much mistaken. > I've personally done it... The Amstrad loaders were slow so we stole the ones from the Spectrum and used those instead. We used them on the MSX machines too, and if there'd been any other Z80 machines around I bet we'd have done them too. > >BTW, does anyone know why these game loaders caused the characteristic > >"striping" effect of the screen borders while the data was being read? > > This was standard spectrum. > Dead easy, just bang the bit decoded, into the screen background register. > "Why" was to show that something was happening.... If the border didn't flash, or stopped flashing and the program wasn;t loaded then something was wrong - check your casette cable. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 16 Nov 1999 23:16:59 -0600 Organization: Hey Pal - Organize This! Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail On Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:45:48 +0000, Paul Grayson wrote: >For really big projects, the code had to be split into separate >sections, and each passed through the assembler once using the correct >switch to preserve symbol definitions. Once all symbols had been >defined, the same had to be done all over again. Each pass would then >generate separate tape files, consisting of a small section of code. It >was then necessary to load the files into ram one-by-one and save the >whole as a single memory block. I'm suprised it worked at all. Yeah I remember doing pretty much the same thing on the TRS80, using DEFL as offsets for each module, assembling separately, loading the objects, and punching a final tape with a single module. I too was surprised when it all worked. >No Microsoft code was used in generating this message - can you say the >same? Umm, no - but why would I want to? Using Agent on Win2000 on a laptop here, going out thru a Win2000 Advanced Server sharing a cable modem. No "Open Source" code used here - can you say the same? :-) Dave ###### From: Tom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:24:20 +0000 Organization: None whatsoever Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: black18.ncl.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-feed1.tiac.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!news.ncl.ac.uk!not-for-mail Ian Stirling wrote: > >I once heard that this loader code was often pirated from the Spectrum's > >ROM routines, with the port addresses changed so it would work on the > >Amstrad. Can anyone confirm or deny this? > > Unlikely, different micros, unless I'm much mistaken. But, same processor, same company, quite possibly similar hardware. I believe quite a few games were pretty much ported between the two. The sound would have to change (though the Spectrum 128 and the Amstrad CPC shared the same soundchip), and if you were using the CPC's colour mode (160x256x16?) the graphics would have to change as well. I think the CPC did 2 colours in 640x256 only, but if you didn't mind a strange-looking 256x192 Spectrum screen in the middle and losing all colours you could probably port a game really easily. That's really easily as in "loads easier than rewriting it", of course ;-) I suspect that once a programmer had done this a couple of times, it would prove straightforward to build portability between CPC and Spectrum into a game at the planning stages. > >BTW, does anyone know why these game loaders caused the characteristic > >"striping" effect of the screen borders while the data was being read? > > This was standard spectrum. > Dead easy, just bang the bit decoded, into the screen background register. And as for why, I guess to show you that something _was_ in fact happening. -- --Tom this space filled with | this space not filled with this space filled this intentionally | with this intentionally unintentionally ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:07:59 GMT Message-ID: <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 942876479 nnrp-12:3385 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Alan O'Hara wrote: >I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders >game >which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having >come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. >This is my first post to afc - I must be getting old. I've seen at least a couple of games that do this on the spectrum, but bit rot has set in, and I can't recall the names. -- http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your second shot perfect. -- Robert A Heinlein. ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:29:04 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.228.161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail Ian Stirling wrote: > > Alan O'Hara wrote: > >I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders > >game > >which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having > >come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. > >This is my first post to afc - I must be getting old. > > I've seen at least a couple of games that do this on the spectrum, but > bit rot has set in, and I can't recall the names. > I don't think this would have been possible on the Spectrum. No tricky hardware to help with the timing... Some games did some fairly fany animations by using flashing attributes on the screen, but I doubt very much any of them could play games or do anything interactive. IIRC the C64 loaders used an NMI to read the tape and gave the game whatever CPU time was left over (not much). -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### Message-ID: <38344036.370A0A0E@thinkage.on.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382C53B2.CBCF362C@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:06:46 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 942948350 192.102.11.4 (Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:05:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:05:50 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail fungus wrote: > > charles wrote: > > > > Stick the editer program tape in, go make pot of coffee while it > > loads. Type in the first try at a progam ,save it to tape. > > Put in the assembler program tape, make and drink anouther pot of > > coffee while it loads (hopefully), runs and gives the errors. Start the > > whole thing over Very long time. > > Remember two pass assemblers? Rewind the tape between passes... No, I had to reload the card deck. :-) ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:37:13 GMT Message-ID: <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 942961033 nnrp-02:2438 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root fungus wrote: >Ian Stirling wrote: >> >> Alan O'Hara wrote: >> >I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders >> >game >> >which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having >> >come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. >> >This is my first post to afc - I must be getting old. >> >> I've seen at least a couple of games that do this on the spectrum, but >> bit rot has set in, and I can't recall the names. >> >I don't think this would have been possible on the Spectrum. No tricky >hardware to help with the timing... >Some games did some fairly fany animations by using flashing attributes >on the screen, but I doubt very much any of them could play games or >do anything interactive. It is. I've definately seen it, I had no other computer hardware in the 8 bit age (well, a PCW512 cpm-running word processor, but that had disks) You 'just' replace the busy waits, with precisely timed bits of game, or intersperse bits to sample the tape, at just the right points in the game. SMOP. Hmm, can't seem to find my copy of 'an expert guide to the spectrum', which would probably explain how NMI was broken on the spectrum. IIRC, the z80 in the spectrum ran at 4Mhz, so IIRC, the instruction rate would be 300Khz. If the tape code is inline, you've probably got at least 10 spare instructions between samples. Wonder what the ultimate speed possible, reliably (error correcting) would be on the spectrum. (If you work out the capacity of a tape, using todays soundcards, you get a couple hundred meg on a C120, pessimistically(In brief, a 33K modem gets that over a 4Khz channel. Multiply by 3 for a 12Khz channel, and by 2 for stereo, =180Mb/c120) -- http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. What a wonderfull world it is that has girls in it! -- Robert A Heinlein. ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Message-ID: <383c730a.1319042@news.freeuk.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831C93C.C56D32EC@egg.chips.and.spam.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:45:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.146.109 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp4.clara.net 942961536 212.126.146.109 (Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:45:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:45:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp4.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:14:36 +0100, fungus sprachen: >The Amstrad loaders were slow so we stole the ones from the >Spectrum and used those instead. Did Sinclair ever find out? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why pamper life's complexity, when the leather runs smooth on the passenger seee-eee-aaat? - - - - - - - - greenaum@yahoo.co.uk ###### From: slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:49:37 +0000 Organization: First Sirian Bank Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382EC8CB.6A18503B@prescienttech.com> <80mhnq$pq7$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> <3830764B.1E587FA8@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 942965366 nnrp-11:18002 NO-IDENT hearsay.demon.co.uk:194.222.24.