Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") References: <37EBAB89.2A5C8195@uq.net.au> <37ECEB56.18C4BFD3@uq.net.au> <37EE8F86.FA0C3631@earthlink.net> <37F2E578.518D@kan.org> <37f397f2.1294776470@192.168.0.1> <9oP0NxgaAS8yG9vbq97ZUlCNU1bO@4ax.com> <37fcd17a.1637184927@192.168.0.1> <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net> <7uep3g$14os@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 19 Oct 1999 00:18:09 -0700 Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 19 Oct 1999 00:44:32 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Lines: 46 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com In article <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net>, Jordan Bettis writes: > I heard an unconfirmed story once about a guy who plugged a EPROM into a > DIP socket (which would obviously make the EPROM DIP (BTW, do they make > non DIP EPROM?)) backwards. The EPROM 'glowed' red before he realized > his error. > > The EPROM reportedly still worked. > > However, I find it highly unlikely. First, the plastic would melt off > long before the iron or copper became photo lucent, And I think the > silicon would do likewise. I have *personally* witnessed a glowing EPROM. This is not a FOAF story, it actually happened to *me*. But it didn't glow red, and it wasn't plugged in backwards. A red glow, as someone else mentioned, would presumably happen if there was a forward-biased junction acting as an LED. I'm no semiconductor physicist, but I'd think that such a junction would be more likely to emit IR light, and if it wasn't specifically designed to be an LED, I'd expect it to be pretty dim. Anyhow, my glowing EPROM was a 2708 storing the firmware on a Videx Videoterm 80-column card for an Apple ][. Recall that the 2708 uses three power supplies, +5V, +12V, and -5V. The Apple started acting slightly flaky (but not completely disfunctional). I pulled the cover and observed that the 2708 was emitting white light. Closer inspection revealed arcing between two bond wires inside the package. A voltmeter revealed that the +12V supply was being pulled down to about seven volts. I believe this was causing the 16K DRAMs on the Apple ][ motherboard to act flaky; the 80 column card was working fine despite the EPROM problem. I made a copy of the EPROM into a brand-new 2708, put that in the Apple, and had no further problem. I wish I still had that 2708. I don't recall what brand it was. But it was one of the ones that had an additional tiny die inside the package, which was presumably some simple analog circuitry having to do with the programming or bias voltage, and apparently it was easier to do that on a separate die (probably in a bipolar process) rather than integrating it into the NMOS EPROM die. I have personally plugged in EPROMs backwards, had them not work and get hot, but not be permanently damaged. But they didn't glow. Eric ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:32:54 -0700 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <380C8F26.3BC9E8FF@jkmicro.com> References: X-A-Notice: References line has been trimmed due to 512 byte limitation Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Oct 19 10:30:04 1999 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Z7m^1k-W0\V>VW@W`?#IrH/V (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Eric Smith wrote: > > In article <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net>, > Jordan Bettis writes: > > I heard an unconfirmed story once about a guy who plugged a EPROM into a > > DIP socket (which would obviously make the EPROM DIP (BTW, do they make > > non DIP EPROM?)) backwards. The EPROM 'glowed' red before he realized > > his error. It's true and I've seen it, although it is not the chip glowing, but one of the bond wires. Jim ###### From: johnb@invision.co.uk (John Birch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:28:17 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 44 Message-ID: <380c3815.91004117@news.i12.com> References: <37EBAB89.2A5C8195@uq.net.au> <37ECEB56.18C4BFD3@uq.net.au> <37EE8F86.FA0C3631@earthlink.net> <37F2E578.518D@kan.org> <37f397f2.1294776470@192.168.0.1> <9oP0NxgaAS8yG9vbq97ZUlCNU1bO@4ax.com> <37fcd17a.1637184927@192.168.0.1> <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net> <7uep3g$14os@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Reply-To: johnb@invision.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: news2.cluster1.telinco.net X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 940325463 19341 212.1.128.155 (19 Oct 1999 09:31:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 1999 09:31:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!news2.cluster1.telinco.net!ppp-1-214.cvx3.telinco.net On 19 Oct 1999 00:18:09 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >In article <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net>, > Jordan Bettis writes: >> I heard an unconfirmed story once about a guy who plugged a EPROM into a >> DIP socket (which would obviously make the EPROM DIP (BTW, do they make >> non DIP EPROM?)) backwards. The EPROM 'glowed' red before he realized >> his error. >> The EPROM reportedly still worked. >> However, I find it highly unlikely. First, the plastic would melt off >> long before the iron or copper became photo lucent, And I think the >> silicon would do likewise. Iron or copper? Most chips are made from silicon on my planet! >I have *personally* witnessed a glowing EPROM. This is not a FOAF >story, it actually happened to *me*. But it didn't glow red, and it >wasn't plugged in backwards. A red glow, as someone else mentioned, >would presumably happen if there was a forward-biased junction acting >as an LED. I'm no semiconductor physicist, but I'd think that such >a junction would be more likely to emit IR light, and if it wasn't >specifically designed to be an LED, I'd expect it to be pretty dim. I have also reverse polarised EPROMs in a circuit board and had them glow. Not really red, more like light bulb yellow. Yes they got f*&%Ģing hot, yes they still worked afterwards, but I discarded them just in case ;-) I have no idea why they lit up (apart from my error of course), but they sure did look pretty. Not just a one off either, happened a couple of times in the lab I worked in. Would've been either 2716s or 2708s. >I have personally plugged in EPROMs backwards, had them not work and get >hot, but not be permanently damaged. But they didn't glow. Pity, its quite a bright light IIRC, you wouldn't miss it, you could see it through the paper labels we used to use to cover the UV erase window. regards John B. ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Date: 19 Oct 1999 12:15:35 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 73 Message-ID: <7uhnd7$1c90$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <37EBAB89.2A5C8195@uq.net.au> <37ECEB56.18C4BFD3@uq.net.au> <37EE8F86.FA0C3631@earthlink.net> <37F2E578.518D@kan.org> <37f397f2.1294776470@192.168.0.1> <9oP0NxgaAS8yG9vbq97ZUlCNU1bO@4ax.com> <37fcd17a.1637184927@192.168.0.1> <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net> <7uep3g$14os@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <380c3815.91004117@news.i12.com> Reply-To: wa4qal@vnet.ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nyd.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!news2atm!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <380c3815.91004117@news.i12.com>, johnb@invision.co.uk (John Birch) writes: >On 19 Oct 1999 00:18:09 -0700, Eric Smith > wrote: > >>In article <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net>, >> Jordan Bettis writes: >>> I heard an unconfirmed story once about a guy who plugged a EPROM into a >>> DIP socket (which would obviously make the EPROM DIP (BTW, do they make >>> non DIP EPROM?)) backwards. The EPROM 'glowed' red before he realized >>> his error. > >>> The EPROM reportedly still worked. > >>> However, I find it highly unlikely. First, the plastic would melt off >>> long before the iron or copper became photo lucent, And I think the >>> silicon would do likewise. > >Iron or copper? Most chips are made from silicon on my planet! > >>I have *personally* witnessed a glowing EPROM. This is not a FOAF >>story, it actually happened to *me*. But it didn't glow red, and it >>wasn't plugged in backwards. A red glow, as someone else mentioned, >>would presumably happen if there was a forward-biased junction acting >>as an LED. I'm no semiconductor physicist, but I'd think that such >>a junction would be more likely to emit IR light, and if it wasn't >>specifically designed to be an LED, I'd expect it to be pretty dim. > >I have also reverse polarised EPROMs in a circuit board and had them >glow. Not really red, more like light bulb yellow. Yes they got >f*&%Ģing hot, yes they still worked afterwards, but I discarded them >just in case ;-) I have no idea why they lit up (apart from my error >of course), but they sure did look pretty. Not just a one off either, >happened a couple of times in the lab I worked in. Would've been >either 2716s or 2708s. > >>I have personally plugged in EPROMs backwards, had them not work and get >>hot, but not be permanently damaged. But they didn't glow. > >Pity, its quite a bright light IIRC, you wouldn't miss it, you could >see it through the paper labels we used to use to cover the UV erase >window. > > >regards John B. > I'd guess it was either Aluminum or Gold that was doing the glowing. Examine an EPROM through the Quartz window, and look for the bond wires. These are usually either Gold or Aluminum, and are quite small in size. When you pass a sufficent current through them, they get hot, really hot, and function just like the filament in a light bulb. Of course, the don't function like this very long since the melting points of Aluminum and Gold are rather low (not like Tungsten). I've heard stories that some chip technologies can act like LEDs while operating. I seem to remember that GaAs chips were good at this (Galium Arsenide is used to make some high speed chips, low noise RF amplifiers, and LEDs, although I've never heard of an EPROM being made from it.). I also seem to remember that Silicon doesn't function very well as an LED since the electrons tend not to drop directly into the holes with production of light. And, even if it does produce some light, it would be rather far into the infrared region due to the band gap level of Silicon. However, it might be interesting to examine a Silicon chip with a IR-scope. Someone, from ages ago, told me of looking at a chip and seeing lights winking on and off. But, that's been so long ago I can't remember the details. Dave P.S. Standard Disclaimer: I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:21:57 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 8 Message-ID: <380CA8B4.4DF86E52@plano.net> References: <940363992.24299.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!195.224.165.20.MISMATCH!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail It seems to be established in this thread that EPROM's can emit light under some certain unusual circumstances. So would it be possible for an EPROM to emit the right frequency light to *erase* itself? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: btomlin@NOSPAM.texas.net (Bruce Tomlin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Message-ID: References: <37EBAB89.2A5C8195@uq.net.au> <37ECEB56.18C4BFD3@uq.net.au> <37EE8F86.FA0C3631@earthlink.net> <37F2E578.518D@kan.org> <37f397f2.1294776470@192.168.0.1> <9oP0NxgaAS8yG9vbq97ZUlCNU1bO@4ax.com> <37fcd17a.1637184927@192.168.0.1> <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net> <7uep3g$14os@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <380c3815.91004117@news.i12.com> <7uhnd7$1c90$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> Organization: San Antonio, TX Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:40:44 CDT X-Trace: sv2-UbjQ3DgZwGq2MpsIdEtKwGZlVVN1l4gHry4dM9JcVA5j19mBBhM1rbTAmTcscUOI/cijq7NMbSd1HT3!xup2orzRVntBUQ0Vkglld2Pj X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:43:01 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!atuin.bruce!user In article <7uhnd7$1c90$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, wa4qal@vnet.ibm.net wrote: > >>> However, I find it highly unlikely. First, the plastic would melt off > >>> long before the iron or copper became photo lucent, And I think the > >>> silicon would do likewise. > > > >Iron or copper? Most chips are made from silicon on my planet! Plastic? Plastic EPROMs *can't* have windows. Something about getting humidity inside the chip or something like that. If it has a window, it has to be ceramic. And the chip die would go bad long before the ceramic could melt. > >>I have *personally* witnessed a glowing EPROM. This is not a FOAF > >>story, it actually happened to *me*. But it didn't glow red, and it > >>wasn't plugged in backwards. A red glow, as someone else mentioned, I've accidentally put +5 volts 1 amp directly across an LED twice. Both times the top exploded off. The second was a really tiny LED, but the first bounced off a lens of my glasses! > >>I have personally plugged in EPROMs backwards, had them not work and get > >>hot, but not be permanently damaged. But they didn't glow. AMD 27C128s go bad when you plug them in backwards. A couple of the data line output drivers must get blown out, because you can still sort of read the data programmed into the chip. Oh yeah, and they go bad if you tell the programmer to program them as 27128 non-CMOS chips. ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:13:12 GMT Message-ID: <940363992.24299.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 940363992 nnrp-07:24299 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Jim Stewart wrote: >Eric Smith wrote: >> >> In article <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net>, >> Jordan Bettis writes: >> > I heard an unconfirmed story once about a guy who plugged a EPROM into a >> > DIP socket (which would obviously make the EPROM DIP (BTW, do they make >> > non DIP EPROM?)) backwards. The EPROM 'glowed' red before he realized >> > his error. >It's true and I've seen it, although it is not the chip glowing, but one >of the bond wires. Diodes, at least some glass signal diodes can also glow, (it again is the bond wire) -- http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. Two parrots sitting on a perch. One asks the other, "Can you smell fish?" ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:01:32 GMT Message-ID: <940431692.5148.0.nnrp-11.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <940363992.24299.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <380CA8B4.4DF86E52@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 940431692 nnrp-11:5148 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Charles Richmond wrote: >It seems to be established in this thread that EPROM's can emit >light under some certain unusual circumstances. So would it be possible >for an EPROM to emit the right frequency light to *erase* itself? No, however, if it emits enough light, it becomes a WOM. -- http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ | Cheap electronics/PC bits for sale. -------------------------------------+-----------------------------Ian-Stirling. He who lives in a glass house should not invite he who is without sin. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") References: <940363992.24299.0.nnrp-07.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <380CA8B4.4DF86E52@plano.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 20 Oct 1999 17:02:54 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 20 Oct 1999 17:29:58 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Charles Richmond writes: > It seems to be established in this thread that EPROM's can emit > light under some certain unusual circumstances. So would it be possible > for an EPROM to emit the right frequency light to *erase* itself? I expect that in the case on which I reported personal experience, in which there was arcing between the bond wires, that the light emitted from the arc probably had enough short-wave UV to eventually erase the part. But at the time that I replaced it, it still was reading just fine. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ns8rl@bath.ac.uk (R Lucas) Subject: Re: Glowing EPROMS (was Re: What is "Firmware") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Organization: School of Natural Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:52:15 GMT Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!server2.netnews.ja.net!bath.ac.uk!ns8rl In article , Jim Stewart writes: > Eric Smith wrote: >> >> In article <380A018B.8379DCED@davesworld.net>, >> Jordan Bettis writes: >> > I heard an unconfirmed story once about a guy who plugged a EPROM into a >> > DIP socket (which would obviously make the EPROM DIP (BTW, do they make >> > non DIP EPROM?)) backwards. The EPROM 'glowed' red before he realized >> > his error. > > It's true and I've seen it, although it is not the chip glowing, but one > of the bond wires. > > Jim This happened to me a little while ago, with a ROM board (for software on ROM chips) plugged into the back of an old Amstrad CPC. I powered the machine up, and immediately got flashes of white light from the window of the chip. This was bright enough to be seen clearly through the paper label stuck over the window. After switching off and cursing loudly, I put it back in the right way round. It worked perfectly, and still does. I've accidentally killed another EPROM this way, when the label was too opaque to see the glow. Rayner