From: dmacks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel E. Macks)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:03:26 GMT
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[AFC added 'cuz they might be interested and/or have additional
"milestones"...for y'all just tuning in, the discussion was prompted
by the Coleco computer that appeared in the 11/22/98 _Simpsons_
episode "Lisa Gets an A"]

Thomas Whelton (t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net) said;
; O.K. Youngsters, Let's all pipe down and let the old man tell a story....
; 
; Pong-appeared in the early to mid-seventies, my family aquired two by way of
; garage sale by 1977 and by that time they were laughably out of date even to
; a five year old. (I arrived in 1972)
; 
; Atari-appeared in the late seventies, perhaps the 2600 was launched arround
; 1976-1978 and was in full force market control by 1983. There was nothing
; else.
; 
; Intellivision-Appeared by the time I was in second grade in 1980-1981, It's
; great games were Baseball, Astrosmash, Space Invaders, I believe they also
; licensed a version of Pac-Man
; 
; Coleco-Vision as it was called then had a far superior quality of game, and
; capitolized on favorites of the time, Dig-Dug, Donkey Kong, Pac-Man, etc.
; 
; The rise of the game computer- when games were no longer enough to sell the
; machine the companies began to make home computer attachment modules to try
; to compete with the popular Commodore 64, which as I remember had some
; allright games. Coleco-Vision had ADAM which according to my long time buddy
; Chris- never worked either time his family purchased it. Intellivision also
; had a 'computer' which like ADAM was simply a keyboard with some simple
; capabilities yet no real computing power.

You're missin' two classics somewhere in there: the Vic-20 and
TI-99/4A. I'd put the Vic (and its TRS-80 cousins) in early
game-computer-dom (space invaders and centipede were some
classics:). I'm not sure where in the evolutionary scheme the TI
falls. It was cartidge-based like the Atari game machine, but there
were educational programs, some user programmability, and the ability
to save and reload data on cassette. All that made it substantially
more than just Pong with a pretty keyboard. And the joy of playing
with the Logo turtle robot...  *sniff* <wipes tear from eye> I
remember seeing TIs in a mobile classroom that moved around the local
school district in 1982ish (?), and the elementary school even bought
one for each classroom in '84 (even though nobody knew what to do with
'em (my how far the educational system hasn't come)).

; By 1983 Atari had launched it's Atari 800 / 400 series which for the time
; byfore Mac/PC weren't all that bad but they were essentially still suped up
; game systems. We aquired both the 400 and 800 the best feature of which was
; the 'Touch tablet' which was a complicated 'Etech-A-Sketch'(sp.)
; 
; Anyway by 1984 the Mac was well underway and in 1984 was launched and that's
; when games and computers went seperate ways.
; 
; Coleco-Vision died out because the parent company didn't know how to handel
; electronic products well. (Coleco of course made everything from toys to
; above ground pools.)
; 
; Intellivision did not keep up with innovation and after the launch of their
; home computer died out quichly, It really was Coleco-Vision that did them
; in.
; 
; Atari continued on with its sucessful line of game consoles the 5200 and
; Jaguar  both appeared in the mid eighties as well as he first generation of
; Sega.
; 
; The first sega appeared arround 1986-7 and was not a huge commercial sucess,
; sega went back to the drawing boards and came up with Genesis, which unlike
; every other game system before or since was and is a remarkable system. I
; bought mine in 1988 in Ft. Lee NJ, it had a compatibility module for all old
; first generation Sega games and an expansion slot for what the salesman
; described as 'CD games' ? The CD expansion module did not come out for five
; years but Sega had been planning it all along. They kept their fan support
; by having great compatibility for upgrades. this is the exact reason why Old
; Nintendo went through two generations and then died. no compatibility.
; 
; Super Nintendo 64 is good as is Play station but what's next?
; 
; I hope my rant has clearified things- and by the way there will be something
; after N64 and Play station, or else they will die out as have all others,
; espically since all the capabilities of these game consoles can be duped by
; a real computer.

dan
--
Daniel Macks
dmacks@a.chem.upenn.edu
dmacks@netspace.org
http://www.netspace.org/~dmacks



--
Daniel Macks
dmacks@a.chem.upenn.edu
dmacks@netspace.org
http://www.netspace.org/~dmacks

######

From: "Thomas Whelton" <t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:22:49 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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Good Job! I missed the Vic-20 and probably would have forgotten it entirely
if you had not mentioned it. When I was in elementary school we had an LAN
of TRS-80's (one of the math teachers was a comp. sci guy in college) I
remember that the system had 8 mb of storage and that was collosal! The
terminals were modified 'trash 80's' as we called em'. I have fond memories
of the text based games we used to play when allowed. There is one that
sticks in mind today, perhaps you may remember it, Empire. You built an
empire by batteling and dominnating the other fictional players and used
'bushels of wheat' as a monitary system.  I think it might have been a UNIX
game but would have to ask.

As for the TI-99 like a transformer it was 'more than meets the eye' (ok I'm
a certified looser, but who cares I'm happy!) The TI-99 had very limited
functionality, essentially a storage device, but a superior design. This is
shocking so please don't think i'm pulling your leg. The TI-99 used a 64 bit
arcitecture! Primitive yes but years ahead of the 80x86 16 and 32 bit stuff.
I learned all this from the head of Tech supp. at Dell computers as we
worked by phone for several hours to repartition and reinstall some stuff.
This guy's hobby was collecting old computers- he first got into computers
when the ALTAIR came out oin the early 70's. So this tech. guy was telling
me that the chip TI used wes a 64 bit arcitecture, but was passed over by
the industry because software had not achieved a level of equilibrium with
hardware. Intel went with the simple multi generational approach to
hardware- many generations with minor upgrades to keep customers hooked. 64
bit tech. is the next frontier of computing and to think a 64 bit chip has
been arround this time and not exploited!

I'd love to learn more about this if anyone could tell me more....that's all
I know about it.

Tom Whelton
Boston, MA


Daniel E. Macks wrote in message <73btfu$o4p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>[AFC added 'cuz they might be interested and/or have additional
>"milestones"...for y'all just tuning in, the discussion was prompted
>by the Coleco computer that appeared in the 11/22/98 _Simpsons_
>episode "Lisa Gets an A"]
>
>Thomas Whelton (t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net) said;
>; O.K. Youngsters, Let's all pipe down and let the old man tell a story....
>;
>; Pong-appeared in the early to mid-seventies, my family aquired two by way
of
>; garage sale by 1977 and by that time they were laughably out of date even
to
>; a five year old. (I arrived in 1972)
>;
>; Atari-appeared in the late seventies, perhaps the 2600 was launched
arround
>; 1976-1978 and was in full force market control by 1983. There was nothing
>; else.
>;
>; Intellivision-Appeared by the time I was in second grade in 1980-1981,
It's
>; great games were Baseball, Astrosmash, Space Invaders, I believe they
also
>; licensed a version of Pac-Man
>;
>; Coleco-Vision as it was called then had a far superior quality of game,
and
>; capitolized on favorites of the time, Dig-Dug, Donkey Kong, Pac-Man, etc.
>;
>; The rise of the game computer- when games were no longer enough to sell
the
>; machine the companies began to make home computer attachment modules to
try
>; to compete with the popular Commodore 64, which as I remember had some
>; allright games. Coleco-Vision had ADAM which according to my long time
buddy
>; Chris- never worked either time his family purchased it. Intellivision
also
>; had a 'computer' which like ADAM was simply a keyboard with some simple
>; capabilities yet no real computing power.
>
>You're missin' two classics somewhere in there: the Vic-20 and
>TI-99/4A. I'd put the Vic (and its TRS-80 cousins) in early
>game-computer-dom (space invaders and centipede were some
>classics:). I'm not sure where in the evolutionary scheme the TI
>falls. It was cartidge-based like the Atari game machine, but there
>were educational programs, some user programmability, and the ability
>to save and reload data on cassette. All that made it substantially
>more than just Pong with a pretty keyboard. And the joy of playing
>with the Logo turtle robot...  *sniff* <wipes tear from eye> I
>remember seeing TIs in a mobile classroom that moved around the local
>school district in 1982ish (?), and the elementary school even bought
>one for each classroom in '84 (even though nobody knew what to do with
>'em (my how far the educational system hasn't come)).
>
>; By 1983 Atari had launched it's Atari 800 / 400 series which for the time
>; byfore Mac/PC weren't all that bad but they were essentially still suped
up
>; game systems. We aquired both the 400 and 800 the best feature of which
was
>; the 'Touch tablet' which was a complicated 'Etech-A-Sketch'(sp.)
>;
>; Anyway by 1984 the Mac was well underway and in 1984 was launched and
that's
>; when games and computers went seperate ways.
>;
>; Coleco-Vision died out because the parent company didn't know how to
handel
>; electronic products well. (Coleco of course made everything from toys to
>; above ground pools.)
>;
>; Intellivision did not keep up with innovation and after the launch of
their
>; home computer died out quichly, It really was Coleco-Vision that did them
>; in.
>;
>; Atari continued on with its sucessful line of game consoles the 5200 and
>; Jaguar  both appeared in the mid eighties as well as he first generation
of
>; Sega.
>;
>; The first sega appeared arround 1986-7 and was not a huge commercial
sucess,
>; sega went back to the drawing boards and came up with Genesis, which
unlike
>; every other game system before or since was and is a remarkable system. I
>; bought mine in 1988 in Ft. Lee NJ, it had a compatibility module for all
old
>; first generation Sega games and an expansion slot for what the salesman
>; described as 'CD games' ? The CD expansion module did not come out for
five
>; years but Sega had been planning it all along. They kept their fan
support
>; by having great compatibility for upgrades. this is the exact reason why
Old
>; Nintendo went through two generations and then died. no compatibility.
>;
>; Super Nintendo 64 is good as is Play station but what's next?
>;
>; I hope my rant has clearified things- and by the way there will be
something
>; after N64 and Play station, or else they will die out as have all others,
>; espically since all the capabilities of these game consoles can be duped
by
>; a real computer.
>
>dan
>--
>Daniel Macks
>dmacks@a.chem.upenn.edu
>dmacks@netspace.org
>http://www.netspace.org/~dmacks
>
>
>
>--
>Daniel Macks
>dmacks@a.chem.upenn.edu
>dmacks@netspace.org
>http://www.netspace.org/~dmacks
>

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:01:52 +0100
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"Thomas Whelton" <t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> As for the TI-99 like a transformer it was 'more than meets the eye' (ok I'm
> a certified looser, but who cares I'm happy!)

