From: Artemis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,sci.sckeptic,alt.sci.amateur,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Followup-To: alt.folklore.urban,sci.sckeptic,alt.sci.amateur,alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 18:21:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <3754EE92.BF932E3E@hh.hosp.dk><37581bd8.1756438895@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.104.25.34 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jun 05 18:21:47 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; AK; Windows 95) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x30.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 198.104.25.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hub1.ispnews.com!cyc12.deja.bcandid.com!nntp1.deja.com!nnrp2.deja.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , "Steve Wood" wrote: > I remember reading an article on the resonant frequencies of certain > ZX81 internal components. The article included theories about how > to broadcast modulated AM tones using these resonances. > > I got my ZX81 to play a flatulent, dirge-like version of "Daisy" over > a nearby AM radio. I remember being pretty impressed at the time. It would have been a better trick if you could have made the 16K memory pack work worth a darn. Uncle Clive liked to boast he could do for a nickel waht any fool could do for a dollar. I think he use a nickel plated connector (sheesh!) Still, there was a lot you could eke out of the ZX81 (aka Timex 1000). I heard that foreign governments of the eastern block were buying them up like popcorn. But given the poor performance of the memory pack I can see why the company went under. Too bad. Artemis > > -- > Steve "But then I got an Apple IIc and everything changed" Wood > http://members.home.net/scwood > Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici > > David Perrin wrote in message > news:G4SqSAALwqV3Ewvo@reggie.demon.co.uk... > > >One of the most impressive hacks I ever saw was chess on a 1k ZX81 - > > >no castling, only two openings and not a strong player, but never mind > > >the quality, feel the narrowth. > > > > After playing with my ZX81 for a bit I managed to write a 10x10 life > > program in 47 bytes.... although you were limited to a setups using a > > random seed generator. Gosh, the winter evenings just flew by in the > > early 1980's...... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 5 Jun 1999 23:33:19 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 40 Message-ID: <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: estelle.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 928625599 3371031 203.96.152.5 (5 Jun 1999 23:33:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 1999 23:33:19 GMT Cache-Post-Path: estelle.paradise.net.nz!unknown@p16-cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don >In article , >> I got my ZX81 to play a flatulent, dirge-like version of "Daisy" over >> a nearby AM radio. I remember being pretty impressed at the time. BTDT. I found that tweaking the FAST/SLOW modem fast enough (read: from machine code) could make it play tones in rather the same way as one made sounds by toggling the speaker on an apple ][. 'course it sounded pretty awful and had the distinct disadvantage of losing the video display, but it played a sufficiently recognisable tune to astonish friends. Artemis wrote: >It would have been a better trick if you could have made the >16K memory pack work worth a darn. Uncle Clive liked to I found that if you went over the rampack's connector with a flat blade screwdriver, bending the edge connector "pins" to have more grip, the rampack would stay put. You had to leave the thing there -- if you took the pack off, you needed to fix the cheaparse connector again. >a dollar. I think he use a nickel plated connector (sheesh!) Not that I recall. Just copper. >them up like popcorn. But given the poor performance of the >memory pack I can see why the company went under. Too bad. The attitude that cheaper was better did kill the company. But the ZX81 and Speccy were resounding successes, despite the cheapness. It wasn't until the QL that things started to go wrong, but it was the with C5 electric car where wheels finally came off (the company, not the car). Clive sold everything to Alan Sugar (Amstrad), including the right to use the name Sinclair. Hence the (mildly successful) Z88 coming out under the name Cambridge Computer. Where is Uncle Clive now? -- don ###### From: bkoons2489@aol.com (BKoons2489) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,sci.sckeptic,alt.sci.amateur,alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 6 Jun 1999 00:57:56 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Message-ID: <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I once wired a new keyboard on a "broken" Timex sinclair and it work fine there after! What really made this little guy so unreliable was the power supply. If I ever get motivated to use it again I`ll wire in a new more stable supply source. ACME ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 6 Jun 1999 03:36:05 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Message-ID: <7jcqb5$61b$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.135.16 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 928640165 6187 212.1.135.16 (6 Jun 1999 03:36:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jun 1999 03:36:05 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-05 don@news.daedalus.co.nz(DonStokes) said: :I found that if you went over the rampack's connector with a flat :blade screwdriver, bending the edge connector "pins" to have more :grip, the rampack would stay put. You had to leave the thing there :-- if you took the pack off, you needed to fix the cheaparse :connector again. I had a Memotech rampack for my ZX81. Not only was its case made of sheet aluminium rather than the usual moulded plastic, but it was the same width as the ZX81 (and sculpted to fit neatly onto its back, and not much higher) and came with a couple of bits of extremely sticky Velcro to attach the thing in place. The Velcro was necessary, too. Memotech brought out their own computer, eventually. It was a very neat looking affair, and wouldn't have looked out of place as the keyboard of a nice big CP/M box. Evidently Memotech agreed, as they sold as an add-on a huge box called the FDX, as wide as the MTX512, with space for two disk drives and an 80 column card; that turned the MTX into a CP/M box. I desperately wanted one. (In fact I still want one - anyone got one lying around?) :Where is Uncle Clive now? Apparently he's suddenly woken up to Linux, and wants to make a RISC-based portable (maybe Z88-scale?) using it. So that'll be along in about 2 years, then... -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 05:10:23 GMT Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 928645822 32680 194.154.98.206 (6 Jun 1999 05:10:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jun 1999 05:10:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert In article <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com>, bkoons2489@aol.com (BKoons2489) wrote: > I once wired a new keyboard on a "broken" Timex sinclair and it work fine >there after! What really made this little guy so unreliable was the power >supply. If I ever get motivated to use it again I`ll wire in a new more stable >supply source. >ACME I came across (mid 80s ??) a thing remarkably similar to the zx81/timex called a 'jupiter' (IIRC) which ran Forth as an OS. It fitted into the same size/shape box, and was apparently put together by an ex-Sinclair employee. There was a time when you could buy the PCBs and cases with no chips on, bt not the circuit diagram. Not having access to the original ASIC chip he'd redesigned the whole thing, with a much nicer video interface using a minium of chips (why use a multiplexer when a resistor pack will do...) and I'm not even sure that he still used a Z80. I think it might have been a 6502 or 6800. This was such a nice little box that I (ahem) reverse engineered it and grew a few of my own with bigger memory to use as various system controllers. -- barnacle http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk ###### From: rwaltman@bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Message-ID: <37629f37.7896584@news5.bellatlantic.net> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 16:18:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.198.124.135 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 928685915 151.198.124.135 (Sun, 06 Jun 1999 12:18:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 12:18:35 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.ispnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail >I came across (mid 80s ??) a thing remarkably similar to the zx81/timex called >a 'jupiter' (IIRC) which ran Forth as an OS. >... and I'm not even sure that he >still used a Z80. I think it might have been a 6502 or 6800. It was a "JupiterAce" and it did use a Z80. You can find the schematics, ROM dumps and an emulator for it at the following URL's: http://www.home-micros.freeserve.co.uk/JupiterAce/JupiterAce.html http://users.aol.com/autismuk/ace/index.htm RW. ###### From: alexios@hestia.dai.ed.ac.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 6 Jun 1999 17:14:36 GMT Organization: Edinburgh University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: hestia.dai.ed.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: scotsman.ed.ac.uk 928689276 24518 129.215.153.167 (6 Jun 1999 17:14:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@scotsman.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jun 1999 17:14:36 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail In article <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Phil Guerney" writes: > If anyone in the UK (or elsewhere!) can sell me a Jupiter Ace I would be > thrilled. It was one of the micro's I had my heart set on when I started to > collect these things, but the Ace has proved elusive in Australia. It's equally elusive in the UK, unfortunately. I've been looking for one for the past four years, but to no avail. It's such a cute little micro, very anti-Sinclair in its white case. Alexios -- o88 o888o o888o -------------------------------------------------------------- 88o8' `88' `88 Alexios Chouchoulas alexios@dai.ed.ac.uk 88' ,88' ,88' (aka The Unpronounceable One) University of Edinburgh o8888888888888888 "Eimai mia micri soupiera" Artificial Intelligence ###### From: "Phil Guerney" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:04:31 +1000 Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-9-236.dialin.uq.net.au X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail barnacle wrote in message news:7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net... >I'm not even sure that he > still used a Z80. I think it might have been a 6502 or 6800. No - it was a 3.25MHz Z-80A. If anyone in the UK (or elsewhere!) can sell me a Jupiter Ace I would be thrilled. It was one of the micro's I had my heart set on when I started to collect these things, but the Ace has proved elusive in Australia. Postage should not be too great - it sure was not heavy! Just slightly hoping for a reply. Phil in Brisbane, Australia. ###### From: Barbara N Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,sci.sckeptic,alt.sci.amateur,alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 05:04:31 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <375b4dae.2016056@news.newsguy.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <3754EE92.BF932E3E@hh.hosp.dk><37581bd8.1756438895@192.168.0.1> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: barbarajn@eudoramail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-985.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 18:21:47 GMT, Artemis wrote: >It would have been a better trick if you could have made the >16K memory pack work worth a darn. Uncle Clive liked to >boast he could do for a nickel waht any fool could do for >a dollar. I think he use a nickel plated connector (sheesh!) > The 64K memory pack (bought as a kit and had someone build it for me) worked ok, as long as it didn't come loose. Then transferred the operating system to upper memory and could actually write a decent program. Sort of. Barbara N. Reply to needhams@cvconline.com ###### From: eslamtilt@mwahahahaha.com (Alan Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Organization: Hardly. Reply-To: eslamtilt@mwahahahaha.com Message-ID: <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 39 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:48:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.229.225.128 X-Trace: client.news.psi.net 928770528 38.229.225.128 (Mon, 07 Jun 1999 11:48:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 11:48:48 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com.MISMATCH!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nr.dist.news.psi.net!client.news.psi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail The white case discolours after a few years! I still have mine, bought it when it came out. 3Kb RAM originally, but I got a 16KB add on pack when they were going out of business and flogging off as much as they could. Sorry, I'm not selling. I have a long term plan to see if I can make my PC talk to the thing. Mind you, maybe I should check and see if it's still working... In reference to Communa's earlier post, I too had the Memotech rampack and also lusted after the 'puter they brought out ... anodized aluminium case, mmmmmm ... I think they stopped making it by the time I had some cash together and I had to settle for a C64. Good thing I didn't get an Oric;-) -- The letter 'e' doesn't really occur in my e-mail address. A. On 6 Jun 1999 17:14:36 GMT, alexios@hestia.dai.ed.ac.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) wrote: >In article <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, > "Phil Guerney" writes: > >> If anyone in the UK (or elsewhere!) can sell me a Jupiter Ace I would be >> thrilled. It was one of the micro's I had my heart set on when I started to >> collect these things, but the Ace has proved elusive in Australia. > > It's equally elusive in the UK, unfortunately. I've been looking for >one for the past four years, but to no avail. It's such a cute little >micro, very anti-Sinclair in its white case. > >Alexios > >-- >o88 o888o o888o -------------------------------------------------------------- > 88o8' `88' `88 Alexios Chouchoulas alexios@dai.ed.ac.uk > 88' ,88' ,88' (aka The Unpronounceable One) University of Edinburgh >o8888888888888888 "Eimai mia micri soupiera" Artificial Intelligence ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 7 Jun 1999 17:45:54 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928778474 nnrp-06:27874 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 1999 17:45:54 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net>, eslamtilt@mwahahahaha.com (Alan Thompson) writes: > I had some cash together and I had to settle for a C64. Good thing I > didn't get an Oric;-) I always had the impression that the Orics (in particular the later models; the Atmos?) were supposed to be Quite Good tm, but, in common with many of the other companies that sprung up at the time to vend their new and exciting hardware, they didn't have a clue about how to run a business successfully. It's somehow sad reading all these posts about the micros of the '80s, and I can only add my name to the long list of people who say that things aren't as interesting as they used to be hardware-wise; there was an incredible diversity of totally incompatible systems, many inventive in their own way and with their strengths and weaknesses and inevitably their own band of diehard supporters. Anybody have a complete(ish) list of what was on the market between, say, '80 and '84? I have vague recollections of several machines that are never talked about anymore, such as the Lynx (nice graphics, shame about the speed), the Elan/Enterprise/ whatever it was called in any particular week (by the time they'd got the name together enough to release the bloody thing just about everyone'd lost interest, and ISTR it was *far* too ambitious a project for the then already aged Z80-whatever CPU), various Commodore things like the Plus-4 which looked interesting on paper but were again a bit too late; er, suddenly I realise I can't remember half as many micros as I thought I could... Chris. ###### From: "Adam Atkinson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 07 Jun 99 20:34:51 +0000 Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo Message-ID: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk><375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d5-s27-59-telehouse.mistral.co.uk X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 928784431 1738 195.184.228.59 (7 Jun 1999 19:40:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@starburst.uk.insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 1999 19:40:31 GMT X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Newsreader: THOR 2.6 (Amiga;TCP/IP) Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!insnet.net!not-for-mail On 07-Jun-99 17:45:54, Chris Hedley said: >Anybody have a complete(ish) list of what was on the >market between, say, '80 and '84? No. But I haven't seen anyone mention the UK101 or the Nascom 2 in this thread yet. (I had a Dragon 32 at the time, though what I really _wanted_ was obviously a BBC Model B.) A little earlier than this, people I knew mostly had Apple II, Commodore PET, TRS 80, and Acorn System 1. -- Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk) You mean, you'll put down your rock, I'll put down my sword, and we'll try to kill each other like civilized people? ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 7 Jun 1999 21:14:31 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jhcnn$2ro$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928792931 nnrp-07:17442 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 1999 21:14:31 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk>, "Adam Atkinson" writes: > No. But I haven't seen anyone mention the UK101 or the Nascom 2 in > this thread yet. (I had a Dragon 32 at the time, though what I really > _wanted_ was obviously a BBC Model B.) The UK101 and Nascom 2 were slightly before my time; they always brought images to mind of guys in lab-coats wielding soldering irons and oscilloscopes... I also had a Dragon 32 at the time (I should really get around to rescuing it from my parents' loft) and could never really make up my mind about the BBC; being a natural born cynic, I wondered if it really lived up to its hugely overhyped reputation, and when I finally got an Electron decided it probably didn't, but it was still a groundbreaking machine of its time. > A little earlier than this, people I knew mostly had Apple II, > Commodore PET, TRS 80, and Acorn System 1. The only one of those I've actually encountered was the PET. I quite liked it, in spite of its discs not seeming to offer any performance gain over a cassette unit! Weighed a bloody ton as well, as I recall. Chris. ###### From: roggblake@iname.com () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 7 Jun 1999 21:16:23 GMT Lines: 34 Message-ID: <7jhcr7$mai$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: ErQy5020BMJ+naf+zaUoDekgz/7FWHrXK9ODmtO+rb4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 1999 21:16:23 GMT X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (Windows) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!roggblake On 7 Jun 1999 17:45:54 GMT, Chris Hedley wrote: >supporters. Anybody have a complete(ish) list of what was on the >market between, say, '80 and '84? I have vague recollections of I still have an early home computer called the "Interact" which was an 8080-based system sold in the late '70s/early '80s. Actually the company that originally built it went belly up and an outfit calling themselves "Protecto Enterprizes" bought them out and sold the units through crude-looking ads in the back of Popular Science magazine. Protecto also sold the "APF Imagination Machine" (another early failed micro) and later took on the Commodore line and PC clones. I have no idea if Protecto is still around in some form. For a while there was a fairly active Interact community, and a number of hardware and software hacks were available for it. The Interact hooks up to a TV set, has 16K RAM, low res color graphics, crude sound capability, a horrid chicklet keyboard, and built-in 1500 bps cassette tape drive. Text display is upper-case only, no cursor, 11 lines of 17 characters. (No character generator, text is software generated through the bit-mapped graphics display.) It came with a version of Microsoft Basic on cassette tape that is copyrighted 1977. I used to use this system to access Compuserve via a 300-baud acoustic coupler back around '81 or '82. I remember friends and relatives thinking it was real Buck Rogers stuff. Also have a dual-floppy LNW-80 system which is a TRS-80 compatible. There was a lot of bizarre stuff around, most of which I've forgotten about. One that sticks in my mind is the Exidy Sorcerer which used gutted 8-track tape cartridges to house its plug-in ROM packs. -- Roger Blake (remove second "g" from address for email) ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 7 Jun 1999 22:49:08 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7jheol$1oo@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928794817 nnrp-12:13950 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 83 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Chris Hedley (cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk) wrote: : In article <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net>, : eslamtilt@mwahahahaha.com (Alan Thompson) writes: : > I had some cash together and I had to settle for a C64. Good thing I : > didn't get an Oric;-) : I always had the impression that the Orics (in particular the later : models; the Atmos?) were supposed to be Quite Good tm, but, in common AFAIK (and the pair of machine I have confirm this), the Oric 1 and Atmos were electrically the same. The keyboard was different (the Atmos had one you could actually type on ;-)), and there may have been differences (bug fixes?) in the ROM. It was almost a 6502-based spectrum. The main chips (from memory) were : 6502 CPU AY-3-8910 (?) sound chip + some I/O ports ULA (video, system control, etc) ROM either 16K or 64K RAM (4416 or 41464 DRAMs). IIRC only 48K of the latter was useable The display was a strange serial-attribute thing IIRC. _The_ machine to look for was the Tiger (well, it would have been if they'd sold many of them). It was also a Tangerine design, but it was somewhat over-specced : Z80(B, I think) + 64K RAM 68B09 + 8K RAM NEC 7220 Graphics copro + 96K video RAM (3 32K bitplanes) Prestel modem Centronics, RS232, Econet-like network, cassette Full keyboard All in a case about the size of a Beeb... Oh well. Never hear of them now... : with many of the other companies that sprung up at the time to vend : their new and exciting hardware, they didn't have a clue about how to : run a business successfully. It's somehow sad reading all these posts : about the micros of the '80s, and I can only add my name to the long : list of people who say that things aren't as interesting as they used : to be hardware-wise; there was an incredible diversity of totally Fortunately there are some eccentrics around the world who are preserving/ restoring these old machines... : incompatible systems, many inventive in their own way and with their : strengths and weaknesses and inevitably their own band of diehard : supporters. Anybody have a complete(ish) list of what was on the : market between, say, '80 and '84? I have vague recollections of : several machines that are never talked about anymore, such as the : Lynx (nice graphics, shame about the speed), the Elan/Enterprise/ : whatever it was called in any particular week (by the time they'd got : the name together enough to release the bloody thing just about : everyone'd lost interest, and ISTR it was *far* too ambitious a : project for the then already aged Z80-whatever CPU), various Commodore : things like the Plus-4 which looked interesting on paper but were : again a bit too late; er, suddenly I realise I can't remember half : as many micros as I thought I could... Don't forget the Tandy CoCo3 (not common in the UK). It's a sort-of Dragon with up to 512K RAM, 2MHz 68B09, 80 column text display, 640*192*4 colour graphics, etc. Runs OS-9, and can just about support a couple of users. Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a macintosh-like desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC micro-like 1MHz bus for expansion. No I am not joking. Or the Gemini Galaxy, which was based on the NASCOM bus. It supported a hard disk, and could be a network server. Most of them had 2 Z80s inside, one for user programs (it ran CP/M) and one on the (text-only) video card. You're making me feel old... : Chris. -tony ###### From: Pete Fenelon Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:41:49 +0100 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-057.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 928822676 10480 news@194.247.41.71 Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail Chris Hedley wrote: > I always had the impression that the Orics (in particular the later > models; the Atmos?) were supposed to be Quite Good tm, but, in common > with many of the other companies that sprung up at the time to vend > their new and exciting hardware, they didn't have a clue about how to > run a business successfully. The firmware was bugged to hell in the Oric-1 and the calculator-style keyboard was bloody awful - worse than some of the rubber monstrosities about. The serial-attribute system made graphics even more idiosyncratic than the Spectrum, and the software was... hmmm... well, there weren't many true classics. The Atmos was a fair bit cuter - most of the more gruesome bugs had been ironed out and the keyboard was tolerable. Tangerine paid the price of coming into the market a bit too late with a product that wasn't quite good enough. Sure, when the home micro boom was on it was possible to make a good living selling the sixth or seventh most popular platform, but when the home micro market shook out in the UK (Spectrum, 64, niche market for the BBC and Amstrad) there was no room for "weird" machines. Economies of scale reduce diversity in "mature" markets... It's a pity, because Tangerine used to build lovely machines in the elder days -- the Microtan 65 could build up into one of the more impressive 6502-based hobbyist/kit systems... I expected far more from their "home micro"... pete -- pete@fenelon.com `there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas' HMHB ###### From: Pete Fenelon Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jheol$1oo@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:49:30 +0100 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-057.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 928822678 10480 news@194.247.41.71 Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > _The_ machine to look for was the Tiger (well, it would have been if they'd > sold many of them). It was also a Tangerine design, but it was somewhat > over-specced : > Z80(B, I think) + 64K RAM > 68B09 + 8K RAM > NEC 7220 Graphics copro + 96K video RAM (3 32K bitplanes) > Prestel modem > Centronics, RS232, Econet-like network, cassette > Full keyboard Haven't seen one of them for years -- they used to be not uncommon in travel agents' (probably cheaper than getting a CP/M crate and a Prestel terminal?) Loved the multi-coloured function keys. They were certainly classier than the tacky mono Z80 CP/M boxes people tended to have in business at the time! > Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a macintosh-like > desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC micro-like 1MHz bus for > expansion. No I am not joking. Lovely machine. I can't remember what the third X was for (X11, X.25 and something else...). For a while a TripleX was the X.25 gateway for my then-employers... > Or the Gemini Galaxy, which was based on the NASCOM bus. It supported a hard > disk, and could be a network server. Most of them had 2 Z80s inside, one > for user programs (it ran CP/M) and one on the (text-only) video card. I acquired one of these a few months back. Real nostalgia trip... had a fun weekend playing with WordStar and doing some assembly-language hacking :) Alas, it was taking up far too much space so I swapped it (and a TRS-80 model III) for a SCSI box... pete -- pete@fenelon.com `there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas' HMHB ###### From: "Adam Atkinson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 08 Jun 99 06:52:00 +0000 Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1324.828T11T4122220ghira@mistral.co.uk> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk><375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net><7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk><636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jhcnn$2ro$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d3-s1-161-telehouse.mistral.co.uk X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 928821010 18232 195.184.228.161 (8 Jun 1999 05:50:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@starburst.uk.insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 05:50:10 GMT X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Newsreader: THOR 2.6 (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!insnet.net!not-for-mail On 07-Jun-99 21:14:31, Chris Hedley said: >could never really >make up my mind about the BBC; being a natural born cynic, I wondered if >it really lived up to its hugely overhyped reputation, and when I finally >got an Electron decided it probably didn't The Electron's not really the same as a BBC B. I had access to plenty of BBC Bs, and I promise you they were nicer than Dragon 32s. Though 6809 machine code was nicer than 6502. (I obviously had to use machine code on the Acorn System 1 since, well, what else was I going to do with it?) >> A little earlier than this, people I knew mostly had Apple II, >> Commodore PET, TRS 80, and Acorn System 1. >The only one of those I've actually encountered was the PET. I quite liked >it, in spite of its discs not seeming to offer any performance gain over >a cassette unit! Weighed a bloody ton as well, as I recall. Indeed it did. I don't think the 4k "chiclet keyboard" PET had disks. I remember a cassette player being part of the keyboard, or something. I suppose it was an improvement on TTYs with paper tape, which we used at school at the time. I wonder if I still have "Cells and Serpents" on paper tape somewhere? -- Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk) Viva la pappa col pomodoro! (G. Stoppani) ###### From: Simon Craythorn Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:07:14 +0100 Organization: InterVations Ltd Lines: 9 Message-ID: <375D0772.AF2FB0E0@intervations.co.uk> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk><375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.188.105.220 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 928856201 25978 195.188.105.220 (8 Jun 1999 15:36:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 15:36:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-fra.maz.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!intervations.co.uk!not-for-mail > No. But I haven't seen anyone mention the UK101 or the Nascom 2 in > this thread yet. (I had a Dragon 32 at the time, though what I really > _wanted_ was obviously a BBC Model B.) I had a Nascom 2 for a while around '82 ish. Still have a Nascom 1 in the loft somewhere I think. Simon. ###### From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7jj74p$iqe$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> Reply-To: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:43:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.194.64.238 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 00:43:20 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newspeer1.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news0.optus.net.au!not-for-mail eslamtilt@mwahahahaha.com (Alan Thompson) writes: >In reference to Communa's earlier post, I too had the Memotech rampack >and also lusted after the 'puter they brought out ... anodized >aluminium case, mmmmmm ... I think they stopped making it by the time >I had some cash together and I had to settle for a C64. And it was such a lovely machine --- a built in assembler and machine code debugger in ROM. Solid as a rock, too. I had a few short circuits on that thing without anything breaking. And once we forgot the power supply for our 16 processor Z80 system when going to an show, and so the poor MTX-512 had to support it as well as itself. It couldn't quite handle 16 processors, but I think we got 12 going. Each processor had an LED connected to it, and if too many of those were on, the MTX lost its video output, but when the LED's switched off, everything was back to normal. I loved that machine. I still have 1.5 of them in storage (well, my original was dumped on the ground by an IBM employee, and as it had been wire-wrap-extended to use a HD64180, static memory, several serial ports and a shared memory interface to the 16 processor system, it didn't like that. So IBM's insurance paid for me to get a used one from someone else --- this was at the time when they were already very hard to get). Anyone remember "NODDY"? Bernie -- ============================================================================ "It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy... ...let's go exploring" Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995 ###### From: Tobias Goeller Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:57:03 +0200 Organization: COM.BOX Winet Lines: 17 Message-ID: <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: combox.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.7 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.bln.de!not-for-mail Don Stokes wrote: > I found that if you went over the rampack's connector with a flat blade > screwdriver, bending the edge connector "pins" to have more grip, the > rampack would stay put. You had to leave the thing there -- if you took > the pack off, you needed to fix the cheaparse connector again. I fixed the "crash because of loose rampack"-problem with some two-component-glue. It still lasts :-)) CU Tobias -- COM.BOX WINET \|/ Tobias Goeller ({o.o}) \./ t.goeller@combox.de U ###### From: chriss@uk.uu.net (Chris Stratford) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 15:25:47 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7jjclr$naf$1@wave.cam.uk.internal> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jhcnn$2ro$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <1324.828T11T4122220ghira@mistral.co.uk> Reply-To: Chris.Stratford@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Host: anduin.cam.uk.internal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.icl.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!grot.news.pipex.net!pipex!wave.news.pipex.net!wave.puck.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail In article <1324.828T11T4122220ghira@mistral.co.uk>, "Adam Atkinson" writes: > The Electron's not really the same as a BBC B. I had access to plenty > of BBC Bs, and I promise you they were nicer than Dragon 32s. They were also twice the price (399 for a BBC Model B, 199 for a Dragon 32), so they should be a lot nicer. Chris. -- Chris Stratford Email: Chris.Stratford@uk.uu.net UK Postmaster Voice: +44(0)1223 250690 UUNET Fax: +44(0)1223 250650 An MCI WorldCom Company WWW: http://www.uk.uu.net ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:32:46 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928857740 nnrp-13:9243 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de>, Tobias Goeller writes: > Don Stokes wrote: > >> I found that if you went over the rampack's connector with a flat blade >> screwdriver, bending the edge connector "pins" to have more grip, the >> rampack would stay put. You had to leave the thing there -- if you took >> the pack off, you needed to fix the cheaparse connector again. > > I fixed the "crash because of loose rampack"-problem with some > two-component-glue. It still lasts :-)) I saw adverts in some ancient copies of _Your Computer_ for little strips of ribbon cable with the appropriate plugs at each end, designed so you could put your rampack on the table and connect it to the machine with the cable. These were known as `dongle danglers'. BTW, anyone remember the Aquarius, a machine I saw reviewed in said magazine? They thought quite highly of the Lynx, too. And the TI99 (which had 256 bytes of CPU addressable memory)... -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | I think, therefore you are. | Play: dgiven@iname.com | +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk (C Lamb) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:04:14 GMT Organization: Sheffield University, UK Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7jjiee$mlo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> Reply-To: cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: stoat.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!news.shef.ac.uk!stoat!cs1cl David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote: : In article <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de>, : Tobias Goeller writes: : > Don Stokes wrote: : > : >> I found that if you went over the rampack's connector with a flat blade : >> screwdriver, bending the edge connector "pins" to have more grip, the : >> rampack would stay put. You had to leave the thing there -- if you took : >> the pack off, you needed to fix the cheaparse connector again. : > : > I fixed the "crash because of loose rampack"-problem with some : > two-component-glue. It still lasts :-)) : I saw adverts in some ancient copies of _Your Computer_ for little strips : of ribbon cable with the appropriate plugs at each end, designed so you : could put your rampack on the table and connect it to the machine with the : cable. These were known as `dongle danglers'. I think most people used the much more mundane solution of a sausage of Blu-Tak between rampack and ZX-81 on the upper edge. This only had one disadvantage - after 6 hours of playing Donkey Kong (remember the little inverse video X that was you?) the Blu-Tak turned into something resembling used chewing gum in a sauna. regards C ###### From: "Adam Atkinson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 08 Jun 99 17:42:08 +0000 Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo Lines: 16 Message-ID: <603.828T409T10622806ghira@mistral.co.uk> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk><375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net><7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk><636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk><7jhcnn$2ro$1@teabag.demon.co.uk><1324.828T11T4122220ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jjclr$naf$1@wave.cam.uk.internal> NNTP-Posting-Host: d3-s4-164-telehouse.mistral.co.uk X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 928862856 16593 195.184.228.164 (8 Jun 1999 17:27:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@starburst.uk.insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:27:36 GMT X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Newsreader: THOR 2.6 (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!insnet.net!not-for-mail On 08-Jun-99 15:25:47, Chris Stratford said: >> The Electron's not really the same as a BBC B. I had access to plenty >> of BBC Bs, and I promise you they were nicer than Dragon 32s. >They were also twice the price (399 for a BBC Model B, 199 for a >Dragon 32), so they should be a lot nicer. And this is why I had to settle for a Dragon 32 even though I really wanted a BBC B :-) -- Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk) I have a spelling chequer. It came with my pea sea. It plane lee marques for my revue miss steaks eye can knot sea. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:05:50 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jjihe$2og$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jhcnn$2ro$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <1324.828T11T4122220ghira@mistral.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928864740 nnrp-12:11149 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:05:50 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <1324.828T11T4122220ghira@mistral.co.uk>, "Adam Atkinson" writes: > The Electron's not really the same as a BBC B. I had access to plenty > of BBC Bs, and I promise you they were nicer than Dragon 32s. Though > 6809 machine code was nicer than 6502. (I obviously had to use machine > code on the Acorn System 1 since, well, what else was I going to do > with it?) I'd agree that the BBC was definitely the better machine in practically all respects. Its downfall was its price, and, in spite of its advantages, it was massively overhyped; I think that this was most evident by sales of the model A, which was so crippled (even moreso than the Electron IMHO) that it just wouldn't have sold at that price if it wasn't for the name. When it came to "hands-on" stuff, after any novelty value had passed its course, I probably made equally productive use of both systems. > Indeed it did. I don't think the 4k "chiclet keyboard" PET had disks. > I remember a cassette player being part of the keyboard, or something. > I suppose it was an improvement on TTYs with paper tape, which we used > at school at the time. I wonder if I still have "Cells and Serpents" > on paper tape somewhere? Perversely, I actually preferred the likes of the VT100; needless to say, my career has consisted largely of doing server rather than client related tasks. :) Chris. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:15:49 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jheol$1oo@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928864741 nnrp-12:11149 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:15:49 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <7jheol$1oo@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > AFAIK (and the pair of machine I have confirm this), the Oric 1 and Atmos > were electrically the same. The keyboard was different (the Atmos had one > you could actually type on ;-)), and there may have been differences (bug > fixes?) in the ROM. The Atmos certainly looked more impressive, if nothing else. :) > either 16K or 64K RAM (4416 or 41464 DRAMs). IIRC only 48K of the latter > was useable With RAM at the huge premium it was in those days, I'm surprised that there was 16K of redundant memory in it, unless it was used to shadow the ROM to speed things up (I don't doubt you, though) > _The_ machine to look for was the Tiger (well, it would have been if they'd > sold many of them). It was also a Tangerine design, but it was somewhat > over-specced : I don't think I've even heard of that one, and I thought I pretty much had my finger on the pulse in those days... oh well! Sounds a nice machine, shame it never really made the "big time." > Fortunately there are some eccentrics around the world who are preserving/ > restoring these old machines... This month's PCW reports that Clive Sinclair is thinking about dusting off his soldering iron and reentering the microcomputer market; he has ideas about a custom-made ARM-based machine for Linux. It certainly has potential. > Don't forget the Tandy CoCo3 (not common in the UK). It's a sort-of > Dragon with up to 512K RAM, 2MHz 68B09, 80 column text display, 640*192*4 > colour graphics, etc. Runs OS-9, and can just about support a couple of > users. I only have vague memories of this one. Sounds like a really neat machine. > Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a macintosh-like > desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC micro-like 1MHz bus for > expansion. No I am not joking. Wasn't that the one that actually used the BBC/B motherboard for all the I/O stuff, and was in essence a BBC with the 68000 Unix "tower" attached to the 1MHz bus all in one case (complete with monitor, floppies and stuff)? I wish I still had some of my old mags from those days. Perhaps PCW will cover it again one day in their "retro" section. > Or the Gemini Galaxy, which was based on the NASCOM bus. It supported a hard > disk, and could be a network server. Most of them had 2 Z80s inside, one > for user programs (it ran CP/M) and one on the (text-only) video card. All this talk of the Nascom is starting to make me feel embarrassed. Time to read up about it, even if I am 20 years late. :) > You're making me feel old... I'm making *me* feel old... Chris. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:23:43 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928864742 nnrp-12:11149 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 17:23:43 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article , dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) writes: > BTW, anyone remember the Aquarius, a machine I saw reviewed in said > magazine? I have vague memories of it; ISTR it was regarded pretty much as a "games console" of the time, but I stand to be corrected. > They thought quite highly of the Lynx, too. And the TI99 (which > had 256 bytes of CPU addressable memory)... I only encountered a Lynx once, but quite liked it. Very nice graphics, as I recall. As for the TI99, didn't that hold the rather dubious accolade of being one of the slowest machines ever, in spite of its then almost unprecedented 16-bit CPU? The weird memory model might explain this if it's true... Chris. ###### From: "Rob Nicholson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:42:45 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7jjpqv$fr3$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19990605205756.24872.00000986@ng-da1.aol.com> <7jcvru$vt8$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jdqq9$hoc$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <7jea9s$nu6$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-102.lutetium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 928869023 16227 62.136.35.102 (8 Jun 1999 19:10:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 19:10:23 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail > I always had the impression that the Orics (in particular the later > models; the Atmos?) were supposed to be Quite Good tm, but, in common They were okay - I had lots of fun with them. The teletext/attribute based hires screen was a pain. > their new and exciting hardware, they didn't have a clue about how to > run a business successfully. It's somehow sad reading all these posts Backed by British Car Auctions I believe... > supporters. Anybody have a complete(ish) list of what was on the > market between, say, '80 and '84? I have vague recollections of There's loads of web sites on old computers. > several machines that are never talked about anymore, such as the > Lynx (nice graphics, shame about the speed), the Elan/Enterprise/ > whatever it was called in any particular week (by the time they'd got > the name together enough to release the bloody thing just about > everyone'd lost interest, and ISTR it was *far* too ambitious a The Flan was doomed from the start. Great idea, poor marketing and followup. Rob. ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 21:00:29 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7jk09d$mmr$3@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <375be471.341053549@client.ne.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.153.170 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 928875629 23259 212.1.153.170 (8 Jun 1999 21:00:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 21:00:29 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-07 eslamtilt@mwahahahaha.com said: :In reference to Communa's earlier post, I too had the Memotech :rampack and also lusted after the 'puter they brought out ... :anodized aluminium case, mmmmmm ... I think they stopped making it :by the time I had some cash together and I had to settle for a C64. :Good thing I didn't get an Oric;-) tee hee :> I know people who swear by Orics. For some reason they were very popular in France, and I believe a successor to the Atmos found its way to market over there. I got my Memotech long after I believed that the company had ceased to exist, from a little place in Swindon that appeared to sell bankrupt stock. I also got my first PC (an XT that is still alive today, bar the serial port) from there, on the strength of it. -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 21:00:30 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.153.170 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 928875630 23259 212.1.153.170 (8 Jun 1999 21:00:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 21:00:30 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-07 ghira@mistral.co.uk said: :On 07-Jun-99 17:45:54, Chris Hedley said: :>Anybody have a complete(ish) list of what was on the :>market between, say, '80 and '84? :No. But I haven't seen anyone mention the UK101 or the Nascom 2 in :this thread yet. (I had a Dragon 32 at the time, though what I :really _wanted_ was obviously a BBC Model B.) I'll see you a UK101 (I saw a schematic of that, but no more) and raise you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky graphics and rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 (did anyone ever have one of these? 