[from an long thread I was not interested in] ###### From: Andy Glew Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:03:51 -0600 Organization: U Wisc CS (& Intel) Lines: 12 Message-ID: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> References: <36534035.0@news.victoria.tc.ca> <737fdf$ebb@jamesa.cstone.net> <36576A68.6DD8@ibm.net> <73ca22$3r010@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <73dtuq$62q$1@galileo.thp.univie.ac.at> <365B80CF.2843@ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: helga.cs.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!uwvax!news > Just not to the people who did it. Who made more off the transistor, > Bell Labs or Intel? Or Fujitsu/Hitachi/Sony for that matter? Umm.... if I have my dates correct, Intel wasn't even founded (1968) until the AT&T patent on the bipolar transistor (1948) had expired. Not to mention, of course, that Intel didn't use AT&T's bipolar transistors much, but quickly became a MOS transistor house. And the MOS transistor was invented by Lilienfeld in 1925. ###### From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Date: 26 Nov 1998 20:46:12 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: man-206.dialup.zetnet.co.uk X-Trace: irk.zetnet.co.uk 912113172 21831 194.247.43.7 (26 Nov 1998 20:46:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1998 20:46:12 GMT X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08X Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail On 1998-11-25 glew@cs.wisc.edu said: :Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin :> Just not to the people who did it. Who made more off the :>transistor, Bell Labs or Intel? Or Fujitsu/Hitachi/Sony for that :matter? :Umm.... if I have my dates correct, Intel wasn't even founded :(1968) until the AT&T patent on the bipolar transistor (1948) :had expired. :Not to mention, of course, that Intel didn't use AT&T's bipolar :transistors much, but quickly became a MOS transistor house. And :the MOS transistor was invented by Lilienfeld in 1925. Hang on... Just about everything I've read says that "the transistor was invented in 1948 at Bell Labs by Bardeen, Brattan and the fascist". What's the story here? How did the transistor that we'd all end up using for logic anyway come to be invented 23 years before anybody took any notice of it? -- Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing ###### From: Bernd Paysan Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:24:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 32 Message-ID: <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.139.17.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 27 09:24:25 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4c) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x14.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 194.139.17.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > :the MOS transistor was invented by Lilienfeld in 1925. > > Hang on... Just about everything I've read says that "the transistor was > invented in 1948 at Bell Labs by Bardeen, Brattan and the fascist". > What's the story here? How did the transistor that we'd all end up using > for logic anyway come to be invented 23 years before anybody took any > notice of it? Perhaps because it was invented a) outside the USA and b) before the first computer? A FET doesn't work for a simple transistor radio (at least not just some few of it), and for telephone switching it isn't good enough either. So people continued to use tubes and relais, and the invention was forgotten. FETs need high integration to show their advantages (low power, small area), and for quite a while bipolar transistors were several times faster, especially with ECL logic. It should also be noted that the pioneers of transistor computers like Cray could only use them because they were already mass products, and cheeply available (especially in Cray's case: he used "bad" transistors, which didn't work good enough for transistor radios). It took some time for computers to reverse the "available technology drives development" to "development drives technology" we have now. -- Bernd Paysan "Late answers are wrong answers!" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Date: 29 Nov 1998 00:21:47 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Bernd Paysan writes: > > lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > What's the story here? How did the transistor that we'd all end up using > > for logic anyway come to be invented 23 years before anybody took any > > notice of it? > > Perhaps because it was invented a) outside the USA Most likely. > and b) before the first computer? Radios also use electronics, so that one fails. > A FET doesn't work for a simple transistor radio Show me the evidence for that one! Many better radios use an FET (non-MOS usually) for their first stage (to gain sensitivity) and then switch to bipolar (because they are cheaper). FETs are also used in expensive power amplifiers. Actually you can replace nearly any bipolar with FETs, it is just more expensive and they are not available at the top end of the power range. > (at least not just some few of it), Single FET (BF245A) VHF radio transmitter is about the smallest "few" in the world. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ "No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson ###### From: Phil Hays Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:48:15 -0800 Organization: Real email is pd hays "at" sprynet . com (remove spaces etc) Lines: 25 Message-ID: <366196EE.642F@sprynet.com> References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sfr-pci-pqr-vty65.