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!hearsay.demon.co.uk!user In article <3830764B.1E587FA8@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, fungus wrote: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > Horrors! I would have created a lot more swear words if I > > had to deal with that...knobs indeed [shuddering emoticon > > suddenly hit with memories of etch-a-sketch]. > > I can remember a lot of terminals with "knobs" (little thumb wheels) > in the back rooms of my University. I never did find out what they > were for... If those were graphical terminals, then the knobs were for positioning the cursor (effectively a cross-hair on the screen). If they were ratchets instead of knobs, they were for single- stepping programs in debug mode. I am not making this up. Simon. -- http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | John Peel: No junk email please. | [My daughter] has modelled herself on you. | Courtney Love: | Oh, I'm so sorry. ###### From: Paul Grayson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:46:54 +0000 Organization: Shed Liberation Front Lines: 34 Message-ID: <383538AE.9B41CBE2@virgin.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p40-crow-gui.tch.virgin.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 943017479 28963 194.168.59.160 (19 Nov 1999 13:17:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 1999 13:17:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!shippo.virgin.net!nobody > Hmm, can't seem to find my copy of 'an expert guide to the spectrum', > which would probably explain how NMI was broken on the spectrum. I don't have a Spectrum at hand any more so this is from memory, and may be incorrect in some details. It must be at least 12 years since I last looked at this. The Z80 would jump to an address on receipt of an NMI - I believe this address was 0058H. When this routine was executed, Spectrum ROM code was supposed to check the value stored elsewhere in memory, and if the value was not zero then jump to that address, otherwise return. Unfortunatly someone got the sign of the flag test incorrect, and the jump was only executed when the address contained zero. Unfortunatly the machine reset code was at 0000H, meaning that on receipt of an NMI, the Spectrum reset. I believe that changing a single bit would have resolved the problem. It was a good idea to write any none random value to the supposed NMI memory jump address to resolve system reset problems, which sometimes happened due to hardware generating NMI interrupts. Ironically this memory address was listed as UNUSED in the table in the original 1982 spectrum owners manual, implying that they knew about the problem when the ROM was initially made. Every other area in this table was listed and named, including some of the more useless ones. Was the cost of ROM chips so prohibitive in those days to prevent recutting the die? -- Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK. No Microsoft code was used in generating this message - can you say the same? ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:58:50 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <154p08.66j.ln@127.0.0.1> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.229.60 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail Tom wrote: > > But, same processor, same company, quite possibly similar hardware. I > believe quite a few games were pretty much ported between the two. The only thing which changed was the graphics (more colors on Amstrad) and the music. All the rest of the code went straight from one machine to the other. Spectrum->MSX ports were often finished before lunchtime. > if you didn't mind a strange-looking 256x192 Spectrum screen in > the middle ...done that as well. The main problem was the game maps, which were usually 32 characters wide. Redoing all the rooms in a game just wasn't worth it. > I suspect that once a programmer had done this a couple of times, it > would prove straightforward to build portability between CPC and > Spectrum into a game at the planning stages. > Yep. All you need is a keyboard and joystick abstraction layer, the graphics reworked to four colors, and the Spectrum 128 version of the music. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### From: michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 19 Nov 1999 20:41:26 GMT Organization: MERANT Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <814clm01kaf@news1.newsguy.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: michael.wojcik@merant.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-306.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@lorelei-n Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww [Hmm... Should really change that subject line, I suppose.] In article <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling writes: > Hmm, can't seem to find my copy of 'an expert guide to the spectrum', > which would probably explain how NMI was broken on the spectrum. Speaking of broken interrupt handling on Z80-based micros... I vaguely remember, sometime in the early 80s after the TRS-80 Model 3 came out, but before 1984 (when we got our first IBM PC), my father and I went to a computer store in western Massachusetts to look at Model 3's that had been modified to run CP/M. The modifications included RAM upgrades (to a then-impressive 64KB) and some kind of motherboard modification which, IIRC, allowed hardware interrupts to work the way CP/M wanted them to. Does anyone have any information on this? I didn't know much about hardware at the time - I was just beginning to get free of BASIC and starting to look at Z80 assembler, as we had Model 3's at school - so I didn't pay much attention to the details. -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) Department of English, Miami University An intense imaginative activity accompanied by a psychological and moral passivity is bound eventually to result in a curbing of the growth to maturity and in consequent artistic repetitiveness and stultification. -- D. S. Savage ###### From: Michael Hinz Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 19 Nov 1999 22:51:03 +0100 Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: michael@farmasi.uit.no NNTP-Posting-Host: padde.farmasi.uit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.uit.no 943260577 8201 129.242.34.155 (22 Nov 1999 08:49:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.uit.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 1999 08:49:37 GMT X-original-NNTP-Posting-Host: stibbons.hinz.no X-original-X-Trace: padde.farmasi.uit.no 943048298 23532 192.168.172.220 (19 Nov 1999 21:51:38 GMT) X-original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 1999 21:51:38 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) XEmacs/21.1 (20 Minutes to Nikko) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!news.uit.no!padde.farmasi.uit.no!not-for-mail wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca writes: > More rational systems used FM, not AM and were *slightly* more friendly to use. Ouch. AM means you need *really* good amplifiers. The big advantage with FM was that the cheaper the tape recorder, the better. And if your waves are not "square" enough, putting the volume to "just before overdrive" should take care of it. > There's now a whole generation of computer users growing up who've never > felt that peculiar suspense that always followed the prompt "Press Play On > Tape". ... and they never heard a tape either. And if they did, all they would say would be "Boy, that must be the slowest modem on earth." FWIW, my Apple ][+ had a tape speed between 2000 and 3000bps (don't remember the actual speed). A TV programme in Germany used to send programs over the audio channel (they called it Hard Bit Rock ;), readable with a special program ported to several homecomputers of that time. That one was capable of unbelievable 4800bps IIRC. Michael -- When all you have is a Swiss Army Knife, every problem looks like email. Peter da Silva in ASR ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Reply-To: wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca Organization: No Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail, Please ! References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <814clm01kaf@news1.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Lines: 43 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:04:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.200.59.111 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 943056297 205.200.59.111 (Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:04:57 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:04:57 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net!not-for-mail In <814clm01kaf@news1.newsguy.com>, michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) writes: > >[Hmm... Should really change that subject line, I suppose.] > >In article <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling writes: >> Hmm, can't seem to find my copy of 'an expert guide to the spectrum', >> which would probably explain how NMI was broken on the spectrum. > >Speaking of broken interrupt handling on Z80-based micros... > >I vaguely remember, sometime in the early 80s after the TRS-80 Model >3 came out, but before 1984 (when we got our first IBM PC), my father >and I went to a computer store in western Massachusetts to look at >Model 3's that had been modified to run CP/M. The modifications >included RAM upgrades (to a then-impressive 64KB) and some kind of >motherboard modification which, IIRC, allowed hardware interrupts >to work the way CP/M wanted them to. > >Does anyone have any information on this? I never had access to one of these, but wasn't one of the modifications to move the system ROMs out of the low end of the address range and replace that with RAM ? CP/M isn't much on handling hardware interrupts by itself, all that is supplied by the CBIOS. There was a mutant version of CP/M that was relocated to allow for ROM in the bottom 4 K of the Z80 address space but I may be confusing the Model 3 with a Heathkit machine, here. Bill Shymanski wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca Non-junk-mail welcomed if you take out the capitals in the address. > > >-- >Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@merant.com >AAI Development, MERANT (block capitals are a company mandate) >Department of English, Miami University uent artistic repetitiveness and stultification. ###### From: l0j1k@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (harlequin..) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 20 Nov 1999 11:29:42 GMT Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8160n6$1ar$2@news.cc.ukans.edu> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.cc.ukans.edu!falcon.cc.ukans.edu!l0j1k On 16 Nov 1999 23:16:59 -0600, when monkeys flew out of your ass, Dave (Nunya@Business.net) hath spake: : >No Microsoft code was used in generating this message - can you say the : >same? : Umm, no - but why would I want to? Using Agent on Win2000 on a laptop : here, going out thru a Win2000 Advanced Server sharing a cable modem. : No "Open Source" code used here - can you say the same? :-) : Dave Me? I'm using nothing but a TI-82, a grotesquely hacked-up digital cordless phone, and a clever implementation of the Vulcan mindmeld. I've got the whole thing duct-taped to my head, so my hands are unnecessary. I lost the hardcopy plans during a particularly painful bout of flammable flatulation, though, and this duct tape hurts to tear off, so replicating the device is pretty much impossible. I *do* apologize for my spammy behavior tonight... -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=->> "Oh Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedos and lock phasers on the Heffalump. Piglet, meet me in transporter room three." "How about a nice game of chess?" -WOPR, Wargames L0j1k@evilspamfalcon.cc.ukans.edu (take out what we all hate, and then you'll find me) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=->> ###### From: kisrael@andante.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 20 Nov 1999 15:17:30 GMT Organization: Tufts University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <816e2a$ggq$2@news3.tufts.edu> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: andante.eecs.tufts.edu X-Trace: news3.tufts.edu 943111050 16922 (None) 130.64.24.24 X-Complaints-To: news@news.tufts.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.umass.edu!world!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!andante!kisrael Alan O'Hara (aoh@nortelnetworks.com) wrote: > I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders > game > which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having > come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. It's a really cool idea- tying in with the 'small games' thread, as well as some of the cooler 'brag screens'/demos by the cracker groups. I think Sony PSX did some of that as well, and then they got better at laying out their CD-ROMs, reducing load time, or something. -- Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com Chanting against Nazism is like drinking for sobriety. --http://www.subatomichumor.com ###### From: Keith Willoughby Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:38:22 +0000 Organization: Flat222 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cowtown.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cowtown.demon.co.uk:194.222.21.6 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 943204080 nnrp-09:22434 NO-IDENT cowtown.demon.co.uk:194.222.21.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cowtown.demon.co.uk!keith In article <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling writes >fungus wrote: > > >>Ian Stirling wrote: >>> >>> Alan O'Hara wrote: >>> >I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders >>> >game >>> >which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having >>> >come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. >>> >This is my first post to afc - I must be getting old. >>> >>> I've seen at least a couple of games that do this on the spectrum, but >>> bit rot has set in, and I can't recall the names. >>> > >>I don't think this would have been possible on the Spectrum. No tricky >>hardware to help with the timing... >It is. >I've definately seen it, I had no other computer hardware in the 8 bit >age (well, a PCW512 cpm-running word processor, but that had disks) >You 'just' replace the busy waits, with precisely timed bits of game, or >intersperse bits to sample the tape, at just the right points in the game. I believe one of the games that did this was Joe Blade (the loader-game was Pacman) -- Keith Willoughby ###### From: pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 22 Nov 1999 00:20:45 -0000 Organization: dragon cluster Lines: 25 Message-ID: <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Reply-To: pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.watchdragon.demon.co.uk X-Server-Date: 22 Nov 1999 00:20:46 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!news.lattis.xara.net!ewrotcd!root@127.0.0.1!watchdragon.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail fungus wrote: >Tom wrote: >> [Spectrum->Amstrad CPC ports] >> But, same processor, same company, quite possibly similar hardware. Aside: it wasn't the same company until later on when Amstrad bought Spectrum... >> I believe quite a few games were pretty much ported between the two. > >The only thing which changed was the graphics (more colors on Amstrad) >and the music. > >All the rest of the code went straight from one machine to the other. A common complaint in game reviews in Amstrad magazines at the time was about games which had obviously just been ported from the Spectrum with no attempt made to use the superior (in the eyes of the reviewer, at least :->) features of the CPC... Now 'Switchblade' on the CPC was impressive. Lots of tricks played with the video hardware to get better resolution/colours than you were supposed to be able to manage...and the gameplay was good too :-> Peter Maydell ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... X-Nntp-Posting-Host: zs150050.shrv.bna.boeing.com Message-ID: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 42 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <814clm01kaf@news1.newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:35:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!news5.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!sea-feed.news.verio.net!xyzzy!not-for-mail Howdy! wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca wrote in message ... >In <814clm01kaf@news1.newsguy.com>, michael.wojcik@merant.com (Michael Wojcik) writes: >> >>Speaking of broken interrupt handling on Z80-based micros... >> >>I vaguely remember, sometime in the early 80s after the TRS-80 Model >>3 came out, but before 1984 (when we got our first IBM PC), my father >>and I went to a computer store in western Massachusetts to look at >>Model 3's that had been modified to run CP/M. The modifications >>included RAM upgrades (to a then-impressive 64KB) and some kind of >>motherboard modification which, IIRC, allowed hardware interrupts >>to work the way CP/M wanted them to. >> >>Does anyone have any information on this? > >I never had access to one of these, but wasn't one of the modifications to move >the system ROMs out of the low end of the address range and replace that >with RAM ? CP/M isn't much on handling hardware interrupts by itself, all that >is supplied by the CBIOS. There was a mutant version of CP/M that was >relocated to allow for ROM in the bottom 4 K of the Z80 address space but I >may be confusing the Model 3 with a Heathkit machine, here. Used to sell them. The modification was to move the ROMs to the top of memory, with an option to replace the ROMs with RAM, in order to give 64K of RAM. And, yes, there was a version of Pickles & Trout CP/M for the Models 1 and 3 that moved around the bottom 16K of ROM / IO. 4K may have been the H88/H89 series, don't remember offhand. RwP ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:59:27 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 943284704 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article , Michael Hinz writes: [...] > FWIW, my Apple ][+ had a tape speed between 2000 and 3000bps (don't remember > the actual speed). A TV programme in Germany used to send programs over > the audio channel (they called it Hard Bit Rock ;), readable with a special > program ported to several homecomputers of that time. That one was capable > of unbelievable 4800bps IIRC. Was this Basicode? I remember when that came out in the UK (and when it died a couple of months later, too). What it was was a Basic dialect designed to run on as many microcomputers as possible. This meant that it was lowest-common-denominator and pretty bad, of course. It defined a library of gosubable routines to do things like clear the screen, move the cursor, and so on. It also defined a tape storage format for this stuff. This was the clever bit; they somehow managed to make this format readable on about a dozen types of microcomputer, with the appropriate software. The idea was that you could save a Basicode program on one machine, and load it in on the other. BBC Radio 4 broadcast a few programs. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "There does not now, nor will there ever, | Work: dg@tao-group.com | exist a programming language in which it is | Play: dgiven@iname.com | the least bit hard to write bad programs." +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ --- Flon's Axiom ###### From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 22 Nov 1999 18:10:00 GMT Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <81c0to$mqm@relay.lsl.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <816e2a$ggq$2@news3.tufts.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lsla1a.lsl.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!join.news.uk.uu.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!bowl.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.lsl.co.uk!benh Kirk Is (kisrael@andante.cs.tufts.edu) wrote: : Alan O'Hara (aoh@nortelnetworks.com) wrote: : > I remember "Invadaload" on the C64. It first loaded a little Space Invaders : > game : > which you could play while the real game loaded in the background. Having : > come from a ZX SPectrum I found this amazing at the time. : It's a really cool idea- tying in with the 'small games' thread, as well : as some of the cooler 'brag screens'/demos by the cracker groups. : I think Sony PSX did some of that as well, and then they got better at : laying out their CD-ROMs, reducing load time, or something. The PSX CD-ROM drive is only double-speed, after all. So loading 3 MB (the combined capacity of video RAM and main RAM) will take 10 seconds plus seek times. Namco put some classic arcade games in the loaders for their modern arcade conversions. They weren't just for show, though - if you complete the one-level version of Galaxian at the beginning of Ridge Racer before it finishes loading, you'll find an extra, better, car available in the main game. -- Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:06:08 GMT Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer!btnet-feed2!btnet!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk>, pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) writes: > Now 'Switchblade' on the CPC was impressive. Lots of tricks played with > the video hardware to get better resolution/colours than you were supposed > to be able to manage...and the gameplay was good too :-> > Switchblade. What a great game! IIRC the video tricks involved things like split screen modes, palette switches and such like. The reviewers reckoned the version for the vanilla CPCs was nearly as good as the one for the Plus models (which had hardware sprites, 4096 colours, custom chips etc). Ah, the memories. In fact, I think I'll just go for a game now... Rayner ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:45:00 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <942876479.3385.0.nnrp-12.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3833E300.D7CAE823@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943371902 27828 139.222.130.4 (23 Nov 1999 15:45:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1999 15:45:02 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Keith Willoughby wrote: > In article <942961033.2438.0.nnrp-02.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian > Stirling writes > >fungus wrote: [playing Speccy games whilst loading] > >I've definately seen it, I had no other computer hardware in the 8 bit > >age (well, a PCW512 cpm-running word processor, but that had disks) > >You 'just' replace the busy waits, with precisely timed bits of game, or > >intersperse bits to sample the tape, at just the right points in the game. That's the theory. Although it's incredibly difficult to do and the resultant game tends to be rather crap. > I believe one of the games that did this was Joe Blade (the loader-game > was Pacman) Indeed. Technician Ted also had an amazing animated loader which, though not technically a game, worked on similar principles. AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:07:36 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943373256 30841 139.222.130.4 (23 Nov 1999 16:07:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1999 16:07:36 GMT In-Reply-To: <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On 22 Nov 1999, Peter Maydell wrote: > fungus wrote: > >Tom wrote: > >> [Spectrum->Amstrad CPC ports] > >> But, same processor, same company, quite possibly similar hardware. > > Aside: it wasn't the same company until later on when Amstrad bought > Spectrum... ...and stopped devoloping the CPC. (basts) Although they did revamp it later (just a bit too much later IMO) > A common complaint in game reviews in Amstrad magazines at the time > was about games which had obviously just been ported from the Spectrum > with no attempt made to use the superior (in the eyes of the reviewer, > at least :->) features of the CPC... It is such an easy thing to do though. The code is 90% identical, the sound can come from the Speccy 128s. You only need to rewrite the code that accesses the video display and even that can be tweaked to be more speccy-esque. > Now 'Switchblade' on the CPC was impressive. Lots of tricks played with > the video hardware to get better resolution/colours than you were supposed > to be able to manage...and the gameplay was good too :-> Er, I think your probably thinking of something else. Switchblade on the CPC looks almost exactly like the Speccy version. Admittedly there are occasional colour changes but nothing major. Even the CPC+ only cartridge version looks pretty dire, which is a shame given how much better the hardware was. AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:11:34 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943373494 17758 139.222.130.4 (23 Nov 1999 16:11:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1999 16:11:34 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, R Lucas wrote: > Switchblade. What a great game! IIRC the video tricks involved things like > split screen modes, palette switches and such like. Nope, no hardware splits. Just the occasional, very unimpressive for the time, palette switch. >The reviewers reckoned > the version for the vanilla CPCs was nearly as good as the one for the > Plus models (which had hardware sprites, 4096 colours, custom chips etc). Well, the more cycnical might point out that's just because the plus version was a shoddy spectrum port anyway. Now Prehistorik II, there was something which showed what the CPC could do. AndyC ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:36:47 GMT Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article , Andrew Paul Cadley writes: > Now Prehistorik II, there was > something which showed what the CPC could do. > > AndyC Never played it, sadly. Maybe it's time I downloaded it for an emulator. The screenshots looked pretty darn impressive, though. Megablasters, now, that was rather fun. Was that the first commercial CPC game to use a full overscan screen? Rayner ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:32:51 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <80ufhc$6er$1@zharh00t.europe.nortel.com> <816e2a$ggq$2@news3.tufts.edu> <81c0to$mqm@relay.lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943389172 11803 139.222.130.4 (23 Nov 1999 20:32:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1999 20:32:52 GMT In-Reply-To: <81c0to$mqm@relay.lsl.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On 22 Nov 1999, Ben Hutchings wrote: > Namco put some classic arcade games in the loaders for their modern > arcade conversions. They weren't just for show, though - if you complete > the one-level version of Galaxian at the beginning of Ridge Racer before > it finishes loading, you'll find an extra, better, car available in the > main game. The PC version of Broken Sword has a game of breakout whilst it installs. Don't think it had any bearing on the final game though. AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:40:32 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943389633 10797 139.222.130.4 (23 Nov 1999 20:40:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1999 20:40:33 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, R Lucas wrote: > In article , > Andrew Paul Cadley writes: > > Now Prehistorik II, there was > > something which showed what the CPC could do. > Never played it, sadly. Maybe it's time I downloaded it for an emulator. > The screenshots looked pretty darn impressive, though. Certainly is. Especially on WinAPE where you can play the plus version or CaPriCe which does a 100% accurate rendition of the original version (or as close as dammit) > Megablasters, now, that was rather fun. Was that the first commercial CPC > game to use a full overscan screen? Hmm. Not entirely sure. It was very late in the CPCs lifetime, but then again most examples of overscan didn't use the full screen. I can't honestly think of anything earlier. AndyC ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:10:06 GMT Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article , Andrew Paul Cadley writes: >> Megablasters, now, that was rather fun. Was that the first commercial CPC >> game to use a full overscan screen? > > Hmm. Not entirely sure. It was very late in the CPCs lifetime, but then > again most examples of overscan didn't use the full screen. I can't > honestly think of anything earlier. > Maybe we should ask those nice people in comp.sys.amstrad.8bit. Someone there's bound to know for sure. I strongly suspect it was the first, though. There was a game by Titus with an overscan intro screen (can't remember the name - could've been Fire & Forget or Crazy Cars 2). The game itself just had a normal-size screen, though. Rayner ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 22 Nov 1999 20:39:11 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 943484449 nnrp-09:21359 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Michael Hinz (michael@farmasi.uit.no) wrote: : FWIW, my Apple ][+ had a tape speed between 2000 and 3000bps (don't remember : the actual speed). A TV programme in Germany used to send programs over : the audio channel (they called it Hard Bit Rock ;), readable with a special : program ported to several homecomputers of that time. That one was capable : of unbelievable 4800bps IIRC. Is this the time to mention BASICODE 2 again? This was a 'universal' cassette and program format for many home computers of the early 1980s. You bought a translator tape (I have mine here). On side 1 were programs (in native format) for various computers -- this one contains programs for the Apple ][, BBC, Colour Genie, various PETs, C64, Vic20, a couple of Sharps, ZX81, and TRS-80 model 1 and 3. Side 2 contains demo programs. The BASICODE format was fairly simple -- 1200 baud using 1200Hz and 2400Hz tones IIRC. Along with the trnaslator program there was a set of subroutines that were loaded with line numbers <1000. This was to get round differences in the BASIC. For example, to clear the screen you used 'CLS' on a TRS-80, 'HOME' on an Apple, and something else on a PET. So you couldn't use any of those keywords in a BASICODE program. Instead there as a subroutine at a particular line number (which I forget 100? 110?) that you called if you wanted to clear the sreen. That would work on any of the machines once you'd loaded the translator. IIRC this idea was originally Dutch, and came from a radio program called 'Hobbyscoop' (or something like that). They transmitted BASICODE programs over the air every week. You recorded them from the radio and used them on your micro. The BBC tried the same thing in the UK for a few months (which is why I bought a translator tape), and I can remember staying up late (they transmitted said programs at 00:27 or something 3 nights a week) to record them and try them out. It seemed to work quite well, given the limitations of the BASICODE format (machine-specific features could not be used, of course). -tony ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:46:23 -0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 25 Message-ID: <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.228.77 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail R Lucas wrote: > > Switchblade. What a great game! IIRC the video tricks involved things like > split screen modes, palette switches and such like. The reviewers reckoned > the version for the vanilla CPCs was nearly as good as the one for the > Plus models (which had hardware sprites, 4096 colours, custom chips etc). > We did one which tricked the video controller into putting two "screens" on screen at once. This way we could scroll the top half of the screen without the bottom part scrolling. Only problem was that the monitor sync could never decide which of the two screens to put at the top. Sometimes you got the game at the top, sometimes the status panel. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### From: jo@delorges.in-berlin.de (Jo Meder) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 24 Nov 1999 23:26:09 GMT Organization: private Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: delorges.in-berlin.de X-Trace: delorges.in-berlin.de 943485969 28934 192.168.208.1 (24 Nov 1999 23:26:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@delorges.in-berlin.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1999 23:26:09 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.6 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!fu-berlin.de!bolzen.all.de!hirsch.in-berlin.de!delorges.in-berlin.de!jo ony Duell wrote: > They transmitted BASICODE programs > over the air every week. You recorded them from the radio and used them > on your micro. The BBC tried the same thing in the UK for a few months > (which is why I bought a translator tape), and I can remember staying up > late (they transmitted said programs at 00:27 or something 3 nights a > week) to record them and try them out. I cannot remember if it was BASICODE being transmitted but in Germany there where radio shows that sent the code on one stereo channel and continued their normal (computer related) broadcast on the other. This was discontinued after some months since the radio station was swamped with complaints about not working this or that. Jo. ###### From: Paul Grayson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 01:20:44 +0000 Organization: Shed Liberation Front Lines: 27 Message-ID: <383C8EEC.378262D@virgin.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p08-stint-gui.tch.virgin.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net 943528887 9039 194.168.120.188 (25 Nov 1999 11:21:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 11:21:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.freedom2surf.net!btnet-peer!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!shippo.virgin.net!nobody > I cannot remember if it was BASICODE being transmitted but in Germany there > where radio shows that sent the code on one stereo channel and continued > their normal (computer related) broadcast on the other. This was > discontinued after some months since the radio station was swamped with > complaints about not working this or that. > > Jo. On thing the BBC did that worked quite well was to broadcast software over Teletext on BBC2. They gave this the name Telesoftware. Initially this supported the BBC micro, and required an additional Teletext decoder attached to the side of the machine. I never used the system myself (never owned a BBC) but I believe that one program was available per week. The BBC micro was suited to teletext, as it supported standard Teletext/Viewdata graphics. Later the BBC supported the PC. Late in 1988 I eventually acquired a Teletext capable television set, and noticed at the time that the BBC were broadcasting Kermit for both the PC and BBC micro. This turned out to be the last Telesoftware broadcast, as the service was discontinued a week or so later. -- Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK. Looking for Unix/Linux work in my area - email for details. ###### From: Keith Willoughby Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:05:44 +0000 Organization: Flat222 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cowtown.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cowtown.demon.co.uk:194.222.21.6 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 943503095 nnrp-11:22573 NO-IDENT cowtown.demon.co.uk:194.222.21.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cowtown.demon.co.uk!keith In article <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, Tony Duell writes >Michael Hinz (michael@farmasi.uit.no) wrote: > >: FWIW, my Apple ][+ had a tape speed between 2000 and 3000bps (don't remember >: the actual speed). A TV programme in Germany used to send programs over >: the audio channel (they called it Hard Bit Rock ;), readable with a special >: program ported to several homecomputers of that time. That one was capable >: of unbelievable 4800bps IIRC. > >Is this the time to mention BASICODE 2 again? [snip] Can you anyone tell me how the software transmitted via teletext worked? This must have been 1985ish, on the BBCs Ceefax, and looked something like UUENCODEd data. Did it use a teletext adapter for the micro, or a gadget specifically for the purpose? -- Keith Willoughby ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:49:50 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 20 Message-ID: <383CEA1E.9DC94D05@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.228.212 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.tli.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail Keith Willoughby wrote: > > Can you anyone tell me how the software transmitted via teletext worked? > This must have been 1985ish, on the BBCs Ceefax, and looked something > like UUENCODEd data. Did it use a teletext adapter for the micro, or a > gadget specifically for the purpose? > The BBC Micro had an optional teletext adaptor which converted the pages automatically. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:26:48 GMT Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, fungus writes: > > We did one which tricked the video controller into putting > two "screens" on screen at once. How did you do that, then? Sounds intriguing. And did it ever get released? Rayner ###### From: Paul Grayson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:43:29 +0000 Organization: Shed Liberation Front Lines: 17 Message-ID: <383D20E1.9E0D932B@virgin.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p15-martin-gui.tch.virgin.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net 943536102 10827 194.168.69.135 (25 Nov 1999 13:21:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 13:21:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!shippo.virgin.net!nobody > [snip] > > Can you anyone tell me how the software transmitted via teletext worked? > This must have been 1985ish, on the BBCs Ceefax, and looked something > like UUENCODEd data. Did it use a teletext adapter for the micro, or a > gadget specifically for the purpose? It used dedicated hardware; in the case of the BBC micro it was a box about half the size of the machine itself, connected to one side. As you can see in my other post on this subject (which hasn't appeared yet), the service was discontinued sometime in 1988, by which time the PC was also supported, again using dedicated hardware. -- Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK. Looking for Unix/Linux work in my area - email for details. ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:08:35 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 36 Message-ID: <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.229.231 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!serra.unipi.it!newsfeed.cineca.it!