From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:51:25 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 14 Message-ID: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp02.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 918960685 27986 166.102.185.3 (14 Feb 1999 02:51:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 1999 02:51:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail OK Folks, the recent threads about "Old Timers" and "Old Computers" provoked some serious research on my part. It seems that pre-Eniac machines have been given short shift in the history and folklore of computing; particularly the excellent machines constructed by George Stibitz at Bell Labs in the late 1930's and early 1940's. Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any survive? Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:30:57 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 57 Message-ID: <36C65F91.684C@alltel.net> References: <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp61.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 918970241 29641 166.102.185.62 (14 Feb 1999 05:30:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 1999 05:30:41 GMT To: Lisa or Jeff X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Lisa or Jeff wrote: > > > Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other > > relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any > > survive? > > IBM built the Harvard Mark I (ASCC) and its own SSEC which > were programmable machines. IBM's own version was quite powerful, > and included some high speed electronic internal logic. From what > I've read it was quite sophisticated, but apparently was nearly > obsolete as soon as it was built because it was mostly relay, not > electronic. It seems to me that since it was programmable one > could set up a complex program and let it run--it would still be > far faster than people banging away at calculating machines. > > The most significant calculating machine in wide use was IBM's 604 > calculator, known as a "poor man's computer". While not a computer, > it could handle a lot of calculations on factors fed to it. In 1948, > when it came out, true computers were and would remain extremely rare > and very expensive for years to come. The 604 filled a desperate need > for low cost calculations. IBM coupled it with some auxillary memory > for the "Card Programmed Calculator", widely used in the new aircraft > industry for calculations to meet defense needs. > > The 604 was preceded by the IBM 600 multiplier, which used relays to > multiply factors. > > The IBM 405 tabulator/accounting machine, introduced in the 1930s, > could produce sophisticated business reports. With fancy programming, > it could be used for scientific calculations too and was during the war. Thanks for the prompt reply. I'm thinking of the slightly more obscure (and original) machines that might have existed. Aiken himself made the point that the technology of the Harvard Mark-1 was secondary to the application. In fact, he had approached NCR about building an entirely mechanical computer. The IBM accounting machines and the 600 series of multipliers were certainly an advancement to the state of the art, but when compared to the versitility of later Bell/Stibitz machines it's like a hardware RPG versus FORTRAN. The use of special "Hunter Circuits" to implement paper-tape function tables; hardware interpolation of trancendental functions; primitive looping controls and subroutines; microcode; multiple terminals; teleprocessing; all these 'modern' concepts made it into some very _basic_ electromechanical computers. I've seen the remains of some very complex relay logic (mostly pre-ESS telephone switches and elevator controls), I'm wondering just how far the state of the art went. Personally, I wonder if we would have been farther ahead without ENIAC. Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 14 Feb 1999 04:03:08 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root > Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other > relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any > survive? IBM built the Harvard Mark I (ASCC) and its own SSEC which were programmable machines. IBM's own version was quite powerful, and included some high speed electronic internal logic. From what I've read it was quite sophisticated, but apparently was nearly obsolete as soon as it was built because it was mostly relay, not electronic. It seems to me that since it was programmable one could set up a complex program and let it run--it would still be far faster than people banging away at calculating machines. The most significant calculating machine in wide use was IBM's 604 calculator, known as a "poor man's computer". While not a computer, it could handle a lot of calculations on factors fed to it. In 1948, when it came out, true computers were and would remain extremely rare and very expensive for years to come. The 604 filled a desperate need for low cost calculations. IBM coupled it with some auxillary memory for the "Card Programmed Calculator", widely used in the new aircraft industry for calculations to meet defense needs. The 604 was preceded by the IBM 600 multiplier, which used relays to multiply factors. The IBM 405 tabulator/accounting machine, introduced in the 1930s, could produce sophisticated business reports. With fancy programming, it could be used for scientific calculations too and was during the war. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:53:31 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 24 Message-ID: <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.97 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 918989380 R67V8VHUD2961D12CC usenet57.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) To: p98mccabe@alltel.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail Micheal H. McCabe wrote: > > OK Folks, the recent threads about "Old Timers" and "Old Computers" > provoked some serious research on my part. > > It seems that pre-Eniac machines have been given short shift in the > history and folklore of computing; particularly the excellent machines > constructed by George Stibitz at Bell Labs in the late 1930's and early > 1940's. > > Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other > relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any > survive? > How about the ABC (Atanasoff-Berry Computer) from Iowa? I believe it was done in the 1930's. The main memory was made of capacitors on a rotating drum. This has been called the first Dynamic RAM. (No kidding!!!) It also used binary arithmetic. This was the computer and inventor used to invalidate the Echert-Mauchly computer patents. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:54:08 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 70 Message-ID: <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: p-898.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Charles Richmond wrote: > The main memory was made of capacitors on a rotating drum. > This has been called the first Dynamic RAM. (No kidding!!!) I have seen such a memory system myself. My first job, from 1950 to 1954 was with Cable & Wireless working on the cable side. It wasn't until 1955 that I laid hands on a computer. The signalling system we used was called Cable Code; the code itself was in fact Morse but instead of being sent as binary with dots and dashes being long and short pulses it was a three position code - dots and dashes were the same length but of opposite polarity. This lent itself rather better to synchronous working. On a long cable circuit such as London to Capetown there were relay stations at a number of points en route where the individual cables came ashore. It was landline to Porthcurno near Land's End in Cornwall, then cable to Fayal in the Azores, St. Vincent in the Cape Verde Islands, Ascension, St. Helena and finally Capetown. The signals were regenerated at each station, each of which had a master clock controlling a vibrating reed providing a 30 cps supply to the driving motors of the synchroniser which worked off the incoming signals to control the speed of the regenerator which sent on a nice clean signal to the next leg. From London to Ascension a signal for Buenos Aires was piggy-backed onto the Capetown traffic, two beats for BA to three to CP. At Ascension these were split off and reshaped to send to the two separate onward cables. So far so good, but on the return path there was a problem in that the speed of signals coming from BA and CP originated from different master clocks so some sort of loose link had to be established. This was done by having a pair of large commutators consisting of ebonite disks about 18 inches in diameter with many brass studs on them. The corresponding studs on each were connected together to capacitors (actually we called them condensers in those days!). The studs were in pairs, one for dots the other for dashes. The brushes feeding charge into the capacitors were controlled by the synchroniser working off the BA signal and the ones on the other disk which were discharging the capacitors by picking relays were controlled by the synchroniser driven by the CP signal. The extracted signal could now be merged with the CP traffic - the ratio on the homeward leg was 1 BA to 2 CP. The system stored a maximum of about 3 seconds worth of traffic at the speed the BA cable worked IIRC. The master clocks (Synchronome pendulum clocks) were good to a second or two a day so it was only necessary to resynch the system once or twice a day. In fact there was a duplicate set which was set up to the optimum position and then traffic switched from one to the other during a routine balance pause when the duplex balances on all the cables in the chain were being checked. Now to the best of my knowledge this system dated from the late '20s or very early '30s. I wonder if Atanasoff or Berry were aware of it since it seems identical in principle to what you describe. They may very likely not have been since it was probably proprietary technology to C & W and I believe Ascension was the only station at which it was used. A similar system was used on long radio circuits but with a single disk and two sets of brushes set 2.5 seconds apart. In this case when transmission conditions were good two separate channels were used but when they deteriorated channel B was shut down and one of these devices was used at each end. At the sending end the signal was sent as normal on channel A and simultaneously stored on the capacitors and 2.5 seconds later sent again on channel B. At the receiving end A was stored and waited for B to catch up. Dropouts in one would have a good chance of being picked up in the other. This I think originated in the '40s. -- Nick Spalding ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:15:29 GMT Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.magicnet.net!bill In article <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com>, Lisa or Jeff wrote: >> Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other >> relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any >> survive? >IBM built the Harvard Mark I (ASCC) and its own SSEC which >were programmable machines. IBM's own version was quite powerful, >and included some high speed electronic internal logic. From what >I've read it was quite sophisticated, but apparently was nearly >obsolete as soon as it was built because it was mostly relay, not >electronic. ... For an interesting look at how computers were over 50 years ago, take a look at "The Moore School Lectures" - by MIT press - from the Babbage series on historical computing. Most of the set is out of print, but many libraries should have one. This was the first computer course ever taught. Lecturers included Mauchly, Eckert, Von Neumann. The class of 28 invited students also included Claude Shannon who would later become known for his information theory. There were several lectures on electonic tube circuits, including design of the circuits. This section of the lectures was showing the audience the advantage of tubes vs relays. One of the biggest reasons was the increase in speed of cycles from 1/10th of a second to 1/5000ths of a second. ISTR there is also a page with the complete instructions set for one of the early machine - just about 20 commands overall. Interesting reading for computer history buffs or those just curious. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### Message-ID: <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> From: Max F Lang Reply-To: mflang@bellsouth.net Organization: Home Computing X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:26:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: host-209-214-35-229.mco.bellsouth.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:26:11 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl!upstream.atl!news4.mco.POSTED!not-for-mail Nick Spalding wrote: > On a long cable circuit such as London to > Capetown there were relay stations at a number of points en route > where the individual cables came ashore. It was landline to > Porthcurno near Land's End in Cornwall, then cable to Fayal in the > Azores, St. Vincent in the Cape Verde Islands, Ascension, St. Helena > and finally Capetown. The signals were regenerated at each station, > each of which had a master clock controlling a vibrating reed > providing a 30 cps supply to the driving motors of the synchroniser > which worked off the incoming signals to control the speed of the > regenerator which sent on a nice clean signal to the next leg. From > London to Ascension a signal for Buenos Aires was piggy-backed onto > the Capetown traffic, two beats for BA to three to CP. Your very nice description got me to thinking: how much the hell cable is -still- sitting there on the ocean floor?! Has it been pulled up and recycled, or when such cable systems were abandoned were the cables just cut and left at the bottom of the drink? That sure does seem to be a lot of cable to make and then just forget about... And what were the specs on such a cable: big stuff? - little stuff? - type of insulation? MFLang (newbie in a.f.c - only been here three years...) ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 14 Feb 1999 16:26:48 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 46 Message-ID: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root > I've seen the remains of some very complex relay logic (mostly pre-ESS > telephone switches and elevator controls), I'm wondering just how far > the state of the art went. Telephone switching remained all relay for years and reached a very high degree of sophistication. Initially, dial telephone switches were direct control--each dial pull caused selectors to directly (the "step by step" system, and some units remain in use today.) But in cities, the Bell System realized this wasn't adequate and developed common control systems, such as "panel" and later "crossbar". The dialed number was stored in registers, and a control unit directed other switchgear. After WW II they established direct dialing for long distance calls nationwide. The relay equipment handled route selection and billing. Electronic switching wasn't perfected until the late 1960s and didn't become widespread until the 1980s. Until then the bulk of the phone system was all relay. Railroad switching also reached a high degree of sophistication, and remained all relay until very recent years. (Most installations are still relay--relays are favored due to ruggedness and safety reliability.) A railway junction is "interlocked" to prevent the set up of signals or switches that would be dangerous. Relay logic ensures no trains are present or the signal/switch settings would be illogical. If a any component in the systemm fails, it is fail safe and reverts to the most restrictive indication. (A broken signal relay causes the signal to go red.) After the war, automatic switching systems came out where a towerman would simply press buttons for the desired the route, and the system would set switches and signals automatically to route the train through the junction (known as "NX") interlocking. "Centralized Traffic Control" used relays to dispatch long stretches of railroad, the system used coded impluses to set distant signals and switches. > Personally, I wonder if we would have been farther ahead without ENIAC. It seems to me that ENIAC, other than being all electronic, wasn't that advanced compared to the IBM relay machines since it wasn't programmable (I think later they modified it to have internal program capability, and ENAIC did remain in service for a number of years.) But apparently relays are so slow compared to even crude electronics that electronics won out as soon as they were perfected. I don't know how the cost compared--a relay circuit vs. a tube circuit. ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:57:13 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 35 Message-ID: <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0376.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!194.125.2.233!iol!not-for-mail Max F Lang wrote: > Your very nice description got me to thinking: how much the hell cable is > -still- sitting there on the ocean floor?! Has it been pulled up and recycled, > or when such cable systems were abandoned were the cables just cut and left at > the bottom of the drink? That sure does seem to be a lot of cable to make and > then just forget about... My guess is that the deep sea stuff is still lying there. Even in my day it cost about 500 pounds a day to keep a cable ship at sea, it would cost a hell of a lot more than that now and it wouldn't just be a little repair ship with a capacity of a couple of hundred miles of cable in its tanks but a much larger laying type of ship. > And what were the specs on such a cable: big stuff? - little stuff? - type of > insulation? Deep sea cable had a copper core of about 1/8 inch diameter in the older cables (such as a lot of the Far Eastern cables laid by the Great Eastern in the 1870s - most of them still in service to the end of the cable era), a bit bigger in more recent ones, surrounded by gutta-percha insulation to a diameter of about 1/2 inch covered by jute packing with a final layer of steel sheathing wires about 1/8 inch diameter each. Overall diameter about an inch to an inch and a quarter. Shore ends often had up to 3 cores, the transmitting earth being bonded to the sheathing a couple of miles out with the receiving one going as many as 20 miles in some cases where there was a long shallow stretch subject to electrical storms - Colombo was such a place. Its sheathing was much heavier gauge and on rocky shores or ones with strong tidal streams might have several layers up to an overall diameter not far off 3 inches. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 14 Feb 1999 20:31:00 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7a7bq4$qc4$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com> <36C65F91.684C@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul4.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 919024260 27012 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <36C65F91.684C@alltel.net>, Micheal H. McCabe wrote: >The IBM accounting machines and the 600 series of multipliers were >certainly an advancement to the state of the art, but when compared to >the versitility of later Bell/Stibitz machines it's like a hardware RPG >versus FORTRAN. I would take out the word "like". The accounting machines ARE (were?) a hardware RPG in a sense, since RPG was created as a software simulator for accounting machines. Of course the Bell and Sibitz machines were NOT a hardware FORTRAN... that would be scary. :) Yes, I just twisted your sentence out of context, but only to make my point about RPG. >The use of special "Hunter Circuits" to implement paper-tape function >tables; hardware interpolation of trancendental functions; primitive >looping controls and subroutines; microcode; multiple terminals; >teleprocessing; all these 'modern' concepts made it into some very >_basic_ electromechanical computers. Are you talking about the Bell and Stibitz machines again? I don't know if I would call them basic. At the time they were considered state of the art and were rather complicated (compared to others you mentioned, like the IBM machines). -- Derek ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:05:50 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: <36C780FD.23A9@alltel.net> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp53.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919044331 10413 166.102.185.54 (15 Feb 1999 02:05:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 02:05:31 GMT To: richmond@plano.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Charles Richmond wrote: > How about the ABC (Atanasoff-Berry Computer) from Iowa? I believe it was done > in the 1930's. The main memory was made of capacitors on a rotating drum. > This has been called the first Dynamic RAM. (No kidding!!!) It also used > binary arithmetic. This was the computer and inventor used to invalidate > the Echert-Mauchly computer patents. I've read some articles about the ABC but it was never clear to me if it was ever completed or any application was ever in "production" status. I do seem to recall that Mr. Atanasoff started his project by attempting to modify an IBM accounting machine. Eventually he got his hands slapped by IBM (the machine was leased) and he had to begin his own machine. p98mccabe@alltel.net Micheal H. McCabe ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:12:28 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: <36C7828C.231@alltel.net> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp53.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919044729 10413 166.102.185.54 (15 Feb 1999 02:12:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 02:12:09 GMT To: spalding@iol.ie X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Nick Spalding wrote: > I have seen such a memory system myself. My first job, from 1950 to > 1954 was with Cable & Wireless working on the cable side. It wasn't > until 1955 that I laid hands on a computer. > was done by having a pair of large commutators consisting of ebonite > disks about 18 inches in diameter with many brass studs on them. The > corresponding studs on each were connected together to capacitors > (actually we called them condensers in those days!). The studs were > in pairs, one for dots the other for dashes. The brushes feeding > charge into the capacitors were controlled by the synchroniser... Excellent! This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:22:54 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: <36C784FE.56C5@alltel.net> References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp53.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919045354 10413 166.102.185.54 (15 Feb 1999 02:22:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 02:22:34 GMT To: Lisa or Jeff X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Lisa or Jeff wrote: > Telephone switching remained all relay for years and reached a very > high degree of sophistication. > Railroad switching also reached a high degree of sophistication, > and remained all relay until very recent years. (Most installations > are still relay--relays are favored due to ruggedness and safety > reliability.) > But apparently relays are so slow compared to even crude electronics > that electronics won out as soon as they were perfected. I don't know > how the cost compared--a relay circuit vs. a tube circuit. Thanks for the informative reply. One reference gives a materials cost of $500,000 for the Model V relay calculator. Development costs were not released. Considering the reliability of the later Bell machines (one figure given was 167 "uptime" hours out of 168 possible) it seems a bargain. The Model I 'Complex Number Calculator' is listed as having cost about $20,000 in materials. Still a bargain considering its 9 year life-span and the rental cost of IBM accounting machines. Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:30:47 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 41 Message-ID: <36C786D7.BFA@alltel.net> References: <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com> <36C65F91.684C@alltel.net> <7a7bq4$qc4$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp53.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919045829 10413 166.102.185.54 (15 Feb 1999 02:30:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 02:30:29 GMT To: Derek Peschel X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.208.190.2!news.globix.net!nntp2.cerf.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Derek Peschel wrote: > I would take out the word "like". The accounting machines ARE (were?) a > hardware RPG in a sense, since RPG was created as a software simulator for > accounting machines. Point taken. > Of course the Bell and Sibitz machines were NOT a hardware FORTRAN... that > would be scary. :) I picked FORTRAN for my comparison strictly based on the application: number crunching for scientific and engineering problems. Besides, I still have a soft spot for FORTRAN. > Yes, I just twisted your sentence out of context, but only to make my point > about RPG. No offense taken. > >The use of special "Hunter Circuits" to implement paper-tape function > >tables; hardware interpolation of trancendental functions; primitive > >looping controls and subroutines; microcode; multiple terminals; > >teleprocessing; all these 'modern' concepts made it into some very > >_basic_ electromechanical computers. > > Are you talking about the Bell and Stibitz machines again? I don't know if > I would call them basic. At the time they were considered state of the art > and were rather complicated (compared to others you mentioned, like the IBM > machines). I meant basic technology - electromechanical relays, off-the-shelf I/O hardware, tried-and-true design principles (adapted from telephone switching circuits, etc. The complexity of the finished work belies the simple elegance of the design. Thanks for the reply. Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:34:26 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 16 Message-ID: <36C787B2.2CAF@alltel.net> References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> <7a7ts6$8qq@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp53.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919046046 10413 166.102.185.54 (15 Feb 1999 02:34:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 02:34:06 GMT To: Joe Morris X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Joe Morris wrote: > The Tech Model Railway Club ("TMRC") at MIT (proud owner and operator > of the Tech Nickel Plate Railroad) had a massive (and rather realistic) > relay-control design for its control system. One of the entries in > the TMRC Dictionary (ca. 1962) was: > > Operating Session: 12 members versus 1200 relays Ahah! The MIT Pioneers then DID have an appreciation of Relay Logic! How come they forget to write it up? Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 15 Feb 1999 01:39:18 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 17 Message-ID: <7a7ts6$8qq@top.mitre.org> References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!world!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) writes: >After the war, automatic switching systems came out where a towerman >would simply press buttons for the desired the route, and the system would >set switches and signals automatically to route the train through the >junction (known as "NX") interlocking. "Centralized Traffic Control" >used relays to dispatch long stretches of railroad, the system used >coded impluses to set distant signals and switches. The Tech Model Railway Club ("TMRC") at MIT (proud owner and operator of the Tech Nickel Plate Railroad) had a massive (and rather realistic) relay-control design for its control system. One of the entries in the TMRC Dictionary (ca. 1962) was: Operating Session: 12 members versus 1200 relays Joe Morris (who never *did* see TMRC's NX board working as it should) ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 15 Feb 1999 04:47:47 GMT Organization: Net Access BBS Lines: 33 Message-ID: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news-toy.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root > > how the cost compared--a relay circuit vs. a tube circuit. > > Thanks for the informative reply. One reference gives a materials cost > of $500,000 for the Model V relay calculator. Material cost analysis of early machines is very tricky since the prototype machines often used special order parts and not mass produced which would've been much cheaper. Also is the cost of support cicuitry of resistors, wiring, and assembling the package. IBM developed ways to better package its electronis, indeed, "packaging" was a critical aspect of computer design. IBM had a big problem with vaccum tubes in the early days since what would work in radios (the normal application) wouldn't do for high speed digital counting. IBM was tempted to build its own tubes, but finally got the tube mfrs to meet their specifications. I don't know if IBM made its own relays or purchased them (I suspect they built their own since they used so many in their machines.) The Bell System obviously built their own relays through Western Electric as even a single central office used thousands of them. > Still a bargain considering its 9 year > life-span and the rental cost of IBM accounting machines. IBM's rental costs were high, but they included all maintenance and customer support (ie free "software" and customer training and support). ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:45:14 GMT Lines: 41 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.magicnet.net!bill In article <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com>, Lisa or Jeff wrote: >> > how the cost compared--a relay circuit vs. a tube circuit. >> Thanks for the informative reply. One reference gives a materials >> cost of $500,000 for the Model V relay calculator. >Material cost analysis of early machines is very tricky ... >I don't know if IBM made its own relays or purchased them (I >suspect they built their own since they used so many in their >machines.) IBM's largest installed base was a GE. Some at GE wanted to build computers - and they did - however not really appreciated by the old-line management. One time Thomas J Watson of IBM called the CEO of GE and told him in no uncertain terms to stop going after YYYYY (That was a customer or an idea - I need to go back and check). GE was quite happy to being a supplier for IBM than a competitor of IBM. But what they did in their 14 years in business still lives with us today. MICR encoding - the numbers on the bottoms of checks. First working packet switching - to replace people on roller skates carrying punched tapes from incoming punch devices to outgoing transmitters at Western Union centers. First computer to computer commmunication via modem. First satellite linkage of computers. All the time the management was saying "why would one computer want to talk to another". It's a great story. Check out "The King of The Seven Dwarfs" - it's an IEEE press publication of about 2 or 3 years ago. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 15 Feb 1999 16:49:11 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 14 Message-ID: <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!dscheidt Nick Spalding wrote: There is a unit of measure called a cable mile. It is about three meters longer than a standard nautical mile. What's up with that? David -- David Scheidt The presumption of the flamers is, I assume, that folks barging in to AFU with tired old stories and off-topic drivel have already ignored the polite and subtle clues, and require a thwack with the clue-by-four. -- Andrew Reid ###### From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:49:38 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <919100978.25.0.nnrp-12.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919100978 nnrp-12:25 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg In article <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net>, Max F Lang wrote: [...] >Your very nice description got me to thinking: how much the hell cable is >-still- sitting there on the ocean floor?! Has it been pulled up and recycled, >or when such cable systems were abandoned were the cables just cut and left at >the bottom of the drink? That sure does seem to be a lot of cable to make and >then just forget about... >And what were the specs on such a cable: big stuff? - little stuff? - type of >insulation? This is a must read for anybody who's interesting in telecommunications: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass_pr.html This is a (quite long) essay on the subject by Neal Stephenson (of _Snow Crash_ fame). You wouldn't have thought that you could make undersea cables a riveting read, but it is. It's basically a description of his journey from one end of the FLAG cable to the other. When it was laid, it was the biggest structure on the planet, being 28000km long. Along the way he visits interesting places and interesting episodes of cable-laying history. It's quite enthralling. Be warned: it's 260kB of plain text. You may want to download it for off-line viewing. I discovered, after reading this, that my father actually has a piece of the FLAG cable. It's a sample segment about thirty centimetres long, with each layer carefully peeled back so you can see the structure. It's suprisingly thin, only about 5cm. And inside the multiple layers of armor, rubber, insulation and power cores, there are three pieces of hair-like optical fibre sprouting out the middle. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | I think, therefore you are. | Play: dgiven@iname.com | +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 15 Feb 1999 17:58:36 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> Reply-To: jvarela@mind.spring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.26.b9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:45:14, bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion) wrote: > transmitters at Western Union centers. First computer to computer > commmunication via modem. Perhaps you mean through the public switched network? SAGE was doing computer-to-computer comm in the late fifties over dedicated phone lines in an operational real-time environment. I don't recall the speed; I think it was something like 1300 bits/sec synchronous. -- John Varela (delete . between mind and spring to e-mail me) ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:22:02 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 19 Message-ID: <36d1736d.80854521@news.newsguy.com> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0027.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.ecrc.net!iol!not-for-mail David Scheidt wrote: > There is a unit of measure called a cable mile. It is about three meters > longer than a standard nautical mile. What's up with that? Never heard of that. The splice lists for cables were all in plain nautical miles. These were originally produced at the time the cable was laid and tabulated the resistance to each factory splice against the distance from the beginning. Whenever a repair was made the repair ship sent copies of amended pages to the stations at either end since the amount of repair cable laid in was never the same as what was cut out, it was invariably longer since the new bit was laid in an arc some distance away from the faulty bit. The cable thus got longer and with higher resistance and capacitance as the years went by. It was necessary to patch the artificial line used to balance the cable for duplex working to match, with some precision if the fault was near the head of the line. -- Nick Spalding ###### Message-ID: <36C88112.5C88E854@karlsson.pp.se> From: Anders Karlsson Reply-To: anders.karlsson@karlsson.pp.se X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.228.223 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 919110964 130.244.228.223 (Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:36:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:36:04 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: unknown@dialup228-4-31.swipnet.se Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:18:26 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Lisa or Jeff wrote: > > I've seen the remains of some very complex relay logic (mostly pre-ESS > > telephone switches and elevator controls), I'm wondering just how far > > the state of the art went. > > Telephone switching remained all relay for years and reached a very > high degree of sophistication. Initially, dial telephone switches > were direct control--each dial pull caused selectors to directly > (the "step by step" system, and some units remain in use today.) > But in cities, the Bell System realized this wasn't adequate and > developed common control systems, such as "panel" and later "crossbar". > The dialed number was stored in registers, and a control unit directed > other switchgear. After WW II they established direct dialing for > long distance calls nationwide. The relay equipment handled route > selection and billing. Electronic switching wasn't perfected until > the late 1960s and didn't become widespread until the 1980s. Until then > the bulk of the phone system was all relay. > I used to work for the swedish PTT in the early 1980's. In those days there was still alot of relay based systems out there. One of the main reasons is the Sweden demography. Sweden is a rather big country, but only 8million people live there. Also, 80% of the population live on 20% of the area. The net effect is that you have to have a lot of telephone exchanges to route the traffic, otherwise the subscriber lines would be too long. In those days, it was sometimes stated that Sweden had more telephone exchanges per capita than any other country in the world. A lot of those exchange were real small, the smallest one I worked with had 11 subscribers (yes eleven!). Sweden had som 6000 telephone stations in those days. These small exchange had a very limited amount of "computational" power, if any. They relied on the next exchange in the hierchcy to handle things for it. One exchange I worked with was (hmmm. I don't know the term for this. "Relay exchange"??) one that had no actual subscribers. Instead, it was used to route traffic between other exchanges. Most of these very important exchanges had been changed to electonics by then, but this was one of the remaining electromechanical ones. And it was REALLY something. When it was designed, in the late 1950's, it was the fastest telephone station in the world (or so they claimed). Most telephone stations in those days worked "one step at the time", i.e. the "computer" did not calculate the full path of a call through a station. Instead, it took one step, found a path in the direction of the destination, took that and so on until the destination was reached. This mechanical wonder was different though. It compted the full path through the station in one go, and hooked up all the relays from start to finish in one step. This meant that the average connection time through the exchange was less that 100ms, which was real fast back then! Maybe not the connection time as such, but this was an average on a loaded system, with only one "computer". This was one hell of a machine! I'll never forget the sound this thing made. All those relays connecting at once like m-a-d! The manager at this station was death on one ear after having worked there since the monster was built in 1959 or so! Karlsson > > [snip] > -- ==================================================================== Anders Hackin' Karlsson Licensed Database Dude - Ainigma Solutions AB Email: andersk@ainigma.com or andersk.karlsson@karlsson.pp.se "Every time I've built character, I've regretted it" Calvin ==================================================================== ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 05:06:41 GMT Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.magicnet.net!bilver.magicnet.net!bill In article , John Varela wrote: >On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:45:14, bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill >Vermillion) wrote: > > > >> transmitters at Western Union centers. First computer to computer >> commmunication via modem. >Perhaps you mean through the public switched network? SAGE was >doing computer-to-computer comm in the late fifties over dedicated >phone lines in an operational real-time environment. I don't recall >the speed; I think it was something like 1300 bits/sec synchronous. Correct. That was indeed what I meant. Was SAGE using modems or direct connections? Or were they just using the lines for transport. -- Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:03:10 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 53 Message-ID: <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp25.