From: Avi Drissman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: YKYBHTLW Message-ID: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.2.2 Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.110.144.102 X-Trace: news15.ispnews.com 924296134 198.110.144.102 (Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:55:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:55:34 EDT Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:55:28 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!hub1.ispnews.com!news15.ispnews.com.POSTED!drissman You know you've been hacking too long when... You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, you realize that your dream's destructor will take care of it for you so you don't have to worry. Avi (don't even ask...) ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 17 Apr 1999 02:40:43 -0400 Organization: -ENOENT Message-ID: <7f9adb$lpg@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail In article <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org>, Avi Drissman wrote: >You know you've been hacking too long when... > >You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are >chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you >don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, ... you have a dirty reboot and return to your senses just to find yourself being thoroughly fscked. -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 05:50:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.212.106.44 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 924328200 141.212.106.44 (Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:50:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:50:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit In article <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org>, Avi Drissman wrote: >You know you've been hacking too long when... > >You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are >chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you >don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, >you realize that your dream's destructor will take care of it for you >so you don't have to worry. Destructor? Destructor??? We don' need no steenking destructors! _Real_ Programmers write their dreams in C. And manage their own memSegmentation fault. Core dumped. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 09:49:51 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: d8.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 17 Apr 1999 11:33:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!d8 In article , ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) wrote: >In article <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org>, >Avi Drissman wrote: >>You know you've been hacking too long when... >> >>You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are >>chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you >>don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, >>you realize that your dream's destructor will take care of it for you >>so you don't have to worry. > >Destructor? Destructor??? We don' need no steenking destructors! >_Real_ Programmers write their dreams in C. Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in octal. There, that should start something :-)))) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) From: werme@nospam.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) Lines: 17 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:47:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.109.10 X-Trace: wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net 924353246 24.128.109.10 (Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:47:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:47:26 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.44.7!wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!werme jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >octal. Yeah - and learning the octal addition and multiply tables is 4X easier than the hex tables. Easier, actually, once you slice off the trivial roes and columns for 0 and 1. >There, that should start something :-)))) And, of course, the console switches on a KA10 make a wonder binary abacus. I'd often copy an address from the lights to the switches, add in the appropriate offset, and press Examine This to see the data I needed. -- Ric Werme | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme werme@mediaone.net | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:53:33 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7fa72o$nq5$1@news.igs.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye06.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 924360600 24389 216.58.117.134 (17 Apr 1999 14:50:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 1999 14:50:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Careful now. I got into an infinite loop on acid in 1967 and it took me until 1983 to get out ... Sergej Roytman wrote in message ... >In article <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org>, >Avi Drissman wrote: >>You know you've been hacking too long when... >> >>You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are >>chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you >>don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, >>you realize that your dream's destructor will take care of it for you >>so you don't have to worry. > >Destructor? Destructor??? We don' need no steenking destructors! >_Real_ Programmers write their dreams in C. And manage their own memSegmentation fault. Core dumped. ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:55:06 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7fa75j$o2s$1@news.igs.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye06.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 924360691 24668 216.58.117.134 (17 Apr 1999 14:51:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 1999 14:51:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <7f9rhv$al3 > >Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >octal. > Bit of eight! Bits of eight! Aaawwk!! ###### From: jt5555@epix.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:34:13 -0400 Organization: epix Internet Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: itha-125ppp109.epix.net X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.60 b60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-xfer.epix.net!news1.epix.net!epix-news In , on 04/17/99 at 05:50 AM, ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) said: >_Real_ Programmers write their dreams in C. And manage their own >memSegmentation fault. Core dumped. wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. -- Julian Thomas: jt 5555 at epix dot net http://home.epix.net/~jt remove numerics for email Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! -- -- ... Perhaps you should flee in terror. Yes, I think that would be best. ###### From: fbi.gov@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:36:47 -0400 Organization: Orion Computer Consulting Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.13.14 X-Server-Date: 17 Apr 1999 15:36:25 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!fbi.gov In article <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) wrote: > >In article <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org>, > >Avi Drissman wrote: > >>You know you've been hacking too long when... > >> > >>You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are > >>chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you > >>don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, > >>you realize that your dream's destructor will take care of it for you > >>so you don't have to worry. > > > >Destructor? Destructor??? We don' need no steenking destructors! > >_Real_ Programmers write their dreams in C. > > Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in > octal. I'm gonna jump in here just to say "Real Programmers us COPY CON." -- Joe -- Joe Thompson | http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ fbi.gov@orion-com.com | PGP key: Finger joe-jobs@mindspring.com AFU Axolotl of Scorn | 0- He-Who-Grinds-the-Unworthy "I happened during one of the great Rebecca[0] outbreaks..." -- Cael ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 13:17:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7fa7n9$dnv$4@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d10.dial-16.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 17 Apr 1999 15:00:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d10 In article , werme@nospam.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >>octal. > >Yeah - and learning the octal addition and multiply tables is 4X easier >than the hex tables. Easier, actually, once you slice off the trivial >roes and columns for 0 and 1. > >>There, that should start something :-)))) > >And, of course, the console switches on a KA10 make a wonder binary >abacus. I'd often copy an address from the lights to the switches, add >in the appropriate offset, and press Examine This to see the data >I needed. Yup. One of the most expensive calculators I ever met. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.d8.82 X-Server-Date: 17 Apr 1999 18:57:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!hshubs In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian Thomas) wrote: >wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? They need an -interface-?? -- Howard S Shubs The Denim Adept ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:40:13 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7farcj$5hs$1@news.igs.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye0d.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 924381395 5692 216.58.117.141 (17 Apr 1999 20:36:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 1999 20:36:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!130.185.14.36!torn!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Joe Thompson wrote in message ... >I'm gonna jump in here just to say "Real Programmers us COPY CON." -- Joe >-- yes, but do you first start the editor or do you first start the compiler? con:>compiler>ptp1: ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:16:38 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7fb4ht$blg$1@news.igs.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fa75j$o2s$1@news.igs.net> <371bfa76.16739349@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye04.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 924390781 11952 216.58.117.132 (17 Apr 1999 23:13:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 1999 23:13:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail If god had meant us to think octal, he would not have given us 4 fingers and a parity thumb on each hand. Luc Van der Veken wrote in message <371bfa76.16739349@news.uunet.be>... >alt.folklore.computers << "Donald Tees" >(Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:55:06 -0400); > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <7f9rhv$al3 >> > >> >Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >> >octal. >> > >> >> Bit of eight! Bits of eight! Aaawwk!! > >Awk in octal? I thought you used ASCII for that. > ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:20:02 GMT Organization: . Lines: 13 Message-ID: <371bfa76.16739349@news.uunet.be> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fa75j$o2s$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-146-140.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!korova.insync.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail alt.folklore.computers << "Donald Tees" (Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:55:06 -0400); > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <7f9rhv$al3 > > > >Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in > >octal. > > > > Bit of eight! Bits of eight! Aaawwk!! Awk in octal? I thought you used ASCII for that. ###### From: "Ambrose, Joseph" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:11:55 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.19.26 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 924404993 3934 12.79.19.26 (18 Apr 1999 03:09:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 1999 03:09:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail wrote in message news:7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net... > > Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in > octal. > > There, that should start something :-)))) Close. REAL programmers use the console switches. ( Just my 31(8) cents DEPOSIT -- Joseph Ambrose NT Network Administrator / Open VMS System Manager The Conference Board ambrose@conference-board.org ICQ# 13652219 ###### From: "Ambrose, Joseph" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:11:55 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.19.26 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 924404993 3934 12.79.19.26 (18 Apr 1999 03:09:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 1999 03:09:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail wrote in message news:7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net... > > Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in > octal. > > There, that should start something :-)))) Close. REAL programmers use the console switches. ( Just my 31(8) cents DEPOSIT -- Joseph Ambrose NT Network Administrator / Open VMS System Manager The Conference Board ambrose@conference-board.org ICQ# 13652219 ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:20:54 -0700 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 17 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <37195DA6.381A69ED@jkmicro.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.iadfw.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Apr 17 23:15:54 1999 NNTP-Posting-Host: !c>h#1k-VrZZg[?&7g-9(LqN+ (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: "Ambrose, Joseph" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.he.net!worldfeed.news.gte.net!news.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Ambrose, Joseph wrote: > wrote in message news:7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net... > > > > Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in > > octal. > > > > There, that should start something :-)))) > > Close. REAL programmers use the console switches. Or microcode ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 09:54:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7fcgm6$kod$1@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.dial-14.