Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: sizeof(old_minis) Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:39:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.212.106.44 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 917825988 141.212.106.44 (Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:39:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:39:48 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit A question which demonstrates my relative youth and absolute inexperience (but which I've obviously decided to ask anyway) has occurred to me. How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally implemented? How would (say) Minix on a 286 (Intel-CISC, ~10 MHz, 1M RAM, 80 or so MB HD, but alas, no blinkenlights) compare to the first Unices on the old DEC machines? Minix has something vi-ish, hence curses, and there is networking stuff out there, of course, but how different would running Minix on a machine like the one I've described, be from a PDP-(7--11) with a hacked copy of v.7--Sys-III? Naturally, the reason I ask is that I've obtained an old beastie, as described, and am now wondering how the experience of using it after I replace the stuff on the hard disk with an operating system will compare to the Early Days. -- Sergej Roytman ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 1 Feb 1999 02:32:26 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!128.255.56.80!news.uiowa.edu!not-for-mail From article <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, by ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman): > How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally > implemented? How would (say) Minix on a 286 (Intel-CISC, ~10 MHz, > 1M RAM, 80 or so MB HD, but alas, no blinkenlights) compare to the > first Unices on the old DEC machines? The PDP-11/45 had, if memory serves me right, only 18 bits of address in its first incarnation. That means 256K bytes, maximum, of main memory. The standard rack-mount disk drives of the era had perhaps 4 meg capacity, and the top-loading free-standing drives were around 40 meg. By 1975, things were bigger, but not by more than a factor of two. > Minix has something vi-ish, hence curses, Curses is a BSD innovation, unknown in the early Bell Labs UNIX world. VI is also a BSD innovation, if my memory serves me correctly. To experience the early days, learn to edit using ed. It's still there on most UNIXes I use. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 02:49:41 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies Lines: 34 Message-ID: <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!den-news-01.qwest.net!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Sergej Roytman asks: > > How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally > implemented? How would (say) Minix on a 286 (Intel-CISC, ~10 MHz, > 1M RAM, 80 or so MB HD, but alas, no blinkenlights) compare to the > first Unices on the old DEC machines? Minix has something vi-ish, > hence curses, and there is networking stuff out there, of course, but > how different would running Minix on a machine like the one I've > described, be from a PDP-(7--11) with a hacked copy of v.7--Sys-III? > The very first Unix ran on the PDP-7 in 8K of 18-bit words, divided 4KW for the system, 4KW for user programs, which were always swapped on a process switch. Although some of the facilities that exist today were there then, it was very different in others (e.g. the file system was not hierarchical, though it had the shape of a general graph.) The first PDP-11 had 12KW (16-bit) or 24KB, 16K for the system and 8K for users. This was 1969-71. Neither had any sort of memory management. However, the file system and system calls were essentially similar to those that survive. Around 1972 we had a PDP-11/45 that did have memory management and did multiprogram. A version of the SOSP paper that became the C.ACM paper on Unix says it had 104KB of memory. By 1978 we had a PDP-11/70 with 768KB of memory. This approaches the Seventh-edition and System III era. Check undor my home page, http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr for some of this history, e.g. the First Edition manual (1971). Dennis ###### X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Sender: wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) From: wkt@css.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Message-ID: <36b519c1.0@news.adfa.oz.au> Date: 1 Feb 99 03:04:33 GMT Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.236.253.20 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.236.253.20 X-Trace: 1 Feb 1999 14:04:36 +1000, 131.236.253.20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!clarion.carno.net.au!news.adfa.oz.au!henry.cs.adfa.edu.au!wkt In article <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, |> How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally |> implemented? For a picture of Dennis and Ken at a PDP-11/20 console, see http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html I can't answer for the relative speeds of the various PDP-11s against a 10MHz AT. However, there is a big difference between the size of the early Unix and Minix kernels. UNIX kernels up to 1979 (i.e V7) were usually around 25Kbytes in size (as a file on disk). From memory, the kernel image for Minix 1.1 was 90Kbytes. Before V7, UNIX could run on a machine with 256Kbytes of memory. |> Naturally, the reason I ask is that I've obtained an old beastie, as |> described, and am now wondering how the experience of using it after I |> replace the stuff on the hard disk with an operating system will |> compare to the Early Days. See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/ for details on getting UNIX onto your old beastie. Warren -- There is only one s in my email address ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman) Lines: 29 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 05:41:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.212.106.44 X-Trace: srvr1.engin.umich.edu 917847664 141.212.106.44 (Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:41:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:41:04 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!ftit In article <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: >From article <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, by ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman): >> Minix has something vi-ish, hence curses, >Curses is a BSD innovation, unknown in the early Bell Labs UNIX world. >VI is also a BSD innovation, if my memory serves me correctly. To >experience the early days, learn to edit using ed. It's still there on >most UNIXes I use. Yes. Bill Joy (now at Sun), no? As far as I know, ed is still a part of the usual Unix distribution, along with the other utility-type programs, even on Unices that don't come with C compilers by default. As far as experiencing the early days, well, for better or worse, those are now gone. I think that they must have been a rather wild, exciting time, and they certainly produced some interesting stories (as discussed in this newsgroup). There's something appealing about a system small enough for one person to understand completely. I remain hopeful, however, that the present times will also yield their share of folklore. At least, there's some highly cool stuff happening in AI, where I'm working on a degree or two (not sure which or how, yet, pending the results of a search for funding)---and some of it is even complicated enough to keep a modern computer busy! Thank you all for your replies. -- Sergej Roytman ###### From: l.lopez@worldnet.att.net (max and marisa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 1 Feb 1999 05:44:01 GMT Organization: We don't need any Lines: 39 Message-ID: <793ev1$gpj@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.66.33.187 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm In article <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, jones@cs.uiowa.edu says... > >From article <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, by ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman): > >> How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally >> implemented? How would (say) Minix on a 286 (Intel-CISC, ~10 MHz, >> 1M RAM, 80 or so MB HD, but alas, no blinkenlights) compare to the >> first Unices on the old DEC machines? > >The PDP-11/45 had, if memory serves me right, only 18 bits of address >in its first incarnation. That means 256K bytes, maximum, of main memory. Quit trip to the 11/45 console: Yep, switches labeled 0 to 17, 18 lights for the address and 16 for the data. Unfortunaely the only things I have from the PDP 11/45 is the console, rack and core memory. Max >The standard rack-mount disk drives of the era had perhaps 4 meg capacity, >and the top-loading free-standing drives were around 40 meg. By 1975, >things were bigger, but not by more than a factor of two. > And of course a lot slower. But much more fun to take apart. Max -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Froedge Two wrongs do not | | l.lopez@worldnet.att.net make a right | | max@testmark.com But three lefts | | HTTP://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/5517 Do! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: l.lopez@worldnet.att.net (max and marisa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 1 Feb 1999 05:50:39 GMT Organization: We don't need any Lines: 27 Message-ID: <793fbf$gpj@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36b519c1.0@news.adfa.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.66.33.187 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm In article <36b519c1.0@news.adfa.oz.au>, wkt@css.adfa.oz.au says... > >See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/ for details on getting UNIX >onto your old beastie. > Something which has been bothering me: PUPS page lists 2.9 BSD as being usable on a 11/23 system. But its a Q-bus and only DEC Unibus devices are listed. Is the 11/23 listed because it has the same cpu chipset as the 11/24 and its up to the user to figure out how to write the Q-bus drivers? Max > Warren >-- >There is only one s in my email address -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Froedge Two wrongs do not | | l.lopez@worldnet.att.net make a right | | max@testmark.com But three lefts | | HTTP://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/5517 Do! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 08:23:00 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <36B56464.1B5472E1@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 917858110 disrupt:19051 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: > The PDP-11/45 had, if memory serves me right, only 18 bits of address > in its first incarnation. That means 256K bytes, maximum, of main memory. Correct. By the time you got to the 11/23+ you had 22 bits giving 4 meg (I had one of the few machines fully populated with third party memory, which revealed an odd bug in the boot ROM), less the 8k device register page at the top. Gladys, as the 11/23+ was affectionately known, is still in the rack, although not on power, but is believed still to be in working order. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 08:33:06 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <36B566C2.6431617B@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36b519c1.0@news.adfa.oz.au> <793fbf$gpj@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 917858111 disrupt:19051 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail max and marisa wrote: > > In article <36b519c1.0@news.adfa.oz.au>, wkt@css.adfa.oz.au says... > PUPS page lists 2.9 BSD as being usable on a 11/23 system. But its a > Q-bus and only DEC Unibus devices are listed. Is the 11/23 listed > because it has the same cpu chipset as the 11/24 and its up to the user > to figure out how to write the Q-bus drivers? For many devices, such as the "four register" serial and parallel ports, there is no difference between a Unibus and a Q-bus driver. You may have some problems with mass storage devices, although DEC tended to standardise the interfaces to avoid having to write new drivers for all the OS variants. In the end (ie by the time the 11/23 came out) the interface to the disks and tapes was standardised as MSCP and TMSCP, and any MSCP/TMSCP driver will (or should) drive any device. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 1 Feb 1999 08:58:26 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 19 Message-ID: <793qbi$qr6$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <793ev1$gpj@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: toyunix.zl2tnm.gen.nz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!203.97.37.7!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!don max and marisa wrote: [pdp11/45] >And of course a lot slower. Not really. An 8 MHz '286 was about .5 MIPS, ditto for the 11/45. The pdp11 range rather plateued in the CPU grunt stakes after the 11/45; the later 11/70 introduced 22 bit memory addressing and a MASSBUS to memory DMA (as opposed to the 11/45 which had to go through the UNIBUS), but was actually slightly slower in the CPU department. pdp11 fans didn't get a faster CPU until the 18 MHz 11/8xs came out in the mid 80s. 'course the peripherals got better, but a mid-80s full-height 5.25" 20 MB disk wasn't significantly faster than the washing machines of the mid 70s. 80 MB disks were likely to be a bit quicker tho, but for something like that in a PC/AT class machine you're talking late 80s, not '83 or '84 when the AT came out. -- Don Stokes, Networking Consultant http://www.daedalus.co.nz +64 25 739 724 ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 1 Feb 1999 09:20:13 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 23 Message-ID: <793rkd$7qi$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36b519c1.0@news.adfa.oz.au> <793fbf$gpj@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: toyunix.zl2tnm.gen.nz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!203.97.37.7!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!don In article <793fbf$gpj@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, max and marisa wrote: >PUPS page lists 2.9 BSD as being usable on a 11/23 system. But its a >Q-bus and only DEC Unibus devices are listed. Is the 11/23 listed >because it has the same cpu chipset as the 11/24 and its up to the user >to figure out how to write the Q-bus drivers? Equivalent Qbus & Unibus devices look the same to software. The physical bus is a little different -- UNIBUS has separate address and data lines, Qbus has multiplexed lines, the interrupt grant is different and a Qbus can have 16, 18 or 22 bits of address -- but otherwise they acheive very similar aims and (mostly) get mapped the same way onto the memory map. So for example, a driver, bootstrap, whatever for an RL11 (UNIBUS controller for the RL01 5MB cartridge drive) works fine with an RLV11 (the Qbus equivalent). Of course the early Qbus systems didn't have the range of peripheral controllers available to the UNIBUS systems. I'm not sure if 2.9 BSD predates MSCP -- if it does support MSCP devices, it'll handle almost any Qbus or UNIBUS disk controller introduced after about 1981 or so. -- Don Stokes, Networking Consultant http://www.daedalus.co.nz +64 25 739 724 ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:10:33 -0800 Organization: Simco Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7951lv$7st$1@remarQ.com> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.168.124.145 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 917899775 EWMV79OYA7C91CFA8C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote in message <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>... >The PDP-11/45 had, if memory serves me right, only 18 bits of address >in its first incarnation. That means 256K bytes, maximum, of main memory. >The standard rack-mount disk drives of the era had perhaps 4 meg capacity, >and the top-loading free-standing drives were around 40 meg. By 1975, >things were bigger, but not by more than a factor of two. > IIRC the disk of choice for an 11/45 was the RK06 (14MB removable pack), followed by the RK07 (28MB). The low end drives were RK05s (5MB fixed or 2.5MB removable), the high end was the RP06 (120MB ? something around that). Jack Peacock ###### Message-ID: <36B5E69E.47D410FC@trailing-edge.com> From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.0 DEC 3000 Model 300L) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <7951lv$7st$1@remarQ.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:38:39 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.232.144.27 X-Trace: audrey2.cais.com 917909230 198.232.144.27 (Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:47:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:47:10 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.idt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!-program!