Thanks for noticing. Then there is hope for recovery :-).


> The TI-99 had very limited
> functionality, essentially a storage device,

Nope. Was a full computer, TI just never let it flex its muscles.


> but a superior design.

Actually badly implemented, see the 256Bytes thing my other post.


> shocking so please don't think i'm pulling your leg. The TI-99 used a 64 bit
> arcitecture! Primitive yes but years ahead of the 80x86 16 and 32 bit stuff.

Nope. 16bit. Wide for them days. But nowhere near 64bit.

Also limited to 64kBytes of Memory (16k BASIC ROM, 16k module ROM, 32k
extension box RAM if you could afford the e box). The 8086 was already
better (faster, more memory) than the TMS9980A in the 99/4A.


> I learned all this from the head of Tech supp. at Dell computers as we

He was pulling your leg. Or his memory is fading. Or he never knew.


> This guy's hobby was collecting old computers- he first got into computers
> when the ALTAIR came out oin the early 70's.

1975. So that would be mid 1970's.


> me that the chip TI used wes a 64 bit arcitecture, but was passed over by
> the industry because software had not achieved a level of equilibrium with
> hardware.

64bit software existed since the late 60s. But 64bit computers were in
the million dollar price range then. The 9980 was more likely passed
over because TI only used them for their own computers, did not sell
them like Intel did.


> I'd love to learn more about this if anyone could tell me more....that's all
> I know about it.

Hope I have helped recovery.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:04:02 +0100
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dmacks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel E. Macks) writes:
>
> [AFC added 'cuz they might be interested and/or have additional
> "milestones"

The right place for old computers.
a.f.c-ers: yes, 1970/80s is new, not old, no flames please.
           yes, there are no punched cards in this post either.


> Thomas Whelton (t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net) said;
> ; O.K. Youngsters, Let's all pipe down and let the old man tell a story....
> ; a five year old. (I arrived in 1972)

Born 1972 = old? I must be fossilised with 1965 :-). Not to mention them
1940-ers on a.f.c.


> ; Atari-appeared in the late seventies,

Atari made the original arcade pong game ca 1970. Then the TV pongs.


> perhaps the 2600 was launched arround 1976-1978

Seems to be about right for the VCS (2600).


> and was in full force market control by 1983. There was nothing

By then home computers were already stealing its butter. Atari crashed
short after then. Top point was 1981/82 range.

(Micro-)Computers would be (numbers from Byte magazine September 1985):

1975 Altair 8800
1976 Imsai 8080, Apple I
1977 Apple II, Commodore PET/2001, Tandy/Radio Shack TRS 80 Model I
1978 Atari 400 and 800
1979 TI 99/4A
1980 Commodore VIC-20, Timex/Sinclair ZX80
1981 IBM PC
1982 Commodore C64, IBM PC/XT
1983 Apple Lisa, IBM PCJR
1984 Apple Macintosh, IBM PC/AT


> ; The rise of the game computer- when games were no longer enough to sell the

Actually most of them games machines were internally real computers
(microprocessors/RAM/ROM), they just lacked software (read: BASIC) that
allowed users to program them and the necessary keyboard and cassette
tape connections.


> ; machine the companies began to make home computer attachment modules to try
> ; to compete with the popular Commodore 64, which as I remember had some
> ; allright games.

Attacking an established system without offering any advantage usually
fails. And of course they did not have Jack Tramiel (Commodore founder,
owner and boss) either.


> You're missin' two classics somewhere in there: the Vic-20 and
> TI-99/4A. I'd put the Vic

VIC-20 was an 1MHz 6502 processor, same the other Commodores and the
Ataris.


> (and its TRS-80 cousins)

TRS-80 were Z80 processors, same the Sinclairs.


> in early
> game-computer-dom (space invaders and centipede were some classics:).

Both were fully featured home computers.


> I'm not sure where in the evolutionary scheme the TI falls.

TMS9980A processor 16bit (!). But lousy externals such as no RAM in
direct access (only the 256Bytes RAM on the 9980 and 16kBytes via the
9918 (?) video chip) spoilt it.


> It was cartidge-based like the Atari game machine, but there

And it had BASIC in it and keyboard and cassette. Full computer.


> ; By 1983 Atari had launched it's Atari 800 / 400 series which for the time

A lot earlier, see above. But they never spread due to the innovative
approach of making documentation not available (to prevent others from
developing rival games modules).


> ; when games and computers went seperate ways.

Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.

I was one that got bitten by the programming bug then (1981), but that
was an $15000 dual-Z80 96kByte and 2 160k floppies thing at shool.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

From: "Andrew Cadley" <a.p.cadley@uea.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:39:14 -0000
Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK
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Daniel E. Macks wrote in message <73btfu$o4p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...

:; The rise of the game computer- when games were no longer enough to sell
the
:; machine the companies began to make home computer attachment modules to
try
:; to compete with the popular Commodore 64, which as I remember had some
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sinclair ZX Spectrum, surely?

;-)

AndyC

######

From: timothy.mccaffrey@spam2filter.unisys.com.takethisoff (Tim McCaffrey)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 23 Nov 1998 19:42:12 GMT
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In article <73buk9$8tn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, 
t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net says...
>
>
>As for the TI-99 like a transformer it was 'more than meets the eye' (ok I'm
>a certified looser, but who cares I'm happy!) The TI-99 had very limited
>functionality, essentially a storage device, but a superior design. This is
>shocking so please don't think i'm pulling your leg. The TI-99 used a 64 bit
>arcitecture! Primitive yes but years ahead of the 80x86 16 and 32 bit stuff.
>I learned all this from the head of Tech supp. at Dell computers as we
>worked by phone for several hours to repartition and reinstall some stuff.
>This guy's hobby was collecting old computers- he first got into computers
>when the ALTAIR came out oin the early 70's. So this tech. guy was telling
>me that the chip TI used wes a 64 bit arcitecture, but was passed over by
>the industry because software had not achieved a level of equilibrium with
>hardware. Intel went with the simple multi generational approach to
>hardware- many generations with minor upgrades to keep customers hooked. 64
>bit tech. is the next frontier of computing and to think a 64 bit chip has
>been arround this time and not exploited!
>
>I'd love to learn more about this if anyone could tell me more....that's all
>I know about it.
>
>Tom Whelton
>Boston, MA
>
>

No, sorry, the TI-99 used a TI9900 series processor.  It was a 16 architecture 
with 16, 16 bit GP registers.  However, the GP registers were actually located 
in memory, and a Working Storage Pointer register pointed to where the GP 
"registers" were actually located.  To do a task switch, you only had to 
change 3 registers, the WS register, the Stack Pointer and the Program 
Counter.  The I/O was all serial based, with the result that a TI9900 
compitable UART fit on a 18(16?) pin DIP.

The TI9900 was based on TI's minicomputer line, and TI treated it as part of 
their minicomputers.  They were producing the chip in the mid to late 70's, 
but because TI kept it so close to them, nobody really got a chance to use it.

TI eventually produced a 99000, but it was too little (16 bit) and way too 
late to market.  TI could have produced a computer when the TRS-80 and the PET 
were introduced that would have blown away the competition, but they didn't 
see a market.

If you don't believe me, look up the datasheets for yourself.

BTW, to another post, the IBM-PC was introduced in August, 1981.

					Tim McCaffrey

######

From: "Thomas Whelton" <t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 00:07:27 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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I guess my memory or information was wrong, but either way I was wrong-
Thanks for the posting so that I don't repeat the story and make more of a
fool of myself.

Your level of knowledge on this subject begs the question as to how you know
all this? Just an avid hacker or a fan of EE?

Computer discussions obviously don't belong in the Simpsons group but is
there one on this subject or close too it?

Tom W.


Tim McCaffrey wrote in message <73cdqk$j5b$1@mail.pl.unisys.com>...
>In article <73buk9$8tn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
>t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net says...

>
>No, sorry, the TI-99 used a TI9900 series processor.  It was a 16
architecture
>with 16, 16 bit GP registers.  However, the GP registers were actually
located
>in memory, and a Working Storage Pointer register pointed to where the GP
>"registers" were actually located.  To do a task switch, you only had to
>change 3 registers, the WS register, the Stack Pointer and the Program
>Counter.  The I/O was all serial based, with the result that a TI9900
>compitable UART fit on a 18(16?) pin DIP.
>
>The TI9900 was based on TI's minicomputer line, and TI treated it as part
of
>their minicomputers.  They were producing the chip in the mid to late 70's,
>but because TI kept it so close to them, nobody really got a chance to use
it.
>
>TI eventually produced a 99000, but it was too little (16 bit) and way too
>late to market.  TI could have produced a computer when the TRS-80 and the
PET
>were introduced that would have blown away the competition, but they didn't
>see a market.
>
>If you don't believe me, look up the datasheets for yourself.
>
>BTW, to another post, the IBM-PC was introduced in August, 1981.
>
> Tim McCaffrey
>

######

From: lee@adan.kingston.net (Haynes Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:32:30 GMT
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"Thomas Whelton" <t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net> wrote:


>
>Computer discussions obviously don't belong in the Simpsons group but is
>there one on this subject or close too it?

Yes, goto
http://www.snpp.com/guides/computers.file.html

######

From: "The WAV King" <johnn3qzc@earthlink.net.NOSPAM>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:02:32 -0500
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I missed some of the thread... Did we forget the TRASH-80 by radio shack?

I mean TRS-80.