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail R Lucas wrote: > > In article <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, > fungus writes: > > > > We did one which tricked the video controller into putting > > two "screens" on screen at once. > > How did you do that, then? Sounds intriguing. And did it ever get > released? > IIRC (it's been a long time....) you just fiddle with the 6845 registers to make a little screen, about half the normal height, which refreshes at 100Hz (assuming PAL TV frequencies). You also set up an interrupt to flip between the two different screens on each raster (the Amstrad could put the screen on any 16k boundry) Monitors and TV sets mostly ignore a vertical blank pulse if it doesn't occur near the bottom of the screen so you don't get a flyback between the two halves. It worked on all the Amstrad CPC monitors and a lot of TV sets, but not all. It didn't get published because of the few TV sets which got freaked out....we ended up doing a much slower software version instead. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. ###### From: "jantheman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 14:29:12 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 42 Message-ID: <81jh4o$ug0$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com><383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com><942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <81c9lf$1gj@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: "jantheman" NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-145.lemonpeel-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 943540184 31232 62.137.38.145 (25 Nov 1999 14:29:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 14:29:44 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Keith Willoughby wrote in message news:vUb8zaAYWLP4EwUD@cowtown.demon.co.uk... > > [snip] > > Can you anyone tell me how the software transmitted via teletext worked? > This must have been 1985ish, on the BBCs Ceefax, and looked something > like UUENCODEd data. Did it use a teletext adapter for the micro, or a > gadget specifically for the purpose? > > -- > Keith Willoughby I think this still exists in Italy, (unless I had a very weird dream there....) This was in Padova at the beginning of this month. You know how it is - fire up TV...flick thru' channels...Notice remote has Teletext... think "anything in English?"...see the word "Computer"...step thru... And I see something which on translation seems to say "Software Tonight on pages xyz-xyy". Hmmm. Could it be that ol' stuff the BBC were broadcasting a long time ago? And lo! It did look like what I thought it was. I think the info' pages suggested "load into PC with (Hardware device??) the following things: "Letters, Games" It's coming back to me now. I think they also broadcasted educational texts too. Also, I did the "look for "PQRS" letter sequence (which is the bytes sequence for x86 C function boilerplate code (push bp mov bp,sp blah blah blah... -don't flame my bad memory. I last did this in anger about 6 years ago)) but didn't see any. I think Beeb/Teletext is ASCII enough to reflect this? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:14:00 GMT Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, fungus writes: > > IIRC (it's been a long time....) you just fiddle with the 6845 > registers to make a little screen, about half the normal height, > which refreshes at 100Hz (assuming PAL TV frequencies). You > also set up an interrupt to flip between the two different > screens on each raster (the Amstrad could put the screen on > any 16k boundry) I knew the CPC could use any of the 16k blocks as screen memory, but I would never have thought of that as a use for it! I like it! And presumably there's no reason why you couldn't do palette or mode switches too... hmmm... That's given me a few ideas. Now, where's my assembler...? :-) Rayner ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:25:20 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 943603212 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, fungus writes: >> In article <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, >> fungus writes: >> > >> > We did one which tricked the video controller into putting >> > two "screens" on screen at once. >> >> How did you do that, then? Sounds intriguing. And did it ever get >> released? > > IIRC (it's been a long time....) you just fiddle with the 6845 > registers to make a little screen, about half the normal height, > which refreshes at 100Hz (assuming PAL TV frequencies). You > also set up an interrupt to flip between the two different > screens on each raster (the Amstrad could put the screen on > any 16k boundry) [...] There was a similar trick you could do on the BBC, which also used a 6845; you used an interrupt to reprogram the video controller registers half-way down the screen to effectively change modes. Then you put it back in the flyback. The classic game _Elite_ did this to great effect. The top half of the screen was in mode 4 (320x256, monochrome). This contained the external view from your ship. The bottom half was in mode 5 (160x256, four colour). This contained your scanner and status displays. There were usually a couple of lines of garbage between the two as the registers were reprogrammed. I've seen versions of the code which allowed *three* screen segments this way. You could swap between any modes that had the same number of bytes per scanline (mode 0, 640x256 monochrome and mode 2, 160x256 sixteen colour were favourites). -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | FNORD | Play: dgiven@iname.com | +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:32:17 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943554738 29095 139.222.130.4 (25 Nov 1999 18:32:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 18:32:18 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, R Lucas wrote: > In article , > Andrew Paul Cadley writes: > >> Megablasters, now, that was rather fun. Was that the first commercial > CPC > >> game to use a full overscan screen? > > > > Hmm. Not entirely sure. It was very late in the CPCs lifetime, but then > > again most examples of overscan didn't use the full screen. I can't > > honestly think of anything earlier. > Maybe we should ask those nice people in comp.sys.amstrad.8bit. > Someone there's bound to know for sure. I strongly suspect it was the > first, though. Consider it done. > There was a game by Titus with an overscan intro screen (can't remember > the name - could've been Fire & Forget or Crazy Cars 2). The game itself > just had a normal-size screen, though. Well they were definately pre-megablasters. So it probably wasn't the first, but I may be wrong. I am occasionally. :) AndyC ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:57:01 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943556222 17776 139.222.130.4 (25 Nov 1999 18:57:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 18:57:02 GMT In-Reply-To: <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, fungus wrote: > R Lucas wrote: > > > > In article <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, > > fungus writes: > > > > > > We did one which tricked the video controller into putting > > > two "screens" on screen at once. > > > > How did you do that, then? Sounds intriguing. And did it ever get > > released? > > IIRC (it's been a long time....) you just fiddle with the 6845 > registers to make a little screen, about half the normal height, > which refreshes at 100Hz (assuming PAL TV frequencies). You > also set up an interrupt to flip between the two different > screens on each raster (the Amstrad could put the screen on > any 16k boundry) The technique, often called Vertical splitting was used by about five games and literally hundreds of demos. It's pretty difficult to get the timing right, especially because it can sometimes be a bit CRTC specific (Amstrad used various brands of 6845.) A fairly detailed explanation can be found at: http://andercheran.aiind.upv.es/~amstrad/CPC_Guide/index.html> You can also do split screens horizontally, but the timing for that is a complete git. (And it's easy to kill a monitor doing it) > It worked on all the Amstrad CPC monitors and a lot of TV > sets, but not all. It didn't get published because of the > few TV sets which got freaked out....we ended up doing a > much slower software version instead. Shame, 'cos almost no CPC users used there tellys, since all machines came with a monitor. AndyC ###### From: Paul Grayson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:25:09 +0000 Organization: Shed Liberation Front Lines: 40 Message-ID: <383D9B25.A320055D@virgin.net> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p51-raven-gui.tch.virgin.