Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: TECO and WordStar X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:59:09 GMT Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-a.ais.net!ais.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Would you believe me if I told you WordStar started out life as a simplified version of TECO? MicroPro's pre-WordStar product was called Wordmaster. It was billed as an enhanced version of the standard CP/M editor, ED. But from the description of it in the May, 1979 issue of Creative Computing, it's pretty clear that most of the enhancements were attempts to make ED more like TECO. For example, it stored text in Q registers and used Y to read in files. In addition to these "command mode" features, it also had a "video mode" that could be entered with the V command. Video mode used the full screen but had a command set completely unrelated to the one from command mode, similar to the relationship between Unix's vi and ed. The followup release, Word-Star (the hyphen was later dropped), added built-in printer formatting but dropped command mode, leaving only video mode. eric ###### From: Duane Hentrich Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:03:06 -0800 Organization: DHL Systems, Inc. Lines: 85 Message-ID: <3671EAFA.BCB216DB@systems.dhl.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.41.203.136 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; U; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/778) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.shore.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!not-for-mail Eric Fischer wrote: > > Would you believe me if I told you WordStar started out life as a > simplified version of TECO? Well, somewhat. I just look through some old TECO docs and its command set really doesn't look much like what I remember from ed/ned/wordmaster/wordstar. But it was a while back. Let me tell you what I remember about the birth of WordStar. Maybe we can piece it all together. I worked at IMSAI when Rob Barnaby (Hi, Rob) started working on his editor. Rob was guru of system software, improving the stock C/PM stuff. He added file buffering so you could edit a file larger than memory and other useful and needed functions. This was all pretty standard stuff. Now, as I recall, C/PM's _ed_ was a stripped down version of a line editor whose commands are similar to other editors of the time. I seem to recall there was a programming book that used an editor a similar command set as an example. Nothing new or extaordinary. He dearly hated _ed_, but I think it was more that he really liked having the resources of something like a TOPS-20 machine and, of course, TECO. He was, at one time, a system programmer for TOPS-20 and he showed me what a REAL _list_ program could do by showing me the thick manual for the 20's _list_ command, which had his name on it. The man could code. Anyway, this was just at the time when IMSAI started shipping their video board. Rob took one of those video boards and since he felt the video card was broken, (in reverse video the rectangular character region would switch from black to white but the border would stay black) he hacked the hardware and we all liked it so much it became an official engineering change. Now he had a video board and a line editor. Not a match, so he wrote an editor which had C/PM _ed_'s command set and added a video mode. This was also about the time that IMSAI was trying to brand a version of C/PM which they called IMDOS. So just to be sure, I believe the _ed_ for IMDOS was rewritten from the ground up so IMSAI could control the code. He added a visual mode with command sequences he liked. I'm sure that he used some stuff from TECO, but one of his best contributions was the visual mode commands. More on that later. The code was improved on a regular basis but it wasn't clear whether it was a company project or Rob's own baby. The ownership of the code changed hands at some point and you'll have to talk to Bill Millard, founder of IMSAI, and Seymour Rubenstein, one time Marketing Manager of IMSAI and founder of MicroPro to get the straight poop. At some point the editor change from _ed_ to _ned_. I have a couple of 8" floppies with a copy of _ned's_ source. I haven't put in in a drive for 10-15 years. Nice momento tho. Well, Rob left IMSAI and helped found MicroPro with Seymour and others. Bill Millard was busy with his "Computerland" ne' "Computer Shack" (guess what happened there ;^). IMSAI sorta wound down and went the way of all flesh and I lost touch with most of the players. Others from IMSAI worked for MicroPro, most notable Joe Killian, designer of the IMSAI cpu board and owner of the ranch next to Skywalker Ranch in Marin, CA (yes, that skywalker) and Bruce Van Natta, a for real "wild and crazy" guy (he used duck tape to keep the hood 'attached' to his Honda 600 car until it died a natural death). Getting back to WordStar, if you look the command set carefully