[large thread snipped, only ZX80/81 stuff keapt]

######

From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33
Date: 21 Sep 1999 10:35:33 GMT
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[Removed the PDP newsgroups.]

fungus (spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com) wrote:

: Bill Gunshannon wrote:
: > 
: > (Joe Smith) writes:
: > |>
: > |> The first time the Macintosh guys saw the Amiga 1000, they#
: > |> said it was impossible to do color with just a 68K CPU.
: > 
: > Well, that just shows how little those Macintosh guys knew about
: > computers. Not only does any processor (even an Alpha) need video
: > support hardware, but we were doing color with no problem before
: > the 68K even existed.  All this using 6809's and even 2Mhz Z80's.
: > 

: Well....yes, and no.

: The Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81 did the video in software on a 4MHz
: Z80 (if anybody knows how they did it, I'd love to know).


: The aforementioned Amiga drove the 8MHz system bus to the limit.

You are confusing the system bus with the chip data bus.  They are both
clocked at about 7 MHz, if I remember correctly.  The 68000 takes 4
cycles for each memory access.  On the chip data bus, each transfer
takes 2 cycles.

: With six video bitplanes enabled the 68000 could only fetch
: instructions in the screen "border" areas and during vertical
: flyback. This made it run sloooooow.....

That only happened when you used 4 bitplanes in hi-res.  With 6 planes
in lo-res, a quarter of the cycles were still available during screen
refresh periods, and the 68000 could run at around half speed during
that time.

-- 
Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
From: wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 
Reply-To: wtshyman@NOUCE.mb.sympatico.ca
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In <37ED9D43.3CD03009@sprynet.com>, Phil Hays <spampostmaster@sprynet.com> writes:
>fungus wrote:
>
>> The fact is that people did 256x192 pixel high res screens in
>> software on a 3.5MHz Z80. The screen could also be dynamicly
>> sized on a 1k RAM machine. 

<snip>

>> I've done the sums, and it doesn't add up. That CPU just isn't
>> fast enough to feed any reasonable amount of info into some
>> video hardware.
>
>I did the test engineering (and a tiny part of the design) for a very
>simple asic to do the same function for a Timex 1500, which was made
>under license from Sinclair.  The CPU did real work during the
>horizontal retrace.  At the end of this time, the CPU was interrupted,
>and vectored to the start of display memory.  The asic then forced NOPs
>into the CPU and sent the data to the display.  The NOPs forced the CPU
>counted through display memory.  The display list (and this memory is a
>tad fuzzy, so please correct me if I'm wrong) was terminated by a
>special character, which ended the display and was the last instruction
>NOPed, and then a return instruction to return the CPU back to doing
>real work for a fraction of a second till the start of the next screen.


This sounds similar to what I recall of one of the techniques described in 
Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" - basically using the CPU to act 
as an address generator whilst the data was routed to the video output.  

Thankfully video hardware has gotten so much cheaper since those days
that no-one needs to pull off clever hacks such as this any more. 



Bill
wtshyman@mb.sympatico.ca.NOUCE


>
>-- 
>Phil Hays
>"Irritatingly,  science claims to set limits on what 
>we can do,  even in principle."   Carl Sagan

######

From: Phil Hays <spampostmaster@sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 
	 Typing Element))
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 21:12:51 -0700
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fungus wrote:

> The fact is that people did 256x192 pixel high res screens in
> software on a 3.5MHz Z80. The screen could also be dynamicly
> sized on a 1k RAM machine. Wach line of characters was a different
> length, the more text you had on screen, the less RAM there was
> for your program. You could write programs which ran but could
> only be listed on screen a line at a time.
> 
> I've done the sums, and it doesn't add up. That CPU just isn't
> fast enough to feed any reasonable amount of info into some
> video hardware.

I did the test engineering (and a tiny part of the design) for a very
simple asic to do the same function for a Timex 1500, which was made
under license from Sinclair.  The CPU did real work during the
horizontal retrace.  At the end of this time, the CPU was interrupted,
and vectored to the start of display memory.  The asic then forced NOPs
into the CPU and sent the data to the display.  The NOPs forced the CPU
counted through display memory.  The display list (and this memory is a
tad fuzzy, so please correct me if I'm wrong) was terminated by a
special character, which ended the display and was the last instruction
NOPed, and then a return instruction to return the CPU back to doing
real work for a fraction of a second till the start of the next screen.

The major difference between the ZX81 and the Timex 1500 was that the
Timex 1500 had a big memory: 16 whole kilo bytes of dynamic RAM!  The
tiny bit of design I did was to correct a bug in the RAS logic at the
start of a display line.


-- 
Phil Hays
"Irritatingly,  science claims to set limits on what 
we can do,  even in principle."   Carl Sagan

######

From: Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  	 Typing Element))
Date: 25 Sep 1999 22:52:14 -0700
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By the way, the ZX80 has become one of those classic collectables, so a
little hunting on the web will find you the schematics to recreate one,
plus (I think) at least the binaries of the ROM.

(I don't THINK anyone has done a ZX81 clone with a modern FPGA replacing
the ASIC, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one, either.)