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!199.0.216.204.MISMATCH!audrey2.cais.com!not-for-mail Jack Peacock wrote: > > Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote in > message <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>... > >The PDP-11/45 had, if memory serves me right, only 18 bits > of address > >in its first incarnation. That means 256K bytes, maximum, > of main memory. > >The standard rack-mount disk drives of the era had perhaps > 4 meg capacity, > >and the top-loading free-standing drives were around 40 > meg. By 1975, > >things were bigger, but not by more than a factor of two. > > > IIRC the disk of choice for an 11/45 was the RK06 (14MB > removable pack), followed by the RK07 (28MB). It depends on when your 11/45 was delivered! The RK06 and RK07 certainly weren't available at the 11/45's introduction in mid-1972. Doug's comments about the available drives were very much on the large size for a typical 11/45 installation in the early 70's. In the early 70's, it was likely that a "decked out" 11/45 installation would have a head-per- track disk for swapping and/or very-commonly-used storage. > The low end > drives were RK05s (5MB fixed or 2.5MB removable) These became available in the mid-70's, and weren't necessarily "low end" at the time - lots of multi-user interactive systems had nothing but RK05's on them. > the high > end was the RP06 (120MB ? something around that). The larger massbus drives came in the late 70's and early/mid 80's. (About the same time that the RK06/RK07 were common.) The RP06 is 176 Megabytes, the RM80 is 124 Megabytes, the RM05 is 256 Megabytes, and the RP07 is 516 Megabytes. (The introduction of the RP07 in 1980 or so caused considerable rework to be done on the PDP-11 OS's to allow for support for such a large device.) If you want to talk about "high end", I know of one 11/45 in service that has 24 Gbytes of SCSI drives on it at the moment. (12 drives, 2 SCSI busses.) Oh, yeah, don't forget the several hundred channels of A/D and D/A too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 01 Feb 1999 21:28:16 +0800 Organization: The University of Western Australia Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail Dennis Ritchie writes: > Sergej Roytman asks: > > > > How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally > > implemented? How would (say) Minix on a 286 (Intel-CISC, ~10 MHz, > > 1M RAM, 80 or so MB HD, but alas, no blinkenlights) compare to the > The very first Unix ran on the PDP-7 in 8K of 18-bit words, divided > 4KW for the system, 4KW for user programs, which were always > swapped on a process switch. Although some of the facilities that > exist today were there then, it was very different in others (e.g. > the file system was not hierarchical, though it had the shape > of a general graph.) > > The first PDP-11 had 12KW (16-bit) or 24KB, 16K for the system > and 8K for users. This was 1969-71. Neither had any sort of memory > management. However, the file system and system calls were essentially > similar to those that survive. So I'd guess that was a full 19" rack for CPU, mem and controllers, and perhaps a second for disks. > Around 1972 we had a PDP-11/45 that did have memory management > and did multiprogram. A version of the SOSP paper that became > the C.ACM paper on Unix says it had 104KB of memory. As above for size? > > By 1978 we had a PDP-11/70 with 768KB of memory. This approaches the > Seventh-edition and System III era. One for the CPU, a second rack for 3 memory boxes ( 3 x 256KW ) plus 2 PR04s and a tape? Each drive is the floor area of a full rack but only 4' or so high. And about 600lb. Each. Full rack for a mag tape. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 01 Feb 1999 22:01:43 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 1 Feb 1999 22:02:51 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Dennis Ritchie writes: > The consoles are probably Decwriters. You can't fool me! I'd recognize the Teletype ASR-33 anywhere! ;-) I want one. Why, oh, why did I ever give mine away? I've got plenty of LA36 DECwriters if someone wants to trade one for an ASR-33. The DECwriter is for the most part a nicer terminal (faster, has lower case, nicer font) unless you want a paper tape reader/punch. ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:20:44 +0000 Organization: Cannine Computer Center Lines: 28 Message-ID: <36B628BB.67414762@plano.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: richmond@plano.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.44.41.137 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 917929027 R67V8VHUD2989D12CC usenet58.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) To: Sergej Roytman Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail Sergej Roytman wrote: > > In article <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, > Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: > >From article <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, by ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman): > >> Minix has something vi-ish, hence curses, > >Curses is a BSD innovation, unknown in the early Bell Labs UNIX world. > >VI is also a BSD innovation, if my memory serves me correctly. To > >experience the early days, learn to edit using ed. It's still there on > >most UNIXes I use. > > Yes. Bill Joy (now at Sun), no? As far as I know, ed is still a part > of the usual Unix distribution, along with the other utility-type > programs, even on Unices that don't come with C compilers by default. > Bill Joy wrote ex and *most* of vi. Bill Joy is the vice president of technology at Sun Microsystems, last I heard. Mr. Joy also invented the termcap system to allow vi to run on *most* terminals. (You have to have an addressable cursor and a clear screen capability, I think.) A man named John Horton wrote the "map" and "ab" facilities of vi. The "map" facility allows the definition of keyboard macros. "ab" lets you define abbreviations. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:16:57 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies Lines: 33 Message-ID: <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Paul Repacholi in the referenced article talks aboout physical size of the well-stocked PDP-11s. Yes, they tended to occupy (though not fully) several fridge-sized racks. Take a look at http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html which shows me and Ken and an 11. The date is wrong, it would be around 1971 or later. The consoles are probably Decwriters. The righmost visible cabinet seems to house an 11/20 CPU; the two boxes below it are extension boxes with PDP-11 system units. I don't know what's in the cabinet next to the left. Maybe another extension box. Next to the left are two rack/cabinets with two DECtape drives one of which had the controller. Next left is a rack with two disks, probably RK03, which were made by Diablo (later subsumed into Xerox); a substantially identical product was later manufactured (instead of OEMed) as the RK05 by Digital. Leftmost (behind Ken's head) is a cabinet with either 2 or 3 RS-11/RF-11 fixed-head disks. Not too long after this one or two RP03 disks (washing-machine style) would have appeared at the far left, with another cabinet for the controller. Most of the little white rectangles that could be lights are actually the paper labels on DECtape media boxes. There was a lot of empty space in this seemingly huge array of racks, and it was used for storage. Dennis ###### X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Sender: wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) From: wkt@css.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> Message-ID: <36b68f85.0@news.adfa.oz.au> Date: 2 Feb 99 05:39:17 GMT Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.236.253.20 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.236.253.20 X-Trace: 2 Feb 1999 16:39:16 +1000, 131.236.253.20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!clarion.carno.net.au!news.adfa.oz.au!henry.cs.adfa.edu.au!wkt In article <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com>, Dennis Ritchie writes: |> http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html |> |> which shows me and Ken and an 11. The date is wrong, it would be around |> 1971 or later. Here's some email I received on this image: John Holden johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au says: The cabinets from left to right are probably :- 1) TU-10 tape drive (almost completely obscured by ken) 2) RF-11 disk controller (panel at top of cabinet) 3) RK03 disks (apparently compatible with RK05's) 4) TU56 DECtape (the beasts were block replaceable and could behave like a disk drive) 5) TU56 6) PC-11 paper tape reader/punch. There is just a glimpse of a PDP11/35-45 hidden by the second ASR33 under the punch (probably 11/45). 7) PDP11/20. It's not one of the earliest, since you can clearly see the /20 on the decal. 8) In the shadows to the right is a VT01A display (Tektronix 611 storage display) Warren adds: According to the PDP-11 FAQ at http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html, the 11/20 was introduced in June 1970. Dennis Ritchie says that the 11/20 ``came during the summer of 1970'', that being the Northern Hemisphere summer. It came without any disks; they arrived several months later. Therefore, the photo must date from the end of 1970, or 1971. Warren ---- There is only one s in my email address ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 2 Feb 1999 05:52:07 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: toyunix.zl2tnm.gen.nz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!203.97.37.7!