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!not-for-mail Bernd Paysan wrote: > > In article <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, > lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > :the MOS transistor was invented by Lilienfeld in 1925. > > > > Hang on... Just about everything I've read says that "the transistor was > > invented in 1948 at Bell Labs by Bardeen, Brattan and the fascist". > > Perhaps because it was invented a) outside the USA and b) before the first > computer? Or perhaps it's wasn't a real device, but rather a proposal that was not practical until ~1960? There were attempts to build FETS in the 1930's, and at least one of these showed signs of FET behavior. BTW: While I don't know for sure, I suspect that Lilienfeld was a USA citizen, as he has a USA patent, # 1.745.175 (1930). -- Phil Hays "Irritatingly, science claims to set limits on what we can do, even in principle." Carl Sagan ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:56:55 +0100 Message-ID: From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> X-Newsreader: rn7.bas Lines: 37 Organization: Private Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!ganesha.ganesha.com!shorter!combo.ganesha.com!peterk In article <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Bernd Paysan writes: >In article <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, > lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: >> >> :the MOS transistor was invented by Lilienfeld in 1925. Hmm, do you mean FET here? The way I heard it listed Shottky as the inventor. >> Hang on... Just about everything I've read says that "the transistor was >> invented in 1948 at Bell Labs by Bardeen, Brattan and the fascist". >> What's the story here? How did the transistor that we'd all end up using >> for logic anyway come to be invented 23 years before anybody took any >> notice of it? Point is that the invention of 1925 was grey theory. Nobody could build this device. In 1948 they were able to build a point contact bipolar transistor, and it took many more years until a real FET became doable. >Perhaps because it was invented a) outside the USA and b) before the first >computer? A FET doesn't work for a simple transistor radio (at least not just >some few of it), If it had been in existance, they sure would have found a way, I'm sure. > and for telephone switching it isn't good enough either. So >people continued to use tubes and relais, and the invention was forgotten. >FETs need high integration to show their advantages (low power, small area), >and for quite a while bipolar transistors were several times faster, >especially with ECL logic. And bipolars did exist in reality, FETs only in books. Big difference. -- Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail: Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ peterk @ combo.ganesha.com ###### From: pierson@gone.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Date: 2 DEC 98 12:59:27 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <743vls$cdl$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366196EE.642F@sprynet.com> <743r7l$adl1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gone.enet.dec.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!gone.enet.dec.com!pierson I have heard it siad (so don't ask for references... 8)>>) that in the early days of 'wireless' (ca 1900/05...) various folks reported 'anomolous' behaviour, inlcuding gain, from 'cat whisker' detector variants with two electrodes. Highly NONreproducible. Assuming (for the moment) this occurred (it may not have) Vaccuum tubes took over anyway, as they operated on Known and UNDERSTOOD physics. The triumph at Bell Labs (as i understand it) was that they worked thru the quantum mechanics, said: "hmmmmm. If we do THIS and THAT it should have gain." And they did and it did. In other words, rather than cut and try, they could (and did) _design_. (There was, parallel, cut and try evolution of solidstate. Notably in rectifiers, from 1910ish onwards. No-one could say WHY, but Chilean (?) copper made the best copper oxide for this purpose. Parallel, for different purposes/sources Sleneium rectifiers. Once the Quantum Physics got workled out & the importance of part/million impurities was understood, all became plain.) thanks dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage, Compaq Computer Corporation |the opinions, my own. 334 South St | Shrewsbury, Mass USA pierson@gone.enet.dec.com "He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing." A J Raffles "....the net of a million lies...." Vernor Vinge ###### From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Realizing the promise of computing Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.arch,comp.unix.admin Date: 2 Dec 1998 16:52:05 GMT Organization: Mechanist Industries Lines: 32 Message-ID: <743r7l$adl1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> References: <365C4687.EFABEB85@cs.wisc.edu> <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <73lr3u$lau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366196EE.642F@sprynet.com> Reply-To: tph@rmi.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cs0053.eld.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!141.211.144.13!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!longhorn!tph Phil Hays (spampostmaster@sprynet.com) wrote: : Bernd Paysan wrote: : > : > In article <73kemk$la7$2@irk.zetnet.co.uk>, : > lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: : > > :the MOS transistor was invented by Lilienfeld in 1925. : > > : > > Hang on... Just about everything I've read says that "the transistor was : > > invented in 1948 at Bell Labs by Bardeen, Brattan and the fascist". : > : > Perhaps because it was invented a) outside the USA and b) before the first : > computer? : Or perhaps it's wasn't a real device, but rather a proposal that was not : practical until ~1960? There were attempts to build FETS in the 1930's, : and at least one of these showed signs of FET behavior. : BTW: While I don't know for sure, I suspect that Lilienfeld was a USA : citizen, as he has a USA patent, # 1.745.175 (1930). You don't need to be a US citizen to get a US patent. However, some web searching turns up scanned images of the patent at . While the patent does not address citizenship, it was awarded to "JULIUS EDGAR LILIENFELD, OF BROOKLYN, NEW YORK". -- Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph "You will someday thank us for saving your mind." -The Book of the SubGenius Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx