From: damborn@newsguy.com (Dan Amborn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Altair 8800 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:42:16 GMT Organization: Imagination Interactive, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: damborn@newsguy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-156.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 I think I got a good deal the other day on two Altair 8800 computers. I was surprised to find that a guy was selling them in my company's want ads. I more or less was after getting a look at an Altair 8800 since I had never seen one other than in the PBS show "Triumph of the Nerds". I saw them and they were dusty and had some tape on them but overall were in good shape. The guy said that he hadn't tried to run them in about 8 years since he left college which is where he got them. So I then had him plug them in to see if I would see smoke billowing from them. They didn't and instead both came to life. On one of them all the lights would stay on while the other you could actually see changes in the lights by flicking the switches. I told him I would take one for the asking price of $50 but was unsure which one to take. He gave me a long stare and said to take them both. He said he was tired of moving them around all these years and that I could make one out of the two. =20 When I got home I looked on the net for things about this computer. I was surprised to find that one site said that these computers were worth around $1200. I guess one thing I am wondering is what these computers are actually worth? Is it true that they are worth this much and that I got a really good deal? =20 I am also interested in any sites or newsgroups catering to this computer. If anyone knows of one please let me know. =20 I would also like to verify at least one of my machines are working properly and play around programming it. This computer is history and I treasure that. I would like to know more about running it so I can experience it further. I may have gotten a good deal but that was not my intention. I just wanted to see the computer for myself that gave Microsoft a boost to what it is today. The value is just icing on the cake. =20 -- Dan Amborn damborn@newsguy.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair 8800 Date: 11 Jul 1999 18:39:48 -0700 Organization: None Lines: 51 Message-ID: <7mbh14$5up@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-807.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp2.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn In article <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com>, damborn@newsguy.com says... > > >I think I got a good deal the other day on two Altair 8800 computers. [snip] >..I told >him I would take one for the asking price of $50 but was unsure which >one to take. He gave me a long stare and said to take them both. He >said he was tired of moving them around all these years and that I >could make one out of the two. > >When I got home I looked on the net for things about this computer. I >was surprised to find that one site said that these computers were >worth around $1200. Yeah, I think I know the site. There was a San Francisco auction house selling the alleged Apple I serial# 1. They had an Altair listed on that page, estimated to fetch $1200 at the same auction. Then an Apple engineer put up some Mac prototypes and the "1 millionth mac" and expected $50k. I read some news coverage on Wired that the auction was a bomb, the mac's didn't sell and the Apple I sold for only $18k. They didn't say how the Altair did at auction. >I guess one thing I am wondering is what these >computers are actually worth? Is it true that they are worth this >much and that I got a really good deal? I'd be pretty damn happy to spend $50 on two functioning Altairs. But did you get any other stuff (peripherals, docs) with it? Its hard to say if anyone would pay $1200 for an item like this. >I am also interested in any sites or newsgroups catering to this >computer. If anyone knows of one please let me know. This looks like a good place. There's also a retrocomputing listserv to discuss this old stuff. I've had some fruitful online and offline discussions on getting my old SOL-20 back up and running with members of this newsgroup. BTW, our Altair and Sol machines share some software, I've seen one web page showing one Altair running software sold by Processor Technology, the same software I bought with my Sol. >I would also like to verify at least one of my machines are working >properly and play around programming it. This computer is history and >I treasure that. I would like to know more about running it so I can >experience it further. I may have gotten a good deal but that was not >my intention. I just wanted to see the computer for myself that gave >Microsoft a boost to what it is today. The value is just icing on the >cake. Umm.. I'm not quite sure I'd go so far as to say this was the computer that "boosted" Microsoft. That movie was not entirely accurate. ###### From: "Richard A. Cini, Jr." References: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Altair 8800 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:48:42 -0400 Lines: 96 