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)

######

From: Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy & the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 
 Typing Element))
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:47:50 -0400
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Bill Westfield wrote:
> 
>     >...impossible to do color with just a 68K CPU.  They were right,
>     >the 68000 needed help from some semisophisticated non-CPU
>     >microchips to do the job.
> 
>     Actually, they weren't....take a look at the Atari ST.
> 
> And of course the venerable Apple ][ managed to do color with just a 6502
> and some SSI/MSI.  Depending on your definition of "do color", I guess.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that by the time the Amiga came out, there were several
> color "Graphics Display Chips" that implemented color at "reasonable"
> resolutions and quite remarkable system simplicity (I'm thinking things like
> the TI9918 - aimed somewhat hopelessly at the video game industry, for the
> most part.)
> 
> Which was the first "micro" to implement at least 320*240*8 (from a palette
> of at least 8bits/primary color)?  I think I'd consider that "real color"
> (the $$$$$ Ramtec display I used in college was something like 320*240*36))
> It took IBM's EGA and VGA and so on to push up the resolution I guess, but
> was there anyone who went far on perpixel bits before that?
Well, Micro is hardenough to define.
What about the Bally Arcade? Predates the ZX80 adn Sinclair Z80 machines
by a couple of years.
IT had a z80A, dedicated graphics chip, with memory window, to do some
number of bits per pixel.
Just a simple little game console, with the capability to add keyboard,
cpm, disk etc.
Does that fit "micro" definition?
And, I think the cromemco proc product had color as an option.
These were all late 70s technologies.
bob


> 
> BillW
> --
> (remove spam food from return address)

######

From: Sheila&bob/Herbal Gypsy & the Tinker <shsrms@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 
 Typing Element))
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:57:45 -0400
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I have the schematic for the zx81, and It is just a flipflop with serial
output to oscillator.
The same concept was used by John Kirk (8 engineering) in the VT8E, for
typeset 8 efforts about 
73 0r 74 I think.
bob


fungus wrote:
> 
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >
> > (Joe Smith) writes:
> > |>
> > |> The first time the Macintosh guys saw the Amiga 1000, they#
> > |> said it was impossible to do color with just a 68K CPU.
> >
> > Well, that just shows how little those Macintosh guys knew about
> > computers. Not only does any processor (even an Alpha) need video
> > support hardware, but we were doing color with no problem before
> > the 68K even existed.  All this using 6809's and even 2Mhz Z80's.
> >
> 
> Well....yes, and no.
> 
> The Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81 did the video in software on a 4MHz
> Z80 (if anybody knows how they did it, I'd love to know).
> 
> The aforementioned Amiga drove the 8MHz system bus to the limit.
> With six video bitplanes enabled the 68000 could only fetch
> instructions in the screen "border" areas and during vertical
> flyback. This made it run sloooooow.....
> 
> --
> <\___/>
> / O O \
> \_____/  FTB.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 
 Typing Element))
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <37e405ce$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7s56tp$cmi$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> <37E6BF06.79DFDF26@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
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In article <37E6BF06.79DFDF26@egg.chips.and.spam.com>,
fungus  <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
>The Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81 did the video in software on a 4MHz
>Z80 (if anybody knows how they did it, I'd love to know).

All I remember is, you weren't allowed to touch some of the registers (IX
and IY I think, I forget whether you were allowed to use the alternative set
either), at all, ever, in your assembly language code.  So evidently the poor
little beast was flat on its back doing it all on interrupts most of the
time (unless you put it in "fast" mode and turned off the video display),
and needed to have its pointers etc. handy rather than wasting time saving
and restoring regs.  Pretty cheesy design but then again, the thing sure was
small, and it really did work.  People joked that it made a better doorstop
than computer, but it didn't even weigh enough for that!

John Wilson
D Bit

######

From: alderson@netcom2.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 
 Typing Element))
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
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In article <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net> wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes:

>In article <37E6BF06.79DFDF26@egg.chips.and.spam.com>,
>fungus  <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:

>>The Sinclair ZX80 and ZX81 did the video in software on a 4MHz
>>Z80 (if anybody knows how they did it, I'd love to know).

>People joked that it made a better doorstop than computer, but it didn't even
>weigh enough for that!

I think they meant the wedge-type doorstop, where it's friction against the
floor that keeps the door open...

######

From: Bill Westfield <billw@iwan-view4.cisco.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33   Typing Element))
Date: 24 Sep 1999 17:26:18 -0700
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Don Lancaster did some "cheap TV" stuff (for 6502, and/or maybe 1802, I
think) where the external hardware for video was little more than a shift
register and some level shifters.  Every 60th of second, you'd run the video
display routine, which would consist of little more than a series of
fetch-memory instructions (where you didn't do anything with what you
fetched.)  The video hardware, such as it was, sniffed the bus and grabbed
the data as it passed by, sending it to the level shifting circuitry.
Something like a 6502 running at nominal clock rates could fetch data at
sufficient rates to get out quite a bit of dots on the screen.  (let's see.
To get 256x192 out in 1/100 second (save some cycles for actual computing)
32, you only have to fetch 620k bytes/second, which isn't that tough.)
(these were the same people designing 3x5 dot fonts so they could fit more
text on such a screen.)

