From: hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) Newsgroups: comp.ai,comp.arch,comp.robotics.misc,bionet.neuroscience,alt.folklore.computers Subject: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 9 Mar 1999 10:01:58 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> References: <36da4f67.0@news.victoria.tc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: eyry.econ.iastate.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail In article , Peter Seebach wrote: >>There ought to be a law for legalising killing of spammers, >Enthusiastic second! Now wait a minute, we can't simply kill them; that isn't sporting. Much more challenging to come up with proper procedures. Particulalry, we need to prohibit "chumming" by using decoy addresses to mailing lists & usenet. -- These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] References: <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Organization: U S West X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) From: cmikk@tig.oss.uswest.net (Chris Mikkelson) NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.147.85.37 Message-ID: <36e55239.0@news2.uswest.net> Date: 9 Mar 1999 10:54:17 +0600 X-Trace: 9 Mar 1999 10:54:17 +0600, 204.147.85.37 Lines: 22 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@uswest.net. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer1.nac.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sea-feed.news.verio.net!feed.news.verio.net!newsfeed1.uswest.net!news1.uswest.net!not-for-mail In article <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: >From article <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ>, by hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu >(Richard E. Hawkins Esq.): >> In article , >> Peter Seebach wrote: >> >>>>There ought to be a law for legalising killing of spammers, >> >>>Enthusiastic second! >> >> Now wait a minute, we can't simply kill them; that isn't sporting. >> Much more challenging to come up with proper procedures. ... > >I've always favored requiring them to read the FAQs of all the >newsgroups they've spammed, with no food or drink permitted until >they complete the reading and answer a few simple questions based >on the content of each FAQ. Or how 'bout 1kV per newsgroup or e-mail address ;-) -Chris ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 9 Mar 1999 16:24:14 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!news-feed.fnsi.net!WCG!198.6.0.215!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in2.uu.net!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From article <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ>, by hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.): > In article , > Peter Seebach wrote: > >>>There ought to be a law for legalising killing of spammers, > >>Enthusiastic second! > > Now wait a minute, we can't simply kill them; that isn't sporting. > Much more challenging to come up with proper procedures. ... I've always favored requiring them to read the FAQs of all the newsgroups they've spammed, with no food or drink permitted until they complete the reading and answer a few simple questions based on the content of each FAQ. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] References: <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Organization: Plethora . Net - More net, less spam! X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Lines: 18 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:15:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.166.146.8 X-Trace: ptah.visi.com 921003341 205.166.146.8 (Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:15:41 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:15:41 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ptah.visi.com!not-for-mail In article <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: >I've always favored requiring them to read the FAQs of all the >newsgroups they've spammed, with no food or drink permitted until >they complete the reading and answer a few simple questions based >on the content of each FAQ. It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he can Just Hit Delete. -s -- Copyright 1999, All rights reserved. Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Will work for interesting hardware. http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/ Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! ###### From: Jon Konrath Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 09 Mar 1999 16:43:56 -0800 Organization: No organization. No life. Just emacs. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.191.160.34 X-Trace: 921026688 WQINVFXUSA022CEBFC usenet54.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.38/Emacs 20.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: [Stuff about killing spammers snipped...] > > I've always favored requiring them to read the FAQs of all the > newsgroups they've spammed, with no food or drink permitted until > they complete the reading and answer a few simple questions based > on the content of each FAQ. > Not lonly would this discourage spammers, but it would encourage people to write extremely long and detailed FAQs for newsgroups... -Jon -- Jon Konrath | jkonrath@rumored.com | http://www.rumored.com ###### Date: 09 Mar 99 16:52:53 -0800 From: "Charlie Gibbs" Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) NNTP-Posting-Host: news.skybus.com X-Trace: 9 Mar 1999 18:27:29 -0800, news.skybus.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.westel.com!news.skybus.com!204.244.247.123 In article <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard) writes: >On 1999-03-09 seebs@plethora.net(PeterSeebach) said: > >:It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be >:given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages >:will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He >:just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he >:can Just Hit Delete. > >Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. Not with the newsreader we're going to give him. ;-> And make that a 300-baud modem. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 9 Mar 1999 22:51:31 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-176.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 921019891 23572 194.247.40.223 (9 Mar 1999 22:51:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 1999 22:51:31 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-03-09 seebs@plethora.net(PeterSeebach) said: :It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be :given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages :will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He :just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he :can Just Hit Delete. Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 10 Mar 1999 03:41:36 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7c4plg$q2s$2@eve.enteract.com> References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!dscheidt Charlie Gibbs wrote: : In article <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard) : writes: : >On 1999-03-09 seebs@plethora.net(PeterSeebach) said: : > : >:It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be : >:given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages : >:will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He : >:just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he : >:can Just Hit Delete. : > : >Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. : Not with the newsreader we're going to give him. ;-> : And make that a 300-baud modem. Surely we should give him an ASR-33 with a fading ribbon? David -- David Scheidt The presumption of the flamers is, I assume, that folks barging in to AFU with tired old stories and off-topic drivel have already ignored the polite and subtle clues, and require a thwack with the clue-by-four. -- Andrew Reid ###### From: stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu (Stewart Stremler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 10 Mar 1999 04:12:57 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7c4rg9$irh$1@gondor.sdsu.edu> References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rohan.sdsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!gondor!rohan!stremler Charlie Gibbs (cgibbs@sky.bus.com) wrote: > In article <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard) > writes: > >Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. > Not with the newsreader we're going to give him. ;-> > And make that a 300-baud modem. Don't forget, that's a noisy line, too. I suppose you could call it thermal noise... -- --Stewart Stremler---------------------------------stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu-- A slipping gear can let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit. -- US Army PS magazine, August 1993 ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 11:09:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7c5m3o$3l1$2@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d5.dial-22.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 10 Mar 1999 11:47:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!d5 In article <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> lisard@zetnet.co.uk (lisard) >writes: > >>On 1999-03-09 seebs@plethora.net(PeterSeebach) said: >> >>:It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be >>:given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages >>:will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He >>:just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he >>:can Just Hit Delete. >> >>Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. > >Not with the newsreader we're going to give him. ;-> >And make that a 300-baud modem. > No paper tape? I'd rather the I/O device be a TU10 for the bad days and TU78 for the good ones. Then he could do it all off-line. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 10 Mar 1999 19:25:47 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 10 Mar 1999 19:29:45 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com >>> It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be >>> given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages >>> will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He >>> just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he >>> can Just Hit Delete. >> >> Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. > > Not with the newsreader we're going to give him. ;-> > And make that a 300-baud modem. Well, since he's only going to get an ASR-33 to read the mail with, he'll actually only get 110 baud. That's assuming that he gets a terminal at all; it wasn't specified. Maybe he'll only get a big pile of ASR-33 parts and have to assemble it himself. The assembly instructions can be emailed to him. :-) By the way, a lot of email probably isn't enough. He should be given a hell of a lot, so to speak. ###### From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 10 Mar 1999 19:16:43 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7c6ger$5e3@top.mitre.org> References: <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <36e55239.0@news2.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.fas.harvard.edu!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris cmikk@tig.oss.uswest.net (Chris Mikkelson) writes: >>> Now wait a minute, we can't simply kill them; that isn't sporting. >>> Much more challenging to come up with proper procedures. ... >>I've always favored requiring them to read the FAQs of all the >>newsgroups they've spammed, with no food or drink permitted until >>they complete the reading and answer a few simple questions based >>on the content of each FAQ. >Or how 'bout 1kV per newsgroup or e-mail address ;-) The state of Virginia (home to several large ISPs, including AOL and its relatives) is currently considering legislation that would provide steep penalties for spam and similar uncivilized behavior. However...in an "Odd Couple" deal, the National Rifle Association and the ACLU are both working actively to defeat the measure. According to newspaper reports, the NRA position is that it needs to be able to spam in order to communicate its message to the public. Joe Morris ###### From: Cliff Sojourner Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:45:40 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <36E9B534.5839@cisco.com> References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: cls@cisco.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cls-pc.cisco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in3.uu.net!news-master.cisco.com!not-for-mail Eric Smith wrote: > > >>> It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be > >>> given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages > >>> will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He > >>> just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he > >>> can Just Hit Delete. > >> > >> Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. > > > > Not with the newsreader we're going to give him. ;-> > > And make that a 300-baud modem. > > Well, since he's only going to get an ASR-33 to read the mail with, he'll > actually only get 110 baud. was it the Model 26 that was 50/75 baud? -- Cliff Sojourner, Cisco Systems Inc. cls@cisco.com (408) 527-7637 170 W. Tasman Drive, SJ CA 95134 bldg H2/cube E2-7 1998 US airline passengers: 617,000,000. deaths: 0. ###### Sender: marc@dumbcat.snafu.org Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> <36E9B534.5839@cisco.com> From: Marco S Hyman Date: 12 Mar 1999 22:55:29 -0800 Message-ID: Organization: S.N.A.F.U. (www.snafu.org) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.94.187.130 X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 921308130 199 marc@204.94.187.