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 18 Apr 1999 11:46:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d1 In article <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Ambrose, Joseph" wrote: > > wrote in message news:7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net... >> >> Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >> octal. >> >> There, that should start something :-)))) > > >Close. REAL programmers use the console switches. > >( Just my 31(8) cents DEPOSIT > Only in the beginning (unless they're monitor debuggers). If one's goal is to get work done, they use Macro-10. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:33:12 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.d1.7a X-Server-Date: 18 Apr 1999 16:29:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!hshubs In article <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com>, Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com wrote: >On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500, hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) >wrote: >>In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian >>Thomas) wrote: >>>wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. >>What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? >>They need an -interface-?? >At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! >Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> hah! Real Programmers do it with large magnets. -- Howard S Shubs The Denim Adept ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:20:55 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7fd7jj$i24$1@news.igs.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye07.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 924459443 18500 216.58.117.135 (18 Apr 1999 18:17:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 1999 18:17:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.idt.net!howland.erols.net!torn!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Howard S Shubs wrote in message ... >hah! Real Programmers do it with large magnets. Naw. Whole a slew of little round ones. ###### From: Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com (Brian Inglis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:32:06 GMT Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com Message-ID: <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.146.154 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.146.154 X-Trace: 18 Apr 1999 09:32:07 -0700, 207.148.146.154 Lines: 26 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.nntp.acc.ca!feed.nntp.acc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.146.154 On Sat, 17 Apr 99 09:49:51 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) wrote: >>In article <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org>, >>Avi Drissman wrote: >>>You know you've been hacking too long when... >>>You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are >>>chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you >>>don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment of panic, >>>you realize that your dream's destructor will take care of it for you >>>so you don't have to worry. >>Destructor? Destructor??? We don' need no steenking destructors! >>_Real_ Programmers write their dreams in C. >Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >octal. >There, that should start something :-)))) >/BAH >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. Anyone remember having bootstrap toggle races: on PDP-11s with no boot ROM (mainly -10s, some -40s) or not the correct ROM for the device you wanted to boot, you had to toggle in the code to get the machine going: programmers would race against the clock or each other to see who could get it in correctly fastest. Was this popular on any other machines: PDP-10s, etc? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis. Calgary, Alberta, Canada (Brian dot Inglis at CADvision dot com) ###### From: Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com (Brian Inglis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:35:09 GMT Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com Message-ID: <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.146.154 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.148.146.154 X-Trace: 18 Apr 1999 09:35:10 -0700, 207.148.146.154 Lines: 10 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.50.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!news.cadvision.com!207.148.146.154 On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500, hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) wrote: >In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian >Thomas) wrote: >>wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. >What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? >They need an -interface-?? At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis. Calgary, Alberta, Canada (Brian dot Inglis at CADvision dot com) ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 18 Apr 1999 17:21:21 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.42 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.1-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Howard S Shubs wrote: : In article <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com>, : Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com wrote: :>On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500, hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) :>wrote: :>>In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian :>>Thomas) wrote: :>>>wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. :>>What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? :>>They need an -interface-?? :>At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! :>Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> : hah! Real Programmers do it with large magnets. Real computers don't have magnetic media. David "plugboards!" Scheidt -- dscheidt@enteract.com But I simply can't find it anywhere in me to imagine that someone might want to stick sharp pasta spikes down into his penis. -D.M. Procida ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.demon.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 18 Apr 1999 17:23:12 GMT Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 924458068 nnrp-12:28492 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail In article , hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) writes: >>At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! >>Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> > > hah! Real Programmers do it with large magnets. Real Programmers use a screwdriver, a soldering iron, a mallet and some sticky tape. Some CAT-5 and a scalpel may also be useful. It's also useful to have a rubbish bin handy for those pesky bits that won't quite fit back in. "Did I ever mention the time I slammed the door of a minicomputer and caught one of the SCSI cables in it, you know the really expensive ones with twisted-pair wiring and all? And muggins here had to fix the thing using an iron and my teeth. The amazing thing was is still worked..." Chris. ###### From: hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:18:18 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd7jj$i24$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.d2.15 X-Server-Date: 19 Apr 1999 00:14:29 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!hshubs In article <7fd7jj$i24$1@news.igs.net>, "Donald Tees" wrote: >Naw. Whole a slew of little round ones. That's if yer gonna save your work in some of that sissy "core". Dump Core! Y'know, I once said that to a nuclear engineer I know. Didn't mean quite the same thing. -- Howard S Shubs The Denim Adept ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:54:10 GMT Organization: . Message-ID: <371a4cd9.20754363@news.uunet.be> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-99-211.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail alt.folklore.computers << David Scheidt (18 Apr 1999 17:21:21 GMT); > Real computers don't have magnetic media. The kind with mercury delay lines doesn't. The kinds with magnetic drum or core memory do. ###### From: hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:30:03 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.d7.e5 X-Server-Date: 19 Apr 1999 04:26:14 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!hshubs In article <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos wrote: >Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. It does if you get good cables. He's talking about the 25 pairs inside the 50-pin cable. -- Howard S Shubs The Denim Adept ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 01:50:08 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7fe24g$5ac$1@eve.enteract.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.40 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.1-STABLE (i386)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!not-for-mail Ant?nio Vasconcelos wrote: : Chris Hedley wrote: :> "Did I ever mention the time I slammed the door of a minicomputer :> and caught one of the SCSI cables in it, you know the really expensive :> ones with twisted-pair wiring and all? And muggins here had to fix :> the thing using an iron and my teeth. The amazing thing was is still :> worked..." : Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. Slice the outer casing on a SCSI cable sometime. The good ones have twisted pairs. -- David Scheidt Large fibreglass fruits are much the same the world over. -- Vicki Parslow Stafford ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:11:13 +0100 Organization: EUnet Portugal customers news server Lines: 30 Message-ID: <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.126.5.145 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Portugal.EU.net!not-for-mail David Scheidt wrote: > > Howard S Shubs wrote: > : In article <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com>, > : Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com wrote: > > :>On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500, hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) > :>wrote: > :>>In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian > :>>Thomas) wrote: > :>>>wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. > :>>What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? > :>>They need an -interface-?? > :>At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! > :>Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> > : hah! Real Programmers do it with large magnets. > > Real computers don't have magnetic media. Yes, Real Programmers do it with a narrow strip of paper and something to punch holes in it... The XXI century (real) programmer, should be ready to type: 'ed a.out'... OTOH, YKYBHTLW you begin thinking that the old saying abouut idiots and programs are a trueism (if you write a program that can be used by every idiot, only idiots will use it)... ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:15:12 +0100 Organization: EUnet Portugal customers news server Lines: 11 Message-ID: <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.126.5.145 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!Portugal.EU.net!not-for-mail Chris Hedley wrote: > "Did I ever mention the time I slammed the door of a minicomputer > and caught one of the SCSI cables in it, you know the really expensive > ones with twisted-pair wiring and all? And muggins here had to fix > the thing using an iron and my teeth. The amazing thing was is still > worked..." Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 05:23:09 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7feejt$8ia$1@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail Jim Stewart wrote: : Ambrose, Joseph wrote: :> wrote in message news:7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net... :> > :> > Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in :> > octal. :> > :> > There, that should start something :-)))) :> :> Close. REAL programmers use the console switches. : Or microcode I thought that was the software engineer's domain? Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 05:25:26 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail Brian Inglis wrote: : Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? GD&R, Kin Hoong ###### Date: 19 Apr 99 13:13:48 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> Message-ID: <487.778T2441T7936178@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com X-Trace: 19 Apr 1999 17:08:02 -0800, news.skybus.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-central.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.126 In article <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> vasco@mail.eunet.pt (António Vasconcelos) writes: >The XXI century (real) programmer, should be ready to type: 'ed >a.out'... If he's really good, he'll type "cat >a.out". Actually, I think there was a little MS-DOS .COM file that someone designed to contain only printable ASCII characters. I can't remember what handy little function it did... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### Message-ID: <371BDBD2.4216@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:43:46 -0800 From: Sam Yorko X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fg5fi$r10$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: exosecure-symbol.psd.symbol.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: exosecure-symbol.psd.symbol.com Organization: news://newsread.exodus.net : Crossing the Invisible Line Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newspeer1.nac.net!WCG!kiowa.exodus.net!207.82.39.214.MISMATCH!newsread.exodus.net!exosecure-symbol.psd.symbol.com Danny Lingman wrote: > > Wimp. Get thee a Soldering Iron and some wire, and go to it. - hardwiring - the one true way to program. You know, after a hard day's work shifting the posts on the programming drum of the Analytic Engine, it's comments like yours that really irk me. Sam ###### From: lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 20:59:30 GMT Organization: Northern Telecom Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7fg5fi$r10$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars05r.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!torn!qcarh002.nortelnetworks.com!bcarh189.ca.nortel.com!zcarh46f.bnr.ca!bcarh8ac.