From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 01:16:39 +0100 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 16 Message-ID: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.251 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 923551907 R67V8VHUD29FBD12CC usenet57.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.supernews.com.MISMATCH!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail This might have been discussed before, but ... does anyone have any info on the Fairchild F8? I know that it was second-sourced by Mostek, and that *two* chips were required to form a usable cpu. Functionally, I would classify it (from my *limited* knowledge) as being like the National SC/MP chip or Signetics 2650. All of these had limited memory addressing capabilities, and their instruction sets (order code) made them difficult to program. Has anyone used an F8 in an application? Does anyone know of a microcomputer designed around an F8? Anyone with any F8 info, can you please post? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:06:55 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7ei5v1$sa4$1@news.igs.net> References: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye14.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 923573025 28996 216.58.117.148 (8 Apr 1999 12:03:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 1999 12:03:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail I used one quite extensively in the 70's, but do not have anything left now. As I recall, though, you needed three chips to be functional. CPU, memory interface, and at least one PIO chip. The memory was only addressable through a register. Charles Richmond wrote in message <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net>... >This might have been discussed before, but ... does anyone have any >info on the Fairchild F8? I know that it was second-sourced by >Mostek, and that *two* chips were required to form a usable cpu. >Functionally, I would classify it (from my *limited* knowledge) >as being like the National SC/MP chip or Signetics 2650. All of >these had limited memory addressing capabilities, and their >instruction sets (order code) made them difficult to program. > >Has anyone used an F8 in an application? Does anyone know of >a microcomputer designed around an F8? Anyone with any F8 >info, can you please post? > >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Charles and Francis Richmond | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Peter Ludemann Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? Date: 08 Apr 1999 09:29:34 -0700 Organization: Inxight Software, Inc. http://www.inxight.com Lines: 16 Sender: ludemann@elbe Message-ID: References: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> <7ei5v1$sa4$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 13.242.52.24 Original-Sender: ludemann@inxight.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net!13.1.103.31!parc!womble.xsoft!usenet "Donald Tees" writes: > The memory was only addressable through a register. I recall it having a very non-orthogonal instruction set that made the 8008 look very good. I think it had 4 registers (A,B,C,D), each with different functionality. The manual had a matrix of what operations could be done between which registers (invalid example, but indicative: to load register D from memory, you would first have to load register A, then copy that to register B, then to D). When people complain that Intel won the microprocessor wars with the worst architecture (compared to NS16k, M68k, etc.), I tell them that there were far worse architectures, such as the F8. I used to collect examples of awful design (my favourite was the 360/67's "sort list" instruction; the F8 was a close second) but I lost them all long ago. ###### From: J. Chris Hausler Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? Date: Thu, 8 Apr 99 10:51:08 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 X-To: Charles Richmond Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.delphi.com!news Charles Richmond writes: >Has anyone used an F8 in an application? Does anyone know of >a microcomputer designed around an F8? Anyone with any F8 >info, can you please post? This is from deeeeep memory but I recall two F8 "machines" available for purchase. One was an evaluation card which was priced about $150.00 and I believe was from Fairchild. There was also a system box available from "Vera" or something like that. I never investigated it because by that time I had lost interest in the F8 due to its weird architecture. It was the first microprocessor I considered for hobby use, primarily because one of the trade magazines, IIRC EDN, had a sequence of articles, I believe in 1976, organized as an introductory course in microprocessors. The key thing which turned me off was that the program counter had to be replicated in each of the support chips and there were situations where they could get off from the processor value. Also about this time I discoverd the 6800 and the rest as they say is history.... Chris ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:44:15 -0400 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 50 Message-ID: <7ej0oc$bvk$1@news.igs.net> References: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> <7ei5v1$sa4$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye0e.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 923600460 12276 216.58.117.142 (8 Apr 1999 19:41:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 1999 19:41:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail It was pretty awkward for sure. There were two data registers, each sixteen bits, and you could only address data by indirecting through them. So to do an eight bit add, for example, you would load the data register with the address of operand one, then load the accumulator using the register, then reset the data register to the address of operand two, then add. There was no stack, only what they called a stack register. It contained the return address for the single level call. So the four registers were the PC, data registers one and two, and the stack register. (Mind you, my memories are faint, even though I probably wrote thousands of lines for that damned chip.) I was about five years out of college when I encountered the F8. I was using PDP-8's for process control, and had just started my own business. I read an article that raved about this new "micro computer" available for a few hundred dollars, and bought one to do a project. You can imagine