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!don Dennis Ritchie wrote: > http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html > The consoles are probably Decwriters. er, they look rather a lot like ASR-33s (looks over shoulder at trusty '33 in the corner -- yep, definitely '33s). DECwriter had a more open stand, and was flatter with a much less sloped keyboard. > The righmost visible cabinet seems to house an 11/20 CPU; the two > boxes below it are extension boxes with PDP-11 system units. Are they? The look like blanking plates, although straight BA11 boxes often had the same plate in front of it. Dunno about the /20, but other boxes of that size tended to have space under them for cables to dangle in when you slid out and tilted up the CPU box. You'd typically put each system box in adjacent cabinets. Not that I'm accusing Bell Labs of being typical. 8-) -- Don Stokes, Networking Consultant http://www.daedalus.co.nz +64 25 739 724 ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:44:30 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies Lines: 18 Message-ID: <36B6BAED.445@bell-labs.com> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Hmmm. Toomey, Stokes, Smith evidently have more advanced photoreconnaissance technology available than I do (or a better scan of the photo). The consoles almost certainly are TTY33s. In fact, that's what I first wrote in the draft news and remembered, but something about the shape of them induced me to change it. The on-off knob on the lower right, below the keyboard, should have been diagnostic. How Warren found the VT01/TEK 611 display is beyond me. Either he's found the less-cropped, or higher-res version, of the photo, or he's being retroactively prescient. It was indeed on the right of the lineup at some point. Stokes is doubtless correct that the BA-11 boxes were somewhat strewn about the racks. Dennis ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:26:13 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <36B6C4B5.A4306CAB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 917947641 disrupt:26172 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Dennis Ritchie wrote: > The consoles are probably Decwriters. Well, sorry to argue, but the shape of the paper changing lid, the space to the right, the keyboard layout, and the feet, all look like Teletypes to me. The Teletype had a little cream coloured lid with a clear window, and the lid lifted for paper changing, with a DecWriter the whole top of the machine came off. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 11:19:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <796oqg$1vt$3@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: d15.dial-22.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 2 Feb 1999 11:50:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.ultranet.com!d15 In article <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: >Dennis Ritchie wrote: >> http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html >> The consoles are probably Decwriters. > >er, they look rather a lot like ASR-33s (looks over shoulder at trusty >'33 in the corner -- yep, definitely '33s). DECwriter had a more open >stand, and was flatter with a much less sloped keyboard. DECwriters were much later than 71. I can't get at the picture, but 33s or 35s were ususally attached to those 11s. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 2 Feb 1999 12:13:27 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 12 Message-ID: <796q57$p4q$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <36B6BAED.445@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul9.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 917957607 25754 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews1.nw.verio.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <36B6BAED.445@bell-labs.com>, Dennis Ritchie wrote: >How Warren found the VT01/TEK 611 display is beyond me. Either >he's found the less-cropped, or higher-res version, of the photo, >or he's being retroactively prescient. It was indeed on the right >of the lineup at some point. The OED doesn't say that "postscient" is a word, but perhaps it should be. In this situation it makes perfect sense! -- Derek ###### From: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk (Hugh Davies) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 2 Feb 1999 13:03:08 GMT Organization: Piglet's Pickles and Preserves Message-ID: <796t2c$e5m@axalotl.demon.co.uk> References: <36B6C4B5.A4306CAB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: huge@nospam.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 917964734 nnrp-11:27966 NO-IDENT axalotl.demon.co.uk:158.152.24.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net x-no-archive: yes Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!axalotl.demon.co.uk!axalotl!usenet In article <36B6C4B5.A4306CAB@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>, Robert Billing writes: >Dennis Ritchie wrote: > >> The consoles are probably Decwriters. > > Well, sorry to argue, but the shape of the paper changing lid, the >space to the right, the keyboard layout, and the feet, all look like >Teletypes to me. The Teletype had a little cream coloured lid with a >clear window, and the lid lifted for paper changing, with a DecWriter >the whole top of the machine came off. I agree. Did not DECwriters have a virtually flat top? They look *very* like Teletypes to me. -- "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse." The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html [Substitute "axalotl" for "nospam" to email me] ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 2 Feb 1999 19:49:42 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 20 Message-ID: <797ksm$q4r$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <7951lv$7st$1@remarQ.com> <36B5E69E.47D410FC@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: toyunix.zl2tnm.gen.nz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!don Tim Shoppa wrote: >The larger massbus drives came in the late 70's and early/mid 80's. I'd have said mid-late 70s / very early 80s. The RA81 SDI disk came out about 1982 or thereabouts, which pretty much spelled the end of the MASSBUS disks. >(About the same time that the RK06/RK07 were common.) The RP06 >is 176 Megabytes, the RM80 is 124 Megabytes, the RM05 is 256 Megabytes, >and the RP07 is 516 Megabytes. (The introduction of the RP07 in >1980 or so caused considerable rework to be done on the PDP-11 OS's >to allow for support for such a large device.) The RP07 wasn't supported on the 11s. (That's not to say it doesn't work -- it does.) The Files-11 ODS1 limitation of 512MB didn't have to have anything done about it until the 600 MB RA82 came out circa '85 or so. -- Don Stokes, Networking Consultant http://www.daedalus.co.nz +64 25 739 724 ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 2 Feb 1999 21:27:25 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <797qjt$si@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 917994126 nnrp-03:28862 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Dennis Ritchie (dmr@bell-labs.com) wrote: : Next left is a rack with two disks, probably RK03, which were made : by Diablo (later subsumed into Xerox); a substantially identical : product : was later manufactured (instead of OEMed) as the RK05 by Digital. Only 'substatially identical' in the capacity (2.5Mbytes or thereabouts), the interface (both could talk to the same RK11-C controller), the disk packs they used (which were compatible both ways) etc. In other words they looked the same to a user or programmer. But if (like me) you repair the things, they're _very_ different. The main differences in the mechanics (the electronics follows along) are : Spindle motor : The RK03 uses a permanent-magnet DC motor (with IIRC electronic speed control), the RK05 has an induction motor run off the mains Positioner : The RK03 uses another permanent magnet motor with a rack-and-pinion drive, the RK05 uses a voice coil Head load solenoid : The RK03 has one, the RK05 doesn't. -tony ###### From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 2 Feb 1999 21:30:07 -0000 Organization: P850 User Group Message-ID: <797qov$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 917994128 nnrp-03:28862 NO-IDENT p850ug1.demon.co.uk:158.152.97.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!p850ug1.