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: nclient11-gui.server.virgin.net 943562739 14169 194.168.69.111 (25 Nov 1999 20:45:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 20:45:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!shippo.virgin.net!nobody > I knew the CPC could use any of the 16k blocks as screen memory, but I > would never have thought of that as a use for it! I like it! > > And presumably there's no reason why you couldn't do palette or mode > switches too... hmmm... dormant state> > I saw simillar done with the pallette on the Spectrum. There was a book written by David Webb, the author of the game Starion, that showed how to do it. The Spectrum screen was effectivly a monochrome 256x192 bitmapped screen, with each 8x8 block having a separate pallette value, controlling the foreground and background colours, brightness and flashing. Hook the interrupt generated at the start of the trace, then execute specific useless instructions to give a pause of enough clock ticks to be able to change the pallette values (called attributes). Repeat moving data until all the screen has been updated, then do whatever else you need to do before the screen is updated. Unfortunatly the only way to do this accuratly without flicker only made it possible to modify 8 of the 32 character cells per line. The author had discovered the fastest instructions to do this task, and couldn't speed it up. I tried the examples in the book, and they worked, but there were of little practical use. Simiilar interrupt techniques also made it possible to generate large block displays that filled the whole screen (this was used for the countdown in Starion), flickerless sprites, and other which I have since forgotten. -- Paul Grayson, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK. Looking for Unix/Linux work in my area - email for details. ###### From: Andrew Paul Cadley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:33:31 +0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cpca4.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 943562013 19522 139.222.130.4 (25 Nov 1999 20:33:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 20:33:33 GMT In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!cpca4.uea.ac.uk!a962115 On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, R Lucas wrote: > In article <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, > fungus writes: > > And presumably there's no reason why you couldn't do palette or mode > switches too... hmmm... dormant state> Palette switching is easy, and can produce some fantastic effects. Prehistorik II, for example, has a scrolling message about 1/3rd of the screen height produced entirely from palette changes. Mode switching is also possible, but only at the start of a new scanline. Well unless you delve into *very* complicated demo tricks. > That's given me a few ideas. Now, where's my assembler...? :-) Good old maxam? AndyC ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 26 Nov 1999 08:33:52 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 28 Message-ID: <81lglg$1dre$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul9.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 943605232 46958 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article , David Given wrote: >The classic game _Elite_ did this to great effect. The top half of the >screen was in mode 4 (320x256, monochrome). This contained the external >view from your ship. The bottom half was in mode 5 (160x256, four colour). >This contained your scanner and status displays. There were usually a >couple of lines of garbage between the two as the registers were >reprogrammed. I tried Elite on a BBC emulator for the Macintosh (which contains special code to emulate that mode-switching tricks, as well as a special algorithm to handle the tricks of the game "Revs" properly). There was a bit of garbage and maybe some jumpiness. I assumed that was the fault of the emulator, so it's a little disappointing that the real hardware does the same. Perhaps an emulator could actually be better than the hardware, by eliminating the garbage? >I've seen versions of the code which allowed *three* screen segments this >way. You could swap between any modes that had the same number of bytes >per scanline (mode 0, 640x256 monochrome and mode 2, 160x256 sixteen >colour were favourites). Why the requirement about the same number of bytes per scanline? Does it have to do with the size of screen memory, or perhaps to make sure that a screen's worth of memory actually filled exactly the entire screen? -- Derek ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:54:47 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7esl18.chk.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81lglg$1dre$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 943628677 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <81lglg$1dre$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) writes: [...] > I tried Elite on a BBC emulator for the Macintosh (which contains special > code to emulate that mode-switching tricks, as well as a special algorithm > to handle the tricks of the game "Revs" properly). There was a bit of > garbage and maybe some jumpiness. I assumed that was the fault of the > emulator, so it's a little disappointing that the real hardware does the > same. Perhaps an emulator could actually be better than the hardware, by > eliminating the garbage? The problem is that it takes *time* to reprogram all the registers (there are quite a lot), and of course you can't wait for the video flyback, or there'd be no point. I don't recall it being at all obtrusive; it was usually just one scanline, sometimes spilling over onto two. I hate to think how you'd simulate this in an emulator. It must contain some pretty clever code. >>I've seen versions of the code which allowed *three* screen segments this >>way. You could swap between any modes that had the same number of bytes >>per scanline (mode 0, 640x256 monochrome and mode 2, 160x256 sixteen >>colour were favourites). > > Why the requirement about the same number of bytes per scanline? Does it > have to do with the size of screen memory, or perhaps to make sure that a > screen's worth of memory actually filled exactly the entire screen? I forget exactly, but that's something like it. I think the problem is that changing the speed at which the video generator scans memory is a Big Deal and can't be done quickly enough to do on-the-fly. The end result, though, was that you could combine any of the two 20kB modes, or any of the two 10kB modes, and so on. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | FNORD | Play: dgiven@iname.com | +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: Nich Campbell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Date: 26 Nov 1999 14:34:06 GMT Organization: OTTO Lines: 23 Message-ID: <81m5ou$p9b$1@sirius.dur.ac.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: altair.dur.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!altair.dur.ac.uk!d70sw0 Andrew Paul Cadley wrote: : > There was a game by Titus with an overscan intro screen (can't remember : > the name - could've been Fire & Forget or Crazy Cars 2). The game itself : > just had a normal-size screen, though. : Well they were definately pre-megablasters. So it probably wasn't the : first, but I may be wrong. I am occasionally. :) Going back to the Titus games, I know that Knight Force had a full overscan loading screen - I just CANNOT work out how to play the game itself, though. I recall that the graphics blew everyone away when it came out. As for Crazy Cars II, it actually used a Spectrum-size screen! Titan, however, did use vertical overscan, and the scrolling is the fastest I have ever seen of any CPC game. It's a shame that the NVG version has only 16 levels, although I own the full 80 level version. :-) -- Nicholas "Nich" Campbell | mailto:nich@otto.org or -------------------------| mailto:n.a.campbell@durham.ac.uk OTTO On-Line | http://nich.otto.org/ CPC Games Reviews | http://members.xoom.com/cpcreviews/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:33:47 GMT Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article , Andrew Paul Cadley writes: > > Palette switching is easy, and can produce some fantastic effects. > Prehistorik II, for example, has a scrolling message about 1/3rd of the > screen height produced entirely from palette changes. And of course, no continental PD program was complete without an intro screen displaying all twenty-seven colours in mode 2... >> That's given me a few ideas. Now, where's my assembler...? :-) > > Good old maxam? No, just Devpac. Still, now I've got my ROMbox built, Maxam 1.5 is near the top of my Christmas list (after the coffee maker - after all, an assembler's no use without coffee). Rayner ###### From: john@polo.demon.co.uk (John Winters) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 26 Nov 1999 17:24:21 -0000 Organization: The Linux Emporium Message-ID: <81mfo5$76s$1@polo.demon.co.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81lglg$1dre$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk:194.70.1.33 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 943637581 nnrp-04:23524 NO-IDENT unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk:194.70.1.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!unseen.linuxemporium.co.uk!polo.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <81lglg$1dre$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, Derek Peschel wrote: >In article , David Given wrote: > >>The classic game _Elite_ did this to great effect. The top half of the >>screen was in mode 4 (320x256, monochrome). This contained the external >>view from your ship. The bottom half was in mode 5 (160x256, four colour). >>This contained your scanner and status displays. There were usually a >>couple of lines of garbage between the two as the registers were >>reprogrammed. > >I tried Elite on a BBC emulator for the Macintosh (which contains special >code to emulate that mode-switching tricks, as well as a special algorithm >to handle the tricks of the game "Revs" properly). There was a bit of >garbage and maybe some jumpiness. I assumed that was the fault of the >emulator, so it's a little disappointing that the real hardware does the >same. Perhaps an emulator could actually be better than the hardware, by >eliminating the garbage? I never noticed any garbage when playing Elite on a series 7 BBC B. I never really believed what I was seeing though. John -- John Winters. Wallingford, Oxon, England. The Linux Emporium - the source for Linux CDs in the UK See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 26 Nov 1999 22:50:46 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 64 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uso1shqh5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D9B25.A320055D@virgin.