From: scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:21:48 GMT Message-ID: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 940335538 nnrp-14:8026 NO-IDENT bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!bmtech.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment which would allow reading/writing of registers, dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith 8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? Scott -- (please de-mung address if replying by email) ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 13:00:32 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Message-ID: <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursa.cus.cam.ac.uk Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 In article <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1>, Scott Wheeler wrote: >Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >which would allow reading/writing of registers, >dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? Yes, and it's there in any machine with OpenFirmware (including recent Macs). -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. The opinions above are mine alone. ###### From: ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 14:23:07 GMT Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7uhusb$u6o@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cauchy.cs.uni-bonn.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!fu-berlin.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!usenet In article <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) writes: > In article <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1>, > somebody faking his address wrote: >>Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >>which would allow reading/writing of registers, >>dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >>8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >>similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? > > Yes, and it's there in any machine with OpenFirmware (including recent > Macs). There are also OpenFirmware ARM machines. Btw, there _is_ a ROM monitor in the Amiga ROMs (accessible through the serial port), but you can't force entry into but - during a GURU (equivalent of panic()) - by starting a program doing a system call. -is -- * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) ###### From: scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:30:31 GMT Message-ID: <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 940350457 nnrp-03:19742 NO-IDENT bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!bmtech.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 19 Oct 1999 13:00:32 GMT, bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) wrote: >>Sun Sparcs had a >>similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? > >Yes, and it's there in any machine with OpenFirmware (including recent >Macs). How do you get to it in a Mac? Scott -- (please de-mung address if replying by email) ###### From: bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 17:20:01 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursa.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!195.224.165.20.MISMATCH!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!bjh21 In article <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1>, Scott Wheeler wrote: >On 19 Oct 1999 13:00:32 GMT, bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) wrote: > >>>Sun Sparcs had a >>>similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? >> >>Yes, and it's there in any machine with OpenFirmware (including recent >>Macs). > >How do you get to it in a Mac? Hold down command-option-O-F at startup. -- Ben Harris Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service. The opinions above are mine alone. ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:59:45 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 15 Message-ID: <128iu7.2ej.ln@127.0.0.1> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 940353736 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1>, scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) writes: > Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment > which would allow reading/writing of registers, > dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith > 8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a > similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? Most embedded systems reference platforms have these. I've used several. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Does a Con Neumann machine run a Make | Play: dgiven@iname.com | Machines Fast scam? +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 12:27:56 -0700 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7uigns$217g@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-380.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn In article <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1>, scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS says... > >Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >which would allow reading/writing of registers, >dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? As far as I know, its still fairly common. Macintosh computers still have monitors in ROM, its part of the Open Firmware boot system. Its a lot easier to get at through MacsBug since OF is in FORTH.. ###### From: Alexandre Pechtchanski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1> <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <7uife2$e4u$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:14:43 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 940364144 129.85.24.56 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:15:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:15:44 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail On 19 Oct 1999 19:05:38 GMT, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) wrote: [ snip ] >OBAFC: The Canon CAT also has FORTH in ROM but it was never documented. The >designers wanted to