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) wrote: : I've got plenty of LA36 DECwriters if someone wants to trade : one for an ASR-33. The DECwriter is for the most part a nicer Nice? It's got that wonderful design feature that ends up burning out the carriage feed motor. Basically a plastic keyway sheers off. The carriage motor then carries on turning even when the carriage hits the end stop. The encoder disk still sends pulses to the logic board. The motor keeps on turning against a much higher than normal load until it burns out... Anyway, ASR33's are a lot easier to repair. -tony ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 00:39:48 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <36B79AD4.F0E1C89F@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <797qov$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 918050563 nnrp-04:1660 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Tony Duell wrote: > Nice? It's got that wonderful design feature that ends up burning out the > carriage feed motor. Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it *screamed* along at 300 baud. This made us blind to most of its major faults, including that b****y LF solonoid. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: John Holden Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:44:22 +1100 Organization: Unoversity of Sydney, Australia Lines: 38 Message-ID: <36B771B6.446B@psych.usyd.edu.au> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <36b68f85.0@news.adfa.oz.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: psychalpha.psych.usyd.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 917991863 21496 129.78.83.6 (2 Feb 1999 21:44:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Feb 1999 21:44:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!192.26.210.166!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!news.usyd.edu.au!not-for-mail Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com>, > Dennis Ritchie writes: > |> http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html > |> > |> which shows me and Ken and an 11. The date is wrong, it would be around > |> 1971 or later. > > Here's some email I received on this image: > > John Holden johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au says: > > The cabinets from left to right are probably :- > > 1) TU-10 tape drive (almost completely obscured by ken) > > 2) RF-11 disk controller (panel at top of cabinet) > > 3) RK03 disks (apparently compatible with RK05's) > > 4) TU56 DECtape (the beasts were block replaceable and could behave like a > disk drive) > > 5) TU56 > > 6) PC-11 paper tape reader/punch. There is just a glimpse of a PDP11/35-45 > hidden by the second ASR33 under the punch (probably 11/45). > > 7) PDP11/20. It's not one of the earliest, since you can clearly see > the /20 on the decal. > > 8) In the shadows to the right is a VT01A display (Tektronix 611 storage > display) > Warren forgot to add that there is ANOTHER PICTURE with more detail, probably taken at the same time for PR. It's in the PUPS archive. ###### That picture would be: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 3 Feb 1999 09:58:51 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7996kr$9e0$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> <796oqg$1vt$3@antiochus.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: toyunix.zl2tnm.gen.nz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!203.97.37.7!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!don In article <796oqg$1vt$3@antiochus.ultra.net>, wrote: >DECwriters were much later than 71. I can't get at the picture, >but 33s or 35s were ususally attached to those 11s. The only reference I can find puts the LA30 DECwriter at 1971, with the LA36 DECwriter II in 1975. I can't verify the 1971 date, but the LA36 is listed (at US$2,350) in a 1976 handbook I've got. The LA36 is in the same style as the later LA120 DECwriter III, ie 132 columns KSR floorstand printer with the tractor feed above the print head. The LA30 is smaller, 72 columns, and low profile, with the tractor feed behind the print head and below the line of the main case. Does anyone know what the LA30 cost, and how that compared to the ASR-33? -- Don Stokes, Networking Consultant http://www.daedalus.co.nz +64 25 739 724 ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 10:57:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <799bti$qea$6@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <797qov$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: d3.dial-15.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 3 Feb 1999 11:28:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.ultranet.com!d3 In article <797qov$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) wrote: >: I've got plenty of LA36 DECwriters if someone wants to trade >: one for an ASR-33. The DECwriter is for the most part a nicer > >Nice? It's got that wonderful design feature that ends up burning out the >carriage feed motor. > >Basically a plastic keyway sheers off. The carriage motor then carries on >turning even when the carriage hits the end stop. The encoder disk still >sends pulses to the logic board. The motor keeps on turning against a >much higher than normal load until it burns out... Yup. We always thought they were junk. There terminal people never asked us for our input, though :-(. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 3 Feb 1999 18:08:26 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <79a3aq$6h2$1@goblin.uunet.ca> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >From article <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, by ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman): > >> How big were the minicomputers on which Unix was originally >> implemented? How would (say) Minix on a 286 (Intel-CISC, ~10 MHz, >> 1M RAM, 80 or so MB HD, but alas, no blinkenlights) compare to the >> first Unices on the old DEC machines? > >The PDP-11/45 had, if memory serves me right, only 18 bits of address >in its first incarnation. That means 256K bytes, maximum, of main memory. >The standard rack-mount disk drives of the era had perhaps 4 meg capacity, >and the top-loading free-standing drives were around 40 meg. By 1975, >things were bigger, but not by more than a factor of two. By 1976, an 11/45 had as you say 256k of addressing, but a system with 60k was still considered "big" in our neck of the woods, and Unix ran very nicely. If we had more money, it probably would have gone first for more disk before more memory. We did experiment with some company's memory cache, it sat between the bus and the real DEC memory, so it looked after disk as well as CPU access. It gave a noticeable performance improvement, but not enough to justify the cost for our site ###### From: atbowler@thinkage.on.ca (Alan Bowler) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 3 Feb 1999 18:25:24 GMT Organization: Thinkage Ltd. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <79a4ak$p1a$1@demon.uunet.ca> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!atbowler In article <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >The standard rack-mount disk drives of the era had perhaps 4 meg capacity, >and the top-loading free-standing drives were around 40 meg. > The rack mount single platter removeable drives held about 1 megabyte. Enough for a test binary single user Unix system, no full source or man pages, but a nice easily rebuilt standalone test environment to test out things like device drivers without risking the productione system environement. ###### From: Robert Billing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 13:49:44 +0000 Organization: Tanglewood Message-ID: <36B9A578.F20C3CFC@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> <796oqg$1vt$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <7996kr$9e0$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 918136773 nnrp-12:22904 NO-IDENT tnglwood.demon.co.uk:158.152.132.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tnglwood.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Don Stokes wrote: > The only reference I can find puts the LA30 DECwriter at 1971, with the > LA36 DECwriter II in 1975. I can't verify the 1971 date, but the LA36 > is listed (at US$2,350) in a 1976 handbook I've got. I think I would agree with those dates, as I ran across my first DecWriter in 1974. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: David Scheidt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 7 Feb 1999 08:34:25 GMT Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server Lines: 17 Message-ID: <79jj6h$d9j$2@eve.enteract.com> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <36B6BAED.445@bell-labs.com> <79jhpi$ds$1@g4klx.agri.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.229.143.