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919180968 8097 166.102.185.26 (16 Feb 1999 16:02:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 16:02:48 GMT To: Lisa or Jeff X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Lisa or Jeff wrote: > Material cost analysis of early machines is very tricky since the > prototype machines often used special order parts and not mass > produced which would've been much cheaper. > > Also is the cost of support cicuitry of resistors, wiring, and > assembling the package. IBM developed ways to better package > its electronis, indeed, "packaging" was a critical aspect of > computer design. Bravo! I'm happy to hear the reference to "packaging." The "packaging" is what really stinks with newer machines: no documentation (hardware, software, or internals), no development support for in-house applications. No nothing. Just a little beige box that runs x (doom, worperfect, whatever.) In the case of the Model I (Complex Number Calculator), my understanding is that all the parts were 'stock' telephone switching gear, as were the racks, interconnect gear, and I/O systems. I'm sure the later models had a higher percentage of 'custom' parts like the "hunter" circuits and bi-directional tape readers. > IBM had a big problem with vaccum tubes in the early days since what > would work in radios (the normal application) wouldn't do for high > speed digital counting. IBM was tempted to build its own tubes, > but finally got the tube mfrs to meet their specifications. > I don't know if IBM made its own relays or purchased them (I suspect > they built their own since they used so many in their machines.) Looking at the guts of my 024 keypunch, the tubes are all labeled IBM but they are interchangeable with certain RCA tubes (I can't find the cross reference right now.) The relays look like stock 'C' and 'U' type telephone relays. One is labeled "Stackpole." (I didn't know they made low-current stuff like this!) > The Bell System obviously built their own relays through Western Electric > as even a single central office used thousands of them. Agreed. > IBM's rental costs were high, but they included all maintenance and > customer support (ie free "software" and customer training and support). I always liked the heavy stuff from IBM so don't get me wrong: the software and support are excellent. Just don't ask IBM for a custom application without lots of money and lead time. Thanks again. Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 16 Feb 1999 11:16:05 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 38 Message-ID: <7ac94l$84m$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eyry.econ.iastate.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail In article <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >> Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other >> relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any >> survive? >How about the ABC (Atanasoff-Berry Computer) from Iowa? I believe it was done >in the 1930's. The main memory was made of capacitors on a rotating drum. >This has been called the first Dynamic RAM. (No kidding!!!) It also used >binary arithmetic. This was the computer and inventor used to invalidate >the Echert-Mauchly computer patents. Not Iowa, Iowa State :) I was kind of surprised to get here and find the AAA book list it as the home off the frist electronic digital computer. They're working on 2 replicas right now, one of which will actually run before being shipped to the Smithsonian. The other will tour the world or some such. One of hte difficulties is that the original was cannibalized for parts decades ago, and there were no schematics. Much of the work is done by second-guessing photographs. Some of the purchasing records survive, though. It used a funny paper (electrostatic?) for output, and they found some still around at the old supplier's warehouse . . . There's a logic module on dispaly here (four (six?)) tubes on a small chassis, and a replica of one of the memory drums next to it. And there's probably lots of stuff you can find by seaching the iastate.edu domain; it pops up in the school paper every couple of months. -- These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer. ###### From: hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 16 Feb 1999 11:20:47 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7ac9df$863$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36C780FD.23A9@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eyry.econ.iastate.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news.idt.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail In article <36C780FD.23A9@alltel.net>, Micheal H. McCabe wrote: >I've read some articles about the ABC but it was never clear to me if it >was ever completed or any application was ever in "production" status. yes, it was completed, though only one was made. It wasn't so much an exercise in computing, as he wanted it to solve multivariate equations. I don't no how long it was used this way. Atanasoff left for the Manhattan project, and never returned to the University (though I believe he retired here, and his widow is still around). >I do seem to recall that Mr. Atanasoff started his project by attempting >to modify an IBM accounting machine. Eventually he got his hands >slapped by IBM (the machine was leased) and he had to begin his own >machine. I've never heard this before, but I don't see how one of those would have been useful for his purposes. THe ABC was desinged to solve systems of 17(?) equations. rick -- These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer. ###### From: "Micheal H. McCabe" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:45:35 -0500 Organization: Micheal McCabe Data Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: <36C9CADF.3D6@alltel.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: mepa3pp37.alltel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 919194308 14526 166.102.185.38 (16 Feb 1999 19:45:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 19:45:08 GMT To: Samael X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Samael wrote: > I put my machine together myself and have manuals for every piece of > hardware in it. > > I also have manuals for the software, but that's mostly online. I could > print it if I wanted to, but most of the time I don't want to, as I tend to > use it when I'm using my machine. Cool. Glad you could actually get documentation for the parts. Trouble is, usually somebody else built the darn thing and the on-line manuals are inaccessible since the machine is dead. Give me a wall of 3-ring binders anyday! Micheal H. McCabe p98mccabe@alltel.net ###### From: jvarela@mind.spring.com (John Varela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 16 Feb 1999 16:22:02 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> Reply-To: jvarela@mind.spring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.21.da Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.00 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 05:06:41, bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion) wrote: > Correct. That was indeed what I meant. Was SAGE using modems or > direct connections? Or were they just using the lines for > transport. I don't really know. I am not a comm person. They used leased phone lines to connect the radar digitizers at the radar sites to the Direction Centers, and also to interconnect Direction Centers to one another and to the Combat Centers. I remember hearing stories about the problems they had dealing with all the small local phone companies through whose territory they passed. I never actually worked on SAGE, just used the SAGE Evaluation Sector at Lincoln Lab for air traffic control system experiments in the early 60s. If you really want details, I might be able to get in touch with one of the old-timers who knows the answers. -- John Varela (delete . between mind and spring to e-mail me) ###### From: "Samael" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:00:31 -0000 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.147.134.190 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.itg.net.uk!192.168.0.20!192.168.0.1 Micheal H. McCabe wrote in message <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net>... >Bravo! I'm happy to hear the reference to "packaging." The "packaging" >is what really stinks with newer machines: no documentation (hardware, >software, or internals), no development support for in-house >applications. No nothing. Just a little beige box that runs x (doom, >worperfect, whatever.) I put my machine together myself and have manuals for every piece of hardware in it. I also have manuals for the software, but that's mostly online. I could print it if I wanted to, but most of the time I don't want to, as I tend to use it when I'm using my machine. Samael ###### From: cjt&trefoil Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:02:00 -0600 Organization: Prodigy Services Corp Lines: 9 Message-ID: <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: cheljuba@prodigy.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dllsb206-19.splitrock.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Post-Time: 16 Feb 1999 23:02:24 GMT X-Auth-User: 002709921/f93062f0090d38c9 X-Problems-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newscon02!prodigy.com!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > That's how it > works at a gate level - what every signal is for, what every gate and > flip-flop does. > With tens of millions of gates in an Intel CPU, that would get a bit difficult to use, anyway. ###### From: Derrik Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:17:30 -0500 Organization: APK Net Lines: 21 Message-ID: <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: as5-34.apk.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: plonk.apk.net 919214403 5087 207.54.160.232 (17 Feb 1999 01:20:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@apk.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 1999 01:20:03 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in4.uu.net!plonk.apk.net!news.apk.net!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > That's _real_ documentation. > > I remember when a microcomputer manual would always include a schematic, > and probably some kind of explanation as well. I was so used to getting > tech manuals with everything that I simply couldn't believe it when > Compaq (I think) told me they weren't available. > I had this one book for my Commodore 64 that cost $24.95 and had every little detail about the machine and included a schematic. I think about all the Mac Documentation or Windoze documentation, and they don't tell you a damn thing exept kinda explain the API's. I do miss the good old days :) > -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:20:54 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919199971 nnrp-10:27265 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Samael (Samael@dial.pipex.com) wrote: : Micheal H. McCabe wrote in message <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net>... : >Bravo! I'm happy to hear the reference to "packaging." The "packaging" : >is what really stinks with newer machines: no documentation (hardware, : >software, or internals), no development support for in-house : >applications. No nothing. Just a little beige box that runs x (doom, : >worperfect, whatever.) : I put my machine together myself and have manuals for every piece of : hardware in it. Yes, but presumably they're the trivial little sheets of paper you get with most PC motherboards etc that tell you the link settings and nothing more. I've just been looking up something in the PDP8/e manuals (a 12 bit DEC minicomputer from the early 1970s). I have in front of me a complete schematic for the CPU (almost to gate level). I have a separate set of 3 books that explain how the machine works (volume 1 : CPU, volume 2 : internal options, volume 3 : peripherals/external options). That's how it works at a gate level - what every signal is for, what every gate and flip-flop does. That sort of documentation is not rare for older minicomputers. I have similar manuals for some models of PDP11 (like the 11/45). And for other manufacturer's machines. That's _real_ documentation. I remember when a microcomputer manual would always include a schematic, and probably some kind of explanation as well. I was so used to getting tech manuals with everything that I simply couldn't believe it when Compaq (I think) told me they weren't available. -tony ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:33:42 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 42 Message-ID: <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 17 Feb 1999 01:33:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail cjt&trefoil wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's how it > > works at a gate level - what every signal is for, what every gate > >and flip-flop does. > > > > With tens of millions of gates in an Intel CPU, that would get a bit > difficult to use, anyway. That, of course, is one of the reasons that modern PeeCees are completely useless for teaching anybody _why_ a computer works. I doubt if there's a single human alive who can tell you just what a particular gate in a P-II does. One of the reasons to keep the older iron around, _and_running_, is to show the newer generations (who have seen nothing but windoze) that computing _is_ understandable to a component level (one can replace a single transistor in a LINC-8 and make a _big_ difference in how it runs - try that with a "computer-on-a-chip"). In understanding _why_ a machine works, they're challenged to learn, and understand, more. Machines now tend to be designed, primarily, by their immediate predecessor machines with human guidance. In most probability, the humans can no longer comprehend the subtleties of what's actually going on at the die level. Is this _bad_? Probably not; we get faster and faster machines out of it. But at what price? .MODE=movie And they say it got smart. It decided our fate in a microsecond. .MODE=standard -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 17 Feb 1999 01:43:36 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7ad6s8$88f$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela In article <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com>, David Scheidt wrote: >Nick Spalding wrote: > > > >There is a unit of measure called a cable mile. It is about three meters >longer than a standard nautical mile. What's up with that? Knowing absolutely nothing about such matters, it seems logical that the topography of the ocean floor is such that more than one nautical mile of cable is required to cover one nautical mile of surface distance. It could well be that for typical cable runs, (or it could well be an estimate), an extra three meters per nautical mile of cable was required. That way, for a 1000 nmi cable run you lay 1000 cable miles of cable. Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 12:14:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7aedqa$vjs$3@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d15.dial-17.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 17 Feb 1999 12:48:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!d15 In article <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net>, "Micheal H. McCabe" wrote: >Lisa or Jeff wrote: >> IBM's rental costs were high, but they included all maintenance and >> customer support (ie free "software" and customer training and support). > >I always liked the heavy stuff from IBM so don't get me wrong: the >software and support are excellent. Just don't ask IBM for a custom >application without lots of money and lead time. And don't try to do your own. One of the reasons that DEC sold at entrenched IBM sites, is the allure of "owning" ones own hardware and software and being able to tell the manufacturerer what was required; not the manufacturer telling the customer what he had to run. Hmmm....[emoticon looking at PC it is using...history repeating itself?] /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:42:48 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 43 Message-ID: <36d2b807.229508668@news.iol.ie> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> <7ad6s8$88f$1@agate.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0447.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!iol!not-for-mail Eric J. Korpela wrote: > Knowing absolutely nothing about such matters, it seems logical that the > topography of the ocean floor is such that more than one nautical mile of > cable is required to cover one nautical mile of surface distance. It could > well be that for typical cable runs, (or it could well be an estimate), an > extra three meters per nautical mile of cable was required. That way, for > a 1000 nmi cable run you lay 1000 cable miles of cable. Far more than 3 meters. My recollection is that around 5% of slack was laid in in deep water. It is not just the topography, there has to be enough slack to lift the cable for repairs. My reference work, Telegraph Cable Engineering, Vol II, published by the Eastern Associated Telegraph Company (predecessor of C & W) in 1927 has a description of how the slack was measured and controlled but is silent on the actual figures. A length of piano wire was laid alongside the cable and kept taught and the difference in length of wire and cable paid out was measured thus (redundant commas and all). Anything in []s is mine. 'Light spindles are fixed to the cable and wire-drum axles [on each of which are wheels turned by the cable/wire passing over], and revolve with them. On one of these is mounted a long wooden cone truly revolving with the spindle in bearings, and on the other spindle is a long screw placed parallel to the edge of the cone. On the screw is a threaded circular disk, the edge of which bears lightly on the surface of the cone. If, say, the cone is stationary and the screw revolves the disk will travel up the screw, as it is prevented from turning by touching the cone; and if the screw is stationery and the cone revolves, the disk will travel down the screw, as the friction of the cone causes the disk to turn with it. If the cone and screw both revolve the disk will travel up or down the screw in accordance with the relative speeds of the two spindles. When both cone and screw are in motion, therefore, the disc soon finds for itself a position of rest on the screw, such that the cone at this point tends to work it down at the same rate as the screw tends to work it up. A scale is placed behind the disk calibrated in percentage of slack. The brakes can be adjusted for the required percentage of slack, which can be kept constant and waste of cable avoided. The economy effected in cable paid out amply covers the cost of the steel wire.' -- Nick Spalding ###### From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:54:16 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919256056 nnrp-04:29554 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg In article <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net>, Derrik wrote: [...] >I had this one book for my Commodore 64 that cost $24.95 and had every little >detail about the machine and included a schematic. I think about all the Mac >Documentation or Windoze documentation, and they don't tell you a damn thing >exept kinda explain the API's. > >I do miss the good old days :) Ha. The BBC User's Guide, the last of the great manuals, started with a programming tutorial and ended with a complete reference of BBC Basic, the legal operating system entry points, how to work the built-in assembler, and a circuit diagram. All in one well-written and thoroughly readable volume. Now, *that* was documentation. -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | FNORD | Play: dgiven@iname.com | +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:00:50 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 25 Message-ID: <36d30389.248841316@news.iol.ie> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> <7ad6s8$88f$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <36d2b807.229508668@news.iol.ie> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0020.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!iol!not-for-mail I wrote: > Far more than 3 meters. My recollection is that around 5% of slack > was laid in in deep water. It is not just the topography, there has > to be enough slack to lift the cable for repairs. I have just found a passage in TCE II on this subject, I thought it had to be there somewhere. The average figure was what I was remembering. I quote: 'The amount of slack allowed for in laying a new cable is now, on an average, about 5 per cent. This is considered sufficient to allow the cable to lie on the normal sea bottom, and to give sufficient slack to allow of lifting in deep water when future repairs become necessary. The heavy types of cable in shallow water have practically no slack. Light intermediate types in shallow water have very little slack, and in normal depths have about 3 per cent. slack. For deep-sea cable in 1,000/5,000 fathoms [6,000/30,000 feet] the slack is generally about 6 per cent. but where there is a rapid variation of bottom as much as 15 to 20 per cent. of slack is paid out, so as to ensure the cable being on the bottom and to prevent suspension.' -- Nick Spalding ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 17 Feb 1999 19:30:26 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7af5ci$kb@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919286311 nnrp-10:4643 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Carl R. Friend (carl.friend@stoneweb.com) wrote: : cjt&trefoil wrote: : > : > Tony Duell wrote: : > > : > That's how it : > > works at a gate level - what every signal is for, what every gate : > >and flip-flop does. : > > : > : > With tens of millions of gates in an Intel CPU, that would get a bit : > difficult to use, anyway. I am not so sure... Think about a stuffed PDP11 system. Perhaps 10,000 chips with 10's of gates per chip. OK, a couple of orders of magnitude lower. But that machine is pretty easy to understand. Remember that you don't pick gates at random with no structure. There is a sizeable microcode store in there. At the gate level it's a mess of AND gates (the address decoder matrix) and Or gates (the outputs). But you understand that by realising it's a ROM and analysing the contents. Ditto for things like cache memory. : That, of course, is one of the reasons that modern PeeCees are : completely useless for teaching anybody _why_ a computer works. I : doubt if there's a single human alive who can tell you just what a : particular gate in a P-II does. I personally think the lack of documentation is more serious than the complexity. Suppose you could chose between a no-name XT clone (assume schematics and BIOS source don't exist) and a PDP11/45 (you can have the printset and the CPU tech manual). The latter almost certainly contains more gates. It's also a lot easier to understand and a lot easier to teach. : One of the reasons to keep the older iron around, _and_running_, is : to show the newer generations (who have seen nothing but windoze) that : computing _is_ understandable to a component level (one can replace a Some of my friends are quite suprised when I show them how I fix the 11/45 'OK, so that AND instruction failed. Let's stick the data path board on an extender, single step the CPU microcode and see what is going on on the ALU and multiplexer control lines'. : single transistor in a LINC-8 and make a _big_ difference in how it : runs - try that with a "computer-on-a-chip"). In understanding _why_ : a machine works, they're challenged to learn, and understand, more. There are a whole lot of myths that I like to collapse. One is that no person can understand how a CPU works. Another is that a computer is more than a collection of gates and flip-flops (well, it is, but not much more - the point is there is nothing 'magic' in a CPU). And the last is that for some reason you can't use a soldering iron on computer parts (especially PC parts) Needless to say I don't believe any of them.... -tony ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 17 Feb 1999 23:51:07 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 17 Feb 1999 23:57:35 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Derrik writes: > I had this one book for my Commodore 64 that cost $24.95 and had every little > detail about the machine and included a schematic. I think about all the Mac The 64 Programmer's Reference or whatever it was called was a pretty good book, but still not up to the quality of the DEC manuals Tony is talking about. If you discover that a part in your PDP-8 is broken, and you can no longer get an exact replacement, the PDP-8 maintenance manuals and prints are sufficiently detailed that you can figure out how to build a replacement. What are you going to do when the VIC-II or SID chip in your Commodore 64 breaks? Of course, this is a problem with ASICs in general. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> <7af5ci$kb@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 17 Feb 1999 23:53:19 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 17 Feb 1999 23:59:48 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > There are a whole lot of myths that I like to collapse. [...] > Another is that a computer is more than a collection of gates and > flip-flops (well, it is, but not much more - the point is there is > nothing 'magic' in a CPU). Except the smoke! I think they have special CPU smoke inside them, rather than (for instance) EPROM smoke or DMA controller smoke. Although they all seem to look and smell the same. ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 18 Feb 1999 16:33:13 +0200 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 919348532 2994 194.90.227.153 (18 Feb 1999 14:35:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 1999 14:35:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news-penn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail dg@ (David Given) writes: > In article <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net>, Derrik wrote: > [...] > >I had this one book for my Commodore 64 that cost $24.95 and had every little > >detail about the machine and included a schematic. I think about all the Mac > >Documentation or Windoze documentation, and they don't tell you a damn thing > >exept kinda explain the API's. > > > >I do miss the good old days :) > > Ha. The BBC User's Guide, the last of the great manuals, started with a > programming tutorial and ended with a complete reference of BBC Basic, the > legal operating system entry points, how to work the built-in assembler, > and a circuit diagram. All in one well-written and thoroughly > readable volume. Now, *that* was documentation. And you still needed to pay extra for the Advanced User Guide, if you really wanted to know what the entry points did. -- Ariel Scolnicov |"GCAAGAATTGAACTGTAG" |ariels@compugen.co.il Compugen Ltd. |Tel: +972-2-6795059 (Jerusalem) \ THIS SPACE TO LET 72 Pinhas Rosen St. |Tel: +972-3-7658520 (Main office)`-------------------- Tel-Aviv 69512, ISRAEL |Fax: +972-3-7658555 http://www.compugen.co.il/~ariels ###### From: dg@ (David Given) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:17:21 GMT Organization: I'm organised? Wow! Message-ID: <919361841.19282.0.nnrp-02.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919361841 nnrp-02:19282 NO-IDENT taos.demon.co.uk:158.152.120.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!taos.demon.co.uk!!dg In article , Ariel Scolnicov wrote: [...] >And you still needed to pay extra for the Advanced User Guide, if you >really wanted to know what the entry points did. The Standard guide contained basic information on most of them; it told you about the simple ones (OSWRCH, OSASCII, OSGETCH, etc) and it listed the complex ones (OSBYTE and OSWORD). There wasn't much information on the latter, but there was enough to get started on. And there was enough information from other (easily available) sources that you didn't have to get the Advanced guide unless you were really serious. ...and once you did have it, it gave you more information than you really knew what to do with. In depth descriptions of each and every one of the 6502 opcodes; each and every standard OSBYTE and OSWORD calls, and there were a *lot* of them; all the hairy details of the FRED, JIM and SHEILA memory areas... I *still* think the BBC operating system is one of the most elegant I've seen. (For other 8-bitters who don't know it, one of the prime directives of programming on the BBC was that you never, ever, touched hardware or OS internals unless you really had to. You always went via the OS entry points. This allowed lots of fun stuff, like redirecting the input and output streams invisibly, or allowing an application ROM to call an abstracted file system call --- and the operating system would determine which filing system it was, map the filing system's ROM into memory *on top of* the application ROM, perform the transaction, put the application ROM back again, and continue invisibly. And all of this on a 64kB machine with, usually, 32kB of RAM. The operating system was 12kB and you could have up to 16 16kB application ROM's.) -- +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ | Work: dg@tao.co.uk | All generalizations are incorrect, | Play: dgiven@iname.com | including this one. +- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 18 Feb 1999 20:40:05 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 27 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> <7af5ci$kb@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > I am not so sure... Think about a stuffed PDP11 system. Perhaps 10,000 > chips with 10's of gates per chip. OK, a couple of orders of magnitude > lower. But that machine is pretty easy to understand. A question on PDP-11 implementation technology: I know that the first PDP-8s were transistor moduless, 8/I bringing SSI TTL, 8/E bringing MSI, 8/A bringign LSI (according to http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/index.html). How was this on the '11? THe LSI-11 and Micro-PDP were definitively LSI. But what were the first ones? Transistor/SSI/MSI? The introduction time (1970, same as 8/E) would suggest MSI TTL. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Programming: when you stop hammering around on the computer as if it were a piece of dumb matter and instead tell it what to do for you ###### From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:53:36 GMT Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Dave Daniels NNTP-Posting-Host: userm401.uk.uudial.com X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 In article <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk>, dg@ (David Given) wrote: > Ha. The BBC User's Guide, the last of the great manuals, started with a > programming tutorial and ended with a complete reference of BBC Basic, the And there was also 'The Advanced User Guide for the BBC Micro', considered another classic by some. Dave -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:08:47 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 25 Message-ID: <36CCAB8F.4007636B@stoneweb.com> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <7ai7uq$19c@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: zephyr.ultranet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 19 Feb 1999 00:08:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > > Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote: > : How was this on the '11? THe LSI-11 and Micro-PDP were definitively > : LSI. > > : But what were the first ones? Transistor/SSI/MSI? > > I have never seen an 11/20 (or the prints for it), so I can't comment > on the implementation of that. But I have an 11/45 (1972) > with all the docs. The 11/20 is mainly SSI with a smattering of MSI (mainly the adder) thrown in for good measure. Unlike all the other -11s, the 11/20 is time-stated. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| ###### From: cpc@mediaone.net (Chris Cebelenski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:34:34 GMT Organization: Children's Hospital Lines: 23 Message-ID: <36cd6ae0.15942704@news.supernews.com> References: <7a5hts$o1v@netaxs.com> Reply-To: cpc@mediaone.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 919366235 5IFYD/RVC1F3586AE usenet43.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa or Jeff) wrote: >> Aside from Stibitz, Zuse, and the folks at Bletchly Park; what other >> relay computers/calculators/controllers were built? By Whom? Do any >> survive? > >IBM built the Harvard Mark I (ASCC) and its own SSEC which >were programmable machines. IBM's own version was quite powerful, >and included some high speed electronic internal logic. From what >I've read it was quite sophisticated, but apparently was nearly >obsolete as soon as it was built because it was mostly relay, not >electronic. It seems to me that since it was programmable one >could set up a complex program and let it run--it would still be >far faster than people banging away at calculating machines. > >[snip] The Harvard Mark I sits today on the main floor of the Science Center at Harvard. I belive it's only been there since 1997 or so... I go past it at least once a week and gape... (c.f. other post of mine related topic) Chris ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Philippe Nave Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36CC7A48.3C6D899E@lucent.com> Sender: news@drnews.dr.lucent.com (Netnews Administration Login) NNTP-Posting-Host: pnave Reply-To: pnave@lucent.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lucent Technologies References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:38:32 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-EMS-1.4 (WinNT; U) Lines: 56 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!den-news-01.qwest.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!bigtop!news Derrik wrote: > > I had this one book for my Commodore 64 that cost $24.95 and had every little > detail about the machine and included a schematic. I think about all the Mac > Documentation or Windoze documentation, and they don't tell you a damn thing > exept kinda explain the API's. > > I do miss the good old days :) Oh, man... memory lane, all right... Yea, many years ago, I spent a lot of time hand-assembling machine code routines on a Vic-20. Assemblers existed at the time (I think), but I was too cheap to buy one, and, besides, Real Men wrote machine code and did all the addressing arithmetic in their heads in hex anyway, so what was the point? Anyway, as you can imagine, my machine code often executed a OIW (OFF IN the WEEDS) instruction, causing the poor Vic to lock up tight. After getting tired of power-cycling the machine to get it back in a sane state, I whipped out the diagram and spent a total of 20 minutes wiring in a momentary-contact normally-open switch between the ground and the 6502 reset pin. When I got in trouble, I could reach around the side of the case and *WHAP* the reset button, causing the little tyke to restart itself without powering down. That was also the machine that got alarmingly hot during marathon coding sessions; I remember scavenging a 120VAC muffin fan from somewhere and setting it behind the cartridge port (nice big hole open to the inside, close to the big heat sink for the power supply curcuitry). When the machine got so hot that the display screen got wavy (honest to God, it developed a weird seasick motion!), I flipped the switch and engaged the fan. After ten minutes of cramming room air through the machine, the display settled back down nicely and I could turn off the fan (which, naturally, sounded like a 737 on takeoff roll). I couldn't even begin to count the number of times I did that. Wow... self-modifying code, BASIC programs that were nothing but READ / DATA statements and a FOR loop to cram the opcodes into memory... I remember writing a 511-byte machine code program that could do a quicksort on 1000 ZIP codes and record numbers in 7 seconds (although I had to plug in the 8K RAM cartridge to hold the data array in memory)... Ooof! Back to the present, here I sit on a desktop machine that's got 96MB RAM and a 100MHz Pentium (and it's the oldest, nastiest machine in our work group !?!) Philippe -- ======================================================================= Philippe D. Nave, Jr.| 'Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!' Denver, Colorado USA | How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL pnave@lucent.com | Reality 2.0: Score counter, extra men, and hints ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 18 Feb 1999 21:11:18 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7ahvlm$s0@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> <7af5ci$kb@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919381907 nnrp-02:2456 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) wrote: : ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: : > There are a whole lot of myths that I like to collapse. : [...] : > Another is that a computer is more than a collection of gates and : > flip-flops (well, it is, but not much more - the point is there is : > nothing 'magic' in a CPU). : Except the smoke! I think they have special CPU smoke inside them, rather : than (for instance) EPROM smoke or DMA controller smoke. Although they : all seem to look and smell the same. But there's smoke in gates and flip-flops as well - I've managed to let it out on many occasions. Unfortunately I've never managed to put the smoke back into anything, so I can't comment on what happens if you fill a CPU with EPROM smoke, or whatever.. As the smoke from CPUs and that from simple gates seems to have all the same properties, I am not convinced there's any difference. -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 18 Feb 1999 23:32:42 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7ai7uq$19c@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919381912 nnrp-02:2456 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) wrote: : How was this on the '11? THe LSI-11 and Micro-PDP were definitively : LSI. : But what were the first ones? Transistor/SSI/MSI? : The introduction time (1970, same as 8/E) would suggest MSI TTL. Basically, yes. I have never seen an 11/20 (or the prints for it), so I can't comment on the implementation of that. But I have an 11/45 (1972) with all the docs. It uses 74S TTL mostly. There are some MSI chips in the CPU - the 74S181 ALU, a 16*4 bit RAM (for the registers), and some 256*4 PROMs (control store, assorted decodes). But much of it is simple gates, flip-flops, and things like and-or-invert gates. Ditto for the floating point unit, the MMU and most of the peripheral cards. I must admit that I use a later console port (DL11) with an LSI UART chip on it, and not the original all-TTL KL11 (which I have packed away, and which is current-loop only). I also have an 11/44 with the docs. This is much later (late 70's). It's also mostly TTL, though, again with 74S181 ALUs. But now there are 82S100 PLAs everywhere. The floating point unit uses 2901 bit-slice ALUs (LSI), etc. Other machines that I have (11/10, 11/34) are similar in technology. AFAIK no PDP11 _CPU_ ever used 2901s for ALUs. They were used in peripherals, in floating point units, and in the VAX11/730, but never in an 11 CPU... -tony ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:19:00 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <36cd72ca.607857@news.newsguy.com> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> <7ad6s8$88f$1@agate.berkeley.edu> <36d2b807.229508668@news.iol.ie> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: p-301.