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) writes: > > was it the Model 26 that was 50/75 baud? > > I've been trying to remember. For some reason the number 55 comes to > mind. Well a model 17/18/28/etc was rated at 60 words per minute. A standard word is 5 characters plus a space between words, so: 60 word/min == 360 char/min == 6 char/sec At 5 data bits plus start bit plus approx 1.5 stop bits per character == 45 bits/sec Encoding was one bit/baud so call it 45 baud. // marc ###### From: jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 13 Mar 1999 02:53:38 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <672.737T2680T10126133@sky.bus.com> <36E9B534.5839@cisco.com> Reply-To: jvarela@mind.spring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.45.fe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:45:40, Cliff Sojourner wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > Well, since he's only going to get an ASR-33 to read the mail with, he'll > > actually only get 110 baud. > > was it the Model 26 that was 50/75 baud? I've been trying to remember. For some reason the number 55 comes to mind. -- John Varela (delete . between mind and spring to e-mail me) ###### From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:39:10 +0100 Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx Lines: 11 Message-ID: <1dokxfo.17q5g7i1eeorcwN@n34-103.berlin.snafu.de> References: <36da4f67.0@news.victoria.tc.ca> <7c3glm$k80$1@eyry.econ> <7c3hve$jea$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: n34-103.berlin.snafu.de User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!unlisys!news.snafu.de!jnickelsen Peter Seebach wrote: > It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be given a 1200 > baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages will contain the secret > code word to let him get out of hell. I think he should be told that *perhaps* one of the messages will contain the code word, so he will eternally be reading junk e-mail. -- Juergen Nickelsen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) From: jasnider@shell1.iglou.com (Pat Larkin) NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.107.41.17 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.107.41.17 Message-ID: <36e97c6b.0@news.iglou.com> Date: 12 Mar 1999 15:43:23 -0500 X-Trace: 12 Mar 1999 15:43:23 -0500, 192.107.41.17 Lines: 19 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: news-incoming.iglou.com Organization: IgLou Internet Services, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!cyclone.swbell.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in2.uu.net!news.iglou.com!shell1!jasnider lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: >On 1999-03-09 seebs@plethora.net(PeterSeebach) said: > :It has been hypothesized that, in hell, Sanford Wallace will be > :given a 1200 baud modem, and a lot of email. One of the messages > :will contain the secret code word to let him get out of hell. He > :just has to page through the rest, and if they aren't useful, he > :can Just Hit Delete. >Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. Are you kidding? It will ALL be from Sanford Wallace! -- Pat Larkin First initial Last name At Iglou Dot Com -- ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 13 Mar 1999 21:28:52 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 21 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6ubthxcewr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <36e97c6b.0@news.iglou.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 jasnider@shell1.iglou.com (Pat Larkin) writes: > > lisard@zetnet.co.uk writes: > > >Too easy. He can filter out the mail from Sanford Wallace. > > Are you kidding? It will ALL be from Sanford Wallace! Now that is faking of messages. Bad. Far better make them all not from SW. Say all spam recieved by all usenetters for the time SW spammed (AFAIK a few years). OTOH putting all that spam together and feeding it him could be regarded as crewelty (sp?) towards the computer involved. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ uNsTable - usable = NT ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: hunting spammers [Was: Step 001 of DIY AI: ...] Date: 14 Mar 1999 09:26:59 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7cfvd3$l60$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <7c48lj$n0k$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <36e97c6b.0@news.iglou.com> <6ubthxcewr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: :> :> Are you kidding? It will ALL be from Sanford Wallace! : Now that is faking of messages. Bad. : Far better make them all not from SW. Say all spam recieved by all : usenetters for the time SW spammed (AFAIK a few years). : OTOH putting all that spam together and feeding it him could be : regarded as crewelty (sp?) towards the computer involved. Well, we don't have a choice these days anyhow. The unthinkable has apparently happened---Sanford Wallace is now opt-in only; he nukes spammers too. To quote an Australian comedian called Vince Sorrenti, "I see it, but I _don't_ believe it." Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 13 Mar 1999 18:07:41 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <7ce9hd$6d3@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <36ea9db8.58704743@news.xmission.com> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 921355248 nnrp-10:27274 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <36ea9db8.58704743@news.xmission.com>, skb@xmission.removethis.com (Scott Brown) writes: >For the record, I prefer the Unix convention for filenames -- after >hacking on FreeBSD for a while, the filename conventions on my Win95 >box seem annoying and artifically restricted. After hacking on my Unix boxes for a while, *all* the conventions on my NT box seem annoying and artifically restricted. -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: johnc@nospam.chicagonet.net (JohnC) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:43:22 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7c8oov$hvm$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> X-Trace: 921375806 DRFZCAUWF8760D1BA usenet49.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 X-Face: ?8We0esIl/(XK!npHwwJ]9CTL&0,L0\{dd$q7^MEOP!=d5}4UaJ<-f~t3SBzA 0j\Oj7U4^V*DFv&nS.AG2ytYMFD{vVjGcpYGiG,\04ZVJ(olX*IJzAc+U)BdS#P_IpK1 1zz=nBwH>21C)#t6]#x"aD*jTgS?S_VNUP36)=X6csz+Lt./0%4p8w57*)1XeFBElm9Y ||7qRf`yCGkohH4R3q8A7zQ"g Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!rQdQ!remarQ69!johnc In article , thvv@multicians.org (Tom Van Vleck) wrote: >Douglas W. Jones wrote: > >> We also had some Teletype ink-jet printers that could print at 1200 baud. >> This seemed incredibly fast, but I don't remember them doing lower case, >> nor do I remember the model number. I remeber them with loathing! The >> ink was very viscous; each dot deposited on the paper had a little tail, >> and when they had problems, they could deliver a dollop of the stuff >> onto the paper that seemed able to spread over your hands, clothing and >> papers forever. > >I remember a device like this in the Project MAC machine room >in about 1967. It was called a Teletype "Inktronic" terminal. >120 chars per second, friction fed, and quiet: the only sound >was the thip thip of paper advancing one line at a time. It was >an uppercase-only device with rather small type. Nozzle clogs, >paper misfeeds, and smearing were common problems, but people >stood in line to use it. Was this the design that used magnetic particles in suspension in the ink to allow the nozzle stream to be modulated? -- JohnC | queer person | johnc@chicagonet.net | ICQ 8543232 ###### Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:53:16 -0800 From: thvv@multicians.org (Tom Van Vleck) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Message-ID: References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7c8oov$hvm$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Organization: Multicians X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.1 X-url: http://www.multicians.org/ Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: thvv.vip.