1802-based, with "the slowest version of Basic ever encountered", according to one site). :A little earlier than this, people I knew mostly had Apple II, :Commodore PET, TRS 80, and Acorn System 1. What was the first British computer to really make it big? I get the impression that the BBC is very much Britain's Apple II, but other than that... I'm only thinking of UK sales here. -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: Pete Fenelon Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:31:37 +0100 Message-ID: <9k5kj7.dv.ln@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: man-150.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 928909052 25918 news@194.247.40.191 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail In alt.folklore.computers Chris Hedley wrote: > I only encountered a Lynx once, but quite liked it. Very nice > graphics, as I recall. As for the TI99, didn't that hold the rather > dubious accolade of being one of the slowest machines ever, in spite > of its then almost unprecedented 16-bit CPU? The weird memory model > might explain this if it's true... 's'right -- the BASIC was also, if I recall rightly, double-interpreted! (yep, the interpreter was itself interpreted!). The weird memory architecture of the TI reminds me rather of the Siemens (Infineon these days I guess) C16x family of microcontrollers... pete -- pete@fenelon.com `there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas' HMHB ###### From: pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 8 Jun 1999 23:37:08 +0100 Organization: dragon cluster Message-ID: <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> Reply-To: pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: watchdragon.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: watchdragon.demon.co.uk:158.152.121.201 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928920611 nnrp-01:8175 NO-IDENT watchdragon.demon.co.uk:158.152.121.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!watchdragon.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail wrote: >On 1999-06-07 ghira@mistral.co.uk said: > :No. But I haven't seen anyone mention the UK101 or the Nascom 2 in > :this thread yet. (I had a Dragon 32 at the time, though what I > :really _wanted_ was obviously a BBC Model B.) > >I'll see you a UK101 (I saw a schematic of that, but no more) and raise >you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky graphics and >rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 How about a CGL M5? http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/hardware/hallath/ Not very nice, not very common, but the Guttang Guttong puzzle/arcade game is fun :-> Somebody's mentioned the TI99/4a already, which was my first computer. I learnt to program on that primarily because virtually the only source of games for it was BASIC listings you typed in yourself... [and I learnt to curse the choice of FCN-= as a reset key. Reach for shift-= (+) in the middle of a line of BASIC and find yourself staring at the testcard 'press any key to begin' screen and cursing :-> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/hardware/tapeth/ You could actually expand the TI into quite a powerful machine. I used to drool over descriptions in the user group magazines of systems with the peripheral expansion box, twin disk drives, 32K of RAM and the ability to do machine code, RS232 and more. It's just a shame the basic machine was so crippled. Peter Maydell ###### From: "Rob Nicholson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:15:26 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Message-ID: <7jk8eg$hj8$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-8.benadryl.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 928883984 18024 62.136.54.136 (8 Jun 1999 23:19:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 23:19:44 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail > you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky graphics and > rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 (did anyone ever have one > of these? 1802-based, with "the slowest version of Basic ever > encountered", according to one site). Goodness - you mean they actually made the Comx!! I remember seeing it at a show in London. Wasn't it advertised as "using the chip used in the space shuttle"? Rob ###### From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 01:32:01 -0400 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 24 Message-ID: <090619990132017716%scottm25@bigfoot.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: M0VrIo33NAdphjKFjawoq+u3U/R7RopdmTvROGu4keE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 1999 05:33:39 GMT X-Face: "_p7hm!(`R/h:x.fFi's;ncuxZ`[YALx6^qjs>UnIu!^{.#Fcv'n3?\]tApx6 T%'@]NRNZ3Yy>|*}>.X_BP0KeiXDhQCx" User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!scottm25 In article <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley wrote: >I only encountered a Lynx once, but quite liked it. Very nice >graphics, as I recall. > I still have my Lynx. I love the thing! Some of the guys who worked on the Amiga designed it. I always wanted to try developing for it. Thought it might be fun. Just to see how the thing worked even. >As for the TI99, didn't that hold the rather dubious accolade of being >one of the slowest machines ever, in spite of its then almost >unprecedented 16-bit CPU? The weird memory model might explain this >if it's true... > I have a TI in my closet. Well, two of them actually. The memory was accessible throught the video chip or something weird like that. I never understood how it worked. All I know is that you could add this honking big 32k memory expansion unit and not use it for most things. -- -- Scott Maxwell - scottm25 (at) bigfoot (dot) com My shrink? I just go to him for refills! ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 01:57:13 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7jke59$29q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928893981 nnrp-12:26396 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 83 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Chris Hedley (cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk) wrote: : > either 16K or 64K RAM (4416 or 41464 DRAMs). IIRC only 48K of the latter : > was useable : With RAM at the huge premium it was in those days, I'm surprised that : there was 16K of redundant memory in it, unless it was used to shadow the : ROM to speed things up (I don't doubt you, though) I'm almost certain it didn't shadow the ROM (not much point on a 6502 machine...). I remember there being 2 RAM sockets on the mainboard, and that they could take 64K*4 DRAMs. I've never heard of a way to map RAM in place of the ROM, so I think you really were limited to 48K. I must admit that I've not seriously hacked inside an Oric for many years. Maybe I should dig mine out again.. : > Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a macintosh-like : > desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC micro-like 1MHz bus for : > expansion. No I am not joking. : Wasn't that the one that actually used the BBC/B motherboard for all the : I/O stuff, and was in essence a BBC with the 68000 Unix "tower" attached No, you're thinking of the Unicorn (which was a 68000 add-on for the Beeb). There was also the Graduate which was an 8088 (PC compatible-ish) BBC add-on The XXX was a stand-alone workstation. The mainboard (called a Stickleback) had the following main chips on it : 68010 CPU 68451 MMU 68450 DMA controller 1Meg DRAM 5380 SCSI interface Z8530 serial chip (it could do X25 on one of the serial ports I think) (Optional) 7990 + 7992 ethernet 6303 'service processor' (basically low-speed I/O and bootstrap) 16K byte boot ROM (aka 'caretaker' or 'simon') 146818 real time clock 6840 counter/timer 6850 ACIA 6845 CRTC 64K video memory (shared between the 68010 and the 6803) Assorted TTL glue and PALs It had _3_ expansion buses : SCSI, VME (not quite a full VME, but not bad) and the BBC 1MHz bus (called X-bus on this machine). The boot sequence was strange. The service processor halted the 68010 and copied the 8-bit-wide boot ROM into the 32 bit wide video memory. Then the 68100 started running that program and pulled the rest of the system in from (SCSI) disk. The machine's case was built in layers. THe bottom tray contained the PSU and motherboard. On top of that you put one or more (you had to have at least one for the PSU to fit) 'storage layers'. The standard one contained a floppy drive (80 track), a hard disk (ST506 interface, 20 or 40mbytes, I think) and an OMTI 5000 controller to link them to the SCSI bus. On top of that you could put a VME cage if you wanted one. There was a 'slimring' which had one spare slot for a single VME card and a 'quinring' which had 4 slots (I think - one of them was used for the cable going back to the motherboard). If you didn't have the VME system, you could add a cheaper RAM expansion board called a 'Limpet' This plugged into 2 IC sockets on the motherboard and cabled to the VME connector. It gave you another megabyte of RAM. If you had the VME cage, you could put standard VME RAM cards in it. The other strange feature was the power switch. It was a touch contact on the front of the case. Touching it turned on a relay in the PSU (the control circuit was powered from a NiCd battery that also backed up the real time clock) and powered the system up. To turn it off, you touched the contact again. This sent an interrupt to the service processor which then told the main CPU to sync filesystems, etc. The service processor then told the PSU to turn off. Strange. -tony ###### From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Organization: This is innd taking over... Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7jkvtm$no4$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> Reply-To: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 06:32:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.194.64.117 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 16:32:58 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news0.optus.net.au!not-for-mail euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: >I'll see you a UK101 (I saw a schematic of that, but no more) and raise >you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky graphics and >rubber keys, for about 69 quid) The really sad part about the Laser (aka VZ-200) series is that the gfx chip inside could do a whole lot more than they used. IIRC, it could do 256x192 in colours. But they only gave it 2k of memory (at 0x7000, or 28672 --- scary, it's been 15 years or so since I last needed that knowledge...), and didn't connect a few traces, so actually using any of the higher modes wasn't possible. Bernie P.S.: My usual question: ANYONE out there who happens to have a copy of "Wolf3" (run-through-maze-and-shoot-the-guards-but-be-careful-with- those-grenades-they-can-trigger-chain-reactions type of game) lying around? I wrote that a long time ago, and I'd love to play it again, but it seems I have lost all my tapes in one of the many moves since. -- ============================================================================ "It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy... ...let's go exploring" Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995 ###### From: Josef =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6llers?= Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:31:11 +0200 Organization: Changes ever so often Lines: 22 Message-ID: <375E0A2F.D82977BA@pdb.siemens.de> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.103.174.21 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!dortmund.de.uu.net!news.sni.de!not-for-mail Chris Hedley wrote: [ ... ] > graphics, as I recall. As for the TI99, didn't that hold the rather > dubious accolade of being one of the slowest machines ever, in spite > of its then almost unprecedented 16-bit CPU? The weird memory model > might explain this if it's true... "Memory model" might be the wrong term: "CPU architecture" might be better: the 9900 series CPUs had their registers in memory. A base pointer addressed the first register and context switch was simple: just reload the base register ... Later models had some kind of cache, iirc. I still have a manual of these chips buried somewhere. Josef -- = PS Die hier dargestellte Meinung ist die persoenliche Meinung des Autors! PS This article reflects the autor=B4s personal views only! ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 09:00:19 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Message-ID: <7jlaf3$5uq$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.164 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 928918819 6106 212.1.149.164 (9 Jun 1999 09:00:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 1999 09:00:19 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-08 pete@fenelon.com said: :> Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a :>macintosh-like desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC :>micro-like 1MHz bus for expansion. No I am not joking. :Lovely machine. I can't remember what the third X was for (X11, X. :25 and something else...). For a while a TripleX was the X.25 :gateway for my then-employers... uniX? -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:24:30 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928929612 nnrp-12:8145 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk>, pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) writes: [...] > How about a CGL M5? > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/hardware/hallath/ _Your Computer_ reviewed this, but called it a Sord M5. But it's definately the same machine, with the funky corner-missing keys. [...] > You could actually expand the TI into quite a powerful machine. > I used to drool over descriptions in the user group magazines of > systems with the peripheral expansion box, twin disk drives, > 32K of RAM and the ability to do machine code, RS232 and more. > It's just a shame the basic machine was so crippled. When we say RAM, are we talking real (on-chip) RAM or fake (interpreted) RAM? -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "...it's not that well-designed GUI's are | Work: dg@tao-group.com | rare, it's just that the three-armed users | Play: dgiven@iname.com | GUI's are designed for are rare." --- Mike +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ Uhl on a.f.c ###### From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Date: 9 Jun 1999 13:19:47 GMT Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7jlplj$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <090619990132017716%scottm25@bigfoot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.9.200.110 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.lsl.co.uk!benh Scott (scottm25@bigfoot.com) wrote: : In article <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley : wrote: : >I only encountered a Lynx once, but quite liked it. Very nice : >graphics, as I recall. : > : I still have my Lynx. I love the thing! Some of the guys who worked on : the Amiga designed it. I always wanted to try developing for it. : Thought it might be fun. Just to see how the thing worked even. Aren't you thinking of the Atari Lynx game system? -- Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan. ###### From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 13:23:01 GMT Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7jlprl$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jke59$29q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.9.200.110 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.lsl.co.uk!benh Tony Duell (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) wrote: : : > Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a macintosh-like : : > desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC micro-like 1MHz bus for : : > expansion. No I am not joking. : : Wasn't that the one that actually used the BBC/B motherboard for all the : : I/O stuff, and was in essence a BBC with the 68000 Unix "tower" attached : No, you're thinking of the Unicorn (which was a 68000 add-on for the : Beeb). There was also the Graduate which was an 8088 (PC compatible-ish) : BBC add-on I remember using a computer based on the BBC, labelled "Torch" with a couple of disk drives, which AFAICR was running CP/M. I think it had extra memory (64K total?) as well as an extra processor. At the time I knew nothing of operating systems, so I couldn't really be sure what it was running. Is it possible that the 8088 add-on ran CP/M? -- Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 13:43:29 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jlr21$26r$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <090619990132017716%scottm25@bigfoot.com> <7jlplj$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928936588 nnrp-07:13727 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 1999 13:43:29 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <7jlplj$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk>, benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: > Aren't you thinking of the Atari Lynx game system? The one I was thinking of was made by Camputers. It was a sort of Atom- shaped grey thing. Chris. ###### From: Mike Swaim Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> Organization: PointeCom User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.8-RELEASE (i386)) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4wu73.2571$tU2.80932@news2.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:04:48 CDT X-Trace: sv1-yYNpprxQgwxc1TgF9lVd0i4zxrjSaon+KaOeT14zsg/bYOBmZb9pZDXBVjS5hmCZz0Q+seJ7/gCCuGn!A3mf/tZz3pk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 14:04:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news2.giganews.com.POSTED!gemini.c-com.net!swaim David Given wrote: : In article <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk>, : pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) writes: :> You could actually expand the TI into quite a powerful machine. :> I used to drool over descriptions in the user group magazines of :> systems with the peripheral expansion box, twin disk drives, :> 32K of RAM and the ability to do machine code, RS232 and more. :> It's just a shame the basic machine was so crippled. : When we say RAM, are we talking real (on-chip) RAM or fake (interpreted) : RAM? Real. The assembler cartridge came with 4K nonvideo RAM. (And battery backup, too, I believe.) -- Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie. Home: swaim@c-com.net Alum: swaim@alumni.rice.edu Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:12:56 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jke59$29q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7jlprl$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928937535 nnrp-11:9215 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article <7jlprl$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk>, benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: [...] > I remember using a computer based on the BBC, labelled "Torch" with a > couple of disk drives, which AFAICR was running CP/M. I think it had > extra memory (64K total?) as well as an extra processor. At the time > I knew nothing of operating systems, so I couldn't really be sure what > it was running. Is it possible that the 8088 add-on ran CP/M? IIRC, that was a weird coprocessor thing with a Z80 in it. The Acorn Master Plan was that the BBC was never intended to be a stand-alone computer, it was really supposed to be the I/O processor for another computer entirely; hence the Tube high-speed interface. Acorn only got round to producing the 65C02 second processor in quantities. This had 50-odd kilobytes of memory, ran at 4MHz (I think), and was really rather nice. As the second processor didn't have to handle any I/O, it didn't get interrupts very often, and so was good for number-crunching. There were plans for a 68k-based second processor, Z80/8080, something obscure with 80 in the name, and a couple of risc things. Prototypes were made, and are now quite valuable. The Torch was a third-party second processor, designed to run CP/M, that didn't really comply with Acorn's standard. I believe the floppy disk interface was connected to the Z80 rather than the 6502? People kept writing to the Acorn magazines with weird compatibility problems. The disks also had solenoid-driven heads and were INCREDIBLY NOISY. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "...it's not that well-designed GUI's are | Work: dg@tao-group.com | rare, it's just that the three-armed users | Play: dgiven@iname.com | GUI's are designed for are rare." --- Mike +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ Uhl on a.f.c ###### From: lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 15:21:39 GMT Organization: Northern Telecom Lines: 9 Message-ID: <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars05r.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!qcarh002.nortelnetworks.com!bcarh189.ca.nortel.com!bmerhc5e.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!wcars05r.ca.nortel.com!lingman Grin. Thinking back, I seem to recall using a combination of a large rubber band and plasticine to hold the 16K pack on the back of the TS-1000. It was nice having a basic aware keyboard. I wonder how hard it would be to hack something up that would do the same thing for C++... Dan. ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 08 Jun 1999 09:46:10 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7jcqb5$61b$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 928824253 27061 194.90.227.153 (8 Jun 1999 06:44:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1999 06:44:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newshub.northeast.verio.net!netnews.com!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-central.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-xfer.epix.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: > On 1999-06-05 don@news.daedalus.co.nz(DonStokes) said: > > :Where is Uncle Clive now? > > Apparently he's suddenly woken up to Linux, and wants to make a > RISC-based portable (maybe Z88-scale?) using it. So that'll be along in > about 2 years, then... Do we get a power switch this time round? -- Ariel Scolnicov |"GCAAGAATTGAACTGTAG" |ariels@compugen.co.il Compugen Ltd. |Tel: +972-2-6795059 (Jerusalem) \ NEW IMPROVED URL! 72 Pinhas Rosen St. |Tel: +972-3-7658520 (Main office)`-------------------- Tel-Aviv 69512, ISRAEL |Fax: +972-3-7658555 http://3w.compugen.co.il/~ariels ###### From: steve@blighty.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 13:21:05 -0700 Organization: Extra Newsguy News Service [http://extra.newsguy.com] Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7jmibh$12hi@edrn.newsguy.com> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jme8l$3p9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-054.