As someone has pointed out, there are people currently writing code for PICs
and the like that write video to a screen using nothing more than a couple
of resistors (not high resolution video, but it's still a neat hack.)

BillW
-- 
(remove spam food from return address)

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33   Typing Element))
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In article <54d7v7kf9x.fsf@iwan-view4.cisco.com>,
Bill Westfield  <billw@iwan-view4.cisco.com> wrote:
>(these were the same people designing 3x5 dot fonts so they could fit more
>text on such a screen.)

Just the other day, I designed a 4x6 font for the full ASCII char set
(upper and lower case, plus all the symbols) that is actually readable,
at least on a low-resolution screen.  (It is quite readable at 640x480
on my 21" monitor at work; when the monitor is at 1600x1200, though, it
becomes more difficult.)

It includes one-pixel gutters (for letterspacing and leading) around
every character, though, so you could claim it's 3x5.  But I think it
would be utterly illegible if the gutters were removed.  How did anyone
make legible text in a 3x5 character cell?

The font is at http://pobox.com/~kragen/tiny2.bdf and is in the public
domain.

I have removed the PDP groups from the Newsgroups: line because I think
this thread stopped being relevant to them long ago.
-- 
<kragen@pobox.com>       Kragen Sitaker     <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
Thu Sep 23 1999
46 days until the Internet stock bubble bursts on Monday, 1999-11-08.
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/bubble.html>

######

Date: 22 Sep 99 13:54:22 -0800
From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing E
References: <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net><slrn7ugbfu.u4.dowe@162.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net><37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net> <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <474.934T1142T8344827@sky.bus.com>
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In article <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1> dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
writes:

>You know, you may have hit on something here. Could it be that the
>ZX8[01] were so successful *because* they were crap? You had to spend
>so much time kludging round their inadequacies that you became a
>programmer almost by default...

You may have stumbled across the secret of Windows' success...

--
cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.

######

Date: 22 Sep 99 17:06:32 -0800
From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing E
References: <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net> <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net> <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1> <474.934T1142T8344827@sky.bus.com> <6vjbs7.hj62.ln@jdcochran.fiawol.org>
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In article <6vjbs7.hj62.ln@jdcochran.fiawol.org> jdc@jdcochran.fiawol.org
(John Cochran) writes:

>In article <474.934T1142T8344827@sky.bus.com>,
>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1> dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
>>writes:
>>
>>>You know, you may have hit on something here. Could it be that the
>>>ZX8[01] were so successful *because* they were crap? You had to spend
>>>so much time kludging round their inadequacies that you became a
>>>programmer almost by default...
>>
>>You may have stumbled across the secret of Windows' success...
>
>Naaaa..
>
>If that was the case, there would be a lot more programmers out there.
>I haven't seen many signs of such happening.

Darn, I was looking at the words "kludging" and "inadequacies" and
didn't pay enough attention to the "programmer" part.  Certainly
your average Windows vict^H^H^H^Huser spends a lot of time kludging,
re-installing, formatting...

--
cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.

######

From: jdc@jdcochran.fiawol.org (John Cochran)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing E
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:07:34 -0400
Organization: Unknown
Lines: 19
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References: <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net> <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net> <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1> <474.934T1142T8344827@sky.bus.com>
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In article <474.934T1142T8344827@sky.bus.com>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>In article <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1> dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
>writes:
>
>>You know, you may have hit on something here. Could it be that the
>>ZX8[01] were so successful *because* they were crap? You had to spend
>>so much time kludging round their inadequacies that you became a
>>programmer almost by default...
>
>You may have stumbled across the secret of Windows' success...
Naaaa..

If that was the case, there would be a lot more programmers out there.
I haven't seen many signs of such happening.

Later,
John Cochran

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing E
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 08:11:33 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <6vjbs7.hj62.ln@jdcochran.fiawol.org>,
   jdc@jdcochran.fiawol.org (John Cochran) wrote:
>In article <474.934T1142T8344827@sky.bus.com>,
>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@sky.bus.com> wrote:
>>In article <49sas7.u9f.ln@127.0.0.1> dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
>>writes:
>>
>>>You know, you may have hit on something here. Could it be that the
>>>ZX8[01] were so successful *because* they were crap? You had to spend
>>>so much time kludging round their inadequacies that you became a
>>>programmer almost by default...
>>
>>You may have stumbled across the secret of Windows' success...
>Naaaa..
>
>If that was the case, there would be a lot more programmers out there.
>I haven't seen many signs of such happening.