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news3 I wrote: > Far more than 3 meters. My recollection is that around 5% of slack > was laid in in deep water. It is not just the topography, there has > to be enough slack to lift the cable for repairs. I have just found a passage in TCE II on this subject, I thought it had to be there somewhere. The average figure was what I was remembering. I quote: 'The amount of slack allowed for in laying a new cable is now, on an average, about 5 per cent. This is considered sufficient to allow the cable to lie on the normal sea bottom, and to give sufficient slack to allow of lifting in deep water when future repairs become necessary. The heavy types of cable in shallow water have practically no slack. Light intermediate types in shallow water have very little slack, and in normal depths have about 3 per cent. slack. For deep-sea cable in 1,000/5,000 fathoms [6,000/30,000 feet] the slack is generally about 6 per cent. but where there is a rapid variation of bottom as much as 15 to 20 per cent. of slack is paid out, so as to ensure the cable being on the bottom and to prevent suspension.' -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Ariel Scolnicov Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 19 Feb 1999 16:51:51 +0200 Organization: NetVision Israel Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> <7af5ci$kb@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7ahvlm$s0@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bioserv.compugen.co.il X-Trace: news.netvision.net.il 919436049 24857 194.90.227.153 (19 Feb 1999 14:54:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@netvision.net.il NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 1999 14:54:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-penn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-feed.netvision.net.il!194.90.1.15.MISMATCH!news!not-for-mail ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >[...] > As the smoke from CPUs and that from simple gates seems to have all the > same properties, I am not convinced there's any difference. Well, consider the different properties of CPUs and EPROMs. What _else_ could be responsible? The packaging??? -- Ariel "and they told me empiricists don't do hidden variables" Scolnicov ###### From: nailed_barnacle@junkfree.hotmail.com (barnacle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:21:39 GMT Organization: [posted via Easynet Ltd] Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7aka5u$64a$1@quince.news.easynet.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36C9F8E8.4D36@prodigy.net> <36CA1C76.4FA0C1C0@stoneweb.com> <7af5ci$kb@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <7ahvlm$s0@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: nbarnes.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: quince.news.easynet.net 919448574 6282 194.154.98.206 (19 Feb 1999 18:22:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 1999 18:22:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!quince.news.easynet.net!egbert In article , Ariel Scolnicov wrote: >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >>[...] >> As the smoke from CPUs and that from simple gates seems to have all the >> same properties, I am not convinced there's any difference. > >Well, consider the different properties of CPUs and EPROMs. What >_else_ could be responsible? The packaging??? > I think the smoke in EPROMs must be pretty pale stuff - it never seems to smudge up the little window... Of which - dontcha love it when high-velocity smoke gets out of things and takes bits of the casing with it? barnacle http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~nbarnes ###### From: Derrik Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:51:44 -0500 Organization: APK Net Lines: 22 Message-ID: <36CE3F60.72D93F55@apk.net> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36C996BE.DEA@alltel.net> <36c9a42c.0@192.168.0.20> <7acjv6$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: as6-18.apk.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: plonk.apk.net 919486475 17457 207.54.181.18 (20 Feb 1999 04:54:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@apk.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 04:54:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i586) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!plonk.apk.net!news.apk.net!not-for-mail Eric Smith wrote: > Derrik writes: > > I had this one book for my Commodore 64 that cost $24.95 and had every little > > detail about the machine and included a schematic. I think about all the Mac > > The 64 Programmer's Reference or whatever it was called was a pretty good > book, but still not up to the quality of the DEC manuals Tony is talking > about. If you discover that a part in your PDP-8 is broken, and you can no > longer get an exact replacement, the PDP-8 maintenance manuals and prints > are sufficiently detailed that you can figure out how to build a replacement. > What are you going to do when the VIC-II or SID chip in your Commodore 64 > breaks? > > Of course, this is a problem with ASICs in general. Good point. I'm a software engineer. I was mostly thinking from a software point of veiw. - Derrik ###### From: das@picknowl.com.au (David Simpson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Message-ID: <36ccbcd5.4879866@news.picknowl.com.au> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <919361841.19282.0.nnrp-02.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 95 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 04:53:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.24.76.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nswpull.telstra.net 919483078 203.24.76.187 (Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:57:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:57:58 EST Organization: Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!139.130.250.2!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!139.130.250.4.MISMATCH!nswpull.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:17:21 GMT, dg@ (David Given) wrote: >In article , >Ariel Scolnicov wrote: >[...] >>And you still needed to pay extra for the Advanced User Guide, if you >>really wanted to know what the entry points did. > >The Standard guide contained basic information on most of them; it told >you about the simple ones (OSWRCH, OSASCII, OSGETCH, etc) and it listed >the complex ones (OSBYTE and OSWORD). There wasn't much information on the >latter, but there was enough to get started on. And there was enough >information from other (easily available) sources that you didn't have to >get the Advanced guide unless you were really serious. > >...and once you did have it, it gave you more information than you really >knew what to do with. In depth descriptions of each and every one of the >6502 opcodes; each and every standard OSBYTE and OSWORD calls, and there >were a *lot* of them; all the hairy details of the FRED, JIM and SHEILA >memory areas... > >I *still* think the BBC operating system is one of the most elegant I've >seen. > >(For other 8-bitters who don't know it, one of the prime directives of >programming on the BBC was that you never, ever, touched hardware or OS >internals unless you really had to. You always went via the OS entry >points. This allowed lots of fun stuff, like redirecting the input and >output streams invisibly, or allowing an application ROM to call an >abstracted file system call --- and the operating system would determine >which filing system it was, map the filing system's ROM into memory *on >top of* the application ROM, perform the transaction, put the application >ROM back again, and continue invisibly. And all of this on a 64kB machine >with, usually, 32kB of RAM. The operating system was 12kB and you could >have up to 16 16kB application ROM's.) A very similar system to the contemporary Amstrad range of 8 bit machines. These, I believe, took the concept a bit further in that 64 Kb or 128 Kb of RAM was present in the machine. 16 Kb was used for screen memory, a small amount of RAM was used by the OS and the balance was available for applications. BASIC had some 43Kb available for applications and data. The operating system ROM (16 Kb) was switched in and out of the address space as needed. 15 application ROM's were available as the disk drive ROM permanently resided in slot 7. Each attached ROM was initialised at start up and could set up its own entry commands as RSX's. (Resident System eXtensions) The BASIC had a convention that allowed access to these RSX's by prefixing them with a "|" character. For example to boot to the CP/M O/S you typed |cpm and this jumped to the routine to read the first sector of the disk etc. Most of the CP/M 2.2 OS was actually in the Disk ROM. The system included a Jump Block of system calls which were used to do everything from placing a character on the screen to outputting sound through the sound chip. Each entry in the jump block consisted of a three byte entry which could be patched to point to your own routine if you so desired. You did need the firmware guide to know what parameters were needed and how to pass them to the call. Generally some character in the A register and an address in either the HL and or DE registers. On the 128 Kb machine the second 64 Kb bank could be switched into the address space at either 4000H or C000H. The C000H was the screen memory so you could setup a screen in memory at 4000H and then switch it into the system as screen memory giving instant screen updates. Most effective if done during vertical fly back. The firmware guide was clear and thorough; an excellent piece of documentation. The original manual that came with the machine was fairly thick and included the full description of each BASIC and CP/M command given in a precise and consistent manner. A tutorial was included for BASIC to give the beginner an introduction to the language. Descriptions of all the pin outs were given for the printer, disk drive, joystick, sound and expansion ports. Some timing details were touched on for the printer port. The graphic detail for the characters in the character set and how to change them is also described. There was even a section on binary and hexadecimal. All in all an excellent piece of documentation. Other documentation was available at a reasonable price. The Advanced BASIC guide went into considerable detail about the dialect available in the machine. The Firmware guide detailed the system calls and the various interfaces the machine used, the way to setup your own RSX's and designing your own ROM's. There was also a repair manual which detailed the hardware and gave complete circuit diagrams for the machine with voltage and test point details. I'm only sorry that Amstrad didn't continue the excellent documentation when they started producing PC compatible machines. That's probably one of the reasons they are no longer in business. David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Anatomy: Something that everybody has, but it looks better on a girl. ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 20 Feb 1999 20:16:39 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <7an578$m3@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <919361841.19282.0.nnrp-02.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <36ccbcd5.4879866@news.picknowl.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919543779 nnrp-08:14360 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail David Simpson (das@picknowl.com.au) wrote: : I'm only sorry that Amstrad didn't continue the excellent : documentation when they started producing PC compatible machines. They still produced _some_ useful documentation, though. For some of the PC compatibles there was a technical manual that documented the BIOS interface calls and the interface pinouts. There were also service manual (I don't know the last machine for which there was a service manual, but it was pretty recent). Amstrad service manuals are schematics + parts lists + exploded diagrams only, but that's all you need. Incidentally, there's a somewhat strange thing in the Portable PC documentation. The tech manual states (I am quoting from memory, so it's probably misworded) 'Telecommunication Regulations prevent us from disclosing any information on the operation or circuitry of the internal modem'. The service manual (freely available) gives a schematic + parts list of the modem. Go figure. For all Amstrads are cheap, plastic machines, I don't mind fixing them because docs and spares tend to be easy to get. Unlike some manufacturers I could name. : That's probably one of the reasons they are no longer in business. I don't know if they still make computers, but I thought they still made TVs/VCRs/etc. : David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au -tony ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36C656CB.C172315E@plano.net> <36c7c219.8304242@news.newsguy.com> <36C6FA0A.FF94FC28@bellsouth.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) From: jasnider@shell1.iglou.com (Pat Larkin) NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.107.41.17 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.107.41.17 Message-ID: <36cf52df.0@news.iglou.com> Date: 20 Feb 1999 19:27:11 -0500 X-Trace: 20 Feb 1999 19:27:11 -0500, 192.107.41.17 Lines: 18 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: news-incoming.iglou.com Organization: IgLou Internet Services, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!WCG!198.6.0.215!