--
Home page at http://home.earthlink.net/~johnn3qzc/index.html
Request man for www.icbiass.com
see also www.snpp.com for more than you needed to know about the Simpsons
ICQ 10176400
AOL instant messenger name "The WAVEKng"
Andrew Cadley wrote in message <73e8i1$jp9@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>...
>
>Neil Franklin wrote in message ...
>:dmacks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel E. Macks) writes:
>:>
>
>:(Micro-)Computers would be (numbers from Byte magazine September 1985):
>
>
>[snip]
>:1982 Commodore C64, IBM PC/XT
>
>*cough*
>
>Sinclair's ZX Spectrum was also '82
>
>:1983 Apple Lisa, IBM PCJR
>:1984 Apple Macintosh, IBM PC/AT
>
>
>and Amstrad's absolutely brilliant CPC 464. :-)
>
>AndyC
>
>

######

From: roba@ita.cph.dk (R. Maitland Baxter)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:40:44 GMT
Organization: CPH
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On 23 Nov 1998 15:03:26 GMT, dmacks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel E.
Macks) wrote:

>[AFC added 'cuz they might be interested and/or have additional
>"milestones"...for y'all just tuning in, the discussion was prompted
>by the Coleco computer that appeared in the 11/22/98 _Simpsons_
>episode "Lisa Gets an A"]
>
>Thomas Whelton (t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net) said;
>; O.K. Youngsters, Let's all pipe down and let the old man tell a story....
>; 
>; Pong-appeared in the early to mid-seventies, my family aquired two by way of
>; garage sale by 1977 and by that time they were laughably out of date even to
>; a five year old. (I arrived in 1972)
>; 
>; Atari-appeared in the late seventies, perhaps the 2600 was launched arround
>; 1976-1978 and was in full force market control by 1983. There was nothing
>; else.
>; 
>; Intellivision-Appeared by the time I was in second grade in 1980-1981, It's
>; great games were Baseball, Astrosmash, Space Invaders, I believe they also
>; licensed a version of Pac-Man

Whoa man, don't forget Burger Time and Shark Shark!

######

From: "Andrew Cadley" <a.p.cadley@uea.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:22:53 -0000
Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK
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Neil Franklin wrote in message ...
:dmacks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel E. Macks) writes:
:>

:(Micro-)Computers would be (numbers from Byte magazine September 1985):


[snip]
:1982 Commodore C64, IBM PC/XT

*cough*

Sinclair's ZX Spectrum was also '82

:1983 Apple Lisa, IBM PCJR
:1984 Apple Macintosh, IBM PC/AT


and Amstrad's absolutely brilliant CPC 464. :-)

AndyC

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 22:31:02 +0100
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timothy.mccaffrey@spam2filter.unisys.com.takethisoff (Tim McCaffrey) writes:
>
> No, sorry, the TI-99 used a TI9900 series processor.

> To do a task switch, you only had to
> change 3 registers, the WS register, the Stack Pointer and the Program
> Counter.

Hmmm. How sure are you of that one? IIRC the PC and SP were 2 of the
16 registers in RAM. Doing an read-modify-write on every opcode fetch
was one of the things that made the 9900 so surprisingly slow.

The CPU context to task switch consisted of the WS (16 bit pointer to
the 16 RAM registers) and the status register (8 flag bits and 2 times
4bit to select PC/SP from the 16 RAM registers).


>  The I/O was all serial based, with the result that a TI9900
> compitable UART fit on a 18(16?) pin DIP.

Ah yes, the serial IO bus. I had forgotten that one.

Bad they never made real use of it (printer, diskdrive on the
serial link would have been cool).


> The TI9900 was based on TI's minicomputer line, and TI treated it as part of
> their minicomputers.  They were producing the chip in the mid to late 70's,
> but because TI kept it so close to them, nobody really got a chance to use it

Unfortunately. Closed minds, closed system, dead system.


> late to market. TI could have produced a computer when the TRS-80 and the PET
> were introduced that would have blown away the competition, but they didn't
> see a market.

Same actually DEC with the LSI-11. Full 16bit microprocessor (used in
the Micro-PDP-11). But was never marketed as an PC. Would have been a
lot nices architecture as the 8080.


> BTW, to another post, the IBM-PC was introduced in August, 1981.

Yes.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 22:35:05 +0100
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"Andrew Cadley" <a.p.cadley@uea.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Neil Franklin wrote in message ...
>
> :(Micro-)Computers would be (numbers from Byte magazine September 1985):
>
> :1982 Commodore C64, IBM PC/XT
>
> Sinclair's ZX Spectrum was also '82

How did I manage to forget that one? I nearly even bought one of them.


> :1984 Apple Macintosh, IBM PC/AT
>
> and Amstrad's absolutely brilliant CPC 464. :-)

The only latecommer that was an success.


One still missing: the BBC. Anyone have the date for that one? Lisard?


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

From: scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM (Scott Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 24 Nov 1998 20:33:45 GMT
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In article fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> writes:
>dmacks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Daniel E. Macks) writes:
>>
>> [AFC added 'cuz they might be interested and/or have additional
>> "milestones"
>
>The right place for old computers.
>a.f.c-ers: yes, 1970/80s is new, not old, no flames please.
>           yes, there are no punched cards in this post either.
>
>
>> Thomas Whelton (t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net) said;
>> ; O.K. Youngsters, Let's all pipe down and let the old man tell a story....
>> ; a five year old. (I arrived in 1972)
>
>Born 1972 = old? I must be fossilised with 1965 :-). Not to mention them
>1940-ers on a.f.c.
>
How about 1951?
>
>> ; Atari-appeared in the late seventies,
>
>Atari made the original arcade pong game ca 1970. Then the TV pongs.
>
The real original game was Computer Space, a space war game, out late '72 early '73.
My logic design class made a field trip to the MIT student center where an early
game was located to view it.  It bombed, because it was too complicated.  Pong,
just right for bars, was the first success.

>
>> perhaps the 2600 was launched arround 1976-1978

1977 according to a 2600 emulator home page I just found.  Our first was
in 1981 (actually the Sears relabel) - so I'm surprised it was out so long before
that.

>
>Seems to be about right for the VCS (2600).
>
>
>> and was in full force market control by 1983. There was nothing
>
>By then home computers were already stealing its butter. Atari crashed
>short after then. Top point was 1981/82 range.
>
>(Micro-)Computers would be (numbers from Byte magazine September 1985):
>
>1975 Altair 8800
>1976 Imsai 8080, Apple I
>1977 Apple II, Commodore PET/2001, Tandy/Radio Shack TRS 80 Model I
>1978 Atari 400 and 800
>1979 TI 99/4A
>1980 Commodore VIC-20, Timex/Sinclair ZX80
>1981 IBM PC
>1982 Commodore C64, IBM PC/XT
>1983 Apple Lisa, IBM PCJR
>1984 Apple Macintosh, IBM PC/AT
>
>
>> ; The rise of the game computer- when games were no longer enough to sell the
>
>Actually most of them games machines were internally real computers
>(microprocessors/RAM/ROM), they just lacked software (read: BASIC) that
>allowed users to program them and the necessary keyboard and cassette
>tape connections.
>
I seem to remember a Basic cartridge for Atari - but I had a C64 by then.

>
>> ; machine the companies began to make home computer attachment modules to try
>> ; to compete with the popular Commodore 64, which as I remember had some
>> ; allright games.
>
>Attacking an established system without offering any advantage usually
>fails. And of course they did not have Jack Tramiel (Commodore founder,
>owner and boss) either.
>
>
>> You're missin' two classics somewhere in there: the Vic-20 and
>> TI-99/4A. I'd put the Vic
>
>VIC-20 was an 1MHz 6502 processor, same the other Commodores and the
>Ataris.
>
>
>> (and its TRS-80 cousins)
>
>TRS-80 were Z80 processors, same the Sinclairs.
>
>
>> in early
>> game-computer-dom (space invaders and centipede were some classics:).
>
>Both were fully featured home computers.
>
>
>> I'm not sure where in the evolutionary scheme the TI falls.
>
>TMS9980A processor 16bit (!). But lousy externals such as no RAM in
>direct access (only the 256Bytes RAM on the 9980 and 16kBytes via the
>9918 (?) video chip) spoilt it.
>
>
>> It was cartidge-based like the Atari game machine, but there
>
>And it had BASIC in it and keyboard and cassette. Full computer.
>

Well, you needed an extra module to allow you to plug in a disk drive, while the C64
had everything internal - you just bought the drive, and plugged it in, and you
could even buy two.

What really killed the TI machine was that TI got into a price war with Commodore.
Commodore had much lower manufacturing costs.  The price fell from $900 to
$199 in a matter of months.  When TI tried to match it, they got killed - I believe
they lost in the hundreds of millions of dollars.  That was it for their
home business.

Commodore quality was poor.  I knew a VP who told me they deliberately went to
market with a flaky video chip (the famous sparkle bug.)  But they did price the
system right.  How was TI quality - I assume it was better.

Scott

change nospam to sun to email me.

>
>> ; By 1983 Atari had launched it's Atari 800 / 400 series which for the time
>
>A lot earlier, see above. But they never spread due to the innovative
>approach of making documentation not available (to prevent others from
>developing rival games modules).
>
>
>> ; when games and computers went seperate ways.
>
>Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.
>
>I was one that got bitten by the programming bug then (1981), but that
>was an $15000 dual-Z80 96kByte and 2 160k floppies thing at shool.
>
>
>--
>Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
>neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
>"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 20:05:14 GMT
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On 1998-11-23 t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net said:
   :As for the TI-99 like a transformer it was 'more than meets the
   :eye' (ok I'm a certified looser, but who cares I'm happy!) The
   :TI-99 had very limited functionality, essentially a storage device,
   :but a superior design. This is shocking so please don't think i'm
   :pulling your leg. The TI-99 used a 64 bit arcitecture! Primitive
   :yes but years ahead of the 80x86 16 and 32 bit stuff. I learned all
   :this from the head of Tech supp. at Dell computers as we worked by
   :phone for several hours to repartition and reinstall some stuff.

I think you should go back and have a real go at this guy, because he's
probably still laughing about this one. The TI-99 used a 16-bit
architecture, which although it was a more sophisticated architecture
than anything else you could buy for a hundred quid wasn't quite the
quantum leap you've been led to believe. It was the TMS9995, which had
an 8-bit data bus. It was somewhat sluggish, though; first, because the
processor architecture was highly memory-intensive, for example keeping
all registers in memory (though I seem to remember the 9995 including a
little RAM on-chip - am I wrong?); second, because the CPU couldn't
address its memory directly, but had to go through the graphics
processor to get at it. (One of the 9918 series?)
--
Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing

######

From: Mike Swaim <swaim@gemini.c-com.net>
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
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In alt.folklore.computers lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
: On 1998-11-23 t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net said:
: an 8-bit data bus. It was somewhat sluggish, though; first, because the
: processor architecture was highly memory-intensive, for example keeping
: all registers in memory (though I seem to remember the 9995 including a
: little RAM on-chip - am I wrong?);
  ~256 bytes, I believe.