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!dscheidt Jonathan Naylor wrote: : As an aside, how difficult would it be to persuade the current licence : owners of the UNIX source code to release the sources for V7 UNIX ? The current license owner is SCO. They will sell you a license for $100, or so. As I recall, it is a pretty restrictive license. I don't know whether it would allow you to port it to something else or not. I also don't know whree to point you to see a copy of the license. I am sure that someone here does. SCO are at http://www.sco.com David Scheidt -- David Scheidt The presumption of the flamers is, I assume, that folks barging in to AFU with tired old stories and off-topic drivel have already ignored the polite and subtle clues, and require a thwack with the clue-by-four. -- Andrew Reid ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 7 Feb 1999 08:43:57 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 29 Message-ID: <79jjod$n9t@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <7951lv$7st$1@remarQ.com> <36B5E69E.47D410FC@trailing-edge.com> <797ksm$q4r$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Don Stokes wrote: : Tim Shoppa wrote: : >The larger massbus drives came in the late 70's and early/mid 80's. [...] : >and the RP07 is 516 Megabytes. (The introduction of the RP07 in : >1980 or so caused considerable rework to be done on the PDP-11 OS's : >to allow for support for such a large device.) : The RP07 wasn't supported on the 11s. (That's not to say it doesn't : work -- it does.) The Files-11 ODS1 limitation of 512MB didn't have to : have anything done about it until the 600 MB RA82 came out circa '85 or : so. The RSX-11M-Plus V4.0 I/O Drivers Reference manual (copyright 1979-1987, chapter 4) lists the RP07 in a table of Standard Disk Devices, along with a text description. No indication that it's not supported. The disk driver is supplied, and "all the disks in this chapter are accessed in essentially the same manner". So that would mean that sometime between 1980 and 1987 it became officially supported? (I suppose a lot can change in 7 years.) FWIW, my high school (1980-83) had two PDP 11/23's, one for attendance, one for hacking in the Computer Center; it ran RT-11 (V4??) off of RX02 floppies ... -- Nick nickz@tribeca.ios.com IC XC + NI KA ###### From: g4klx@g4klx.agri.ch (Jonathan Naylor) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 7 Feb 1999 09:10:26 +0100 Organization: Dis-organised Lines: 15 Message-ID: <79jhpi$ds$1@g4klx.agri.ch> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <36B6BAED.445@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.28.159.151 X-Trace: pollux.ip-plus.net 918375299 27605 212.28.159.151 (7 Feb 1999 08:14:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ip-plus.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 1999 08:14:59 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!not-for-mail As an aside, how difficult would it be to persuade the current licence owners of the UNIX source code to release the sources for V7 UNIX ? At this time we are talking about a time gap of over twenty years since it was released, so no commercial advantage would be lost. I for one would love the challenge of porting it to a PC and having the "Last True UNIX (tm)" available to use. I wouldn't mind if it came with a restrictive licencing scheme, no resale, no commercial use, etc. The alternative of running a PDP-11 and getting a dodgy copy of V7 has occurred to me, but after starting to build an LSI-11 and all the fun of finding the parts at reasonable cost (not), I decided to stay in PC land. Jonathan in Snowy Zurich ###### From: norris@mech.eng.usyd.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 7 Feb 1999 11:05:05 GMT Organization: The University of Sydney, Australia Lines: 14 Message-ID: <79js11$cee$1@metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <36B6BAED.445@bell-labs.com> <79jhpi$ds$1@g4klx.agri.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ebb.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 918385505 12750 129.78.14.203 (7 Feb 1999 11:05:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 1999 11:05:05 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981114 ("The Watchman") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.30 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!news1.mpx.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!not-for-mail Jonathan Naylor expounded: : As an aside, how difficult would it be to persuade the current licence : owners of the UNIX source code to release the sources for V7 UNIX ? SCO is selling source licences for $100 US (or maybe gratis if you are a student). Binary distributions are available for no charge. Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient_unix.html -- Stuart Norris norris@mech.eng.usyd.edu.au Mechanical Engineering,University of Sydney,NSW 2006 wk:+(61 2) 9351-2272 http://www.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norris hm:+(61 2) 9326-5276 ###### From: gleason@mwk.com (Lee K. Gleason) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Message-ID: Date: 10 Feb 99 17:29:08 CST References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> Reply-To: gleason at mwk.com Organization: Control-G Consultants Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!mwk!gleason In article <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko writes: > > : Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The > : First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it > : *screamed* along at 300 baud. > > And they each made their own distinct sounds. Let me try and mimic them in print: > > TTY: "ching, ching, ching, chang, ching-ching-ching, chang, chung...." > DW: "verrrt, verrt,....., verrrrrrt, verr,vert,ver, verrrrrt...." > We got so used to the rythm of the sounds the LA36 would make when printing out operator messages, for my first job's 11/70 IAS system, that we could usually tell what they said by ear. Hated the sound of lots of short lines printing out fast - on that system, which used ran a newspaper system called TMS-11, it was the distinctive sound of a crash occurring As well as being a faster comms speed, LA36s didn't require NULL fill on carriage return - this made quite a speed difference as well (we found this out, because we were supplying NULLS for the first two months we had it, since the terminal settings were wrong on the system - when we stoppped sending 'em, the whole printing operation ran perceptibly faster). Now, when the LA120 came along, with its 1200 bps, and boustrophedony... well, those were good times to be alive... Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants gleason@mwk.com ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 10 Feb 1999 20:28:12 GMT Organization: IDT Internet Services Lines: 28 Message-ID: <79sq4s$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> <796oqg$1vt$3@antiochus.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: : In article <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>, : don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote: : >Dennis Ritchie wrote: : >> http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html : >> The consoles are probably Decwriters. : > : >er, they look rather a lot like ASR-33s (looks over shoulder at trusty : >'33 in the corner -- yep, definitely '33s). DECwriter had a more open : >stand, and was flatter with a much less sloped keyboard. : : DECwriters were much later than 71. I can't get at the picture, : but 33s or 35s were ususally attached to those 11s. The keyboards are very different. The Decwriter KBs were similar to what we use today but built in with the printing mechanism. It looks like a wide carriage dot matrix printer with a keyboard on a stand three feet high. The ASR-33(TTY) is narrower, heavier and the keys are actually circular, and more raised. TTYs had an optional stand. Don't believe I ever saw a DW without a stand, as a lot of the guts was in the stand. DW keys are pressed easily, TTY's keys made a distinct "ker-chunk" sound when pressed! Eric : /BAH : Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Eric Chomko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 10 Feb 1999 21:33:21 GMT Organization: IDT (Best News In The World) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <797qov$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36B79AD4.F0E1C89F@tnglwood NNTP-Posting-Host: u3.farm.idt.