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 921383593 213 206.86.18.21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail JohnC wrote: > Was this the design that used magnetic particles in suspension in the ink > to allow the nozzle stream to be modulated? Can't remember. I believe that the ink was sprayed somehow, and that the flow was diverted into a "gutter" in some cases where it wasn't supposed to reach the paper. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:15:31 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 27 Message-ID: <36EAC763.146855DF@plano.net> References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 921377467 R67V8VHUD2904D12CC usenet78.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!rQdQ!remarQ69!not-for-mail Peter Seebach wrote: > > In article <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Elliott wrote: > >I can't but believe that the saving incurred by failing to make Unix case > >insensitive has been dwarfed by the expense of finding and correcting errors > >caused by not having done so. > > Except that, frankly, I consider it a big feature that it's case sensitive. > I *like* this. I've even seen it used, intentionally, to allow for clever > tricks. > I too like case sensitivity. Since C is case sensative, why not the operating system? However, if case sensitivity causes a problem for some, what about file names made up either partially or entirely out of *invisible* characters? Occasionally while exiting vi with a :w, I have saved files that have the name of character. That is a single character with the value 0x7f. I have also had the misfortune in the past to name files with embedded backspace characters or having some control character as the last character in the file. These files show up when selected with a wildcard character, but refuse to be deleted by normal methods. It's lucky that UNIX has the -b option for directories which shows non-graphic characters as an octal sequence. Still, it is difficult to deal with these files. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Lines: 9 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:19:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.212.106.44 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 921356365 141.212.106.44 (Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:19:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:19:25 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit In article <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk>, Hugh Davies wrote: >On a Windoze box, it doesn't matter, since you cannot create >three files anyway. ...before it blue-screens, you mean? -- Sergej Roytman ###### From: nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 13 Mar 1999 20:46:50 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland OH (USA) Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <36ea9db8.58704743@news.xmission.com> Reply-To: nxk3@po.cwru.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: yukon.scl.cwru.edu X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.fnsi.net!nntp.msen.com!usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu!nxk3 On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:24:58 GMT, Scott Brown wrote: > What about Unices that use something other than ASCII collating order? > Did any of them use EBCDIC? OS/390 Unix uses EBCDIC. It uses something close to the ISO 8859-1 collating sequence, modulo characters not in EBCDIC (well, code page 1047). ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 13 Mar 1999 22:46:14 -0500 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 58 Message-ID: <7cfbe6$288@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1999Mar12.233316.19600@lorelei.approve.se> <7cdmhv$qtk$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!146.186.149.193!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail In article <7cdmhv$qtk$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, wrote: >In article <1999Mar12.233316.19600@lorelei.approve.se>, > hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL (Goran Larsson) wrote: >>Having a file system with case insesitivity is a major problem for >>filenames with non ASCII characters. > >Oh, it is not. We allowed such characters (although one >had to be clever to do it). > >> There is no simple algorithm that >>can translate all characters between upper and lower case. > >Yes, there is. It's called SIXBIT. The filename is established >at creation time and stored that way. SIXBIT? And what about situations when one has ASCII and cyrillic? Or one of the extended ASCII variants? Mapping between upper- and lowercase versions of the 'same' letter depends on the encoding. Suppose that in ISO-FOO 357 octal stands for blergh-small and 214 for blergh-big. In ISO-BAR 357 is fred-big, 214 doesn't correspond to any letter (say it, is a inverted question sign) and fred-small happens to be 243. Your actions (besides of grabbing a barf-bag, that is)? And I'm not making that up. The situation is extremely nasty and there are tens of different encodings. All of them share the 32-126 range and usually are sane enough to leave 0-31 and 127 alone. The rest is the bloody mess. Now, assigning a language to filesystem is more than bad idea - consider the situation when people have homedirs on the same disk and one of them works from Spain and another from Finland. Both want to have their file names working. So it's more or less bearable on a local bitty-box, but not on a system that allows any form of remote login. BTW, SIXBIT will be simply not enough for 26 latin letters + 10 digits + 33 cyrillic. OK, you can glue two forms of cyrillic 'e'. Not a big win. You can glue letters looking same way in cyrillic and latin parts. And get all sorts of nastiness. E.g. R-cyrillic looks like P, S-cyrillic looks like C. Good luck crufting up *any* reasonable sorting (since both alphabets are modified Greek alphabet the ordering is kinda-sorta same. Letterforms are *not* same, though). Been there, hated that. There was a moderately sane encoding for cyrillic. It preserved the ordering and was kind enough to avoid 128..128+31 range. After a while it became KOI-8. Fine. Now, the thing with standards being that there always is another one. In this case - phonetical encoding. Order goes south, but it had the nice property: if you had stripped the 8th bit you got readable text in ASCII. But it used the codes that Infernal But Marketable decided to use for pseudo-graphics in PC. Thus on PCs half of "full-screen" DOS programs generated unfsckingbelievable mess. Gee, let's reshuffle the thing. 3/4 went to 200..257, 1/4 - to 340..357. "Alternative" encoding, my ass... Now, some bright boy in MS decided that having two different encodings is *bad* idea. And lo! There appeared the third one, incompatible with both. Did I mention that there are cyrillic EBCDICs? And all sorts of braindead schemes trying to crump both alphabets to 7-bit set. And to 6-bit one... Bastards... Damn 'em, damn those who kludged Greek into Cyrillic, damn those who kludged Greek into Latin, damn those who kludged the Phoenician into Greek - *fscking* *none* *of* *them* cared to do it clean way! -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:49:23 -0500 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!netnews.com!europa.clark.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone.rr.com!