: second, because the CPU couldn't
: address its memory directly, but had to go through the graphics
: processor to get at it. (One of the 9918 series?)
  Correct about going through the graphics chip to get to main memory. The
32K expansion and assembler cartridge (with 4K of ram) were directly
accessed by the CPU. Extended BASIC was nice, though.

-- 
Mike Swaim, Avatar of Chaos: Disclaimer:I sometimes lie.
Home: swaim@c-com.net
Alum: swaim@alumni.rice.edu  Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W&D

######

From: timothy.mccaffrey@spam2filter.unisys.com.takethisoff (Tim McCaffrey)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 24 Nov 1998 22:34:57 GMT
Organization: A series networking
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In article <73ctbv$a60@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, 
t.d.whelton@worldnet.att.net says...
>>
>Your level of knowledge on this subject begs the question as to how you know
>all this? Just an avid hacker or a fan of EE?
>
>Tom W.
>

I got interested in computers in high school, and promptly went out to the 
local computer store and looked longingly at a IMSAI 8800.  I bought 
Lancaster's TTL and CMOS cookbooks, and while I never built anything of 
significance, I learned alot about digital electronics.  I looked up 
information about every processor that was out at the time, as I wanted to 
build a system myself from the ground up, never did get around to it.  In 
retrospect, it would have been better to have bought an Apple II.

The processors I remember from that time were:  
8080
Z-80
6502
6800
1802
2650 (ever notice the relation of the number to 6502?)
     (BTW, I think Signetics should have had their head
      examined for this monstrosity).
9900 (16 bit) (includes variants like 9980 and 9995).
F8	(Atari game console?)
SCAMP
GI-1600	(16 bit) (used in Mattel Intellivision)
Bit slice components like 8x300 and 2900.
Later on the 6809, 8085, 8086, 68000 and Z8000 appeared.
(National and Fairchild also made DG Nova like CPUs).
(IMS? made a PDP-8 compatible CPU).

Anybody else remember any more?

				Tim McCaffrey

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 25 Nov 1998 19:58:26 +0100
Organization: My own Private Self
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scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM (Scott Davidson) writes:
>
> 1977 according to a 2600 emulator home page I just found.  Our first was
> in 1981 (actually the Sears relabel) - so I'm surprised it was out
> so long before that.

Where? URL.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

From: joewest@sr.hp.com (Joe West)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 25 Nov 1998 16:57:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Sonoma County
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Scott Davidson (scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM) wrote:
<snip>
: The real original game was Computer Space, a space war game, out late '72 
: early '73.  My logic design class made a field trip to the MIT student 
: center where an early game was located to view it.  It bombed, because it 
: was too complicated.  

I recall playing a port of this game at the UC Berkeley campus, running on an
IBM 1620 (?) in the basement of some building (physics?).  There it was 
called "spacewar", had a vector display that had been hacked onto the 1620.  
This was about 1971 or so, and the game was not "new" then, although the port
was fairly recent IIRC.  Lots of fun, good model of the sun's gravitational
well.  The experienced players were very good at high eccentricity eliptical
orbits or even hyperbolic "orbits" as tactics.  (Not me, however.  I wasn't 
able to spend much time playing it.)

Joe

######

From: scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM (Scott Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 25 Nov 1998 18:38:22 GMT
Organization: LGP21 Users Group
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In article 1uu@canyon.sr.hp.com, joewest@sr.hp.com (Joe West) writes:
>Scott Davidson (scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM) wrote:
><snip>
>: The real original game was Computer Space, a space war game, out late '72 
>: early '73.  My logic design class made a field trip to the MIT student 
>: center where an early game was located to view it.  It bombed, because it 
>: was too complicated.  
>
>I recall playing a port of this game at the UC Berkeley campus, running on an
>IBM 1620 (?) in the basement of some building (physics?).  There it was 
>called "spacewar", had a vector display that had been hacked onto the 1620.  
>This was about 1971 or so, and the game was not "new" then, although the port
>was fairly recent IIRC.  Lots of fun, good model of the sun's gravitational
>well.  The experienced players were very good at high eccentricity eliptical
>orbits or even hyperbolic "orbits" as tactics.  (Not me, however.  I wasn't 
>able to spend much time playing it.)
>

Spacewar had been around for a while before Bushnell did it.  It was first
developed on the MIT PDP-1 (serial #2, #1 was at Harvard) long before my time.

I officially learned assembler on that machine - our final project was to implement
the Game of Life on the tube.  You only got an A if there was no blinking - which
meant you handled the interrupts fast enough.

I was never aware it had been ported to a 1620 though.  Someone here mentioned
trying to restore one - I wonder if the game is still available?

Scott

>Joe
>
>

######

From: hellsop@execpc.com (Peter H. Coffin)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:58:46 -0600
Organization: ExecPC Internet - Milwaukee, WI
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Scott Davidson <scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM> wrote:

> What really killed the TI machine was that TI got into a price war with
> Commodore. Commodore had much lower manufacturing costs.  The price fell
> from $900 to $199 in a matter of months.  When TI tried to match it, they
> got killed - I believe they lost in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
> That was it for their home business.

Hence the "old" joke about TI losing money on every unit, but making it
up in volume.. (:

-- 
Someday we'll look back on all this, laugh nervously, and change the
subject.

######

From: Luis Fernandes <elf@ee.ryerson.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 28 Nov 1998 11:19:01 -0500
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnic University
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    scottdav> I was never aware it had been ported to a 1620 though.
    scottdav> Someone here mentioned trying to restore one - I wonder
    scottdav> if the game is still available?

Can't help you with a 1620 version.

How about one for the PC? Got this one back in Oct. of 1993; someone
here sent it to me. I played it on a 386/33 and it played a bit to
fast. It played OK on a 4MHz IBM-PC (actually managed to scavenge one
with a CGA display).

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end

######

Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:04:07 +0100
Message-ID: <peterk.21u4@combo.ganesha.com>
From: peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel)
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Reply-To: peterk @ combo.ganesha.com
References: <73br6u$q1q@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73btfu$o4p$1@netnews.upenn.edu> <73c6n8$8eb@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
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In article <73c6n8$8eb@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> "Andrew Cadley" <a.p.cadley@uea.ac.uk> writes:
>Daniel E. Macks wrote in message <73btfu$o4p$1@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>
>:; The rise of the game computer- when games were no longer enough to sell the
>:; machine the companies began to make home computer attachment modules to try
>:; to compete with the popular Commodore 64, which as I remember had some
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Sinclair ZX Spectrum, surely?

Did it also sell in 17 million units, like the C64?

>;-)

-- 
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel       // E-Mail:
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/  peterk @ combo.ganesha.com

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
References: <73br6u$q1q@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73buk9$8tn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73cdqk$j5b$1@mail.pl.unisys.com> <m3u2zodbhl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
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From: bauer@shell3.ba.best.com (Jerry Bauer)
Date: 25 Nov 1998 02:33:11 GMT
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In article <m3u2zodbhl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>,
Neil Franklin  <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
>timothy.mccaffrey@spam2filter.unisys.com.takethisoff (Tim McCaffrey) writes:
<<< snip >>>
>
>>  The I/O was all serial based, with the result that a TI9900
>> compitable UART fit on a 18(16?) pin DIP.
>
>Ah yes, the serial IO bus. I had forgotten that one.
>
>Bad they never made real use of it (printer, diskdrive on the
>serial link would have been cool).
>

Actually, the I/O was one-bit-wide parallel -- a fine distinction, to
be sure.  The address bus provides a unique address for each bit of
I/O.

"The 9900 processor has a unique I/O architecture and does not
incorporate port organized I/O.  All of the input/output bits of the
9900 are organized as a single register of 4096 input bits and 4096
output bits.  The processor can read a single bit or a grouping of
bits from the input register and write a single bit or a grouping of
bits to the output register."  -- 16 Bit Microprocessor Architecture,
Terry Dollhoff, ISBN 0-8359-7001-9

Together, all those I/O bits comprise the CRU -- Communications
Register Unit.

From the same book, we can learn that there are three registers
on-board the CPU -- the Workspace Pointer (WP), the Program Counter
(PC, and the STatus register (ST).  There is no Stack Pointer.  It is
up to the programmer to implement a mechanism for calling and
returning from subroutines.  There is a Branch-and-Link operation (BL)
that writes the "old PC" (the return address) into R11 of the current
workspace and loads a new value into the PC.  But what about nested
subroutines?  Recursion?  Well, ya gotta work it out yersef.

There is also available the BLWP (Branch and Load WP), which gives a
new set of workspace registers and saves the old PC, WP, and ST in
R13, R14, and R15 of the new workspace.  There is a corresponding
RTWP, to return.  That's a little better, but it consumes a bunch of
memory (32 bytes) per subroutine call.  (Not a lot now, but then ...)

There's a lot more uncommon stuff about this processor, some
prescient, some just wierd.  It was a very interesting design.

Jerry Randal Bauer



P.S. I cut alt.tv.simpsons; this is posted only to
alt.folklore.computers (I hope).

######

From: "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 25 Nov 98 07:17:15 +0000
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On 24-Nov-98 21:35:05, Neil Franklin said:

>One still missing: the BBC. Anyone have the date for that one? Lisard?

Has to have been somewhere in the 1980-1982 period. Wasn't 81 or 82
the "Year of IT" in the UK?

-- 
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
ZOOGE

######

From: dg@ (David Given)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:53:48 GMT
Organization: I'm organised? Wow!
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In article <m3sof8dbau.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>,
Neil Franklin  <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
[...]
>One still missing: the BBC. Anyone have the date for that one? Lisard?

1981? 1982?

IVR that you could find out which version of Basic by looking at the
copyright date (*BASIC to reinitialise; REPORT to display the last error
message. Immediately after reset it was the copyright message instead). If
it said 1981, it was Basic I. If it said 1982, it was Basic II. If I'm
correct, this means that the first BBC's must have been out around '81.