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!wcars05r.ca.nortel.com!lingman In article <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com>, Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com (Brian Inglis) writes: |> On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500, hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) |> wrote: |> >In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian |> >Thomas) wrote: |> >>wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. |> >What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? |> >They need an -interface-?? |> At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! |> Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> Wimp. Get thee a Soldering Iron and some wire, and go to it. - hardwiring - the one true way to program. Dan Lingman Nortel Networks. Nortel Networks != Me. Not even close. ###### From: lingman@wcars05r.ca.nortel.com (Danny Lingman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 21:01:18 GMT Organization: Northern Telecom Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7fg5iu$r10$2@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd7jj$i24$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wcars05r.ca.nortel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!torn!qcarh002.nortelnetworks.com!bcarh189.ca.nortel.com!zcarh46f.bnr.ca!bcarh8ac.ca.nortel.com!bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com!wcars05r.ca.nortel.com!lingman In article <7fd7jj$i24$1@news.igs.net>, "Donald Tees" writes: |> |> Howard S Shubs wrote in message ... |> |> >hah! Real Programmers do it with large magnets. |> |> |> Naw. Whole a slew of little round ones. And program them by rubbing them on a cat - clockwise for ones, counter clockwise for zeros. ###### From: "Harold Rabbie" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:31:29 -0700 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7fh14d$sbn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.207.36 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 924583885 29047 12.72.207.36 (20 Apr 1999 04:51:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Apr 1999 04:51:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Ambrose, Joseph wrote in message <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>... > > wrote in message news:7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net... >> >> Those are wannabe programmers. Real programmers write in >> octal. >> >> There, that should start something :-)))) > > >Close. REAL programmers use the console switches. > >( Just my 31(8) cents DEPOSIT > Wimps! Real programmers use a blank piece of paper tape and a 7-pin punch block. Or a diode array on a UNIBUS board, and a pair of wire cutters.... Harold Rabbie Saratoga, CA ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.com Organization: none References: <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> <487.778T2441T7936178@sky.bus.com> From: nobody@no.net X-No-Archive: yes Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.112.217.41 Message-ID: <371bd90d.0@newsfeed.one.net> Date: 19 Apr 1999 21:31:57 -0400 X-Trace: 19 Apr 1999 21:31:57 -0400, 206.112.217.41 Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!dca1-feed1.news.digex.net!digex!newsfeed.one.net!206.112.217.41 In article <487.778T2441T7936178@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >In article <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> vasco@mail.eunet.pt >(António Vasconcelos) writes: > >>The XXI century (real) programmer, should be ready to type: 'ed >>a.out'... >If he's really good, he'll type "cat >a.out". The programmer of century 0x15 writes ELFs, not a.outs. >Actually, I think there was a little MS-DOS .COM file that >someone designed to contain only printable ASCII characters. >I can't remember what handy little function it did... It was a UU-decoder. This was way back when 'average' PC users were starting to get on the Net with services like AOL, Prodigy, and Compuserve, and the mailreaders for those services had no ability to decode attachments from the Internet. Users would send e-mail to some mail server, with a line like "send /pub/uudecode/uudecode.com", and the server would respond with a message containing the uu-decoder. Users were instructed to paste the message into a text editor and save the text (without headers, of course) to the file UUDECODE.COM. I guess the reason they did it this way was because they presumed that there were many users out there with access only to e-mail. -- If a man commits sedition in the middle of the woods, and there are no cops around to arrest him, is he still a criminal? ###### From: nospam@zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 22:49:51 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7fgbuf$3hd$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> Reply-To: (Replace nobody with werme) nobody@zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: alingo.zk3.dec.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!lead.zk3.dec.com!crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG writes: >Brian Inglis wrote: >: Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. >Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? Twice, the bank spent 8 cents on a stamp to send me a notice of a corrected deposit. For a while I simple quit adding checks and told the teller she'd save herself some time doing the addition for me. -Ric -- <> Eric (Ric) Werme <> The above is unlikely to contain <> <> ROT-13 addresses: <> official claims or policies of <> <> <> Compaq Computer Corp. <> <> <> http://www.cyberportal.net/werme <> ###### From: hnsngr@sirius.com (Ron Hunsinger) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:03:47 -0700 Organization: ErsteSoft Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7fh14d$sbn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.134.244.203 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:03:12 GMT X-Trace: 924588192.734.60 S0YUSD2PSF4CBCD86C usenet1.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!hnsngr In article <7fh14d$sbn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Harold Rabbie" wrote: > Wimps! Real programmers use a blank piece of paper tape and a 7-pin punch > block. Close. A blank piece of paper tape and a bent paper clip. (I actually did this once. We were given a Burroughs TC500, which had a tape reader and tape punch attached (and a keyboard), but the punch was strictly under program control and programs could be loaded only from the tape reader and we had no prepunched tapes at all. The first tape I made was a tape duplicator, which I used to duplicate itself, so I'd have a version with nice round holes instead of the ragged holes the paper clip made.) Of course, had I been a real programmer, I'd have taken the tape reader apart and simulated reading a tape by shorting wires together in the right sequence. And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape generator, which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something useful. Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. -Ron Hunsinger ###### From: nospam@zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 19 Apr 1999 23:07:47 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> Reply-To: (Replace nobody with werme) nobody@zk3.dec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: alingo.zk3.dec.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!not-for-mail Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com (Brian Inglis) writes: >Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. >Anyone remember having bootstrap toggle races: on PDP-11s with no boot ROM >(mainly -10s, some -40s) or not the correct ROM for the device you wanted to >boot, you had to toggle in the code to get the machine going: programmers would >race against the clock or each other to see who could get it in correctly >fastest. >Was this popular on any other machines: PDP-10s, etc? PDP-10s had a builtin bootstrap mechanism. Set the device number, press the boot button (name?) and the system would read one word from the perihperal. That got put in AC0 and was an IOWD (negative word count in left half,,address in right half). It would read more word until the IOWD was exhausted and start executing at the last instruction loaded. No boot code necessary. Yippee! The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. Booting from disk entailed booting from DECtape and typing the name of the disk boot program. So I wrote a program to put the disk boot program on the boot blocks (+1) of the DECtape and patch the directory to mark the extra block as in use. Push boot, hit enter, and the system would be on its way up. Actually, the IOWD was negative count,,address-1. -Ric -- <> Eric (Ric) Werme <> The above is unlikely to contain <> <> ROT-13 addresses: <> official claims or policies of <> <> <> Compaq Computer Corp. <> <> <> http://www.cyberportal.net/werme <> ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> Sender: stuart@nomad X-Newsreader: SimpleNews-0.1 linux/i586 Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:44:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.194.193 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:44:55 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl!upstream.atl!news1.mco.POSTED!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: >Brian Inglis wrote: >: Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with >switches. > >Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? Well maybe not octal, but I do balance mine with my abacus. It's about the only way I manage to keep in practice. By the way the Chinese form of the abacus would make a good hex calculator. Someday I'll have to write up the operational rules... Brian L. Stuart ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:34:58 +0100 Organization: EUnet Portugal customers news server Lines: 13 Message-ID: <371C3C32.D38D6456@mail.eunet.pt> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.126.5.76 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Portugal.EU.net!not-for-mail Howard S Shubs wrote: > > In article <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= > Vasconcelos wrote: > > >Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. > > It does if you get good cables. He's talking about the 25 pairs inside > the 50-pin cable. Ops, ok. You're right, I was thinking about the internal flat cable. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:37:52 +0100 Organization: EUnet Portugal customers news server Lines: 11 Message-ID: <371C3CE0.104AAAFE@mail.eunet.pt> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.126.5.76 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.amsterdam.nl.net!sun4nl!EU.net!Portugal.EU.net!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > > Brian Inglis wrote: > : Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. > > Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? I still prefere doing the tax papers using roman numerals ... (that's a classic) 8-) ###### From: pm215@watchdragon.demon.co.uk (Peter Maydell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 20 Apr 1999 10:27:13 +0100 Organization: dragon cluster Message-ID: <7fhh9h$86i$1@watchdragon.demon.co.uk> References: <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> Reply-To: pmaydell@chiark.greenend.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: watchdragon.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: watchdragon.demon.co.uk:158.152.121.201 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 924635618 nnrp-12:23366 NO-IDENT watchdragon.demon.co.uk:158.152.121.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!watchdragon.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail wrote: >Well maybe not octal, but I do balance mine with my abacus. >It's about the only way I manage to keep in practice. By >the way the Chinese form of the abacus would make a good >hex calculator. Someday I'll have to write up the operational >rules... That's the one with two beads above the bar and five below, right? You can use that for octal, too, I think. [not that I've ever actually used an abacus, as opposed to playing with the beads :->] Decimal: use as normal Hex: like decimal, but a column can show up to 15 with all the beads in the 'up' position [2*10 + 5], so perfect for hex. Octal: just treat all 7 beads in the column as 'unit' beads. I think you could do hex->decimal conversion by just propagating up the excess from each column until it was valid for decimal, but I'm not sure about the other way... Peter Maydell ###### From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 20 Apr 1999 16:57:26 +0800 Organization: The University of Western Australia Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7fhfhm$q46$1@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> References: <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> <487.778T2441T7936178@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #118 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >Actually, I think there was a little MS-DOS .COM file that >someone designed to contain only printable ASCII characters. >I can't remember what handy little function it did... I remember once writing a program for the Mac that would convert files containing only ASCII characters to binary. The program itself contained only ASCII characters. We devised a cunning scheme to make it immune to CR/LF translations (newlines could be represented as CR, LF, or CR/LF and it would still work), but never implemented it. Life gets exciting when your code can change length by less than the instruction width. Unfortunately, it required self-modifying code, and we weren't able to include cache-flushing instructions. But this was years ago, when you could still find Macs with no cache. John West ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 20 Apr 1999 18:33:59 GMT Message-ID: <7fihan$3sl$4@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-042.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 924633239 3989 194.247.41.52 (20 Apr 1999 18:33:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Apr 1999 18:33:59 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail On 1999-04-16 drissman@acm.org said: :You know you've been hacking too long when... :You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics :are chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make :sure you don't memory leak, or blow the cache. Then, after a moment :of panic, you realize that your dream's destructor will take care :of it for you so you don't have to worry. I wouldn't mind that. I dream Access Basic. No other language, just Access Basic. I have to work with it. It says something. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing what it says is "time to call the samaritans" ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 20 Apr 1999 18:34:02 GMT Message-ID: <7fihaq$3sl$6@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-042.