you'll notice that the commands are clustered and arranged so that a person with short fingers could keep their fingers on the home row, push control with one of your pinkies and issue most of the useful commands. The visual mode commands were designed to be simple and easy to use rather than be mnemonic. Cursor movement, for example is, IIRC, a diamond group of keys on the left side of the keyboard. Move right by hitting the right key in the diamond, move down by hitting the lower one. Rob told me he never really liked any screen editor's command set. So he built his own. Q registers and other stuff may well have been lifted from TECO. But a lot of WordStar is pure Barnaby. His on screen context sensitive help (menus) were, to my mind, a great addition to a great editor. Boy, am I rambling. Time for a beer. Duane -- Hypertext isn't what it's marked up to be. | dhentric@systems.dhl.com ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:55:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-017.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 913433629 4019 194.247.41.21 (12 Dec 1998 03:33:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1998 03:33:49 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i586)) Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail Eric Fischer wrote: > Would you believe me if I told you WordStar started out life as a > simplified version of TECO? > MicroPro's pre-WordStar product was called Wordmaster. It was billed > as an enhanced version of the standard CP/M editor, ED. But from the > description of it in the May, 1979 issue of Creative Computing, it's > pretty clear that most of the enhancements were attempts to make ED > more like TECO. For example, it stored text in Q registers and used Y > to read in files. > In addition to these "command mode" features, it also had a "video > mode" that could be entered with the V command. Video mode used the > full screen but had a command set completely unrelated to the one from > command mode, similar to the relationship between Unix's vi and ed. The > followup release, Word-Star (the hyphen was later dropped), added built-in > printer formatting but dropped command mode, leaving only video mode. Talking of microcomputer TECOs, Research Machines, who used to make lovely Z80 systems aimed mainly at the education market in the UK (I think they now do expensive PCs aimed at the same market!), used to ship a cut-down Teco called TXED with their CP/M systems. On their "high resolution" (80-column :)) board, with their lovely keyboard, it was a real pleasure to write with. If I had one I'd probably still use it for banging out plain ASCII in preference to all the other machines here... Maybe I just thought slowly back in the early/mid 80s but a CP/M crate chugging along at 4MHz seemed quicker than this P233... pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk) ``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <3671EAFA.BCB216DB@systems.dhl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:33:45 GMT Lines: 54 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Duane Hentrich wrote: > > Would you believe me if I told you WordStar started out life as a > > simplified version of TECO? > > Well, somewhat. I just look through some old TECO docs and its > command set really doesn't look much like what I remember from > ed/ned/wordmaster/wordstar. But it was a while back. Let me tell you > what I remember about the birth of WordStar. Maybe we can piece it > all together. Thanks for posting the story behind Wordmaster and WordStar. What I meant by the TECO reference was that most of the commands available in Wordmaster's command mode are also TECO commands (C, D, L, K, T, I, F, N, R). Others (Y and the Q commands) aren't exactly the same as in TECO but are clearly related. The video mode is completely different, with no clear connection to either TECO or CP/M ed, but I was also surprised to see how it changed between Wordmaster and WordStar. If anyone else is curious, here's the list from the Wordmaster article, with the equivalent WordStar keys added for comparison: Wordmaster WordStar Cursor left character ^H ^S Cursor right character ^L ^D Cursor down line ^J ^X Cursor up line ^K ^E Cursor left word ^A ^A Cursor right word ^D ^F Cursor right tab stop ^Z Cursor beginning/end of line ^B ^QS/^QD Cursor top/bottom of screen ^^ ^QE/^QX Scroll down one line ^E ^W Scroll up one line ^X ^Z Scroll down one screen ^C ^C Scroll up on screen ^R ^R Insertion on/off ^F ^V Delete character left Del Del Delete character right ^G ^G Delete word left ^\ Delete word right ^O ^T Delete line left ^U ^QDel Delete line right ^P ^QY Delete entire line ^Y ^Y Tab ^I ^I Insert CR ^N ^N Insert CR or go to next line CR CR Repeat four times ^W Put in file even if ctrl ^] IMSAI VIO control ^V Leave video mode Esc eric ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:09:33 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <75b6rd$hpt$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Eric