-- 
+- David Given ----------------+ This is a test. This is only a test.
|  Work: dg@tao.co.uk          | Had this been a real emergency, you
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com      | would all be dead by now.         
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ 

######

From: William.Hamblen@nashville.com (William Hamblen)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:34:49 GMT
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On 24 Nov 1998 22:35:05 +0100, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

>One still missing: the BBC. Anyone have the date for that one? Lisard?

How about the SWTPC 6800 (1975)?  Southwest Technical Products Corp
made a living selling hi-fi kits and projects for Popular Electronics
articles.  One of their products was a TV Typewriter kit.  They
noticed people were buying TV Typewriters to use with Altairs and
brought out a microcomputer kit based on Motorola's 6800 evaluation
chip set.  The design was practically straight from the 6800
application notes and used the Motorola Mikbug ROM monitor.  SWTPC had
an ad on the inside front cover of Byte for several years running.

######

From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 26 Nov 1998 20:46:07 GMT
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On 1998-11-24 neil@franklin.ch.remove said:
   :One still missing: the BBC. Anyone have the date for that one?
   :Lisard?

Not exactly, but I think either 1981 or 1982, and here's why:

The BBC, when they realised that home computers were to be a Big Thing,
decided to make some programmes about them, and fund a big educational
push, and wanted to commission a computer. They evaluated a number of
alternatives, including the Grundy Newbrain, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum (I
believe), and the Acorn Proton. The last of these had all kinds of I/O
facilities that the others lacked, and also had a very sexy version of
Basic; it was both fast and properly structured.

The Acorn Proton won the contract. It became the BBC. But I believe this
all happened in either 1981 or 1982, inclining to the latter.

Interestingly the Newbrain was another Sinclair design. He tried again
with the QL. Nonetheless, the BBC showed very little inclination to
switch, staying with Acorn up to the Archimedes (the BBC A3000).
--
Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing

######

From: martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:16:32 GMT
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On 23 Nov 1998 23:04:02 +0100, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

>Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.

Do you feel things have changed in this regard in the intervening
years? At all?

######

From: "Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:27:03 -0500
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And here I thought programming *was* a game ...

Martin Ibert wrote in message <3660168d.15966710@news.home.ibert.com>...
>On 23 Nov 1998 23:04:02 +0100, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>wrote:
>
>>Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.
>
>Do you feel things have changed in this regard in the intervening
>years? At all?

######

From: Ariel Scolnicov <ariels@compugen.co.il>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 29 Nov 1998 22:35:33 +0200
Organization: NetVision Israel	
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Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> writes:

> "Andrew Cadley" <a.p.cadley@uea.ac.uk> writes:
> >
> > Neil Franklin wrote in message ...
> >
> > :(Micro-)Computers would be (numbers from Byte magazine September 1985):
> >
> > :1982 Commodore C64, IBM PC/XT
> >
> > Sinclair's ZX Spectrum was also '82
> 
> How did I manage to forget that one? I nearly even bought one of them.
> 
> 
> > :1984 Apple Macintosh, IBM PC/AT
> >
> > and Amstrad's absolutely brilliant CPC 464. :-)
> 
> The only latecommer that was an success.
> 
> 
> One still missing: the BBC. Anyone have the date for that one? Lisard?
> 

Copyright dates were 1981 for the model A and 1982 for the model B.
Almost all beebs were in practice the model B.  This had twice as much
memory (32K RAM, but later you could fit non-standard addons for
another 16K "shadow" RAM (occupied same addresses as screen memory)
and several extra ROM extensions, which sometimes were actually also
RAM), and I think a slightly better BASIC.  Afterwards (sorry, no
dates) came the Electron, a stripped-down version, then the BBC Master
series (came in a case like the beeb's, but hunchbacked), which I
think was Acorn's last 6502 (65C02) machine.

And playing Elite was nicer than on a Commodore.

-- 
Ariel Scolnicov       /---------------\    "GCAAGAATTGAACTGTAG"
Compugen Ltd.         |Join the Dark  |    Tel: +972-2-6795059 (Jerusalem)
17 Hamacabim St.      |Side! Just Say:|    Tel: +972-3-9348482 (Main office)
Petakh-Tikva, 49220   |  "Yes, but..."|    Fax: +972-3-9348489
ISRAEL                \---------------/    ariels@compugen.co.il

######

From: scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM (Scott Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 30 Nov 1998 19:10:03 GMT
Organization: LGP21 Users Group
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In article fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> writes:
>scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM (Scott Davidson) writes:
>>
>> 1977 according to a 2600 emulator home page I just found.  Our first was
>> in 1981 (actually the Sears relabel) - so I'm surprised it was out
>> so long before that.
>
>Where? URL.
>

Sorry.  URL is http://www.v-champion.com/atari.html

I searched on Atari 2600 and found lots of stuff.  

Someday I need to download an emulator and relive the glory days of old.

Scott

Replace nospam with sun to email me.

>
>--
>Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
>neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
>"No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson

######

From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 30 Nov 1998 21:31:00 GMT
Organization: Tufts University
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Scott Davidson (scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM) wrote:
: Someday I need to download an emulator and relive the glory days of old.

: Scott

Do it soon, there's a crackdown underway...

--
Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com
"Fear is the lock, and laughter the key to your heart."
    -Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young      

######

Message-ID: <36623832.137E@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:17:06 -0600
From: David K Cornutt <cornutt@hiwaay.net>
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Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
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Tim McCaffrey wrote:
> F8      (Atari game console?)

Nope.  This was an 8-bit processor from Fairchild.  It was
the first ever 8-bit single-chip CPU; Fairchild allegedly had
it up and running as early as 1970.  It was the basis of a
game system that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet,
the Fairchild Channel F (circa 1973), which was I think the
first color system on the market.  Now this was really a stretch
because Fairchild was an aerospace contractor and was not even
remotely connected to the entertainment biz, and they didn't
have a clue what they were doing in the home market, but in those
days neither did anyone else.  I still have a Channel F and although
it's been up in the attic a while now, it still worked the
last time I powered it up several years ago.  It had these
wonderful 8-degree-of-freedom hand controllers (which unfortunately
had fragile wiring; I've got to re-cable mine someday).
Fairchild had about 20 game carts available and there were
also a few games built into the console.  Graphics were
still pretty crude in those days, but an improvement over
the Pong machines.  They didn't sell that well, unfortunately.
Maybe it was just a price thing, or maybe people were a bit
intimidated by the rather substantial-looking console
(remember, in those days few people owned anything that even
remotely resembled a computer).  Plus the mid-70s were a bad
economic time in general.

Fairchild never figured out what to do with the F8.  In 
addition to the Channel F, they used the processor in some
NASA and military projects, but as far as I know there was
never a microcomputer built around it, or any support circuits
offered, or even a defined bus.  They had the first really
practical micro in their hands, and they never took advantage
of it.  Would that the Xerox PARC people were paying attention...

-- 
David K. Cornutt, Residentially Engineered, Huntsville, AL
Solving the Eternal Question: "Who is Kimberly Morris, and how
did she get her own exit on Interstate 65?"

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: "Ralph Wade Phillips" <ralphp@techie.com>
Subject: Re: opcodes for Zilog 8800/Intel 8080
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:58:36 GMT
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Hi, William!

William Hamblen wrote in message <365b7e1c.5616325@news.nashville.com>...
>On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:00:16 -0000, "Andrew Cadley"
><a.p.cadley@uea.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>At 4Mhz you'll find the Z80 is nearly twice as fast as the 1Mhz 6502
>>routine. There is even a Z80 stack based version which is capable of doing
>>it in LESS CYCLES than the 6502 version. This is a classic example of
where
>>the Z80 is *significantly* faster.
>
>4 MHz was the "fast" Z80A.  The "normal" Z80 ticked over at 2.5 MHz.
>An instruction fetch took 4 clocks and other memory references took 3.
>So a 2.5 MHz Z80 was roughly equivalent to a 1 MHz 6800 or 6502.
>A Z80A would be like a 68B00 (2 MHz clock).  I don't recall the part
>number for a 2 Mhz 6502.


        6502B, IIRC.  The 65C02 was the CMOS 2MHz version, with the extended
instruction set (again, IIRC from my Apple ][ Service Center days.  ORAM
failures may have occured ... )

>
>The big advantage of the MOS Technology 6502 back in 1975 was that it
>was a lot cheaper than the parts produced by the other manufacturers.
>That was important for garage inventors.

        I remember reading an article where Woz mentioned that the main
reason for the Apple and the Apple ][ using a 6502 was that the 6800 was
still $400 in singles, the 8080 was $495 in singles, and the 6502 was under
$10 in singles ...  You can put in a HELL of a lot of support TTL for that
difference!

        Actually, I THINK it was the 6500 that was $10 - a pin compatible to
the 6800, which wasn't made very long (the 6502 wasn't pin compatible to
forstall a lawsuit from Motorola, IIRC.)

        RwP

######

From: Michael Kircher <kircher@jupiter.ph-cip.uni-koeln.de>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: opcodes for Zilog 8800/Intel 8080
Date: 30 Nov 1998 15:01:09 +0100
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Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> writes:

> Quarz 14.31818|17.724472 divided 1:18|1:14 (74LS193+flipflop) goes to
> PLL (MC4044). Other input is from an PLL controlled VCO divided 1:8
> (6567|6565, the VIC chip). VCO is used for pixel clock, which is 8
> times CPU clock (1.0227|0.985248).
> 
> After this you then get the problem that the VIC wants for every 8
> pixels 1 byte character number and 1 byte pixel pattern = 80 bytes
> from DRAM (plus 40 nibbles color number over separate bus from an 2114).

The character numbers were only read in the first raster of the
respective line, leading to a dead stop of the CPU for only
40*25 cycles per frame. In the following 7 rasters the VIC used
something like a cache => 1000 * 60|50 = 60000|50000 cps.

> That gives 1.0227|0.985248 - 0.48|0.40 = 0.54|0.58 MHz effective clock.

My correction gives 1.0227|0.985248 - 0.06|0.05 = 0.9627|0.935248
effective clock.

> Sprites costed an additional 21*4 clocks per frame and per sprite.

21*3 clocks as sprites were fixed 24 pixels (3 Bytes) width.