sneak a couple of capabilities past Canon. The >procedure isn't hard to do, and the information is available, but it's not >intuitive. And the magic words are sligthly encrypted. Same for the hidden >credits screen. :) Do tell! [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> Organization: Transoft Corp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Reply-To: bhahn@transoft.mangle.net (unmangle address to reply) X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:52:04 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.180.87.35 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: nuq-read.news.verio.net 940384077 205.180.87.35 (Wed, 20 Oct 1999 01:47:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 01:47:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nuq-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!bhahn bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) wrote: >Scott Wheeler wrote: >>Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >>which would allow reading/writing of registers, >>dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >>8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >>similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? > >Yes, and it's there in any machine with OpenFirmware (including recent >Macs). I wouldn't count Mac OF as a monitor because it's startup-only; after OF kicks off the boot process, you can't get back to it (don't know how it is on other OF machines). Macs do in fact have a monitor of the sort described, though: MicroBug, a very primitive (no dis/assembly) environment, built into ROM, that the OS can invoke (usually done in response to the interrupt switch available on Mac hardware). It's described here: http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1136.html bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 19:05:38 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 33 Message-ID: <7uife2$e4u$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1> <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul1.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 940359938 14494 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Ben Harris wrote: >In article <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1>, >Scott Wheeler wrote: >>On 19 Oct 1999 13:00:32 GMT, bjh21@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ben Harris) wrote: >>>>Sun Sparcs had a >>>>similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? >>> >>>Yes, and it's there in any machine with OpenFirmware (including recent >>>Macs). >> >>How do you get to it in a Mac? > >Hold down command-option-O-F at startup. Once you get there, you may find that there are machine-specific differences. I remember poking around the Open Firmware on one machine (an early G3, I think) and on an iMac. The G3 may have had a HELP command. The iMac didn't (the HELP word was explicitly defined to tell you that help for whatever was not available -- yes, it pasted in the name of the word you had asked for help on.) I suppose this allows Apple to meet the Open Firmware standard. But it's ironic considering the goals of the iMac design. OBAFC: The Canon CAT also has FORTH in ROM but it was never documented. The designers wanted to sneak a couple of capabilities past Canon. The procedure isn't hard to do, and the information is available, but it's not intuitive. And the magic words are sligthly encrypted. Same for the hidden credits screen. :) -- Derek ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 19:12:50 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7uifri$t34$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <128iu7.2ej.ln@127.0.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul1.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 940360370 29796 (None) 140.142.17.39 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <128iu7.2ej.ln@127.0.0.1>, David Given wrote: >In article <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1>, > scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) writes: >> Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >> which would allow reading/writing of registers, >> dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >> 8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >> similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? > >Most embedded systems reference platforms have these. I've used several. Are any of the ones you've used really powerful? I've been thinking about what makes a good monitor. The best design I've come up with would be a small programming environment that let you write programs to manipulate the main machine (sort of like a software logic analyzer -- you might have a breakpoint start an extra program which analyzed the contents of memory to print out a large data structure) On a production embedded system that would be overkill. But on a prototype embedded system it would surely be very useful. :) Seriously, some monitors are only 1-2 steps up from front panels (which can be very weak -- the PDP-8 panels I've used can't change certain registers, or can't do it without affect something else). -- Derek ###### From: TheCentralScrutinizer.167@pobox.com () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 19 Oct 1999 20:13:48 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uigns$217g@edrn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: TheCentralScrutinizer.167@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: edison.chisp.