Fischer (eric@fudge.uchicago.edu) wrote -- > The video mode is completely different, with no clear connection to > either TECO or CP/M ed, but I was also surprised to see how it changed > between Wordmaster and WordStar. If anyone else is curious, here's > the list from the Wordmaster article, with the equivalent WordStar > keys added for comparison: > > Wordmaster WordStar > Cursor left character ^H ^S . . . > Cursor beginning/end of line ^B ^QS/^QD > Cursor top/bottom of screen ^^ ^QE/^QX . . . Hiya, Eric. I owe ya one -- haven't forgotten. Many thanks to you and Duane for the material on Rob Barnaby and WordStar. Those Wordmaster keystrokes, like vi and Emacs keystrokes, bring one thing to mind: software handshaking. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:21:57 GMT Message-ID: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: man-160.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: roch.zetnet.co.uk 914012517 19936 194.247.40.203 (18 Dec 1998 20:21:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:21:57 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-12-16 eric@fudge.uchicago.edu(EricFischer) said: :Cursor left character ^H :Cursor right character ^L :Cursor down line ^J :Cursor up line ^K These four are so vi... :Repeat four times ^W ..but this is emacs (could it also be TECO?). The others I didn't spot. -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: dpeschel@u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:52:48 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 19 Message-ID: <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: saul9.u.washington.edu X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 914014368 36576 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: dpeschel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dpeschel In article <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >On 1998-12-16 eric@fudge.uchicago.edu(EricFischer) said: > :Cursor left character ^H > :Cursor right character ^L > :Cursor down line ^J > :Cursor up line ^K > >These four are so vi... They're also very Lear-Siegler ADM-3A (a terminal) -- the arrow keys on that model send those control sequences, and vi was designed originally to work with the ADM I think. In fact, the arrow symbols may be on the front of the h j k l keys -- I'm not sure. But it would be an obvious step (to a computer programmer, anyway) to say, "Why use the Control key at all? Just hit the letter keys." -- Derek ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:11:53 GMT Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail In article <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: > :Cursor left character ^H > :Cursor right character ^L > :Cursor down line ^J > :Cursor up line ^K > > These four are so vi... But it doesn't necessarily mean vi was involved, because those codes are also what the arrow keys on Televideo 925 and Lear-Siegler ADM3A terminals send. Tangentially, there was actually a period in 1979 where h, j, k, and l were taken out of the standard vi key map and users were expected to use their arrow keys instead! They were put back in in version 2.8. I don't know whether it was by popular demand or just because vi wasn't able to handle arrow keys that send multi-character sequences (like the VT100) until version 3. eric ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: eric@fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar X-Nntp-Posting-Host: fudge.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test51 (15 Jan 97) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:00:06 GMT Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail D. Peschel wrote: > In fact, the arrow symbols may be on the front of the h j k l keys -- I'm > not sure. But it would be an obvious step (to a computer programmer, > anyway) to say, "Why use the Control key at all? Just hit the letter keys." They're on the tops of the keys, actually. The ADM-3A doesn't actually have arrow keys, just normal keys with arrows on them. Apparently it's not that high a psychological barrier, because I remember seeing some Apple II programs that used "N" as the up-arrow key (the II and II plus only had left and right arrows) just because shift-N would get you the "^" symbol. There were also Timex-Sinclair 1000 games that would use four of the digits for directional motion because those keys doubled as arrows. eric ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 19 Dec 1998 12:09:46 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 80 Message-ID: <75g52a$4g2$1@news.seed.net.tw> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Eric Fischer (eric@fudge.uchicago.edu) wrote -- > They're on the tops of the keys, actually. The ADM-3A doesn't > actually have arrow keys, just normal keys with arrows on them. Yup -- this was discussed on comp.editors not long ago. I'll append some excerpts from the exchange. > Apparently it's not that high a psychological barrier, because > I remember seeing some Apple II programs that used "N" as the > up-arrow key (the II and II plus only had left and right arrows) > just because shift-N would get you the "^" symbol. There were > also Timex-Sinclair 1000 games that would use four of the digits > for directional motion because those keys doubled as arrows. From about 1985 to 1994 I wondered why no one (no developer of mass-market software that I know of, at least) used ^U, ^J, ^K, and ^N as a cursor diamond the way WordStar uses (present tense, natch ;-) ^E, ^S, ^D, and ^X. Then I got on the Net and learned how Microsoft operates, and it all became clear. Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_) Apologies for the anti-spam devices and non-threading newsreader. (A manually entered "References" field sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - URL: news:6rhqe2$huf$1@news.wintek.com Subj: Re: Why ``hjkl'' From: "Joe Greer" Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:37:52 -0500 Org: Wintek Corporation, Internet Services Nwsg: comp.editors Refs: <6rgk55$kmh$1@renpen.nelson.org> I have seen various responses to your question, but the real reason is that in the early days of unix, almost everyone used adm3 terminals and the arrow keys on those terminals were the hjkl keys. That is the reason *I* think those keys were chosen. joe - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - URL: news:35DC726C.92A44B02@yahoo.com Subj: Re: Why ``hjkl'' From: Brian Masinick Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:01:00 -0400 Org: Independent Software Consultant Nwsg: comp.editors Refs: <6rgk55$kmh$1@renpen.nelson.org> <6rhqe2$huf$1@news.wintek.com> Joe, As I recall, the ADM terminals functioned exactly as you described. Back in those days, there were AT&T teletype terminals, ADM, DEC VT series terminals, Hazeltine, and a few others. If I recall the history, the hjkl etchings were mentioned in some document, perhaps one of the early vi tutorials. I'll bet Bill Joy had an ADM terminal back in the Berkeley school days! ;-) -- Brian W. Masinick mailto:masinick@yahoo.com Phone: Work: (603) 791-6585 Home: (603) 227-9124 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - URL: news:slrn6tp09p.j7q.bem@thorin.cmc.net Subj: Re: Why ``hjkl'' From: bem@news.cmc.net (brian moore) Date: 20 Aug 1998 20:03:57 GMT Org: Chambers Multimedia Connection Nwsg: comp.editors Refs: <6rgk55$kmh$1@renpen.nelson.org> <6rhqe2$huf$1@news.wintek.com> <35DC726C.92A44B02@yahoo.com> > I'll bet Bill Joy had an ADM terminal back in the Berkeley school days! ;-) Actually, he did: most of Evans Hall was built with ADM3's and 3A's. With the occasional Hazeltine 1500 and 2000. -- Brian Moore Kill A Spammer For Jesus Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker, Usenet Vandal - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ###### From: Kin Hoong CHUNG Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 22 Dec 1998 02:29:34 GMT Organization: University of New South Wales Lines: 21 Message-ID: <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.maths.unsw.edu.au User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!194.165.93.117.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed-east.supernews.com!supernews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uow.edu.au!news.usyd.edu.au!unsw.edu.au!not-for-mail D. Peschel wrote: : In article <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: :>On 1998-12-16 eric@fudge.uchicago.edu(EricFischer) said: :> :Cursor left character ^H :> :Cursor right character ^L :> :Cursor down line ^J :> :Cursor up line ^K :> :>These four are so vi... : They're also very Lear-Siegler ADM-3A (a terminal) -- the arrow keys on that : model send those control sequences, and vi was designed originally to work : with the ADM I think. Also, is it just a coincidence that ^H is the ASCII backspace character and ^J is the ASCII newline character? Cheers, Kin Hoong ###### From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:23:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 914343843 129.85.24.56 (Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:24:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:24:03 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail On 22 Dec 1998 02:29:34 GMT, Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: >D. Peschel wrote: >: In article <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >:>On 1998-12-16 eric@fudge.uchicago.edu(EricFischer) said: > >:> :Cursor left character ^H >:> :Cursor right character ^L >:> :Cursor down line ^J >:> :Cursor up line ^K >:> >:>These four are so vi... > >: They're also very Lear-Siegler ADM-3A (a terminal) -- the arrow keys on that >: model send those control sequences, and vi was designed originally to work >: with the ADM I think. > >Also, is it just a coincidence that ^H is the ASCII backspace character >and ^J is the ASCII newline character? Probably is - otherwise ^L would've been "page down" command. [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:05:55 GMT Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 35 Message-ID: <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.34 X-Trace: 914360171 A01OARAUVD422CCD1C usenet54.