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 On 13 Mar 1999, Hugh Davies wrote: > In article <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >In article <7cdhrq$648@axalotl.demon.co.uk>, > > huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) wrote: > >>In article <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Elliott > >writes: > >> > >>>I can't but believe that the saving incurred by failing to make Unix case > >>>insensitive has been dwarfed by the expense of finding and correcting > >>>errors > >>>caused by not having done so. > >> > >>"failing"?? Case sensitivity is not a failure. O/S's that do things other > >>than what I asked for, like Zip and zip being the same file, have failed. > >> > >How does it sort? What's the sorting order of Zip.foo, zip.foo and > >zip.Foo > > Where? On a Unix box? > > axalotl{huge}53: ls > Zip.foo zip.Foo zip.foo > axalotl{huge}54: ls -l > total 0 > -rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 Zip.foo > -rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.Foo > -rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.foo > > On a Windoze box, it doesn't matter, since you cannot create > three files anyway. Actually you *can*. Well, sort of. Say you have two files zip.foo and Zip.bar. Also say that you have "Hide extensions for types that are registered" checked and that *.foo and *.bar are registered types. Then you'll see files named zip and Zip in your Explorer window. Even worse, if you have zip.foo and zip.bar then you'll see two files with the exact same name. Further if *.foo files and *.bar files are both mapped to the same icon they will be completely indistinguishable unless you sort by name or extension and even then your only clue is the order they are listed in. Every time MS tries to make things simpler they just make them harder. ____________________________________________________________________________ | "A little nonsense now and then, | "If it walks out of the fridge, let Is relished by the wisest men." | it go" -- John Dougherty --W.W. | "If it loves you it will come back." | -- Ian Davis __________________________________|_________________________________________ Theta Xi Kappa Sigma ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:53:57 -0500 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <36ea9db8.58704743@news.xmission.com> <7ce9hd$6d3@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <7ce9hd$6d3@axalotl.demon.co.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone.rr.com!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 On 13 Mar 1999, Hugh Davies wrote: > In article <36ea9db8.58704743@news.xmission.com>, skb@xmission.removethis.com (Scott Brown) writes: > > >For the record, I prefer the Unix convention for filenames -- after > >hacking on FreeBSD for a while, the filename conventions on my Win95 > >box seem annoying and artifically restricted. > > After hacking on my Unix boxes for a while, *all* the conventions on my > NT box seem annoying and artifically restricted. This is a prime example of what happens when you take a Quick and Dirty Operating System that was written with *no* foresight and then try to continuously improve it while also keeping everything that was in the original for backwards compatibility. An interesting theory that has been raised is that somewhere in Windows 98 there lurks the exact original code for DOS 1 and Windows 1 and that somewhere on a Pentium III still lurks the original silicon for an 8088 (or even worse an 8080). ____________________________________________________________________________ | "A little nonsense now and then, | "If it walks out of the fridge, let Is relished by the wisest men." | it go" -- John Dougherty --W.W. | "If it loves you it will come back." | -- Ian Davis __________________________________|_________________________________________ Theta Xi Kappa Sigma ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:05 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: <7cf05t$653$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <1999Mar12.233316.19600@lorelei.approve.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-108.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 921371645 6307 194.247.40.138 (14 Mar 1999 00:34:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:05 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-03-13 hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL(GoranLarsson) said: :What errors has been caused by the case sensitivity of Unix? :Having a file system with case insesitivity is a major problem for :filenames with non ASCII characters. There is no simple algorithm :that can translate all characters between upper and lower case. :Some lower case characters doesn't have a upper case equivalent or :translate into several upper case characters. Some lower case :characters will translate into the same upper case character and :can't be translated back. Some characters translations are language :dependant. What a mess. The creators of Unix made the right choice. I see what you mean, but for personal use I would much prefer to not have case-sensitivity. But then, English is my first and only language. Perhaps it's something that should be togglable, so that if you're using English (or some other language with similar properties) you can get the advantages of not having to remember case, but if you need the case you can have it. But as for algorithms, the problem is not difficult to partially solve. Use two lookup tables, one for each direction, which exclude cases having multiple mappings; store the exact case of the filename as entered on creation; and use the appropriate tables to translate case where it differs from the given name. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:07 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7cf05v$653$3@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <7cdmhv$qtk$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-108.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 921371647 6307 194.247.40.138 (14 Mar 1999 00:34:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:07 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-03-13 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: :> There is no simple algorithm that :>can translate all characters between upper and lower case. :Yes, there is. It's called SIXBIT. The filename is established :at creation time and stored that way. As I understand it, SIXBIT would have trouble with non-English alphabets, which is where the translation problems would occur. Kanji, anyone? ;> -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:10 GMT Lines: 9 Message-ID: <7cf062$653$4@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-108.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 921371650 6307 194.247.40.138 (14 Mar 1999 00:34:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:10 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-03-13 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: :How does it sort? What's the sorting order of Zip.foo, zip.foo and :zip.Foo In Unix, it's 'Zip.foo zip.Foo zip.foo'. Strict ASCII, in other words. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:11 GMT Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7cf063$653$5@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <7cdhrq$648@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-108.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 921371651 6307 194.247.40.138 (14 Mar 1999 00:34:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 1999 00:34:11 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-03-13 huge@nospam.demon.co.uk said: :"failing"?? Case sensitivity is not a failure. O/S's that do things :other than what I asked for, like Zip and zip being the same file, :have failed. Oh, cool, another jihad! I like these. Much, much more than I disklike case sensitivity. ;> -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing cat [Rr][Ee][Pp][Ll][Yy] > /dev/nul ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 02:52:40 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 24 Message-ID: <7cf89o$pec$1@eve.enteract.com> References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36EAC763.146855DF@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!dscheidt Charles Richmond wrote: : I too like case sensitivity. Since C is case sensative, why not the operating : system? However, if case sensitivity causes a problem for some, what about : also had the misfortune in the past to name files with embedded backspace characters : or having some control character as the last character in the file. These files : show up when selected with a wildcard character, but refuse to be deleted by : normal methods. It's lucky that UNIX has the -b option for directories which : shows non-graphic characters as an octal sequence. Still, it is difficult to : deal with these files. tumbolia 1352$ ls -i 11324 f?oo tumbolia 1353$ find . -inum 11324 -exec mv {} foo \; tumbolia 1354$ ls -i 11324 foo Works for me. David -- dscheidt@enteract.com Folklore has a long memory, and not much concern for the facts. --John West ###### From: "AndyC" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 05:45:43 -0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7cfiil$7t2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <7cdmhv$qtk$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cf05v$653$3@roch.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak6d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote in message <7cf05v$653$3@roch.zetnet.co.uk>... : :As I understand it, SIXBIT would have trouble with non-English :alphabets, which is where the translation problems would occur. Kanji, :anyone? ;> Surely it isn't *that* much of a problem though. Provided you use a consistant method of mapping characters for internal use and then have the case sensitive original for display purposes it won't matter if a character has an odd internal representation. In much the same way that win95 butchers all it's filenames to toolon~1 or whatever (except you'd *never* see it like that). AndyC ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:17:25 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies Lines: 11 Message-ID: <36EB6285.145C@bell-labs.com> References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7c8oov$hvm$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news JohnC asked: > Was this the design that used magnetic particles in suspension in the ink > to allow the nozzle stream to be modulated? > I would strongly suspect electrostatic: charge the ink particles, deflect with electric fields. Even Teletype didn't have magnetic monopoles. Dennis ###### From: cwr@cts.com (Will Rose) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 09:28:03 GMT Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7cfvf3$gdd$1@nusku.cts.com> References: <36ea9db8.58704743@news.xmission.com> <7ce9hd$6d3@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: crash-i2.cts.com X-Trace: nusku.cts.com 921403683 16813 205.163.0.7 (14 Mar 1999 09:28:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nusku.cts.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 1999 09:28:03 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp2.cerf.net!mercury.cts.com!nusku.cts.com!not-for-mail lee1089@kettering.edu wrote: [...] : This is a prime example of what happens when you take a Quick and Dirty : Operating System that was written with *no* foresight and then try to : continuously improve it while also keeping everything that was in the Actually NT was a rewrite from scratch, so there's even less excuse. : original for backwards compatibility. An interesting theory that has been : raised is that somewhere in Windows 98 there lurks the exact original code : for DOS 1 and Windows 1 and that somewhere on a Pentium III still lurks : the original silicon for an 8088 (or even worse an 8080). 4004? How many transistors did that have? You could probably stick a few of them into unused corners of the mask and not even notice... Will cwr@crash.cts.com ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:07:00 -0500 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7cgi6f$aui$1@news.igs.net> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <7cgbqg$8nm$3@ligarius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye15.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 921422863 11218 216.58.117.149 (14 Mar 1999 14:47:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 1999 14:47:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.230!prairie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message >That's exactly my point. Sorting shouldn't and must not be >specific to the operating system. I agree. However, it *should* be specific to the human language of the operator rather than to the idiosynchracies of the programer writing it, or the computer it is running on. I program applications. That is, the code is written for people, not for an abstract idea, not for my own ego, not for the sake of the computer. I find systems that do not cater to my needs annoying, and systems programmers that decide my needs unimportant just as annoying. There is a fine line between maintaining "purity" of code, and deciding that the specification should be re-written to match what the code actually does. I find that Unix, as an OS, too often follows the later course. ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:38:41 -0400 Organization: Trailing Edge Technology Lines: 27 Message-ID: <36EB91B1.7327DA6B@trailing-edge.com> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <7cgbqg$8nm$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cgi6f$aui$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: trailing-edge.wdn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.epix.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!usenet Donald Tees wrote: > There is a fine line between maintaining "purity" of code, and deciding that > the specification should be re-written to match what the code actually does. > I find that Unix, as an OS, too often follows the later course. Don't blame Unix - blame the folks who've decided that it is the operating system of the future, even though all of the Unix limitations were decided in the early 70's. Imagine any feature that one would reasonably expect to be in a full-feature multi-user operating system. Now try to fit these features on the minicomputers of the early 70's that Unix was developed on. They don't fit easily there, so Unix doesn't have these features. This is reasonable - if you're using computers from the early 70's, and if you're lazy and don't want to go to the effort to provide anything but bare-bones force-the-user-to-conform-to- what's-easy-to-program-a-PDP-11-to-do. (The fact that much more powerful OS's than Unix were later developed for the PDP-11 show that if the OS designers actually apply a bit of effort, you can get a quality OS out.) What isn't reasonable is to limit the usability of modern computers to what some folks got a PDP-9 or a PDP-11 to do in the early 1970's when they couldn't afford to go out and buy a real OS. Tim. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 12:17:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7cgbju$8nm$2@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <1999Mar12.233316.19600@lorelei.approve.se> <7cf05t$653$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Mar 1999 12:55:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d11 In article <7cf05t$653$2@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > >On 1999-03-13 hoh@approve.se.NO_JUNK_EMAIL(GoranLarsson) said: > :What errors has been caused by the case sensitivity of Unix? > :Having a file system with case insesitivity is a major problem for > :filenames with non ASCII characters. There is no simple algorithm > :that can translate all characters between upper and lower case. > :Some lower case characters doesn't have a upper case equivalent or > :translate into several upper case characters. Some lower case > :characters will translate into the same upper case character and > :can't be translated back. Some characters translations are language > :dependant. What a mess. The creators of Unix made the right choice. > >I see what you mean, but for personal use I would much prefer to not >have case-sensitivity. But then, English is my first and only language. >Perhaps it's something that should be togglable, so that if you're using >English (or some other language with similar properties) you can get the >advantages of not having to remember case, but if you need the case you >can have it. > >But as for algorithms, the problem is not difficult to partially solve. >Use two lookup tables, one for each direction, which exclude cases >having multiple mappings; store the exact case of the filename as >entered on creation; and use the appropriate tables to translate case >where it differs from the given name. And how do you ship files? Do you insist that your customer pick the same convention as you do? How do you communicate the preference in bits? Do you give your customer a choice? Note that I'm defining customer as anybody who receives and may want to use your bits. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 12:21:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <7cgbqg$8nm$3@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Mar 1999 12:58:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d11 In article <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk>, huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) wrote: >In article <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>In article <7cdhrq$648@axalotl.demon.co.uk>, >> huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) wrote: >>>In article <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Elliott >>writes: >>> >>>>I can't but believe that the saving incurred by failing to make Unix case >>>>insensitive has been dwarfed by the expense of finding and correcting >>>>errors >>>>caused by not having done so. >>> >>>"failing"?? Case sensitivity is not a failure. O/S's that do things other >>>than what I asked for, like Zip and zip being the same file, have failed. >>> >>How does it sort? What's the sorting order of Zip.foo, zip.foo and >>zip.Foo > >Where? On a Unix box? That's exactly my point. Sorting shouldn't and must not be specific to the operating system. > >axalotl{huge}53: ls >Zip.foo zip.Foo zip.foo >axalotl{huge}54: ls -l >total 0 >-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 Zip.foo >-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.Foo >-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.foo > >On a Windoze box, it doesn't matter, since you cannot create >three files anyway. > Oh, is that why I'm having problems with this system. I want to create another file and the OS has already taken up two slots for boot time. [This is a joke, son :-)]. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 12:24:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7cgc06$8nm$4@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Mar 1999 13:01:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d11 In article , Eivind wrote: >On 13 Mar 1999, Hugh Davies wrote: > >>Where? On a Unix box? > >>axalotl{huge}54: ls -l >>total 0 >>-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 Zip.foo >>-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.Foo >>-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.foo > >Yeah. And that's sensible. I'm not sure I like: > >$ ls -l >total 0 >-rw------- 1 db96ek hstud10 0 mar 13 17:46 Zip.foo >-rw------- 1 db96ek hstud10 0 mar 13 17:47 bar.foo >-rw------- 1 db96ek hstud10 0 mar 13 17:46 zip.foo > >I'd prefer sorting Z before z rather than sorting [A-Z] before [a-z] Ahem...I hadn't realized that people don't agree on sorts [absolutely astounded emoticon here]. > >Still, that's not really a filesystem issue. How do you figure? I sorted filesystems all the time. If one ships on unit record media, alphabetical is very, very useful. It gives the bit reader some idea of which tape to mount. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 12:24:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7cgc06$8nm$4@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d11.dial-11.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Mar 1999 13:01:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d11 In article , Eivind wrote: >On 13 Mar 1999, Hugh Davies wrote: > >>Where? On a Unix box? > >>axalotl{huge}54: ls -l >>total 0 >>-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 Zip.foo >>-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.Foo >>-rw-r--r-- 1 huge 0 Mar 13 14:05 zip.foo > >Yeah. And that's sensible. I'm not sure I like: > >$ ls -l >total 0 >-rw------- 1 db96ek hstud10 0 mar 13 17:46 Zip.foo >-rw------- 1 db96ek hstud10 0 mar 13 17:47 bar.foo >-rw------- 1 db96ek hstud10 0 mar 13 17:46 zip.foo > >I'd prefer sorting Z before z rather than sorting [A-Z] before [a-z] Ahem...I hadn't realized that people don't agree on sorts [absolutely astounded emoticon here]. > >Still, that's not really a filesystem issue. How do you figure? I sorted filesystems all the time. If one ships on unit record media, alphabetical is very, very useful. It gives the bit reader some idea of which tape to mount. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 13:57:40 -0500 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 45 Message-ID: <7ch0r4$2hd@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <7cgbqg$8nm$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cgi6f$aui$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!146.186.149.193!