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!TheCentralScrutinizer.167 On 19 Oct 1999 12:27:56 -0700, Charles Eicher wrote: >In article <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1>, scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS >says... >> >>Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >>which would allow reading/writing of registers, >>dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >>8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >>similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? > >As far as I know, its still fairly common. Macintosh computers still have >monitors in ROM, its part of the Open Firmware boot system. Its a lot easier to >get at through MacsBug since OF is in FORTH.. > -- Windoze/9x has the one used to load it called msdos version 7. ###### From: btomlin@NOSPAM.texas.net (Bruce Tomlin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> Organization: San Antonio, TX Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:43:40 CDT X-Trace: sv2-2iaaptPPYq0mB2pL17/bSxavpjTuy+f7exVXfu3NAG6Ik62nSRAfeTdQW8rUQZ9Qc7NAvb1Lp9O2Gh7!XxBYKqhlkvqTbbmSEJWwSng= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:46:10 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!atuin.bruce!user In article , bhahn@transoft.mangle.net (unmangle address to reply) wrote: > I wouldn't count Mac OF as a monitor because it's startup-only; after OF > kicks off the boot process, you can't get back to it (don't know how it is > on other OF machines). Macs do in fact have a monitor of the sort > described, though: MicroBug, a very primitive (no dis/assembly) > environment, built into ROM, that the OS can invoke (usually done in > response to the interrupt switch available on Mac hardware). It's > described here: > > http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1136.html > > bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply This is a very stripped down version of MacsBug, which is a true monitor program. Hit that interrupt button, or command-power, and that's all that's running. And AFAIK, it's still supported. Note that the name "MacsBug" preceeds the Macintosh by many years. "MACS" stands for "Motorola Advanced Computer System" or something like that. ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: 20 Oct 1999 00:57:07 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 76 Message-ID: <7uj413$uiq$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <7uife2$e4u$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul7.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 940381027 31322 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article , Alexandre Pechtchanski wrote: >On 19 Oct 1999 19:05:38 GMT, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) wrote: >[ snip ] >>OBAFC: The Canon CAT also has FORTH in ROM but it was never documented. The >>designers wanted to sneak a couple of capabilities past Canon. The >>procedure isn't hard to do, and the information is available, but it's not >>intuitive. And the magic words are sligthly encrypted. Same for the hidden >>credits screen. :) > >Do tell! OK, first some background: The CAT was designed to be used in offices. It's basically a closed system. Unlike the Macintosh, it was designed to be used with only a keyboard -- there's no way to plug in a mouse. Although Canon sold it, Jef Raskin's comapny (Information Systems, Inc.? -- I forget the name) wrote the software for Canon. Below the space bar are two LEAP keys (left and right). They are the main means of navigation. They are supposed to act as modifier keys that trigger an interactive search rather like Emacs'. Hold down the LEAP key for the direction you want, type the text, let up the LEAP key. When you release them without typing anything else, they act as cursor keys (but only left and right -- there are no up and down keys). There are some other subtle aspects to the interface that make it more complicated -- for example, the text that would be deleted if you chose to do it is always highlighted, and the LEAP keys allow you to change that highlight. But they also move the existing highlighted text. For commands there is one (two?) USE FRONT keys on the same row as the space bar. Think of them as Apple-style command keys. Hold down USE FRONT, hit a single letter, something happens. You may be able to hit other keys as part of the same command (if you hit EXPLAIN which is USE FRONT+N, you'll get help, but you can also explain a specific key by pressing it next) but you need to continue holding down USE FRONT. One command (I forget what key it's on -- just below the delete key) is ANSWER. I was never able to find out what it usually does. But if you type Enable FORTH Language and LEAP to the "e" and then type ANSWER, then ANSWER will change functions and become a "pass the highlighted text to FORTH" key. Also USE FRONT+ Shift+space bar will get you into an interactive FORTH editor. Typing "re" will get you back to the regular word processor. As you can see, that's not exactly intuitive. It's not completely cryptic but it's a bit sneaky. As for the credits screen, I forget the details but it involves searching for a phrase containing "qwerasdfzxcv" or something like that. But the string you have to search for is not stored in ROM in its normal form. And if you're trying this on a CAT and it doesn't work, I'm writing this from memory so I may have missed some of the details. Some interesting pieces of trivia: Canon saw itself as a typewriter manufacturer. As a result, some of the features of the CAT are oriented to the typewriter mindset (no mouse, daisy-wheel printer, monospaced fonts, keyboard layout). There's a set-up screen that allows you to change the keyboard layout for various languages. One entry on the list is blank. It turns out to be Afrikaans; it was hidden to avoid political controversy. The diagram isn't given in the manual either. BTW, I learned a lot of this stuff at the last Vintage Computer Festival (a little more than two weeks ago). Jon Bumgarner, one of the designers, was there and was extremely gracious and candid (admitting weaknesses in the design) and gave a whole heap of his time. I was qute impressed. Jon also pointed out that some of the CAT's design features are patented. So be careful about copying them! -- Derek ###### From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:37:46 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <128iu7.2ej.ln@127.0.0.1> <7uifri$t34$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.19.67.123 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 940419227 IIX5YQT0T437BD413C uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!127.0.0.1!nobody In article <7uifri$t34$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) writes: [...] > Are any of the ones you've used really powerful? > > I've been thinking about what makes a good monitor. The best design I've > come up with would be a small programming environment that let you write > programs to manipulate the main machine (sort of like a software logic > analyzer -- you might have a breakpoint start an extra program which > analyzed the contents of memory to print out a large data structure) > > On a production embedded system that would be overkill. But on a prototype > embedded system it would surely be very useful. :) [...] Some were. On one system, the monitor allowed you to assemble and disassemble, dump and change memory, set hardware breakpoints, examine and modify registers, read and write data via serial and parallel interfaces, load data from a network card, and I *believe* -- I could be misremembering here --- it hard some sort of macro facility. That was the nicest monitor I've ever used. > Seriously, some monitors are only 1-2 steps up from front panels (which can > be very weak -- the PDP-8 panels I've used can't change certain registers, > or can't do it without affect something else). Been there. Done that. It's a pain, especially when you're trying to debug some low-level code that's barfed. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Does a Con Neumann machine run a Make | Play: dgiven@iname.com | Machines Fast scam? +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:53:18 GMT Message-ID: <380ead0a.3004172651@192.168.0.1> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <7uife2$e4u$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <7uj413$uiq$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 940420228 nnrp-07:13255 NO-IDENT bmtech.demon.co.uk:158.152.102.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!bmtech.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 20 Oct 1999 00:57:07 GMT, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) wrote: >One command (I forget what key it's on -- just below the delete key) is >ANSWER. I was never able to find out what it usually does. From memory of a review of the time, it's to evaluate an arithmetic expression in the document and insert the answer. Scott -- (please de-mung address if replying by email) ###### From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> Organization: Transoft Corp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Reply-To: bhahn@transoft.mangle.net (unmangle address to reply) X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 13 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:46:25 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.180.87.35 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: nuq-read.news.verio.net 940452137 205.180.87.35 (Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:42:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:42:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nuq-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!bhahn btomlin@NOSPAM.texas.net (Bruce Tomlin) wrote: [MicroBug] >This is a very stripped down version of MacsBug, which is a true monitor >program. Hit that interrupt button, or command-power, and that's all >that's running. And AFAIK, it's still supported. MicroBug is in ROM, though, built into Mac hardware from the Mac Plus up to the "New World" machines (iMac and later). MacsBug is just a software tool like SoftICE, adb, whatever. It's definitely a better monitor than MicroBug, though. I wonder if MicroBug is still included in the ROM image that the New World machines map from the boot device. I bet it is. bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply ###### From: Martin Ibert Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:27:05 +0200 Organization: The Seventh Heaven, Berlin, Germany Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> <7uhq1g$7n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <380e9c88.2934411260@192.168.0.1> <7ui981$e8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> <7uife2$e4u$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: volterra.home.ibert.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!unlisys!news.snafu.de!home.ibert.com!news On 19 Oct 1999 19:05:38 GMT, dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) wrote: [No help in iMac ROM monitor] >I suppose this allows Apple to meet the Open Firmware standard. But it's >ironic considering the goals of the iMac design. Not at all. If you even know that such things as ROM monitors exist, and a are so audacious as to try and use, the iMac was never designed for you in the first place. -- >> Please visit http://www.ibert.com/ for further information. << ----------------------------------------------------------------- Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Remember the heroes of Tiananmen Square, Beijing, P. R. of China! ###### From: evans_the_swim@dontbothermewithspam.tesco.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Monitor program on micros - last known implementation Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:29:24 GMT Organization: Tesco ISP Lines: 16 Message-ID: <380c73b0.946366263@news.tesco.net> References: <380c618f.2919313450@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.72.146 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:21:48 GMT, scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) wrote: >Some micros used to have monitors in ROM - i.e. a small environment >which would allow reading/writing of registers, >dump/assemble/disassemble memory. The last I came across was a Zenith >8086 PC in about 1984. Any sightings since then? Sun Sparcs had a >similar arrangement with FORTH in ROM - is it still there? > > Xerox 16/8 had one. Was in the /8 side. You had to tell it LH to load the os from the HD. A neat box - could run CM/P 2.2 on the z80 and CP/M86 on the 8086 _concurrently_.