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961025] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!u3.farm.idt.net!not-for-mail Organization: IDT Internet Services Distribution: Robert Billing wrote: : Tony Duell wrote: : > Nice? It's got that wonderful design feature that ends up burning out the : > carriage feed motor. : Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The : First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it : *screamed* along at 300 baud. And they each made their own distinct sounds. Let me try and mimic them in print: TTY: "ching, ching, ching, chang, ching-ching-ching, chang, chung...." DW: "verrrt, verrt,....., verrrrrrt, verr,vert,ver, verrrrrt...." Eric : This made us blind to most of its major faults, including that b****y : LF solonoid. : -- : I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal : lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ : "Bother," said Pooh, "Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock : phasers on the Heffalump, Piglet, meet me in transporter room three" ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:18:45 -0500 Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services Lines: 43 Message-ID: <79thpj$cq6$1@news.igs.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ttye04.kw.igs.net X-Trace: news.igs.net 918702707 13126 206.248.37.132 (11 Feb 1999 03:11:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@igs.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:11:47 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.191.82.231!rockie.attcanada.net!attcanada!nntp.igs.net!news.igs.net!not-for-mail Funny, we had a thread a few months back about that very subject (boustrophedonic printing) in the Cobol echo. I was mentioning that I woke up in the middle of the night, after coding firmware for a week, realizing that I had started to *read* in the same fashion. The mind does funny things ... Lee K. Gleason wrote in message ... >In article <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko writes: >> >> : Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The >> : First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it >> : *screamed* along at 300 baud. >> >> And they each made their own distinct sounds. Let me try and mimic them in print: >> >> TTY: "ching, ching, ching, chang, ching-ching-ching, chang, chung...." >> DW: "verrrt, verrt,....., verrrrrrt, verr,vert,ver, verrrrrt...." >> > > We got so used to the rythm of the sounds the LA36 would >make when printing out operator messages, for my first job's 11/70 >IAS system, that we could usually tell what they said by ear. Hated >the sound of lots of short lines printing out fast - on that system, >which used ran a newspaper system called TMS-11, it was the distinctive >sound of a crash occurring > > As well as being a faster comms speed, LA36s didn't require NULL fill >on carriage return - this made quite a speed difference as well (we found >this out, because we were supplying NULLS for the first two months we >had it, since the terminal settings were wrong on the system - when we >stoppped sending 'em, the whole printing operation ran perceptibly faster). > > Now, when the LA120 came along, with its 1200 bps, and >well, those were good times to be alive... > >Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR >Control-G Consultants >gleason@mwk.com ###### From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 11 Feb 1999 04:37:48 GMT Organization: Daedalus Consulting Lines: 28 Message-ID: <79tmqs$2um$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7963q7$moa$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> <796oqg$1vt$3@antiochus.ultra.net> <79sq4s$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: toyunix.zl2tnm.gen.nz Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!don In article <79sq4s$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko wrote (in rather more than 80 columns ): >The keyboards are very different. The Decwriter KBs were similar to what >we use today but built in with the printing mechanism. It looks like a >wide carriage dot matrix printer with a keyboard on a stand three feet >high. The ASR-33(TTY) is narrower, heavier and the keys are actually >circular, and more raised. TTYs had an optional stand. Don't believe I >ever saw a DW without a stand, as a lot of the guts was in the stand. DW >keys are pressed easily, TTY's keys made a distinct "ker-chunk" sound >when pressed! The LA30 DECwriter is *narrower* than the ASR33 -- it's only 72 columns like the TTY, and the PSU is (I believe) under the unit whereas the TTY has the PSU out to the right of the keyboard and printer and the reader & punch (which the DECwriter lacks) out to the left. I think you're thinking of the LA36 DECwriter II and/or LA120 DECwriter III. These are 132 columns, and also have their guts underneath. (Actually, I think only the PSU is in the stand on the LA120, whereas the LA36 has most of its logic down there too, simply because it was too big to fit in the top part.) But all DECwriters have a more modern looking keyboards than the TTY, slimmer, square keys on a less angled board. The LA36-style terminals had numeric keypads, whereas the LA30 didn't have that much room. -- Don Stokes, Networking Consultant http://www.daedalus.co.nz +64 25 739 724 ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 11:13:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <79ufum$44s$1@antiochus.ultra.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d10.dial-13.mbo.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 11 Feb 1999 11:46:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.ultranet.com!d10 In article , gleason@mwk.com (Lee K. Gleason) wrote: >In article <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko writes: >> >> : Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The >> : First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it >> : *screamed* along at 300 baud. >> >> And they each made their own distinct sounds. Let me try and mimic them in print: >> >> TTY: "ching, ching, ching, chang, ching-ching-ching, chang, chung...." >> DW: "verrrt, verrt,....., verrrrrrt, verr,vert,ver, verrrrrt...." >> > > We got so used to the rythm of the sounds the LA36 would >make when printing out operator messages, for my first job's 11/70 >IAS system, that we could usually tell what they said by ear. Hated >the sound of lots of short lines printing out fast - on that system, >which used ran a newspaper system called TMS-11, it was the distinctive >sound of a crash occurring Yup. When I was putting the DEC documentation into bits, we used TTY35s. I could always tell when I had made a typo. I could tell when my typists made typos too. Never got the DECwriter sounds memorized since I was off doing other stuff at the time. Eric's ASCII demonstration was very nostalgic. :-) It's really too bad that the sounds of all that gear are gone. One could tell a lot about the health of the system just from the sounds. I visited the last KL10 that DEC had before they chopped it up. I had not realized that those machines had a distinctive smell. Now I'm wondering if slight changes of smell were indicative of the gear working. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:05:34 -0500 Organization: Kettering University (formerly GMI E&MI) - Flint MI Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.kettering.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.metronet.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!24.130.1.14!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!24.131.1.12!denws01.mw.mediaone.net!news.gmi.edu!nova.kettering.edu!lee1089 On 10 Feb 1999, Lee K. Gleason wrote: > In article <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, Eric Chomko writes: > > > > : Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The > > : First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it > > : *screamed* along at 300 baud. > > > > And they each made their own distinct sounds. Let me try and mimic them in print: > > > > TTY: "ching, ching, ching, chang, ching-ching-ching, chang, chung...." > > DW: "verrrt, verrt,....., verrrrrrt, verr,vert,ver, verrrrrt...." > > > > We got so used to the rythm of the sounds the LA36 would > make when printing out operator messages, for my first job's 11/70 > IAS system, that we could usually tell what they said by ear. Hated > the sound of lots of short lines printing out fast - on that system, > which used ran a newspaper system called TMS-11, it was the distinctive > sound of a crash occurring > > As well as being a faster comms speed, LA36s didn't require NULL fill > on carriage return - this made quite a speed difference as well (we found > this out, because we were supplying NULLS for the first two months we > had it, since the terminal settings were wrong on the system - when we > stoppped sending 'em, the whole printing operation ran perceptibly faster). > > Now, when the LA120 came along, with its 1200 bps, and boustrophedony... > well, those were good times to be alive... Of course now I'm paying for those good times by trying to keep all those old LA120s running because administration is too cheap to buy new serial printers. ____________________________________________________________________________ | "A little nonsense now and then, | "If it walks out of the fridge, let Is relished by the wisest men." | it go" -- John Dougherty --W.W. | "If it loves you it will come back." | -- Ian Davis __________________________________|_________________________________________ Theta Xi Kappa Sigma ###### From: gleason@mwk.com (Lee K. Gleason) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Message-ID: Date: 11 Feb 99 16:26:52 CST References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> Reply-To: gleason at mwk.com Organization: Control-G Consultants Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!mwk!gleason In article , writes: > > Of course now I'm paying for those good times by trying to keep all those > old LA120s running because administration is too cheap to buy new serial > printers. > Heck, there are so many of them available in my area that people often just eliminate all the electronics and mechanical bits, throw a piece of plywood on top, and use them as shop tables...they were winding up in the metal recycling places by the hundreds. Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants gleason@mwk.com ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 14 Feb 1999 22:32:23 +0800 Organization: The University of Western Australia Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <7933nq$mb6$1@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <7951lv$7st$1@remarQ.com> <36B5E69E.47D410FC@trailing-edge.com> <797ksm$q4r$1@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz> <79jjod$n9t@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail writes: > Don Stokes wrote: > : Tim Shoppa wrote: > : >The larger massbus drives came in the late 70's and early/mid 80's. > > [...] > : >and the RP07 is 516 Megabytes. (The introduction of the RP07 in 512 Mb. > : >1980 or so caused considerable rework to be done on the PDP-11 OS's > : >to allow for support for such a large device.) > > : The RP07 wasn't supported on the 11s. (That's not to say it doesn't > : work -- it does.) The Files-11 ODS1 limitation of 512MB didn't have to > : have anything done about it until the 600 MB RA82 came out circa '85 or > : so. > > The RSX-11M-Plus V4.0 I/O Drivers Reference manual (copyright 1979-1987, > chapter 4) lists the RP07 in a table of Standard Disk Devices, along with > a text description. No indication that it's not supported. The disk > driver is supplied, and "all the disks in this chapter are accessed in > essentially the same manner". So that would mean that sometime between > 1980 and 1987 it became officially supported? (I suppose a lot can change > in 7 years.) The RP07s worked fine. But, there was no diags or errorlog support for them. They where just short of the size limit, so that didnt bite either. Castor/Pollux had several RP07s, and I've run them on my 70. ~paul ###### From: hawk@eyry.econ.iastate.edu (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: 16 Feb 1999 11:08:20 -0600 Organization: House of Hawkins Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7ac8m4$825$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <79ufum$44s$1@antiochus.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eyry.econ.iastate.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail In article <79ufum$44s$1@antiochus.ultra.net>, wrote: >I visited the last KL10 that DEC had before they chopped it up. >I had not realized that those machines had a distinctive smell. >Now I'm wondering if slight changes of smell were indicative of >the gear working. One of the dubious achievements of my childhood is to have encountered enought burning electrical parts (well, running a diode across the socket of a dying 35Z5 to assist it seemed like a good idea at the time . . .) to tell them apart by smell . . . -- These opinions will not be those of ISU until it pays my retainer. ###### From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:18:30 +1200 Organization: University of Auckland Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <79ufum$44s$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7ac8m4$825$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p.kerr.mus.auckland.ac.nz X-Trace: scream.auckland.ac.nz 919225036 11222 130.216.90.132 (17 Feb 1999 04:17:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@auckland.ac.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 1999 04:17:16 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!195.252.142.5.MISMATCH!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!203.97.37.7!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news!news.iprolink.co.nz!auckland.ac.nz!p.kerr (Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) wrote: >One of the dubious achievements of my childhood is to have encountered >enought burning electrical parts (well, running a diode across the >socket of a dying 35Z5 to assist it seemed like a good idea at >the time . . .) to tell them apart by smell . . . > Ah those smells, thin black, thick black, choking white, and of course rich brown ... -- Peter Kerr bodger School of Music chandler University of Auckland New Zealand neo-Luddite ###### From: mforsyth@bigpond.com (Mark Forsyth) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <79ufum$44s$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7ac8m4$825$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> Reply-To: mforsyth@bigpond.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:46:24 +1059 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.40.56.22 X-Trace: newsfeeds.bigpond.com 919271046 203.40.56.22 (Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:04:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:04:06 EST Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!newsfeeds.bigpond.com!not-for-mail On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:18:30 +1200, Peter Kerr wrote: >(Richard E. Hawkins Esq.) wrote: > >>One of the dubious achievements of my childhood is to have encountered >>enought burning electrical parts (well, running a diode across the >>socket of a dying 35Z5 to assist it seemed like a good idea at >>the time . . .) to tell them apart by smell . . . >> > >Ah those smells, thin black, thick black, choking white, and of course >rich brown ... And then of course there's always that sinking feeling an Ops. mangler gets when s/he gets a slight whiff of the dreaded EXPENSIVE BROWN..AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH A bad night, 35 disk packs ( Honeywell 278 ) 7 ( H278 ) spindles and 70 heads and nowhere near enough spares in the country. Mark F... > >-- >Peter Kerr bodger >School of Music chandler >University of Auckland New Zealand neo-Luddite ###### From: Kevin Handy Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:01:42 -0700 Organization: Software Solutions, Inc Lines: 22 Message-ID: <36CC3966.43939767@srv.net> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <36B51645.1006@bell-labs.com> <36B67C39.1C21@bell-labs.com> <797qov$sr@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> <36B79AD4.F0E1C89F@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.7.221.47 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 919352967 HLLAGTWDSDD2FC 07C usenet80.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail Robert Billing wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Nice? It's got that wonderful design feature that ends up burning out the > > carriage feed motor. > > Basically, anyone who remembers the Awsome day of the Coming Of The > First DecWriter, will remember that, after years of 110 baud TTYs, it > *screamed* along at 300 baud. > > This made us blind to most of its major faults, including that b****y > LF solonoid. Then (shortly before the LA120 came out) was the DataProducts(?) upgrade for the LA36 that replaced the logic boards, added a heat sink to the print head, and gave a large boost in speed (from 300 to 1200?), but would wear out print heads fairly quickly. Only saw one, but was amazed at how fast it went at the time. ###### From: John Holden Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: sizeof(old_minis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:25:49 +1100 Organization: Unoversity of Sydney, Australia Lines: 7 Message-ID: <36CB41ED.167E@psych.usyd.edu.au> References: <8R5t2.123$iO5.7211@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <79stv1$9u7@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <79ufum$44s$1@antiochus.ultra.net> <7ac8m4$825$1@eyry.econ.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: psychalpha.psych.usyd.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 919290349 3160 129.78.83.6 (17 Feb 1999 22:25:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 1999 22:25:49 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!not-for-mail > > Ah those smells, thin black, thick black, choking white, and of course > rich brown ... > Then there is the theory that computer chips are made with smoke. They only stop working if the smoke leaks out ;-)