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 924633242 3989 194.247.41.52 (20 Apr 1999 18:34:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Apr 1999 18:34:02 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail On 1999-04-19 khchung@maths.unsw.edu.au said: :Brian Inglis wrote: :: Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in :with switches. :Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? The first cheque for $xx9.99 ought to alter your to your error. Of course, for those people who balance it in hex because of the $ sign... ;> -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:50:57 GMT Organization: . Lines: 46 Message-ID: <371eb03a.2430685@news.uunet.be> References: <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4ah$d4h$1@eve.enteract.com> <371A82B1.70323B0E@mail.eunet.pt> <487.778T2441T7936178@sky.bus.com> <371bd90d.0@newsfeed.one.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-79-159.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!eyre.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail alt.folklore.computers << nobody@no.net(19 Apr 1999 21:31:57 -0400); > In article <487.778T2441T7936178@sky.bus.com>, > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > >Actually, I think there was a little MS-DOS .COM file that > >someone designed to contain only printable ASCII characters. > >I can't remember what handy little function it did... > > It was a UU-decoder. This was way back when 'average' PC users were > starting to get on the Net with services like AOL, Prodigy, and > Compuserve, and the mailreaders for those services had no ability to > decode attachments from the Internet. I do remember a "hello world" program that used only ASCII characters, and a sample virus signature that would actually run as a program *and* be flagged by most virus detectors. The downloadable UUdecoder OTOH was (AFAIR) a debug script containing the entire program in assembler format. Kind alike this one: =========== snip start a 100 mov ah,9 mov dx,10a int 21 int 20 e 10a 48 65 6C 6C 6F 20 57 6F 72 6C 64 24 n nop.com r cx 16 w q ========== snip end. Leave the blank lines intact... You would save it to a file and assemble it through a command line like debug < nop.asm BTW, the example I included still assembles and runs fine under Win2000 (NT 5) beta. Just tested :-) ###### From: sohara@mardil.elsevier.nl (Steve O'Hara Smith) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 20 Apr 1999 15:20:03 GMT Organization: Elsevier Science BV, Amsterdam, The Netherlands Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7fi5v3$ceq$1@ns.elsevier.nl> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mardil.elsevier.nl X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!surfnet.nl!elsevier.nl!mardil!sohara Kin Hoong CHUNG (khchung@maths.unsw.edu.au) wrote: : Brian Inglis wrote: : : Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. : Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? Dunno, but TMS used to do their accounts in reverse duodenary (may still do so FAIK). ###### Sender: From: Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.5 (i586)) NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.153.139.178 Message-ID: <371d2dee@news.usenetserver.com> Date: 20 Apr 1999 21:46:22 -0400 X-Trace: 20 Apr 1999 21:46:22 -0400, 139.153.139.178 X-Authenticated-User: Thearm Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.26.41!remarQ-easT!remarQ60!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.usenetserver.com!not-for-mail Ant?nio Vasconcelos wrote: : Chris Hedley wrote: :> "Did I ever mention the time I slammed the door of a minicomputer :> and caught one of the SCSI cables in it, you know the really expensive :> ones with twisted-pair wiring and all? And muggins here had to fix :> the thing using an iron and my teeth. The amazing thing was is still :> worked..." : Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. Differential SCSI did, by default I thought. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan From: sarr@qix.rs.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:42:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.211.63.87 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 924702153 141.211.63.87 (Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:42:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:42:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!sarr In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: > >PDP-10s had a builtin bootstrap mechanism. Set the device number, press >the boot button (name?) and the system would read one word from the >perihperal. That got put in AC0 and was an IOWD (negative word count in >left half,,address in right half). It would read more word until the >IOWD was exhausted and start executing at the last instruction loaded. > >No boot code necessary. Yippee! Of course this was implemented, on the KA at least, by having a 16 word ROM that hid at address 0 and got jumped to when you pushed the button, containing the boot code. -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr@umich.edu voice: +1 734 764 0253 home: +1 734 665 9591 ITD, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:43:18 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 38 Message-ID: <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 22 Apr 1999 01:43:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail "Sarr J. Blumson" wrote: > > In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, > Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: > > > >PDP-10s had a builtin bootstrap mechanism. Set the device number, > >press the boot button (name?) READIN > >and the system would read one word from the perihperal DATAI > >That got put in AC0 and was an IOWD (negative word count in > >left half,,address in right half). It would read more word[S] until > >the IOWD was exhausted BLKI > >and start executing at the last instruction loaded. > >No boot code necessary. Yippee! > > Of course this was implemented, on the KA at least, by having a 16 > word ROM that hid at address 0 and got jumped to when you pushed the > button, containing the boot code. That's news to me. All the -10s I've seen (real ones at least -- no microcode :-) ) have this implemented as a separate time-state path. The KA _may_ have had a small ROM, but I don't recall one. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: "Harold Rabbie" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:43:52 -0700 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7fmd9j$g8m$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.56.211 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 924760179 16662 12.72.56.211 (22 Apr 1999 05:49:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 1999 05:49:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnslave2!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote in message <7feeo6$8ia$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au>... >Brian Inglis wrote: >: Isn't it: Real programmers think in octal. They toggle code in with switches. > >Yabbut what happens if you balanced your check-book in octal? Back in the old days, we used to balance our cheque books in mixed duodecimal and vigentary (sp?) base. That's when there were 12 pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound, just as God intended. For the cognoscenti, that was called Ł.s.d. before they made it illegal..... Come to think of it, why do electronic scales in the US always show pounds and hundredths of a pound? Surely God intended us to use the naturally hexadecimal pounds and ounces. Harold Rabbie Saratoga, CA ###### From: "Chris Ward" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:14:42 -0400 Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-4.ts-6-bay.hck.idt.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news Carl R. Friend wrote in message <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com>... >> >and start executing at the last instruction loaded. >> >No boot code necessary. Yippee! >> >> Of course this was implemented, on the KA at least, by having a 16 >> word ROM that hid at address 0 and got jumped to when you pushed the >> button, containing the boot code. > > That's news to me. All the -10s I've seen (real ones at least -- >no microcode :-) ) have this implemented as a separate time-state >path. The KA _may_ have had a small ROM, but I don't recall one. > I may be wrong, but the first 16 words on the KA may have been core memory (which was persistant across powerups) and was "hidden" by the fast memory accumulators and the contents persisted (like ROM!) across powerups. It has been 20 years since I operated a 10, but I do remember you could key in a bootstrap from the front panel switches. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:00:38 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 27 Message-ID: <371F47A6.B8D17E18@stoneweb.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 22 Apr 1999 16:00:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Chris Ward wrote: > > I may be wrong, but the first 16 words on the KA may have been core > memory (which was persistant across powerups) and was "hidden" by the > fast memory accumulators and the contents persisted (like ROM!) > across powerups. Your memory is correct, but only for the KA. "Fast Memory" was not switchable in KIs and later. On a KA with the FM (No, not _that_ FM) switched off, the ACs, indeed, were in core. There was a penalty in performance, of course. As far as I'm aware, FM was a _very_ popular option in the KA and not too many shipped without it. > It has been 20 years since I operated a 10, but I do remember you > could key in a bootstrap from the front panel switches. For devices which didn't support READIN-mode, you pretty much had to enter the bootstrap from the panel. However, most devices tended to be compatible with the READIN convention. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: "Equality7-2521" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:50:15 +0100 Organization: Heriot-Watt University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gbh-g37.res.hw.ac.uk X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news-serv.hw.ac.uk!not-for-mail >> Real programs should be ready to type "ed a.out" >> Real programmers don't debug they read the core As a surreal or abstract programmer, this fascinates me, how would you go about editing the compiled program like that? I have no plans to do this ever for real stuff, maybe a simple hello world program would be nice though. Also- what would you look for in the core? These are things that would be sueful to have a little working knowledge of, but us people don't get that in books... :-) just wondering, as I like these kind of hands on type things, Thanks, C. ###### From: "AndyC" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:10:57 +0100 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7fh14d$sbn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak6d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo.dera.gov.uk!server1.netnews.ja.net!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news Ron Hunsinger wrote in message news:hnsngr-ya023180001904992303470001@supernews.sirius.com... : And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape generator, : which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something useful. : Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... AndyC ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: alderson@netcom.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW In-Reply-To: "AndyC"'s message of Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:10:57 +0100 Message-ID: Sender: alderson@netcom.netcom.com Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Organization: NETCOM On-line services References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7fh14d$sbn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:34:44 GMT Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!ix.netcom.com!netcom!alderson In article <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> "AndyC" writes: >Ron Hunsinger wrote in message >news:hnsngr-ya023180001904992303470001@supernews.sirius.com... >: And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape generator, >: which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something useful. >: Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. >No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... And the distinction would be??? -- Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Chief systems administrator, XKL LLC, 1998-now ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 22 Apr 1999 18:50:21 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Message-ID: <7fnr1d$r7a@freenet-news.carleton.ca> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.carleton.ca X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet3.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!24.93.28.83!xcski.com!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 "Equality7-2521" (ceecsa@cee.hw.ac.uk) writes: >>> Real programs should be ready to type "ed a.out" > > As a surreal or abstract programmer, this fascinates me, how would you go > about editing the compiled program like that? Obviously, you've never used an 029 to modify an E-level assembler object deck. The tricky part was filling in the holes that were erroneously punched. ###### From: pdarnows@qis.net (Philip W. Darnowsky) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:50:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.96.22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@qis.net X-Trace: news-read1.qis.net 924828647 209.150.96.22 (Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:50:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:50:47 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!news-read1.qis.net!pdarnows Richard M. Alderson III (alderson@netcom.netcom.com) wrote: : In article <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> "AndyC" writes: : >Ron Hunsinger wrote in message : >news:hnsngr-ya023180001904992303470001@supernews.sirius.com... : >: And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape generator, : >: which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something useful. : >: Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. : >No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... : And the distinction would be??? Most beginning programmers have enough basic human decency to refrain from shrink-wrapping and selling their programs. --------------------------------------------------------------- Phil Darnowsky pdarnows@spameggsbaconandspam.qis.net Remove spam, eggs, bacon, spam, and dot to reply. "You see officer, I was in a hurry to get to the brothel, so when I made that turn the wrong way up the one-way street, I dropped my crack pipe. Of course, I didn't want that to set all those counterfeit $20 bills on fire, so I bent down to grab it. Just my luck, my Glock fell off my lap, and wedged itself onto the gas pedal. I tried to pull up the pedal with a crowbar, but it was all slippery with blood and brains and hair. Anyway, I think the pedal got stuck, what with all the Krazy Glue I was huffing dripping onto it. So that's why my car hit that Volkswagen full of nuns, but that's all right, since I'm really too drunk to be driving anyway." ###### From: "Alan H. Martin" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:06:23 -0400 Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <371F47A6.B8D17E18@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-255-163.s163.tnt2.