From: lucvdv@null.net (Luc Van der Veken) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Are we in usenet or netnews? Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:09 GMT Organization: . Lines: 14 Message-ID: <36accf68.5142053@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool02b-194-7-146-93.uunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!krypton.inbe.net!INbe.net!not-for-mail I got into a little discussion in another newsgroup, about the meaning of the word netnews - I thought this would be the place to get more info about where & how the names originated: He: usenet is only the big 7, netnews is all groups (which would imply that a.f.c is part of netnews, but not of usenet) Me, and someone else, and the jargon file (for 1/2) too: usenet is the newsgroups, netnews is the *content* of usenet. Who is [more] right? Does anyone remember who actually invented the words? ###### From: TheCentralScrutinizer.111@pobox.com () Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Are we in usenet or netnews? Date: 22 Jan 1999 19:54:32 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <36accf68.5142053@news.uunet.be> Reply-To: TheCentralScrutinizer.112@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: edison.chisp.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!TheCentralScrutinizer.111 On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:09 GMT, Luc Van der Veken wrote: >I got into a little discussion in another newsgroup, about the >meaning of the word netnews - I thought this would be the place >to get more info about where & how the names originated: > >He: usenet is only the big 7, netnews is all groups (which would > imply that a.f.c is part of netnews, but not of usenet) > >Me, and someone else, and the jargon file (for 1/2) too: > usenet is the newsgroups, netnews is the *content* of > usenet. > USENET is the proper name. Netnews is just someone's name for USENET. ###### From: mww@microfocus.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Are we in usenet or netnews? Date: 23 Jan 1999 00:56:09 GMT Organization: Micro Focus Inc. Lines: 92 Message-ID: <78b6n9$e3q@news3.newsguy.com> References: <36accf68.5142053@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-539.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@raederle.microfocus.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww In article , TheCentralScrutinizer.111@pobox.com () writes: > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:09 GMT, Luc Van der Veken wrote: > >I got into a little discussion in another newsgroup, about the > >meaning of the word netnews - I thought this would be the place > >to get more info about where & how the names originated: > > > >He: usenet is only the big 7, netnews is all groups (which would > > imply that a.f.c is part of netnews, but not of usenet) > > > >Me, and someone else, and the jargon file (for 1/2) too: > > usenet is the newsgroups, netnews is the *content* of > > usenet. > > USENET is the proper name. Netnews is just someone's name for USENET. It's highly debatable whether "USENET" (or the equally valid "Usenet") can be called "proper". After The Great Renaming (1986-1987), Usenet officially included only the Big 7: comp, misc, news, rec, sci, soc, and talk. When the alt hierarchy was launched by Brian Reid, John Gilmore, and Gordon Moffett, it arguably was not part of Usenet since it was added without consent of the Backbone Cabal. The same and more goes for other hierarchies added since. Usenet / netnews changed dramatically as UUCP was displaced by NNTP, becoming much less centralized, administered, and hierarchical. Whether *anything* about it ought to be called "proper" is unclear. There just aren't any authorities any more. See eg. . Here's a bit from the "What is Usenet?" article edited by Gene Spafford that bears on the narrow and broad definitions of Usenet: There is often confusion about the precise set of newsgroups that constitute Usenet; one commonly accepted definition is that it consists of newsgroups listed in the periodic "List of Active Newsgroups" postings which appear regularly in news.lists.misc and other newsgroups. A broader definition of Usenet would include the newsgroups listed in the article "Alternative Newsgroup Hierarchies" (frequently posted to news.lists.misc). An even broader definition includes even newsgroups that are restricted to specific geographic regions or organizations. See . Similarly, the Greg Woods / Gene Spafford / David Lawrence group- creation guide, which explicitly applies only to the Big 8 (the Big 7 plus humanities), refers to "the 'standard' Usenet newsgroup hierarchy" but in the same paragraph notes that this is only "the most widely-distributed areas of the Usenet hierarchy". Clearly, slipping between the narrow and wide definitions is commonplace even among the experts. In any case, "Usenet" is as much "just someone's name" as "netnews" is. "Netnews" enjoys wide usage among 'net old-timers (see eg. notes from Mark Horton and Steve Bellovin at ). The _NHD_ and Jargon File might be somewhat authoritive on the question, but they don't take any concrete position on it. Luc correctly notes their second definition of netnews ("the content of USENET"), but that doesn't prohibit another meaning of netnews as equivalent to the broad usage of "Usenet". There are good reasons for seeing only the Big 7 as comprising Usenet; they're the ones that obey the Usenet voting policies, for example. And since netnews travels almost exclusively by NNTP these days, and NNTP stands for "Network News Transport Protocol" (RFC 997), the name "netnews" (a contraction of "network news", obviously, though I believe it antedates NNTP) is perfectly reasonable. The name's been controversial almost from the beginning anyway. There was a debate over renaming the thing (to "Arachnet") in 1982. It's an interesting question, though. I tend to use Usenet in the narrow sense - a habit I adopted after reading some proscription against the wide sense somewhere, years ago. Now I'm curious where that was. Michael Wojcik mww@microfocus.com AAI Development, Micro Focus Department of English, Miami University Even though there may be some misguided critics of what we're trying to do, I think we're on the wrong path. -- Reagan ###### From: lars@cableinet.co.uk (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Are we in usenet or netnews? Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:12:59 +0100 Organization: Federation of Independent Wizards Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1dm2am2.nsdp691odjybkN@usr280-edi.cableinet.co.uk> References: <36accf68.5142053@news.uunet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr280-edi.cableinet.co.uk X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 917096541 8502 194.117.152.54 (23 Jan 1999 13:02:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 1999 13:02:21 GMT User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!btnet-peer!btnet!demeter.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!lars Luc Van der Veken wrote: > I got into a little discussion in another newsgroup, about the > meaning of the word netnews - I thought this would be the place > to get more info about where & how the names originated: > > He: usenet is only the big 7, netnews is all groups (which would > imply that a.f.c is part of netnews, but not of usenet) > > Me, and someone else, and the jargon file (for 1/2) too: > usenet is the newsgroups, netnews is the *content* of > usenet. > > Who is [more] right? > Does anyone remember who actually invented the words? I know 'Usenet' as the name for the whole shebang, and 'netnews' as name for the protocol and distribution system - like in 'I discussed it on Usenet' vs. 'I send the messages with netnews'. -- Lars Duening; lars@cableinet.co.uk