my dismay when I received a circuit board. No software, no power supply, nothing. I persisted, and got the board working with an SR33. The board had a current loop interface, and an EPROM OS? that had three instructions. "D" for dump, "L" for load, and "M" that worked the same as the DOS debug "M" command. There was a one page write-up that gave the paper tape format (ten bytes, checksum, repeat, starting at memory location zero), and an assembler manual. Unfortunately, the only known assembler ran on a data general that needed Fortran. I had a PDP-10 available, so I wrote an assembler (in Cobol, actually) that punched out a paper tape. That got loaded into a prom burner that burnt proms that got plugged into a pdp-11 board that we wired in. God what a mess. It actually worked in the end(a small miracle). Peter Ludemann wrote in message ... >"Donald Tees" writes: > >> The memory was only addressable through a register. > >I recall it having a very non-orthogonal instruction set that made the >8008 look very good. I think it had 4 registers (A,B,C,D), each with >different functionality. The manual had a matrix of what operations >could be done between which registers (invalid example, but >indicative: to load register D from memory, you would first have to >load register A, then copy that to register B, then to D). > >When people complain that Intel won the microprocessor wars with the >worst architecture (compared to NS16k, M68k, etc.), I tell them that >there were far worse architectures, such as the F8. I used to collect >examples of awful design (my favourite was the 360/67's "sort list" >instruction; the F8 was a close second) but I lost them all long ago. ###### Message-ID: <370D18C3.5981E9E@zen.co.uk> From: "Alan J. Wylie" Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? References: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:59:47 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.23.8.2 X-Trace: news-reader.bt.net 923606055 212.23.8.2 (Thu, 08 Apr 1999 22:14:15 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 22:14:15 BST Lines: 106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!news-reader.bt.net!not-for-mail Charles Richmond wrote: > > This might have been discussed before, but ... does anyone have any > info on the Fairchild F8? I know that it was second-sourced by > Mostek, and that *two* chips were required to form a usable cpu. > Functionally, I would classify it (from my *limited* knowledge) > as being like the National SC/MP chip or Signetics 2650. All of > these had limited memory addressing capabilities, and their > instruction sets (order code) made them difficult to program. > > Has anyone used an F8 in an application? Does anyone know of > a microcomputer designed around an F8? Anyone with any F8 > info, can you please post? I have a copy of "An introduction to Microcomputers", Vol III "Some Real Products", June 1977 Revision, Adam Osborne with Susanna Jacobson and Jerry Kane. Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 76-374891 (No ISBN that I can find). Chapter 1: TMS1000 Chapter 2: F8 Chapter 3: SC/MP Chapter 4: 8080A Chapter 5: 8085 Chapter 6: 8048 Chapter 7: Z80 Chapter 8: 6800 Chapter 9: 6500 Chapter 10: signetics 2650 Chapter 11: RCA Cosmac Chapter 12: IM6100 Chapter 13: SMS300 Chapter 14: NatSemi PACE Chapter 15: General Instruments CP1600 Chapter 16: TMS9900 Chapter 17: Nova Chapter 18: 2900 Chapter 19: MC10800 Chapter 20: HP MC2 There are 64 pages of information on the F8, including Memory timing waveforms. A quick summary, which I hope will answer your questions: Designed to minimise chip counts: Two chip system: 3850 CPU and 3851 PSU (Programmable Storage Unit) Also 3852 DMI (Dynamic Memory Interface) 3853 SMI (Static) 3854 DMA (Direct Memory Access) 3856 and 3857 16Kbits PSU alternatively: 3859 and 3870 single chip 500ns clock, instruction cycle 2 microseconds instruction execution 1 to 6.5 cycles N-channel isoplanar MOS 3850 CPU had no memory addressing logic: SP, PC, Data Counter registers all on memory chips or memory interface chips. Therefore no need for address bus, saving 16 pins. 8 bit accumulator 5 bit status 64 byte scratchpad (small RAM or 64 secondary 8 bit accumulators) (Some addresses in scratchpad are mapped directly to PC or Data Counter registers on 385[135]) 1 to 3 byte instructions. 40 pins: inc. 8 data, 2x8 bit I/O ports, 5 bit ROM control. The ROM control lines are used to get memory chips to send instructions to the CPU over the 8 bit data bus. 3851 has 1024 bytes of mask programmable ROM. Describing this microprocessor immediately after the F8 is a good idea because the two products contrast well. The F8 differs more markedly from minicomputers than any other 8-bit microprocessor described in this book. SC/MP, by way of contrast, is one of the more minicomputer-like products. Within the frame of the microcomputers being described in this book, the Signetics 2650 is a very minicomputer-like device, comarable in design philosophy to the National Semiconductor products. I'm afraid it's quite difficult to transfer stuff from the book: it's a paperback, 40mm/1.5" thick, and the spine is in very poor condition. Any more questions, I'll do my best to answer, short of typing the whole book in :-). Alan. ###### From: Sam Ismail Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Fairchild F8 -- any info or computers using this Chip? Date: 9 Apr 1999 08:28:31 GMT Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service Lines: 25 Sender: Sam Ismail Message-ID: <7ekdnf$6vd$1@news.ncal.verio.com> References: <370BF567.5A111E0C@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell1.ncal.verio.com User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980117 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.6 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.ncal.verio.com!not-for-mail J. Chris Hausler wrote: > Charles Richmond writes: > >>Has anyone used an F8 in an application? Does anyone know of >>a microcomputer designed around an F8? Anyone with any F8 >>info, can you please post? > > This is from deeeeep memory but I recall two F8 "machines" > available for purchase. One was an evaluation card which > was priced about $150.00 and I believe was from Fairchild. > There was also a system box available from "Vera" or > something like that. I never investigated it because by Of course no one yet has mentioned the Fairchild Channel F video game system that I believe pre-dated the Atari 2600 (or was very close to it at any rate). -- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]