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.corridex.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) wrote: >On 22 Dec 1998 02:29:34 GMT, Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: > >>D. Peschel wrote: >>: In article <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >>:>On 1998-12-16 eric@fudge.uchicago.edu(EricFischer) said: >> >>:> :Cursor left character ^H >>:> :Cursor right character ^L >>:> :Cursor down line ^J >>:> :Cursor up line ^K >>:> >>:>These four are so vi... >> >>: They're also very Lear-Siegler ADM-3A (a terminal) -- the arrow keys on that >>: model send those control sequences, and vi was designed originally to work >>: with the ADM I think. >> >>Also, is it just a coincidence that ^H is the ASCII backspace character >>and ^J is the ASCII newline character? > >Probably is - otherwise ^L would've been "page down" command. Which it is. On many printers that I have used, causes a page feed. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Organization: Rockefeller University Hospital (GCRC), New York Message-ID: <36881c31.346462603@Rockyd> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:27:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.24.56 X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 914365662 129.85.24.56 (Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:27:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:27:42 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!not-for-mail On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:05:55 GMT, genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) wrote: > >>On 22 Dec 1998 02:29:34 GMT, Kin Hoong CHUNG wrote: >> >>>D. Peschel wrote: >>>: In article <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk>, wrote: >>>:>On 1998-12-16 eric@fudge.uchicago.edu(EricFischer) said: >>> >>>:> :Cursor left character ^H >>>:> :Cursor right character ^L >>>:> :Cursor down line ^J >>>:> :Cursor up line ^K >>>:> >>>:>These four are so vi... >>> >>>: They're also very Lear-Siegler ADM-3A (a terminal) -- the arrow keys on that >>>: model send those control sequences, and vi was designed originally to work >>>: with the ADM I think. >>> >>>Also, is it just a coincidence that ^H is the ASCII backspace character >>>and ^J is the ASCII newline character? >> >>Probably is - otherwise ^L would've been "page down" command. > > Which it is. On many printers that I have used, causes >a page feed. Hey, Gene, that's what _I_ said! But it wasn't "page down" command in WordStar, which prompted my reply that ^H (backspace) being "cursor left" and ^J (Line Feed) being "cursor down" are just a coincidence. [ When replying, remove *'s from address ] Alexandre Pechtchanski, Systems Manager, RUH, NY ###### From: TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:45:02 GMT Organization: Nope, none Lines: 11 Message-ID: <368863d1.5311412@news.spacebbs.com> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> Reply-To: TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.204.228.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 914777095 ON.7SG/MSE434CFCCC usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!remarQ73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:05:55 GMT, genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) wrote: [large snippage] >>Probably is - otherwise ^L would've been "page down" command. > > Which it is. On many printers that I have used, causes >a page feed. Uh, Gene, in WordStar ^C is page down. - Tony ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 28 Dec 1998 05:15:12 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <767450$dfh$1@news.seed.net.tw> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> <368863d1.5311412@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Tony Lima (TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com) posted -- > On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:05:55 GMT, genew@vip.net (Gene > Wirchenko) wrote: > >> alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) wrote: > [large snippage] >>> Probably is - otherwise ^L would've been "page down" command. >> >> Which it is. On many printers that I have used, causes >> a page feed. > > Uh, Gene, in WordStar ^C is page down. - Tony Yup, ^C *as a keyboard command* is page down. Inserted into a file, it is a printer pause (at least it was in daisywheel days). ^L *as a keyboard command* is "repeat last search or search-and-replace operation" ("l" for "last"); inserted into a file, it is... drum roll, please... exactly what ASCII says it should be, a form feed. Dan Starchalski ###### From: TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 04:52:42 GMT Organization: Nope, none Lines: 26 Message-ID: <36918b79.43276835@news.spacebbs.com> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> <368863d1.5311412@news.spacebbs.com> <767450$dfh$1@news.seed.net.tw> Reply-To: TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.204.228.