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!edrn In article <7jme8l$3p9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk says... > >In article <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, > euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: >> What was the first British computer to really make it big? I get the >> impression that the BBC is very much Britain's Apple II, but other than >> that... I'm only thinking of UK sales here. I'd have thought the Speccy wins over the Beeb. >Curiously, in spite of the Apple 2's reputation, I've never encountered >anyone who owned one and only saw one "in the flesh" on one occasion. And >that was in a shop display... ISTR the most likely reason was (at risk of >being repetitive) its price; nearly double that of a BBC/B IIRC. Significantly earlier, too. I used an Apple ][ at school (in the UKoGBaNI) well before I got my ZX80... '78? '79? I went through the ZX80 and an Atom before the Beeb arrived, in '82? So there's maybe four years difference between the two. Cheers, Steve -- -- Steve Atkins -- steve@blighty.com ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 9 Jun 99 14:42:34 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 X-To: Danny Lingman Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news Following this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the Radio Shack MC-10, a stripped down low cost version of the COCO and thus sometimes called the POCO. It used a 6803 (a 6801 with its internal rom disabled) instead of the 6809 in the COCO's. I believe it was an attempt to attract the same market as the ZX-81 (ie low cost). Although color, it was a little too little a little too late and didn't last long on the market. I had a lot of fun with mine the year or so I played with it. Anyone else remember it? Chris ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 19:11:17 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7jme8l$3p9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928956975 nnrp-04:5728 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 1999 19:11:17 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: > What was the first British computer to really make it big? I get the > impression that the BBC is very much Britain's Apple II, but other than > that... I'm only thinking of UK sales here. Curiously, in spite of the Apple 2's reputation, I've never encountered anyone who owned one and only saw one "in the flesh" on one occasion. And that was in a shop display... ISTR the most likely reason was (at risk of being repetitive) its price; nearly double that of a BBC/B IIRC. Chris. ###### From: "Adam Atkinson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 09 Jun 99 20:46:17 +0000 Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo Message-ID: <984.829T860T12463757ghira@mistral.co.uk> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk><7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7jme8l$3p9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d5-s4-36-telehouse.mistral.co.uk X-Trace: starburst.uk.insnet.net 928957472 13372 195.184.228.36 (9 Jun 1999 19:44:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@starburst.uk.insnet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 1999 19:44:32 GMT X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Newsreader: THOR 2.6 (Amiga;TCP/IP) Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!insnet.net!not-for-mail On 09-Jun-99 19:11:17, Chris Hedley said: >Curiously, in spite of the Apple 2's reputation, I've never encountered >anyone who owned one and only saw one "in the flesh" on one occasion. And >that was in a shop display... ISTR the most likely reason was (at risk of >being repetitive) its price; nearly double that of a BBC/B IIRC. The Apple II predates the BBC B by quite a bit, though. I knew several people who had (or whose parents had...) Apple II machines in, say, 1979 or 1980. Other people (or their parents) had TRS80s or PETs. By the time I was in a position to buy my own computer (82? 83?), none of these machines were candidates. -- Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk) Ordinary decent people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I am certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am. (M. Python) ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 21:30:16 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7jmiso$s3@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jke59$29q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7jlprl$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928971446 nnrp-10:27932 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Ben Hutchings (benh@lsl.co.uk) wrote: : I remember using a computer based on the BBC, labelled "Torch" with a : couple of disk drives, which AFAICR was running CP/M. I think it had : extra memory (64K total?) as well as an extra processor. At the time : I knew nothing of operating systems, so I couldn't really be sure what : it was running. Is it possible that the 8088 add-on ran CP/M? No, that's yet another Torch machine. It started off life as a little Z-80 card (called IIRC the Communicator) that plugged into an normal Beeb's 1MHz bus. There was a separate box that contained a pair of disk drives and a PSU - you were supposed to run the Beeb of this PSU as well as some versions of the Beeb PSU couldn't handle the extra load of the Z80 card. IIRC the card contained a Z80, 64K or RAM, a couple of interface chips and an EPROM containign a CP/M clone (CPN?). There was also a host ROM that went into one of the sideways ROM sockets on the BBC. Later on, Torch sold all-in-one machines with a BBC motherboard + Z80 card + monitor + drives in one box. Maybe that's what you used. -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 9 Jun 1999 21:35:11 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7jmj5v$sh@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 928971448 nnrp-10:27932 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote: : IIRC, that was a weird coprocessor thing with a Z80 in it. The Acorn : Master Plan was that the BBC was never intended to be a stand-alone : computer, it was really supposed to be the I/O processor for another : computer entirely; hence the Tube high-speed interface. Acorn only got : round to producing the 65C02 second processor in quantities. This had : 50-odd kilobytes of memory, ran at 4MHz (I think), and was really rather : nice. As the second processor didn't have to handle any I/O, it didn't get : interrupts very often, and so was good for number-crunching. The Acorn Z80 second processor is quite common. The other ones (32016 (or 16032) and ARM 1) are much rarer. There was also an 80186 internal coprocessor for the Master IIRC. : The Torch was a third-party second processor, designed to run CP/M, that : didn't really comply with Acorn's standard. I believe the floppy disk Correct. IIRC Tube copros connected to the 1MHz bus not to the Tube. The Z80 and Graduate (8088) both did (I have them). The Z80 one had a Sideways ROM that contained the interface routines for the BBC side. The Graduate used an interesting feature of the BBC MOS that means you can map a ROM on the 1MHz bus (256 _bytes_ at a time) and execute it on reset. IIRC this happens if NMI is asserted on reset. : interface was connected to the Z80 rather than the 6502? People kept No, the Z80 board used the normal BBC disk controller (on the 6502) and drives. The graduate, on the other hand, had an internal 8272 disk controller and 2 40 track drives, just like a PC. In fact it was normal to have drives on both the BBC and the Graduate... -tony ###### From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:26:04 -0400 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <100619990026048756%scottm25@bigfoot.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <090619990132017716%scottm25@bigfoot.com> <7jlplj$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: h+fIshPLkO3Fe/GdoQT9F5yyUvsY8YGu1HJslKUMavw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 04:28:24 GMT X-Face: "_p7hm!(`R/h:x.fFi's;ncuxZ`[YALx6^qjs>UnIu!^{.#Fcv'n3?\]tApx6 T%'@]NRNZ3Yy>|*}>.X_BP0KeiXDhQCx" User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!scottm25 In article <7jlplj$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk>, Ben Hutchings wrote: >Scott (scottm25@bigfoot.com) wrote: >: In article <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley >: wrote: > >: >I only encountered a Lynx once, but quite liked it. Very nice >: >graphics, as I recall. >: > >: I still have my Lynx. I love the thing! Some of the guys who worked on >: the Amiga designed it. I always wanted to try developing for it. >: Thought it might be fun. Just to see how the thing worked even. > > >Aren't you thinking of the Atari Lynx game system? > Oops. Yep. -- -- Scott Maxwell - scottm25 (at) bigfoot (dot) com My shrink? I just go to him for refills! ###### Sender: justin@glader.DoCS.UU.SE Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's References: <7jlaf3$5uq$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> From: Justin Pearson Date: 10 Jun 1999 10:23:52 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: glader.docs.uu.se X-Trace: 10 Jun 1999 10:23:58 +0100, glader.docs.uu.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed.uu.se!glader.docs.uu.se euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: > On 1999-06-08 pete@fenelon.com said: > :> Or the Torch XXX, a Unix workstation (68010-based) with a > :>macintosh-like desktop frontend (but in colour), and a BBC > :>micro-like 1MHz bus for expansion. No I am not joking. > > :Lovely machine. I can't remember what the third X was for (X11, X. > :25 and something else...). For a while a TripleX was the X.25 > :gateway for my then-employers... > > uniX? > -- > Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing I seem to remember that it was CP/M. It was basically a BBC Micro with a Z80 Co-processor in different casing. Co-processors were quite interesting on the BBC. You used the BBC for I/O and graphics and the co-processor for the rest. Communication was over a 1Mhz bus (I think). There was a 6502 co-processor, a Z80 box running CPM, and a 16032. Maybe the later Torchs where unix based. Justin ###### From: support@cs.york.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 10 Jun 1999 14:36:15 GMT Organization: The University of York, UK Lines: 36 Sender: pnt1@york.ac.uk Message-ID: <7joigv$6oi$1@pump1.york.ac.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk> <7jmj5v$sh@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: indy005.cs.york.ac.uk X-Trace: pump1.york.ac.uk 929025375 6930 144.32.40.69 (10 Jun 1999 14:36:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 14:36:15 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980514 (UNIX) (IRIX/5.3 (IP22)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!news.york.ac.uk!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote: > : IIRC, that was a weird coprocessor thing with a Z80 in it. The Acorn > : Master Plan was that the BBC was never intended to be a stand-alone > : computer, it was really supposed to be the I/O processor for another > : computer entirely; hence the Tube high-speed interface. Acorn only got > : round to producing the 65C02 second processor in quantities. This had > : 50-odd kilobytes of memory, ran at 4MHz 3MHz on the original; the Master Turbo (an internal version for the Master 128) ran at 4MHz. > The Acorn Z80 second processor is quite common. The other ones (32016 (or > 16032) and ARM 1) are much rarer. There was also an 80186 internal > coprocessor for the Master IIRC. Yes, I have two Acorn Z80s and two Torch Z80s. The Acorn one runs real CP/M, the Torch one uses a not-overly-compatible system called CPN. The 80186 internal copro was called the Master 512. > : The Torch was a third-party second processor, designed to run CP/M, that > : didn't really comply with Acorn's standard. I believe the floppy disk > Correct. IIRC Tube copros connected to the 1MHz bus not to the Tube. The > Z80 and Graduate (8088) both did (I have them). No, The Torch (I think that's what Tony means :-)) connects to the Tube, not to the 1MHz Bus. And there were indeed problems caused by the way it nearly-but-not-quite adhered to Acorn's normal Tube protocols. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York ###### From: chriss@uk.uu.net (Chris Stratford) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 10 Jun 1999 16:36:58 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7jopja$5ib$1@wave.cam.uk.internal> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> Reply-To: Chris.Stratford@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Host: anduin.cam.uk.internal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!wave.news.pipex.net!wave.puck.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail In article <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: > I'll see you a UK101 (I saw a schematic of that, but no more) and raise > you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky graphics and > rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 (did anyone ever have one > of these? 1802-based, with "the slowest version of Basic ever > encountered", according to one site). That comment sounds familiar. There's a copy of the Your Computer review of the Comx 35 at: http://www.gondolin.org.uk/hchof/reviews/text/yc-comx35.html If anyone's interested (sorry, couldn't resists a quick plug). I've yet to find one of these machines for sale anywhere yet, though. One day... Chris. ###### From: cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk (C Lamb) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 10 Jun 1999 17:55:46 GMT Organization: Sheffield University, UK Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7jou72$gor$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <375F6981.FC636B0@student.canterbury.ac.nz> Reply-To: cs1cl@stoat.shef.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: stoat.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!news.shef.ac.uk!stoat!cs1cl jrh68 (jrh68@student.canterbury.ac.nz) wrote: : While at high school ( 6 years ago ) we stumbled across an old machine : in : an old room. It was made by cambridge computers ?? It was an all in one, : sort of like a Lisa, and I think used a BBC to do I/O, and it had an : NS 32016 ??? as its main processor. It had a tube interface to the 6502, : and had some funky OS, which was like a BBC too. Yep, I've seen one of those too, at Birmingham University (UK) in (then) Dr Borchards office. It was (_very_ loosely_ the precursor to the Archimedes. I have a feeling it was the first National Semi. 32bit processor. There is a small writeup on it at the back of the Watford Electronics BBC Master Reference manual. This was all back in 1988/89. There was a lab of BBC Masters outside his office and I used them mostly as a terminal to the Gandalf and then on to the IBM3090-200S that Birmingham had at the time (probably the worst machine I ever worked on). regards Chris : Jon. ###### From: jrh68 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:30:09 +1200 Organization: University of Canterbury Lines: 28 Message-ID: <375F6981.FC636B0@student.canterbury.ac.nz> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jke59$29q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7jlprl$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.181.13.202 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!usenet.net.nz!news.iprolink.co.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!not-for-mail > IIRC, that was a weird coprocessor thing with a Z80 in it. The Acorn > Master Plan was that the BBC was never intended to be a stand-alone > computer, it was really supposed to be the I/O processor for another > computer entirely; hence the Tube high-speed interface. Acorn only got > round to producing the 65C02 second processor in quantities. This had > 50-odd kilobytes of memory, ran at 4MHz (I think), and was really rather > nice. As the second processor didn't have to handle any I/O, it didn't get > interrupts very often, and so was good for number-crunching. > > There were plans for a 68k-based second processor, Z80/8080, something > obscure with 80 in the name, and a couple of risc things. Prototypes were > made, and are now quite valuable. > > The Torch was a third-party second processor, designed to run CP/M, that > didn't really comply with Acorn's standard. I believe the floppy disk > interface was connected to the Z80 rather than the 6502? People kept > writing to the Acorn magazines with weird compatibility problems. While at high school ( 6 years ago ) we stumbled across an old machine in an old room. It was made by cambridge computers ?? It was an all in one, sort of like a Lisa, and I think used a BBC to do I/O, and it had an NS 32016 ??? as its main processor. It had a tube interface to the 6502, and had some funky OS, which was like a BBC too. Jon. ###### From: Liam Busey Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:21:24 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <37601E44.1E9D@ix.netcom.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <4910181f0aa__fake__address@127.0.0.1> Reply-To: liam1@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: rvl-md15-21.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 10 3:08:04 PM CDT 1999 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news Dave Daniels wrote: > > In article , > David Given wrote: > > BTW, anyone remember the Aquarius, a machine I saw reviewed in said > > Yes, I remember the adverts for the Aquarius. A 6502-based machine > made by Mattel, IIRC. ISTR thinking that it looked somewhat > underpowered even then. The term 'sunk without trace' comes to > mind to describe how successful it was (IIRC). The Aquarius was Z80 based. Liam Busey ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:43:36 GMT Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7jp11g$2snl$1@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7jcqb5$61b$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 929040240 94965 194.154.98.206 (10 Jun 1999 18:44:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 18:44:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert In article , Ariel Scolnicov wrote: >euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: > >> On 1999-06-05 don@news.daedalus.co.nz(DonStokes) said: >> >> :Where is Uncle Clive now? >> >> Apparently he's suddenly woken up to Linux, and wants to make a >> RISC-based portable (maybe Z88-scale?) using it. So that'll be along in >> about 2 years, then... > >Do we get a power switch this time round? > It'll be *advertised* in a couple of years, and then once you've threatened legal action, you'll get the computer only three months after that. Happened to me twice. Didn't try a third time. -- barnacle http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:58:08 +0100 Organization: None Message-ID: <4910181f0aa__fake__address@127.0.0.1> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: userl529.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 929041640 3586 193.149.75.88 (10 Jun 1999 19:07:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 19:07:20 GMT User-Agent: Pluto/1.11k (RISC-OS/3.7) Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 In article , David Given wrote: > BTW, anyone remember the Aquarius, a machine I saw reviewed in said Yes, I remember the adverts for the Aquarius. A 6502-based machine made by Mattel, IIRC. ISTR thinking that it looked somewhat underpowered even then. The term 'sunk without trace' comes to mind to describe how successful it was (IIRC). Dave -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:04:28 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 33 Message-ID: <491018b32da__fake__address@127.0.0.1> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: userl529.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 929041643 3586 193.149.75.88 (10 Jun 1999 19:07:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 19:07:23 GMT User-Agent: Pluto/1.11k (RISC-OS/3.7) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 In article <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, wrote: > What was the first British computer to really make it big? I get the I would say that the ZX81 was the first really successful British machine. Ready built it was 79 UKP, IIRC. The kit version was 50 UKP. I would say that it was the first cheap non-trivial machine. At that kind of price you had the Science of Cambridge MK14, which had a hex keypad and a eight digit LED display, and the Microtan (?) which, although expandable into a 'real' computer, was not much more sophisticated in its most basic form. Moving slightly up market you had machines like the Acorn Atom which cost about 120 UKP in its most basic form but the ZX81 was cheap and more than usable. It had a proper (if minute) keyboard, a nice Basic interpreter, worked with the TV and had a very good manual. The manual had lots of information on the operating system variables and a list of Z80 opcodes, just what was needed to send thousands of spotty British youths down the path of enlightenment to geekdom. The microcomputer scene was developing quite nicely when the ZX81 came along, but it made computers affordable. Dave -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:05:41 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 19 Message-ID: <491018d00fa__fake__address@127.0.0.1> References: <636.827T2569T12345098ghira@mistral.co.uk> <7jk09e$mmr$4@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7jk8eg$hj8$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: userl529.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 929041650 3586 193.149.75.88 (10 Jun 1999 19:07:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 19:07:30 GMT User-Agent: Pluto/1.11k (RISC-OS/3.7) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 In article <7jk8eg$hj8$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Rob Nicholson wrote: > show in London. Wasn't it advertised as "using the chip used in the space > shuttle"? That rings a bell - I think it used a 1802 microprocessor. Dave -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:15:00 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 39 Message-ID: <491019aa0ea__fake__address@127.0.0.1> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jjj45$2og$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <7jke59$29q@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7jlprl$2bv@relay.lsl.co.uk> <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: userl529.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 929041654 3586 193.149.75.88 (10 Jun 1999 19:07:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 19:07:34 GMT User-Agent: Pluto/1.11k (RISC-OS/3.7) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!f.de.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!uunet!ams.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 In article <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk>, David Given wrote: > There were plans for a 68k-based second processor, Z80/8080, something > obscure with 80 in the name, and a couple of risc things. Prototypes were > made, and are now quite valuable. The Z80 second processor was released. It used a 6MHz Z80 and ran CP/M. The 'Cambridge Workstation' was a Beeb with 32016 (or was it a 32032?) second processor. There was also the ARM second processor, which cost three or four grand and used the ARM 1. The BBC Master had a 80186 second processor that could be fitted internally. It ran DOS Plus and GEM and turned the Master into a reasonably compatible PC. There was also a second version of the 6502 coprocessor that could be mounted internally in the BBC Master. That was the one that ran at 4Mhz. The original one, for the BBC micro, ran at 3Mhz. I am not aware of any other second processors that were released. According to something I read in one of the Acorn magazines, the second processor idea allowed Acorn to experiment with different types of processor to see which one offered the best prospects for use in future products. They came to the conclusion that the only way they could obtain a large jump in performance was if they designed their own. Thus, the ARM was born. Dave -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### From: "Rob Nicholson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:40:28 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7jp18r$qgb$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jjjiv$2og$3@teabag.demon.co.uk> <090619990132017716%scottm25@bigfoot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-80.postman.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 929040475 27147 62.136.108.208 (10 Jun 1999 18:47:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1999 18:47:55 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail > I still have my Lynx. I love the thing! Some of the guys who worked on > the Amiga designed it. I always wanted to try developing for it. > Thought it might be fun. Just to see how the thing worked even. Ah - we're talking about the Atari Lynx. I was thinking of the Camputers Lynx, a crap Z80 system. Yes, the Atari Lynx was wonderful - I wrote a handful of games for it. Rob. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 10 Jun 1999 22:10:05 +0100 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7jp9jd$10a@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <8pslj7.feb.ln@pearl.tao.co.uk> <7jmj5v$sh@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7joigv$6oi$1@pump1.york.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929061289 nnrp-02:9658 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail support@cs.york.ac.uk wrote: : > Correct. IIRC Tube copros connected to the 1MHz bus not to the Tube. The : > Z80 and Graduate (8088) both did (I have them). : No, The Torch (I think that's what Tony means :-)) connects to the Tube, Oops... Yes, just looked at the card. The Torch Z80 (and that's what I meant) connects to the Tube. The Graduate connects to the 1MHz bus, though. Never tried to connect both to the same Beeb at the same time. Nor have I tried to link a Graduate to the X-bus of a XXX (:-)). : not to the 1MHz Bus. And there were indeed problems caused by the way it : nearly-but-not-quite adhered to Acorn's normal Tube protocols. Well, the Torch Z80 didn't use a Tube ULA. It used a 6522 and an 8255 communicating through the ports. Oh well... -tony ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:58:50 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3761242A.F05DDDE0@plano.net> References: <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7jh0gi$2a1$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> <375F6981.FC636B0@student.canterbury.ac.nz> <7jou72$gor$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.1 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:52:47 GMT X-Trace: 929130767.166.20 NI6GKZCYD2901D12CC qube-02.us-ca.remarq.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.supernews.com.MISMATCH!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail C Lamb wrote: > > jrh68 (jrh68@student.canterbury.ac.nz) wrote: > > : While at high school ( 6 years ago ) we stumbled across an old machine in > : an old room. It was made by cambridge computers ?? It was an all in one, > : sort of like a Lisa, and I think used a BBC to do I/O, and it had an > : NS 32016 ??? as its main processor. It had a tube interface to the 6502, > : and had some funky OS, which was like a BBC too. > > Yep, I've seen one of those too, at Birmingham University (UK) in > (then) Dr Borchards office. It was (_very_ loosely_ the precursor to > the Archimedes. I have a feeling it was the first National Semi. 32bit > processor. There is a small writeup on it at the back of the Watford > Electronics BBC Master Reference manual. > This was all back in 1988/89. > The NS 32016 was a 32-bit processor inside, but it had a 16-bit external data bus. In this respect, it was kind of like the MC68000. The NS 32032 version was essentially the same processor built on a 32-bit external data bus. I saw an instruction set (order code) listing for the NS 32016. I found it interesting that it had a CASE assembly language instruction. As I remember, it used a table of jump addresses and picked the address to branch to based on a small integer from a register. (The details may be in error...it's been 20 years since I looked at that listing.) I heard rumors that there were problems with the NS 32032 instruction execution...some bug in the hardware implementation. Does any one have any details about this? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 11 Jun 1999 21:08:12 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7jrtrs$sdr$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <375E0A2F.D82977BA@pdb.siemens.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.154.50 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929135292 29115 212.1.154.50 (11 Jun 1999 21:08:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 1999 21:08:12 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-09 josef.moellers@pdb.siemens.de said: :> graphics, as I recall. As for the TI99, didn't that hold the :>rather dubious accolade of being one of the slowest machines ever, :>in spite of its then almost unprecedented 16-bit CPU? The weird :>memory model might explain this if it's true... :"Memory model" might be the wrong term: "CPU architecture" might be :better: the 9900 series CPUs had their registers in memory. A base :pointer addressed the first register and context switch was simple: :just reload the base register ... Later models had some kind of :cache, iirc. The 9995 was the one used in the TI99, IIRC; it had an 8-bit bus, and I think it had 256 bytes on chip (a handy fast place to put the registers; you could get 8 sets in there, which seems to be a kind of precursor to the SPARC's register windows). Unfortunately, if you have to access RAM through a 9918 (or 28, 29, etc), it's slow as flowing treacle... Memotech users tended to find that it also produced a display just a bit too wide for standard TVs. (At least, I did.) -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 11 Jun 1999 21:08:14 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7jrtru$sdr$2@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <7jk8eg$hj8$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.154.50 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929135294 29115 212.1.154.50 (11 Jun 1999 21:08:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 1999 21:08:14 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-09 rob.nicholson@unforgettable.com said: :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers :> you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky :>graphics and rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 (did :>anyone ever have one of these? 1802-based, with "the slowest :>version of Basic ever encountered", according to one site). :Goodness - you mean they actually made the Comx!! I remember seeing :it at a show in London. Wasn't it advertised as "using the chip :used in the space shuttle"? God knows. By the time I got into computers, the company had already come and gone. I seem to recall that they managed to never actually get the thing into production. The 1802 was a slow chip anyway, which really didn't help matters. -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:36 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7jtb28$h0i$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <4910181f0aa__fake__address@127.0.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181576 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 09:59:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:36 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-10 a__fake__address@127.0.0.1 said: :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers :In article , :David Given wrote: :> BTW, anyone remember the Aquarius, a machine I saw reviewed in :said :Yes, I remember the adverts for the Aquarius. A 6502-based machine :made by Mattel, IIRC. ISTR thinking that it looked somewhat :underpowered even then. The term 'sunk without trace' comes to :mind to describe how successful it was (IIRC). Was it 6502...? For some reason I believed it to be Z80, but I could easily be wrong. It sank without trace twice, in fact; they produced an Aquarius II, which had a real keyboard (although Mattel had dropped it by then, so it was produced under the name of Radofin, its designer company). -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:52 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7jtb2o$h0i$6@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181592 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 09:59:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:52 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!news-fra.maz.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.sollentuna.se!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-09 lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com(DannyLingman) said: :It was nice having a basic aware keyboard. I wonder how hard :it would be to hack something up that would do the same thing :for C++... Ugh. It was bad enough for BASIC. All those icky modes and things... Besides, I thought that's what the modes in Emacs were for? -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:53 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181593 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 09:59:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:53 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-09 jchausler@delphi.com said: :Following this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the Radio :Shack MC-10, a stripped down low cost version of the COCO and :thus sometimes called the POCO. It used a 6803 (a 6801 with its :internal rom disabled) instead of the 6809 in the COCO's. I :believe it was an attempt to attract the same market as the ZX-81 :(ie low cost). Although color, it was a little too little a :little too late and didn't last long on the market. I had a lot :of fun with mine the year or so I played with it. Anyone else :remember it? I remember it. I quite fancied one, except that the 6803 was (iirc) a cut-down 6800. If there were ever a CPU that shouldn't have been cut down... A 6809-based machine would have been much more fun, and I can't help wishing that Sinclair had discovered this processor first. Instead there was only ever the Dragon 32 (given that over here, the CoCo was hopelessly overpriced). -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:55 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Message-ID: <7jtb2r$h0i$8@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <491018b32da__fake__address@127.0.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181595 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 09:59:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:55 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-10 a__fake__address@127.0.0.1 said: : wrote: :> What was the first British computer to really make it big? :I would say that the ZX81 was the first really successful British :machine. Ready built it was 79 UKP, IIRC. The kit version was 50 :UKP. I would say that it was the first cheap non-trivial machine. That's what I thought; it's certainly where I started. The price dropped in later years; I got my first new one for 45 quid, including a RAM pack (the beloved Memotech one). My next computer was a Commodore 16, for 5 quid more; same memory size, but colour and highish res graphics. I loved that machine; I still have it, although I truly doubt that it still works. -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:56 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7jtb2s$h0i$9@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <4wu73.2571$tU2.80932@news2.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181596 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 09:59:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:56 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-09 swaim@gemini.c-com.net said: :David Given wrote: :: In article <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk>, :: pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) writes: ::> You could actually expand the TI into quite a powerful machine. ::> I used to drool over descriptions in the user group magazines of ::> systems with the peripheral expansion box, twin disk drives, ::> 32K of RAM and the ability to do machine code, RS232 and more. ::> It's just a shame the basic machine was so crippled. :: When we say RAM, are we talking real (on-chip) RAM or fake :(interpreted) : RAM? :Real. The assembler cartridge came with 4K nonvideo RAM. (And :battery backup, too, I believe.) The graphics chip maxed out at 16k, in any case, so expanding that RAM would have been quite out of the question. -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:58 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7jtb2u$h0i$10@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <7jk5uk$j8r$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181598 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 09:59:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:59:58 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-08 pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk said: :>I'll see you a UK101 (I saw a schematic of that, but no more) and :>raise you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky :>graphics and rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 :How about a CGL M5? :http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~pmaydell/hardware/hallath/ :Not very nice, not very common, but the Guttang Guttong :puzzle/arcade game is fun :-> I think I actually saw one of these once... Just fleetingly, walking round a showroom, but enough to realise that it existed. Who remembers the portable that (was it...?) Prism produced? A CP/M Plus machine, with 128k memory(???), keyboard that slid out from the main box and a built-in modem (may have been an option) for a grand? And there was another TMS9995-based computer too, available as a kit for 300 quid. That one had 64k main memory and was rather more use than the TI99/4a; I think it may have been sold as a control computer. And what about the TI99/2? Also, how many Spectrum clones got produced in Russia? I remember reading about one called the Hobbit, which had a disk interface. On the same line, can you still get SAM Coupes? Last question: can anyone flog me a disk interface for the Spectrum? -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:00:00 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Message-ID: <7jtb30$h0i$11@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <7jme8l$3p9$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181600 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 10:00:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:00:00 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-09 cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk(ChrisHedley) said: :euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: :> What was the first British computer to really make it big? I get :>the impression that the BBC is very much Britain's Apple II, but :>other than that... I'm only thinking of UK sales here. :Curiously, in spite of the Apple 2's reputation, I've never :encountered anyone who owned one and only saw one "in the flesh" on :one occasion. And that was in a shop display... ISTR the most Ditto. And that was just four years ago. :likely reason was (at risk of being repetitive) its price; nearly :double that of a BBC/B IIRC. Yep. Meanwhile one of the guys next door has (I think) promised me one of his two BBC Masters - hence my (er) accusation that the BBC occupied the position in the UK which the Apple II took in the US. (For sheer popularity, the Commodore 64 is probably the US equivalent to the Spectrum in the UK. But for aspirational quality...) -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:00:01 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7jtb31$h0i$12@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <7jopja$5ib$1@wave.cam.uk.internal> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181601 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 10:00:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:00:01 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-10 Chris.Stratford@uk.uu.net said: :euphrates@freenet.co.uk writes: :> I'll see you a UK101 (I saw a schematic of that, but no more) and :>raise you a Laser 200 (sub-Spectrum computer with colour blocky :>graphics and rubber keys, for about 69 quid) and a Comx 35 (did :>anyone ever have one of these? 1802-based, with "the slowest :>version of Basic ever encountered", according to one site). :That comment sounds familiar. Well, I was hoping someone would say that, so that I could turn round and say: Then it'll be your site I cribbed it from. :> Thanks. -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: euphrates@freenet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:00:03 GMT Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7jtb33$h0i$13@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <7jp11g$2snl$1@quince.news.easynet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.1.149.240 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929181603 17426 212.1.149.240 (12 Jun 1999 10:00:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:00:03 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-06-10 nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com(barnacle) said: :>> Apparently he's suddenly woken up to Linux, and wants to make a :>> RISC-based portable (maybe Z88-scale?) using it. So that'll be :>>along in about 2 years, then... :>Do we get a power switch this time round? :It'll be *advertised* in a couple of years, and then once you've :threatened legal action, you'll get the computer only three months :after that. Happened to me twice. Didn't try a third time. Hmm. Seems to me that although pretty much everyone in the UK started on one or the other variant of a Sinclair computer, the man himself employed some highly dubious business practices... -- Communa -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: lennartb@xs4all.nl (Lennart Benschop) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 12 Jun 1999 10:26:23 +0200 Organization: none Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7jt5jf$8e$1@ozzie.donsje> References: <7jk8eg$hj8$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <7jrtru$sdr$2@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dc2-modem1538.dial.xs4all.nl X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 929176165 5174 194.109.134.2 (12 Jun 1999 08:29:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1999 08:29:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail In article <7jrtru$sdr$2@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, wrote: > > >On 1999-06-09 rob.nicholson@unforgettable.com said: > :Goodness - you mean they actually made the Comx!! I remember seeing > :it at a show in London. Wasn't it advertised as "using the chip > :used in the space shuttle"? > >God knows. By the time I got into computers, the company had already >come and gone. I seem to recall that they managed to never actually get >the thing into production. The 1802 was a slow chip anyway, which really >didn't help matters. The Comx35 WAS in production and is was on the market in the Netherlands (I think in 1984). I even played with one for a while at an electronics exhibit. The importer provided 'free' software for it in the form of BASIC listings that you could type. There were also some cassettes. For the Commodore 64 you could get much more software, the C64 had more processing power and the price was about the same . No wonder the Comx35 didn't get a huge market share. -- Lennart ###### From: william.hamblen@nashvile.com (William Hamblen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:44:51 GMT Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3763aa51.726010@news.nashville.com> References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.65.139.116 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:45:15 GMT X-Trace: 929223915.934.94 UDZDCTQAN8B74CF41C qube-02.us-ca.remarq.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail On 12 Jun 1999 09:59:53 GMT, euphrates@freenet.co.uk wrote: >I remember it. I quite fancied one, except that the 6803 was (iirc) a >cut-down 6800. If there were ever a CPU that shouldn't have been cut >down... A 6809-based machine would have been much more fun, and I can't >help wishing that Sinclair had discovered this processor first. Instead >there was only ever the Dragon 32 (given that over here, the CoCo was >hopelessly overpriced). The 6801 and 6803 are supersets of the 6800, with the addition of a Y index register (much needed) and a few more instructions. The Dragon 64 was built in the USA for a short while by TANO Corp of New Orleans from parts supplied by Dragon Data. After production ended California Digital sold the remaining stock for something like $15 each. They still might have some left. California Digital also had CP/M 2.2 for $5 a copy. ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sat, 12 Jun 99 22:48:31 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 X-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news1.carrier1.net!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news writes: >I remember it. I quite fancied one, except that the 6803 was (iirc) a >cut-down 6800. If there were ever a CPU that shouldn't have been cut >down... A 6809-based machine would have been much more fun, and I can't >help wishing that Sinclair had discovered this processor first. Instead >there was only ever the Dragon 32 (given that over here, the CoCo was >hopelessly overpriced). The 6801/3 was actually an enhanced 6800 engine. It added instructions to allow the A and B registers to be operated on as one 16 bit 'D' register as well asmproved data movement instructions, especially the ABX instruction. It also was a "single-chip" machine and there was a version where the on board ROM was an EPROM instead (68701). One popular version of the 6801 was the 6801L1 which had a debugging program LILBUG in the ROM. I have a Motorola single board 6801EVM which came with this chip. The EVM would also support the 68701 with the PROBUG debugger (it ahd the routines to program the EPROM) on a separate 2716. Chris ###### From: eldredge@poboxes.com (John F. Eldredge) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:44:43 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 13 Jun 1999 04:44:45 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sat Jun 12 21:45:08 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-NFilter: 1.0.0-b1 Lines: 22 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip169.nashville14.tn.pub-ip.psi.net Message-ID: <376435c1.86281824@localhost> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail So far, I haven't seen anyone mention the ZX-80, the original version of the ZX-81. The primary difference between the two computers was the lack of Slow mode, so you had to put up with the display losing synchronization every time you pressed a key. My first computer was a MicroAce, a clone of the ZX-80. Apparently, it was an illegal clone, as the company vanished without a trace a few months after I bought my computer. The MicroAce was sold only as a kit; I remember that I spent $200 on it, took two days to put it together, then had to ship it back to the factory and pay another $50 or so to have them figure out why it didn't work. It had only 2K of RAM, but I never succeeded in typing in a long enough program to run out of memory. This was because the heat sink on the power regulator was mounted on the motherboard, right next to the RAM and CPU. After about 10 minutes of operation, the computer would overheat, the display would black out, and the computer wouldn't work until you turned it off for a few minutes to cool down. -- John F. Eldredge -- eldredge@poboxes.com PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/ -- "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:27:24 GMT Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7jvff7$2mr4$1@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <7jp11g$2snl$1@quince.news.easynet.net> <7jtb33$h0i$13@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 929251623 88932 194.154.98.206 (13 Jun 1999 05:27:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 1999 05:27:03 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert In article <7jtb33$h0i$13@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, euphrates@freenet.co.uk wrote: > > >On 1999-06-10 nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com(barnacle) said: > :>> Apparently he's suddenly woken up to Linux, and wants to make a > :>> RISC-based portable (maybe Z88-scale?) using it. So that'll be > :>>along in about 2 years, then... > > :>Do we get a power switch this time round? > > :It'll be *advertised* in a couple of years, and then once you've > :threatened legal action, you'll get the computer only three months > :after that. Happened to me twice. Didn't try a third time. > >Hmm. Seems to me that although pretty much everyone in the UK started on >one or the other variant of a Sinclair computer, the man himself >employed some highly dubious business practices... The view of myself and several people in similar circumstances was generally that the chap had some damn good ideas but he seemed to used the punters as venture capital to get them off the ground. Maybe not true, but that's how it felt. Remember 'Black Watch' and the 'smaller than a matchbox' radio? btw...my zx80 didn't go first time and I was immensly pleased with myself for diagnosising a faulty diode in the kb scan... -- barnacle http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 13 Jun 1999 09:14:53 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 929254372 10582 194.90.227.153 (13 Jun 1999 06:12:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 1999 06:12:52 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!uunet!lax.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) writes: [...] > It was nice having a basic aware keyboard. I wonder how hard > it would be to hack something up that would do the same thing > for C++... Indeed, who can forget the experience of walking up to a Spectrum and typing in: 10 PRINT RINT -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: prs@gol.com (Peter Stephenson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Message-ID: <3764a78f.1538098@nnrp.gol.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:46:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.42.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 929277961 203.216.42.63 (Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:46:01 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:46:01 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!POSTED.nnrp.gol.com!not-for-mail Oh God, I'm really sorry about this. Really. I've never ever given in to the temptation to write this before. Please forgive me, but: Me too! Me too! Me too! >lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) writes: > >Indeed, who can forget the experience of walking up to a Spectrum and >typing in: > >10 PRINT RINT ###### From: Bruce Lin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 13 Jun 1999 19:47:37 GMT Organization: Princeton University Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phoenix.princeton.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail In alt.folklore.computers Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > Indeed, who can forget the experience of walking up to a Spectrum and > typing in: > > 10 PRINT RINT Why, what did this do? Bruce ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 06:17:41 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 49 Message-ID: <929341059.653330@estelle.paradise.net.nz> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: estelle.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 929341061 3785519 203.96.152.5 (14 Jun 1999 06:17:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1999 06:17:41 GMT Cache-Post-Path: estelle.paradise.net.nz!unknown@p16-cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don In article <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, Bruce Lin wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > >> Indeed, who can forget the experience of walking up to a Spectrum and >> typing in: >> >> 10 PRINT RINT > >Why, what did this do? It would attempt to print the variable RINT. What did you think it would do? But if you went up to a Speccy or a ZX80 or ZX81 and typed '10 PRINT', the above is what you'd get. Y'see, Sinclair's BASIC interpreter had a somewhat modeful program entry mode. You start in K (keyword) mode, with an inverse-K cursor, which would let you enter a line number and/or a keyword -- the keywords being marked on the keyboard. The keyword associated with 'P' was PRINT, 'N' NEXT, F, FOR and so-on. (A lot of ZX programmers used N as a FOR loop control variable, because to terminate the loop, you just hit NN to get NEXT N.) Once you hit a keyword, you went into L mode and could type normal expressions. Function keywords were entered by hitting the FUNCTION key (shift-NEWLINE, IIRC) which put you into F mode, and then hitting the appropriate key to get the keyword. Then there was G mode for graphics characters. Note that keywords entered letter by letter were *never* understood. Each key was labelled something like: GOSUB .-------. | ** | | H # | `-------' SQR The '**' is the "raise to power" operator -- two '*'s didn't cut it -- and could be got via the SIFT key. GOSUB is the keyword (ie what you get if you hit H unshifted in K mode), SQR is the function (from F mode), and the '#' is supposed to represent the "grey cell" graphic character that you got in G mode. This is for the ZX81 -- I never had a speccy meself, but I recall it being very similar. -- don ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 08:29:08 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <3764a78f.1538098@nnrp.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 929338025 3454 194.90.227.153 (14 Jun 1999 05:27:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1999 05:27:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newspeer1.nac.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail prs@gol.com (Peter Stephenson) writes: > Oh God, I'm really sorry about this. Really. I've never ever given > in to the temptation to write this before. Please forgive me, but: > > Me too! Me too! Me too! > > >lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) writes: I've been called a lot of names before, but this is the first time someone's called me a Lingman... [...] -- Ariel Scolnicov |"GCAAGAATTGAACTGTAG" |ariels@compugen.co.il Compugen Ltd. |Tel: +972-2-6795059 (Jerusalem) \ NEW IMPROVED URL! 72 Pinhas Rosen St. |Tel: +972-3-7658520 (Main office)`-------------------- Tel-Aviv 69512, ISRAEL |Fax: +972-3-7658555 http://3w.compugen.co.il/~ariels ###### From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Date: 14 Jun 1999 12:06:09 GMT Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7k2r7h$n9u@relay.lsl.co.uk> References: <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7jtb2o$h0i$6@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.9.200.110 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!158.43.192.65.MISMATCH!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.lsl.co.uk!benh euphrates@freenet.co.uk wrote: : On 1999-06-09 lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com(DannyLingman) said: : :It was nice having a basic aware keyboard. I wonder how hard : :it would be to hack something up that would do the same thing : :for C++... : Ugh. It was bad enough for BASIC. All those icky modes and things... : Besides, I thought that's what the modes in Emacs were for? Now we have Microsoft(R) Intellisense(R) which helps you to complete words in your program, and appears to be the main cause of crashes in the VC++6 IDE. That's progress in the software industry for you! I think the same feature is used in VB and VJ++ as well. -- Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan. ###### From: Simon Craythorn Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:54:45 +0100 Organization: InterVations Ltd Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3764ED85.6268936@intervations.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <929341059.653330@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.188.105.220 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 929374613 17863 195.188.105.220 (14 Jun 1999 15:36:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1999 15:36:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!intervations.co.uk!not-for-mail Don Stokes wrote: > (A lot of > ZX programmers used N as a FOR loop control variable, because to > terminate the loop, you just hit NN to get NEXT N.) Old habits die hard. I still use n for my loop variable in C! Simon. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's From: bmarcum@iglou.com X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts5-50.iglou.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts5-50.iglou.com Message-ID: <37653a90.0@news.iglou.com> Date: 14 Jun 1999 13:23:28 -0500 X-Trace: 14 Jun 1999 13:23:28 -0500, lou-ts5-50.iglou.com Lines: 13 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: news-incoming.iglou.com Organization: IgLou Internet Services, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.225.159.2!news-out.uswest.net!uunet!chi.uu.net!sea.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!news.iglou.com!lou-ts5-50.iglou.com On 1999-06-13 brucelin@tucson.Princeton.EDU said: >misc:51759 In alt.folklore.computers Ariel Scolnicov >> wrote: Indeed, who can forget the >>experience of walking up to a Spectrum and typing in: >> 10 PRINT RINT >Why, what did this do? >Bruce On the Spectrum or ZX-81, typing the letter P by itself would produce the word PRINT. If you were accustomed to Basic on other machines, your natural impulse would be to type PRINT, which would result in PRINT RINT. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ###### From: Aaron Crane Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 14:00:27 -0600 Organization: The Spanish Inquisition. Well, you didn't expect that, did you? Lines: 24 Sender: aaron@planet Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-153.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: never X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.155.56.21!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!planet.rmsq.com!nobody In article <37651c00.217116@news>, martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) writes: > When typing programs into a Spectrum, the thing tried to be helpful. It > knew that after a line number there must be a command, so as soon as you > hit "P", it wrote "PRINT " for you. It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the ZX81 at least) was that characters had variable-width representations (though the width was always an integer number of glyph cells). For example, one character (sorry, I don't remember the code) printed as the five glyph cells `PRINT'[1] and this single character was stored in memory as part of the program. Indeed, every BASIC keyword was a single character. Considering that the ZX81 had only 1k of RAM as standard, this greatly increased the maximum length of program that could be stored. In addition, the interpreter only had to dispatch on a single byte in each line of code, without parsing a keyword. [1] Actually, I think there was a space after the letters, which would make the PRINT character six glyphs wide. -- Aaron Crane ** Please send on-topic followups by Usenet, not email ** ###### From: martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:15:08 GMT Organization: The Seventh Heaven, Berlin, Germany Lines: 21 Message-ID: <37651c00.217116@news> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: volterra.home.ibert.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!unlisys!news.snafu.de!home.ibert.com!news On 13 Jun 1999 19:47:37 GMT, Bruce Lin wrote: >> 10 PRINT RINT > >Why, what did this do? You didn't get the joke. When typing programs into a Spectrum, the thing tried to be helpful. It knew that after a line number there must be a command, so as soon as you hit "P", it wrote "PRINT " for you. If your fingers just kept typing the remaining letters of "PRINT", you end up with "PRINT RINT", so that you have to go back and delete the "RINT" part and put in what you meant to print in the first place. Or so I seem to remember. I've never actually owned such a beast. -- >> Please visit http://www.ibert.com/ for further information. << ----------------------------------------------------------------- Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Remember the heroes of Tiananmen Square, Beijing, P. R. of China! ###### From: lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 16:29:01 GMT Organization: Northern Telecom Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7k3akd$bu7$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <3764a78f.1538098@nnrp.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars05r.ca.nortel.com To: Ariel Scolnicov Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!torn!qcarh002.nortelnetworks.com!bcarh189.ca.nortel.com!bmerhc5e.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!wcars05r.ca.nortel.com!lingman In article , Ariel Scolnicov writes: |> prs@gol.com (Peter Stephenson) writes: |> |> > Oh God, I'm really sorry about this. Really. I've never ever given |> > in to the temptation to write this before. Please forgive me, but: |> > |> > Me too! Me too! Me too! |> > |> > >lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) writes: |> |> I've been called a lot of names before, but this is the first time |> someone's called me a Lingman... |> [...] |> Ariel, I think he was referring to my use of rubberbands and plasticine to hold the memory pack on to the back end of the TS-1000/ZX-81 Dan. ###### From: Michael Davis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 17:58:21 -0400 Organization: InterLog Internet Services (416) 975-2655 info@interlog.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell1.interlog.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 14 Jun 1999 21:52:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.usit.net!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail In article , Aaron Crane wrote: >In article <37651c00.217116@news>, >martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) writes: >> When typing programs into a Spectrum, the thing tried to be helpful. It >> knew that after a line number there must be a command, so as soon as you >> hit "P", it wrote "PRINT " for you. > >It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both >storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the >ZX81 at least) was that characters had variable-width representations >(though the width was always an integer number of glyph cells). For >example, one character (sorry, I don't remember the code) printed as the >five glyph cells `PRINT'[1] and this single character was stored in memory >as part of the program. Indeed, every BASIC keyword was a single character. >Considering that the ZX81 had only 1k of RAM as standard, this greatly >increased the maximum length of program that could be stored. In addition, >the interpreter only had to dispatch on a single byte in each line of code, >without parsing a keyword. Actually, the Apple ][ also stored keywords as single bytes, and printed them as full words, for the same reasons of saving space and run time. There was also a neat design thing where there was a vector of addresses of the functions which implemented the BASIC keywords. And the tokenized keyword n pointed to the n'th address which implemented that keyword (actually, one address before it, because it would push the two bytes of the address onto the stack, and do a rts (return from subroutine). Quite efficient I thought. But you still had to type in the whole keyword. -- // Michael Davis -- Solaris code slave and happy Linux User. // // From sunny Toronto... ###### From: Bruce Lin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 19:58:08 GMT Organization: Princeton University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7k3msg$on4$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <929341059.653330@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: mesa.princeton.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.7 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail [ZX-81 flashbacks] Oh no, it's all coming back to me in a horrible flashback. In Grade 3 at my public school, our teacher had a little ZX-81 in the back corner of the class hooked up to a little black and white television. My friend and I were pretty bright so we'd race through our homework so that we could play around on the computer. We'd type in programs from that Usborne series of books ... Although I've forgotten about all those strange keywords, now I realize why I use "n" for my program loops. One other vivid memory I have of that computer: I'd seen my teacher type in programs. He'd enter a line of code, and then it would appear at the top of the screen. My friend and I, having not quite caught what happened in between, started a program with a line like "10 PRINT". Then, we proceeded to push the space key several hundred times to get the line to move up to the top of the screen like it was supposed to. Fortunately, my teacher taught us what the carriage return key was for before we became the first poster children (literally; we were about eight at the time) for carpal tunnel syndrome. Bruce ###### From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:52:03 -0400 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 15 Message-ID: <140619992052037935%scottm25@bigfoot.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: aleuH/0HZv7ZnnM+wJBlvSNlsW0rDL3kNsgGME6H/o0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 00:52:43 GMT X-Face: "_p7hm!(`R/h:x.fFi's;ncuxZ`[YALx6^qjs>UnIu!^{.#Fcv'n3?\]tApx6 T%'@]NRNZ3Yy>|*}>.X_BP0KeiXDhQCx" User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!scottm25 In article <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com>, Michael Davis wrote: >Actually, the Apple ][ also stored keywords as single bytes, and printed them >as full words, for the same reasons of saving space and run time. > The Commodore machines did the same thing too. Actually the Atari's did too. All the old 8-bits tokenized BASIC keywords as far as I know. The CBM and Atari machines also had the shorthand keyword entry. -- -- Scott Maxwell - scottm25 (at) bigfoot (dot) com My shrink? I just go to him for refills! ###### From: Philip Blundell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 14 Jun 1999 22:06:25 +0100 Organization: Impala Drive Sender: phil@tazenda.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <7k3qsh$9o3$1@kings-cross.london.uk.eu.org> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tazenda.demon.co.uk:158.152.220.239 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929455629 nnrp-04:4460 NO-IDENT tazenda.demon.co.uk:158.152.220.239 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Server-Date: 14 Jun 1999 21:06:25 GMT Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tazenda.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article <37651c00.217116@news>, Martin Ibert wrote: >You didn't get the joke. When typing programs into a Spectrum, the >thing tried to be helpful. It knew that after a line number there must >be a command, so as soon as you hit "P", it wrote "PRINT " for you. If >your fingers just kept typing the remaining letters of "PRINT", you >end up with "PRINT RINT", so that you have to go back and delete the Actually, I find it hard to believe that anybody's fingers would start running away from them on a Spectrum keyboard. From what I remember, typing on one was hard enough work, and slow enough, that you really had to mean every keystroke. :-) p. ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 15 Jun 1999 09:54:59 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 929429575 3570 194.90.227.153 (15 Jun 1999 06:52:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 06:52:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.atl!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail Michael Davis writes: > In article , > Aaron Crane wrote: > >In article <37651c00.217116@news>, > >martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) writes: > >> When typing programs into a Spectrum, the thing tried to be helpful. It > >> knew that after a line number there must be a command, so as soon as you > >> hit "P", it wrote "PRINT " for you. > > > >It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both > >storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the > >ZX81 at least) was that characters had variable-width representations > >(though the width was always an integer number of glyph cells). For > >example, one character (sorry, I don't remember the code) printed as the > >five glyph cells `PRINT'[1] and this single character was stored in memory > >as part of the program. Indeed, every BASIC keyword was a single character. > >Considering that the ZX81 had only 1k of RAM as standard, this greatly > >increased the maximum length of program that could be stored. In addition, > >the interpreter only had to dispatch on a single byte in each line of code, > >without parsing a keyword. > > Actually, the Apple ][ also stored keywords as single bytes, and printed them > as full words, for the same reasons of saving space and run time. There was also > a neat design thing where there was a vector of addresses of the functions > which implemented the BASIC keywords. And the tokenized keyword n pointed > to the n'th address which implemented that keyword (actually, one address > before it, because it would push the two bytes of the address onto the > stack, and do a rts (return from subroutine). Quite efficient I thought. > The beeb also tokenised BASIC keywords. You could type in "P." and it would expand to "PRINT". AFAIK, the tokens didn't index any vector. The command line was limited to 255 characters, so sometimes utilising token expansion was the only way to get a long line into the interpretter. There was also an amusing bug: if you typed in 10 G.10:G.10:... (where ... means repeat until all 255 characters are full) and pressed Enter, something would get overwritten, and the machine would crash, accompanied by strange sounds from the keyboard. > But you still had to type in the whole keyword. -- Ariel Scolnicov |"GCAAGAATTGAACTGTAG" |ariels@compugen.co.il Compugen Ltd. |Tel: +972-2-6795059 (Jerusalem) \ NEW IMPROVED URL! 72 Pinhas Rosen St. |Tel: +972-3-7658520 (Main office)`-------------------- Tel-Aviv 69512, ISRAEL |Fax: +972-3-7658555 http://3w.compugen.co.il/~ariels ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 15 Jun 1999 11:29:29 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 21 Message-ID: <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: estelle.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 929446169 3859285 203.96.152.5 (15 Jun 1999 11:29:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 11:29:29 GMT Cache-Post-Path: estelle.paradise.net.nz!unknown@p16-cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don In article , Aaron Crane wrote: >It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both >storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the Actually, almost every BASIC ever built did this, but most interpreted multi-character strings and "tokenised" them down to single byte/word codes taht could be interpreted faster. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head (I'm sure there were others) is TRS-80 Level 1 BASIC, which kept the whole line in memory, and you could use abbreviations like "P." for "PRINT" to save space and improve execution speed. ISTR BBC BASIC had a similar "shorthand", but the shorthand words were tokenised, so when you LISTed the program you saw the full keyword. With L1 BASIC, you still saw the abbreviated keyword, complete with '.'. The ZX single key entry did significantly speed up program entry on the 'orrible membrane (rubber for the Speccy) keyboard. But once entered, things looked a lot like they did in other BASICs. -- don ###### From: prs@gol.com (Peter Stephenson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Message-ID: <37663b2d.284957@nnrp.gol.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com> <140619992052037935%scottm25@bigfoot.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:40:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.42.171 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 929446839 203.216.42.171 (Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:40:39 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:40:39 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!POSTED.nnrp.gol.com!not-for-mail HP business basic on the HP250 did the same trick. You could tell because any formatting you entered was lost when it 'un-parsed' it to display it. On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:52:03 -0400, Scott wrote: >In article <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com>, Michael Davis > wrote: > >>Actually, the Apple ][ also stored keywords as single bytes, and printed them >>as full words, for the same reasons of saving space and run time. >> >The Commodore machines did the same thing too. Actually the Atari's did >too. All the old 8-bits tokenized BASIC keywords as far as I know. > >The CBM and Atari machines also had the shorthand keyword entry. > >-- ###### From: benh@lsl.co.uk (Ben Hutchings) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Date: 15 Jun 1999 12:15:00 GMT Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7k5g44$ldp@relay.lsl.