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.46.180.32!cpmsnbbsa04!cpmsnbbsa02 Dan: Here's my $0.02. Having watched several eBay auctions offering this equipment, I've seen numbers that are staggering. But is this what an Altair is worth?? This is a question I ask myself frequently as I hold myself back from bidding. There is so much hype surrounding the Altairs and the IMSAIs, fueled by TV shows like "...Nerds", books, newspaper articles, that I don't believe that the above prices are truly reflective of the machine's intrinsic worth. Old/vintage computers are just the fad of the moment. It's like Beanie Babies -- they're still only a little bean-filled pieces of cloth which cost less than $1 to make but sell for rediculous amounts. I know that "worth" is defined as what one will pay for an item, but really! The Altair, although the first "personal" computer, is a slow, hard-to-program, hard-to-use, and user-unfriendly computer (by today's standards). It's a machine built by hobbyists for hobbiests. I firmly believe that people get these units for a song and think that they can send their kids to college on the profit from an eBay sale. However, I would doubt that many of them actually know how to program one. Or maintain one, for that matter. The original Altairs are finicky from a power and a buss signal standpoint. And unless the machine came with software, good luck finding software of any use. Some parts are becoming tough to find, and repairing one takes patience. Some are probably willing to spend the $$$ just to day that they have an "Altair", which may impress some because of the public's increased awareness through the media and the relative rarity of the units. There's just too much disposable income floating around... Having said my peace, there are couple sites that you can check. First, try: http://www.altaircomputers.org then my own site, below. Although sadly I don't have an an Altair, I have accumulated a bunch of manuals and documents for the 8800 and 8800b units from a kind sole in California who made scans of his docs for me. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Amborn Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 6:42 PM Subject: Altair 8800 I think I got a good deal the other day on two Altair 8800 computers. I was surprised to find that a guy was selling them in my company's want ads. I more or less was after getting a look at an Altair 8800 since I had never seen one other than in the PBS show "Triumph of the Nerds". I saw them and they were dusty and had some tape on them but overall were in good shape. The guy said that he hadn't tried to run them in about 8 years since he left college which is where he got them. So I then had him plug them in to see if I would see smoke billowing from them. They didn't and instead both came to life. On one of them all the lights would stay on while the other you could actually see changes in the lights by flicking the switches. I told him I would take one for the asking price of $50 but was unsure which one to take. He gave me a long stare and said to take them both. He said he was tired of moving them around all these years and that I could make one out of the two. When I got home I looked on the net for things about this computer. I was surprised to find that one site said that these computers were worth around $1200. I guess one thing I am wondering is what these computers are actually worth? Is it true that they are worth this much and that I got a really good deal? I am also interested in any sites or newsgroups catering to this computer. If anyone knows of one please let me know. I would also like to verify at least one of my machines are working properly and play around programming it. This computer is history and I treasure that. I would like to know more about running it so I can experience it further. I may have gotten a good deal but that was not my intention. I just wanted to see the computer for myself that gave Microsoft a boost to what it is today. The value is just icing on the cake. Dan Amborn damborn@newsguy.com ==================================================== All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand ==================================================== ###### From: damborn@newsguy.com (Dan Amborn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair 8800 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 04:11:08 GMT Organization: Imagination Interactive, Inc. Lines: 76 Message-ID: <378db3e3.14171264@enews.newsguy.com> References: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> <7mbh14$5up@edrn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: damborn@newsguy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-569.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!nntp2.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 On 11 Jul 1999 18:39:48 -0700, Charles Eicher wrote: >I'd be pretty damn happy to spend $50 on two functioning Altairs. But = did you >get any other stuff (peripherals, docs) with it? Its hard to say if = anyone would >pay $1200 for an item like this. No I didn't just the Altairs which included the box and the cord nothing else :-) The way I understand it this was all you got in the early models anyway. They both have two S100 mainboards in them with, If I remember correctly, 4 slots each. They both came with what looks like a memory card, parallel card and the 8080 processor card. They looked like they had a few more things in them when they were used at the college but those boards are gone. One of them looked like it had a card for an audio tape recorder for storage because I have the audio in and out still mounted in the case.=20 Can I add a monitor and keyboard to these computers? Or was that only available in the model 8800b or 680? If so what did you do with the switches once you had a keyboard in place? While I don't have the docs for this computer I found a guy that is willing to send my a copy of his, all 200+ pages. Once I get these the fun begins. >>I am also interested in any sites or newsgroups catering to this >>computer. If anyone knows of one please let me know. > >This looks like a good place. There's also a retrocomputing listserv to = discuss >this old stuff. I've had some fruitful online and offline discussions on= getting >my old SOL-20 back up and running with members of this newsgroup. BTW, = our >Altair and Sol machines share some software, I've seen one web page = showing one >Altair running software sold by Processor Technology, the same software = I bought >with my Sol. > I am relatively new to this era of computers. I started with a Commodore Vic20 which was later replaced by a C64. However I am willing to learn. I find computer history very interesting and like to experience it whenever possible which is the reason for the Altairs. How did Imsai or Processor Technology fit into the picture? Did they clone the Altair or did they license the technology? =20 I figured I would ask about newsgroups since I am new to this group and just started reading the postings. I was wondering if there was a group that was dedicated to Mits or the Altairs but they is probably asking too much. =20 >Umm.. I'm not quite sure I'd go so far as to say this was the computer = that >"boosted" Microsoft. That movie was not entirely accurate. I am starting to spread this posting too thin but what really happened in your opinion? I thought Microsoft got its start from the Popular Electronics article with the Altair 8800 computer on the cover? Without it Bill Gates would have finished college and never started Microsoft. I didn't like the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" at all but I regard "Triumph of the Nerds" as fairly accurate. It comes close to what I have read in books. Since it has the actual people who were there talking it brings with it a sense of credibility. -- Dan Amborn damborn@newsguy.com "A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams." --John Barrymore ###### From: damborn@newsguy.com (Dan Amborn) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair 8800 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 05:03:40 GMT Organization: Imagination Interactive, Inc. Lines: 68 Message-ID: <3790c8a0.19481076@enews.newsguy.com> References: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: damborn@newsguy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-736.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!nntp2.lotsanews.com.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:48:42 -0400, "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: snip > I firmly believe that people get these units for a song and think = that >they can send their kids to college on the profit from an eBay sale. >However, I would doubt that many of them actually know how to program = one. >Or maintain one, for that matter. The original Altairs are finicky from = a >power and a buss signal standpoint. And unless the machine came with >software, good luck finding software of any use. Some parts are becoming >tough to find, and repairing one takes patience. > Its not the software but the experience. My first real computer was a Commodore 64. I never bought any software for it that I couldn't type in from a magazine or program myself. Now those were the days. As far as finding parts or expertise the net is a wonderful place these days if you know where to look. > Some are probably willing to spend the $$$ just to day that they = have an >"Altair", which may impress some because of the public's increased = awareness >through the media and the relative rarity of the units. There's just too >much disposable income floating around... > I know what you mean. Two years ago I didn't know what an Altair was either. As far as the dollar value of these computers it didn't even occur to me or I would have tried buying both of them on the spot. Instead I got the second one given to me as part of the deal as an after thought by the seller. Its only after bringing them home and searching the net did I realize their potential value. I find it somewhat reassuring to look to my left and see these relatively shinny (for their age, I spent a lot of time cleaning these up) computers sitting there. However if I would have had to pay those high prices I would have passed them by. =20 > Having said my peace, there are couple sites that you can check. = First, >try: > > http://www.altaircomputers.org then my own site, below. Although = sadly >I don't have an an Altair, I have accumulated a bunch of manuals and >documents for the 8800 and 8800b units from a kind sole in California = who >made scans of his docs for me. I found someone as well and am in the process of getting the docs for these machines copied. Thanks for the links. I will check them out tomorrow. I think its getting late :-) Oh before I go. What is the difference between the 8800 and the 8800b other than the front panel? I figured I would ask since you have the docs.=20 -- Dan Amborn damborn@newsguy.com "A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams." --John Barrymore ###### Message-ID: <378B65B0.55A6@pdi.com> From: Shawn Neely Reply-To: shawn@pdi.com Organization: somewhat disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair 8800 References: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> <7mbh14$5up@edrn.newsguy.com> <378db3e3.14171264@enews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:13:32 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.214.212.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net 931885513 207.214.212.12 (Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:05:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:05:13 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Nice find! I have some Altair parts acquired from various sources and have been trying to put together a system for a while. > Can I add a monitor and keyboard to these computers? You bet. You can either look for an S-100 video card (typically having a 16-row by 64-column display) and use a B&W TV monitor, or use an RS-232 serial interface and a separate terminal. Some of the video cards also had inputs for a parallel-interface keyboard, otherwise you'll want a parallel I/O card for your keyboard if you're not using a combination terminal. Probably the easiest way to get started would be to find an S-100 serial interface board and use a terminal emulation program on a modern computer. > Or was that only available in the model 8800b or 680? The 680 was a different beast, a smaller box with a Motorola 6800 processor. There were three versions of the 8800 (with Intel 8080 inside): the original 8800 which you have, the 8800a (which featured a couple more auxiliary switches, more card slots, and later introduced more comfortable flat-handled switches), and the 8800b (which used flashier front-panel graphics and a better power supply). > If so what did you do with the switches once you had a keyboard > in place? That depends what else was in your system. For some, you could use the switches to toggle in the address of a bootstrap program in a ROM chip on a board inside, loading BASIC or a monitor program from cassette tape (basically recorded using audio modem technology) or teletype-style punched paper tape. If you were rich you might have been able to afford an 8" floppyor 5 1/4" minifloppy drive and booted up CP/M. (Check out the newsgroup comp.os.cpm if you're interested.) Usually by the time you got to a monitor program with keyboard and display, the switches weren't used very much. That's why they quickly disappeared from later computers. (The lights, on the other hand, give you a reassuring status of the system, and you can sometimes see if the computer is running properly by the rhythm of the address lights.) The IMSAI was one of the earliest "clones", adopting the 8800 bus. In fact, the S-100 bus (which has 100 pins on the connector) was called the "Altair bus" for several years. The IMSAI featured much better construction and power supply, and is a more reliable machine for running a larger system such as CP/M. Other early computers which also used the Altair bus included the Polymorphics "Poly 88" (originally called the "MicroAltair" until they were likely legally required to avoid that trademark) and the Processor Technology SOL. The Poly 88 was a small box with only a power and reset switch, and relied upon a video interface and keyboard. The SOL featured a built-in keyboard and hardwood side panels. (You've got to love a machine that has wood somewhere.) For the most part, S-100 boards and 8080-based software could be run on any of these systems, although different configurations might require you to relocate programs to another part of memory to avoid conflict with the monitor program, video memory, etc. There's still several fun things you can do using just the Altair front panel with no additional peripherals. There was an old program that used loops of different lengths to cause the bus to cycle at different frequencies, inducing harmonic radio interference which could be picked up on a nearby AM radio, making crude music! (This was before the FCC required computers to provide a certain amount of RF shielding.) I might be able to dig up a copy of this somewhere... good luck! Shawn Neely Sunnyvale, CA ###### From: "Richard A. Cini, Jr." References: <378b1450.15161243@enews.newsguy.com> <3790c8a0.19481076@enews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Altair 8800 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:10:15 -0400 Lines: 130 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.46.180.32!cpmsnbbsa04!cpmsnbbsa03 Dan: IIRC, the difference is in the power supply (beefier) and in the backplane (more slots, terminated to reduce signal reflections). The switches are different and the front panel graphics are snazzier. The one you "want" is the 8800b, but the "historical" one is the 8800. The IMSAI 8080, the first "clone" was a smarter looking machine and corrected some of the inherent deficiencies in the Altair design. IMHO, the switches on the IMSAI are much better. >>Its not the software but the experience. My first real computer was a >>Commodore 64. I never bought any software for it that I couldn't type >>in from a magazine or program myself. Now those were the days. As >>far as finding parts or expertise the net is a wonderful place these >>days if you know where to look. Ain't this the truth. My first computer that I owned was the VIC-20. I hung out in Radio Shack, so I used the Model 1 (which I have), and we used PETs and Apples in school (both of which I have). There was nothing like making some hacked-together hardware item and writing the software for it. Most of the software that I have was typed out of Compute! magazine. I have very few purchased programs. That's what made the Commodores/Tandys/Apples great. You're very fortunate to have a friend who "gave" you a wonderful piece of history. You can add a conventional video monitor to the Altair, but you'll need a video card. I have one, and the docs are on my Web site, but I think that there is a bad memory chip or character generator on it since I get corrupted video characters on the screen. Output is composite video. The "keyboard" functionality is provided by an attached serial terminal. I'd say that "Triumph..." is closer to the truth, and jives with some of the other Bill Gates books (I've read most of them. MS was the subject of my Masters thesis). Several factors came together at once: BillG's and Paul Allen's entrepreneurship and intelligence. The vision that this new thing would change the world. BillG's prior business experience (with the Traf-O-Data business). Computing expericence with the PDP-10 TOPS timeshare system while at Lakeside HS. The price point of the computer and it being in the hobbyiest press contributed greatly. Intel's own growth by offering computing functionality (from the old 4004 calculator chips) in small, reasonably-priced packages (although the 8080 was priced over $200 at the time, IIRC). There are probably some underlying generational or societal factors, but that's too deep for me. If the Altair didn't come out at the time, it could have very well been another system. The Mark-8 appeared in P-E only a few months before. Good luck with the Altairs, and if I can be of further help, let me know. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator Dan Amborn wrote in message news:3790c8a0.19481076@enews.newsguy.com... On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:48:42 -0400, "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: snip > I firmly believe that people get these units for a song and think that >they can send their kids to college on the profit from an eBay sale. >However, I would doubt that many of them actually know how to program one. >Or maintain one, for that matter. The original Altairs are finicky from a >power and a buss signal standpoint. And unless the machine came with >software, good luck finding software of any use. Some parts are becoming >tough to find, and repairing one takes patience. > Its not the software but the experience. My first real computer was a Commodore 64. I never bought any software for it that I couldn't type in from a magazine or program myself. Now those were the days. As far as finding parts or expertise the net is a wonderful place these days if you know where to look. > Some are probably willing to spend the $$$ just to day that they have an >"Altair", which may impress some because of the public's increased awareness >through the media and the relative rarity of the units. There's just too >much disposable income floating around... > I know what you mean. Two years ago I didn't know what an Altair was either. As far as the dollar value of these computers it didn't even occur to me or I would have tried buying both of them on the spot. Instead I got the second one given to me as part of the deal as an after thought by the seller. Its only after bringing them home and searching the net did I realize their potential value. I find it somewhat reassuring to look to my left and see these relatively shinny (for their age, I spent a lot of time cleaning these up) computers sitting there. However if I would have had to pay those high prices I would have passed them by. > Having said my peace, there are couple sites that you can check. First, >try: > > http://www.altaircomputers.org then my own site, below. Although sadly >I don't have an an Altair, I have accumulated a bunch of manuals and >documents for the 8800 and 8800b units from a kind sole in California who >made scans of his docs for me. I found someone as well and am in the process of getting the docs for these machines copied. Thanks for the links. I will check them out tomorrow. I think its getting late :-) Oh before I go. What is the difference between the 8800 and the 8800b other than the front panel? I figured I would ask since you have the docs. -- Dan Amborn damborn@newsguy.com "A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams." --John Barrymore