Well, that's what happens when sources aren't shipped with the
executables and debugging tools.  We shipped sources 
and ended up with really sophisticated customers.  The 
down side was that a couple of them became a real PITA 
because they "wasted" our time with in appropriately 
ranked bug reports.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: dowe@localhost.localdomain (Dowe Keller)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
Date: 22 Sep 1999 01:11:15 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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On 21 Sep 1999 11:30:53 -0400, John Wilson <wilson@dbit.com> wrote:

>All I remember is, you weren't allowed to touch some of the registers (IX
>and IY I think, I forget whether you were allowed to use the alternative set
>either), at all, ever, in your assembly language code.  So evidently the poor
>little beast was flat on its back doing it all on interrupts most of the
>time (unless you put it in "fast" mode and turned off the video display),
>and needed to have its pointers etc. handy rather than wasting time saving
>and restoring regs.  Pretty cheesy design but then again, the thing sure was
>small, and it really did work.  People joked that it made a better doorstop
>than computer, but it didn't even weigh enough for that!

Hey, is that the same thing as the Timex/Sinclair 1000, That was my very
first computer (I saved up all of my money for it when I was 12 years old). 
What sticks in my mind most about it was the weird keyboard layout. It
actually was a relatively usefull computer exept for the very limited memory.
Anyway, I remember that it was much speedier in fast mode, but I hardly ever
used it that way because the flicker would damn near induce sesures :-)

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <37E6BF06.79DFDF26@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net> <slrn7ugbfu.u4.dowe@162.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com
Message-ID: <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net>
Date: 22 Sep 1999 10:36:41 -0400
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In article <slrn7ugbfu.u4.dowe@162.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
Dowe Keller <dowe@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>Hey, is that the same thing as the Timex/Sinclair 1000, That was my very
>first computer (I saved up all of my money for it when I was 12 years old). 

Yeah that's it -- the TS1000 was the same as the ZX81.  The ZX80 was an earlier
version which was also available in kit form.

>What sticks in my mind most about it was the weird keyboard layout.

Forget the layout, that membrane keyboard *felt* horrible!  You couldn't
feel what you were doing even if you did know where the "keys" were, and the
"connector" (if you can call it that, stripped ends of flexprint cable IIRC)
to the PC board was flakey, at least on mine, so I kept having to take it
apart and reseat the cable just to keep both halves of the keyboard working.

The computer was utter crap, but I *am* grateful that mine happened to come
with some weird version of FORTH-78.  I couldn't get the stupid cassette to
load (did those things EVER work?!), but I later used the tiny manual as a
reference to write my own PC-DOS FORTH as a weekend project (I was taking
a class where they'd assigned us the ol' RPN calculator project, and I got
carried away), and then did versions (to the FIST FORTH-79 standard this time)
for RSTS, RT-11, TOPS-20, TSS/8, and finally my own stand-alone multi-user
FORTH OS for the PDP-11 (PDT-11/150 originally but then I extended it to
support RLs, RKs, DECtape, and it can autosize the DL11 TTY ports).  Now *that*
was a fun project, all because that P.O.S. Sinclair didn't work right!

John Wilson
D Bit

######

From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:23:16 +0100
Organization: I'm organised? Wow!
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In article <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net>,
	wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes:
[...]
> The computer was utter crap, but I *am* grateful that mine happened to come
> with some weird version of FORTH-78.  I couldn't get the stupid cassette to
> load (did those things EVER work?!), but I later used the tiny manual as a
[...]

You know, you may have hit on something here. Could it be that the ZX8[01]
were so successful *because* they were crap? You had to spend so much time
kludging round their inadequacies that you became a programmer almost by
default...

-- 
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ 
|  Work: dg@tao-group.com         | No lawyers were harmed in the creation of
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com         | this post. I'll try harder next time.       
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ 

######

From: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:34:54 +0100
Organization: WinterMute
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <7sbkl1$qvs$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Reply-To: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk>
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Hi,

  >....Could it be that the ZX8[01] were so successful *because*
  >they were crap? You had to spend so much time kludging round
  >their inadequacies that you became a programmer almost by
  >default...

I think that's quite correct.

I cut my programming teeth on CP/M systems around 1978. Although I learnt a
lot from those it wasn't until I got a ZX-80 in 1980 that I *REALLY* found
out how challenging assembly language could be.

You really had to be on the ball to get around the (severe) limitations of
both the '80 and the '81, both of which were barely a step up from machines
like the MK.14, SYM 1 etc etc

What I learned from those machines really helped when I went to Polytechnic,
and when I graduated to an Atari 400. :-)


  TTFN - Pete.

--
Spam deflector in effect - it's obvious!

"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - J.T.Kirk

Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
--

######

From: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@wintermute.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:57:04 +0100
Organization: WinterMute
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <7sh0l9$4f3$2@gxsn.com>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <37E6BF06.79DFDF26@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net> <slrn7ugbfu.u4.dowe@162.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net>
Reply-To: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@wintermute.org.uk>
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Hi John,

  > Yeah that's it -- the TS1000 was the same as the ZX81.  The ZX80 was
  >an earlier version which was also available in kit form.

In fact the ZX-81 was also available in kit form; they were priced at £69.99
for the kit or £99.99 for the ready built unit (same as the ZX-80). It wasn't
until the release of the ZX Spectrum that Sir Clive stopped releasing machines
in kit form.