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Paul Grayson writes: > > > And presumably there's no reason why you couldn't do palette or mode > > switches too... hmmm... > dormant state> And here a Z80/6809/6502 programmer gets triggered into flashback mode. > The Spectrum screen was effectivly a monochrome 256x192 bitmapped > screen, with each 8x8 block having a separate pallette value, > controlling the foreground and background colours, brightness and > flashing. The Dragon 32 had something similar but even weaker. The 6847 (not 5) video generator had 2 modes, bitmap and alpha. Bitmap was a standard 1 or 2 bit per pixel (only 1 bit at 256x192, 1 or 2 at 128x192 or 128x96) affair. But it had limited colours: black/green or black/amber for 1 pixel, and 2 sets of 4 colours _without_ any black for 2 pixel. I.e. useless for space games. Alpha was an 32x16 grid of 8x12 pixel blocks. These had per block 4 subblocks of 4x6 'pixels' (gives 64x32) which could be either black or any of 8 foreground colours (but all 4 subblocks the same foreground). Ideal for space games, if you just had more resolution. The later was achieved by setting the memory managment and the video generator chip to different modes (video to alpha, memory to highest res bitmap). Result: on had video memory with 8x1 pixel characters, 192 lines of them. This gave the full 192 independant lines and only the 2 subblocks next to each other had to have the same foreground color. Unfortunately it only used 2 of the 4 pixel bits, there was no way to use the others for 128 pixels/line. > Hook the interrupt generated at the start of the trace, then execute > specific useless instructions to give a pause of enough clock ticks to > be able to change the pallette values (called attributes). Repeat moving > data until all the screen has been updated, then do whatever else you > need to do before the screen is updated. Are you sure the palette was changed (AFAIK the Speccy had a fixed 8 colour palette)? Would not changing the base address of the attributes memory do a faster job of giving each line its own colours, making that 32x192 8x1-sized blocks? BTW: On the Commodore C64 there existed programs that resetting the border colour for each line. This allowed extending the 'ground' in a game to the screen edge. The sprites actually would display on the entire screen. But this feature was also used with random fast changes to generate an psychedelic effect in some intros (such as by GCS, the German Cracking Service). > I tried the examples in the book, and they worked, but there were of > little practical use. Perhaps map flipping would have been better. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: Tom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:28:45 +0000 Organization: None whatsoever Lines: 41 Message-ID: <383F33CD.82A619C5@ncl.ac.uk> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81lglg$1dre$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: black13.ncl.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!news.ncl.ac.uk!not-for-mail Derek Peschel wrote: > Why the requirement about the same number of bytes per scanline? Does it > have to do with the size of screen memory, or perhaps to make sure that a > screen's worth of memory actually filled exactly the entire screen? The BBC also generated its video output with a ULA designed by Acorn (the "Video ULA", catchy huh). This had two clock speeds -- slow, which was used for modes 4-6 (40 bytes per line), and fast, which was used for modes 0-3 (80 bytes per line). In addition, it had another register field indicating pixel format (1 bit per pixel, 2 bits per pixel or (fast clock only) 4 bits per pixel), and another register used to set the palette. The ULA read bytes from memory and, presumably somehow timed with the 6845's operation, turns the bytes into pixel colours to be sent to the screen. The 6845's R1 (number of characters per line) was programmed with the number of bytes per line, and the ULA had to be similarly programmed so that it did things at the right speed. Each 6845 character is one byte 'wide', so for 40 character mode the ULA needs to be set for slow clock mode. The ULA's registers could be changed whilst the screen was being rescanned, so with the help of the VIA timers and the 6845's VSYNC signal one could receive an interrupt at a particular period after the vsync and change pixel formats and/or the palette at a particular point on the screen. The 6845's registers on the other hand are 'stuck' once the frame has started drawing, so modifying them whilst a frame is being drawn has no effect until the next frame. So, although one could change the ULA clock speed halfway down the screen (e.g., to get a split MODE 0/MODE 4 screen), the 6845 register values necessary to display the bottom format will be ignored and the bottom section of the screen will just display rubbish. (Although, I must admit I've not actually tried this, and you might get something meaningful.) -- --Tom this space filled with | this space not filled with this space filled this intentionally | with this intentionally unintentionally ###### From: AndyC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:04:09 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <821ajm$uv1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.222.4.229 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 30 20:04:09 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.4.229 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDandycadley Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) wrote: > In article , > Andrew Paul Cadley writes: > And of course, no continental PD program was complete without an intro > screen displaying all twenty-seven colours in mode 2... :-) Although I have to admit to doing 256 colours in mode 2 on a CPC+, yummy! > >> That's given me a few ideas. Now, where's my assembler...? :-) > > > > Good old maxam? > > No, just Devpac. Still, now I've got my ROMbox built, Maxam 1.5 is near > the top of my Christmas list (after the coffee maker - after all, an > assembler's no use without coffee). Absolutely, coffee is the main ingredient of any good program. AndyC Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: AndyC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:08:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <821are$v2h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <383d0998.63730960@news.spacebbs.com> <942349298.1056.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <382B714E.4552140B@maqs.net> <382F2D8C.1D43B6B4@virgin.net> <38363dc0.4284491@nnrp.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.222.4.229 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 30 20:08:18 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.4.229 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDandycadley Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <38363dc0.4284491@nnrp.gol.com>, prs@gol.com (Jacqui or (maybe) Pete) wrote: > On Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:45:48 +0000, Paul Grayson > wrote: > This may have been mentioned many times, but the first Sinclaire > computer came with a manual that said something like 'while loading > the program, you can turn up the volume and listen to what's being > sent to the computer. If you can understand it then you are an alien > and will go far in the computer industry". And the Spectrum Manual had the "Which is the lesser, evil or Evil?" line in there somewhere. Manuals were more fun in those days... AndyC Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: fungus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:13:14 +0100 Organization: Iddeo - Retevisión Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3846EEFA.AE6C4591@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <38291A1E.EDDCBEFC@cyberport.com> <942777587.25392.0.nnrp-13.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <3831F5B4.5327D931@ncl.ac.uk> <3835498A.1A35349E@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <81a28t$uur$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.82.229.158 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!serra.unipi.it!newsfeed.cineca.it!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!news-1.retevision.es!news.iddeo.es!not-for-mail David Given wrote: > > In article <383D26C3.9440FACA@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, > fungus writes: > >> In article <383C78CF.E0368E15@egg.chips.and.spam.com>, > >> fungus writes: > >> > > >> > We did one which tricked the video controller into putting > >> > two "screens" on screen at once. > >> > There was a similar trick you could do on the BBC, which also used a 6845; > you used an interrupt to reprogram the video controller registers half-way > down the screen to effectively change modes. Then you put it back in the > flyback. > > The classic game _Elite_ did this to great effect. The top half of the > screen was in mode 4 (320x256, monochrome). This contained the external > view from your ship. The bottom half was in mode 5 (160x256, four colour). > This contained your scanner and status displays. This didn't work well on early BEEBs. I can remember the first games which did this had a setup screen where you used the cursor keys to move the change up and down the screen manually to get it in the right place. > There were usually a couple of lines of garbage between the two > as the registers were reprogrammed. > Never saw that. I do remember that the interrupt went wrong when the machine accessed the floppy (disk version of Elite), causing the bottom part ot the screen to turn to garbage. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB.