Message-ID: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> From: Mark Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:57:02 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.26.60.2 X-Complaints-To: news@teleport.com X-Trace: news1.teleport.com 930329860 216.26.60.2 (Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:57:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:57:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!WCG!korova.insync.net!nntp.teleport.com!news1.teleport.com!not-for-mail OK, I'll admit up front that this is basically a homework question, but I'll don my asbestos underwear and ask anyway. My computer science prof told us that BNF originally stood for Backus-Naur Form but then was changed to Backus Normal Form. For extra credit, he said, find out why Naur got dropped. After looking up BNF in FOLDOC, however, it appears that BNF originally stood for Backus Normal and then, at Donald Knuth's suggestion, was changed to Backus-Naur. According to this version, then, Naur got added, not dropped. So does anyone know why Knuth thought Naur should get credit? I see references to a 1959 paper by Backus, followed by a 1960 paper by Naur. Did Naur come up with a metasyntax similar to but independently of Backus', or did Naur make additions to one already developed by Backus, or both or neither or what? Thanks in advance for scanning your memory banks on this one. Mark ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:46:26 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 35 Message-ID: <37738831.2169013E@plano.net> References: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.55 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:41:42 GMT X-Trace: 930336102.486.70 NI6GKZCYD2937D12CC qube-01.us-ca.remarq.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!corp.remarQ.com!not-for-mail Mark Price wrote: > > OK, I'll admit up front that this is basically a homework question, but > I'll don my asbestos underwear and ask anyway. > > My computer science prof told us that BNF originally stood for > Backus-Naur Form but then was changed to Backus Normal Form. For extra > credit, he said, find out why Naur got dropped. After looking up BNF in > FOLDOC, however, it appears that BNF originally stood for Backus Normal > and then, at Donald Knuth's suggestion, was changed to Backus-Naur. > According to this version, then, Naur got added, not dropped. > > So does anyone know why Knuth thought Naur should get credit? I see > references to a 1959 paper by Backus, followed by a 1960 paper by Naur. > Did Naur come up with a metasyntax similar to but independently of > Backus', or did Naur make additions to one already developed by Backus, > or both or neither or what? > Well, since I do *not* know the answer to your question, let me tell you what I (think) that I do know. BNF was one of the first systems for formally describing the syntax of a programming language. And Algol 60 was the first computer language to be formally described by BNF. And Peter Naur was the chairman of the Algol 60 committee that designed the language. Mr. Nauer also edited the Algol 60 report. So perhaps this is why Knuth thought that Naur's name should be attached to BNF. Now for extra credit, why was the Algol 60 Report dedicated to the memory of William Turanski? (I got the answer to this from a.f.c before, but I bet your professor does *not* know the answer.) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Date: 25 Jun 1999 19:51:31 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7l0mk3$gtq$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From article <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com>, by Mark Price : > > So does anyone know why Knuth thought Naur should get credit? I see > references to a 1959 paper by Backus, followed by a 1960 paper by Naur. John Backus was the inventor of FORTRAN, and he was a member of the IFIP working committee that developed ALGOL. Peter Naur edited the Algol 60 Report. The Algol 60 report used BNF to describe the syntax of that elegant little language, and the details of the notation were largely developed by Peter Naur, with many details determined by, for example, Naur's European background (where angle braces are used as quote marks, from whence we get the notation) or by, for example, the limited character set of his typewriter, which forced him into ::= where his manuscript had an arrow or somesuch mark. People on the committee started calling it Naur's notation, but Naur said no, this was a notation he got from Backus, so at Naur's suggestion, people started calling it Backus Normal Form. However, as Knuth pointed out, Naur had quite a bit to do with this form, and furthermore, it's not really a normal form, since there are an infinite number of different ways to construct a BNF grammar for any given context free language. So, we get BNF standing for Backus-Naur Form. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu (who's first 3 high-level programming languages were CAL, FORTRAN II and Algol 60) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Date: 26 Jun 1999 00:02:47 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 72 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u4sjwx7js.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Mark Price writes: > > My computer science prof told us that BNF originally stood for > Backus-Naur Form but then was changed to Backus Normal Form. For extra > credit, he said, find out why Naur got dropped. After looking up BNF in > FOLDOC, however, it appears that BNF originally stood for Backus Normal > and then, at Donald Knuth's suggestion, was changed to Backus-Naur. > According to this version, then, Naur got added, not dropped. Well you have beaten your CS prof. From "A History of Programming Languages", Richard L Wexelblat (Ed), Conference proceeding of same named conference, ACM Press Paper: "European Side of Last Phase of Development of Algol", Peter Naur ------ Page 99: ... I was led to the conviction that the formulisatin of a clear and complete description was more important than any particular language. Only on October 1959, during a second phase of studying Backus's Paris report, did I penetrate through the formal, syntactic description. This made me realize that his notation would be a highly valuable tool ... Page 131: On the subject of BNF (which to me has allways meant Backus Normal Form, since John Backus quite allone introduced it in his Paris '59 paper) ... Page 162: (Q&A session) 2. The Meaning of the Acronym BNF Chetham: The next question ... "BNF is sometimes pronounced Backus-Naur-Form and sometimes Backus-Normal-Form. What was the original intention?" Naur: I do not know where BNF came from in the first place. [It was not used during the ALGOL 60 conference in Paris in January 1060.] I don't know - surely BNF originally meant BAckus-Normal-Form. I don't know who suggested it. Perhaps Ingermen. [This is denied by Peter Z. Ingerman (1978).] I don't know. Chetham: ... Naur: Then the suggestion to change that I think was made by Don Knuth in a letter to the Communications of the ACM, and the justification - well, he has the justification there. I think I made reference to it [Knuth (1964) in references to Naur's paper], so there ypu'll finf whatever justification was originally made. That's all I would like to say. Page 139: (References) Knuth, D. E. (1964). Backus Normal Form vs Backus Naur Form. Comm. ACM 7(12): 735-736. ------ > So does anyone know why Knuth thought Naur should get credit? I see So it seems you need Knuths CACM paper. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Wizzard and Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Computer: toy that speeds work, so you have more time to play with it ###### From: Janne Rinta-Manty Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Date: 28 Jun 1999 00:41:29 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> <6u4sjwx7js.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: pursimies.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.070088 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.88) Emacs/20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Neil Franklin 1999-06-25T22:02:47Z: NF> Naur: I do not know where BNF came from in the first place. [It NF> was not used during the ALGOL 60 conference in Paris in January NF> 1060.] I don't know - surely BNF originally meant NF> BAckus-Normal-Form. I don't know who suggested it. Perhaps NF> Ingermen. [This is denied by Peter Z. Ingerman (1978).] I don't NF> know. Peter Z. Ingerman suggested "Panini-Backus Form" in CACM 10, 3 (1967), 137 - Panini had used similar notation for the grammar of Sanskrit. "Not only does it give due credit, but it also avoids the misuse of the word ``Normal.''" Apparently the suggestion didn't have much influence. -- Janne Rinta-Mänty ###### Message-ID: <3777FE8E.373A@teleportcutthisout.com> From: Mark Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal References: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> <6u4sjwx7js.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:00:30 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.26.4.162 X-Complaints-To: news@teleport.com X-Trace: news1.teleport.com 930610869 216.26.4.162 (Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:01:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:01:09 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp.teleport.com!news1.teleport.com!not-for-mail Thanks very kindly everyone for all the helpful replies. I will try to look up Panini's Sanskrit grammar and why the Algol 60 Report is dedicated to the memory of William Turanski, or at least toss them out with a knowing air in class and make my classmates feel dumb for not knowing about them either. :) Mark ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:21:02 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 21 Message-ID: <37782D8E.EBB4899E@stoneweb.com> References: <3773B4DE.2045@teleportcutthisout.com> <6u4sjwx7js.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3777FE8E.373A@teleportcutthisout.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 78PBrk2C/Bz+5FOZhVl499XNg42Kh4FUVPMv8SKaTVM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 1999 02:21:04 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Mark Price wrote: > > I will try to look up Panini's Sanskrit grammar and why the Algol 60 > Report is dedicated to the memory of William Turanski [...] If I recall correctly, the Algol '60 report is dedicated to Mr. Turanski as he was instrumental in getting the language specified and subsequently lost his life in an automobile accident in the weeks before the report was published. I have a copy of the report upstairs, but to get it at the moment would be difficult (it'd wake the wife). If anybody's interested, I'll look it up and post the text of the memorial. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: dbryant@netcom.com (David K. Bryant) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Backus-Naur vs. Backus-Normal Date: 1 Jul 1999 20:35:55 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7lgjfb$l5t@dfw-ixnews19.ix.netcom.com> References: <3773DE.2045@teleport.com> <37738831.2169013E@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: netcom11.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jul 01 3:35:55 PM CDT 1999 NNTP-Posting-User: dbryant X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!dbryant Charles Richmond writes: >Now for extra credit, why was the Algol 60 Report dedicated to the memory >of William Turanski? And for double-coupons, who is Frank Borland and what is his claim to fame? No, he doesn't appear with Tim Allen on "Tool Time".