I actually built my '81 from a kit....in early '82 when they were selling off
the kits at £29.99 through "Sinclair User". First of many similar projects....


  TTFN - Pete.

--
Spam deflector in effect - it's obvious!

"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - J.T.Kirk

Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
--

######

From: mick@mixtel.demon.co.uk (Form@C)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 06:32:04 GM
Message-ID: <37ed6b61.1369936@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <37E6BF06.79DFDF26@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <37e7a4ad_3@news.wizvax.net> <slrn7ugbfu.u4.dowe@162.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net>
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On 22 Sep 1999 10:36:41 -0400, wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) wrote:

<snip?
>The computer was utter crap, but I *am* grateful that mine happened to come
                                 ^^^^^^^  pardon?
The ZX81 was very clever. It used the Z80 to update the screen (which is why you
get the flash in fast mode). It is probably the only micro based machine in
which the micro actually does something really important all the time!

>with some weird version of FORTH-78.  I couldn't get the stupid cassette to
>load (did those things EVER work?!), but I later used the tiny manual as a
>reference to write my own PC-DOS FORTH as a weekend project (I was taking
>a class where they'd assigned us the ol' RPN calculator project, and I got
>carried away), and then did versions (to the FIST FORTH-79 standard this time)
>for RSTS, RT-11, TOPS-20, TSS/8, and finally my own stand-alone multi-user
>FORTH OS for the PDP-11 (PDT-11/150 originally but then I extended it to
>support RLs, RKs, DECtape, and it can autosize the DL11 TTY ports).  Now *that*
>was a fun project, all because that P.O.S. Sinclair didn't work right!

IIRC you could get a FORTH rom that would just replace the ZX81 one to give a
FORTH native machine. That may have appealed to you John!



--
Mick

NASCOM enthusiast? Try http://www.mixtel.demon.co.uk 
UK home of the first British home computer.

Also Rough Audio at http://www.mixtel.demon.co.uk/audio

######

From: scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:44:59 GMT
Message-ID: <37ed7239.760831227@192.168.0.1>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <7rdbrn$2c7$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <37dee381$0$17161@nntp1.ba.best.com> <qh1zbznade.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <37e405ce$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7s56tp$cmi$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>
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On 20 Sep 1999 11:48:09 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

>Not only does any processor (even an Alpha) need video support hardware

Sinclair ZX-81?

Scott
-- 
(please de-mung address if replying by email)

######

From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: 24 Sep 1999 13:39:02 GMT
Organization: Computing Sciences Department, University of Scranton
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In article <37ed7239.760831227@192.168.0.1>, scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) writes:
|> On 20 Sep 1999 11:48:09 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
|> 
|> >Not only does any processor (even an Alpha) need video support hardware
|> 
|> Sinclair ZX-81?

Let's not confuse lack of a dedicated VLSI graphics processor with no
video support hardware.  All of these computers (I had a TRS80 long
before Clive Sinclair entered the market) used discrete chips to take
data and make it NTSC (or in Europe I would guess PAL) video.  Later
companies like TI mashed all this discrete logic into dedicated chips
and made the job a lot easier. (I had an external color graphics box
that hooked to the expansion port of my TRS80)  But no processor I
know of has a pin labeled "TV Out".  And you can't just spit bits at
a picture tube.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill@cs.uofs.edu         |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <7s56tp$cmi$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> <37ed7239.760831227@192.168.0.1> <7sfutm$1gp$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>
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In article <7sfutm$1gp$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>,
Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
>Let's not confuse lack of a dedicated VLSI graphics processor with no
>video support hardware.  All of these computers (I had a TRS80 long
>before Clive Sinclair entered the market) used discrete chips to take
>data and make it NTSC (or in Europe I would guess PAL) video.  Later
>companies like TI mashed all this discrete logic into dedicated chips
>and made the job a lot easier.

Someone said the ZX81 used four chips, one of which was a PAL.  Perhaps
that substituted for the discrete logic?  Or am I confused?

> (I had an external color graphics box
>that hooked to the expansion port of my TRS80)  But no processor I
>know of has a pin labeled "TV Out".

I believe the MuP21 has something roughly equivalent to a TV Out pin.
-- 
<kragen@pobox.com>       Kragen Sitaker     <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
Thu Sep 23 1999
46 days until the Internet stock bubble bursts on Monday, 1999-11-08.
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/bubble.html>

######

From: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 21:16:14 +0100
Organization: WinterMute
Lines: 35
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Hi,

  > Someone said the ZX81 used four chips, one of which
  >was a PAL. Perhaps that substituted for the discrete
  >logic?  Or am I confused?

Actually it wasn't a PAL but an early ULA (manufactured by Ferranti IIRC).

The ULA replaced the board full of TTL logic needed in the original '80. The
chip produced the video output as well as "gluing" the rest of the system
together - address decoding, etc - but only because it was a replacement for
the TTL logic chips which did the job in the ZX-80. IE The chip wasn't
"intelligent" or programmable.