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in4.uu.net!news.iglou.com!shell1!jasnider David Scheidt writes: >Nick Spalding wrote: > >There is a unit of measure called a cable mile. It is about three meters >longer than a standard nautical mile. What's up with that? >David Perhaps to make up for cable sag? Or changes in length due to temperature changes? Pat Larkin First initial Last name Shift-2 iglou.com -- ###### From: das@picknowl.com.au (David Simpson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Message-ID: <36cfa06e.540077@news.picknowl.com.au> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <919361841.19282.0.nnrp-02.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <36ccbcd5.4879866@news.picknowl.com.au> <7an578$m3@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 06:11:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.24.76.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nswpull.telstra.net 919574175 203.24.76.42 (Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:16:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:16:15 EST Organization: Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!139.130.250.4.MISMATCH!nswpull.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 20 Feb 1999 20:16:39 -0000, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >David Simpson (das@picknowl.com.au) wrote: >: That's probably one of the reasons they are no longer in business. > >I don't know if they still make computers, but I thought they still made >TVs/VCRs/etc. > >: David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au > >-tony Sorry Tony. Amstrad plc closed their door on 31 July 1997. David Simpson das@picknowl.com.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Anatomy: Something that everybody has, but it looks better on a girl. ###### From: spalding@iol.ie (Nick Spalding) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:39:01 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 18 Message-ID: <36daefcb.64197877@news.iol.ie> References: <7a88tj$a36@netaxs.com> <36CA18AA.525E92B5@apk.net> <919256056.29554.0.nnrp-04.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <919361841.19282.0.nnrp-02.9e9878e0@news.demon.co.uk> <36ccbcd5.4879866@news.picknowl.com.au> <7an578$m3@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-0225.dublin.iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!iol!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > For all Amstrads are cheap, plastic machines, I don't mind fixing them > because docs and spares tend to be easy to get. Unlike some manufacturers > I could name. I have two 1512s from 1987, one in full working order and the other with an intermittent hard disk problem - some days it will boot and some days it won't. One worked for me full time until 1993, one of my sons had the other (the better one) until a couple of years ago. Not the least of their charms was the fact that the backup battery was accessible from outside the case and consisted of plain AA cells which lasted two or three years and were cheap and easy to obtain. The manual that came with those has a far better description of the DOS commands than any other I have seen. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: korpela@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 22 Feb 1999 17:39:00 GMT Organization: Cal Berkeley-- Space Sciences Lab Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7as4nk$jte$1@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <36C63A37.3ED@alltel.net> <36c7ff5f.23992392@news.newsguy.com> <7a9j67$ag9$1@eve.enteract.com> <36cf52df.0@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: islay.ssl.berkeley.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!agate!islay.ssl.berkeley.edu!korpela In article <36cf52df.0@news.iglou.com>, Pat Larkin wrote: >David Scheidt wrote: >>There is a unit of measure called a cable mile. It is about three meters >>longer than a standard nautical mile. What's up with that? > Or changes in length due to >temperature changes? That's a good idea. At what temperature is sea water most dense? ~2C? How much will a cable shrink between 18C and 2C? The Linear Expansion coefficient of Teflon is about 1.0e-4 /C. I'd assume that most cable insulation is similar (and far outshrinks the copper). That gives almost exactly 3 meters per nautical mile of contraction. We may have a winner! Eric -- Eric Korpela | An object at rest can never be korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu | stopped. Click for home page. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 22 Feb 1999 20:04:37 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7asd8l$nr1$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: <36cfa06e.540077@news.picknowl.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-019.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 919713877 24417 194.247.41.23 (22 Feb 1999 20:04:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 1999 20:04:37 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1999-02-21 das@picknowl.com.au(DavidSimpson) said: :>I don't know if they still make computers, but I thought they :>still made TVs/VCRs/etc. :Sorry Tony. Amstrad plc closed their door on 31 July 1997. The Amstrad name *is* still used in this country. I believe Amstrad's consumer electronics division became part of the same vast conglomerate that also turns out boxes for Bush, Alba, etc.etc. And Amstrad's computer division merged with Viglen (losing its identity in the process). I think AMS has shares in Viglen. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: sam@greenaumARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.demon.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:43:31 GMT Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Message-ID: <36de8083.2241820@158.152.254.70> References: <36cfa06e.540077@news.picknowl.com.au> <7asd8l$nr1$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> Reply-To: sam@greenaumARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 919896220 nnrp-06:22052 NO-IDENT greenaum.demon.co.uk:194.222.71.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!greenaum.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail It was actually a "reverse takeover" sort of thing, where Betacom, who were owned by Amstrad and make cheap answering machines and phones, bought them out, but AFAIK the company is still pretty much the same. A guy called Cliff Lawson who's their chief engineer sometimes posts to comp.sys.amstrad.8bit. Actually they never made anything, the things they sold, they would design and then put a tender round for who could produce it cheapest. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The person who said he was a crap presenter knows nothing because compared to the outwardly camp stuart miles, speech impediment Katy Hill and nothing upstairs Konnie Huq, he was a true professional. Heh heh heh. ###### From: "AndyC" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:27:17 -0000 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7b4ise$i58@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <36cfa06e.540077@news.picknowl.com.au> <7asd8l$nr1$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <36de8083.2241820@158.152.254.70> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak6d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news sam@greenaumARSE!ARSE!ARSE!.demon.co.uk wrote in message <36de8083.2241820@158.152.254.70>... :It was actually a "reverse takeover" sort of thing, where Betacom, who :were owned by Amstrad and make cheap answering machines and phones, :bought them out, but AFAIK the company is still pretty much the same. The betacom thing was a way of shedding off a load of bits of the company, like Viglen, as I understand it. Alan Sugar was a major shareholder in betacom and unsurprisingly the company name was changed back to Amstrad almost immeadiately. :A guy called Cliff Lawson who's their chief engineer sometimes posts :to comp.sys.amstrad.8bit. And a very nice and knowledgeable chap he is as well. :Actually they never made anything, the things they sold, they would :design and then put a tender round for who could produce it cheapest. Maybe true of some of their hifi's and satelite/tv type equipment, but they manufactured the CPC and Spectrum ranges themselves AFAIR. Of course, I may be wrong. AndyC ###### From: prezky@apple.com (Michael Press) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:42:28 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> <7a7ts6$8qq@top.mitre.org> <36C787B2.2CAF@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clank.mae.apple.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!clank.mae.apple.com!user In article <36C787B2.2CAF@alltel.net>, p98mccabe@alltel.net wrote: > Joe Morris wrote: > > > The Tech Model Railway Club ("TMRC") at MIT (proud owner and operator > > of the Tech Nickel Plate Railroad) had a massive (and rather realistic) > > relay-control design for its control system. One of the entries in > > the TMRC Dictionary (ca. 1962) was: > > > > Operating Session: 12 members versus 1200 relays > > Ahah! > > The MIT Pioneers then DID have an appreciation of Relay Logic! > How come they forget to write it up? > They graduated, went to Maynard, and built the PDP-10. -- Michael Press prezky@apple.com ###### From: jtkare@ibm.net (Jordin Kare) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:09:07 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> <7a7ts6$8qq@top.mitre.org> <36C787B2.2CAF@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.134.245.111 X-Trace: 920080784 ZXLLVRGPSF56FCD86C usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!remarQ69!ppp-asok07--111.sirius.net!user > > Joe Morris wrote: > > > > > The Tech Model Railway Club ("TMRC") at MIT (proud owner and operator > > > of the Tech Nickel Plate Railroad) had a massive (and rather realistic) > > > relay-control design for its control system. One of the entries in > > > the TMRC Dictionary (ca. 1962) was: > > > > > > Operating Session: 12 members versus 1200 relays > > > > Ahah! > > > > The MIT Pioneers then DID have an appreciation of Relay Logic! One of the more amusing things I recall posted on the TMRC bulletin board circa 1978 was an article from a model railroad magazine about a very early microprocessor-based rail layout controller. Used an 8008, I think. The lead paragraph said (paraphrasing; it's been a long time): "The microprocessor makes it possible to control a layout of this complexity automatically. Using relays to build such a control system would be completely impractical" Of course, the TMRC layout was substantially more complex than the one in the article, and one could stand there and read the article while listening to its all-relay control system clicking away across the room... Jordin (Of course, TMRC *was* completely impractical) Kare ###### From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: _Really_ Old Computers Date: 27 Feb 1999 17:53:05 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 44 Message-ID: <7b9be1$olt@top.mitre.org> References: <7a6tg8$128@netaxs.com> <7a7ts6$8qq@top.mitre.org> <36C787B2.2CAF@alltel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mwunix.mitre.org Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!world!blanket.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!mwunix!jcmorris jtkare@ibm.net (Jordin Kare) writes: >One of the more amusing things I recall posted on the TMRC bulletin board >circa 1978 was an article from a model railroad magazine about a very >early microprocessor-based rail layout controller. Used an 8008, I >think. The lead paragraph said (paraphrasing; it's been a long time): >"The microprocessor makes it possible to control a layout of this >complexity automatically. Using relays to build such a control system >would be completely impractical" >Of course, the TMRC layout was substantially more complex than the one in >the article, and one could stand there and read the article while >listening to its all-relay control system clicking away across the room... >Jordin (Of course, TMRC *was* completely impractical) Kare For just about any small club *other* than TMRC, a computer-controlled system *would* be impractical if you assume reasonable limits on the available funds to purchase components. TMRC, in addition to having some of the brains from MIT, DEC, and who- knows-where-else-in-the-area, had lots of alumni at large high-tech companies around the country, and it wasn't unknown for the club to be the recipient of hard-to-find, expensive components from these companies. Bell Labs and other parts of the Bell System were especially generous. Whether the companies ever knew about their generosity is a different issue about which I have no proof one way or another. Like most educational institutions, MIT required that its clubs submit an annual report stating, among other items, the value of its property. In the early 1960s (and probably for several years beyond) TMRC gave a figure of $69,969.69 which was probably well below the actual replacement cost of the layout, especially if one tried to reconstruct it with parts purchased from Graybar. Does anyone here have a reliable date for the installation of the first electronic computer into the TMRC layout? When I last saw it (in 1963) the only use of electronic computers was to calculate train schedules, and that was done using the IBM 7090 in building 26. Joe Morris