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 915252927 ON.7SG/MSE434CFCCC usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail On 28 Dec 1998 05:15:12 GMT, Dan Strychalski wrote: >Tony Lima (TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com) posted -- > >> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:05:55 GMT, genew@vip.net (Gene >> Wirchenko) wrote: >> >>> alex*@*rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Alexandre Pechtchanski) wrote: >> [large snippage] >>>> Probably is - otherwise ^L would've been "page down" command. >>> >>> Which it is. On many printers that I have used, causes >>> a page feed. >> >> Uh, Gene, in WordStar ^C is page down. - Tony > >Yup, ^C *as a keyboard command* is page down. Inserted into a file, it >is a printer pause (at least it was in daisywheel days). ^L *as a >keyboard command* is "repeat last search or search-and-replace >operation" ("l" for "last"); inserted into a file, it is... drum roll, >please... exactly what ASCII says it should be, a form feed. Actually, the one that always annoyed me most was Ctrl-S which (of course) means "stop" in most operating systems. - Tony ###### From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 19:59:37 GMT Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 26 Message-ID: <368dca66.39745688@news.vip.net> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> <368863d1.5311412@news.spacebbs.com> <767450$dfh$1@news.seed.net.tw> <36918b79.43276835@news.spacebbs.com> Reply-To: genew@vip.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.212.14 X-Trace: 915306978 A01OARAUVD4E CCD1C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com (Tony Lima) wrote: >On 28 Dec 1998 05:15:12 GMT, Dan Strychalski > wrote: [snip] >>Yup, ^C *as a keyboard command* is page down. Inserted into a file, it >>is a printer pause (at least it was in daisywheel days). ^L *as a >>keyboard command* is "repeat last search or search-and-replace >>operation" ("l" for "last"); inserted into a file, it is... drum roll, >>please... exactly what ASCII says it should be, a form feed. > >Actually, the one that always annoyed me most was Ctrl-S >which (of course) means "stop" in most operating systems. - Suspend output, no? ^C was terminate with extreme prejudice. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Dan Strychalski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: TECO and WordStar Date: 3 Jan 1999 12:12:50 GMT Organization: Cameo Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <76nms2$ier$1@news.seed.net.tw> References: <75edh5$jf0$1@roch.zetnet.co.uk> <75efb0$13n0$1@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <75n06e$pf3$2@mirv.unsw.edu.au> <3681c740.324714726@Rockyd> <367fe964.6487542@news.vip.net> <368863d1.5311412@news.spacebbs.com> <767450$dfh$1@news.seed.net.tw> <36918b79.43276835@news.spacebbs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.72.104.4 Originator: dski@ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!spring.edu.tw!feeder.seed.net.tw!news.seed.net.tw!!dski Responding to me, Tony Lima (TonyLima@ms.spacebbs.com) posted -- >> Yup, ^C *as a keyboard command* is page down. Inserted into a file, it >> is a printer pause (at least it was in daisywheel days). ^L *as a >> keyboard command* is "repeat last search or search-and-replace >> operation" ("l" for "last"); inserted into a file, it is... drum roll, >> please... exactly what ASCII says it should be, a form feed. > > Actually, the one that always annoyed me most was Ctrl-S > which (of course) means "stop" in most operating systems. Well, "pause" or "suspend," as Gene Wirchenko points out. You need such a function in a command interpreter that provides little or no control over scrolling and cursor movement. You don't need it in a word processor or full-screen editor. So you do something else with the keystroke. Besides, WordStar was designed for people who spent very little time at a command line. Also, Control-S for "suspend," while common, is not carved in stone; the code is a freely assignable device control in ASCII. WordStar doesn't (or didn't, until version 7.0) mess with the assignments of keystrokes whose codes have editing-related functions in ASCII: Control-H for Backspace (God's gift to keyboarders), Control-I for Tab, and Control-M for Return (this last one became "macro" in 7.0; I sure fixed that fast in my copy...). NO other big-name mass-market MS/PC DOS word processor remained true to those assignments, as far as I know. (Of course, on the systems WordStar was originally written for, when 09h was received from the keyboard, there was no way to tell whether it was Control-I or [assuming the system had it] Tab that had been pressed.) Dan Strychalski dski at cameonet, cameo, com, tw (no _x_)