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.9.200.110 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.lsl.co.uk!benh Aaron Crane (aaron.crane@pobox.com) wrote: : In article <37651c00.217116@news>, : martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) writes: : > When typing programs into a Spectrum, the thing tried to be helpful. It : > knew that after a line number there must be a command, so as soon as you : > hit "P", it wrote "PRINT " for you. : It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both : storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the : ZX81 at least) was that characters had variable-width representations : (though the width was always an integer number of glyph cells). This might sound like a stupid question, but... did the display generator translate these character codes into keyword texts? I know the ZX81 display generator is quite weird. -- Any opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Laser-Scan. ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:24:46 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <7k3ttt$2gv@shell1.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929450262 nnrp-07:17509 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!fu-berlin.de!news-europe.mathworks.com!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article , Ariel Scolnicov writes: [...] > There was also an amusing bug: if you typed in > 10 G.10:G.10:... > (where ... means repeat until all 255 characters are full) and > pressed Enter, something would get overwritten, and the machine would > crash, accompanied by strange sounds from the keyboard. That's because line numbers were stored in some efficient-to-read format; either three or four bytes, I forget which. So G.10: would expand to 5 (or six) bytes, more than you typed. This meant that the whole line would expand to more than 255 bytes, with amusing results. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ A friend is someone you call to help you | Work: dg@tao-group.com | move. A real friend is someone you call to | Play: dgiven@iname.com | help you move a body. +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: "Rob Nicholson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:15:12 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7k64a9$5td$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-73.carbon.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 929469577 6061 62.136.2.201 (15 Jun 1999 17:59:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 17:59:37 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail > down... A 6809-based machine would have been much more fun, and I can't I used a 6809 at university - some unnamed box running Flex. A wonderful processor with the unforgettable SEX instruction. Rob. ###### From: "Rob Nicholson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:16:22 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 7 Message-ID: <7k64ab$5td$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-73.carbon.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 929469579 6061 62.136.2.201 (15 Jun 1999 17:59:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 17:59:39 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail > Why, what did this do? Probably an error as the variable RINT wasn't defined. Rob ###### From: Kalle Olavi Niemitalo Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 15 Jun 1999 13:40:33 +0300 Organization: University of Oulu, Department of Electrical Engineering, Finland Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: stekt21.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 929443233 9151 130.231.60.61 (15 Jun 1999 10:40:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 10:40:33 GMT X-URL: http://stekt.oulu.fi/~tosi/ X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed1.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Aaron Crane writes: > example, one character (sorry, I don't remember the code) printed as the > five glyph cells `PRINT'[1] I have the manual here :) The code for PRINT is 245. The codes are sorted according to the keys which must be pressed: RUN comes from R and has code 247, SAVE comes from S and is 248. Yet another way to save a lookup table :) The manual (ZX81 BASIC PROGRAMMING) is very good; it lists such things as system variables (and which of them produce interesting effects when POKEd), machine language instructions and variable storage formats. It and the COMMODORE 64 PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE GUIDE are still the greatest manuals I know of -- they start from the basics but don't stop there. I can remember how I was a kid who looked at the mysterious Z80 assembler instruction table and wondered what those strange codes could mean. So I tried it -- I made a BASIC program which POKEd a dozen of interesting-looking codes such as "prefixes instructions using iy" and "jp nz,NN" in memory and ran them with USR. Surprisingly, the machine didn't crash. :) But when I LISTed the program again, it had all kinds of blinking cursors in it. I was never able to reproduce that effect. > [1] Actually, I think there was a space after the letters, which would make > the PRINT character six glyphs wide. It wasn't that simple. Keywords always had spaces around them; FOR N=1 TO 10 printed with a space at both sides of TO. But when keywords were adjacent, as in PRINT SIN RND, there was only one space between them. So the spaces weren't really part of the keywords. I can't remember how it changed when the cursors came in the play. ###### From: Paul Grayson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:40:20 +0100 Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation Lines: 70 Message-ID: <37669E14.3329D827@virgin.net> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <929341059.653330@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.72.28 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.3.6 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news7-gui.server.ntli.net!news-feed.ntli.net!shippo.virgin.net!nobody Don Stokes wrote: > Each key was labelled something like: > > GOSUB > .-------. > | ** | > | H # | > `-------' > SQR > > The '**' is the "raise to power" operator -- two '*'s didn't cut it -- and > could be got via the SIFT key. GOSUB is the keyword (ie what you get if > you hit H unshifted in K mode), SQR is the function (from F mode), and the > '#' is supposed to represent the "grey cell" graphic character that you > got in G mode. > > This is for the ZX81 -- I never had a speccy meself, but I recall it being > very similar. > The Spectrum keyboard was even more complex. The same key looks like the following:- SQR .-------. | ^ | | H | | GOSUB | `-------' CIRCLE In this case the ^ is an upwards pointing arrow - the Spectrum used this instead or a carat, although the underscore was still and underscore. The other changes in the ASCII table were the pound currency sign at decimal 96 and a copyright symbol at decimal 127. The original Spectrum only had 40 keys in total, 26 letters, 10 numbers, space, 'Enter', 'Caps Shift' and 'Symbol Shift'. The small character (or keyword) to the left of the letter was produced by pressing the key with symbol shift, caps shift producing the upper case character of course. Numerical keys worked differently with caps shift, producing control functions (cursor control, edit etc). There were five keyboard modes, each indicated by a different flashing letter as the cursor. 'L' - lower case text 'C' - upper case text, obtained by turning on Caps Lock (Shift 2). 'K' - keyword mode. Produced the main keyword on the key - occurred automatically at the start of a BASIC keyword or after THEN or a colon. 'E' - extended mode, obtained by pressing both shift keys simultaneously. Once in this mode, each key produced the keyword or symbol above the key unshifted or the keyword below the key with either shift key. Numerical keys worked differently, Symbol shift was required to produce a keyword, unshifted or with caps shift produced a sequence of 2 control characters for changing colours in listings. 'G' - graphic mode. Produced 2x2 block characters with the numerical keys, or user defined characters with 21 of the 26 letter keys. It was possible with this 40 key keyboard to produce over 220 distinct characters. Later models of the spectrum added more keys - these just acted like pressing 2 keys simultaneously. Even later models removed the majority of the keywords from the keys. -- R Tape loading error, 0:1 ###### From: martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:24:31 GMT Organization: The Seventh Heaven, Berlin, Germany Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3766b58c.3903187@news> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: volterra.home.ibert.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!home.ibert.com!news On 14 Jun 1999 14:00:27 -0600, Aaron Crane wrote: >It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both >storage costs and parsing costs for programs. [...] Not entirely like the early Commodore machines (2001, 8032) on which I lost part of my childhood (not that it did any harm, mind you ;-) ). Those things pre-parsed the basic input and stored it in a heavily compacted form in memory. Difference was, you got to type out your BASIC code inb full if you so chose (you could abbreviate non-ambiguous keywords by shifting the character that made it unique, like "pR" for "print"). Oh boy, it has been a while ... -- >> Please visit http://www.ibert.com/ for further information. << ----------------------------------------------------------------- Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Remember the heroes of Tiananmen Square, Beijing, P. R. of China! ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 15 Jun 1999 21:04:37 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7k6f55$21f$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929520063 nnrp-10:14310 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1999 21:04:37 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > speed. ISTR BBC BASIC had a similar "shorthand", but the shorthand > words were tokenised, so when you LISTed the program you saw the full > keyword. With L1 BASIC, you still saw the abbreviated keyword, complete > with '.'. I'm glad I wasn't just imagining this; the first BBC I worked on listed the program verbatim, abbreviations and all. I'd assumed it was a model B as it had 32KB (almost wrote MB... sign of the times) of core, but perhaps it was either an upgraded model A or a very early B. Chris. ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 16 Jun 1999 00:25:34 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 35 Message-ID: <929492733.372809@estelle.paradise.net.nz> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <37651c00.217116@news> <7k5g44$ldp@relay.lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: estelle.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 929492734 3874511 203.96.152.5 (16 Jun 1999 00:25:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1999 00:25:34 GMT Cache-Post-Path: estelle.paradise.net.nz!unknown@p16-cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don In article <7k5g44$ldp@relay.lsl.co.uk>, Ben Hutchings wrote: >: It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both >: storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the >: ZX81 at least) was that characters had variable-width representations >: (though the width was always an integer number of glyph cells). > > >This might sound like a stupid question, but... did the display >generator translate these character codes into keyword texts? I know >the ZX81 display generator is quite weird. No. Each character of the keyword was written individually into the display memory, which was separate from program memory. The weirdness with the ZX81 display was (a) that the display memory (at least for memory sizes < ~3.5K) was not spaced out the full width of the line but instead terminated with a NEWLINE character after the last character actually printed, and (b) the weird way the ZX81 firmware drove the screen itself with very little hardware support. The shuffling of the screen memory to insert characters into the display wasn't exactly fast. If you had enough memory, the display would go into a mode where all lines contained all 32 characters (spaces) plus a NEWLINE, so all display operations just overwrote spaces and didn't have to shuffle the display around. This broke when you executed a SCROLL command -- the display was scrolled and a "short" line inserted at the bottom. Note that scrolling was not automatic. Attempting to print off the bottom of the screen terminated your program with an error. If you were short of memory, their often wasn't enough memory to contain all your program on screen. The ZX81 jumped through all sorts of hoops to still be useful with zero memory left. -- don ###### From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:24:56 -0400 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <160619990124565956%scottm25@bigfoot.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: qYNL0pMlNFkTM/n1hALtmPOotKvaPvTpJ9fRXU77JzE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1999 05:25:46 GMT X-Face: "_p7hm!(`R/h:x.fFi's;ncuxZ`[YALx6^qjs>UnIu!^{.#Fcv'n3?\]tApx6 T%'@]NRNZ3Yy>|*}>.X_BP0KeiXDhQCx" User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!scottm25 In article , Kalle Olavi Niemitalo wrote: >The manual (ZX81 BASIC PROGRAMMING) is very good; it lists such things >as system variables (and which of them produce interesting effects >when POKEd), machine language instructions and variable storage >formats. It and the COMMODORE 64 PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE GUIDE are >still the greatest manuals I know of -- they start from the basics but >don't stop there. > Oooh, I remember going over every page of the Programmer's Reference Guide! I still have mine. All of the Commodore PRG's were great reading. From the VIC-20 to the C-128. Damn fine books! -- -- Scott Maxwell - scottm25 (at) bigfoot (dot) com My shrink? I just go to him for refills! ###### From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:33:40 -0400 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <160619990133407452%scottm25@bigfoot.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <3766b58c.3903187@news> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: jmx19EnCYOpM69yjF9/FwFFn2/xWKvvBAGITfzljTyQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1999 05:34:27 GMT X-Face: "_p7hm!(`R/h:x.fFi's;ncuxZ`[YALx6^qjs>UnIu!^{.#Fcv'n3?\]tApx6 T%'@]NRNZ3Yy>|*}>.X_BP0KeiXDhQCx" User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!scottm25 In article <3766b58c.3903187@news>, Martin Ibert wrote: >Not entirely like the early Commodore machines (2001, 8032) on which I >lost part of my childhood (not that it did any harm, mind you ;-) ). >Those things pre-parsed the basic input and stored it in a heavily >compacted form in memory. Difference was, you got to type out your >BASIC code inb full if you so chose (you could abbreviate >non-ambiguous keywords by shifting the character that made it unique, >like "pR" for "print"). > ? was for PRINT pR was for PRINT#. :-> >Oh boy, it has been a while ... > You mean you don't use those machines anymore? I still do. Well, the 128D anyway. -- -- Scott Maxwell - scottm25 (at) bigfoot (dot) com My shrink? I just go to him for refills! ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 16 Jun 1999 06:00:59 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7k7eir$che$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7k64a9$5td$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail Rob Nicholson wrote: :> down... A 6809-based machine would have been much more fun, and I can't : I used a 6809 at university - some unnamed box running Flex. A wonderful : processor with the unforgettable SEX instruction. Yabbut how often do you get to use that instruction? The only instruction on the 6809 I used less was the NOP (which I just about did not use, having an assembler handy). Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 16 Jun 1999 06:11:00 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7k7f5k$che$3@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail J. Chris Hausler wrote: : Following this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the Radio : Shack MC-10, a stripped down low cost version of the COCO and [deleted] : of fun with mine the year or so I played with it. Anyone else : remember it? Yes. It was one of those things that you could see was going to go down, especially if you already owned a CoCo and had many complaints about the useless keyboard it came with (this was the CoCo I with that horrible chiclet keyboard). Besides, with its usual marketing aplomb, they presented the MC-10 (in Australia, at least) at a time when the CoCo prices had become so low that the MC-10 discount was not terribly meaningful (maybe AU$ 100--200) and the Commodore 64 was king. Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 16 Jun 1999 08:41:01 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 48 Message-ID: <929522460.346337@estelle.paradise.net.nz> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7k6f55$21f$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: estelle.paradise.net.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 929522461 3913554 203.96.152.5 (16 Jun 1999 08:41:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1999 08:41:01 GMT Cache-Post-Path: estelle.paradise.net.nz!unknown@p16-cable.paradise.net.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3b4 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!don In article <7k6f55$21f$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, Chris Hedley wrote: >In article <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz>, > don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >> speed. ISTR BBC BASIC had a similar "shorthand", but the shorthand >> words were tokenised, so when you LISTed the program you saw the full >> keyword. With L1 BASIC, you still saw the abbreviated keyword, complete >> with '.'. > >I'm glad I wasn't just imagining this; the first BBC I worked on listed >the program verbatim, abbreviations and all. I'd assumed it was a model >B as it had 32KB (almost wrote MB... sign of the times) of core, but >perhaps it was either an upgraded model A or a very early B. Uh, By "L1 BASIC" I was referring to TRS-80 Level 1 BASIC, as found on the 4k Model 1 circa 1976 or thereabouts, not anything found on a BBC. I never used a BBC A or any of its predecessors. All the BBC BASICs I dealt with tokenised their shorthand and output the full keyword. What they *didn't* do was compress out spaces, thus, 10 PRINT "Hello" was tokenised as line-number space PRINT-token space quote 'H' 'e' 'l' 'l' 'o' quote EOL (or something like that), whereas 10PRINT"Hello" lacked the spaces. The keeping of spaces before the statement was particularly bothersome, because if you used LISTO to tell the thing to list programs with spaces and indentation, copying those spaces with the COPY key included the spaces and indentation, producing confusing listings and taking up more space -- you had to arrow up to the line number, COPY the number, arrow to the statement itself and then resume COPYing to avoid copying stray spaces. pdp11 BASIC-PLUS went a step further -- it compressed out all whitespace and comments. You could save the tokenised code as .BAC files, which the monitor would accept as RUNnable files. There was a (DECUS?) program that would decompile .BAC files back to .BAS so you could edit them. At one medium sized shop I was the guy they'd haul out to site with a pdp11, a terminal which no screen editor would talk to (I got pretty intimate with EDT's line mode), a stack of change requests and no source... -- don ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:51:51 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7k6f55$21f$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929536300 nnrp-04:9167 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article <7k6f55$21f$1@teabag.demon.co.uk>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: [...] > I'm glad I wasn't just imagining this; the first BBC I worked on listed > the program verbatim, abbreviations and all. I'd assumed it was a model > B as it had 32KB (almost wrote MB... sign of the times) of core, but > perhaps it was either an upgraded model A or a very early B. No BBC did that. Are you sure you weren't thinking of an Atom? BBC Basic was based heavily on Atom Basic, but Atom Basic was a lot more primitive and didn't do things like abbreviation expansion. BTW, BBC trivia: the OS CLI did abbreviations as well. So, *LOAD could be abbreviated to *L. However, *CAT had the shortest abbreviation of them all (CAT displayed the contents of the current file system): *. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Join the Illuminati and see the world... | Play: dgiven@iname.com | differently. +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: gaukrogi@aston.ac.uk (Rofi) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 16 Jun 1999 15:50:56 GMT Organization: Aston University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <7k8h50$6h8$1@whatsit.aston.ac.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7k6f55$21f$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bowling.aston.ac.uk User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.6 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!aston!gaukrogi On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:51:51 +0100, David Given wrote: > > >However, *CAT had the shortest abbreviation of them all (CAT displayed the >contents of the current file system): *. > Yep. When I was first using BBC, I _only_ new the command as '*.'. So of course when I came across the '*CATALOGUE' command in a manual I was confused until I realised that it could be abbreviated to '*CAT.' and then even shorter to '*.'. I used my Master the other day and had a interesting/confusing first minute. *cd - d'oh *ls - double d'oh - ah, that's right not at a unix prompt. Ok, so ... *cd - no already tried that one ! *dir - nope - no, not at a dos prompt either. erm ... *DIR foobar *. - of course !, that makes sense ;-) - success at last. Rofi -- Ifor Gaukroger, Rofi, Eve ... If ? :wq ( d'oh not in vi :-) ) ###### From: Harvey Taylor Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:01:56 -0700 Organization: Organization? What organization?! Lines: 31 Message-ID: <37683AF4.30A5@despam.pangea.ca> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <375b4dae.2016056@news.newsguy.com> <7k95sn$39f$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: dock06-00-23.ner.pangea.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: pumpkin.pangea.ca 929570577 18632 207.161.110.31 (16 Jun 1999 22:02:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@pangea.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1999 22:02:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.mbnet.mb.ca!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.pangea.ca!not-for-mail David Salvador Flores wrote: > [...] > Alas I never managed to save or load a single program on my tape deck. > Ah yes. There was a mod, a diode resistor bridge IIRC, which would clean up the signal & make it work a lot better. Then of course you could use the high speed mods which would load stuff _really fast_. The good thing about sitting around watching the screen roll was you had time to think about what you were programming. Anyway, the coolest thing I ever did with the ZX-81 was hang an Intel bubble memory module on it. Worked amazingly enough, but it was a hell of a way to learn what a filesystem is. ;-)) -het PS. Anyone remember Playing with Electricity? PPS. Newsgroup list trimmed. -- "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." - old Apple logo Harvey Taylor het@despam.pangea.ca ###### From: dsf3g@node13.unix.Virginia.EDU (David Salvador Flores) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,sci.sckeptic,alt.sci.amateur,alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 16 Jun 1999 21:44:55 GMT Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7k95sn$39f$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <375b4dae.2016056@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node13.unix.virginia.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!node13.unix.Virginia.EDU!dsf3g In article <375b4dae.2016056@news.newsguy.com>, wrote: >On Sat, 05 Jun 1999 18:21:47 GMT, Artemis > wrote: > > >>It would have been a better trick if you could have made the >>16K memory pack work worth a darn. Uncle Clive liked to >>boast he could do for a nickel waht any fool could do for >>a dollar. I think he use a nickel plated connector (sheesh!) >> >The 64K memory pack (bought as a kit and had someone build >it for me) worked ok, as long as it didn't come loose. Then >transferred the operating system to upper memory and could actually >write a decent program. Sort of. > >Barbara N. > >Reply to needhams@cvconline.com I bought the Memotech 64k memory pack. Worked great. Alas I never managed to save or load a single program on my tape deck. It was fun, though. -Dave ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:45:13 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 25 Message-ID: <37681AE9.4F2284D@plano.net> References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7k64a9$5td$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <7k7eir$che$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:39:10 GMT X-Trace: 929587150.820.4 NI6GKZCYD2924D12CC qube-02.us-ca.remarq.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.supernews.com.MISMATCH!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > > Rob Nicholson wrote: > :> down... A 6809-based machine would have been much more fun, and I can't > > : I used a 6809 at university - some unnamed box running Flex. A wonderful > : processor with the unforgettable SEX instruction. > > Yabbut how often do you get to use that instruction? The only instruction > on the 6809 I used less was the NOP (which I just about did not use, having > an assembler handy). > Well, if you have an 8-bit quantity in reg A (move it to reg B) or reg B, and you want to do a 16-bit addition with a number in memory, then you need to use the SEX instruction. For those of you who might have used an Elf, Elf II, or SuperElf, there was also a SEX instruction for the 1802. It sets the X "data counter" register to an immediate 4-bit value. This selects on of the 16 general registers to use as the data counter. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:48:02 GMT Organization: The Seventh Heaven, Berlin, Germany Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3768198f.6997503@news> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <3766b58c.3903187@news> <160619990133407452%scottm25@bigfoot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: volterra.home.ibert.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!home.ibert.com!news On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:33:40 -0400, Scott wrote: >? was for PRINT pR was for PRINT#. :-> True. Now that you mention it, I remember. As I said, ... >>Oh boy, it has been a while ... >> >You mean you don't use those machines anymore? I still do. Well, the >128D anyway. That's what I mean. I do know where to find a 2001 and a 8032 that were in working condition when we put them where they are now (which is in an attic approx 350 km from here), but that's about it. I've never had any serious experience using any of the "dedicated to home use" computers by CBM. I migrated (by virtue of my father buying the hardware) from the 8032 directly to the PC10 and later to the PC20. (Those were PC-compatible machines that were, for all I know, developed and built by the German CBM subsidiary in Braunschweig.) If I remember correctly, my father's PC10 unit had a three-digit serial number. -- >> Please visit http://www.ibert.com/ for further information. << ----------------------------------------------------------------- Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Remember the heroes of Tiananmen Square, Beijing, P. R. of China! ###### From: Joern Rehse Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 17 Jun 1999 15:30:41 GMT Organization: University of Karlsruhe Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7kb4b1$b7m$1@news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <3766b58c.3903187@news> <160619990133407452%scottm25@bigfoot.com> <3768198f.6997503@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: rzstud1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 929633441 11510 129.13.197.183 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/819)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail In alt.folklore.computers Martin Ibert wrote: > I remember correctly, my father's PC10 unit had a three-digit serial > number. I can't possibly let this "once in a life time me-too show-off oppertunity" pass. Here goes: My Commodore 64 has a three-digit serial number. Sorry, Joern ###### From: nailed_barnacleSPAMFREE@hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:54:06 GMT Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7kb95u$290g$2@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <375b4dae.2016056@news.newsguy.com> <7k95sn$39f$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <37683AF4.30A5@despam.pangea.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 929638398 74768 194.154.98.206 (17 Jun 1999 16:53:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1999 16:53:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert In article <37683AF4.30A5@despam.pangea.ca>, Harvey Taylor wrote: >David Salvador Flores wrote: >> [...] > >PS. > Anyone remember Playing with Electricity? > 101 Things A Boy Can Do With Electricity - at leat 50% of them potentially (sorry!) lethal... -- barnacle http://www.nbarnes.easynet.co.uk ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:44:27 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox.de> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <37651c00.217116@news> <3766b58c.3903187@news> <160619990133407452%scottm25@bigfoot.com> <3768198f.6997503@news> <7kb4b1$b7m$1@news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929637908 nnrp-03:24134 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article <7kb4b1$b7m$1@news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Joern Rehse writes: [...] > I can't possibly let this "once in a life time me-too > show-off oppertunity" pass. Here goes: > > My Commodore 64 has a three-digit serial number. Someone who works with my has an Acorn A500 with a *one* digit serial number. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao-group.com | Hail Eris! All hail Discordia! | Play: dgiven@iname.com | +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: "Rob Nicholson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:47:37 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7kbj1h$ogi$3@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7k64a9$5td$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <7k7eir$che$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-13.technetium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 929648497 25106 62.136.21.13 (17 Jun 1999 19:41:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1999 19:41:37 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail > : I used a 6809 at university - some unnamed box running Flex. A wonderful > : processor with the unforgettable SEX instruction. > > Yabbut how often do you get to use that instruction? The only instruction > on the 6809 I used less was the NOP (which I just about did not use, having > an assembler handy). Can't remember exactly what it did. Sign Extend? Takes an 8 bit value and fills the high byte with $00 or $FF depending on bit 7? Rob. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 17 Jun 1999 18:32:28 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7kbevs$1ov$1@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <375b4dae.2016056@news.newsguy.com> <7k95sn$39f$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <37683AF4.30A5@despam.pangea.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929646079 nnrp-11:6593 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1999 18:32:28 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!localhost!not-for-mail In article <37683AF4.30A5@despam.pangea.ca>, Harvey Taylor writes: > PS. > Anyone remember Playing with Electricity? Only in the literal sense. I particularly don't recommend 240V mains or petrol-engine ignition systems. I have no experience of three- phase (415V?) which is probably why I'm still here. Chris. ###### From: prs@gol.com (Peter Stephenson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Message-ID: <376cffa4.1716309@nnrp.gol.com> References: <7jtb2p$h0i$7@news1.cableinet.co.uk> <7k64a9$5td$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <7k7eir$che$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <37681AE9.4F2284D@plano.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 02:27:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.42.44 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 929759220 203.216.42.44 (Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:27:00 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:27:00 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!POSTED.nnrp.gol.com!not-for-mail I was always fond of "SID" and "SOD" on the 8085 (if my memory is correct). >> >Well, if you have an 8-bit quantity in reg A (move it to reg B) or reg B, and >you want to do a 16-bit addition with a number in memory, then you need to use >the SEX instruction. > >For those of you who might have used an Elf, Elf II, or SuperElf, there was also >a SEX instruction for the 1802. It sets the X "data counter" register to an >immediate 4-bit value. This selects on of the 16 general registers to use as >the data counter. ###### From: Shez Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:14:37 +0100 Organization: the Last Stop Cafe Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <929341059.653330@estelle.paradise.net.nz> Reply-To: Shez NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 929900572 nnrp-06:640 NO-IDENT xerez.demon.co.uk:193.237.22.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 4.01 Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!xerez.demon.co.uk!news Don Stokes of Daedalus Consulting writes: >Sinclair's BASIC interpreter had >a somewhat modeful program entry mode. You start in K (keyword) mode, >with an inverse-K cursor, which would let you enter a line number and/or >a keyword -- the keywords being marked on the keyboard. The keyword >associated with 'P' was PRINT, 'N' NEXT, F, FOR and so-on. (A lot of >ZX programmers used N as a FOR loop control variable, because to >terminate the loop, you just hit NN to get NEXT N.) .... >Note that keywords entered letter by letter were *never* understood. .... This was actually a very clever strategy, as not only did it save a lot of typing on what was a pretty yucky keyboard, but it also meant that BASIC programs were entered pre-tokenised, which both saved precious RAM and cut out the need for anything more than an extremely primitive input parser. -Shez. -- ____________________________________________________________ Did you know that the word 'gullible' isn't in Webster's Dictionary? ____________________________________________________________ Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe at Address any email replies to Shez (email to "news" is rejected). PGP key online at Shez.asc [1359 6963 B720 A4D6 DBB4 B6C5 BC9E 5FE2 6B7B 37A5] ###### From: matt@noggin.thenog.net (Matthew Gates) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 03:31:47 +0100 Organization: RemarQ http://www.remarQ.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> <7k11sp$87q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <929341059.653330@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <37669E14.3329D827@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.2.137.76 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: 929919334 FA6OEGRHS894CC302C uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.rhein-neckar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!noggin.thenog.net!nobody Of all the nasty error messages, "r tape loading error" had to be one of the most annoying. Always it would pop up _at the end_ of your 4 minute load sequence. Quick speccy digression: Was anyone else able to recognise which game was loading by the sound of the tape? I think I could probably still recognise Rebelstar even now... Hmm, how did it go...? geeeeeeeeeeeeeee gip // Program: [whatever] geeeeeeeeeeeeeee gipdilleipipeelipplipipiplip // loader geeeeeeeeeeeeeee gip // data section name (Bytes: [whatever]) geeeeeeeeeeeeeee gipipipipipipgipipipipipipgipip[etc] // This was the loading screen... :^). geeeeeeeeeeeeeee gip geeeeeeeeeeeeeee dillipgipipgippygipgip[etc] // program code (?) Pretty standard up to here. It was the last 15 seconds that seemed most characteristic of the program. I think I could easily recognise Booty too! Ultimate nostalga: Speccy MP3s - file under easy listening. I remember wishing I could make something like "Program: sdfjhdfvh" pop up by making the sounds with my mouth. I believe I tried it at one point, without sucess. What a sad child I must have been... ---------------------------------- Matt v0.24 Alpha (unstable) Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum ###### From: "Bryan Costin" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <375D131F.8743A9DC@combox <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:06:54 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.143.1.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 929931270 168.143.1.43 (Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:14:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:14:30 EDT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!iad-artgen.news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail J. Chris Hausler wrote in message ... >Following this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the Radio >Shack MC-10, a stripped down low cost version of the COCO and >thus sometimes called the POCO. It used a 6803 (a 6801 with its >internal rom disabled) instead of the 6809 in the COCO's. I >believe it was an attempt to attract the same market as the ZX-81 >(ie low cost). Although color, it was a little too little a >little too late and didn't last long on the market. I had a lot >of fun with mine the year or so I played with it. Anyone else >remember it? Yep. I remember seeing a couple on the "bargain table" that the local Radio Shack used to have in the back of the store. I was a Commodore owner at the time, but I had some experience with Tandy systems at school. It was a cute little thing, and for the price of $30 or so I almost bought one. Unfortunately I was a penniless schoolkid at the time and couldn't persuade my dad that I really needed another computer that was completely incompatible with everything I already owned. Oh, well. :-) -Bryan ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 21 Jun 1999 09:49:58 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7kl1s6$f3f$3@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7jbprm$chd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <928625598.646339@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7jm0q3$egr$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail Bryan Costin wrote: [about the MC-10] : Unfortunately I was a penniless schoolkid at the time and couldn't persuade : my dad that I really needed another computer that was completely : incompatible with everything I already owned. Oh, well. :-) It was also incompatible with everything else on the market, including all the other Tandy products. Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <7kl1s6$f3f$3@mirv.unsw.edu.au> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:37:48 GMT Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews2!uchinews!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > Bryan Costin wrote: > [about the MC-10] > : Unfortunately I was a penniless schoolkid at the time and couldn't persuade > : my dad that I really needed another computer that was completely > : incompatible with everything I already owned. Oh, well. :-) > > It was also incompatible with everything else on the market, including > all the other Tandy products. I think actually it was only *partially* incompatible with all the other Tandy products -- you could load a Color Computer BASIC program from tape on it, and it would load, but the keyword to token mapping was different so except for the constants and variable names it would be gibberish. 80 Micro or Color Computer Magazine published a program that would read in another program and fix the tokenization so you could move programs back and forth. eric ###### From: nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: 22 Jun 1999 07:18:15 GMT Organization: PrImE NuT (602)864-1005 <--- <--- <--- Lines: 49 Message-ID: <7kndbn$svm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <37651c00.217116@news> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr08.primenet.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@globalcenter.net X-Posted-By: nickb@206.165.6.208 (nickb) X-Word-Jumble: NGNUNUSLIIC X-Header-Virus: main() { mess_up_this_computer(); } X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail In article <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz>, Don Stokes wrote: >In article , >Aaron Crane wrote: >>It wasn't just to be "helpful" -- it was a clever way of reducing both >>storage costs and parsing costs for programs. The crucial point (on the > >Actually, almost every BASIC ever built did this, but most interpreted >multi-character strings and "tokenised" them down to single byte/word >codes taht could be interpreted faster. The only exception I can think >of off the top of my head (I'm sure there were others) is TRS-80 Level 1 >BASIC, which kept the whole line in memory, and you could use >abbreviations like "P." for "PRINT" to save space and improve execution >speed. ISTR BBC BASIC had a similar "shorthand", but the shorthand >words were tokenised, so when you LISTed the program you saw the full >keyword. With L1 BASIC, you still saw the abbreviated keyword, complete >with '.'. If you mean syntax checking, well CBM BASIC didn't quite do this. It would accept any line of input you gave it, only processing to collapse keywords into tokens. The most unheard-of part is that it didn't even deal with spaces; you could type 10 FORX=1TO9 and list it and it would say "10 FORX=1TO9". It would expand keywords, but it wouldn't muck with the spaces. This means that the spaces you and I and most programming language parsers take for granted, are a waste of memory and interpreting time on the Commodore 64. The Vic-20 used the same BASIC as the Commodore 64, and as such I remember typing in a 3D labyrinth program that said explicitly "don't add any unnecessary SPACEs if you want to run this on an unexpanded VIC". The irony was that this program had many memory-expensive POKES and PEEKs and even a kernel call or two that allowed it to run on both VIC-20s and Commodore 64s; very good programming design, that. But it didn't do any syntax checking until you ran the program. Which was why Commodore disk drives' directory listings could be stored in the format of a BASIC listing. Which was kind of backwards; sure, it meant that you could view a directory without any special software of any kind, but it also meant that it was very hard to get BASIC programs to read directories. And the tradeoff is hardly worth it since LOAD "$",8 isn't very intuitive and every long-time Commodore 64 has accidentally typed LOAD "$",8,1 and witnessed the weirdness that occurs. -- Nick Bensema UIN: 2135445 This ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ signature wastes What I did here would have been rebellious in 1993. --> bandwidth. ###### From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:34:13 +0100 Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <37651c00.217116@news> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7kndbn$svm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 930066718 nnrp-04:27671 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.mathworks.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!pearl.tao.co.uk!nobody In article <7kndbn$svm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, nickb@primenet.com (Nick S Bensema) writes: > If you mean syntax checking, well CBM BASIC didn't quite do this. > It would accept any line of input you gave it, only processing to > collapse keywords into tokens. The most unheard-of part is that > it didn't even deal with spaces; you could type 10 FORX=1TO9 and > list it and it would say "10 FORX=1TO9". It would expand keywords, > but it wouldn't muck with the spaces. This means that the spaces > you and I and most programming language parsers take for granted, > are a waste of memory and interpreting time on the Commodore 64. This was quite common in tokenising Basics. BBC Basic did the same trick. This: FOR X=A TO B would be stored as: X=A B If you typed: FORX=ATOB then this is what the tokeniser would see: X=ATOB It would think that the last four letters were a single variable name. You could get crunch programs that would go through a tokenised Basic program and remove spaces. Once tokenised, of course, this: X=AB is perfectly legal and valid. But don't list it, modify a line, and expect the tokeniser to make any sense of it. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ Everything is controlled by a small evil | Work: dg@tao-group.com | group to which, unfortunately, no one we | Play: dgiven@iname.com | know belongs. +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: Scott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Things you did with ZX-81's Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:40:35 -0400 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 41 Message-ID: <230619990040351200%scottm25@bigfoot.com> References: <1dsk9js.82vk321dj9i3cN@modem-100.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk> <37651c00.217116@news> <929446167.862411@estelle.paradise.net.nz> <7kndbn$svm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: G4ZBgppEcf8xgRfEiZBNmNq7elhx4aacbU57mEPF918= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 1999 04:40:54 GMT X-Face: "_p7hm!(`R/h:x.fFi's;ncuxZ`[YALx6^qjs>UnIu!^{.#Fcv'n3?\]tApx6 T%'@]NRNZ3Yy>|*}>.X_BP0KeiXDhQCx" User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!scottm25 In article <7kndbn$svm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Nick S Bensema wrote: >If you mean syntax checking, well CBM BASIC didn't quite do this. >It would accept any line of input you gave it, only processing to >collapse keywords into tokens. The most unheard-of part is that >it didn't even deal with spaces; you could type 10 FORX=1TO9 and >list it and it would say "10 FORX=1TO9". It would expand keywords, >but it wouldn't muck with the spaces. > That was very handy for sneaking past the line length limit in CBM BASIC V2 though. :-> Using abbreviations and no spaces you could get very long lines in there. You just couldn't edit them without retyping or it would chop off the end. >The Vic-20 used the same BASIC as the Commodore 64, and as such I >remember typing in a 3D labyrinth program that said explicitly >"don't add any unnecessary SPACEs if you want to run this on an >unexpanded VIC". The irony was that this program had many >memory-expensive POKES and PEEKs and even a kernel call or two that >allowed it to run on both VIC-20s and Commodore 64s; very good >programming design, that. > Thankfully enough of the low memory pointers were similar enough that you could translate programs fairly easily. Just sound and color were a problem. The KERNAL was the same on both machines. Same jump table. The labyrinth game probably used the character graphics which would simplify things even more. >And the tradeoff is hardly worth it since LOAD "$",8 isn't very >intuitive and every long-time Commodore 64 has accidentally typed LOAD >"$",8,1 and witnessed the weirdness that occurs. > Well if the listing wasn't too long or you caught it before it ran off of the screen you could hit C= and Shift to see the filenames without trashing your program. :-> -- -- Scott Maxwell - scottm25 (at) bigfoot (dot) com My shrink? I just go to him for refills!