The video signal was produced via software; the processor was interrupted
every 64 microseconds and output a stream of bits which made up the scanline
being displayed at that point (not entirely unlike the Atari 2600).

Oh, for the record the ZX-81 was comprised of 5 chips: the Z80, the ULA, the
8K BASIC/BIOS ROM and a pair of 2114 RAMs.


  TTFN - Pete.

--
Spam deflector in effect - it's obvious!

"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - J.T.Kirk

Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
--

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:32:08 -0600
Organization: Systematic Software
Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca
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On 24 Sep 1999 13:39:02 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
wrote:

>In article <37ed7239.760831227@192.168.0.1>, scottw@bmtech.co.uk_DELETE_THIS (Scott Wheeler) writes:
>|> On 20 Sep 1999 11:48:09 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>|> 
>|> >Not only does any processor (even an Alpha) need video support hardware
>|> 
>|> Sinclair ZX-81?
>
>Let's not confuse lack of a dedicated VLSI graphics processor with no
>video support hardware.  All of these computers (I had a TRS80 long
>before Clive Sinclair entered the market) used discrete chips to take
>data and make it NTSC (or in Europe I would guess PAL) video.  Later
>companies like TI mashed all this discrete logic into dedicated chips
>and made the job a lot easier. (I had an external color graphics box
>that hooked to the expansion port of my TRS80)  But no processor I
>know of has a pin labeled "TV Out".  And you can't just spit bits at
>a picture tube.
>
>bill

The ZX80/81/TS1000 only did user work in the blanking intervals. 
Unless you enabled FAST mode which did no display, just got hash.

The video hardware was a TTL port connected to an RF modulator. 
The CPU ran in tight loops with interrupts disabled to perform
all the functions of a CRT controller and generate the display. 
Ever heard of a video DSP? That is the video support hardware! 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
-- 
Brian_Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
				use address above to reply

######

From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:15:03 -0600
Organization: Software Solutions, Inc
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <37ED3B57.B4BD96ED@srv.net>
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Brian Inglis wrote:
> The ZX80/81/TS1000 only did user work in the blanking intervals.
> Unless you enabled FAST mode which did no display, just got hash.
> 
> The video hardware was a TTL port connected to an RF modulator.
> The CPU ran in tight loops with interrupts disabled to perform
> all the functions of a CRT controller and generate the display.
> Ever heard of a video DSP? That is the video support hardware!
> Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis         Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Better not let the MicroSoft croud know about this sort of hack,
or you'll start to see WinVGA boards to match the WinModem boards
they're pushing now.

Anyone else notice that this thread is off topic more than it
is on?

######

From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: 25 Sep 1999 17:37:22 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Lines: 8
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bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

>But no processor I know of has a pin labeled "TV Out".

MuP21 has a composite video output.  I believe there have been others too,
but it's pretty rare.

John West

######

From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: 25 Sep 1999 22:07:20 GMT
Organization: ABB Network Management
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In article <37ED3B57.B4BD96ED@srv.net>, Kevin Handy  <kth@srv.net> wrote:
> Better not let the MicroSoft croud know about this sort of hack,
> or you'll start to see WinVGA boards to match the WinModem boards
> they're pushing now.

Oh god. There really ARE Things Man Was Not meant To Know.

-- 
In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <peter@baileynm.com>
 `-_-'   Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 
  'U`    "You are trapped in a maze of screens and ssh sessions all alike."
         "It is dark, and you are likely to log off the wrong account." -- Nep.

######

From: Ariel Scolnicov <ariels@compugen.co.il>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: 26 Sep 1999 10:33:36 +0200
Organization: NetVision Israel	
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peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:

> In article <37ED3B57.B4BD96ED@srv.net>, Kevin Handy  <kth@srv.net> wrote:
> > Better not let the MicroSoft croud know about this sort of hack,
> > or you'll start to see WinVGA boards to match the WinModem boards
> > they're pushing now.
> 
> Oh god. There really ARE Things Man Was Not meant To Know.

"Display degradation occurs if viewing the screen while connected
 to The Internet (tm) with WinModem.  Recommended fix: Do not view
 screen while WinModem is connected."

-- 
Ariel Scolnicov

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <7sfutm$1gp$2@info.cs.uofs.edu> <cZMG3.28480$I6.495359@typ12.nn.bcandid.com> <7sgmqq$mf9$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com
Message-ID: <37eee059_3@news.wizvax.net>
Date: 26 Sep 1999 23:11:21 -0400
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In article <7sgmqq$mf9$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Peter Pachla <my.name@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Oh, for the record the ZX-81 was comprised of 5 chips: the Z80, the ULA, the
>8K BASIC/BIOS ROM and a pair of 2114 RAMs.

I remember noticing on mine that there was a 24-pin DIP pattern under the
two 2114s.  So it looks like they were at least *thinking* of substituting
a single 6116, or something like that?  That would have gotten it down to
4, if they ever actually did it, but I suppose it was a while before those
handy 8-bit SRAMs became cost-effective.