> Then there is the normal DRAM refresh, also done by the VIC.

In fact the bus had 2MBytes/sec bandwidth, used by the VIC to
read the character patterns every other cycle, with said exception
above. However the CPU was unable to use the free cycles in the border.

To give the VIC priority for memory accesss was a far better solution
than some Sinclair clones employed to resolve bus contention: In some
cases a busy CPU could lead to "snow" on the screen :).

Greetings,

  Michael

######

From: Simon <s.j.harris@ic.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: opcodes for Zilog 8800/Intel 8080
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:44:54 +0000
Organization: Imperial College
Lines: 48
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Ralph Wade Phillips wrote:
> 
> Hi, William!
> 
> William Hamblen wrote in message <365b7e1c.5616325@news.nashville.com>...
> >
> >...
> >A Z80A would be like a 68B00 (2 MHz clock).  I don't recall the part
> >number for a 2 Mhz 6502.
> 
>         6502B, IIRC.  The 65C02 was the CMOS 2MHz version, with the extended
> instruction set (again, IIRC from my Apple ][ Service Center days.  ORAM
> failures may have occured ... )
> 
6502A was the 2MHz part. Although my plain 1MHz 6502 ran quite happily
at 2MHz (some of my 650ns 2114s couldn't cope with 2MHz though!). The
CMOS 65C02 range ran from 1 to 4 MHz with part numbers 65C02P1 ...
65C02P4.
The CMOS parts, I found were more speed critical, and the 65C02P1 I had
would not run at 2MHz.

> >
> >The big advantage of the MOS Technology 6502 back in 1975 was that it
> >was a lot cheaper than the parts produced by the other manufacturers.
> >That was important for garage inventors.
> 
>         I remember reading an article where Woz mentioned that the main
> reason for the Apple and the Apple ][ using a 6502 was that the 6800 was
> still $400 in singles, the 8080 was $495 in singles, and the 6502 was under
> $10 in singles ...  You can put in a HELL of a lot of support TTL for that
> difference!
> 
>         Actually, I THINK it was the 6500 that was $10 - a pin compatible to
> the 6800, which wasn't made very long (the 6502 wasn't pin compatible to
> forstall a lawsuit from Motorola, IIRC.)
> 
>         RwP

Even so, the 6502 incompatibilities were kept to the region around the
clock generator, so it would still have been possible to make a small
6502 daughterboard that plugged into a 6800 socket, and passed data,
address, interrupts, etc. through while doing its own clock generation 
(6502 clock generators were simpler than the 6800 IIRC). Such a pity the
6809 pins were skewed the way they were wrt to the 6800, making such a 
plug-in replacement so much more awkward. Pity too, that some 6809
instructions take so long!

Simon.

######

From: Kin Hoong CHUNG <khchung@maths.unsw.edu.au>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 1 Dec 1998 04:16:47 GMT
Organization: University of New South Wales
Lines: 19
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Scott Davidson <scottdav@Eng.nospam.COM> wrote:
: In article 1uu@canyon.sr.hp.com, joewest@sr.hp.com (Joe West) writes:
:>
:>I recall playing a port of this game at the UC Berkeley campus, running on an
:>IBM 1620 (?) in the basement of some building (physics?).  There it was 
:>called "spacewar", had a vector display that had been hacked onto the 1620.  

: Spacewar had been around for a while before Bushnell did it.  It was first
: developed on the MIT PDP-1 (serial #2, #1 was at Harvard) long before my time.

: I was never aware it had been ported to a 1620 though.  Someone here mentioned
: trying to restore one - I wonder if the game is still available?

Somebody has apparently done some research into its history, see
http://ars-www.uchicago.edu/~eric/lore/spacewar/spacewar.html

Cheers,

Kin Hoong

######

From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (
Date: 1 Dec 1998 15:52:00 GMT
Organization: Tufts University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <7413b0$c22$2@news3.tufts.edu>
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Kin Hoong CHUNG (khchung@maths.unsw.edu.au) wrote:
: Somebody has apparently done some research into its history, see
: http://ars-www.uchicago.edu/~eric/lore/spacewar/spacewar.html

Interesting.
I didn't realize that that funky round screen was pixel, not vector based.
--
Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com
Morons and fools lie down beside me./This is stranger than i've ever known.
Flights of fancy leave every hour./The hint was caught but never quite thrown.

######

From: jtkare@ibm.net (Jordin Kare)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:11:29 -0800
Organization: Sirius Connections
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In article <36623832.137E@hiwaay.net>, David K Cornutt
<cornutt@hiwaay.net> wrote:

> Tim McCaffrey wrote:
> > F8      (Atari game console?)
> 
> Nope.  This was an 8-bit processor from Fairchild.  It was
> the first ever 8-bit single-chip CPU; Fairchild allegedly had
> it up and running as early as 1970.  ...

> Fairchild never figured out what to do with the F8.  In 
> addition to the Channel F, they used the processor in some
> NASA and military projects, but as far as I know there was
> never a microcomputer built around it, ...

Oh, yes, there was... 

I was an electronics-hacking undergraduate at MIT 1974-78.  The
local-to-campus parts store was Eli Heffron's Sons ("Heffrons" or
"Eli's").  They had a "junk" section full of all sorts of surplus
hardware, mostly mainframe/minicomputer stuff, like the MITE airborne
teletype that was the first printer I ever owned.  They also had a
"new/new surplus" section for parts like LED's, IC's (7400 series TTL was
all the rage) and transistors.  Sometimes they sold kits for things like
digital clocks.

Toward the end of my time there, everyone and their brother was trying to
sell "single board computers" (SBC's) or "microprocessor demonstration
kits" or what have you; typically a 4 x 6 inch board with a CPU, sockets
for ROM and a little RAM, maybe a serial port or some LED displays, and an
edge connector for some nonstandard or semi-standard bus.  6800's were
popular, as were 6502's, RCA 1802's, and even National SC/MP's (8080's
needed too much support circuitry).  But Eli's just HAD to be different,
and their SBC was based on the F8.  It was the only F8-based computer I
ever saw.  Don't know if it was their own design or something offered by
Fairchild or a second source, but it was their one and only microcomputer.

I was in Eli's when an apparently-clueless microprocessor newbie (although
we would have used different slang) started asking one of the Heffron
brothers about buying a computer.  They of course offered him their F8
card.  He was obviously thinking seriously about buying it, but it was a
non-trivial purchase for a poor college student (something like $149, as I
recall, equivalent to $300 or more today, for something that was basically
a toy) so he stepped away for a few minutes to look at other equipment.  I
very quietly sidled up to him and explained gently that the F8 was a
virtual orphan, and that if he didn't have a specific need for it, he
might do better getting something with a little more support and a larger
user community.

So what does he do?  Walks straight back to the salesman (and part-owner
of the store) he'd been talking to, points at me, and says loudly, "HE
says I shouldn't buy your computer 'cause it's not a good one" or words to
that effect. 

Earned me one of the dirtiest looks I've ever gotten....

Jordin (as F8 would have it) Kare

######

From: Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:16:56 -0600
Organization: Tapestry Software
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Most F8's are more commonly known as Baldwin Organs!

######

From: kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Followup-To: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Date: 1 Dec 1998 15:47:11 GMT
Organization: Tufts University
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Jordin Kare (jtkare@ibm.net) wrote:
: I was in Eli's when an apparently-clueless microprocessor newbie (although
: we would have used different slang) 

In an alt.folklore vein, what slang *would* you have used?
Or is it just on the unprintable side of today's slang?

--
Kirk Israel - kisrael@cs.tufts.edu - http://www.alienbill.com
Morons and fools lie down beside me./This is stranger than i've ever known.
Flights of fancy leave every hour./The hint was caught but never quite thrown.

######

From: genew@vip.net (Gene Wirchenko)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:33:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
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Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net> wrote:

>Most F8's are more commonly known as Baldwin Organs!

     A little more detail would be nice...

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
     I have preferences.
     You have biases.
     He/She has prejudices.

######

From: jtkare@ibm.net (Jordin Kare)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:03:37 -0800
Organization: Sirius Connections
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In article <74131v$c22$1@news3.tufts.edu>, kisrael@allegro.cs.tufts.edu
(Kirk Is) wrote:

> Jordin Kare (jtkare@ibm.net) wrote:
> : I was in Eli's when an apparently-clueless microprocessor newbie (although
> : we would have used different slang) 
> 
> In an alt.folklore vein, what slang *would* you have used?
> Or is it just on the unprintable side of today's slang?

Probably something involving "gnurd" and (especially after his comment to
the salesfolk) asbestos corks.

Jordin Kare

######

From: Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 03:37:44 -0600
Organization: Tapestry Software
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Message-ID: <36650A68.F0600BC8@flash.net>
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Like what details?

Organ - a mucical instrument with a kinda piano like keyboard 
and lot's of voices.

Baldwin - like manufactures the above musical instrument.
(and other really cool stuff)

Manufactures said organs in a factory.

Factory is in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Pays Top-o-the-line techies a full $5/hour for trouble shooting 
new organ boards.

And tha's FANTASTIC money in Fayetteville, Ark.


BTW, this was years ago, but, as I recall, it used the entire
F8 chipset.  With all the audio stuff, the PC board is something
like 3 FEET by 4 FEET in size!

Biggest single chip 'puter I ever did see!

Lambo


Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> 
> Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net> wrote:
> 
> >Most F8's are more commonly known as Baldwin Organs!
> 
>      A little more detail would be nice...
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko
> 
> Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
>      I have preferences.
>      You have biases.
>      He/She has prejudices.

######

From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Followup-To: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Date: 3 Dec 1998 16:43:28 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Lines: 16
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Martin Ibert (martin@ibert.com) wrote:
: On 23 Nov 1998 23:04:02 +0100, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
: wrote:

: >Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.

: Do you feel things have changed in this regard in the intervening
: years? At all?

These days they also want a web browser.