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 23 Apr 1999 05:06:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB,es Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > Chris Ward wrote: > > > > I may be wrong, but the first 16 words on the KA may have been core > > memory (which was persistant across powerups) and was "hidden" by the > > fast memory accumulators and the contents persisted (like ROM!) > > across powerups. > > Your memory is correct, but only for the KA. "Fast Memory" was not > switchable in KIs and later. On a KA with the FM (No, not _that_ FM) > switched off, the ACs, indeed, were in core. ... The KA which Chris used (#101) once had an intermittent in the FM ENB switch, causing the hardware ACs to be randomly switched in and out as the margin check/maintenance panel vibrated (or was tapped by the field servant). When the Computer Museum was selling off PDP-6 boards at the MR cafeteria garage sale, I asked Gordon if read-in mode was implemented as a diode matrix, and if so, could he direct me to that board. He said it wasn't, and that I really wanted an AR/MQ/MB/lamp driver(Memory Indicator?) S6205K arithmetic register bit slice instead. /AHM -- Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:03:37 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <37202959.A5E43BBA@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 924856463 nnrp-12:5819 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Brian Inglis wrote: > Anyone remember having bootstrap toggle races: on PDP-11s with no boot ROM Ahhh, nostalgia isn't what it used to be... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:10:30 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 924856465 nnrp-12:5819 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Equality7-2521 wrote: > As a surreal or abstract programmer, this fascinates me, how would you go > about editing the compiled program like that? I have no plans to do this Whaddayamean surreal? I've just sorted out a messy problem on an embedded processor by digging through a load of hexadecimal to work out where half a dozen processes were when everything stopped. Is it that the present generation of programmers *can't* do this, or that they can, but *won't* when they know that if they fail, I'll do it for them? Or am I just getting bitter, twisted, and lost without my PDP-11? -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 09:19:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7fpk3i$v7t$5@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: d10.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 23 Apr 1999 11:04:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d10 In article , pdarnows@qis.net (Philip W. Darnowsky) wrote: >Richard M. Alderson III (alderson@netcom.netcom.com) wrote: >: In article <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> "AndyC" writes: > >: >Ron Hunsinger wrote in message >: >news:hnsngr-ya023180001904992303470001@supernews.sirius.com... > >: >: And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape generator, >: >: which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something useful. > >: >: Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. > >: >No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... > >: And the distinction would be??? > >Most beginning programmers have enough basic human decency to refrain from >shrink-wrapping and selling their programs. No. Beginning programmers would have the curiousity to run the program before it was shrink-wrapped. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 09:22:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7fpk8o$v7t$6@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d10.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 23 Apr 1999 11:07:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d10 In article <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >Equality7-2521 wrote: > >> As a surreal or abstract programmer, this fascinates me, >>how would you go >> about editing the compiled program like that? I have no plans to do this > > Whaddayamean surreal? I've just sorted out a messy problem on an >embedded processor by digging through a load of hexadecimal to work out >where half a dozen processes were when everything stopped. Wow! :-) > > Is it that the present generation of programmers *can't* do this, or >that they can, but *won't* when they know that if they fail, I'll do it >for them? Yes. > > Or am I just getting bitter, twisted, and lost without my PDP-11? > Maybe you're just suffering from a byte hex. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:22:07 -0700 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <371F47A6.B8D17E18@stoneweb.com> <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 924891737 7686 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: scott To: "Alan H. Martin" In-Reply-To: <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.u.washington.edu!Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU!mrc On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Alan H. Martin wrote: > When the Computer Museum was selling off PDP-6 boards at the MR cafeteria > garage sale Is that what happened to the Stanford PDP-6 after it was donated to the Computer Museum in 1984? That is disgusting. The Stanford PDP-6 was perhaps the last operational PDP-6 in the world. It was part of the Stanford AI Lab tri-processor KL10/KA10/PDP-6 system until 1980, when the KL and KA moved from the DC Power Building to Margaret Jacks Hall. I was at SAIL from 1977 - 1979 (when I became the system programmer for the Computer Science DEC-20) and have fond memories of seeing the old gal put through her paces. The PDP-6 had its own 64K core memory bank, and was used as a dedicated machine to operate the synthesizers used by the computer music group. The PDP-6 stayed at DC Power, along with the Computer Music group. I don't know if the PDP-6 was ever run with the Foonly, but I think that the musicians attached the synthesizers directly to the Foonly and the PDP-6 was retired after the tri-processor was broken up. I saw it running at the 20th anniversary celebration in 1984, but apparently some register bit was stuck on so they had to program around it in making a little light-blinking program. [Which reminds me, we need a 36th anniversary celebration next year...] Well, I confess, the KA10 had a similar fate. It was used as an XGP (XeroGraphic Printer) controller, and finally toasted itself due to a cooling fan failure. At that point, it was considered unrepairable, retired, and I presently bought it for $500. I took the front panel, light panels, and adder boards for myself; I sent the BBN Pager to the Swedish hackers; and the rest was sold to a scrap metal dealer. The Swedish hackers were a bit distressed at the demolition of an historical KA, but it really was toasted. The last I heard, the BBN Pager had been installed in a KA in Sweden and was running Tenex (many, many years after it was supplied to SAIL with the intent of getting SAIL to run Tenex). I still have that front panel, as well as the front panel to one of the IMSSS KI10s. -- Mark -- * RCW 19.190 notice: This email address is located in Washington State. * * Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message. * Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:21:48 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <372081FC.83517659@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7fpk8o$v7t$6@antiochus.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 924879259 nnrp-02:1258 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Wow! :-) Thank you. It's not that bad, all you have to do is find the stack pointers of all the stopped processes, then walk back up the stacks to find out what is waiting for what, and in the end you find your way to a stopped device driver, which has told the chip it is driving to shut down, and then decided to wait for the completion of the *next* operation... -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: pdarnows@qis.net (Philip W. Darnowsky) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:34:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.96.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@qis.net X-Trace: news-read1.qis.net 924878070 209.150.96.20 (Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:34:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:34:30 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnews.com!nntp.abs.net!news-read1.qis.net!pdarnows Robert Billing (unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk) wrote: : Whaddayamean surreal? I've just sorted out a messy problem on an : embedded processor by digging through a load of hexadecimal to work out : where half a dozen processes were when everything stopped. : Is it that the present generation of programmers *can't* do this, or : that they can, but *won't* when they know that if they fail, I'll do it : for them? Most of us probably can't. I'd take a whack at it, but then I'm a masochist. --------------------------------------------------------------- Phil Darnowsky pdarnows@spameggsbaconandspam.qis.net Remove spam, eggs, bacon, spam, and dot to reply. "You see officer, I was in a hurry to get to the brothel, so when I made that turn the wrong way up the one-way street, I dropped my crack pipe. Of course, I didn't want that to set all those counterfeit $20 bills on fire, so I bent down to grab it. Just my luck, my Glock fell off my lap, and wedged itself onto the gas pedal. I tried to pull up the pedal with a crowbar, but it was all slippery with blood and brains and hair. Anyway, I think the pedal got stuck, what with all the Krazy Glue I was huffing dripping onto it. So that's why my car hit that Volkswagen full of nuns, but that's all right, since I'm really too drunk to be driving anyway." ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 23 Apr 1999 15:11:19 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7fbie1$3qu$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7fh14d$sbn$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 924869403 4687 194.90.227.153 (23 Apr 1999 12:10:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Apr 1999 12:10:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail alderson@netcom.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes: > In article <7fnlbu$lum@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> "AndyC" writes: > > >Ron Hunsinger wrote in message > >news:hnsngr-ya023180001904992303470001@supernews.sirius.com... > > >: And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape generator, > >: which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something useful. > > >: Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. > > >No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... > > And the distinction would be??? That beginners learn? -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 23 Apr 1999 17:35:24 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 60 Message-ID: <7fqb0s$18du$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: glass2.cv.lexington.ibm.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.idt.net!nyd.news.ans.net!abq.news.ans.net!news.chips.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail In <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing writes: >Equality7-2521 wrote: > >> As a surreal or abstract programmer, this fascinates me, how would you go >> about editing the compiled program like that? I have no plans to do this > > Whaddayamean surreal? I've just sorted out a messy problem on an >embedded processor by digging through a load of hexadecimal to work out >where half a dozen processes were when everything stopped. > > Is it that the present generation of programmers *can't* do this, or >that they can, but *won't* when they know that if they fail, I'll do it >for them? > > Or am I just getting bitter, twisted, and lost without my PDP-11? > >-- >I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal >lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ >"Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock >phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" No, you're not getting bitter. Just reminiscing for the good old days (which weren't always so good). I can remember when a user came to me (This was in 1995), saying "This program worked fine on Friday, and now it abends, and I didn't change anything!". Of course, they always say that last part. :*) Oh, and did I mention that the last time that particular application had been supported was 1973? Oh, and should I also mention that there was no source code for it any longer? (The source had disappeared sometime in the mid-1970s.) Of course, it wasn't a really big program. The executable was only about 600,000 bytes long. After spending a few hours digging through the hexadecimal dump, I found the problem, and had the user back up and running in a few minutes (It seems that the user's I/S support group had decided to reblock the libaries on Sunday, and when the application was written, it was inconceivable that data could be blocked as large as it had been; thus, a buffer was overflowing and causing the crash). Now, I won't bore anyone with the story about how I found a bug in an operating system (CMS component of IBM's VM/ESA), and tracked it back to the code which was in error, all without source code! It's amazing what you can do with a good disassembler and a good debugger (You have to love that TRACE feature on VM/ESA. Oh, wait a minute. Did I say 'good debugger'?). :*) And, of course, we used to ship service (fixes) as zaps to the executable. Who couldn't love AMASPZAP, aka Super-Zap? Plus, who hasn't written their own channel programs to read, modify, and then rewrite a block of data on a disk? Weren't the good old days wonderful? :*) Dave P.S. I work for them, but I don't speak for them. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Date: 23 Apr 1999 22:05:21 GMT Message-ID: <3720eea1$0$16952@news.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-020.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 924905121 16952 194.247.41.24 Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail On 1999-04-22 ceecsa@cee.hw.ac.uk said: :>> Real programmers don't debug they read the core :As a surreal or abstract programmer, this fascinates me, how would :you go about editing the compiled program like that? ^^^^^^^^ Now there's a presumption. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Date: 23 Apr 1999 22:05:23 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3720eea3$0$16952@news.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-020.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 924905123 16952 194.247.41.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail On 1999-04-22 alderson@netcom.com said: :>: And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape :>: generator, which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up :>: with something useful. :>: Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. :>No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... :And the distinction would be??? The beginner will improve over time. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 09:39:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7fs9kh$hii$4@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7fpk8o$v7t$6@antiochus.ultra.net> <372081FC.83517659@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-14.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 24 Apr 1999 11:24:01 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!d11 In article <372081FC.83517659@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Wow! :-) > > Thank you. It's not that bad, all you have to do is find the stack >pointers of all the stopped processes, then walk back up the stacks to >find out what is waiting for what, and in the end you find your way to a >stopped device driver, which has told the chip it is driving to shut >down, and then decided to wait for the completion of the *next* >operation... > Yup. I was assuming you didn't have DDT :-). The next step would be trying to figure out how those device drivers got themselves wedged in the first place. When stuck, JMF and TW would always blame the hardware. Stuch means not reproducible and the problem only occurred once in their lifetime :-). How do you define nonreproducible? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 09:45:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7fsa06$hii$5@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <7fngi9$2uh$1@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <37202AF6.3BF43227@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <7fqb0s$18du$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-14.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 24 Apr 1999 11:30:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!d11 In article <7fqb0s$18du$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>, glass2@glass2.lexington.ibm.com wrote: >And, of course, we used to ship service (fixes) as zaps to the >executable. Who couldn't love AMASPZAP, aka Super-Zap? Zap? What a beautiful word. Our use of the word zap was a program that sniffed around and logged out jobs that had been idle for too long and was wasting a job slot. No longer could somebody come in to work, login, and then leave thinking that was all one had to do to show his boss he was on-line and working his ass off :-). >Weren't the good old days wonderful? :*) Well, only sometimes. I often wonder what we would have accomplished if we had the hardware of today back then. We certainly wouldn't have to wait months for the slow motion of hardware acquistion. We could have just gone to our local PC store, bought the stuff, and worked at home. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park FL Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:22:19 GMT Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.wjv.com!bill In article <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos wrote: > > >Chris Hedley wrote: >> "Did I ever mention the time I slammed the door of a minicomputer >> and caught one of the SCSI cables in it, you know the really >> expensive ones with twisted-pair wiring and all? And muggins here >> had to fix the thing using an iron and my teeth. The amazing >> thing was is still worked..." >Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. Sure did/does. But not twisted as you normally think of. It is flat ribbon cable with individual pairs twisted and every few inches there is a place where they untwist to become parallel so you can cut it there and attach adaptors. Much better than the flat ribbon cable. Better than poor round cables. Twisted pairs minimize EMF interference while shielding reduces electro-static interference. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park FL Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fg5fi$r10$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:23:30 GMT Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.wjv.com!bill In article <7fg5fi$r10$1@bcarh8ab.ca.nortel.com>, Danny Lingman wrote: >In article <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com>, Brian.dot.Inglis@CADvision.com (Brian Inglis) writes: >|> On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:00:58 -0500, hshubs@mindspring.com (Howard S Shubs) >|> wrote: >|> >In article <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net>, jt5555@epix.net (Julian >|> >Thomas) wrote: >|> >>wrong. Real programmers write in assembler. >|> >What? You mean "real programmers" can't program right on the machine? >|> >They need an -interface-?? >|> At least a hardware interface: lights and switches! >|> Can't do *NO* programming without some kinda i/f ;^> >Wimp. Get thee a Soldering Iron and some wire, and go to it. - >hardwiring - the one true way to program. "Never trust a programmer with a screwdriver" - George Morrow -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 From: bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park FL Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:53:15 GMT Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.wjv.com!bill In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: >The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape >and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero >characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. ... Do you mean all 1's - that's the way you erased an error in a tape - punch the holes all the way across. octal 177, decimal 127, octal 0x7F - DEL - for delete. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:43:01 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 27 Message-ID: <37225705.A7E8E050@stoneweb.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 24 Apr 1999 23:43:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme wrote: > > PDP-10s had a builtin bootstrap mechanism. Set the device number, > press the boot button (name?) and the system would read one word > from the perihperal. > > [...] Disks didn't support it. Booting from disk entailed > booting from DECtape and typing the name of the disk boot program. This isn't entirely correct. The RH-10 supported READIN mode. I'm sure it "faked it" as all the data from the disk passed through the DF-10 data channel, but the scheme worked. Of course it only booted from RP?0, but that's a technicality. From what I've seen in other systems, it probably faked a transfer of a 'JRST (wherever), JRST .' and the machine looped happily until the DF-10 overwrote the location of the "JRST .". (Here's one of the points where "standard" punctuation fails, miserably!) Just a guess, though. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:07:28 GMT Organization: . Lines: 18 Message-ID: <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-147-29.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail alt.folklore.computers << bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion)(Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:53:15 GMT); > In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, > Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: > > >The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape > >and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero > >characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. ... > > Do you mean all 1's - that's the way you erased an error in a > tape - punch the holes all the way across. > > octal 177, decimal 127, octal 0x7F - DEL - for delete. Syntax error in line 8: illegal character in octal constant. Exiting. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 06:39:48 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <3722B8B4.9C60A6BE@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 925022719 nnrp-09:12328 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Bill Vermillion wrote: > It is flat ribbon cable with individual pairs twisted and every few > inches there is a place where they untwist to become parallel so > you can cut it there and attach adaptors. Much better than > the flat ribbon cable. Better than poor round cables. The trick when making this sort of cable is to give all the twists a slightly different pitch, so that crosstalk between adjacent pairs is minimised. This sort of cable is used for parallel digital video, 10 data bits, 1 clock and 3 grounds (there is one single wire for a ground). -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW From: Pro2032@altavista.net References: <7fsa06$hii$5@ligarius.ultra.net> Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:01:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.108.197.120 X-Complaints-To: news@bctel.net X-Trace: news.bctel.net 925048889 206.108.197.120 (Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:01:29 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:01:29 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.bctel.net!news.bctel.net!not-for-mail On 1999-04-24 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: >Well, only sometimes. I often wonder what we would have >accomplished if we had the hardware of today back then. >We certainly wouldn't have to wait months for the slow >motion of hardware acquistion. We could have just gone >to our local PC store, bought the stuff, and worked at Ha! I gotta wonder how successfull something like American Airlines SABRE reservations system would have been if implemented on a plethora of PCs. How many people can you jam into the same seat? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park FL Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> <3722B8B4.9C60A6BE@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:08:24 GMT Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.wjv.com!bill In article <3722B8B4.9C60A6BE@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing wrote: >Bill Vermillion wrote: > >> It is flat ribbon cable with individual pairs twisted and every few >> inches there is a place where they untwist to become parallel so >> you can cut it there and attach adaptors. Much better than >> the flat ribbon cable. Better than poor round cables. > The trick when making this sort of cable is to give all the twists a >slightly different pitch, so that crosstalk between adjacent pairs is >minimised. This sort of cable is used for parallel digital video, 10 >data bits, 1 clock and 3 grounds (there is one single wire for a >ground). And in SCSI, unless it's differential, each pair has one ground and one signal. The single wire for ground is what you'd see on the earlier SCSI implementations and the Apple implementation, current Zip implementations, with 1 ground wire for everything. Cheap but not correct -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 From: bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park FL Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:40:04 GMT Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.wjv.com!bill In article <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be>, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >alt.folklore.computers << bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill >Vermillion)(Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:53:15 GMT); > >> In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, >> Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: >> >> >The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape >> >and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero >> >characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. ... >> >> Do you mean all 1's - that's the way you erased an error in a >> tape - punch the holes all the way across. >> octal 177, decimal 127, octal 0x7F - DEL - for delete. >Syntax error in line 8: illegal character in octal constant. >Exiting. Drat! I always have trouble with these new formats :-) And somewhere I had fun program that translated typed input into a graphics representation of a punched tape. I think it went away on the last system upgrade, and I now I can't even remember it's name. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### From: gcash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 25 Apr 1999 17:42:32 GMT Organization: MagicNet, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm58-12.magicnet.net X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!not-for-mail bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) writes: > And somewhere I had fun program that translated typed input > into a graphics representation of a punched tape. > > I think it went away on the last system upgrade, and I now > I can't even remember it's name. It's called "ppt" and it's part of the "bsd-games" RPM on Redhat. [root@linux /root]# rpm -qf /usr/games/ppt bsd-games-1.3-8 [root@linux /root]# /usr/games/ppt hello ___________ | oo o. | | oo .o o| | oo o.o | | oo o.o | | oo o.ooo| ___________ -gc -- While Linux is larger than Emacs, at least Linux has the excuse that it needs to be. -- Linus Torvalds ###### From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:10:48 GMT Organization: . Lines: 24 Message-ID: <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-41-113.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail alt.folklore.computers << gcash (25 Apr 1999 17:42:32 GMT); > bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) writes: > > > And somewhere I had fun program that translated typed input > > into a graphics representation of a punched tape. > > > > I think it went away on the last system upgrade, and I now > > I can't even remember it's name. > > It's called "ppt" and it's part of the "bsd-games" RPM on Redhat. Now this sounds like fun, I've got a RedHat CD laying around somewhere, might take a look at it to see if it can be ported to Windows. There's a tie at work whom I'd love to pay back some day for the Word-format mails, including >1MB graphical comany logo in the header, he keeps on sending around the company. I can tell him this is just a binary too, all he needs to do is install a program to read it. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 26 Apr 1999 01:06:39 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7g16qf$s4l$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Lines: 108 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 925114003 231 inwap@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail In article , Bill Vermillion wrote: >In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, >Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: > >>The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape >>and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero >>characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. ... > >Do you mean all 1's - that's the way you erased an error in a >tape - punch the holes all the way across. No, BINARY mode skipped all zeros. 36-bits of data were punched onto 6 frames of tape 6 bits at at time with the high-order (8th) bit set. Unpunched tape was ignored when reading in BINARY mode. In ASCII mode, all ones (377 octal, 255 decimal, 0xFF hex) indicated a manual correction. It was created by pressing the backspace button on the paper-tape attachment on the ASR-33 Teletype and then pressing the RUBOUT key. That was done only for paper tapes created off-line, when the Teletype's keyboard was connected directly to the paper tape punch. --------------------- 5.6 PAPER-TAPE PUNCH The device mnemonic is PTP; the buffer size is 43(octal) words (40(octal) data words). 5.6.1 Data Modes 5.6.1.1 ASCII, Octal Code 0 - The eighth hole is punched when necessary in order to make even parity. Tape-feed without the eighth hole (000) is inserted after form-feed. A rubout is inserted after each vertical or horizontal tab. Null characters (000) in appearing in the buffer are not punched. 5.6.1.2 ASCII Line, Octal Code 1 - The mode is same as ASCII mode. Format control must be performed by the users's program. 5.6.1.3 Image, Octal Code 10 - Eight-bit characters are punched exactly as they appear in the buffer with no additional processing. 5.6.1.4 Image Binary, Octal Code 13 - Binary words taaken from the outputt buffer are split into six 6-bit bytes and punched with the eighth hole punched in each line. Thre is not format control or checksumming performed by the I/O routine. Data punched in this mode is read back by the paper-tape reader in IB mode. 5.6.1.5 Binary, Octal Code 14 - Each bufferful of data is punched as one checksummed binary block as described for the paper-tape reader. Several blank lines are punched after each bufferful for visual clarity. 5.7 PAPER-TAPE READER The devise mnemonic is PTR; the buffer size is 43(octal) (40(octal) data) words. 5.7.1 Data Modes (Input Only) NOTE To initialize the paper-tape reader, the input tape must be threaded through the reading mechanism and the FEED button must be depressed. 5.7.1.1 ASCII, Octal COde 0, Blank tape (000), RUBOUT (377), and null characters (200) are ignored. All other characters are truncated to seven bits are appear in the buffer. The physical end of the paper tape serves as an EOF, but does not caus a character to appear in the buffer. 5.7.1.2 ASCII Line, Octal Code 1 - Character processin is the same as for ASCII mode. The buffer is terminated by LINE FEED, FORM FEED, or VT. 5.7.1.3 Image, Octal COde 10 - There is no character processing. The buffer is packed with 8-bit characters exactly as read from the input tape. Physical end of tape is the EOF indication but does not cause a character to appear in the buffer. 5.7.1.4 Image Binary, Octal Code 13 - Characcters not having the eighth hole punched are ignored. Characters are truncated to six bits and packed six to the word without further processing. This mode is useful for reading binary tapes having arbitrary blocking format. 5.7.1.5 Binary, Octal Code 16 - Checksummed binary data is read in the following format. The right half of the first word of each physical block contains the number of data words that follow and the left half contains a folded checksum. The checksum is formed by adding the data words using 2's complement arithemetic, then splitting the 36-bit sum into three 12-bit bytes and adding these using 1's complement arithemetic to form a 12-bit checksum. [This is the same algorithm used for reading 78 columns of 12-bit data from the card reader.] The data error flag is raised if the checksum miscompares. Because the checksum and word count appear in the input buffer, the maximum block length is 40. The byte pointer, however, is initialized so as to not pick up the word count and checksum word. Again, physical end of tape is the EOF indication, but does not result in putting a character in the buffer. [Pages 5-18 through 5-20 of the DECsystem-10 Monitor Calls Manual, DEC-10-MRRC-D (5.05 release of the monitor, June 1972).] -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 26 Apr 1999 01:14:58 -0700 Organization: Chez Inwap Message-ID: <7g17a2$pp$1@shell3.ba.best.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37225705.A7E8E050@stoneweb.com> Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 925114503 224 inwap@206.184.139.134 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news2.best.com!news.idiom.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail In article <37225705.A7E8E050@stoneweb.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: >Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme wrote: >> >> PDP-10s had a builtin bootstrap mechanism. Set the device number, >> press the boot button (name?) and the system would read one word >> from the perihperal. >> >> [...] Disks didn't support it. Booting from disk entailed >> booting from DECtape and typing the name of the disk boot program. > > This isn't entirely correct. The RH-10 supported READIN mode. I'm >sure it "faked it" as all the data from the disk passed through the >DF-10 data channel, but the scheme worked. Of course it only booted >from RP?0, but that's a technicality. That may have worked with the first model of disks, but not with the RP02 or RP03. The usual thing was to have a short bootstrap program routine in the paper-tape reader at all times. Pressing the READ-IN button with the device code set to PTR would read in the pre-boot program from the paper-tape reader. That program would then read in BOOTS from blocks 3, 4, 5 on the lowest numbered disk on the first disk channel. At the Colorado School of Mines, the terminal-line scanner was a PDP-8 with a few unused memory locations. It was set up to supply the pre-boot routine for READ-IN mode instead of using the paper-tape reader. -Joe -- INWAP.COM is Joe Smith, Sally Smith and our cat Murdock. (The O'Hallorans and their cats moved to http://www.tyedye.org/ Nov-98.) See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10, "ReBoot", "Shadow Raiders"/"War Planets" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <7fsa06$hii$5@ligarius.ultra.net> Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 03:39:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.212.106.44 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 925097954 141.212.106.44 (Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:39:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:39:14 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit In article , wrote: >On 1999-04-24 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: > >Well, only sometimes. I often wonder what we would have > >accomplished if we had the hardware of today back then. > >We certainly wouldn't have to wait months for the slow > >motion of hardware acquistion. We could have just gone > >to our local PC store, bought the stuff, and worked at >Ha! I gotta wonder how successfull something like >American Airlines SABRE reservations system would >have been if implemented on a plethora of PCs. > >How many people can you jam into the same seat? Oh, about 2.7182818284590452354, if you're running Pentia. Give or take. -- Sergej Roytman ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 From: werme@werme.ne.mediaone.net (Ric Werme) Lines: 25 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 03:48:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.109.10 X-Trace: wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net 925098512 24.128.109.10 (Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:48:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:48:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.44.7!wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) writes: >In article <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, >Eric Werme - replace nospam with werme <> wrote: >>The peripherals needed some logic to handle booting, e.g. DECtape >>and magtape rewound and read forward. Paper tape skipped zero >>characters (or something odd). Disks didn't support it. ... >Do you mean all 1's - that's the way you erased an error in a >tape - punch the holes all the way across. No - that could have been incorporated into the IOWD. Hmm. I forget exactly how the 8 bit data on the tape made it into 36 bit words too. I might have the info in a manual, but I lent most of them to Megan. I think I still have a low level one, but it's at the other house. >octal 177, decimal 127, octal 0x7F - DEL - for delete. You forgot parity - 377, 255, _HEX_ 0xFF. -- Ric Werme | http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme werme@nospam.mediaone.net | http://www.cyberportal.net/werme ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: NightGaunt J Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 06:21:43 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7g10ll$kuc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.180.129.80 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Apr 26 06:21:43 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (WinNT; U ;Nav) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x6.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 140.180.129.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Avi Drissman wrote: > You know you've been hacking too long when... > > You're in the middle of a dream, and you realize that the graphics are > chewing up an enormous amount of memory, and you need to make sure you > don't memory leak, or blow the cache. See, that's why I dream in monochrome. -Ng Another trick: switch to a lower framerate. It's hard on your eyes, but your eyes are CLOSED!!!! -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: "Larry S. Samberg" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:23:39 -0400 Organization: Sonoma Systems Lines: 11 Sender: larry@163.182.152.31 Message-ID: <7g1pd2$nt8$1@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <371F47A6.B8D17E18@stoneweb.com> <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 163.182.152.31 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 26 Apr 1999 13:23:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail ---------- In article <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > The KA which Chris used (#101) once had an intermittent in the FM ENB switch, > causing the hardware ACs to be randomly switched in and out as the margin > check/maintenance panel vibrated (or was tapped by the field servant). Amazing! I was one of the first users of KA #101. Did I know Chris? ###### From: Phil Cuff Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:47:17 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7g28r4$pga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3718aa0c$4$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <371afb2e.76762958@news.cadvision.com> <7fd4e0$5ce$2@teabag.demon.co.uk> <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.135.122.2 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Apr 26 17:47:17 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en] (Win95; I ;Nav) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x17.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.135.122.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed.amsterdam.nl.net!sun4nl!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <371A83A0.2E9192B4@mail.eunet.pt>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Vasconcelos wrote: > > > Chris Hedley wrote: > > > "Did I ever mention the time I slammed the door of a minicomputer > > and caught one of the SCSI cables in it, you know the really expensive > > ones with twisted-pair wiring and all? And muggins here had to fix > > the thing using an iron and my teeth. The amazing thing was is still > > worked..." > > Errr... SCSI never used twisted pair cables. > Maybe SMD or FMD?... Those great huge Maytag-like monstrosities from CDC that would walk across the floor if you got the seek timing just right? Had a pair of fifty-conductor twisted-pair ribbon cables that were always getting severed in the floor tiles IIRC. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: gcash Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 26 Apr 1999 23:17:48 GMT Organization: MagicNet, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm57-39.magicnet.net X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!not-for-mail lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) writes: > Now this sounds like fun, I've got a RedHat CD laying around > somewhere, might take a look at it to see if it can be ported to > Windows. Hell, it's easy enough to write from first principles... For each character in the input string, output a "|", an "o" for each 1 bit, and a " " for each 0 bit, being sure to stick a "." between bits 2 & 3, then another "|" and a eol. emit "-----------" at beginning and end to look pretty. Still, I'm motivated to find the source now to see if they used any cute coding tricks. Oh my god... never mind... the BSD copyright & RCS header are bigger'n the code! And they never heard of the C trinary operator... -gc -- While Linux is larger than Emacs, at least Linux has the excuse that it needs to be. -- Linus Torvalds ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 27 Apr 99 07:51:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <7g40en$qnq$3@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37225705.A7E8E050@stoneweb.com> <7g17a2$pp$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <3724F243.6A64F9C9@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d14.dial-15.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 27 Apr 1999 09:36:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!d14 In article <3724F243.6A64F9C9@stoneweb.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >Joe Smith wrote: >> >> [READIN mode] may have worked with the first model of disks, but not >> with the RP02 or RP03. > > I remember it working with the RP04s at ADP. My belief is that the >"brains" behind this lived in the RH-10, and the RH-10 returned a tiny >program via the I/O bus and commanded the disk to transfer sector >zero through the DF-10 into memory, at some point overwriting a self- >jump that the RH-10 had given the processor. > > Of course I may have my head up my backside, but I do not ever >recall booting a live system using either paper tape or DECtape. First of all, one did not boot a live system; users had a habit of shooting the crasher [joking emoticon here just giving a little prod]. One could boot a dead system from disk, paper tape, DECtape or magtape (I'm talking about KAs and KIs here...not KLs). > >> At the Colorado School of Mines, the terminal-line scanner was a PDP-8 >> with a few unused memory locations. It was set up to supply the >> pre-boot routine for READ-IN mode instead of using the paper-tape >> reader. > > I've read about that hack and like it a lot. That's a creative use >of resources! > Yes, well, it got implemented to the extreme with the KL; for that we gave up real live lights. TW hated it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Ambrose, Joseph" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:08:24 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <7g5tus$gou$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fpk3i$v7t$5@antiochus.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.13.247 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 925268764 17182 12.79.13.247 (28 Apr 1999 03:06:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Apr 1999 03:06:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail >: >: And the program I'd have entered would have been a random tape > generator, > >: >: which I'd let punch random tapes until it came up with something > useful. > > > >: >: Oh, wait. That's the way beginning programmers write. Never mind. > > > >: >No. That's the way Microsoft programmers work... > > > >: And the distinction would be??? > > > >Most beginning programmers have enough basic human decency to refrain from > >shrink-wrapping and selling their programs. > > No. Beginning programmers would have the curiousity to run > the program before it was shrink-wrapped. Man are you guys cruel...... accurate yes.... but cruel! :-) -- Joseph Ambrose NT Network Administrator / Open VMS System Manager The Conference Board ambrose@conference-board.org ICQ# 13652219 ###### From: "Chris Ward" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:27:58 -0400 Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7g9jfq$fdb@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7f9rhv$al3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <3719f951.76285607@news.cadvision.com> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <371E7EB5.8123AF06@stoneweb.com> <7fn7kh$g42@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> <371F47A6.B8D17E18@stoneweb.com> <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com> <7g1pd2$nt8$1@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-8.ts-1-bay.hob.idt.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news I do not remember you, but I was not there in the early days of when it was as Stevens. I was there from 75-79. Chris Larry S. Samberg wrote in message <7g1pd2$nt8$1@ligarius.ultra.net>... >---------- >In article <371FFFCF.91181191@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" > wrote: > > >> The KA which Chris used (#101) once had an intermittent in the FM ENB switch, >> causing the hardware ACs to be randomly switched in and out as the margin >> check/maintenance panel vibrated (or was tapped by the field servant). > > >Amazing! I was one of the first users of KA #101. Did I know Chris? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW From: penngwyn@deepforest.org (PennGwyn) Reply-To: pgng@deepforest.org Organization: Leather Gnomes X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 01 May 1999 09:21:01 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: <372ac77d$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dgillett.vip.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 925550461 217 205.149.181.225 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news1.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail In article <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be>, lucvdv@null.net says... > >alt.folklore.computers << gcash (25 Apr 1999 >17:42:32 GMT); > >> bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) writes: >> >> > And somewhere I had fun program that translated typed input >> > into a graphics representation of a punched tape. >> > >> > I think it went away on the last system upgrade, and I now >> > I can't even remember it's name. >> >> It's called "ppt" and it's part of the "bsd-games" RPM on Redhat. > >Now this sounds like fun, I've got a RedHat CD laying around >somewhere, might take a look at it to see if it can be ported to >Windows. > >There's a tie at work whom I'd love to pay back some day for the >Word-format mails, including >1MB graphical comany logo in the >header, he keeps on sending around the company. > >I can tell him this is just a binary too, all he needs to do is >install a program to read it. Personally, I like Lincoln Spector's suggestion that HTML mail should be answered in PostScript. ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 01 May 1999 23:28:13 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7fgd03$3sv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <37223183.16070177@news.uunet.be> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> <372ac77d$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 925590410 27513 194.90.227.153 (1 May 1999 20:26:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 May 1999 20:26:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.208.190.2!news.globix.net!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!in2.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail penngwyn@deepforest.org (PennGwyn) writes: > In article <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be>, lucvdv@null.net says... > > > >alt.folklore.computers << gcash (25 Apr 1999 > >17:42:32 GMT); > > > >> bill@wjv.com.REMOVEME (Bill Vermillion) writes: > >> > >> > And somewhere I had fun program that translated typed input > >> > into a graphics representation of a punched tape. > >> > > >> > I think it went away on the last system upgrade, and I now > >> > I can't even remember it's name. > >> > >> It's called "ppt" and it's part of the "bsd-games" RPM on Redhat. > > > >Now this sounds like fun, I've got a RedHat CD laying around > >somewhere, might take a look at it to see if it can be ported to > >Windows. > > > >There's a tie at work whom I'd love to pay back some day for the > >Word-format mails, including >1MB graphical comany logo in the > >header, he keeps on sending around the company. > > > >I can tell him this is just a binary too, all he needs to do is > >install a program to read it. > > Personally, I like Lincoln Spector's suggestion that HTML mail should be > answered in PostScript. > I've taken a solemn oath to reply to the next MS-Word encrypted email I get in a standard, universally-readable format. DVI, to be precise. Does there exist a standard MIME type for it? -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 1 May 1999 18:16:53 -0400 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7gfugl$jno@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> <372ac77d$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail In article , Ariel Scolnicov wrote: >I've taken a solemn oath to reply to the next MS-Word encrypted email >I get in a standard, universally-readable format. DVI, to be precise. There is much better variant. Universally accepted, standard, readable without any special software, pure ASCII... I mean, answer them _... .._ __. __. . ._. ___ .._. .._. __..__ ._.. .._ ... . ._. ._._._ or simply .._. ___ ._ _.. -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 13:22:27 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <372d4f36.78382580@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> <372ac77d$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7gfugl$jno@weyl.math.psu.edu> Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.220.205 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 925651381 20972 12.79.220.205 (2 May 1999 13:23:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 1999 13:23:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) wrote: | In article , | Ariel Scolnicov wrote: | >I've taken a solemn oath to reply to the next MS-Word encrypted email | >I get in a standard, universally-readable format. DVI, to be precise. | | There is much better variant. Universally accepted, standard, readable | without any special software, pure ASCII... I mean, answer them | _... .._ __. __. . ._. | ___ .._. .._. __..__ | ._.. .._ ... . ._. ._._._ | or simply | .._. ___ ._ _.. Sorry, but Morse is no longer a recognized standard for most purposes *other* than amateur radio. It has been dropped for all commercial purposes, especially for messages requesting aid and assistance. However: Baudot, Extended Baudot (AP/UPI/Reuters etc./Linotype Teletape), and EBSIDC still remain out there on the very edge of the "official" list. **_._* (Teletape shift) _*_._* ***.__ _*_.*_ David M. Razler david.razler@worldnet.att.net ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Re: YKYBHTLW Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 02 May 1999 17:54:14 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> <372ac77d$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7gfugl$jno@weyl.math.psu.edu> <372d4f36.78382580@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 925656766 20810 194.90.227.153 (2 May 1999 14:52:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 1999 14:52:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail *_*._* _*_.*_ *_*._* _*_.*_ *_*._* _*_.*_ *_*._* _*_.*_ *_*._* ***.** ***.** ***.** (just testing the line) david.razler@worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) writes: > viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) wrote: > > | In article , > | Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > | >I've taken a solemn oath to reply to the next MS-Word encrypted email > | >I get in a standard, universally-readable format. DVI, to be precise. > | > | There is much better variant. Universally accepted, standard, readable > | without any special software, pure ASCII... I mean, answer them > | _... .._ __. __. . ._. > | ___ .._. .._. __..__ > | ._.. .._ ... . ._. ._._._ > | or simply > | .._. ___ ._ _.. > > Sorry, but Morse is no longer a recognized standard for most purposes *other* > than amateur radio. It has been dropped for all commercial purposes, > especially for messages requesting aid and assistance. > > However: > Baudot, Extended Baudot (AP/UPI/Reuters etc./Linotype Teletape), and EBSIDC > still remain out there on the very edge of the "official" list. EBSIDC? Is this something old (& new, to me), or just EBCDIC? > > **_._* (Teletape shift) > _*_._* > ***.__ > _*_.*_ > Cool. And it even supports Hebrew, although perhaps in a less standard way. English with a Hebrew machine is really tough -- you need to spell out the names of the letters, saying "english" before and "hebrew" after. What makes it worthwhile is that the spellings for `A', `E' and `I' vary, but only over a 2-element set. Pick the letter you don't want to distinguish from `E'. BTW, is the test string (above) for (real, English) teletypes "TRTRTR..."? [Followups set, since PDP-10s are far too advanced for this] -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 2 May 1999 15:20:26 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7ghqfq$10qe$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7gfugl$jno@weyl.math.psu.edu> <372d4f36.78382580@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul9.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 925658426 33614 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!192.220.250.21!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.verio.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article , Ariel Scolnicov wrote: >*_*._* >_*_.*_ >*_*._* >_*_.*_ >*_*._* >_*_.*_ >*_*._* >_*_.*_ >*_*._* >***.** >***.** >***.** > >(just testing the line) >BTW, is the test string (above) for (real, English) teletypes >"TRTRTR..."? No, actually it's "YRYRYR..." assuming you're thinking of the Murray code. -- Derek ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: 02 May 1999 20:15:31 +0300 Organization: NetVision Israel Message-ID: References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <7gfugl$jno@weyl.math.psu.edu> <372d4f36.78382580@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <7ghqfq$10qe$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 925665242 29393 194.90.227.153 (2 May 1999 17:14:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 1999 17:14:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) writes: > In article , > Ariel Scolnicov wrote: > > >*_*._* > >_*_.*_ > >*_*._* > >_*_.*_ > >*_*._* > >_*_.*_ > >*_*._* > >_*_.*_ > >*_*._* > >***.** > >***.** > >***.** > > > >(just testing the line) > > >BTW, is the test string (above) for (real, English) teletypes > >"TRTRTR..."? > > No, actually it's "YRYRYR..." assuming you're thinking of the Murray code. I'd foolishly assumed Hebrew Murray code would be an uninspired transliteration of the English. Looking at this message, and at my keyboard, I realise my mistake. Apparently, they kept the mapping of the keys to the codes, so Y and Teth get the same code. R and Reish are on the same key, so that's OK. Is ***.** "letters"? -- Ariel Scolnicov ###### From: "Gareth Alun Evans" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Re: YKYBHTLW Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:20:06 +0100 Message-ID: <925673253.14123.0.nnrp-06.9e98250c@news.demon.co.uk> References: <160419991655286030%drissman@acm.org> <37257549.742077@news.uunet.be> <372ac77d$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7gfugl$jno@weyl.math.psu.edu> <372d4f36.78382580@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cemetery.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: cemetery.demon.co.uk:158.152.37.12 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 925673253 nnrp-06:14123 NO-IDENT cemetery.demon.co.uk:158.152.37.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!cemetery.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail David M. Razler wrote in message <372d4f36.78382580@netnews.worldnet.att.net>... >Sorry, but Morse is no longer a recognized standard for most purposes *other* >than amateur radio As this is a folklore NG, that should read, "Vail Code". Alfred Vail was the technical brains, Samuel Morse the publicist. >Baudot, Extended Baudot (AP/UPI/Reuters etc./Linotype Teletape), and EBSIDC Surely you mean "EBCDIC" - Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code?