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail In article <7cgi6f$aui$1@news.igs.net>, Donald Tees wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message > >>That's exactly my point. Sorting shouldn't and must not be >>specific to the operating system. > > >I agree. However, it *should* be specific to the human language of the >operator rather than to the idiosynchracies of the programer writing it, or >the computer it is running on. So? Clean solution being to keep it in userland (along with the month names, monetary formats, week names, collation information, etc.) It's done - locales are exactly that. And locales settings belong to process, not to the kernel. Thus you can have them set basing on your native language, preferences, etc. and not affect other users. And yes, upper/lower-case stuff in userland is language-dependent. toupper() does what it should do if you have called setlocale() and set the language. The point being: filesystem is shared between all processes. I.e. it should use common settings. Ordering *is* changeable pretty easy - create the locale definition (i.e. take the existing one and edit the collate part) and run localedef. BFD. Once you've done it put export LC_COLLATE=name_I_gave_to_my_tweaked_variant into .profile and enjoy. Indeed it depends on programmers *not* comparing ASCII codes of characters, but the same is true for any scheme. Kernel can't and shouldn't base on the settings of one user when it makes decisions visible to other users. Period. Yes, there are kernel messages. Keep them in English, then - have a pity to kernel developers who would otherwise have to decypher a kernel messages translated to interesting languages. >I program applications. That is, the code is written for people, not for an >abstract idea, not for my own ego, not for the sake of the computer. I find >systems that do not cater to my needs annoying, and systems programmers that >decide my needs unimportant just as annoying. And how do you find systems that cater to the needs of the author of program that was launched 3 minutes before your one? Oh, they should switch to your settings? Good. Then - to needs of author of program launched 3 minutes *after* your one. Damn "all world is glorified CP/M" attitude... -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 14:01:41 -0500 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7ch12l$2ht@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <7cgjhh$r5p$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cgtrc$7lm@axalotl.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!146.186.149.193!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail In article <7cgtrc$7lm@axalotl.demon.co.uk>, Hugh Davies wrote: >In article <7cgjhh$r5p$8@ligarius.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>No, no, no, no, no. [excited emoticon here hearing something awful] >>Sorting should be a standard no matter what the human says. > >Rubbish. What if the AE digraph sorts in one place in one country and >in another in another? Are you going to explain to the inhabitants >of Finland that it's wrong because it's right in Sweden? Could somebody explain WTF kernel could use any user-visible sorting for? Ordering in userland is trivially settable on per-user basis. -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 14:27:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7cgj6p$r5p$7@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <7cdmhv$qtk$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cf05v$653$3@roch.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d16.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Mar 1999 15:04:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!news.ultranet.com!d16 In article <7cf05v$653$3@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > >On 1999-03-13 jmfbahciv@aol.com said: > :> There is no simple algorithm that > :>can translate all characters between upper and lower case. > > :Yes, there is. It's called SIXBIT. The filename is established > :at creation time and stored that way. > >As I understand it, SIXBIT would have trouble with non-English >alphabets, which is where the translation problems would occur. Kanji, >anyone? ;> Only if you want the files named with another alphabet. (Alexander, I'll get to your post probably tomorrow. We thought about what your complaint.) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 14:32:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <7cgjhh$r5p$8@ligarius.ultra.net> References: <7cdmld$qtk$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cdrc7$68g@axalotl.demon.co.uk> <7cgbqg$8nm$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <7cgi6f$aui$1@news.igs.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d16.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 14 Mar 1999 15:10:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d16 In article <7cgi6f$aui$1@news.igs.net>, "Donald Tees" wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message > >>That's exactly my point. Sorting shouldn't and must not be >>specific to the operating system. > > >I agree. However, it *should* be specific to the human language of the >operator rather than to the idiosynchracies of the programer writing it, >or the computer it is running on. No, no, no, no, no. [excited emoticon here hearing something awful] Sorting should be a standard no matter what the human says. That ensures reliable and consistent data processing. You guys aren't really implementing decisions based on the phase of the moon, are you? AWWWWPPP! > >I program applications. That is, the code is written for >people, not for an abstract idea, not for my own ego, not >for the sake of the computer. No, applications are written so that people can get something done. >I find systems that do not cater to my needs annoying, >and systems programmers that >decide my needs unimportant just as annoying. > >There is a fine line between maintaining "purity" of code, >and deciding that the specification should be re-written to >match what the code actually does. Huh? Aren't you confused? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 18:04:29 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <7cgtnd$7lm@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <36EB91B1.7327DA6B@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 921436007 nnrp-07:5262 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.clark.net!195.173.173.151!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <36EB91B1.7327DA6B@trailing-edge.com>, Tim Shoppa writes: >What isn't reasonable is to limit the usability of modern >computers to what some folks got a PDP-9 or a PDP-11 to do in the >early 1970's when they couldn't afford to go out and buy a real >OS. Quite so. Could you now point at one of these "real OS's"? I'd love to see one. -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: 14 Mar 1999 18:06:36 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <7cgtrc$7lm@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <7cgjhh$r5p$8@ligarius.ultra.net> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 921436008 nnrp-07:5262 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <7cgjhh$r5p$8@ligarius.ultra.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >No, no, no, no, no. [excited emoticon here hearing something awful] >Sorting should be a standard no matter what the human says. Rubbish. What if the AE digraph sorts in one place in one country and in another in another? Are you going to explain to the inhabitants of Finland that it's wrong because it's right in Sweden? -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me]