--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
     "There is no national 'ism'. There is no sole religion. These are
   ideas of the past, they don't work here anymore." -Poi Dog Pondering
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx

######

From: cpierce1@mail.ford.com (Clinton Pierce)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:38:02 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Company
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[Courtesy CC sent to poster in E-Mail]

On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:17:06 -0600, David K Cornutt <cornutt@hiwaay.net>
wrote:
>Nope.  This was an 8-bit processor from Fairchild.  It was
>the first ever 8-bit single-chip CPU; Fairchild allegedly had
>it up and running as early as 1970.  It was the basis of a
>game system that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet,
>the Fairchild Channel F (circa 1973), which was I think the
>first color system on the market.  Now this was really a stretch
>because Fairchild was an aerospace contractor and was not even
>remotely connected to the entertainment biz, and they didn't
>have a clue what they were doing in the home market, but in those
>days neither did anyone else.  I still have a Channel F and although
>it's been up in the attic a while now, it still worked the
>last time I powered it up several years ago.  It had these
>wonderful 8-degree-of-freedom hand controllers (which unfortunately
>had fragile wiring; I've got to re-cable mine someday).

8-degree?  I thought it was more...effectively: N,S,E,W,NE,SE,NW,SW 
and then turn (twist) clockwise, counter-clockwise, pull up, push down.
Almost any two of these could be done at once.  (Twist clockwise while
pushing down.)  Later models had a pushbutton on the front of the
controller to simulate "push down".

Nintendo control pads are more robust, but not nearly as much fun.

The wiring and contacts were brittle.  My parents still have theirs,
about 12 of those bright yellow carts and they still work.  It's a
project of mine, when I get time, to rewire those silly controllers.

>Fairchild had about 20 game carts available and there were
>also a few games built into the console.

The built-ins on the earlier models were, Pong, Tank and Hockey (pong
with barriers, and moveable paddles).  My favorite games were blackjack,
bowling, and a space shoot-em-up...star command (?).  I also seem to
remember a "doodle" program, but I'm not sure if that was built-in or on
a cart.  Nice display stuff, for a mid-70's home game machine.

I wasted a LOT of time in front of those games in my youth.

######

From: fms@cs.umd.edu (Marat Fayzullin)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 4 Dec 1998 00:13:32 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
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Tom Harrington (tph@longhorn.uucp) wrote:
: Martin Ibert (martin@ibert.com) wrote:
: : On 23 Nov 1998 23:04:02 +0100, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
: : wrote:
: : >Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.
: : Do you feel things have changed in this regard in the intervening
: : years? At all?
: These days they also want a web browser.

And an MS Word. *Not* a word processor, but specifically MS Word.


Marat, who was once told by a computer support "specialist" that Word
Perfect 5.1 is an operating system for IBM PC.

######

From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 4 Dec 1998 22:04:16 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering
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In article <7479fc$4vh$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>,
Marat Fayzullin <fms@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>Tom Harrington (tph@longhorn.uucp) wrote:
>: Martin Ibert (martin@ibert.com) wrote:
>: : On 23 Nov 1998 23:04:02 +0100, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>: : wrote:
>: : >Most people did not want to program after all. They just wanted games.
>: : Do you feel things have changed in this regard in the intervening
>: : years? At all?
>: These days they also want a web browser.
>And an MS Word. *Not* a word processor, but specifically MS Word.
>Marat, who was once told by a computer support "specialist" that Word
>Perfect 5.1 is an operating system for IBM PC.

I thought it was standard practice for DOS programs to bring along
their own operating systems (disk I/O, overlay management, etc.) if
they wanted to get anything done.  Hey, B.Y.O.S.!

On a related note, an OS friend of mine (Ph.D. in real-time operating
systems) once told me that he used to love MS-LOSS.  It was so easy to
blow the puppy away and leave his own program to run on the bare metal!

-- 
Sergej Roytman

######

From: Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:13:43 -0600
Organization: Earth
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> I thought it was standard practice for DOS programs to bring along
> their own operating systems (disk I/O, overlay management, etc.) if
> they wanted to get anything done.  Hey, B.Y.O.S.!

Pure windows hype.

The only real problem with DOS was the serial port drivers, 
which couldn't run above 1200 baud.

Now if you are writing GAME code, the first thing you do is 
blow off the OS to gain memory and performance.
But you'd usually wind up stealing the BIOS code to do 
'computer oriented' stuff - like reading the keyboard, or 
accessing disk files.

######

From: lisard@zetnet.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 5 Dec 1998 01:43:56 GMT
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On 1998-12-04 ftit@engin.umich.edu(SergejRoytman) said:
   :I thought it was standard practice for DOS programs to bring along
   :their own operating systems (disk I/O, overlay management, etc.) if
   :they wanted to get anything done.  Hey, B.Y.O.S.!

Well, the file system support isn't too bad in MS-DOS (even though there
are actually at least 2 distinct methods of file access, and at least 2
subtly different formats, available - that surely needs rationalising).
It's just *everything* else that's missing. The memory management is
actually worse than you'd find in most C libraries, and processes?
forget it.

   :On a related note, an OS friend of mine (Ph.D. in real-time
   :operating systems) once told me that he used to love MS-LOSS.  It
   :was so easy to blow the puppy away and leave his own program to run
   :on the bare metal!

Seconded. It's also so simple to understand that you really don't need
to try so hard.
--
Communa (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) -- you know soft spoken changes nothing

######

From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 5 Dec 1998 06:40:28 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering
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In article <3668C107.843A67AC@flash.net>,
Richard Lamb  <lamb01@flash.net> wrote:
>> I thought it was standard practice for DOS programs to bring along
>> their own operating systems (disk I/O, overlay management, etc.) if
>> they wanted to get anything done.  Hey, B.Y.O.S.!
>Pure windows hype.

Are you accusing me of Windoze advocacy?  Of believing that Windoze is
anything other than a DOS program?  A badly-written one?

If any of these things is true, please accept my apologies for giving
you the wrong impression.

>The only real problem with DOS was the serial port drivers, 
>which couldn't run above 1200 baud.

The only real problem with DOS is that it is a kludged-up program
loader that grew out of control.  I guess it's an inevitable feature of
systems with long lifetimes that design decisions made at the start of
their lives end up stcking around.  The QWERTY keyboard that many of us
use is an obvious example.

If a system is designed well, it has the hooks and implicit expansion
paths that will let it grow without the implementors painting
themselves into corners.  Features of Multics's design have lived for
30 years as Unix, and have not degenerated into a mess of uglier hacks
built on hacks which are merely ugly.

It is quite obvious that DOS has never been designed well.  It's shown
its origins as throwaway code from the beginning.  I don't like it, or
its derivatives, or not having any choice about using them.

(Wow! re-reading that, I feel as if I should be wiping copious amounts
of foam from the corners of my mouth!  Well, anyway, I'm not a Windoze
fan.  8-#~ (raving, mouth-foaming emoticon))

-- 
Sergej Roytman

######

From: fleetvis@ricochet.net (phil)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:54:42 GMT
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On 5 Dec 1998 06:40:28 GMT, ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
wrote:

i did snippage. Attribution fuck-up occurred prior to this.

>In article <3668C107.843A67AC@flash.net>,
>Richard Lamb  <lamb01@flash.net> wrote:
>>> I thought it was standard practice for DOS programs to bring along
>>> their own operating systems (disk I/O, overlay management, etc.) if
>>> they wanted to get anything done.  Hey, B.Y.O.S.!
>>Pure windows hype.
<snip>
>>The only real problem with DOS was the serial port drivers, 
>>which couldn't run above 1200 baud.
<snip>
>The only real problem with DOS is that it is a kludged-up program
<snip>
>If a system is designed well, it has the hooks and implicit expansion
>paths that will let it grow without the implementors painting
<snip>

>It is quite obvious that DOS has never been designed well.  It's shown
<snip>

Yes, the only problem with DOS is the serial port drivers. They cannot
run reliably above 1200 baud and they're in the BIOS anyway, 

You have to look at the history. DOS evolved effectively from CP/M.
CP/M was developed on and for an 8-bit processor. DOS was first
available on an 8-bit bus version of a 16-bit processor.  This is not
a bad thing. I wonder how many (or maybe how few) people really
understand what it means to develop in such an environment.
There were no debug tools unless you built them yourself. There was
essentially nothing. Location 0. That was it. I find it extremely
amusing to observe the pissy nature of Unix wannabees that would be
completely lost in such a demanding environment.

phil.

######

From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:52:23 -0500
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
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Sergej Roytman wrote:
> The only real problem with DOS is that it is a kludged-up program
> loader that grew out of control.

While I am not fan of Microsoft or MS-DOS, I think that DOS is often
unfairly maligned. Version 3.3 was a fine program loader and boot
monitor. Version 6.whatever was also reasonable -- though it had
grown a bit too much (IMHO an OS distribution aught to fit on one
removable media unit) -- in that it still did the job of booting
the machine and loading programs quite well. The real problem comes
when you add that graphical shell into the mix, yech!

> I guess it's an inevitable feature of systems with long lifetimes
> that design decisions made at the start of their lives end up
> stcking around.  The QWERTY keyboard that many of us use is an
> obvious example.

I have long said that MS should have dropped support for 8086 when
the 386 came out. They could have made a clean break with most of
thier mistakes at that point, like finally eliminating the FCB
calls, dumping .COM files, killing the segmented memory space,
adding long file names, and putting in real multitasking for .EXE
files. They didn't do this and we have all suffered for their lack
of vision. This mistake, of course, is not unique to Microsoft.

> If a system is designed well, it has the hooks and implicit
> expansion paths that will let it grow without the implementors
> painting themselves into corners.  Features of Multics's design
> have lived for 30 years as Unix, and have not degenerated into
> a mess of uglier hacks built on hacks which are merely ugly.

Unix has its share of ugly hacks, like the primitive access
control system, or the complete lack of real file locking
primitives. Much about Unix is still good, but that may have
more to do with the free market in which Unix was sold than
with the initial design. Much lamentation has been voiced
over the years that there was not One True Unix, but this has
allowed Unix to grow and evolve over the years, and the bad
designs were able to die, since no one company had control.

> It is quite obvious that DOS has never been designed well. 
> It's shown its origins as throwaway code from the beginning. 
> I don't like it, or its derivatives, or not having any choice
> about using them.