John Wilson
D Bit

######

From: Dave Daniels <a__fake__address@127.0.0.1>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:41:13 +0100
Organization: None
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Message-ID: <49483e2ea1a__fake__address@127.0.0.1>
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In article <7smepu$g3m$2@gxsn.com>,
   Peter Pachla <my.name@wintermute.org.uk> wrote:
> Actually, I was wondering whether a ZX-80 or '81 emulator exists?

Yes, they do. I cannot point you at any in particular but I think
it will not take you long to find one on the Web. There are also
Spectrum emulators for just about everything and I have also seen
QL and Z88 emulators too. All of them come complete with ROM
images as Amstrad kindly gave permission for the ROMs to be used
in this way several years ago.

Dave

-- 
ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My
correct address is:

    dave_daniels<at>argonet<dot>co<dot>uk

Please replace the <at> and <dot>s with @ and . respectively when
replying - Thanks!

######

From: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@wintermute.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  	 Typing Element))
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:42:32 +0100
Organization: WinterMute
Lines: 25
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Hi Bill,

  > (I don't THINK anyone has done a ZX81 clone with a modern
  >FPGA replacing the ASIC, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one,
  >either.)

Actually, I was wondering whether a ZX-80 or '81 emulator exists?

Not that I'd have anything left to run on it - I sold my '80 and '81 some 7
years ago.


  TTFN - Pete.

--
Spam deflector in effect - it's obvious!

"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - J.T.Kirk

Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
--

######

From: slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33    Typing Element))
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:08:58 +0100
Organization: First Sirian Bank
Message-ID: <B415A98A9668353DEC@hearsay.demon.co.uk>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net>   <7s56tp$cmi$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> <37ed7239.760831227@192.168.0.1>   <7sfutm$1gp$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>   <cZMG3.28480$I6.495359@typ12.nn.bcandid.com>   <37EBB1CA.F30684FA@egg.chips.and.spam.com>   <37ED9D43.3CD03009@sprynet.com> <54btaq43u9.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>
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In article <54btaq43u9.fsf@flipper.cisco.com>,
Bill Westfield <billw@flipper.cisco.com> wrote:

> By the way, the ZX80 has become one of those classic collectables, so a
> little hunting on the web will find you the schematics to recreate one,
> plus (I think) at least the binaries of the ROM.
> 
> (I don't THINK anyone has done a ZX81 clone with a modern FPGA replacing
> the ASIC, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one, either.)

I suppose it would be possible.  It's been somewhat superceded
but a Macintosh-based Spectrum emulator, though.  The emulator
(if you let it) emulates a Spectrum far faster than any Spectrum
actually ran.

Simon.
-- 
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | ... you start off with a typical message,
           No junk email please. | let's say a 2.5MB Word document containing
 ET may've phoned /us/.          | three lines of text and a macro virus ...
 Help play the tape: SETI@home.  |                           -- Peter Gutmann

######

From: slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33   Typing Element))
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:08:23 +0100
Organization: First Sirian Bank
Message-ID: <B41465F79668144516@0.0.0.0>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <cZMG3.28480$I6.495359@typ12.nn.bcandid.com> <37EBB1CA.F30684FA@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <54d7v7kf9x.fsf@iwan-view4.cisco.com> <Of_G3.861$ru1.79096@typ11.nn.bcandid.com>
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In article <Of_G3.861$ru1.79096@typ11.nn.bcandid.com>,
kragen@dnaco.net (Kragen Sitaker) wrote:

> Just the other day, I designed a 4x6 font for the full ASCII char set
> (upper and lower case, plus all the symbols) that is actually readable,
> at least on a low-resolution screen.  (It is quite readable at 640x480
> on my 21" monitor at work; when the monitor is at 1600x1200, though, it
> becomes more difficult.)

Hold on.  Given that font you'd have a monitor-full of 400 x 200
= 80,000 characters.  Average word-length of 5 letters and a space
gives you 13,000 words.  That's a fair bit of text: a paperback
page is only 450 words so it's about 25 sides of paperback.  To
have a display capable of showing that is quite an achievement.

Simon.
-- 
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | ... you start off with a typical message,
           No junk email please. | let's say a 2.5MB Word document containing
 ET may've phoned /us/.          | three lines of text and a macro virus ...
 Help play the tape: SETI@home.  |                           -- Peter Gutmann

######

From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Date: 26 Sep 1999 17:15:32 +0100
Organization: P850 User Group
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John Wilson (wilson@dbit.com) wrote:
[ZX81]

: I remember noticing on mine that there was a 24-pin DIP pattern under the
: two 2114s.  So it looks like they were at least *thinking* of substituting
: a single 6116, or something like that?  That would have gotten it down to
: 4, if they ever actually did it, but I suppose it was a while before those
: handy 8-bit SRAMs became cost-effective.

I believe some machines had a 4118 (1K*8 bit) RAM in that position, in 
place of the 2 2114s. That got it down to 4 chips of course, with the 
standard 1K memory (only). Which was actually used depended on which RAMs 
were cheaper at the time, I think.

I believe you could fit a 6116 in there with minimal, if any, mods. That 
got you a 2K machine.

: John Wilson
: D Bit

-tony

######

From: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@wintermute.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:38:49 +0100
Organization: WinterMute
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Reply-To: "Peter Pachla" <my.name@wintermute.org.uk>
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Hi John,

  > I remember noticing on mine that there was a 24-pin DIP pattern under
  >the two 2114s.  So it looks like they were at least *thinking* of
  >substituting a single 6116, or something like that?

Yes, the ZX-81 board was designed from the off to take either a pair of 2114s
or a single 6116. There is a link somewhere on the board to select between the
two types of RAM (its clearly marked on the schematic).

I actually fitted a 6116 in there when I built my '81....OK, so I fitted the
SOCKET, then ended up building a 1K "RAM pack" on some veroboard with the 2114s
which I used for the 6 months it took me to get a 6116. :-)

  >....but I suppose it was a while before those handy 8-bit SRAMs became
  >cost-effective.

Absolutely. None of my local stockists carried 6116s until late 1982 when the
price became "reasonable"...."reasonable" was still at least twice the cost of
four 2114s though, AFAIR.


  TTFN - Pete.

--
Spam deflector in effect - it's obvious!

"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - J.T.Kirk

Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
--

######

From: albaugh@agames.com (Mike Albaugh)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Date: 27 Sep 1999 18:00:14 GMT
Organization: Atari Games Corporation
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Peter da Silva (peter@abbnm.com) wrote:
: In article <37ED3B57.B4BD96ED@srv.net>, Kevin Handy  <kth@srv.net> wrote:
: > Better not let the MicroSoft croud know about this sort of hack,
: > or you'll start to see WinVGA boards to match the WinModem boards
: > they're pushing now.

: Oh god. There really ARE Things Man Was Not meant To Know.

	Actually, if you talk to the right folks at Microsoft, you find
that they are not all that fond of WinModems, either, as they put pretty
unrealistic demands on what was not designed to be an RTOS in the first
place (Please, no comments on "design", OK :-) The ones pushing WinModems
are Intel, who are finding it difficult, even with M$'s help, to find
justifcations for why _everybody_ NEEDS a 1-GHz McKinley :-)

	BTW: Having done some things "pretty darn close" to "All
software Video", I'd opine that using such a beast would not be
significantly more difficult (to someone with no prior experience
in either) than getting "deliberate pixels" on a VGA. "Legacy",
the the PC world, must be pronounced in a LoveCraftian way, as
in: "Your Grandfather, who was buried alive because the townsfolks
believed him to be a servant of the elder guards, left you this
trunk, and an interesting story, as his legacy" (Cue organ chord
and "Bwhoooohahaha" :-)

						Mike

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element))
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <7sfutm$1gp$2@info.cs.uofs.edu> <04zsN3mx5ovre3qV1YQjqjIdl52C@4ax.com> <37ED3B57.B4BD96ED@srv.net>
Organization: Chez Inwap
From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith)
Date: 28 Sep 1999 06:21:10 GMT
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In article <37ED3B57.B4BD96ED@srv.net>, Kevin Handy  <kth@srv.net> wrote:
>Brian Inglis wrote:
>Better not let the MicroSoft croud know about this sort of hack,
>or you'll start to see WinVGA boards to match the WinModem boards
>they're pushing now.

Microsoft already knows about it: Intel was pushing to "native digital
signal processing" into the CPU and ROM but Microsoft nixed the idea.
	-Joe
--
INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock.
  (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.)
See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets"

######

From: john@polo.demon.co.uk (John Winters)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Distributed processinig (was Re: Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33  Typing Element))
Date: 29 Sep 1999 20:34:16 +0100
Organization: The Linux Emporium
Message-ID: <7stpjo$9m8$1@polo.demon.co.uk>
References: <p98mccabe-2608990201150001@mepa2pp15.alltel.net> <slrn7ugbfu.u4.dowe@162.san-francisco-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <37e8e979_1@news.wizvax.net> <37ed6b61.1369936@news.demon.co.uk>
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In article <37ed6b61.1369936@news.demon.co.uk>,
Form@C <mick@mixtel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 22 Sep 1999 10:36:41 -0400, wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) wrote:
>
><snip?
>>The computer was utter crap, but I *am* grateful that mine happened to come
>                                 ^^^^^^^  pardon?
>The ZX81 was very clever. It used the Z80 to update the screen (which is why you
>get the flash in fast mode). It is probably the only micro based machine in
>which the micro actually does something really important all the time!
>

There was an Australian machine called (IIRC) a Microbee which used the
Z80 for practically everything.  If you used it to access Viatel
(Australian videotex) each page appeared in three stages.  The first
stage was incredibly slow because the Z80 was also servicing the serial
line (I don't think it even had a DART) so hadn't time to update the
screen memory.  Once the whole page had arrived down the line the
rate of writing to the screen increased, but the whole display was
flickery (CPU couldn't update the screen and handle display at the
same time) and then once the whole screen had been drawn it became
steady.

John
-- 
John Winters.  Wallingford, Oxon, England.

The Linux Emporium - a source for Linux CDs in the UK
See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/