While I agree with you in not liking DOS or its derivatives, I
have, oddly, never felt too much compulsion to use them outside
of the workplace, where DOS was often part of the requirements
set down by the client, rather than by my employer. (we were
willing to build any system a client would pay us for. The parts
room was a testimony to the companies openness. When we finally
cleaned out the parts room I went home with an 16" Apple monitor
and an old HP unix box)

- Jeff Dutky

######

From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:59:49 -0500
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
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Richard Lamb wrote:
> 
> The only real problem with DOS was the serial port drivers,
> which couldn't run above 1200 baud.
> 

What about the complete lack of device abstraction outside of
mass storage (no printer abstraction, no display abstraction,
etc.) What about the sorry bits of code that passed for video
primitives on the assorted display adapters: anyone who wanted
decent speed out of the display had to write their own driver!

There were MANY problems with DOS if you were trying to use it
as an operating system. If all you wanted to do was push text
around and access disk files, then you were mostly Ok. Mostly.
The minute you wanted to do something more complex, or access
some other devices, you were thrust back into the dark ages of
computing. (you know, when mainframes roamed the earth and all
the cavemen spoke FORTRAN, or <shudder> COBOL)

- Jeff Dutky

######

From: ftit@engin.umich.edu (Sergej Roytman)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: 6 Dec 1998 08:14:05 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan, College of Engineering
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In article <3669C731.2BF1@bellatlantic.net>,
Jeffrey S. Dutky <dutky@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Sergej Roytman wrote:
>> If a system is designed well, it has the hooks and implicit
>> expansion paths that will let it grow without the implementors
>> painting themselves into corners.  Features of Multics's design
>> have lived for 30 years as Unix, and have not degenerated into
>> a mess of uglier hacks built on hacks which are merely ugly.
>Unix has its share of ugly hacks, like the primitive access
>control system, or the complete lack of real file locking
>primitives.

At least there was a reason for these things.  And as time went on and
Unices started living on machines that would have been mainframes a few
years ago, they started adding mainframe-like features---xfs replaced
efs in the filesystem department, f'rinstance.  My point was, that
although Unix has been hacked upon by several generations of
programmers, and despite the fact that said programmers have had all
sorts of goals in mind, the thing has not collapsed under its own
weight yet.  From my small knowledge of Multics and conversations with
a multician friend of mine, I think that Unix owes this to its Multics
roots.  It must have been something to be on Project MAC.

By the way, I believe that the latest version of IRIX has added acls.
And of course afs has had them forever.

>            Much about Unix is still good, but that may have
>more to do with the free market in which Unix was sold than
>with the initial design. Much lamentation has been voiced
>over the years that there was not One True Unix, but this has
>allowed Unix to grow and evolve over the years, and the bad
>designs were able to die, since no one company had control.

Maybe this is what really sets Unix apart from mainframe operating
systems.  I get the feeling that everyone who contributed to a
particular flavor of Unix left the stamp of his or her personality on
some part of it.  Sort of like in "Tron" (remember when that came out?)
each program in the computer had the face of its programmer.  In
comparison, a completely consistent, uniform interface seems a little
cold to me, and I imagine that mainframers have recoiled in horror from
Unix's quirkinesses many times.

>While I agree with you in not liking DOS or its derivatives, I
>have, oddly, never felt too much compulsion to use them outside
>of the workplace

I guess my biggest beef with DOS et al. is that it is quite possible
that I won't have any choice about it in the near future, and that
there have been programs that were written so much better, so many
years before it.  Brought down in my prime by poor taste on the part of
pointy-haired bossen.  O cruel fate!

By the way, I had another look at my rant last night and didn't
recognize myself!  Too much system-calling, C, Tcl, and this
specialized artificial intelligence language used by my advisor and his
buddies at several other universities.  And of course, coffee.  I'm
normally not like that.  Honest.

Oh well, think I'll hack til dawn tonight, just to make up.  Ah, the
wild hedonism of graduate school!

-- 
Sergej Roytman

######

Message-ID: <366A9888.D992C7DC@bellsouth.net>
From: Max F Lang <mflang@bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
References: <73br6u$q1q@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7479fc$4vh$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <749m90$fp@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <3668C107.843A67AC@flash.net> <74akgs$sge@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> <3669C731.2BF1@bellatlantic.net>
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> I have long said that MS should have dropped support for 8086 when
> the 386 came out. They could have made a clean break with most of
> thier mistakes at that point, like finally eliminating the FCB
> calls, dumping .COM files, killing the segmented memory space,
> adding long file names, and putting in real multitasking for .EXE
> files. They didn't do this and we have all suffered for their lack
> of vision. This mistake, of course, is not unique to Microsoft.
>
In other words, -> OS/2 <-. There it was, years before Win95/WinNT, and
IBM fucked it up by insisting on the support of their brain-dead 286
based PS/2's. Sixteen bits, when we should have been on a clean break
right into a 32 bitOS running on a 32 bit processor. And left 286s and
16 bit OS's die a quick death. Microsoft actually had the right idea at
the right time, and my feeling is that they let themselves be bullied
(which I know is an interesting idea considering today's tech
headlines). Oh well, at least now we have Linus and the FreeBSD guys to
thank for giving us something even better.

MFLang, an old OS/2 hacker...

######

From: Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:48:20 -0600
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Jeez, I gotta remember where I am around here!
Too many people who really DO know what they're doing...
So let me try to say SOMETHING intelligent (please God!)

Well, first, what we call DOS was really never intended for
mass circulation.  Tim Patterson, of Seattle Computer Something
cobbled it up so they'd have some way to test the new 80x86
hardware they built.  So I'm gonna take a stand that 'He Done Good'!
Even as a port from CP/M that's no small job (or task or proceedure,
depending on your compiler).

Hi Sergej.  No prob.  (Wow - I like the new emoticon)

######

From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 02:08:54 -0500
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Richard Lamb wrote:
> Jeez, I gotta remember where I am around here!
> Too many people who really DO know what they're doing...
> So let me try to say SOMETHING intelligent (please God!)
> 
> Well, first, what we call DOS was really never intended for
> mass circulation.  Tim Patterson, of Seattle Computer Something
> cobbled it up so they'd have some way to test the new 80x86
> hardware they built.  So I'm gonna take a stand that 'He Done
> Good'! Even as a port from CP/M that's no small job (or task
> or proceedure, depending on your compiler).

I must admit that, in some twisted way, I actually *liked* MS-DOS
3.3. It was small, simple, and reasonably fast (within the bounds
of its limited abilities) If you wanted to write a program that
really banged on the hardware, DOS was your man!

(I was able to make, using DOS, a 24 hour, failure resistant,
process monitoring system without even using a UPS.I just put
the whole thing on a bootable floppy, put the monitor program in
the AUTOEXEC.BAT, added the I/O card and a watchdog timer and let
the thing run. If anything hung, or power went out, it would just
restart and boot off the disk when power came back, and off it
would go. Not so good in a blackout, but otherwise quite nice. It
would run for months without any problems. No hard drive to fail,
no need for remote administration, just call in and DL the data.
All on a lowly PC-XT)

- Jeff Dutky

######

From: "Donald Tees" <donald@willmack.com>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 05:21:34 -0500
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Richard Lamb wrote in message <366B5E14.9253FD0A@flash.net>...
>Jeez, I gotta remember where I am around here!
>Too many people who really DO know what they're doing...
>So let me try to say SOMETHING intelligent (please God!)
>
>Well, first, what we call DOS was really never intended for
>mass circulation.  Tim Patterson, of Seattle Computer Something
>cobbled it up so they'd have some way to test the new 80x86
>hardware they built.  So I'm gonna take a stand that 'He Done Good'!
>Even as a port from CP/M that's no small job (or task or proceedure,
>depending on your compiler).


No small job?  The calls changed from using AL as the calling
register to using AH as the calling register.  Aside from that,
it is a direct copy, byte for byte. There is not a single call that
changed.

######

From: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:27:30 +0100
Organization: [Posted via] Interactive Networx
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Sergej Roytman <ftit@engin.umich.edu> wrote:

> On a related note, an OS friend of mine (Ph.D. in real-time operating
> systems) once told me that he used to love MS-LOSS.  It was so easy to
> blow the puppy away and leave his own program to run on the bare metal!

A PC hacker friend of mine once said that MS-DOS's biggest disadvantage
was that it did not support anything. On the other hand, he said, its
biggest advantage was that it did not prevent anything.

[I think we can take this out of alt.tv.simpsons. Followup-To set
accordingly.]

-- 
Juergen Nickelsen

######

From: Richard Lamb <lamb01@flash.net>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:39:39 -0600
Organization: Earth
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Say WHAT?

Donald Tees wrote:
> 
> Richard Lamb wrote in message <366B5E14.9253FD0A@flash.net>...
> >Jeez, I gotta remember where I am around here!
> >Too many people who really DO know what they're doing...
> >So let me try to say SOMETHING intelligent (please God!)
> >
> >Well, first, what we call DOS was really never intended for
> >mass circulation.  Tim Patterson, of Seattle Computer Something
> >cobbled it up so they'd have some way to test the new 80x86
> >hardware they built.  So I'm gonna take a stand that 'He Done Good'!
> >Even as a port from CP/M that's no small job (or task or proceedure,
> >depending on your compiler).
> 
> No small job?  The calls changed from using AL as the calling
> register to using AH as the calling register.  Aside from that,
> it is a direct copy, byte for byte. There is not a single call that
> changed.

######

From: martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:06:28 GMT
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On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:52:23 -0500, "Jeffrey S. Dutky"
<dutky@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Unix has its share of ugly hacks, like the primitive access
>control system,

You mis-slept "elegant".

I have been fighting ACL-based systems (like NT's) long enough to know
that for 99,99999999999% of real-world applications, they suck rocks.
Big ones.

>or the complete lack of real file locking
>primitives.

Well, the way they added those later is one example of a really ugly
hack. I have to admit that.

>and the bad
>designs were able to die, since no one company had control.

Very interesting thought, that.

######

From: fleetvis@ricochet.net (phil)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.simpsons,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Natural Selection and Game Systems, (was Coleco)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:08:30 GMT
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On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:06:28 GMT, martin@ibert.com (Martin Ibert)
wrote:

>
>>or the complete lack of real file locking
>>primitives.
>
>Well, the way they added those later is one example of a really ugly
>hack. I have to admit that.
>
Can you expand on the details? What makes file locking a hack in Unix?


phil.